Kind: captions
Language: en
From the year 2000 to today, the average
male's testosterone levels have dropped
by more than 25%.
And modern life is only making the
problem worse. Algorithms are now so
effective at hijacking the male brain's
dopamine system that millions of men are
stuck in loops of porn, Only Fans, and
endless scrolling, feeling like they're
making progress, but in reality, they're
stuck. According to my guest today,
Stanford neuroscientist Andrew Huberman,
modern life is uniquely disrupting the
male brain. In this interview, he
details the trap that men are falling
into, as well as exactly what they need
to do to climb out and optimize for
success. If you're a man or you love
one, you're not going to want to miss
this episode. So, without further ado, I
bring you Andrew Huber.
Modern life seems to be hijacking men's
brains. So whether it's porn, only fans,
social media, you've got men that are
depressed, demotivated, unable to form
relationships. What do you think is the
actual breakdown?
I think what's happening is that the
technology aka the algorithms have
gotten so good at tapping into the
circuits for motivation that they've
basically pulled many males focus and
efforts into this very narrow groove of
pursuit. And you would ask any of those
guys like what are you actually
pursuing? Like like is the thing that
you're you're chasing is there a payoff?
and they'd probably say, "No, I realize
there's not, but I can't stop."
>> That's why.
>> And you know, we've talked before about
dopamine, and I think nowadays most
people appreciate that dopamine is about
motivation and pursuit, at least as much
as it's about pleasure, or at least the
things that we're motivated to do at
first bring us pleasure, the drug, the
gambling, the pornography, etc. But that
very quickly over time, it keeps us in
the groove of pursuit. And that groove
is getting tighter and tighter but the
pleasure value starts dropping dropping
dropping dropping dropping.
>> Now do you think that male acquisition
of goals like the obsession with that is
uh disproportionately
affected by the modern dopamine
hijacking things like social media or is
this universal to men and women?
>> I think at the extremes of sort of male
female stereotypes I think yes. I think
that if you think about video games,
porn, maybe not so much social media. I
mean, social media is social, right?
It's about who's saying what about who.
And you know, sure, there's this pursuit
of followers and pursuit of likes that,
you know, I think all people are um
susceptible to in good or bad ways. But
when I look at Instagram for instance, a
platform I love and teach on and learn
from and I look at X, I would say X
tends to be sort of male-dominated
>> in kind of and its essence is kind of
more masculine. People are the things
that people are saying, how they're
saying it,
>> they're trying to convince you.
>> They're trying to convince you. And it
and it tends to be um less about who's
talking about who. They might show
something bad uh that somebody said, but
Instagram is far more relational. The
way that comments are structured,
comments on comments, there's
discussions down there that you can see
then the way um videos are pulled and re
reposted. It's um X feels more linear
and it feels more kind of um direct to
one statement. It's like, okay, here's
somebody being bad. Here's someone
beating somebody up. Here's someone
being an idiot. here's them being, you
know, um, morons about the economy or
morons about the election or, you know,
whereas Instagram, if you if you look at
the stuff that gets really high high
salience, it tends to be more
relational.
>> Um, and I think that I could be wrong
about this. I don't know that the behind
the scenes uh numbers, but that's that's
the way they feel to me. I think that
the Y chromosome, you know, which uh
basically is deterministic for maleness,
you know, I basically well, there's a
gene is I would have thought the Y
chromosome, but it turns out there's a
gene on the Y chromosome called SRY and
all the, you know, genes, you know,
eventually is DNA, RNA, and then
proteins. So proteins are the kind of
the action end of the business. But all
of the proteins that are downstream of
of the SRY gene, SRY is a transcription
factor, turns on and off a bunch of
different genes. So it's kind of sets up
a menu. That SRY gene and the things on
it suppress
the malarian ducts, the fallopian tubes,
the ovaries, and creates the male
genitalia. And it also organizes the
brain to be male. And I'll explain how
it does that in a moment if you want.
