Kind: captions
Language: en
the following is a conversation with
simon Sinek author of several books
including start with why leaders eat
last and his latest the infinite game
he's one of the best communicators of
what it takes to be a good leader to
inspire and to build businesses that
solve big difficult challenges this is
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now here's my conversation with simon
Sinek
in the infinite game your most recent
book you describe the finite game in the
infinite game so from my perspective of
artificial intelligence and game theory
in general I'm a huge fan of finite
games from the broad philosophical sense
is something that in the robotics
artificial intelligence space we know
how to deal with and then you describe
the infinite game which has no exact
static rules has no well-defined static
objective as the players are known
unknown they change there's a dynamic
element so this is something that
applies to business politics life itself
so can you try to articulate the
objective function here of the infinite
game or in the in the cliche broad
philosophical sense what is the meaning
of life go for the start with a soft
ball you know easy question first
so James Carr was the philosopher who
originally articulated this concept of
finite and infinite games and when I
learned about it it really challenged my
view of how the world works right
because I think we all think about
winning and being the best and being
number one but if you think about it
only in a finite game can that exist a
game that has fixed rules agreed upon
objectives and known players like
football or baseball there's always a
beginning middle and end and if there's
a winner that has to be a loser infinite
games as cars describes them as you said
have known and unknown players which
means anyone can join it has a
changeable rules which means you can
play however you want and the objective
is to perpetuate the game to stay in the
game as long as possible in other words
there's no such thing as being number
one or winning in a game that has no
finish line and what I learned is that
when we try to win in a game that has no
finish line we try and be number we try
to be the best in a game that has no
agreed-upon objectives or agreed-upon
metrics or timeframes there's a few
consistent and predictable outcomes the
decline of trust the decline the decline
of cooperation the decline of innovation
and I find this fascinating because so
many of the ways that we run most
organizations is with a finite mindset
you're trying to reduce the beautiful
complex thing that is life or what
politics or business into something very
narrow and in that process the
reductionist process you lose something
fundamental that makes the whole thing
work in the long term so returning not
going to let you off the hook easy what
is the meaning of life so what is the
objective function that is worthwhile to
pursue well if you think about our
tombstones right they have the date we
were born in the date we died but really
it's what we do with the gap in between
there's a poem called the - you know
it's the - that matters it's what we do
between the time we're going and the
time we die that gives our life meaning
and if we live our lives with a finite
mindset which means to accumulate more
power or money than anybody else to
outdo everyone else to be number one to
be the best we don't take any of us with
us we don't take any of it with us we
just die the people who get remembered
the way we want to be remembered is how
what kind of people we were right
devoted mother loving father what kind
of person we were to other people Jack
Welch just died recently and the
Washington Post when it when it wrote
the headline for his for his obit it
wrote he pleased Wall Street and
distressed employees and that's his
legacy of a finite player who was
obsessed with winning yes who leaves
behind a legacy of short-term gains for
a few and distress for many that's his
legacy and every single one of us gets
the choice of the kind of legacy one I
have do we want to be remembered for our
contributions or a dish or our
detractions to live with a finite
mindset to live a career with a finite
mindset to be number one be the best be
the most famous lay the life like Jack
Welch you know to live a life of service
to to see those around us rise to
contribute to our communities to our
organizations to leave them in better
shape than we found them that's that's
the kind of legacy most of us would like
to have so day to day when you think
about what is the the fundamental
goals dreams motivations of an infinite
game of seeing your life your career is
an infinite game what is that what does
that look like I mean I guess I'm sort
of trying to stick on this personal ego
personal Drive the thing that the fire
the reason we want to wake up in the
morning and everything we can't go to
bed because we're so excited yeah what
is that so for me it's about having a
just cause it's about a vision that's
bigger than me
that my work gets to contribute to
something larger than myself you know
that's what drives me every day I wake
up every morning with a with a vision of
a world that does not yet exist a world
in which the vast majority of people
wake up every single morning inspired
feel safe at work and return home
fulfilled at the end of the day is not
