Kind: captions
Language: en
the following is a conversation with
Eric Weinstein the second time we've
spoken on this podcast he's a
mathematician with the bold and piercing
intelligence unafraid to explore the
biggest questions in the universe and
shine a light on the darkest corners of
our society he is the host of the portal
podcast a part of which he recently
released his 2013 oxford lecture on his
theory of geometric unity that is at the
centre of his lifelong efforts to arrive
at a theory of everything that unifies
the fundamental laws of physics this
conversation was recorded recently in
the time of the coroner virus pandemic
for everyone feeling the medical
psychological and financial burden of
this crisis
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young people around the world and now
here's my car
session with Eric Weinstein
action between World War two and the
crisis we're living through right now
sure the need for collective action
reminding ourselves of the fact that all
of these abstractions like everyone
should just do exactly what he or she
wants to do for himself and leave
everyone else alone none of these
abstractions work in a global crisis and
this is just a reminder that we didn't
somehow put all that behind us when I
hear stories about my grandfather who
was in the army and so the Soviet Union
where most people die when you're in the
army there's a brotherhood that happens
there's a love that happens do you think
that's something we're going to see here
sense or none there I mean what the
Soviet Union went through I mean the
enormity of the war on the Russian
doorstep
this is different what we're going
through now is not we can't talk about
Stalingrad and kovat in the same breath
yet we're not ready and the the sort of
you know that just the sense of like the
Great Patriotic War and the way in which
I was very moved by the Soviet custom of
newlyweds going and visiting war
memorials on their wedding day it's like
the happiest day of your life you have
to say thank you to the people who made
it possible we're not there where we're
just restarting history we you know I've
called this on the Rogen program I
called it the great nap yeah 75 years
with very little by historical standards
and in in terms of really profound
disruption and so when you called the
great nap meaning lack of deep global
tragedy well lack of realized global
tragedy so I think the development for
example of the hydrogen bomb you know
was something that happened during the
great nap and that doesn't mean that
people who lived during that time didn't
feel feared and no anxiety but it was to
say that most of the violent potential
of human species was not realized it was
in the form of potential energy and this
is the thing that I've sort of taken
issue with with the
of Steven Pinker's optimism is that if
you look at they realized kinetic
variables things have been getting much
better for a long time which is the
great nap but it's not as if our
fragility has not grown our dependence
on electronic systems our vulnerability
to disruption and so all sorts of things
have gotten much better what other
things have gotten much worse in the
destructive potential of skyrocketed its
tragedy the only way we wake up from the
big nap well no you could also have you
know jubilation about positive things
but it's harder to get people's
attention can you give an example of a
big global positive thing well I could
happen I think that when for example
just historically speaking HIV went from
being a death sentence to something that
people could live with for a very long
period of time it would be great if that
had happened on a Wednesday right like
all at once like you knew that things
had changed and so the bleed in somewhat
kills the sort of the Wednesday effect
where it all happens on a particular day
at a particular moment I think if you
look at the stock market here you know
there's a very clear moment where you
can see that the market absorbs the idea
of the coronavirus I think that with
respect to positives the moon landing
was the best example of a positive that
happened at a particular time or
recapitulating the Soviet American
link-up in terms of Skylab and Soyuz
right like that was a huge moment when
you actually had these two nations
connecting in orbit and so yeah there
are great moments where something
beautiful and wonderful and amazing
happens you know but it's just they're
fewer that's why that's why as much as I
can't imagine proposing to somebody at a
sporting event when you have like 30,000
people waiting and you know like she
says yes that's pretty exciting
so I think that we shouldn't we
shouldn't discount that so how bad do
you think it's going to get in terms
of the global suffering that we're going
to experience with this with this crisis
I can't figure this one out
I'm just not smart enough something is
goin weirdly wrong and they're almost
like two separate storylines we in one
storyline we aren't taking things nearly
seriously enough we see people using
food packaging lids as masks who are
doctors or nurses we hear horrible
stories about people dying needlessly
due to triage and that's a very
terrifying story on the other hand
there's this other story which says
there are tons of ventilators someplace
we've got lots of masks but they haven't
been released
we've got hospital ships where none of
the beds are being used and it's very
confusing to me that somehow these two
stories give me the feeling that they
both must be true simultaneously and
they can't both be true in any kind of
standard way well I don't know whether
it's just that I'm dumb but I can't get
one or the other story to quiet down so
I think weirdly this is much more
serious than we had understood it and
it's not nearly as serious as some
people are making it out to be at the
same time and that we're not being given
the tools to actually understand well
here's how to interpret the data or
here's the issue with the personal
protective equipment is actually a
jurisdictional battle or a question of
who pays for it rather than a question
