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this idea of of disk I distributed idea
suppression complex yeah is that what's
bringing the e laws of the world down
you know so funny it's like he's asking
Joe Rogan like is that a joint you know
it's like well what will happen if I
smoke it what will happen to the stock
price what will happen if I scratch
myself in public what will happen if I
say what I think about Thailand or kovat
or who knows what and everybody's like
don't say that say this go do this go do
that well it's crazy-making it's
absolutely crazy making and if you think
about what we put through people through
we need to get people who can use fu
money the fu money they need to insulate
themselves from all of the people who
know better because the my nightmare is
is that why did we only get one ilan
what if we were supposed to have
thousands and thousands of yuan and the
weird thing is like this is all that
remains
you're looking at like obi-wan and Yoda
and it's like this is the only this is
all that's left after X order 66 has
been executed and that's the thing
that's really upsetting to me is we used
we used to have Ilan's five deep and
then we could talk about Elon in the
context of his cohort but this is like
if you were to see a giraffe in the
Arctic with no trees around you'd think
why the long neck what a strange sight
you know how do we get more lawns how do
we change things so I think the useful
so we know MIT yeah and Harvard so can
maybe returning to our previous
conversation my sense is that the laws
of the world are supposed to come from
MIT in Harvard right and how do you
change let's think of one that MIT sort
of killed have any names in mind Aaron
Schwartz leaps to my mind yeah okay are
we MIT supposed to shield the Aaron
Schwartz's
from I don't know journal publishers or
are we supposed to help the journal
publishers so that we can throw 35-year
sentences in his face or whatever it is
that we did that depressed him okay so
here's my point yeah I want MIT to go
back to being the home of Aaron Schwartz
and if you want to send Aaron Schwartz
to a state where he's looking at 35
years in prison or something like that
you are my sworn enemy
you are not MIT yeah you are the
traitorous irresponsible middlebrow
pencil-pushing green eyeshade fool that
needs to not be in the seat at the
presidency of MIT period the end get the
out of there and let one of our
people sit in that chair and think that
you've articulated is that the people in
those chairs are not the way they are
because they're evil or somehow morally
compromised is that it's just that
that's the distributed nature is that
there's some kind of aspect of the
system there's people who width em
selves to the system they adapt every
instinct and the fact is is that they're
not going to be on Joe Rogan smoking a
blunt let me ask a silly question do you
think institutions generally just tend
to become that no we get some of the
institution's we get Caltech here's what
we're supposed to have we're supposed to
have Caltech we're supposed to have a
reed we're supposed to have Deep Springs
we're supposed to have MIT we're
supposed to have a part of Harvard and
when the sharp elbow crowd comes after
the Scheldt sharp mind crowd we're
supposed to break those sharp elbows and
say don't come around here again so what
are the weapons that the sharp minds are
supposed to use in our modern day so to
reclaim MIT what is the what's the
future are you kidding me first of all
assume that this is being seen at MIT
hey everybody is OK hey everybody try to
remember who you are
you're the guys who put the police car
on top of the great dump you you guys
came up with the great breasts of
knowledge you created a Tetris game in
the green building now what is your
problem
they killed one of your own you should
make their life a living hell
you should be the ones who keep the
mayor memory of Aaron Schwartz alive and
all of those hackers and all of those
mutants you know it's like it's either
our place or it isn't and if we have to
throw 12 more pianos off of the roof
right if Harold Edgerton is taking those
photographs you know with slow mo back
in the 40s
if Noam Chomsky's on your faculty what
the hell is wrong with you kids you are
the most creative and insightful people
and you can't figure out how to defend
Aaron Schwartz that's on you guys so
some of that is giving more power to the
young like you said you know it's a
training towel drop taking power from
the feeble and the middle brow yeah but
how do you what is the mechanism to me I
don't know you you have some 9-volt
batteries no I copper wire I attend to
you have a capacitor I tend to believe
you have to create an alternative and
make the alternative so much better that
it makes MIT absolutely unless they
change and that's what forces change so
as opposed to somehow okay so use
projection mapping what's projection
mapping where you take some complicated
edifice and you map all of its planes
and then you actually project some
unbelievable graphics re skinning a
building let's say at night say okay so
you want to do some graffiti art with
you basically want to hack the system
know what I say look listen to me Lee
yeah we're smarter than they are and
they you know what they say they say
things like I think we need some geeks
get me to phd's right you treat phd's
like that that's a bad move because hd's
are capable
and we act like our job is to peel
grapes for our betters yeah that that's
a strange thing and I you speak about it
very eloquently is how we treat
basically the greatest minds in the
world which is like at at their prime
which is PhD students like that we pay
them nothing we I'm done with it yeah
right we gotta take what's ours
so it's oh yeah take back MIT become
uncover nerble become uncover Noble and
by the way when you become uncover
nerble don't do it by throwing food
don't do it by pouring salt on the lawn