the world we live in and so that we
still have work to do is the thing that
drives me you know I know what I know
what my underlying values are you know I
wake up to inspire people to do the
things that inspire them and these are
the things that these are the things
that I these are my go to is my touch
points that inspire me to keep working
you know I think of a career like an
iceberg you know if you have a vision
for something you're the only one who
can see the iceberg underneath the ocean
but if you start working at it a little
bit shows up and now a few other people
can see what you imagined be like oh
right yeah no I want to help build that
as well and if you have a lot of success
then you have a lot of iceberg and
people can see this huge iceberg and
they say you've accomplished so much but
but what I see is all the work still yet
to be done yet I still see the huge
iceberg underneath the ocean and so the
growth you talk about momentum so the
incremental revealing of the iceberg is
what drives you well it necessarily is
incremental what drives me is that is
the realization is every is realizing
the iceberg bringing more of the iceberg
from the unknown to the known bringing
more of the vision from the imagination
to reality and you have this fundamental
vision of optimism you call yourself an
optimist I mean in this world I have
sort of I see myself a little bit as the
main character from the 88 by Dostoevsky
who is also kind of
seen by society is a fool because he was
optimistic so one can you maybe
articulate where that sense of optimism
comes from and maybe also try to
articulate your vision of the future
where people are inspired or optimism
drives us yes it's easy to forget that
when you look at social media and so on
with the word toxicity a negativity can
often get more likes that optimism has a
sort of a beauty to it and I I do hope
it's out there so what can you try to
articulate a vision yeah so I mean for
me optimism and being an optimist is is
just seeing the silver lining in every
cloud you know even in tragedy it brings
people together and the question is can
we see that can you see can you see the
beauty that is in everything
I don't think optimism is foolishness
I don't think optimism is blindness
though it probably involves some naivete
the belief that things will get better
the belief that that we tend towards the
good even in times of struggle or bad
you know you can't sustain war but you
can sustain peace you know I think I
think things that are are stable are
more sustainable things that are
optimistic are more sustainable than
things that are you know chaotic so you
see people as fundamentally good I mean
some people may disagree that you can't
sus you can sustain peace you can't
sustain war I mean you don't have to you
I think war is costly you know it
involves life and money and peace does
not involve those things it requires
work I'm not saying it doesn't require
work but it it doesn't drain resources I
think the same way that war does you
know the the people that would say that
we will always have war and I just
talked to the story and a Stalin is you
know would say the conflict and the
desire for power and conflict is
essential to human nature is sucker but
something in your words also perhaps
it's the naive aspect that I also share
is that you have an optimism that people
are fundamentally
I'm an idealist you know I and I think
idealism is good I'm not I'm not a fool
to believe that the ideals that I
imagine can come true of course they'll
never be world peace but shouldn't we
die trying
you know I think that's the whole point
that's the point of vision vision should
be idealistic and it should be all
practical purposes impossible but that
doesn't mean we shouldn't try and it's
the it's the milestones that we we reach
that take us closer to that ideal that
make us feel that our life and our work
have meaning and we're contributing to
something bigger than ourselves you know
we just because it's impossible doesn't
mean we shouldn't try as I said we're
still moving the ball down the field
we're still making progress things are
still getting better even if we never
get to that that ideal state so I think
idealism is a is a good thing you know
in the word infinite game one of the
beautiful and tragic aspects of life
human life at least at least from the
biological perspective is that it ends
so sadly into some people yo fine fine
it-it's it's tragic to some people or is
it ends and I think some people believe
that it that it ends on the day you die
and some people think it continues on
theirs and there's a lot of different
ways to think what continues on the
works like but let me drag it back to
the personal church is uh how do you
think about your own mortality are you
afraid of death how do you think about
your own death I definitely haven't
accomplished everything I want to
contribute to I like more time in on
this earth to keep working towards that
vision do you think about the fact that
it ends for you yeah you cognizant of
course I'm cognizant of it I mean not
really all I I don't dwell on it I'm
aware of it I know that my life is
finite and I know that I have a certain
amount of time left on this planet and
I'd like to make that time be valuable
you know some people would think that
ideas kind of allow you to have a
certain kind of immortality you know
