Kind: captions
Language: en
the following is a conversation with
Michael Stevens the creator of Vsauce
one of the most popular educational
YouTube channels in the world with over
15 million subscribers and over 1.7
billion views his videos often ask and
answer questions that are both profound
and entertaining spanning topics from
physics to psychology
popular questions include what if
everyone jumped at once or what if the
Sun disappeared or why are things creepy
or what if the earth stopped spinning as
part of his channel he created three
seasons of minefield a series that
explored human behavior his curiosity
and passion are contagious and inspiring
to millions of people and so as an
educator has impacted contribution to
the world is truly immeasurable this is
the artificial intelligence podcast if
you enjoy it subscribe I need to give
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and now here's my conversation with
Michael Stevens one of your deeper
interests is psychology understanding
human behavior you've pointed out how
messy studying human behavior is and
it's far from the scientific rigor of
something like physics for example how
do you think who can take psychology
from where it's been in the 20th century
to something more like what the
physicists theoretical physicists are
doing something precise something
rigorous well we we could do it by
finding the physical foundations of
psychology right if if all of our
emotions and moods and feelings and
behaviors are the result of mechanical
behaviors of atoms and molecules in our
brains then can we find correlations
perhaps like chaos makes that really
difficult and the uncertainty principle
and all these things like we can't know
the position and velocity of every
single you know quantum state in a brain
probably but I think that if we you know
can get to that point with psychology
then we can start to think about
consciousness in a physical and and
mathematical way when we ask questions
like well what is self reference how can
you think about yourself thinking what
are some mathematical structures that
could bring that about there's ideas of
in terms of consciousness and breaking
it down into a physics there's ideas of
pants like ism where people believe that
whatever consciousness is is a
fundamental part of reality it's almost
like a physics law do you think what's
your views on consciousness do you think
it has this this deep part of reality or
is it something that's deeply human and
constructed by us humans start nice and
light yeah an easy easy I think I asked
you today has
actually proven answer so yeah
hypothesis so yeah I mean I should
clarify this is all speculation yeah and
I'm not an expert in any of these talk
to topics and I'm not God but I think
that consciousness is probably um
something that can be fully explained
within the laws of physics I think that
our you know bodies and brains and and
the universe and and at the quantum
level is so rich and complex
I'd be surprised if we couldn't find a
room for consciousness there and why
should we be conscious why are we aware
of ourselves that is a very strange and
interesting and important question and I
think for the next few thousand years
we're going to have to believe in
answers purely on faith but my guess is
that we will find that you know within
the configuration space of possible
arrangements of the universe there are
some that contain memories of others
literally uh Julian Barbour calls them
time capsule states where you're like
yeah not only do I have a scratch on my
arm but also this state of the universe
also contains a memory in my head of
being scratched by my cat three days ago
and for some reason those kinds of
states of the universe are more
plentiful or more likely when you say
those states the ones would that contain
memories of its past or ones that
contain memories of its past and have
degrees of consciousness just the first
part because the I think the
consciousness then emerges from the fact
that a state of the universe that
contains fragments or memories of other
states is one where you're going to feel
like there's time you're going to feel
like yeah things in the happened in the
past and I don't know what'll happen in
the future because these states don't
contain information about the future for
some reason those kind of states are
either more common more plentiful or you
could use the anthropic principle
just say well they're extremely rare but
until you are in one or if you are in
one then you can ask questions like you
you're asking me on this podcast slide
questions but yeah it's like what why
are we conscious well because if we
weren't we wouldn't be asking why we
were you've kind of implied that you
have a sense again hypothesis theorizing
that the universe is deterministic
what's your thoughts about freewill do
you think of the universe is
deterministic in a sense that it's
unrolling in particular like there's a
it's operating under a specific set of
physical laws and when you have to set
the initial conditions it will unroll in
the exact same way in our particular
line of the universe every time that is
a very useful way to think about the
universe it's done as well it's brought
us to the moon it's brought us to where
we are today right I would not say that
I believe in determinism in that kind of
an absolute form or actually I just
don't care maybe it's true but I'm not
gonna live my life like it is what in
your son's because you've studied kind
of how we humans think of the world
what's in your view is the difference
between our perception like how we think
the world is in reality do you think
there's a huge gap there like we delude
ourselves as the whole thing is an
illusion just everything about human
psychology the way we see things and how
things actually are all the things
you've studied what's your sense how big
is the gap between reality well sin
purely speculative I think that we will
never know the answer we cannot know the
answer there is no experiment to find an
answer to that question everything we
experience is an event in our brain when
I look at a cat I'm not even I can't
prove that there's a cat there all I am
experiencing is the perception of a cat
