Kind: captions
Language: en
the following is a conversation with
David Newman she's the Apollo program
professor at MIT and the former deputy
administrator of NASA and has been a
principal investigator on for
spaceflight missions
her research interests are an aerospace
biomedical engineering investigating
human performance in varying gravity
environments she has designed and
engineered and built some incredible
spacesuit technology namely the biosuit
that we talk about in this conversation
due to some scheduling challenges on
both our parts we only had about 40
minutes together and in true engineering
style she said I talk fast you picked
the best questions let's get it done and
we did it was a fascinating conversation
about space exploration and the future
of space suits this is the artificial
intelligence podcast if you enjoy it
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simply connect with me on Twitter Alex
Friedman spelled Fri D M a.m. for the
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and now here's my conversation with
daiva Neumann you circumnavigated the
globe on boat so let's look back in
history 500 years ago Ferdinand
Magellan's crew was first to
circumnavigate the globe but he died I
think people don't know like halfway
through and so did 242 of the 260
sailors that took that three-year
journey what do you think it was like
for that crew at that time heading out
into the unknown to face probably likely
death do you think they were filled with
fear with excitement
probably not fear I think in all of
exploration is the challenge and the
unknown
so probably wonderment and then just the
when you really are sailing the world's
oceans you have extreme weather of all
kinds when we were circumnavigating it
was challenging a new dynamic you really
appreciate Mother Earth you appreciate
the winds of the ways so back to
Magellan his crew since they really
didn't have you know a three-dimensional
of the globe of the earth when they went
out just probably looking over the
horizon thinking what's there what's
there so I would say the challenge that
had to be really important in terms of
the team dynamics on that leadership had
to be incredibly important team dynamics
too how do you keep people focused on
the mission do you think the psychology
that's interesting that's probably
echoes of that and the space exploration
stuff we'll talk about so the psychology
of the dynamics between the human beings
on the mission is important absolutely
for a Mars mission it's there's lots of
challenges technology but you know since
I specialize in keep my astronauts alive
the cycle social issues the psychology
of a psychosocial Team Dynamics
leadership that's you know we're all
people so that's gonna be that's a he
always a huge impact one of the top
three I think of any isolated confined
environment it can any mission that is
really pretty extreme so your twitter
handle is david explorer so when did you
first fall in love with the idea of
exploration ah that's a great question
maybe as long as I can remember as I
grew up in Montana in the Rocky
Mountains and Helena and the capital is
so literally a mount Helen it was my
backyard was right up there so exploring
being in the mountains looking at caves
just running around but always being in
nature so since my earliest memories I
you know think of myself is kind of
exploring the natural beauty of the
Rocky Mountains where I grew up so
exploration is not living at changing
domain it's just anything so the natural
domain of any kind but going out to the
woods into the place you haven't been
it's all exploration I think so yeah I
have a pretty all-encompassing
definition what about space exploration
when we first captivated by the idea
that we little humans couldn't venture
out into the space into the great
unknown enough space so it's a great
year to talk about that the 50th
anniversary of Apollo 11s I was alive
during Apollo and specifically Apollo
when I was 5 years old and I distinctly
remember that I remembered that humanity
I'm sure I probably didn't know their
names at the time you know there's Neil
Armstrong Buzz Aldrin and never forget
Michael Collins in orbit no those three
man
you know doing something that just
seemed impossible seemed impossible a
decade earlier even a year earlier but
the Apollo program really inspired me
and then I think it actually just taught
me to dream to any impossible mission
could be possible with enough focus yeah
I'm sure you need some luck but you
definitely need the leadership you need
the the focus of the mission so since an
early age I thought of course people
should be interplanetary of course
people we need people on earth and we're
gonna have people exploring space as
well that seemed obvious you know at
that age it opened it up before we saw
men on the moon it was not obvious to me
at all but once we understood that yes
absolutely
astronauts that's what they do they
explore they go into space and they land
on other planets or moons so again maybe
a romanticized philosophical question
but when you look up at the stars
knowing that you know there's at least a
hundred billion of them in the Milky Way
galaxy right so we're really a small
speck in this giant thing that's the
visible universe how does that make you
feel about our efforts here I love the
perspective I love that perspective I
always opened my public talks with a big
Hubble Space Telescope image looking out
until you mentioned just now the solar
system the Milky Way because I really
think it's really important to know that