But what's so interesting is is if that
SRY gene is transllocated to the X
chromosome and this has happened in
humans, you get two X chromosomes. you
have an SRY gene and you get a true
biological male penis whole thing
>> and fertile, right? And fertile because
there are cases for instance of where um
you have XY for instance an SRY gene,
you get testosterone, you get all the
different testosterone uh you know
things like dihydrotestosterone
etc. But there's a deficient androgen
receptor. So that testosterone has no
action end. It can't really work you
know it can't engage in the receptor the
parking slot and have an effect. What
you end up with is a biological male who
looks female, testes that don't descend,
and then they're infertile basically. So
you got a bi chromosomally male, but it
looks female. It's fairly rare. Okay,
but what we can say is that the SRY gene
is deterministic for creating a male.
And so then you say, well, what genes
are downstream of SRY? And the one
that's really interesting is
dihydrotestosterone, DHT. Not to get too
deep into the biochemistry, but
testosterone, which we're all familiar
with, made by the testes, gets converted
into dihydrotestosterone by an enzyme
called five alpha reductase.
During embryionic development, when you
and I were in the embryo downstream of
SR, we made DHT. We made testosterone.
Some of it was converted to DHT. That
set up the brain, your brain and my
brain to be male later when it was
exposed to testosterone. So when you
come into the world, provided you had
the SRY gene and it's functional, your
brain is organized male and your
genitalia are organized male. And then
when when you get a testosterone surge
during puberty, the penis grows, the
brain and the brain areas that are
larger or smaller in males become that
way. And then those circuits basically
make you male. This is what we call
deterministic because for instance,
there's a genetic mutation
where, believe it or not, males, XY
males with the SRY gene, are born. They
don't actually convert testosterone into
DHT, and they appear as biological
females across development. They look
that they it doesn't look like they have
a penis. It looks like they have a
vagina. They um and it it turns out
actually they have testes that haven't
descended yet. And then during puberty,
testosterone is secreted from the testes
and they literally sprout a penis. It's
called it's calledosis. the it's penis
at 12. It's a genetic genetic related
mutation and it's well known about in in
these uh communities where it exists
because there's enough of you know
enough of these have occurred that what
we can say from these kind of wild you
know these are kind of um unusual
circumstances is that there's an SRY
gene you get male you get a male brain
and you get a male body if there isn't
an SRY gene even if you have XY
chromosomes you get a female body. So,
you know, the biologists have really
boiled it down to that. Now, you know,
>> no, sorry, really fast.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Uh, so we'll wrap this up and then I
definitely want to get back to uh the
way that I think modern life is breaking
male brains. I think uniquely, so it'll
be interesting to see your take on that
since you'll have the data to back it
up. But I am stuck on a kid is 12. Uh,
he has a clitoris
>> and then it literally becomes is it a
micro penis at the end of this?
>> Pretty much.
>> Okay. So, this is bad news bears. Like,
if you've got that, you're really buming
out.
>> Uh, yeah. And they they often don't
know. They sort of don't know that
they're male or female. It's sort of
like, you know,
>> so they end up being surprised. Is this
what people mean when they say interex
or is that a totally different?
>> That's different. That's different.
Yeah, that's different.
>> Not to derail on that.
>> That's not to derail, but but and we
get, you know, but then let's think
about what's when we talk about the
brain being organized male, like what is
that, right? So, everyone's familiar
with testosterone. Best way to describe
testosterone is a molecule that in
addition to being important for sperm
function and libido and things like
that, testosterone makes effort feel
good.
>> Testosterone and dopamine
>> Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I've never
heard that.
>> Yeah. And and in fact, there have been
studies where testosterone has been
administered to adult males and what you
find is that whatever psychological
traits and behavioral traits they tend
to already have just get amplified. In
fact, there's a really nice study that
my colleague Robert Seapolski, the great
Robert Solski taught me about, which was
if you, for instance, go to uh an
auction and you give some males
testosterone, they'll try and outbid
other men, which sounds like, oh, they
want to own all the stuff. Now, if I
tell you that the because this is
actually the case that the auction was
actually um an altruistic auction that
all the benefits went to charity. These
guys with more testosterone are
basically fighting and giving up
resources
>> to give more resources away. So, it's
not that testosterone makes people
jerks. However, if somebody's a jerk and
they have and they're given
testosterone, they'll become more of a
jerk. It tends to just amplify whatever
behavioral trait somebody has.