of whether it's present or apps I don't
understand the details of it but
something is wildly off in our ability
to understand where we are so that's
that's policy that's institutions what
about do you think about the quiet
suffering of millions of people they've
lost their job is this a temporary thing
I mean what I'm my ears not to the
suffering of those people who have lost
their job or the 50% possibly of small
businesses that are gonna go bankrupt do
you think about that sure it's suffering
well and how that might arise itself
could be not quiet - I mean right that's
the could be a depression this could go
from recession
depression and depression could go to
armed conflict and then to war so it's
not a very abstract causal chain that
gets us to the point where we can begin
with quiet suffering and an anxiety and
all of these sorts of things and people
losing their jobs and people dying from
stress and all sorts of things but look
anything powerful enough to put us all
in doors in a I mean think about this as
an incredible experiment imagine that
you proposed hey I want to do a bunch of
research let's figure out what what
changes in our emissions emissions
profiles for our carbon footprints when
we're all indoors or what happens to
traffic patterns or what happens to the
vulnerability of retail sales as Amazon
gets stronger you know etc etc I believe
that in many of those situations we're
running an incredible experiment and am
I worried for us all yes there are some
bright spots one of which is that when
you're ordered to stay indoors people
are gonna feel entitled and the usual
thing that people are going to hit when
they hear that they've lost your job you
know some there's this kind of tough
[Music]
tough love attitude that you see
particularly in the United States like
oh you lost your job poor baby
well go retrain get another one I think
there's gonna be a lot less appetite for
that because we've been asked to
sacrifice to risk to act collectively
and that's the interesting thing
what does that really can in us maybe
the idea that we actually are Nations
and then you know your fellow countrymen
may start to mean something to more
people certainly mean something to
people in the military but I wonder how
many people who aren't in the military
start to think about this it's like oh
yeah we are kind of running separate
experiments and we are not china so you
think this is kind of a period that
might be studied for years to come from
my perspective we are a part of the
experi
but I don't feel like we have access to
the full data the full data of the
experiment we're just like little mice
yeah in a large does this one make sense
to you Lex I'm romanticizing it and I
keep connecting it to World War two so I
keep connecting to historical events and
making sense of them through that way
or reading the plague by Camus like
almost kind of telling narratives and
stories but my I'm not hearing the
suffering that people are going through
because I think that's quiet
everybody's numb currently they're not
realising what it means to have lost
your job and to have lost your business
there's kind of a I am
I'm afraid how that fear well material
as itself once the numbness wears out
and especially if this lasts for many
months then if it's connected to the
incompetence of the CDC in the w-h-o and
our government and perhaps the election
process you know might be biggest fear
is that the you know elections get
delayed or something like that so the
the basic mechanisms of our democracy
get slowed or damaged in some way that
then mixes with the fear that people
have that turns to panic that turns to
anger that anger can I just play with
that for a butcher what if in fact all
of that structure that you grew up
thinking about and again you grew up in
two places right so when you were inside
the US we tend to look at all of these
things as museum pieces like how often
do we amend the Constitution anymore and
in some sense if you think about the
Jewish tradition of Simchat Torah you've
got this beautiful scroll that has been
lovingly hand drawn in calligraphy
that's very valuable and it's very
important that you not treat it
as a relic to be revered and so we one
day a year we dance with the Torah and
we hold this incredibly vulnerable
document up and we treat it as if you
know it was Ginger Rogers being led by
Fred Astaire well that is how you become
part of your country in fact maybe the
maybe the election will be delayed maybe
extraordinary powers will be used maybe
any one of a number of things will
indicate that you're actually living
through history this isn't a museum
piece that you handed by your
great-great grandparents but you're kind
of suggesting that there might be a like
a community thing that pops up lucky
like as opposed to an angry revolution
it might have a positive effect oh well
for example are you telling me that if
the right person stood up and called for
us to sacrifice PPE for our nurses and
our MDS who are on the front lines that
like people wouldn't reach down deep in
their own supply that they've been like
stalking and carefully storing they just
said here take it
like right now an actual leader would
use this time to bring out the heroic
character and I'm going to just go
wildly patriotic cuz I freaking love
this country we've got this dormant
population in the u.s. that loves
leadership and country and pride in our
freedom and not being told what to do
and we still have this thing that binds
us together and all of them the
merchants of division just be gone I
totally agree with you there's a I think
there is a deep hunger for that
leadership why isn't that why hasn't one
of yours we don't have the right Surgeon
General we have as guys saying you know
come on guys don't buy masks they don't
really work for you save them for our
healthcare professionals no you can't do
that you have to say you know what these
masks will actually do work and they
more work to protect other people
from you but they would work for you
they'll keep you somewhat safer if you
wear them here's the deal you've got