maybe to look around this kind of
question so first to push back on you
said that everyone was cognizant of the
mortality there's a guy named Ernest
Becker who would disagree that you
basically say that most of human
cognition is is created by us trying to
create an illusion and try to hide the
fact that from ourselves the fact that
we're gonna die to try to think that
we're it's all gonna go on forever but
the fact that we know that it doesn't
yes but this mix of denial I mean though
I think the book is called denial of
death is this constant and now that
we're running away from a that's uh in
fact some would argue that the
inspiration the incredible ideas you've
put out there your TED talk has been
seen by millions and millions of people
right it's just you trying to
desperately fight the fact that you are
biologically immortal and to the your
creative genius comes from the fact that
you're trying to create ideas that live
on long past you well that's very nice
of you I mean I I I would like my ideas
to live on beyond me because I think
that is a good test that those ideas
have value have value in the lives of
others I think that's a good test that
that others would continue to talk about
or share the ideas long after I'm gone
I think is perhaps the greatest
compliment one can get for one's own
work
it's very but I don't think it's my
awareness of my mortality that drives me
to do it it's my desire to contribute
that drives me to do it this is the
Optima it's the optimist vision it's
it's the the pleasure and the
fulfillment you get from inspiring
others it's just as pure as that it's a
let me ask listen i'm russian i'm trying
to get your good and your good i'm gonna
get get you into these dark areas i'm
enjoying it is the ego tied up into it
somehow so your name is extremely well
known if your name wasn't attached to it
do you think you would act differently i
I mean for years I hated that my name
was attached to it you know I had a rule
for years that I wouldn't have my my
my face on the cover of the front page
of the website you know I had a fight
with the publisher because I didn't want
my name big on the book I wanted a tiny
on the book cuz I kept telling them it's
not about me it's about the ideas they
wanted to put my name at the top of my
book I refused none of my books had my
names on the top because I won't
I won't let them they would like very
much to put my name on the top of the
book but the idea has to be bigger than
me
I'm not bigger than the idea this
beautifully put do you think ego but I
also am aware that I've become I'm
become recognized as the messenger and
even though I still think the message is
bigger than me I recognize that I have a
responsibility as the messenger and
whether I like it or not is irrelevant
I accept I accept the responsibility I'm
happy to do it
I'm not sure how to phrase this but
there's a large part of the culture
right now that emphasizes all the things
that nobody disagrees with which is
health sleep diet relaxation meditation
vacation are really important and
there's no you know it's like you can't
really argue against that in fact people
less sleep that's just I'm joking yes
well that's the thing I often I often
speak to the fact that passion and love
for you do what you're doing and the two
words hard work especially in the
engineering fields are more important
than are more important to prioritize
and sleep even though sleep is really
important your mind should be obsessed
with the hard work with the passion and
so on and then I get some pushback of
course from people what would he make
sense of that is that just me the the
crazy Russian engineer really pushing
hard work probably we yeah I think that
that's a short-term strategy I think if
you sacrifice your health for the work
at some point it catches up with you and
at some point it's like it's like going
going going and you get sick your body
will shut down for you if you refuse to
to take care of yourself you know it's
you get sick it's what happens sometimes
you know more severe illness than
something that just slows you down so I
think I think taking like getting sleep
I mean there have been Studies on
that you know executives for example who
get a full night's sleep and stop at a
reasonable hour actually accomplish more
are more productive than people who work
and burn the midnight oil because their
brains are working better because
they're well rested so you know working
hard yes but what not work smart I think
that giving our minds and our bodies
rest makes us more efficient I think
just driving driving driving driving is
a short term so short term strategy so
but to push back on that a little bit so
the annoying thing is you're like a
hundred percent right right but the
thing is it's because because you're
100% right that weak part of your mind
uses that fact to convince you like what
so you know I I get all kinds of my mind
comes up with all kinds of excuses to
try to convince me that I shouldn't be
doing what I'm doing to rationalize to
rationalize and so what would I have a
sense we you I think what you said about
executives and leaders is absolutely
right but there's the early days the
early days of madness and passion for
sure then I feel like emphasizing sleep
as thinking about a sleep as giving
yourself away out from the fact that