inside my own brain I am only a witness
to the events of my mind I think it is
very useful to infer that if I witness
the event of cat
in my head it's because I'm looking at a
cat that is literally there and has its
own feelings and motivations and should
be pet and given food and water and love
I think that's the way you should live
your life but whether or not we live in
a simulation I'm a brain-in-a-vat I
don't know and do care mmm I don't
really well I care because it's a
fascinating question and it's a
fantastic way to get people excited
about all kinds of topics physics
psychology consciousness philosophy but
at the end of the day what would the
difference be if you the cat needs to be
fed at the end of the day otherwise
it'll be a dead cat right but if it's
not even a real cat then it's just like
a video game cat and right so what's the
difference between killing a a digital
cat in a video game because of neglect
versus a real cat it seems very
different to us psychologically like I
don't really feel bad about oh my gosh I
forgot to feed my Tamagotchi right but I
would feel terrible if I forgot to feed
my actual cats so can you just touch on
the topic of simulation do you find this
thought experiment that we're living in
a simulation useful inspiring a
constructive in any kind of way do you
think it's ridiculous do you think it
could be true or is it just a useful
thought experiment I think it is
extremely useful as a thought experiment
because it makes sense to everyone
especially as we see virtual reality and
computer games getting more and more
complex you're not talking to an
audience in like Newton's time where
you're like imagine a clock that it has
mechanics in it that are so complex that
it can create love and everyone's like
no but today you really start to feel
you know man at what point is this
little robot friend of mine gonna be
like someone I don't want to cancel
plans with yeah you know and so it's a
great the thought experiment of do we
live in a simulation am i a brain and a
bat that has just been given electrical
impulses from some nefarious
other beans so that I believe that I
live on earth and that I have a body and
all of this and the fact that you can't
prove it either way is a fantastic way
to introduce people to some of the
deepest questions so you mentioned a
little buddy that you would want to
cancel an appointment with so that's a
lot of our conversations that's where my
research is artificial intelligence and
I apologize but you're such a fun person
to ask these big questions with well I
hope I could give some answers that are
interesting well because because of
you've sharpened your brain's ability to
explore some of the most some of the
questions then many signs is actually
afraid of even touching which is
fascinating and I think you're in that
sense ultimately a great scientist
through this process of sharpening your
brain well I don't know if I am a
scientist I think you know science is a
way of knowing and there are a lot of
questions I investigate that are not
scientific questions on like minefield
we have definitely done scientific
experiments and studies that had
hypotheses and all that but you know not
to be too like Precious about what does
the word science mean but I think I
would just describe myself as curious
and I hope that that curiosity is
contagious so to you the scientific
method is deeply connected to science
because your curiosity took you to
asking questions to me asking a good
question
even if you feel society feels that it's
not a question within the reach of
science currently to me that asking the
question is the biggest step of the
scientific process the scientific method
is the second part and that may be what
traditionally is called science but to
me asking the questions being brave
enough to ask the questions being
curious and not constrained by what
you're supposed to think is is just true
or what it means to be a scientist to me
it's certainly a huge part of what it
means to be a human if I were to say you
know what I don't believe in forces I
think that when I push on
a massive object a ghost leaves my body
and enters the object I'm pushing and
these ghosts happen to just get really
lazy when they're around massive things
and that's why F equals MA oh and by the
way the laziness of the ghost is in
proportion to the mass of the object so
boom prove me wrong every experiment
well you can never find the ghost and so
none of that theory is scientific but
once I start saying can I see the ghost
Why should there be a ghost and if there
aren't ghosts what might I expect and I
start to do different tests to see is
this falsifiable are there things that
should happen if there are ghosts or
things that shouldn't happen and do they
you know what do I observe now I'm
thinking scientifically I don't think of
science as wow a picture of a black hole
that's just a photograph that's an image
that's data that's a sensory and
reception experience science is how we
got that and how we understand it and
how we believe in it and how we reduce
our uncertainty around what it means but
I would say I'm deeply within the
scientific community and and sometimes
disheartened by the elitism of the
thinking sort of not allowing yourself
to think outside the box so allowing the
possibility of going against the
conventions asides I think is is a
beautiful part some of the greatest
scientists in history I don't know I
I'm impressed by scientists every day
and revolutions in our knowledge of the
world occur
only under very special circumstances it
is very scary to challenge conventional
thinking and and and risky because let's
go back to elitism and ego right if you
just say you know what I believe in the
spirits of my body and all forces are
actually created by invisible creatures
that that that transfer themselves
between objects
if you ridicule every other theory and
say that you're what you're you're
correct then ego gets involved and you
just don't go anywhere but the
fundamentally the question of well what
is a force isn't incredibly important we
need to have that conversation but it
needs to be done in this very political
way of like let's be respectful of
everyone and let's realize that we're