somebody who's taking huge amounts of
viral load all the time because the
patients are shedding do you want to
protect that person who's volunteered to
be on the frontline who's up sleepless
nights he you just changed the message
you stop lying to people you just yeah
you level with them it's like it's bad
absolutely but that's uh that's a little
bit specific so you you have to be just
honest about the facts of the situation
yes but I think you were referring to
something bigger than just that yes
inspiring like you know rewriting the
Constitution sort of rethinking how we
work as a nation yeah I think you should
probably you know amend the Constitution
once or twice in a lifetime so that you
don't get this distance from the
foundational documents and you know part
of the problem is that we've got two
generations on top that feel very
connected to the US they feel bought in
and we've got three generations below
it's a little bit like watching your
parents riding the tricycle that they
were supposed to pass on to you and it's
like you're now too old to ride a
tricycle and they're still whooping it
up ringing the bell with the streamers
coming off the handlebars and you're
just thinking do you guys never get
bored do you never pass a torch do you
really want it we had five
septuagenarians all born in the 40s
running for president the United States
when cloture dropped out the youngest
was Warren we had Warren Biden Sanders
Bloomberg and Trump for like 1949 to
1941 all who have been the the oldest
president and inauguration and nobody
nobody says grandma grandpa you're
embarrassing us except Joe Rogan let me
put it on you you have a big platform
you're somewhat of an intelligent
eloquent guy what what role do you
somewhat what role do you play why
aren't you that leader well you're I
mean I would argue that you're in in
ways becoming that leader so I haven't
taken enough risk is that your idea what
should I do or say at the moment no
you're a little bit
you have taken quite a big risks and
we'll talk about it all right but you're
also on the outside shooting in meaning
you're dismantling the institution from
the outside as opposed to becoming what
the institution
did you remember that thing you brought
up when you were on the view if you I'm
sorry when you were on Oprah I didn't
make I didn't get the end I'm sorry when
you were on Bill Maher's program what
was that thing you were saying they
don't know we're here they may watch us
yeah they may quietly to us you know
slip us a direct message but they
pretend that this internet thing is some
dangerous place where only lunatics play
well who has the bigger platform the
portal or Bill Maher's program or the
view Bill Maher in the view in terms of
viewership or in terms of what's the
metric of size well first of all the key
thing is take take a newspaper and they
even imagine that it's completely fake
okay and then there's very little in the
way of circulation yet imagine that it's
a hundred-year-old paper and that it's
still part of this game
this internal game of media the key
point is is that those sources that have
that kind of mark of respectability to
the institutional structures matter in a
way that even if I say something at a
very large platform that makes a lot of
sense if it's outside of what I've
called the gated institutional narrative
or gin it sort of doesn't make matter to
the institutions so the game is if it
happens outside of the club we can
pretend that it never happened how can
you get the credibility and authority
from outside the gated institutional
narrative I'm well first of all you you
and I both share institutional
credibility coming from our associations
we were both at MIT yes were you at
Harvard at any point nope
okay well and lived in Harvard Square so
did I but you know at some level it the
issue isn't whether you have credentials
in that sense the key question is can
you be trusted to file a flight plan and
not deviate from that flight plan when
you are in an interview situation will
you stick to the talking points I will
not and that's why you're not going to
be allowed in the general conversation
which amplifies these sentiments but I'm
still trying to see your point it would
be is that we're let's say both so
you've done how many Joe Rogan before
I've done for two right so both of us
are somewhat frequent guests the show is
huge you know the power as well as I do
and people are gonna watch this
conversation huge number watched our
last one by the way that I want to thank
you for that one that was a terrific
terrific conversation really did change
my life lecture my life you're brilliant
interviewer so thank you take care that
was that you changed my life to that you
gave me a chance
so no no I'm so glad I did that one what
I would say is is that we keep mistaking
how big the audience is for whether or
not you have the kiss and the kiss is a
different thing yes yeah that's it
doesn't it's not an acronym yet okay um
it's thank you for asking
it's a question of are you part of the
inter interoperable institution friendly
discussion and that's the discussion
which we ultimately have to break into
but that's what I'm trying to get at is
how do we how do you how does Eric
Weinstein become the president of the
United States me I shouldn't become the
president of the United States not
interested thank you very much for us
okay get into a leadership position
where I guess I don't know what that
means
but where you can inspire millions of
people to the inspire the sense of
community inspire the the kind of action
is required to overcome hardship the
kind of hardship that we may be
experiencing to inspire people to work
hard and face the difficult hard facts
of the realities we're living
through all those kinds of things that
you're talking about that leader you
know cannot leader emerge from the
current institutions or alternatively
can it also emerge from the outside I
guess that's what I was asking so my
belief is is that this is the last
hurrah for the elderly centrist
kleptocrats
can you define each of those terms okay