>> I remember what Seapolski was saying,
and please correct me if I'm wrong. It
was whatever like testosterone is going
to make the man want to win at the thing
that gives him status. So if you get
status by winning the give away your
money auction, then cool, you're going
to do that. It almost doesn't matter
what the thing is. That's right.
>> It's not like it's necessarily making
them more altruistic. It's just making
them want to win at the status game.
>> That's right. Yeah. So you you put a
finer point on it and and you're
correct. So, I think
>> that's interesting. And this is part of
what I'm getting at when I say that I
think modern life is uniquely breaking
the male brain is it's giving these
proxies for um status seeking
>> and it's giving you a different set of
games to play that are not translating
well into real life. Yeah.
>> And so you're maybe you're winning at
social media, but you're not actually
translating that into a job. Or maybe
you're winning at, and one of the things
I most want to talk about is Only Fans.
Like you're getting this signal that
you've accomplished something, acquired
something, you've got relational access
to a woman,
>> and it's somehow like giving you this
signal that you did the thing you came
to do,
>> but it's such a bizarre proxy. Like Only
Fans, I did not understand it. When I
first heard that it was real, I was
like, there's no way that people pay
money for that. I actually I'm like they
do know that porn is free, right? I
could not fathom it. So, uh am I off
base here? Like what like as you think
about Only Fans as a specific phenomena,
what do you think is happening there?
>> Yeah. Well, I think when I think about
testosterone, the one other point that I
want to make is that it tends to
suppress activity the amydala, which is
why it can make effort feel good. It
tends to suppress fear. It tends to make
pe effort feel good as opposed to effort
feel scary. do that by dulling or
dimming down the fear response.
>> That's right. It brings So things that
are challenging bring about less
anxiety. So you're able to apply more
effort with less anxiety generally
speaking. Okay. Um the dopamine system
and the testosterone system are
intimately related especially in the
male brain.
>> Okay. So dopamine the molecule of
motivation and so forth as we know is
associated with you know the p the
pleasure of pursuit as opposed to the
pursuit of pleasure. another beautiful
Robert Seapolskiism. So, I didn't say
that he did. Um, but I'm borrowing it.
Let's think about a kid sitting down to
play um like video game. You love video
games. Video games can be very healthy,
right? You get a score, you're
motivated, you it's sort of updating
with what? With novelty, right? As you
progress, you get to access more in
different worlds and more in different
experiences. This is also true in the
nonverirtual world, right? in the in the
so-called real world. This is also true
in Only Fans to the extent I've never
gone on only fans full at foot mittens,
but I think I know what it's generally
about. You pay money, you can see things
that are stimulating, right? Arousing,
right? That's the idea.
>> As one does that, there's there's the
tendency for people to seek more and
more intense experiences. Why? because
the same amount of dopamine isn't being
deployed as you go into it for the first
time as you go into it the 10th time and
the hundth time and so forth. So people
are willing to invest more effort or and
or money in order to go further and
further into this terrain. I think that
the the most important
>> what do you consider the terrain there?
>> Ah right. So are you familiar with
Michael Easter the comfort crisis? He
wrote the book comfort.
>> Yeah I've had him on the show. Yeah. So
he shared with me that there's this very
interesting study or set of studies
being done at a experimental casino in
Las Vegas. He lives out in Las Vegas. A
few years back, somebody who worked for
the casinos saw his kid playing video
games and the light bulb went off for
him.