we're just a small pill blue dot we're
really fortunate we're on the best
planet by far life is fantastic that we
know of you're confident this is the
best planet that we know of I mean I
searched my research as you know in
mission worlds and when will we find
life I think actually in probably the
next decade we find probably past life
probably the evidence of past life on
Mars let's say you think there was
pretty like once life on Mars or do you
think there's currently I'm more
comfortable saying about 3.5 billion
years ago feel pretty confident there
was life on Mars just because then it
had an electromagnetic shield it had an
atmosphere has wonderful gravity level
three 3s jeez fantastic you know you're
all super human we can all slam dunk a
basketball I mean it's gonna be fun to
play sports on Mars but so I think we'll
find past that no fossilize probably the
evidence of past life on Mars
currently that's again we need the next
decade but the evidence is mounting for
sure we do have the organics we're
finding organics we have water seasonal
water on Mars we used to just know about
the ice caps you know north and south
pole now we have seasonal water we do
have the building blocks for life on
Mars we really need to dig down into the
soil because everything on the top
surface is radiated but once we find
down will we see any any life form so we
see any bugs
I leave it open as a possibility but I
feel pretty certain that past life or
you know fossilized life forms will find
and then we have to get to all these
ocean worlds these these beautiful moons
of other other planets since we know
they have water and we're looking for
since simple search for life or follow
the water
you know carbon-based life that's the
only life we know there could be other
life forms that we don't know about but
it was hard to search for them because
we don't know so in our search for life
in the solar system it's definitely you
know search you know let's follow the
water and look for the building blocks
of life do you think in the next decade
we might see hints of past life or even
currently I think so I'm pretty active
you humans have to be involved or can
this be robots and Rovers and probably
teams I mean we've been at it on Mars in
particularly 50 years we've been
exploring Mars for 50 years great day
that right our images of Mars today are
phenomenal now we know how Mars lost its
atmosphere you know we're starting to
know because of the lack of the
electromagnetic shield we know about the
water in Mars so we've been studying 50
years with our robots we still haven't
found it so I think once we have a human
mission there we just accelerate things
it's always humans and our Rovers and
robots together but we just have to
think that 50 years we've been looking
at Mars Mars and taking images and doing
the best science that we can people need
to realise Mars this really far away
it's really hard to get to you know this
is extreme extreme exploration we
mentioned Magellan first or all of the
wonderful explorers and sailors of the
past which kind of are lots of my
inspiration for exploration Mars is a
different ballgame I mean no sir eight
months to get there year and a half to
get home I mean it's really extreme
environment in all kinds of ways but the
kind of organism might be able to see
himself on Mars or kind of
microorganisms perhaps
yeah I remember that humans were canal
you know we're hosts right we're hosts
all of our bacteria and viruses right do
you think it's a big leap from the
viruses in the bacteria to us humans
put another way do you think on all
those moons beautiful wet moons that you
mentioned you think there's intelligent
life out there I hope so I mean that's
that's the hope but you know we don't
have the scientific evidence for that
now I think all the evidence we have in
terms of life existing is much more
compelling again because we have the
building blocks of life now when that
life turns into intelligence that's a
big unknown if we ever meet do you think
we would be able to find a common
language I hope so we haven't met yet
it's just so far I mean do physics just
play a role here look at all these
exoplanets 6000 exoplanets I mean even
the couple dozen earth-like planets or
exoplanets that really look like
habitable planets these are very
earth-like they look like they have all
the building blocks I can't wait to get
there the only thing is they're 10 to
100 light years away so scientifically
we know they're there we know that
they're habitable they have you know
everything going from right you know we
call the Goldilocks zone not too hot not
too cold just perfect for how
habitability for life but now the
reality is if they're ten at the best to
a hundred to thousands of light-years
away
so what's out there but I just can't
think that we're not the only ones so
absolutely life life in the universe
probably intelligent life as well do you
think there needs to be fundamental
revolutions and how we the tools we use
to travel through space in order for us
to venture outside of our solar system
or do you think the the ways the Rockets
the ideas we have now the engineering
ideas we have now will be enough to
venture out well it's a good question
right now
yokas can speed of light is it is it is
the limit we don't have a warp speed
warp drive to explore our solar system
to get to Mars to explore all the
planets then we need a technology push
but technology push here is just
advanced propulsion would be great I
could get humans to Mars and say you
know three to four months not eight