all learning together and not shutting
out other people and so when you look at
a lot of revolutionary ideas they were
not accepted right away and you know
Galileo had a couple of problems with
the authorities and later thinkers
Descartes was like all right look I kind
of agree with Galileo but I'm gonna have
to not say that I'll have to create and
invent and write different things that
keep me from being in trouble but we
still slowly made progress revolutions
are difficult in all forms and certainly
in science before we get to AI on topic
of revolutionary ideas let me ask on a
reddit AMA you said that is the earth
flat is one of the favorite questions
you've ever answer yeah speaking of
revolutionary ideas so your video on
that people should definitely watch is
really fascinating can you elaborate why
you enjoyed answering this question so
much yeah well it's a long story I
remember a long time ago I was living in
New York at the time so had to have been
like 2009 or something I visited the
Flat Earth forums and this was before
the Flat Earth theories became as sort
of mainstream as they are I'm sorry to
ask the dumb question forums online
forums yeah okay the Flat Earth Society
I don't know if it's con org but
went there and I was reading you know
their ideas and how they responded to
typical criticisms of well the earth
isn't flat because what about this and I
could not tell and I mentioned this in
my video I couldn't tell how many of
these community members actually
believed the earth was flat or were just
trolling and I realized that the
fascinating thing is how do we know
anything and what makes for a good
belief versus a maybe not so tenable or
good belief and so that's really what my
video about earth being flat is about
it's about look there are a lot of
reasons the earth is probably not flat
but a Flat Earth believer can respond to
every single one of them but it's all in
an ad hoc way and all of these all their
rebuttals aren't necessarily gonna form
a cohesive noncontradictory whole and I
believe that's the episode where I talk
about Occam's razor and Newton's flaming
laser sword and then I say well you know
what wait a second we know that space
contracts as you move and so to a
particle moving near the speed of light
towards Earth earth would be flattened
in the direction of that particles
travel so to them earth is flat like we
need to be you know really generous to
even wild ideas because they're all
thinking they're all the communication
of ideas and what else can it mean to be
a human yeah and I think I'm a huge fan
of the Flat Earth theory quote-unquote
in the sense that to me feels harmless
to explore some of the questions of what
it means to believe something what it
means to explore the edge of science and
so on it's because it's a harm it's to
me nobody gets hurt whether the earth is
flat or round not literally but I mean
intellectually when we're just having a
conversation that said again to elitism
I find that scientists roll their eyes
way too fast on the Flat Earth the kind
of dismissal that I see to this you
of an ocean they haven't like sat down
and say what are the arguments they're
being proposed and this is why these
arguments incorrect so this is you know
that should be something that scientists
should always do even to the most sort
of ideas that seem ridiculous so I like
this is almost it's almost my test when
I ask people what they think about Flat
Earth theory to see how quickly they
roll their eyes
well yeah I mean let me go on record
yeah and say that the earth is not flat
it is a three-dimensional spheroid
however I don't know that and it has not
been proven signs doesn't prove anything
it just reduces uncertainty could the
earth actually be flat extremely
unlikely yes extremely unlikely and so
it is a ridiculous notion if we care
about how probable and certain our ideas
might be but I think it's incredibly
important to talk about science in that
way and to not resort to well it's true
it's true in the same way that a
mathematical theorem is true and I think
we're kind of like being pretty pedantic
about defining this stuff but like sure
I could take a rocket ship out and I
could sorbets earth and look at it and
it would look like a ball right but I
still can't prove that I'm not living in
a simulation that i'm not a
brain-in-a-vat that this isn't all an
elaborate ruse created by some
technologically advanced
extraterrestrial civilization right so
there's always some doubt and that's
fine that's exciting and I think that
kind of doubt practically speaking is
useful when you start talking about
quantum mechanics or string theory sort
of it helps to me that kind of little
adds a little spice into the thinking
process of scientists so I mean just I
just as a thought experiment your video
kind of okay say the earth is flat
what would the forces when you walk
about this flat or earth feel like
- the human that's a really nice thought
experiment to think about right cuz
what's really nice about it is that it's
it's a funny thought experiment but you
actually wind up accidentally learning a
whole lot about gravity and about
relativity and geometry and I think
that's really the goal of what I'm doing
I'm not trying to like convince people
that the earth is round I feel like you
either believe that it is or you don't
and like that's you know how can I
change that yeah what I can do is change
how you think and how you are introduced
to important concepts like well how does
gravity operate oh it's all about the
center of mass of an object so right on
a sphere we're all pulled towards the
middle essentially the centroid
geometrically but on a disk ooh you're
gonna be pulled at a weird angle if
you're out near the edge and that
stuff's fascinating yeah and to me
that's that that was that that
particular video opened my eyes even
more to what gravity is it's just a
really nice visualization to love
because you always imagine gravity was
spheres with masses that are spheres
yeah and imagining gravity on masses
that are not spherical some some other
shape but in here a plate a flat object
is really interesting it makes you
really kind of visualizing it they're
much a way the force yeah even if a disc
the size of Earth would be impossible