elderly I mean people who were born at
least a year before I was that's a joke
you can laugh no because I'm born at the
cusp of the Gen X boomer divides
centrist they're pretending you know
that there are two parties Democrat and
Republican Party in the United States I
think it's easier to think of the
mainstream of both of them as part of a
an aggregate party that I sometimes call
the looting party which gets us to
kleptocracy which is ruled by thieves
and the great temptation has been to
treat the us like a trough and you just
have to get yours because it's not like
we're doing anything productive so
everybody's sort of looting the family
mansion and somebody stole the silver
and somebody's cutting the pictures out
of the frames you know roughly speaking
we're watching our elders live it up in
a way that doesn't make sense to the
rest of us okay so if it's let the last
hoorah this is the time for leaders to
step up like we're not ready yet we're
not ready I call I call out you know the
head of the CDC should resign should
resign that the Surgeon General should
resign Trump should resign Pelosi should
resign de Blasio should we're not going
to resign I understand that so that's
why so we'll wait no but that s not how
revolutions work you don't wait for
people to design you step up and inspire
the alternative do you remember the
Russian Revolution of 1907 it's before
my time but there wasn't a Russian
Revolution of 1907 years think he were
in 1907 that I'm saying where to work
you too early but we got this
you know Spanish flu came in 1718 so
I would argue that there's a lot of
parallels there or the one I think it's
not time yet
like John Prine the the songwriter just
died of kovat that was a pretty big
really yeah by the way you yes of course
I every time we do this we discover our
mutual appreciation of obscure brilliant
witty yeah song right he's really he's
really quite good right he's he's really
good yeah he died my understanding is
that he passed recently due to
complications of Corona so we haven't
had large enough enough large ink large
enough shocking deaths yet picturesque
deaths deaths of a family that couldn't
get treatment there are stories that
will come and break our hearts and we
have not had enough of those the visuals
haven't come in but I think they're
coming well we'll find out but that you
got a you have to be there he have to be
there when they come I'm yet but we
didn't get the visual for example a
falling man from 9/11 right so the
outside world did but Americans were not
I was thought that we would be too
delicate so just the way you remember
pule a surprise wedding photographs from
the Vietnam era
you don't easily remember the
photographs from all sorts of things
that have happened since because
something changed in our media we are
incensed that we cannot feel or
experience our own lives and the tragedy
that would animate us to action yeah but
I think there again I think there's
going to be that suffering that's going
to build and build and build in terms of
businesses mom-and-pop shops that close
and like I think for myself I think off
tonight that I'm being weak and and like
I feel like I should be doing something
I should be becoming a leader on a small
scale you can't this is not World War
two and this is not Soviet Russia why
not why not because our internal
programming the malware that sits
between our ears is
much different than the propaganda is
malware of the Soviet era I mean people
were both very indoctrinated and also
knew that it was BS they had a double
mind
I don't know him there must be a great
word in Russian for being able to think
both of those things simultaneously you
don't think people are actually sick of
the partisanship sick of incompetence
yeah but I call for revolt the other day
on Joe Rogan people found it quixotic
well because I think you're not
I think revolt is different I think asks
like okay I'm really angry
yes I'm furious I cannot stand that this
is my country at the moment I am
embarrassed so let's build a better one
yeah that's the I mean okay so well okay
so let's take over a few universities
let's start running a different
experiment at some of our better than
universities like when I did this
experiment I said what at this if this
were 40 years ago the median age I
believe of a university president was 51
that would have the person in Gen X and
we'd have a bunch of millennial
presidents a bunch of you know more than
half Gen X it's almost 100% baby boom at
this moment and how did that happen we
can get into how they changed retirement
but this generation above us does not
feel for even even the older generous I
love jittery I had roger penrose on my
program excellent coffee and I thank you
really appreciate that and I asked no
question it was very important to me and
I said look you're in your late 80s is
there anyone you could point to as a
successor that we should be watching we
can get excited you know I said here's
an opportunity to pass the baton and he
said well let me let me hold off on that
is it ever the right moment to point to
somebody younger than you to keep your
flame alive after you're gone and also
like I don't know whether I'm just gonna
admit to this people treat me like I'm
crazy for caring about the
world after him dead or wanting to be
remembered after you're gone like well
what does it matter to you you're gone
it's this deeply sort of secular somatic
perspective on everything we're we we
don't you know that phrase in as time
goes by it says it's still the same old
story a fight for love and glory a case
of do it I don't think people imagined
then that there wouldn't be a story
about fighting for love and glory and
like we are so out of practice about
fighting you know rivals for love and
and and in fighting for glory and
something bigger than yourself but the
hunger is there well that was the point
then right the whole idea is that Rick
was you know it was like Han Solo of his
time he's just like I stick my neck out
for nobody you know it's like oh come on
Rick you're just pretending you actually