months I mean have the time 50%
reduction that's great in terms of
safety and wellness of the
orbital my County but physics rules in
orbital mechanics we can't defy physics
I love that so the new physics I mean
look at quantum you know look at quantum
theories so you never know exactly I
mean we are always learning so we
definitely don't know all the physics
that exists too but where we still have
to it's not science fiction you know we
still have to pay attention to physics
in terms of our speed of travel for
space flight so you were the deputy
administrator of NASA during the Obama
administration there's a current Artemis
program that's what kind of cooed
mission to the moon and then perhaps the
Mars what are you excited about there
what are your thoughts on this program
what are the biggest challenges do you
think of getting to the moon of landing
to the moon once again and then the big
step to Mars well I love you know the
moon program now Artemis we it is
definitely we've been in low-earth orbit
I love low Earth orbit too but I just
always look at those three phases so
Laura Thoren where we've been 40 years
so definitely time to get back to deep
space time to get to the moon there's so
much to do on the moon I hope we don't
get stuck on the moon for 50 years I
really want to get to the moon spent the
next decade first with the lander then
humans there's just a lot to explore but
to me is a big technology push it's only
three days away so the moon is
definitely the right place so we kind of
buy down our technology we invest in
specifically habitats life support
systems so we need suits we really need
to understand really how to live off
planet we've been off planet and low
Earth orbit but still that's only you
know 400 kilometers up 20 or 50 miles
right so we get to the moon is really is
a great proving ground for the
technologies and now we're in deep space
radiation becomes a huge issue can to
keep our astronauts well alive and I
look at all of that investment for moon
moon exploration to the ultimate goal
you know the horizon goals we call it to
get people to Mars
but we just don't go to Mars tomorrow
right we really need a decade on the
moon I think investing in the
technologies learning making sure the
astronauts are their health you know
they're safe and well and also learning
so much institute research you know
utilization is are you in situ resource
utilization is huge when it comes to
exploration for the moon
and Marceau was need a testbed and to me
it really is a lunar testbed and then we
use those same investments to think
about getting people to Mars in the
2030s so developing sort of a platform
of all the kind of research tools of all
the what's the resource you know the can
you speak to that yeah so is are you for
the moon it's will go to the South Pole
and fascinating we have images of it of
course we know there's permanently
shaded areas and Shackleton crater and
there's areas that are permanently in
the Sun well it seems that there's a lot
of water ice you know water that's in
trapped in ice and the lunar craters
that's the first place you go why
because it's water and when you want to
try to it could be fuel you know
life-support systems so you kind of get
in you go where the water is and so when
the moon is kind of for resources
utilization but to learn how to it can
we make the fuels out of the resources
that are on the moon we have to think
about 3d printing right you don't get to
bring all this mass with you you have to
learn how to literally live off the land
we need a pressure shell we need to have
an atmosphere for people to to live in
so all of that is going to bind down the
technology doing the investigation doing
the science what are the basically the
lunar volatiles you know what is that
ice on the moon how much of it is there
what are the resources look like to me
that helps us that's just the next step
in getting humans to Mars and it's
cheaper and more effective to sort of
develop some of these difficult
challenges like solve some of these
challenges practice develop test and so
on on the moon
absolutely so Mars absolutely people are
gonna love to get to the moon you get to
you have a beautiful earth rise I mean
you have the most magnificent view of
Earth being off planet so it just makes
sense I think we're gonna have thousands
lots of people hopefully tens of
thousands in low-earth orbit because
Laura Thoren it's a beautiful place to
go and look down on the earth but people
want to return home I think that the
lunar explorers will also want to do
round trips and you know beyond beyond
the moon three-day trip explore do
science also because the lunar day is 14
days in a lunar Nights also 14 days so
in that 28-day cycle half of it is in
light half of us in dark so people would
probably want to do you know a couple
week trips month long trips not longer
than that
what I mean by people what do you think
explorers yeah astronauts are gonna be
civilians in the future too not all not
all astronauts are gonna be government
astronauts actually when I was at NASA
we changed we actually got the law
changed to recognize astronauts that are
not only government employees you know
NASA astronauts or European Space Agency
astronaut or Russian space agency that
astronauts because of the big push we
put in the private sector that
astronauts essentially you're gonna be
astronauts you get over a hundred
kilometres up and I think once you've
done orbital orbital flight then you're
an astronaut so a lot of private
citizens are going to become astronauts