like a jerk
do it through brilliance because what
you Caltech and MIT can do and maybe
Rensselaer Polytechnic or Worcester
politic I don't know Lehigh goddamnit
what's wrong with you technical people
you act like you're a servant class it's
unclear to me how you reclaim it except
with brilliance like you said but to me
that the way you were claiming was
brilliance the Goron system Aaron
Schwartz came from the Elon Musk class
what you guys gonna do about it
right there super capable people need to
flex need to be individual they need to
stop giving away all their power to you
know is like Geist or a community or
this or that you're not you're not
indoor cats
you're outdoor cats go be outdoor cat do
you think we're gonna see this this kind
of asking me you know before like what
about the world war two generation what
I'm trying to say is that there's a
technical revolt coming here's you want
to talk about that I'm trying to lead it
yeah I'm trying to see no you're not
trying I'm trying to get a blueprint
here alright Lex
yeah how angry are you about our country
pretending that you and I can't actually
do technical subjects so that they need
an army of kids coming in from four
countries in Asia it's not about the
four countries in Asia it's not about
those kids
it's about lying about us that we're
don't care enough about science and
technology that we're incapable of it as
if we don't have Chinese and Russians
and Koreans and Croatians like we've got
everybody here the only reason
you're looking outside is is that you
want to hire cheap people from the
family business because you don't want
to pass the family business on and you
know what you didn't really build the
family business it's not yours to decide
you the boomers and you the Silent
Generation you did your bit but you also
followed a lot of stuff up and your
custodians you are caretakers you were
supposed to hand something what you did
instead was to gorge yourself on cheap
foreign labor but you then held up as
being much more brilliant than your own
children which was never true but I'm
trying to understand how we create a
better system without anger without
revolution no not not by kissing and
hugs and and but by I mean I don't
understand within MIT what the mechanism
of building a better on my tee is we're
not gonna pay Elsevier Aaron Schwartz
was right JSTOR is an abomination
but why who would then MIT who within
institutions is going to do that when
just like you said the people who are
running the show are more senior and if
Frank will check to speak out so your is
basically individuals that step up I
mean one of the surprising things about
Elon is that one person can inspire so
much he's got academic freedom it just
comes from money I don't agree with that
do you think money okay so yes certainly
sorry an testicle Yuva yes but those are
more important than money right or guts
I I think I do agree with you you speak
about this a lot that because the money
in the academic institutions has been so
constrained that people are misbehaving
in in in horrible yes but I don't think
that if we reverse that and give a huge
amount of money people will also behave
well I think it also takes guts so you
need to get people security security
yeah like you need to know there you
have a job yeah on Monday when on Friday
you say I'm not so sure I really love
diversity and inclusion and somebody's
looking weak what you didn't love
diverse we had a statement
diversity and you wouldn't sign are you
against the inclusion part or are you
against diverse do you just not like
people like you like actually that has
nothing to do with anything you're
making this into something that it isn't
I don't want to sign your goddamn stupid
statement and get out of my lab right
get out of my lab it all begins from the
middle finger get out of my lab the
administrators need to find other work
yeah
listen I agree with you and I I hope to
seek your advice and and wisdom as we
change this because I'd love to see I
will visit you in prison if that's what
you're asking
I have no I think prison is great you
get a lot of reading done and then when
good working out well let me ask the
something I brought up before is the
Nietzsche quote of beware that when
fighting monsters you yourself do not
become a monster for when you gaze long
into the abyss the abyss gazes into you
are you worried that your focus on the
flaws in the system that we've just been
talking about has damaged your mind or
the part of the mind of your mind that's
able to see the beauty in the world in
the system that because you have so
sharply been able to see the flaws in
the system you can no longer step back
and appreciate it speeding look I'm the
one who's trying to get the institutions
to save themselves by getting rid of
their inhabitants believing the
institution like a neutron bomb that
removes the unworkable leadership class
but leaves the structures so I emo so
the leadership classes really the
problem the leadership class is that the
individual like the professors the
individual scholar the professors are
gonna have to go back into training to
remember how to be professors like
people are cowards at the moment because
if they're not cowards they're
unemployed yeah that's one of the
disappointing things I've encountered is
to me tenure they don't nobody has
tenure now
well whether they do or not they
certainly don't have character not the
kind of character and and fortitude that
I was hoping to see to me but they'd be
gone but see you're dreaming about the
people who used to live at MIT you're
dreaming about the previous inhabitants
of your University and if you looked at
somebody like you know Isadora singer is
very old I don't know what state he's in
but that guy was absolutely the real
deal and if you look at Noam Chomsky
tell me that Noam Chomsky has been
muzzled right yeah now what I'm trying
to get at is you're talking about