have a big soul right and so at some
level that's the question do we have a
big Soler's it's just all bullshit
see I think I think there's huge
Manhattan Project style projects whether
you talk about physical infrastructure
or going to Mars
you know the SpaceX NASA efforts or huge
huge scientific efforts well let me get
back into the institutions and we need
to remove the weak leadership that we
have weak leaders and the weak leaders
need to be removed and they need to seat
people more dangerous than the people
who are currently sitting in a lot of
those chairs or build new institutions
good luck
well I one of the nice things of from
the internet is for example somebody
like you can have a bigger voice than
almost anybody at the particular
institutions we're talking about that's
true but the thing is I might say
something you can count on the fact that
the you know Provost at Princeton isn't
going to say anything what do you mean
too afraid
well if that person were to give an
interview how are things going in in in
research at Princeton
well I'm hesitant to say it but they're
perhaps as good as they've
ever been and I think they're gonna get
better oh is that right all fields yep
oh yeah I don't see a weak one that's
just like okay great
who are you and what it even say we're
just used to total nonsense 24/7 yeah
what do you think might be a beautiful
thing that comes out of this like what
is there a hope it like a little inkling
a little fire of hope you have about our
time right now yeah I think one thing is
coming to understand that the freaks
weirdos mutants and other narrow duels
sometimes referred to as grifters I like
that one
grifters and gadflies were very often
the earliest people on the crown of iris
that's a really interesting question why
was that and it seems to be that they
had already paid such a social price
that they weren't going to be beaten up
by being told that oh my god you're
xenophobic you just hate China you know
or wow you sound like a conspiracy
theorist so if you've already paid those
prices you were free to think about this
and everyone in an institutional
framework was terrified that they didn't
want to be seen as the alarmist the
Chicken Little and so that's why you
have this confidence where you know de
Blasio says you know get on with your
lives get back in there and celebrate
Chinese New Year in Chinatown
despite coronavirus it's like okay
really so you just always thought
everything would automatically be okay
if you if you adapted sorry if you
adopted that posture so you think this
time reveals the weakness of our
institutions and reveals the strength of
our gadflies and the weirdos and no not
necessary the strength but the the the
value of freedom like a different way of
saying it would be Wow even your
gadflies and your grifters were able to
beat your institutional folks because
your institutional folks we're playing
with a giant mental handicap so just
imagine like
you're in the story of Harrison Bergeron
by Vonnegut and our smartest people were
all subjected to distracting noises
every seven seconds well they would be
functionally much dumber because they
couldn't continue a thought through all
the disturbance so in some sense that's
a little bit like what belonging to an
institution is is that if you have to
make a public statement of course the
search in general is going to be the
worst because they're just playing with
too much of a handicap they're too many
institutional players really don't screw
us up and so the person has to say
something wrong we're gonna back
propagate a falsehood and this is very
interesting some of my socially oriented
friends say Eric I don't understand what
you're on about of course masks work but
you know what they're trying to do
they're trying to get us not to buy up
the masks for the doctors and I think
okay so you imagine that we can just
create scientific fiction at will so
that you can run whatever social program
you want this is what I mean my point is
get out of my lab get out of the lab you
don't belong in the lab you're not meant
for the lab you're constitutionally
incapable of being around the lab you
need to leave the lab you think the CDC
and whu-oh knew that masks work and
we're trying to sort of imagine that
people are kind of stupid
and they would buy masks and in in
excess if they were told that masks work
is that like because this does seem to
be a particularly clear example of
mistakes made you're asking me this
question yeah no you're not what do you
think Lex well I actually probably
disagree with you a little bit great
let's do it
I think it's not so easy to be honest
with the populace when the danger of
panic is always around the corner so hmm
I I think the kind of honesty you
exhibit appeals to a certain class of
brave intellectual minds that it appeals
to me but I don't know
the perspective wh Oh I don't know if
it's so obvious that they should be
honest 100% of the time with people I'm
not saying you should be perfectly
transparent and 100% honest I'm saying
that the quality of your lies has to be
very high and asked my public spirited
is there a big difference between so I'm
not not a child about this yeah
I'm not saying that when you're at war
for example you turn over all of your
plans to the enemy because it's
important that you're transparent with
360 degree visibility far from it what
I'm saying is something has been
forgotten and I forgot who it was who
told it to me it was a fellow graduate
student in the harvard math department
and he said you know i learned one thing
being out in the workforce because he
was one of the few people who had a work
life in the department as a grad student
and he said you can be friends with your
boss but if you're going to be friends
with your boss you have to be doing a
good job at work and there's an analog
here which is if you're going to be
reasonably honest with the population
you have to be doing a good job at work
as the Surgeon General or as the head of
the CDC so if you're doing a terrible
job you're supposed to resign and then
the next person is supposed to say look