those early days especially is can be
suffering as long it's not sustainable
you know right it's not sustainable sure
if you're investing all that energy in
something at the beginning to get it up
and running then at some point you're
gonna have to slow down or your body
will slow you down for you like you you
can choose your body can choose I mean
so okay so you don't think from my
perspective it feels like people have
gotten a little bit soft but you're
saying no I think I think that there
seems evidence that that that working
harder and later I've taken a back seat
in it I think we have to be careful with
the broad generalizations but but I
think in if you go into the workplace
there are people who would complain that
that more people now than before
you know look at their watches and say
oops five o'clock go by night right now
is that a problem with the people you're
saying it's the people giving themselves
excuses and people don't work hard or is
that the organization's aren't giving
them something to believe in something
to be passionate about we can't
manufacture passion you can't just tell
someone be passionate you know it's not
how it works passions and output not an
input like if I believe in something and
I want to contribute all that energy to
do it we call that passion you know
working hard for something we love is
passion working hard for something we
don't care about it's called stress but
we're working hard either way so I think
I think the organization's bears some
accountability and our leaders bear some
accountability which is if they're not
offering a sense of purpose if they're
not offering us a sense of cause if
they're not telling us that our work is
worth more than simply the money it
makes then yeah I'm gonna come at five
o'clock because I don't really care
about making you money remember we live
in a world right now where a lot of
people rather a few people are getting
rich on the hard work of others and so I
think when when when people look up and
say well why would I do that
I'll just if you're not gonna look after
me and then you're gonna lay me off at
the end of the year because you missed
your arbitrary projections you know
you're gonna lay me off because you
missed your arbitrary projections then
why would I be offer my hard work and
loyalty to you so I think I don't think
we can immediately blame people for
going soft I think we can blame leaders
for their inability or failure to offer
their people something bigger than them
making a product or making money yeah
that's so that's that's brilliant and
start with why leaders elast your books
you kind of you but you basically talk
about what it what it takes to be a good
leader and so some of the blame should
go on the leader but how much of it is
on finding your passion how much is it
on the individual and allowing yourself
to pursue that passion pushing yourself
to your limits to to really take
concrete steps along your path towards
that passion yeah there's mutual
responsibility there's mutual
accountability I mean we we're
responsible as individuals to find the
organization's and find the leaders that
inspire us and organizations are
responsible for maintaining that flame
and
and giving people who believe but they
believed you know a chance to contribute
to linger on it have you by chance seen
the movie whiplash yes again maybe I'm
romanticizing suffering again it's the
Russian in you it's the Russian yeah the
Russians love suffering but so but
people who haven't seen it's the movie
whiplash as a drum instructor that
pushes the drum musician to to his
limits to to bring out the best in him
and there's a toxic nature to it and
they're suffering in it like you've
you've worked a lot of great leaders a
lot of great individuals so what is that
toxic relationship as toxic as it
appears in the movie or is that
fundamental I've seen that relationship
especially in the past with Olympic
athletes with especially in the Flett
extreme performers seem to do wonders it
does wonders for me there's some of them
are my best relationships now I'm not
representative of everyone something for
some of my best relationships form
auntie and mentor have been toxic from
an external perspective I what do you
make of that movie would he make of that
kind of relationship but it's not my
favorite movie okay so you don't think
that's a healthy you don't think that
kind of relationship is a great example
of a great short term strategy I mean
short term I mean look being hard on
someone is not the same as toxicity you
know you know if you go to the Marine
Corps your drill instructor will be very
hard and on their Marines and then but
still even on the last day of boot camp
they'll take their hat off and they'll
become a human but the the of all the
drill instructors that you know the the
the fur the the three or four main but
drill instructors assigned to a group of
recruits the one that they all want the
respect of is the one that's the hardest
on them that's that's true and you hear
you know there's plenty of stories of
people who want to earn the respect of a
hard parent or a hard teacher but
fundamental that parent that teacher
that drill instructor has to believe in
that person has to see potential
it's not it's not a formula which is if
I'm hard on people they'll do well which
is there has to still be love it has to