I think anything larger than like the
moon basically needs to be a sphere
because gravity will round it out so you
can't have a teacup the size of Jupiter
right there's a great book about a
teacup in the universe that
highly recommend I don't remember the
author I forget her name but it's a
wonderful book so look it up
I think it's called teacup in the
universe still linked on this point
briefly your videos are generally super
people love them right if you look at
the sort of number of likes versus
dislikes it's this measure of YouTube
right is incredible and as do I but this
particular Flat Earth video has more
dislikes that than usual what what are
you on that topic in general what's your
sense how big is the community not just
who believes in Flat Earth but sort of
the anti scientific community that
naturally distrust scientists in a way
that's that's not an open-minded way
like really just distrust scientists
like they're bought by some place
they're kind of mechanism of the some
kind of bigger system that's trying to
manipulate him ins what's your sense of
the size of that community you're one of
the sort of great educators in the world
that educates people on the exciting
power of science so you're kind of up
against this community what's your sense
of it i I really have no idea I haven't
looked at the likes and dislikes on the
Flat Earth video and so I would wonder
if it has a greater percentage of
dislikes than usual is that because of
people disliking it because they you
know think that it's a video about earth
being flat and they find that ridiculous
and they just like it without even
really watching much do they wish that I
was more like dismissive of this latter
theories yeah that's awesome I know
there are a lot of response videos that
kind of go through the episode and are
pro Flat Earth mm-hmm but I don't know
if there's a larger community of
unorthodox thinkers today than there
have been in the past okay and I just
want to not lose them I want them to
keep listening and thinking and by
calling them all you know
idiots
or something like that is no good
because how idiotic are they really I
mean the earth isn't a sphere at all
like we know that it's an oblate
spheroid and that in and of itself is
really interesting and I investigated
that in which way is down where I'm like
really down does not point towards the
center of the earth
it's it points in a different direction
depending on what's underneath you and
what's above you and what's around you
the whole universe is is tugging on me
and then you also show that gravity is
non-uniform work across the globe like
if you just gues thought experiment if
you build a bridge all the way and all
the way across the earth and then just
knock out its pillars what would happen
yeah and you described how it would be
like a very chaotic unstable thing
that's happening because gravity is
non-uniform all throughout the earth
yeah in small spaces like the ones we
work in we can essentially assume that
gravity is uniform but it's not it is
weaker the further you are from the
earth and it also is going to be it's
it's radially pointed towards the middle
of the earth so a really large object
will feel tidal forces because of that
non-uniform this and we can take
advantage of that with satellites right
gravitational induced torque it's a
great way to align your satellite
without having to use fuel or any kind
of you know engine so let's jump back to
it artificial intelligence what's your
thought of the state of where we are at
currently with artificial intelligence
and what do you think it takes to build
human level or superhuman level
intelligence I don't know what
intelligence means that's my biggest
question at the moment and it's I think
it's cuz my instinct is always to go
well what are the foundations here of
our discussion what does it mean to be
intelligent how do we measure the
intelligence of an artificial machine or
a program or something can we say that
humans are intelligent because there's
also a fascinating field of how do you
measure human intelligence of course but
if we just take that for granted saying
that the whatever this fuzzy
intelligence thing we're talking about
humans kind of have it what would be a
good test for you for touring develop a
test that's natural language
conversation would that impress you
a chatbot that you'd want to hang out
and have a beer with of you know for a
bunch of hours or have dinner plans with
with is that a good test natural energy
conversation is there something else
that would impress you or is that also
to differ yeah I'm pretty much impressed
by everything well I think if Roomba if
there was a chat bot that was like
incredibly and I don't know really had a
personality and I if I didn't be the the
Turing test right like if I'm unable to
tell that it's not another person but
then I was shown a bunch of wires and
mechanical components and then it was
like that's actually what's you're
talking to I don't know if I would feel
that guilty destroying it I would feel
guilty because clearly it's well-made
and it's a really cool thing
it's like destroying a really cool car
or something but I would not feel like I
was a murderer so yeah at what point
would I start to feel that way and and
this is such a subjective psychological
question if you give it movement or if
you have it mmm act as though or perhaps
really feel pain as I destroy it and
scream and resist then I'd feel that
yeah that's beautifully put and let's
just say act like it's in pain so if you
just have a robot that it's not screams
just like moans in pain if you kick it
yeah that immediately just puts it in a
class that we humans it becomes it we
anthropomorphize it almost immediately
it becomes human yeah that psychology
question as opposed to sort of a physics
question right I think that's a really
good instinct to have you know if the
robot screams screams and and and moans
even if you don't believe that it has
the mental experience the qualia of pain
and suffering I think it's still a good
instinct to say you know what I'd rather
not hurt it the problem is that instant
can get us in trouble because then
robots can manipulate that and you know
there's different kinds of robots as