I'm not gonna lie to you I inherited the
situation it was in a bit of disarray
but I had several requirements before I
agreed to step in and take the job
because I needed to know I could turn it
around I needed to know that I had clear
lines of authority I needed to know that
I had the resources available in order
to rectify the problem and I needed to
know that I had the ability in the
freedom to level with the American
people directly as I saw fit all of my
wishes were granted and that's why I'm
happy here on Monday morning I've got my
sleeves rolled up boy do we got a lot to
do so please come back in two weeks and
then ask me how I'm doing then and I
hope to have something to show you
that's how you do it so why is that
excellence and basic competence missing
the big nap you see you come from
multiple traditions where it was very
important to remember things
the Soviet tradition made sure that you
remembered the sacrifices that came in
that war in the Jewish tradition we're
doing this on Passover right okay well
every year we tell one simple story well
why can't it be different every year
maybe we can have a rotating series of
sevens do it because it's the one story
that you need it's like you know you
work with the men in black group right
and it's the last suit that you'll ever
need this is the last story that you
ever need don't think I fell for your
neuralyzer last time in any event we
tell one story because it's to get out
of Dodge story there's a time when you
need to not wait for the the bread to
rise and that's the thing which is even
if you live through a great nap you
deserve to know what it feels like to
have to leave everything that has become
comfortable and and unworkable
it's said that you need you need that
tragedy I imagine to have the tradition
of remembering it's it's sad to to think
that because things have been nice and
comfortable means that we can't have
great competent leaders which is kind of
the implied statement like can we have
great leaders who take big risks or who
inspire hard work who deal with
difficult truth even though things have
been comfortable well we know what those
people sound like I mean you know if for
example Jocko willing suddenly threw his
hat into the ring everyone would say
okay right party's over it's time to get
up at 4:30 and really work hard and
we've got to get back into fighting shit
and yeah but Jocko is a very special I
think that whole group of people by
profession put themselves in the way of
and into hardship on a daily basis and
he's not well I don't know but he's
probably not going to be
okay Jocko be president okay but it
doesn't have to be Jocko right like in
other words if it was Kyle ne or if it
was Alex Honnold from rock-climbing
right but they're just serious people
they're serious people who can't afford
your BS yeah but why do we have serious
people that do rock climbing and don't
have serious people who lead the nation
that that seems because that was a those
skills needed in rock climbing are not
good during the big nap and at the tail
end of the big nap they would get you
fired
but I don't don't you think there's a
fundamental part of human nature that
desires to excel to be exceptionally
good at your job yeah but what is your
job I mean in other words my my point to
you is if you if you're a general in a
peacetime army and your major activity
is playing war games what if the skills
needed to win war games are very
different than the skills needed to win
wars because you know how the war games
are scored and you've you've done
Moneyball for example with wargames you
figured out how to win games on paper so
then the the advancement skill becomes
divergent from the ultimate skill that
it was proxying for yeah but you create
this we're good as human beings to I
mean I thought at least me I can't do a
big nap so at any one moment when I
finish something a new dream pops up so
right going to Mars go to what do you
like to do you like to do Brazilian
Jujitsu well first of all I like to do
every you like to play guitar guitar you
do this podcast you do theory you're
always you're constantly taking risks
and exposing yourself all right why
because you got one of those crazy I'm
sorry to say it you got an Eastern
European Jewish personality which I'm
still tied to and I'm a couple
generations more distant than you are
and I've held on to that thing because
it's valuable to me you don't think
there's a huge percent of the populace
even in the United States that's that's
that oh maybe a little bit doormen
but do you know Anna Hutchins from the
Red Scare podcast did you interview her
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah she was great
she was great right yeah it's just fun
she's she's terrific
but she also has the same thing going on
and I made a joke in the liner notes for
that episode which is somewhere on the
road from Stalingrad to forever 21
something was lost like how can
Stalingrad and forever 21 be in the same
sentence and you know in part it's that
weird thing it's like trying to remember
even words like I mean Russian and
Hebrew things like it's like what poem
yet and this core you know these words
have much more potency about memory and
I don't know I do I think I think
there's still a dormant populace that
craves leaders on a small scan large
scale and I hope to be that leader and
on a small scale and I think you sir
have a role to be a leader you kids go
ahead without me I'm just gonna I'm
gonna do a little bit of weird
podcasting see see now you're you're
putting on your Joe Rogan hat he says
I'm just a comedian oh no I'm gonna say
I'm just it's not that if I say I want
to lead too much because of the big nap
there's like a group a chorus of
automated idiots and they're there first
I was like oh I knew it
it's a power grab all along why should
you leave you know it's just like and so
the idea is you're just trying to skirt
around not stepping on all of the idiot
landmines it's like okay so now I'm
gonna hear that in my inbox for the next
three days
okay so lead by example just live no I