younger energetic people but those
people like when I say something like
I'm against I'm for word inclusion and
I'm for diversity but I'm against
diversity and inclusion TM like the
movement well I couldn't say that if I
was a professor oh my god he's against
our sacred document okay well in that
kind of a world do you want to know how
many things I don't agree with you want
it like we could go on for days and days
and days all of the nonsense that you've
parroted inside of the institution any
sane person like has no need for it they
have no want or desire do you think you
have to have some patience for nonsense
when many people work together in a
system how long a string theory going on
for and how long have I been patient
okay so you're talking about limit to
patience I'm talking about like 36 years
of modern nonsense and string theory say
you can do like eight to ten years but
not more I can do 40 minutes this is 30
so now over two hours or no but I
appreciate it but it's been 36 years of
nonsense since the anomaly cancellation
in string theory it's like what are you
talking about about patience I mean Lex
you're not even acting like yourself now
at what you're trying to stay in the
system and I'm not sure I'm not I'm
trying to see it
perhaps so so my hope is that the system
just has a few in it which you
highlight and the fundamentals of the
system are broken because if the
fundamentals of the systems are broken
then I just don't see a way for my
teachers to succeed like I don't see how
young people take over MIT I don't see
how by inspiring us you know the great
part about being at MIT like when you
saw that the genius in these pranks the
heart the irreverence yeah it's like
don't do it then we were talking about
Tom Lehrer the last time Tom Lehrer was
as naughty as the day is long agreed
agreed
was he also a genius was he well-spoken
was he highly cultured he was so
talented so intellectual that he could
just make fart jokes morning noon and
night yeah okay well in part the right
to make fart jokes the right to for
example put a functioning phone booth
that was ringing on top of the Great
Dome at MIT has to do with we are such
badasses that we can actually do this
stuff well don't tell me about it
anymore
go break the law go break the law in a
way that inspires us and makes us not
want to prosecute you may break the law
in a way that lets us know that you're
calling us out on our that
you're filled with love and that our
technical talent has not gone to sleep
it's not incapable you know and if the
idea is is that you're gonna dig a moat
around the University and fill it with
tiger sharks that's awesome because I
don't know how you're gonna do it but if
you actually managed to do that I'm not
going to prosecute prosecute you under a
reckless endangerment man that's
beautifully put
I hope those first of all I listen I
hope young people and mighty will take
over in this in this kind of way in the
introduction to your podcast episode on
Jeffrey Epstein you give to me a really
moving story but unfortunately for me to
brief about your experience with a
therapist
and the lasting terror that permeated
your mind can you uh can you go there
can you tell I don't think so I mean I
appreciate what you're saying I said it
obliquely I said enough there are bad
people who cross our paths and the
current vogue is to say oh I'm a
survivor I'm a victim I can do anything
I want this is a broken person and I
don't know why I was sent to a broken
person as a kid and to be honest with
you I also felt like in that story I say
that I was able to say no you know and
this was like the entire weight of
authority and he was misusing his
position and I was also able to say no
what I couldn't say no to was having him
reinf lichte din my life I see you were
sent back yeah second time I tried to
complain about what had happened I tried
to do it in a way that did not
immediately cause horrific consequences
to both this person and myself because I
didn't we don't have the tools to deal
with sexual misbehavior we have nuclear
weapons we don't have any way of saying
this is probably not a good place or a
role for you at this moment as an
authority figure and something needs to
be worked on so in general when we see
somebody who is misbehaving in that way
our immediate instinct is to treat the
person as you know Satan and we
understand why we don't want our
children to be at risk now I personally
believe that I fell down on the job and
did not call out the Jeffrey Epstein
thing early enough because I was
terrified of what Jeffrey Epstein
represents and this recapitulated the
old terror trying to tell the world this
therapist is out of control
and when I said that the world responded
by saying well you have two appointments
booked and you have to go for the second
one so I got reinfected into this office
on this person who was now convinced
that I was about to tear down his career
and his reputation it might have been on
the verge of suicide for all I know I
don't know but he was very very angry
and he was furious with me that I had
breached a sacred confidence of his
office
what kind of ripple effects does that
have has that head to the rest of your
life
the absurdity and the cruelty of that I
mean there's no sense to it well see
this is the thing people don't really
grasp I think there's an academic who I
got to know many years ago named
Jennifer fried who has a theory of
betrayal which she calls institutional
betrayal and her gambit is is that when
you were betrayed by an institution that
is sort of like a fiduciary or a
parental obligation to take care of you
that you find yourself in a far
different situation with respect to
trauma than if you were betrayed by
somebody who's a peer and so I think
that my in my situation I kind of repeat
a particular dynamic with authority I
come in not following all the rules
trying to do some things not trying to