robots like the Facebook and the YouTube
algorithm that recommends the video and
they can manipulate in the same kind of
way well let me ask you just to stick on
artificial intelligence for a second do
you have worries about existential
threats from AI or extension tests from
other technologies like nuclear weapons
that could potentially destroy life on
Earth or damage it to a very significant
degree yeah of course I do
especially the weapons that we create
there's all kinds of famous ways to
think about this and one is that Wow
what if we don't see advanced alien
civilizations because of the danger of
Technology what if we reach a point and
I think there's a channel-body to cheese
I wish I remember the name of the
channel but he delves into this this
kind of limit of maybe once you discover
radioactivity and its power you've
reached this important hurdle and the
reason that the skies are so empty is
that no one's ever like managed to
survive as a civilization once they have
that destructive power and when it comes
to AI I'm not really very worried
because I think that there are plenty of
other people that are already worried
enough and oftentimes these worries are
just they just get in the way of
progress and they're there questions
that we should address later and you
know I think I talked about this in my
interview with the self-driving
autonomous vehicle guy as I think it was
a bonus scene from the trolley problem
episode and I'm like wow what should a
car do if like this really weird
contrived scenario happens where it has
to like swerve and like save the driver
but kill a kid and he's like well you
know what would a human do and if we
resist technological progress because
we're worried about all of these little
issues then it gets in the way and we
shouldn't avoid those problems but we
shouldn't allow them to be stumbling
blocks
- advancement so the you know folks like
Sam Harris or Elon Musk are saying that
we're not worried enough so worried
should not paralyze technological
progress but we're sort of marching
technologies marching forward without
the key scientists the developing and
technology worrying about the overnight
having some effects that would be very
detrimental to society so the push back
on your thought of the idea that there's
enough people worrying about it Elon
Musk says there's not enough people
worrying about it I think that's the
kind of balances you know it's like
folks to who really focused on nuclear
deterrence are saying there's not enough
people worried about nuclear deterrence
right so it's an interesting question of
what is a good threshold of people to
worry about these and if it's too many
people that are worried you're right
it'll be like the the press would over
report on it and there'll be
technological halt technology progress
if not enough then we can march straight
ahead into that abyss that human beings
might be destined for with the progress
of technology yeah I don't know what the
right balance is of how many people
should be worried and how worried should
they be but we're always worried about
new technology you know we know that
Plato was worried about the written word
he's like we shouldn't teach people to
write because then they won't use their
minds to remember things there there
have been concerns over technology and
its advancement since the beginning of
recorded history and so you know I think
however these conversations are really
important to have because again we learn
a lot about ourselves if we're really
scared of some kind of AI like coming
into being that is conscious or whatever
and and can self-replicate
we already do that every day it's called
humans being born they're not artificial
they're they're they're humans but
they're intelligent and I don't want to
live in a world where we're worried
about babies being born because what if
they become evil right what if they
become mean people what if they what if
they're thieves maybe we should just
like what not have
babies born like maybe we shouldn't
create AI it's like you know we will
want to have safeguards in place yeah in
the same way that we know look a kid
could be born that becomes some kind of
evil person but we have loss right and
it's possible that with advantage in
etics and general be able to you know
it's a scary thought to say that you
know the this my child
if born would be would have an 83%
chance of being a psychopath right like
being able to if it's something genetic
if there's some sort of and what to use
that information what to do with that
information is a difficult ethical yeah
I'd like to find an answer that isn't
well let's not have them live you know
I'd like to find an answer that is well
all human life is worthy and if you have
an 83% chance of becoming a psychopath
well you still deserve dignity yeah and
you still deserve to be treated well and
a you still have rights
at least at this part of the world at
least in America there's a respect for
individual life in that way that's well
to me but again I'm in this bubble is a
beautiful thing but there's other
cultures or individual human life is not
that important that we're a society so I
was born in Soviet Union where the
strength of nation and society together
is more important than the any one
particular individual there's an
interesting also notion the stories we
tell ourselves I like the one where
individuals matter but it's unclear that
that was what the future holds well yeah
and I mean let me even throw this out
like what is artificial intelligence how
can it be artificial I really think that
we get pretty obsessed and stuck on the
idea that there is some thing that is a
wild human a pure human organism without
technology but I don't think that's a
real thing
I think that humans and human technology
are one or
Gizem look at my glasses okay if an
alien came down and saw me would they
necessarily know that this is an
invention that I don't grow these
organically from my body they wouldn't
know that right away and the written
word and spoons and cups these are all
pieces of technology we are not alone as
an organism and so the technology we
create whether it be video games or
artificial intelligence that can