do you think one day you might step foot
on the moon Mars I'm gonna it's my
life's work to get the next generation
to Mars that's that's that's you are
even younger than you you know my
students generation yes will be the
Martian explorers
I'm just working to facilitate that but
that's not gonna be me
hey the moon is pretty good and it's a
lot tough I mean it's still a really
tough mission it is an extreme mission
exactly it's great for exploration but
doable but again before Apollo we didn't
think getting humans to the moon was
even possible so we kind of made that
possible but we need to go back we
absolutely need to go back we're
investing in the heavy lift launch
capabilities that we need to get there
we haven't had that you know since the
Apollo days since since Saturn five so
now we have three options on the board
that's what's so fantastic NASA has its
you know Space Launch System SpaceX is
gonna have its it's heavy capability and
Blue Origin is coming along too with
heavy lifts so that's pretty fantastic
from where I said I'm the Apollo program
professor today I have zero heavy lift
launch capability
I can't wait just in a few years we'll
have three different heavy lift launch
capabilities so that's pretty exciting
you know your heart is perhaps with NASA
but you mentioned SpaceX and Blue Origin
what are your what are your thoughts of
SpaceX and the innovative efforts
they're from the sort of private company
aspect oh they're great they're mine
remember that the investments in SpaceX
is government funding it's NASA funding
is US Air Force funding just as it
should be because you're bettin on a
company who is moving fast has some new
technology development so I love it so
when as
it really was under our public-private
partnerships so necessarily the
government needs to fund these these
startups now SpaceX is no longer a
start-up but you know it's been at it
for for ten years this has some axis
learned a lot of lessons but it's great
because it's the way you move faster and
also some private industry folks and
businesses will take a lot more risk
that's also really important for the
government what do you think about that
culture of risk I mean sort of NASA and
the government are exceptionally good at
delivering sort of safe like there's a
little bit more of a culture of caution
and safety and sort of this kind of
solid engineering and I think SpaceX
wall has the same kind of stuff it has a
little bit more of that startup feel
where they take the bigger risk is that
exciting for you to see seeing bigger
risks in this case absolutely and the
best scenario is both of them working
together because there's really
important lessons learned especially
when you talk about human spaceflight
safety quality assurance these things
are the utmost importance but both
aviation and space you know when human
lives are at stake on the other hand
government agencies NASA it can be
European Space Agency you name it they
become very bureaucratic pretty
risk-averse move pretty slowly so I
think the best is when you you combine
the partnerships from both sides
industry necessarily has to push the
government take some more risks you know
I got me they're smart risk or actually
gave an award at NASA for failing smart
I love that you've seen kind of break up
when the cultures say no that they don't
look Apollo that was a huge risk it was
done well yeah so there's always a
culture of safety quality assurance you
know engineering you know edit at its
best but on the other hand you want to
get things done and you have to also get
them you have to bring the cost down you
know for when it comes to launch we
really have to bring the cost down and
get the frequency up and so that's what
the newcomers are doing they're really
pushing that so it's about the most
exciting time I can imagine for for
spaceflight again a little bit it really
is the democratization of spaceflight
opening it up not just because the
launch capability but the science we can
do on a CubeSat what you can do now for
very those used to be you know student
projects that we would go through
conceive design implement and think
about what a small satellite would be
now they're the most you know there's a
really advanced instrument science
instruments are flying on little team
cube sets that pretty much anyone can
afford so there's not a there's every
nation you know every place in the world
can fly a cube set and so that's cube
set Oh CubeSat is a this is called one
YouYube says we measure in terms of
units so you know just in terms of I put
my both my hands together that's one
unit two units trees so little small
satellites so cube sets are for small
satellites and we actually go by mass as
well you know small satellite might be
100 kilos 200 kilos all well under a
thousand kilos cube sets then our the
next thing down from small sets you know
basically you know kilos a tens of kilos
things like that but kind of the
building blocks cube sets are fantastic
designs kind of modular design so I can
take a1 u1 1 unit of CubeSat and you
know but what if I have a little bit
more money and payload I can fly three
of them and just basically put a lot
more instruments on it but essentially
think about something the size of a
shoebox if you will you know that would
be a cube set and those how do those
help empower you in terms of doing size
doing exponents
oh right now there's getting back to
private industry planet the company is
you know flying cube sets and literally
looking down on earth and orbiting or
taking a picture if you will of Earth
