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why is it so controversial and why are
you so confident to be able to tell
people cut out these diet drinks from
your
diet yeah well I think I I have the same
general Outlook as you and my own stance
and my advice is very similar which is
take a precautionary stance um and be be
informed look I mean life is for the
living so we're all we all do things
that are that are maybe not so good for
us from time to time but you know every
time you you every time you commit
yourself to making a decision like that
just be aware it may not be so good for
you we we we may not be 100% certain and
of course everyone's a little bit
different but here's what I read about
in my book because I was deeply
researching this what's the role of
beverages people say well fruit juices
must be okay because they come from
fruits which are plant-based aren't you
talking about eating plant-based Foods
yes but again this is you know back to
this idea of nuance which is really
important I think that the science of
the body is
continuously changing and advancing so
that we understand more and more what
the impact is of something that we might
consume and how our body responds to it
10 years ago there were some inklings
that maybe diet soft drinks might not be
so good for our metabolism now that
we've dived deeper into gut health we're
beginning to see more concrete data that
suggests that there is an impact we also
do know more greatly than ever that our
gut health is so important for overall
health and so when we start to put
together this hypothesis and start to
stitch together some of the information
the precautionary position is you know
be really careful about diet sodas and
be careful about sodas in general and so
for my book one of the things that I
wanted to do is just to write about like
where's the Safe Harbor and all this
right by the way I I take people in my
book through the as I was writing the
section of my book on Foods I wrote for
the reader uh imagining that they were
sitting in the grocery cart like we all
did when we were kids in our mom's
grocery cart and she was pushing us
through the grocery store and what I'm
doing is kind of whispering your ear
telling you what is healthy and good for
your metabolism to put in the grocery
cart and when we get to the beverage
aisle okay there's a whole chapter on
beverages I really come to this
conclusion that um there are three
beverages that I call the Holy Trinity
for health it's water it's tea and it's
coffee in the Elemental forms right not
the stuff that's got the syrups and
things put in them not NE the flavored
Waters necessarily but in their
Elemental forms these three beverages
all have very very compelling uh and
deep evidence that they actually benefit
our physiology they help our body do its
things um in in a way everything else
that's a beverage when you consume it
there are ways of actually bringing joy
and great flavor and taste don't deny
that but they're actually uh introducing
things in your body that may or may not
be so good for you look everyone enjoys
a sweet drink of course you know the
remember when we were kids and you went
to a function and uh your your a parent
or an adult pours you a cup of punch you
know it's of a color that doesn't occur
in nature and you drink it and oh it's
so great look this is who we are we're
humans we enjoy sweet things our brain
is hardwired to enjoy sweet things but I
think that one of the things is if you
have the awareness that things that we
may enjoy may not be that good for us
and we're mindful about restricting
limiting consuming only modestly that's
a good first step I don't believe that
people should go hardcore uh and just
come off of everything that they enjoy
no nor do I really believe in in um uh
villainizing Foods I think we should
look at all the data and and nothing
speaks more to this than even something
that is beneficial to you if you consume
it in excess can overwhelm our bodies
we're just human yeah I think there's a
couple of really important points to
pause upon there one is you know as you
were talking about diet soft
drinks you said that look we're all
human we all like to have things now and
again that are probably not the best
thing for us and I think we need to
acknowledge that and go yeah that is who
we are we all probably have our little
Tendencies the things that we like to to
go to you know maybe it's stress I know
for me if there's a lot of stress on in
my life and there is at the moment to do
with my mom and her health I tend to
seek certain foods out that I know are
probably not the best for me that that
that that in that moment they feel as
though there's something I want to
consume and I think we need to be honest
about that what we're not looking for is
perfection when you say diet drinks are
probably not that helpful you know if
you're having the odd one now and again
it's probably going to be fine but if
you're having three or four of them a
day 7 days a week four weeks a month 12
months a year you know there may be some
consequences and I think that Nuance is
really really important you mentioned
also about these three
beverages water tea and coffee now you
didn't mention alcohol and there wasn't
a fourth beverage even though certain
community around the world who are
written about the blue zones for example
to be long living most of those blue
zones not all of them I think I don't
think Loma Linda uh the fifth Blue Zone
I don't think they consume alcohol but
the other four I believe do consume
alcohol now I have some very clear views
about alcohol and where that fits in how
do you see alcohol in the context of our
overall health and I guess in relation
to your latest book around the context
of fat
loss yeah well you know I get asked this
question all the time Dr Lee what do you
think about uh red wine or what about
alcohol and in you know oftentimes the
reason that someone's asking is either
that they have heard that drinking red
wine or drinking wine in the blue zones
is is has been is touted as being
associated with longevity or Better
Health and there are some clinical
studies that also show some of these
overall correlations of health benefits
as well um I oftentimes think that
people who are asking those questions
are looking for a justification or an
excuse for it so I I'm I'm always trying
to understand where the question is
actually coming from but I'm a scientist
and you know like you you and I are both
Physicians we have to answer very
honestly and the honest answer is is
that that alcohol ethanol which is a
chemical uh it's a product of
fermentation uh it's actually what makes
you feel boozy and drunk okay there's no
health benefit from it it's a toxin it's
a toxin for virtually every organ in our
body it kills your brain kills your
liver and you don't have to drink very