be done with absolute love and it has to
be done with it has to be done
responsibly I mean some people can take
a little more pressure than others but
it's not I don't I think it's
irresponsible to think of it as a
formula but that I'm just toxic at
people they will they will do well it
depends on their personalities first of
all that works for some but not all and
and second of all it it can't be done
willy-nilly it has to still be done with
with care and love and and sometimes you
could get equal or better results
without all of the toxicity so so one of
the I guess toxicity on my part was a
really bad word to use but if we talk
about what makes a good leader and just
look at an example in particular looking
at Elon Musk he's known to put push
people to the limits in a way that I
think really challenges people in a way
they've never been challenged before to
do the impossible sure but it can really
break people and and jobs was hard and
and Amazon is hard and you know but the
thing that's important is none of them
lie about it you know the you know
people ask me about Amazon all the time
like Jeff Bezos never lied about it you
know even the ones who like Amazon don't
last more than a couple years before
they burn out but when we're honest
about the culture then it gives people
the opportunity who like to work in that
kind of culture to choose to work in
that kind of culture as opposed to
pretending and saying oh no this is all
you know it's all lovey-lovey here and
then you show up and it's it's the
furthest thing from it so I mean if you
know I think the the reputations are
putting a lot of pressure on people to
you know jobs jobs was not an easy man
to work for
he pushed people but everyone who worked
there was given the space to create and
do things that they would not have been
able to do anywhere else and work at a
level that they didn't work anywhere
else and and jobs didn't have all the
answers I mean he pushed his people to
to come up with answers he he he he
wasn't just looking for people to
execute his ideas and and people did
people accomplished more than they
thought they were capable of which is
wonderful
how do you you're talking about the
infinite game and not thinking about to
short-term and yet you see some of the
most brilliant people in the world being
pushed by a llamas to accomplish some of
the most incredible things when we're
talking about autopilot one we're
talking about some of the hardware
engineering and they they do some of the
best work of their life and then leave
how do you balance that in terms of what
it takes to be a good leader what it
takes to accomplish great things in your
life yeah so I think there's a
difference between someone who can get a
lot about it get a lot out of people in
the short term and building an
organization that can sustain beyond any
individual there's a difference when you
say beyond any individual you mean
beyond beyond like if the leader dies
correct like could could Tesla continue
to do what it's doing without Elon Musk
you know and could and you're perhaps
implying which is a very interesting
question that he cannot I don't know you
know the argument you're making of this
this this person who pushes everyone
arguably is not a not a repeatable model
right you know is Apple the same without
Steve Jobs or is it slowly moving in a
different direction or has he
established something that could be
resurrected with the right leader that
was his dream I think it's to have or to
build an organization that lives on
beyond them at least I remember I think
that's what a lot of leaders desire
which is to create something that was
bigger than them you know most
businesses most entrepreneurial ventures
could not pass the school bus test which
is if the founder was hit by school bus
would everyone continue the business
without them or were they all just go
find jobs and the vast majority of
companies would fail that test you know
in in in in especially in the
entrepreneurial world that if you take
the inspired visionary leader away the
whole thing collapses so is that a
business or is that just a force of
personality and a lot of entrepreneurs
you know face that reality which is they
have to be in every meeting make every
decision you know come up with every
idea because if they don't who will
and the question is well what have you
done to build your bench is it it's not
sometimes its ego the belief that only I
can sometimes it's just things got did
so well for so long that just forgot and
sometimes it's a failure to build the
training programs or or hire the right
people that that could replace you who
are maybe smarter and better and
browbeating people is only one strategy
I don't think it's necessarily the only
strategy nor is it always the best
strategy
I think people people get to choose the
cultures they want to work in so this is
why I think I think companies should be
honest about the kind of culture that
they've created you know I heard a story
about Apple where some somebody came in
from a big company you know he'd
accomplished a lot and has ego was very
large and he was going on about how he
did this and he did that and he did this
and he did that and somebody from Apple
said we don't care what you've done the
question is what are you gonna do and
that's that's you know for somebody who
wants to be pushed that's the place you