self-replicate and hate us it's actually
all the same organism I when you're in a
car where do you end in the car begin it
seems like a really easy question to
answer but the more you think about it
the more you realize wow we are in this
symbiotic relationship with our
inventions and there are plenty of
people who are worried about it and
there should be but it's it's inevitable
and I think the even just us think of
ourselves as individual intelligences
maybe silly notion because you know it's
much better to think of the entirety of
human civilization living all living
organs on earth as a single living
organism right as a single intelligent
creature because you're right
everything's intertwined everything is
deeply connected so we mention Elon Musk
see you're a curious lover of science
what do you think of the efforts that
Elon Musk is doing with space
exploration with electric vehicles with
autopilot sort of getting into the space
of autonomous vehicles was boring under
la and neural link trying to communicate
brain machine interfaces communicate
between machines and human brains well
it's really inspiring I mean look at the
fandom that he's amassed it's it's not
common for someone like that to have
such a following until you're a nerd
yeah so it's really it's really exciting
but I also think that a lot of
responsibility comes with that kind of
power so like if I met him I would love
to hear how he feels about the
responsibility he has when when there
our people who are such a fan of your
ideas and your dreams and share them so
closely with you you have a lot of power
and he didn't always have that you know
he wasn't born as Elon Musk's well he
was but well he was named that later but
the point is that that that I I want to
know the psychology of becoming a figure
like him well I don't even know how to
phrase the question right but it's a
question about what do you do when you
were you're following your fans become
so you know large that it's almost
bigger than you and how do you how do
you responsibly manage that and maybe it
doesn't worry him at all and that's fine
too but I'd be really curious and I
think there are a lot of people that go
through this when they realize whoa
there are a lot of eyes on me there are
a lot of people who really take what I
say very earnestly and and take it to
heart and will defend me and who that's
that's some that that can be dangerous
and and you have to be responsible with
it both in terms of impact in society
and psychologically for the individual
just just the the burden psychologically
Annie on yeah yeah how does he how does
he think about that part of his persona
well let me throw that right back at you
because in some ways you're just a funny
guy that gotten a humongous following a
funny guy with a curiosity mm-hmm
you've got a huge following how do you
psychologically deal with the
responsibility in many ways you ever
reach in many ways bigger than you are
musk what is your what is the burden
that you feel in educating being one of
the biggest educators in the world where
everybody's listening to you and
actually everybody like that most of the
world that uses YouTube for educational
material trust you as a source of good
strong scientific thinking it's a burden
and
I try to approach it with a lot of
humility and sharing like I'm not out
there doing a lot of scientific
experiments I am sharing the work of
real scientists and I'm celebrating
their work and the way that they think
and the power of curiosity but I want to
make it clear at all times that like
look you know we don't know all the
answers and I don't think we're ever
going to reach a point where we're like
wow and there you go that's the universe
it's this equation you plug in some
conditions or whatever and you do the
math and you know what's gonna happen
tomorrow I don't think we're gonna reach
that point but I I think that there is a
tendency to sometimes believe in science
and become elitist and become I don't
know hard when in reality it should
humble you and make you feel smaller I
think there's something very beautiful
about feeling very very small and very
weak and to feel that you need other
people hmm so I try to keep that in mind
and say look thanks for watching Vsauce
is not I'm not Vsauce
you are when I start the episodes I say
hey Vsauce Michael here
Vsauce and Michaels are actually a
different thing in my mind I don't know
if that's always clear but yeah I have
to approach it that way because it's not
about me yeah so it's not even you're
not feeling the responsibility you're
just sort of plugging into this big
thing that is scientific exploration of
our reality and you're a voice that
represents a bunch but you're just
plugging into this big Vsauce ball that
others millions of others have plugged
into yeah I'm just hoping to encourage
curiosity and you know we're responsible
thinking and an embracement of doubt and
being okay with that so next week
talking to Chris Osgood row I'm not sure
if you familiar who he is but he's the
VP of engineering head of the quote
unquote YouTube algorithm this search
and Discovery's yeah
let me ask first high level do you have
do you have a question
for him that if you can get an ounce
honest answer that you would ask but
more generally how do you think about
the YouTube algorithm that drives some
of the motivation behind not know some
of the design decisions you make as you
ask and answer some of the questions you
do how would you improve this algorithm
in your mind in general so just the what
would you ask him and outside of that
how would you like to see the algorithm
improve well I think of the algorithm as
a mirror it reflects what people put in
and we don't always like what we see in
that mirror
from the individual mirror to the
individual Meritor of the society both
in the aggregate it's reflecting back
what people on average want to watch and
when you see things being recommended to
you it's reflecting back what it thinks
you want to see and specifically I would
guess that it's not just what you want
to see but what you will click on and
what you will watch some of and stay on
YouTube because of I don't think that is
all me guessing but I don't think that
YouTube cares if you only watch like a