mean large platform look we should take
over the institutions there are
institutions we've got bad leadership we
should mutiny and we should inject a 15%
20% disagreeable dissident very
aggressive loner individual mutant
freaks all the people that you go to see
Avengers movies about or the x-men or
whatever it is and stop pretending that
everything good comes out of some great
giant inclusive communal 12-hour meeting
it's like stop it
that's not how shit happens you recently
published the video of a lecture he gave
at Oxford presenting some aspects of a
theory theory of everything called
geometric unity so this was a work of 30
30 plus years this is his life's work
let me ask her of the silly old question
how do you feel as a human excited
scared the experience of posting it you
know it's funny one of the one of the
things that you you learn to feel as an
academic is the great sins you can
commit in academics is to show yourself
to be a non-serious person to show
yourself to have delusions to avoid the
standard practices which everyone has
signed up for and you know it's weird
because like you know that those people
are gonna be angry he did what you know
why would he do that and and what we're
referring to for example as traditions
of sort of publishing incrementally
certainly not trying to have a theory of
everything perhaps working within the
academic departments yeah all those
things so that's true and so you're
going outside of all of that well I mean
I was going inside of all of that and we
did not come to terms when I was inside
and what they did was so outside to me
was so weird so freakish like the most
senior respectable people at the most
senior respectable places were
functionally insane as far as I could
tell and again it's like being
functionally stupid if you're the head
of the CDC or something where you know
you're giving recommendations out there
aren't based on what you actually
believe they're based on what you think
you have to be doing well in some sense
I think that that's a lot of how I saw
the math and physics world as the
physics world was really crazy and the
math world was considerably less crazy
just very strict and kind of
dogmatic will psychoanalyze those folks
but I really want to maybe linger on it
a little bit longer of how you feel
because yeah so it's such a such a
special moment in your life I really
appreciate it's a great question so that
if we can pair off some of that others
those other issues its new being able to
say what the observer's is which is my
attempt to replace space-time with
something that is both closely related
to space time and not space-time so I
used to carry the number 14 as a closely
guarded secret in my life and where 14
is really four dimensions of space and
time plus ten extra dimensions of rulers
and protractors or four the cool kids
out there symmetric to tensors she had a
geometric complicated beautiful
geometric view of the world that you
carry with you for a long time yeah did
you did you have friends that you
colleagues essentially no talk no in
fact part of these part of that some of
these stories are me coming out to my
friends and I used the phrase coming out
because I think that gays have
monopolized the concept of the closet
many of us are in closets haven't having
nothing to do with their sexual
orientation yeah I didn't really feel
comfortable talking to almost anyone so
this was a closely guarded secret and I
think that I let on in some ways that I
was up to something and probably but it
was a very weird life so I did write I
have a series of things that I pretended
to care about so that I could use that
as the stalking horse for what I really
cared about and to your point I never
understood this whole thing about
theories of everything like if you were
gonna go into something like theoretical
physics isn't that what you would
normally pursue like wouldn't it be
crazy to do something that difficult and
that poorly paid if you we're gonna try
to do something other than figure out
what this is all about now I have to
reveal my cards my weaknesses and lack
an understanding of the music of physics
and math departments but there's an
analogy here to artificial intelligence
and often folks come in and say okay so
there's a giant department working on
quote-unquote artificial intelligence
but why is nobody actually working on
intelligence like it you're all just
building little toys right you're not
actually trying to understand and that
breaks a lot of people and that they it
confuses them it's like okay so I'm at
MIT I'm at Stanford I'm at Harvard I'm
here I dreamed of being what kind of
artificial intelligence why is everybody
not actually working on intelligence and
I have the same kind of sense that
that's what working on the theory of
everything is that's strangely you
somehow become an outcast for even but
we know why this is right why well it's
because let's take the artificial it's
play with a GI for example yeah I think
that the idea starts off with nobody
really knows how to work on that and so
if we don't know how to work on it we
choose instead to work on a program that
is tangentially related to it so we do a
component of a program that is related
to that big question because it's felt
like at least I can make progress there
and that wasn't where I was where I was
in it's funny there was this book of
called Friedan uhlan beck and it had
this weird mysterious line in the
beginning of it and I tried to get
clarification of this weird mysterious
line and everyone said wrong things and
then I said okay well so I can tell that
nobody's thinking properly because I
just asked the entire department and
nobody has a correct interpretation of
this and so you know it's a little bit
like you see a crime-scene photo and you
have a different idea like there's a
smoking gun and you figure that's
actually a cigarette lighter I don't
really believe that and then there's
like a pack of cards and you think huh
that looks like the blunt instrument
that the person was beaten with you know
so you have a very different idea about