much frankly of pure ethanol the pure
stuff to knock yourself off uh it is
actually a poison that said wine and
other Spirits again are part of who we
are as humans part it's part of our
Humanity you know I I mentioned a little
bit earlier you know from the time of
earliest cultivation of agriculture
people have actually been cultivating
grapes and fermenting them and not
making just processed grape juice
they've been making wine wine actually
uh has been a revered part of human
tradition uh religious ceremonies uh
celebrations wines are wine and and
Spirits are consumed at funerals at
holidays celebrating the New Year
cultures around the world but in no
cases the actual ethanol something that
is healthy for you it's that this is
part of our human tradition it's not
done very frequently and like anything
else if done in moderation it it's
probably okay now what about the blue
zones what about these Sardinian goat
herders who actually do drink red wine
uh every night you know from the the
great Sardinian canono red wine which
you know actually is quite a nice wine
here's the issue they are doing almost
everything else right in their lives and
the so the alcohol that they're having
is offset by uh all the other physical
activity low stress social commitment
sense of purpose uh other healthy local
Fresh Foods that are actually grown and
prepared in healthy ways the absence of
ultra processed foods you're not
drinking a lot of diet sodas diet or
otherwise and so in that sense you know
everything is a check and balance our
our body is like a gigantic calculator
so how much does if you do everything
else right how much does a glass or two
uh of red wine of Al ethanol do for you
probably not much harm and by the way
the fermentation product of in red wine
if you remove the ethanol the toxic
stuff all the other polyphenols are
actually uh in the non-alcoholic part of
the liquid so you know I think this
Nuance part is actually really important
as you brought up yeah there's just so
much there um first of all thank you for
sharing your perspective I think a lot
about Thresh towards when I talk to my
patients there's also a course called
prescribing lifestyle medicine that is
accredited by the Royal College of GP
that me and a colleague teach to healthc
Care Professionals and doctors all over
the world about how to use the
principles of Lifestyle medicine to
personalize care for the individual
patients and we've created all these
Frameworks to help uh people do that and
I talk about thresholds a lot on that
course and say look especially when
you're looking at our lifestyle
behaviors it's not always about the one
thing it's about the combination of
things you know what else is going on
and I completely agree to go to these
you know the theoretical mythical blue
zones in our head let's say that goats
herder in
Sardinia low levels of stress strong
Community ties local Whole Foods right
alcohol there is probably been used as a
way of bonding and connecting it's not
being used typically from what I
understand as a way of destressing from
The Chronic overload the chronic stress
and of course in the west you know we
know that stress now is thought to be
responsible for 80 to 90% of the
conditions that medical doctors see if
you're using alcohol as a way to
mitigate stress I'm not convinced it's
going to have the same impact than if
you're feeling really chilled and
relaxed you're using half a glass of
wine to bond with one of your best mates
who you've not seen in a while I really
do the impact on the body is going to be
somewhat different also speaking to what
you just said about uh tea and coffee
let's say tea and coffee are really
interesting because we can
epidemiologically look at populations
and I think last time you came on the
podcast we spoke a little bit about tea
and we'll definitely get to tea so I
know you're a huge tea fan and how these
long living
populations are consuming high amounts
of tea and coffee but also to really get
very granular that we can look in the
lab and look at the cell and look at the
science and reduce it right down and go
yes tea and coffee have certain
compounds that are going to be helping
us we can't really say the same for
alcohol in the same way yes
epidemiologically these populations are
consuming but then as you said yes there
are compounds within the alcohol but if
you look at the pure ethanol I'm not
sure yet we've got any scientific study
showing that is good for our cells do
you know what I mean so I I think on all
these levels we have to take a bit of
balance and go what else is going on in
your life maybe the amount of alcohol
you're currently consuming is not the
best thing for you
perhaps no I I totally agree and and
this idea of bonding is really important
because if you're getting together to
celebrate an event or mark an event and
bringing people together that social
bonding actually is really important
your gut microbiome by the way also
responds to the bonding by helping to
text message your brain to release
social hormones as well so again I think
that we tend to oversimplify the impact
of foods Nuance again is really
important what happens in addition to
the food what's the context in which the
food is actually eaten it's healthier to
eat with people than to eat alone not
only you more likely to eat less but
you're also connecting uh with with
others as well and oftentimes uh people
are interested in uh the the others
sense of purpose you know which you then
leave for yourself all of these factors
are there and by the way you know maybe
to give a another analogy that I as we
were talking I was thinking about we all
do things that may not be the best for
us occasionally and that's okay and I
think giving people that acknowledgement
of humanity and the occasional going off
the reservation is is totally fine it's
like when we drive a car right I mean on
the highway way most of us are abide
with safety traffic safety rules and we
drive in safe ways every now and then
you got to go into the fast lane and you
speed and you go a little bit faster
than you should or maybe a lot faster
than you should but but and that's okay
you know for the most part but if you
got in a fast lane every single day and
you put the pedal to the metal and went
as fast as you possibly could guarantee
you that that is unlikely to end up in a
good way for you as a driver and so I
think that if we think about our lives
as sort of a journey on a highway where
the behaviors that we actually take
decisions that we make are not the
similar to you know the decisions we
make in in a car on the road that might
help us understand oh every now and then
you need to get go a little bit faster
maybe even above the speed limit and
that's okay as long as you're not doing
it all the time yeah hi there if you
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