second of a video as long as the next
thing you do is open another video if
you close the app or close the site
that's a problem for them because
they're not a subscription platform
they're not like look you're giving us
20 bucks a month no matter what so who
cares they need you to watch and spend
time there and see ads so what one of
the things I'm curious about whether
they do consider longer term sort of
develop you your longer-term development
as a human being which I think
ultimately will make you feel better
about using YouTube in the long term and
allowing you to stick with it for longer
because even if you feed the dopamine
rush in the short-term and you keep
clicking on cat videos the eventually
you sort of wake up like from a drug and
say I need to quit this so I wonder how
much they're trying to optimize for the
long term because when I look at the you
know your videos aren't
and sort of no offense but they're not
the most clickable they're both the most
clickable and I feel I watch the entire
thing and I feel a better human after I
watch it right so like they're not for
just optimizing for the click ability is
I hope so my thought is how do you think
of it and this would affect your own
content like how deep you go how
profound you explore the directions and
so on I I've been really lucky in that I
don't worry too much about the algorithm
I mean look at my thumbnails I don't
really go too wild with them and with
minefield where I'm in partnership with
YouTube on the thumbnails I'm often like
let's pull this back let's be mysterious
but usually I'm just trying to do what
everyone else is not doing so if
everyone's doing crazy Photoshop kind of
thumbnails I'm like what if the
thumbnails just align yeah and what if
the title is just a word yeah and I I
kind of feel like all of the Vsauce
channels of cultivating an audience that
expects that and so they would rather
Jake make a video that's just called
stains then one called I explored stains
is shocking yeah but there are other
audiences out there that want that and
you know I think most people kind of we
don't want what you see the algorithm
favoring which is mainstream traditional
celebrity and news kind of information I
mean that's what makes YouTube really
different than other streaming platforms
no one's like what's going on in the
world I'll open up Netflix to find out
but you do open up Twitter to find that
out you open up Facebook you can open up
YouTube because you'll see that the
trending videos are like what happened
amongst the traditional mainstream
people in different industries and
that's what's being shown and it's it's
not necessarily YouTube saying we want
that to be what you see it's that that's
what people click on when they see
ariana grande you know reads a love
letter from like her high school
sweetheart they're like I want to see
that
and when they see a video from me that's
got some lines in math and it's called
law and causes they're like well I mean
that I'm just on the bus like I don't
have time to dive into a whole lesson so
you know before
get super mad at YouTube you should say
really they're just reflecting back
human behavior is there something you
would improve about the algorithm
knowing of course that as far as we're
concerned it's a black box or don't know
how it works right and I don't think
that even anyone at YouTube really knows
what it's doing they know what they've
tweaked but then it learns I think that
it learns and it decides how to behave
and sometimes there the YouTube
employees are left going I don't know
maybe we should like change the value of
how much it you know worries about watch
time and maybe it should worry more
about something I don't know but I mean
I would like to see I don't know what
they're doing and not doing well is
there a conversation that you think they
should be having just internally whether
they're having it or not is there
something should they be thinking about
the long-term future should they be
thinking about educational content and
whether that's educating about what just
happened in the world today news or
educational content like what you're
providing which is asking big to have
timeless questions about how the way the
world works
well it's interesting like what should
they think about because it's called
YouTube not our tube and if that's why I
think they have so many phenomenal
educational creators yes you don't have
shows like three blue one brown or
physics girl or Looking Glass universe
or up an atom or brain scoop or I mean I
could go on and on they aren't on amazon
prime and netflix and and they don't
have Commission shows from those
platforms it's all organically happening
because there are people out there that
want to share their passion for learning
that want to share their curiosity and
YouTube could you know promote those
kinds of shows more but like first of
all they probably wouldn't get as many
clicks and YouTube needs to make sure
that the average user is always clicking
and staying on the site they could still
promote it more for the good of society
but then we're making some really weird
claims about what's good for society
because I think that cat videos are also
an incredibly important part of what it
means to be a human
I mentioned this quote before from
unamuno about look I've seen a cat
estimate distances and calculate a jump
you know more often and I've seen a cat
cry and so things that that play with
our emotions and make us feel things can
be cheesy and can feel cheap but like
man that's very human and so even the
dumbest vlog is still so important that
I don't think it I have a better claim
to take its spot than it has to have
that spot so it puts a mirror to us the
beautiful parts the ugly parts the
shallow parts the Jeep ours you're right
what I would like to see is you know I
miss the days when engaging with content
on YouTube helped push it into my
subscribers timelines it used to be that
when I liked a video say from veritasium
it would show up in the feed on the
front page of the app or the website of
my subscribers and I knew that if I
liked a video I could send it a hundred
thousand views or more that no longer is
true but I think that was a good user