every day every 24 hours covering the
entire Earth so terms of earth
observations in terms of climate change
in terms of our changing earth
it's revolutionising because they're
affordable we can put a whole bunch of
them up the telecoms we're all you know
on our cell phones and GPS we have our
telecoms but those used to be very
expensive satellites providing that
service now we can fly a whole bunch of
modular cube sets so it really is
breakthrough in terms of modularity as
well as cost reduction so so that's one
exciting set of developments is there
something else that you've been excited
about and like reusable rockets perhaps
that you've seen in the last few years
yeah well the reusability you had your
usability is awesome I mean is the best
now we have to remember the shuttle was
a reusable vehicle yes which an shuttle
is an amazing aerospace engineer I mean
the shuttle is still just the most
gorgeous elegant extraordinary design of
a space vehicle
it was reusable it just wasn't
affordable
but the reusability of it was really
critical because we flew it up it did
come back so the notion of usability and
I think absolutely now what we're doing
with we you know a global we but with
SpaceX of origin sitting the Rockets up
recovering the first stages where if
they can regain seventy percent cost
savings that's huge and just seeing the
control
you know the convenient control and
dynamics person is just seeing that
rocket come back and land oh yeah that's
it never gets old it's exciting so it's
so cool give me the landing is when I
stand up start clapping he's just just
the control control I go and hit that
landing it's you know it's gymnastics
for for a rocket ships better see these
guys stick a landing or foot it's just
wonderful so every time like I said
every time I see ya the reusability and
the rockets coming back and landing so
precisely it's really exciting so it is
it is actually that's a game-changer we
are in a new era of lower costs and a
lot the higher frequency and it's the
world not just NASA it's many nations
are really upping their frequency of
launches you've done a lot of exciting
research design engineering on
spacesuits what does the spacesuit of
the future look like very tight fitting
suit we use them a chemical counter
pressure to pressurize right directly on
the skin seems that it's technically
feasible we're still at the research and
development stage we don't have a flight
system but technically is feasible so we
do a lot of work in the materials you
know what materials do we need to
pressurize someone what's the patterning
we need that's what our patents are in
the patterning kind of how we apply this
is a third of an atmosphere just to sort
of take a step back you have this
incredible bio suit wear them it's tight
fitting so it allows more mobility and
so on so maybe even to take a bigger
step back like what are the functions
that a space it should perform here so
start from the beginning a spacesuit is
the world's smallest spacecraft so I
really that's the best definition I can
give you right now we fly gas
pressurized suits but think of
developing and designing an entire
spacecraft so then you take all those
systems and you shrink them around a
person provide them with oxygen to
breathe scrub out their carbon
I know make sure they have pressure they
need a pressure environment to live on
so really a spacesuit is a shrunken you
know spacecraft in its entirety has
communications exactly so you really
thermal control a little bit of
radiation not so much radiation
protection but thermal control humidity
you know oxygen breeze so all those life
support systems as well as the pressure
production so it's an engineering marvel
you know the spacesuits that have flown
because they really are entire
spacecraft that a small spacecraft that
we have around a person but they're very
massive but 140 kilo is the current suit
and they're not mobility suits so since
we're going back to the Moon and Mars we
need a planetary suit we need a mobility
suit so that's where we've kind of
flipped the design paradigm I study
astronauts I study humans in motion and
if we can map that motion I want to give
you a full flexibility you know move
your arms and legs I really want you to
be like a Olympic athlete in extreme
Explorer I don't want to waste any of
your energy so we take it from the human
design so I take a look at humans we
measure them we model them and then I
say okay can I put a spacesuit on them
that goes from the skin out so rather
than a gas pressurized shrinking that
spacecraft around the person so here's
how humans perform can I design a
spacesuit literally from the skin out
that's what we've come up with
mechanical counter-pressure some
patterning and that way it could be
order of magnitude less in terms of the
mass and it should provide maximum
mobility for moon or mars
what's mechanical cano pressure like how
the heck can you even begin to create
something that's tight-fitting so and
still doesn't protect you from the
elements and so on and the hold of the
pressure thing design channels we've
been working on it from so you can
either put someone in a balloon that's
one way to do it that's conventional
that's me that means the balloon doesn't
get fresher eyes soon so put someone in
a blue it's only a third of an
atmosphere to keep someone alive so
that's what the current system is so
depending on what units you think in 30
kilo Pascal's you know 4.3 pounds per
square so much less than the the
pressure that's on earth you can still
be a human alive with 0.3 and it's alive