how things go and very quickly you
realize that there's no one thinking
about them
there's a few human-sized to this and
technical size both of which I'd love to
try to get down to so the human side I
can tell from my perspective I think it
was before April 1st and April Fool's
maybe the day before I forget but I was
laying in bed in the middle of the night
and somehow it popped up you know i am i
feed somewhere that your beautiful face
is speaking live and i clicked and you
know it's kind of weird how the universe
just brings things together in this kind
of way and all sudden i realized that
there's something big happening in this
particular moment is strange like any
day on a day like any day and all of a
sudden you were thinking of you had this
somber tone like you were serious like
you were going through some difficult
decision and it seems strange I almost
thought you were maybe joking but
there's a serious decision being made
and it was a wonderful experience to go
through with you I really appreciate it
it was April 1st yeah it was it's kind
of fascinating him he's just the whole
experience and and and so that I want to
ask I mean thank you for letting me be
part of that kind of journey of
decision-making that took 30 years but
why now why did you think
why did you struggle so long not to
release it and decide to release it now
Anna while the whole world is on
lockdown an April Fool's is it just
because you like the comedy of absurd
ways that the universe comes together I
don't think so I think that the Cova
Depa demmick is the end of the big nap
and I think that I actually tried this
seven years earlier in Oxford so I and
it was too early which part was too is
it the the platform because your plight
different now actually the Internet I
remember you I read several your
brilliant answers that people should
read for the edge
one of them was related to the Internet
and it was the first one was it the
first one yeah that's a called go
virtual young man yeah yeah that seemed
that's like forever ago now
well that was ten years ago and that's
exactly what I did is I decamped to the
Internet which is where the portal lives
the portal the portal yeah the theme
that's ramen esteem music he just
listened to forever I actually started
recording tiny guitar licks for the
audio portion not for the video portion
you kind of inspired me with bringing
your guitar into the story but keep
going you see you thought so the Oxford
was like step one you kind of yet you
put your foot into the in the water to
sample it but it was too cold at the
time so you didn't want to step in just
really disappointed what was
disappointing about that experience very
is it's a hard thing to talk about it
has to do with the fact that and I can
see this in this you know as mirrors a
disappointment within myself there are
two separate issues one is the issue of
making sure that the idea is actually
heard and explored and the other is the
is the question about will I become
disconnected from my work because it
will be ridiculed it will it will be
immediately improved it will be found to
be derivative of something that occurred
in some paper in 1957 when the community
does not want you to gain a voice it's a
little bit like a policeman deciding to
weirdly and enforce all of these
little-known regulations against you and
you know sometimes nobody else and I
think that's kind of you know this weird
thing where I just don't believe that we
can reach the final theory necessarily
within the political economy of
academics so if you think about how
academics are tortured by each other and
have their paid and where they have
freedom and where they don't
I actually weirdly think that that
system of selective pressures is going
to eliminate anybody who's going to make
real progress so that's interesting so
if you look at
the story of Andrew Wiles for example
with from last Last Theorem he as far as
I understand he pretty much isolated
himself from the world of academics in
terms of the big with the bulk of the
work he did and it from my perspective
is dramatic and fun to read about but it
seemed exceptionally stressful the first
step he took the first steps he took
when actually making the work public
that's him to me would be hell now but
it's like so artificially dramatic you
know he leads up to it at a series of
lectures he doesn't want to say it and
then he finally says it at the end
because obviously this comes out of a
body of work where I mean the funny part
about for Moz le'ts theorem is that
wasn't originally thought to be a deep
and meaningful problem it was just an
easy to state one that had gone unsolved
but if you think about it it became
attached to the body of regular theory
so he built up this body of regular
theory gets all the way up to the end
announces and then like there's this
whole drama about okay somebody's
checking the proof I don't understand
what's going on on line 37 you know and
like oh is this serious seems a little
bit more serious than we knew I mean do
you see parallels you share the concern
that the year your experience might be
something similar well in his case I
think that if I recall correctly his
original proof was unsalvageable he
actually came up with a second proof
with a colleague Richard Taylor and it
was that second proof which carried the
day so it was a little bit that he got
put under incredible pressure and then
had to succeed in a new way having
failed the first time which is like even
a weirder and stranger store has an
incredible story in some sense but I
mean a you I'm trying to get a sense of
the kind of stress I think this is okay
but I'm rejecting what I don't think
people understand with me is the scale
of the critique it's like I don't you
people say well you must implicitly
agree with this and implicitly agree
it's like now try me ask before you you
decide that I am mostly an agreement
with the community about how these
things should be handled or what these
things mean keo keo
and also just why this criticism matter
so much here so you seem to dislike the
burden of criticism that it will cho