do others blah blah blah and then I get
into a weird relationship with Authority
and so I have more experience with what
I would call institutional betrayal now
the funny part about it is that when you
don't have masks or PPE in a
influenza-like pandemic and you're
missing ICU beds and ventilators that is
ubiquitous you institutional betrayal so
I believe that in a weird way I was very
early the idea of and this is like tough
the really hard concept pervasive or
otherwise Universal institutional
betrayal or all of the institution's you
can count on any hospital to not
charge you properly for where their
services are you can count on no
pharmaceutical company to produce the
drug that will be maximally beneficial
to the people who take it you know that
your financial professionals are not
simply working in your best interest and
that issue had to do with the way in
which growth left of our system so I
think that the weird thing is is that
this first institutional betrayal by a
therapist left me very open to the idea
of okay well maybe the schools are bad
maybe the hospitals are bad maybe the
drug companies are bad maybe our food is
off
maybe our journalists are not serving
journalistic ends and that was what
allowed me to sort of go all the
distance and say huh I wonder if our
problem is that something is causing all
of our sense making institutions to be
off that was the big insight and that
tying that to a single ideology what if
it's just about growth they were all
built on growth and now we've promoted
people who are capable of keeping quiet
that their institutions aren't working
so we've the privileged silent
aristocracy the people who can be
counted upon not to mention a fire when
a raging fire is tearing through a
building but nevertheless it's how big
of a psychological burden is that it's
huge it's terrible I mean rushing it's
it's very it's very comforting to be the
parental I mean I don't know I I
treasure I mean we were just talking
about MIT we can until I can
intellectualize and agree with
everything you're saying but there's a
comfort a warm blanket of being within
the institution and up until him Aaron
Schwartz let's say in other words now if
I look at the provost and the president
as mommy and daddy you did what to my
big brother you did what to our family
you sold us out in which way what
secrets left for China you hired which
workforce you did what to my wages
you took this portion of my grant for
what purpose you just stole my
retirement
were fringy what did you do but can you
still I mean the thing is about this
view you have is it often turns out to
be sadly correct well this is the thing
and but that let me just in this silly
hopeful thing do you still have hope and
institution see you can you win your
cycle psychologically yes I'm referring
not intellectually because you've had to
carry this burden can you still have a
hope like within you Jake that when you
sit a home alone and as opposed to
seeing the darkness within these
institutions seeing a hope well but this
is the thing I want to confront not for
the purpose of a dust-up I believe for
example if you've heard episode 19 that
the best outcome is for Carol Greider to
come forward as we discussed in episode
19 would your brother Brett Weinstein
and say you know what so I screwed up he
did call he did suggest the experiment I
didn't understand that it was his theory
that was producing it maybe I was slow
to grasp it but my bad
and I don't want to pay for this bad
choice on my part let's say for the rest
of my career I want to own up and I want
to help make sure that we do what's
right with what's left and that's one
little case within an institution they
would like to see me I would like to see
MIT very clearly come out and say you
know Margo O'Toole was right when she
said David Baltimore's lab here produced
some stuff that was not reproducible
with Teresa and Minnie shakarez research
I want to see the courageous people I
would like to see Aaron Schwartz wing of
the computer science department yeah
wouldn't know let's think about it yeah
wouldn't that be great if they said you
know an injustice was done and we're
gonna we're gonna write that wrong just
as if this was Alan Turing which I don't
think they've righted that wrong well
then let's have the Turing Schwartz way
to ensure they're starting a new college
of computing it wouldn't be wonderful to
call it the the toyish well I would like
to have the Madame wooing of the physics
department and I'd love to have the Emmy
nerd er statue in front of the math
department I mean like you want to get
excited about actual diversity and
inclusion yeah well let's go with our
absolute best people who never got
theirs because there is structural
bigotry you know but if we don't
actually start celebrating the beautiful
stuff that we're capable of when we're
handed heroes and we fumble them into
the trash what the hell I mean Lex this
is such nonsense
we just pulling our head out you know
the on everyone's cecum should be
tattooed if you can read this you're too
close
beautifully put and I'm a dreamer just
like you so I don't see as much of the
darkness genetically or due to my life
experience but I do share the hope from
my teeth institution that we care a lot
about you both do yeah and Harvard
institution I don't give a damn about
but you do so I love Harvard I'm just
kidding I love Harvard but rude and I
have a very difficult relationship and
part of what you know when you love a
family that isn't working I don't want
to trash I I didn't bring up the name of
the president of MIT during the Aaron
Schwartz period it's not vengeance
I want the rot cleared out I don't need
to go after human beings yeah just like
you said with a disc formulation the
individual human beings aren't don't
necessarily carry them it's those chairs
that are so powerful that in which they
sit
it's the chairs not the human it's not
the humans
you