and happy alive in half India you mix
the gases you need here we're we're
having this chat and we're both we're at
one sea level in Boston it you know one
atmosphere but assume
nitrogen arsenide you didn't you put a
suit if we put someone to a third of an
atmosphere so for mechanical counter
pressure now so one ways to do it with a
balloon and that's what we currently
have or you can apply the pressure
directly to the skin I only have to give
you a third of an atmosphere right now
you and I are very happy in one
atmosphere so so you know we can so if I
put that pressure a third of an
atmosphere on you I just have to do it
consistently you know across you know
all of your body and your limbs and
it'll be a gas pressurized helmet
doesn't make sense to shrink wrap the
head we don't need to there's no
benefits of like shrink wrapping have
you put on gas pressurized helmet
because the helmet then the future of
suits you asked me about the helmet just
becomes your information portal yes so
we'll have augmented reality you'll have
all the information you need should have
you know the maps that I need I'm on the
moon okay well hey smart helmet then
show me the map show me the topography
hopefully it has the lab embedded too if
it has really great cameras maybe I can
see with that regolith that's just lunar
dust and dirt what's that made of
we talked about the water so the helmet
then really becomes this information
portal is how I see kind of the IT
architecture the helmet is really
allowing me to you know use all of my
modalities of an explorer that I'd like
to so cameras voiceover images if it
were really good it would kind of be
would have lab capabilities as well okay
so the pressure comes for the body comes
from the mechanical pressure just
fascinating
now what aspect when I look at BIOS they
just the suits you're working on sort of
from a fashion perspective they look
awesome is that is that a small part of
it too oh absolutely because the teams
that we work with of course I'm an
engineer there's engineering students
there's design students there's
architects so it really is a very much a
multidisciplinary team so sure colors
aesthetics materials all those things we
pay attention to so it's not just an
engineering solution it really is a much
more holistic it's a suit it's a suit
you're you know so we really have to pay
attention to all those things and so
that's the design team that we work with
and my partner get rowdy you know we
were partners in this in terms of he
comes from an architect or industrial
design background
so bringing those skills to bear as well
we team up with industry folks who are
in athletic performance and designers so
it really is a team that brings all
those skills together so what role does
the spacesuit play in our long-term
staying in Mars sort of exploring the
doing all the work that astronauts do
but also perhaps civilians one day
almost like taking steps towards
colonization of Mars what world is a
spacesuit play there so you always need
life-support system
pressurized habitat and I like to say
we're not going to Mars to sit around
you know even if you land and have the
lander you're not going there to stay
inside that's for darn sure we're going
there to search for the evidence of life
that's why we're going to Mars so you
need a lot of mobility so for me the
suit is the best way to give the human
mobility we're always so gonna need
Rovers we're gonna need robots so for me
exploration is always a suite of
explorers some people are gonna some of
the suite of explorers or humans but
many are gonna be robots smart systems
things like that but I look at it it's
kind of all those capabilities together
make the best exploration team so let me
ask I loved artificial intelligence and
you thought I've also saw that you've
enjoyed the movie space obviously 2001 a
Space Odyssey let me ask the question
about Hal 9000 that makes a few
decisions there that prioritizes the
mission over the the astronauts do you
think from a high philosophical question
do you think hell did the right thing
prioritizing the mission I think our
artificial intelligence will be smarter
in the future for a Mars mission it's a
great question of is that the reality
isn't for a Mars mission you know we
need fully autonomous systems we will
get humans but they have to be fully
autonomous and that's a really important
concept because you know there's not
going to be a Mission Control on earth
you know I'd you know 20-minute time leg
there's just no way you're gonna control
so fully a ton so people have to be
fully autonomous as well but all of our
systems as well and so that's that's the
big design challenge so that's why we
test them out on the moon as well when
we have a okay a few seconds you know a
three-second time leg you can test him
out we have to really get autonomous
exploration down you asked me earlier
about Magellan and Magellan and his crew
they they left right they were
autonomous mm-hmm you know they were
autonomous they left and they were on
their own to figure out that mission
then when they hit land they have
resources as Institue resource
utilization and everything else they
brought with them so we have to I think
have that mindset for expression again
back to the moon it's more the testing
ground the proving ground with
technologies but when we get to Mars
it's so far away that we need fully
autonomous systems so I think that's
that's where again AI and autonomy come
in really robust autonomy things that we
don't have today yet so they're on the