go because you choose to be pushed now
we all want to be pushed to some degree
you know anybody who wants to yeah you
know accomplish anything in this world
wants to be pushed to some degree
whether it's through self pressure or
external pressure or you know public
pressure whatever it is but I think this
this whole idea of one size fits all is
a false narrative of how leadership
works but what all leadership requires
is creating an environment in which
people can work at their natural best
but you have you have a sense that it's
possible to create a business where it
lives on beyond you know fee if we look
at now if we just look at this current
moment I just recently talked to Jack
Dorsey CEO of Twitter and he's under a
lot of pressure now don't know if you're
aware of the news that he's being pushed
out as in potential as the CEO of
Twitter because he's the CEO of already
of an incredibly successful company plus
he wants to go to Africa
to live a few months in Africa to to
connect with the world that's outside of
the Silicon Valley and sort of there's
this idea well can Twitter live without
jack we'll find out but you have a
general as a student of great leadership
you have a general sense that it's
possible yeah of course it's possible I
mean what Bill Gates built with
Microsoft may not have survived Steve
Ballmer if the company weren't so rich
but such a nerd Allah is putting it back
on an on track again it's become a
visionary company again it's attracting
great talent again it went through a
period where they couldn't get better
the best talent and the best talent was
leaving now people want to work for
Microsoft again well that's not because
of pressure Ballmer put more pressure on
people mainly to hit numbers than
anything else that didn't work yes right
and so the question is what kind of
pressure are we putting on people we're
putting on pressure people to hit
numbers or hit hit arbitrary deadlines
or putting on pressure on people because
we believe that they can do better work
and the work that we're trying to do is
to advance a vision that's bigger than
all of us and if you're gonna put
pressure on people it better be for the
right reason like if you're gonna put
pressure on me it better be for a
worthwhile reason if it's just to hit a
goal if it's just to hit some arbitrary
date or some arbitrary number or make a
stock price hit some target you can keep
it I'm out of here
yes but if you want to put pressure on
me because we are are we are brothers
and sisters-in-arms working to advance a
cause bigger than ourselves that we
believe whatever we're gonna build will
significantly contribute to the greater
good of society then go ahead I'll take
the pressure and if you look at the
apples and you look at the the the the
the the Elon Musk's you know the jobs in
the Elan musk they fundamentally believe
that what they were doing would improve
Society and and it was for the good of
humankind and so the pressure in other
words the the the what they were doing
was more important more valuable than
any individual in the team and so the
pressure they put on people served a
greater good and so we we we we looked
to the left and we looked to the right
to each other and said we're in this
together we accept this
we want this but if it's just pressure
to hit a number or you know make the
widget and move a little faster
yeah and that's soul-sucking that's not
passion that's stress and I think a lot
of leaders confuse that making people
work hard is not what makes them
passionate giving them something to
believe in and work on is what drives
passion and when you have that then
turning up the pressure only brings
people together
Dresden if I've done the right way done
the right way
speaking of pressure thank you I'm gonna
give you 90 seconds to answer the last
question which is if I told you that
tomorrow was your last day to live and
talk about mortality sunrise to sunset
can you tell me can you take me through
the day what do you think that day would
involve you can't spend it with your
family oh joy as well I would probably
want to fill all of my senses with
things that excite my senses I'd want to
look at beautiful art I want to listen
to beautiful music I'd want to taste
incredible food I'd want to smell
amazing tastes I'd want to touch you
know something that you know something
that's beautiful to touch I'd want all
of my senses to just be consumed with
with things that I find beautiful and
you talked about this idea of we don't
do it often these days they're just
listening to music turning off all the
devices and actually taking in and
listening to music so as a addendum
before it to talk about music what song
would you be blasting in this last day
you're alive let's zap 'ln what do we
hope that I love no no there's probably
going to be a Beatles song in there
that'll definitely be some Beethoven in
there the classics the clown guy yeah
exactly
thank you so much for talking to you
thank you for making time for it under
pressure
we made a hat it was great
thanks for listening to this
conversation with simon Sinek and thank
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Friedman and now let me leave you with
some words from simon Sinek there are
only two ways to influence human
behavior you can manipulate it or you
can inspire it thank you for listening I
hope to see you next time
you