experience when I subscribe to someone
when I'm following them I want to see
more of what they like I want them to
also curate the feed for me and I think
that Twitter and Facebook are doing that
and also some ways that are kind of
annoying but I would like that to happen
more and I think we would see
communities being stronger on YouTube if
it was that way instead of YouTube going
well technically Michael like this
veritasium video but people are way more
likely to click on carpool karaoke so I
don't even care who they are just given
that not saying anything against carpool
karaoke that is a extremely important
part of our society what it means to be
a human on earth you know but I'll say
it sucks but uh yeah but a lot of people
would disagree with you and they should
be able to see as much of that as they
want yes and even people who don't think
they like it should still be really
aware of it because it's such an
important thing and such an influential
thing but yeah I just wish that like new
channels I discover and that I subscribe
to I wish that my subscribers found out
about that because especially in the
education community a rising tide floats
all boats if you watch a video from
number file you're just more likely to
want to watch an episode from me whether
it be on Vsauce
one or ding it's not it's not
competitive in the way that traditional
TV was where it's like well if you tuned
in to that show it means you're not
watching mine because they both air at
the same time so helping each other out
through collaborations takes a lot of
work but just through engaging
commenting on their videos liking their
videos subscribing to them whatever that
I would love to see become easier and
more powerful so a quick and impossibly
deep question last question about
mortality you've spoken about death as
an interesting topic do you think about
your own mortality
yeah every day it's really scary so what
do you think is the meaning of life that
mortality makes very explicit so why are
you here on earth Michael what's the
point of this whole thing what you know
what does mortality in the context of
the whole universe make you realize
about yourself just you Michael Stevens
well it makes me realize that I am
destined to become an ocean I'm destined
to become a memory and we can extend
life I think there's really exciting
things being done to extend life but we
still don't know how to like you know
protect you from some accident that
could happen you know some unforeseen
thing maybe we could like save my
connectome and like recreate my
consciousness digitally but even that is
could it could be lost if it's stored on
a physical medium or something so
basically I just think that embracing
and realizing how cool it is that like
some day I will just be an idea and
there won't be a Michael anymore that
can be like no that's not what I meant
it'll just be what people like they have
to guess what I meant and they'll
remember me and how I live on and as
that memory you will will maybe not even
be who I wanted to be but there's
something
powerful about that and there's
something powerful about letting future
people run the show themselves I think I
I'm glad to get out of their way at some
point and say all right it's your world
now so you the physical entity michael
has have ripple effects in the space of
ideas that far out lives you yeah in
ways you can't control but it's
nevertheless fascinating to think I mean
especially with you you can imagine an
alien species when they finally arrive
and destroy all of us would watch your
videos to try to figure out what what
were the questions but even if they
didn't you know I still think that there
will be ripples like when I say memory I
don't specifically mean people remember
my name and my birthdate and have like
there's a photo of me on Wikipedia like
all that can be lost but I still would
hope that people ask questions and and
and teach concepts in some of the ways
that I have found useful and satisfying
even they don't know that I was the one
who tried to popularize it that's fine
but if Earth was completely destroyed
like burnt to a crisp everything on it
today
what would the universe wouldn't care
like Jupiter's not gonna go oh no and
that could happen because so we do
however have the power to you know
launch things into space to try to
extend how long our memory exists and
what I mean by that is you know we are
recording things about the world and
we're learning things and writing
stories and all of this and preserving
that is truly what I think is the
essence of being a human we are Auto
biographers of the universe and we're
really good at it we're better than
fossils were better than light spectrum
we're better than any of that we collect
much more detailed memories of what's
happening much better data and so that
should be our legacy and I hope that
that's that's kind of mine too in terms
of people remembering something or
having some kind of effect
but even if I don't you can't not have
an effect right that's the thing this is
not me feeling like I hope that I have
this powerful legacy it's like no matter
who you are you will but you also have
to embrace the fact that that impact
might look really small and that's okay
one of my favorite quotes is from Tess
of the d'Urbervilles and it's along the
lines of the the measure of your life
depends on not your external
displacement but your subjective
experience if I am happy and those that
I love are happy can that be enough
because if so excellent I think there's
no better place to end it Michael thank
you so much there's an honor meet you
thanks for talking thank you it was a
pleasure
thanks for listening to this
conversation with Michael Stevens and
thank you to a presenting sponsor cash
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on Twitter and now let me leave you with
some words of wisdom from Albert
Einstein the important thing is not to
stop questioning curiosity has its own
reason for existence one cannot help but
be in awe when he contemplates the
mysteries of eternity of life the
marvelous structure of reality it is
enough if one tries merely to comprehend
a little of this mystery every day thank
you for listening and hope to see you
next time
you