drawing boards but we really need to
test them out because that's that's what
we're up against so fully autonomous
meaning like self-sufficient there's
still a role for the human in that
picture do you think there will be a
time when AI systems just beyond doing
fully autonomous flight control will
also help or even take mission decisions
like how did that's interesting it
depends I mean they're gonna be designed
by humans as you mentioned humans are
always in the loop I mean we might be on
earth we might be in orbit on Mars maybe
the systems the Landers down on the
surface of Mars but I think we're gonna
get we are right now just on earth-based
systems you know AI systems that are
incredibly capable and you know training
them with all the data that we have now
you know petabytes of data from Earth
what I care about for the autonomy and
AI right now how we're applying it and
research is to look at earth and look at
climate systems I mean that's the it's
not for Mars to me today right now AI is
to eyes on earth all of our space data
compiling that using supercomputers
because we have so much information and
knowledge and we need to get that into
people's hands we need first there's the
educational issue with climate and our
changing climate then we need to change
human behavior that's the biggie so this
next decade it's urgent we take care of
our own spaceship which is spaceship
earth so that's to me where my focus has
been for AI systems using whatever is
out there kind of imagining also what
the future situation is the satellite
imagery of Earth of the future if you
can hold that in your hands that's gonna
be really powerful will that help people
accelerate positive change for Earth and
for us to live in balance with earth I
hope so and kind of start with the ocean
systems so oceans to land to air and
kind of using all the space data so it's
a huge role for artificial
telogen to help us analyze I call it
curating the data using the data it has
a lot - of visualizations as as well do
you think and a weird dark question do
you think human species can survive if
we don't become interplanetary in the
next century or a couple of centuries
absolutely we can survive
I don't think Mars is option B actually
I think is all about saving spaceship
earth and humanity I simply put you know
earth doesn't need us
but we really need our you know all
humanity needs to live in balance with
earth because earth has been here a long
time before we ever showed up and it'll
be here a long time after it's just a
matter of how do we want to live with
all living beings you know much more in
balance because we need to take care of
the earth and right now we're we're not
so that's the urgency and I think it is
the next decade to try to live much more
sustainably live more in balance with
earth I think the human species has a
great long optimistic future but we have
to act it's urgent we you know it we
have to change behavior we we have to
work we have to realize that we're all
in this together it's just one blue
bubble it's for Humanity so when I think
people realize that we're all astronauts
that's the great news is everyone's be
an astronaut you birth we're all on
we're all astronauts of spaceship earth
and okay this is our mission this is our
mission to take care of the planet and
yet as we explore out from our from our
spaceship earth here out into the space
what do you think the next 50 hundred
200 years look like for space
exploration I'm optimistic so I think
that we'll have lots of people thousands
of people tens of thousands people who
knows maybe millions in low-earth orbit
that's just a place that we're gonna
have people and actually some industry
manufacturing things like that that that
dream I hope we realize getting people
to the moon so I can envision a lot of
people on the moon again it's great
place to living or visiting probably
visiting and living if you want to most
people are gonna want to come back to to
earth I think but there'll be some
people and it's not such a long it's a
good view it's a beautiful view so I
think that we will have you know many
people on the moon as well I think
there'll be some people you told me well
you know hundreds of years out so we'll
have people will be interplanetary for
sure
as a species so I think we'll be on the
moon I think we'll be on Mars Venus no
it's already a runaway greenhouse gas so
not a great great place for science you
know Jupiter all of in within the solar
system great place for all of our
scientific probes I don't see so much in
terms of human physical presence we'll
be exploring them so we we live in our
minds there because we're exploring them
and going on those journeys but it's
really our choice in terms of our
decisions of how in balance you know
we're gonna be living here on the earth
when do you think the first woman first
person will step on Mars I asked about
Mars Vaughn I'm gonna do everything I
can to make sure it happens in the 2030s
so I say mid you know 2020 mid 20 you
know 2025 2030 five will be on the moon
and hopefully with more people than less
but first with you know a few astronauts
it'll be global international folks but
we really need those 10 years I think on
the moon and then so by the way later in
the decade in the 2030s we will have all
the technology and know-how and we need
to get that you know human mission to
Mars 10 live in exciting times and David
thank you so much for leading the way
and thank you for talking today thank
you my pleasure
thanks for listening to this
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