I'll fast forward. 85% 85% of the
revenue from casinos comes from slot
machines. That didn't used to be the
case. I know. I know. I didn't believe
it. I was like, there's no way. Here's
here's what the the bit the massive
shift from slot machines being a small
percentage to the vast majority of the
income for casinos was. He saw his kid
playing video games and he saw that in
video games there's a near infinite
number of experiences that a kid can
encounter with playing the game. Now
there's some constraints, right? You're
the player this and that but in theory
you could introduce any number of
different worlds or experiences
>> and dynamics. So what he did is he
brought that that to the casino world
and instead of having slot machines
where it just would roll numbers or
fruit or you know crowns or whatever,
they created electronic versions of this
where yes, you could update more
quickly. Instead of pulling a lever, you
could press a button. But more
importantly, it could create an infinite
number of electronic combinations. So
that as the person was starting to kind
of grow tired, and the algorithm could
tell would grow tired of, you know,
trying to line up muffins with ice cream
cones, they would start switching out
cake for ice cream cones and like uh
little anime uh girls for for the other,
you know, for whatever else the other
thing was. And over time what they found
is people would just keep playing and
playing for even the smallest and
actually increasingly smaller changes in
novelty. So the newness of only fans at
the beginning is not what you need to
recreate in order to keep the brain
paying the same amount or even more to
keep going. What you need is novelty.
And the brain because of the way
dopamine is deployed in smaller and
smaller amounts and is giving smaller
and smaller amounts of pleasure,
especially if you ping it with an
occasional big burst of pleasure every
once in a while or more big more
dopamine. All you need to do to keep
somebody paying in a landscape is give
them new experiences intermittently.
Good oldfashioned intermittent
reinforcement. But now the reinforcement
isn't necessarily a bigger monetary win
or you know seeing you know here I'm I'm
hypothesizing you know I mean you can
only introduce so many different players
in a in a pornographic scene right so
many different things so they started
changing the novelty in subtle ways and
it keeps people going and going and
going and I'm not going to say that the
male brain is uniquely susceptible to
this but because of the relationship
between testosterone and dopamine and
the tendency for the male brain in its
most stereotypical form, but let's just
stick with that being really in pursuit
of things that are sort of forward
linear motion like looking for the next
thing. I was just talking about this in
the discussion I had uh with your wife,
which was, you know, men like to
concentrate on what's happening now and
forward movement. Generally speaking,
we're not really like defaulting to
let's talk about the past for a while.
Let's think about the past. Let's rehash
the past. That's not not a a typical uh
male phenotype. It exists but it's and
and it has its importance but that's not
where what we default to and that has a
lot to do with the fact that I do think
a lot of the circuits for testosterone
are about
how can I have action out there right
stereotypically the female brain is more
oriented towards relational things
>> and with men it's like how can I have an
impact out there like impact theory
literally or let's think about Elon
wanting to send things to Mars or let's
think about the first time like you know
caveman probably picked up a a rock,
they probably after they hit themselves
in the head with it, they probably hit
the person next to them. Ah, that hurts,
that hurts, and like let's throw it
against that wall and see if it breaks
and then let's see if we can hunt
something, get a better meal. It's about
action at a distance. And I'll tell you,
I mean, I love watching the rockets
launch. It's just it's the one of the
ultimate expressions of seeing like
human engineering at a distance. Like
you're having this huge impact, whereas
most of the things in life you can't
really control. They're out there and
you can observe them. Watch the sunset,
beautiful, watch the sunrise. I'm all
about that. But ultimately, our careers,
our lives, our feelings of what we've
accomplished are about creating action
at a distance.
>> And it doesn't mean that the further the
distance, the more impactful it is, but
it human evolution has has largely
ridden this wave of this desire to like
let's see what happens if and that's not
like, oh, let's see what happens if we
like, you know, etch a small, you know,
uh, you know, note in the sand. It's
like, "No, let's see what happens if we
draw a mural like as big as that wall
and then I don't know. Let's see if we
can like throw someone over that wall."
Like this is like this is the this is
the sy gene in action, right? I'm only
half
>> leave you alone for like an hour to come
up with all the things that guys like
like you know, okay, there's relational
stuff, but you know, I had a sister. I
have a sister. I mean, they would play
in aroma like, "Okay, you play this and
you do this." And it was like very
relational. They weren't like, "Let's
see if we can, I don't know, go like
build a giant, you know, ramp in the
backyard and like jump over the
neighbor's fence like a bunch of idiots
and get impaled on it, you know?" So,
you can sort of make it out to where the
outcome is uh, you know, kind of sounds
like male stupidity, but if we really
step back, this is beautiful. This is
essential to human evolution. This is
why we have the fields that we do, which
now of course include men and women,
right? This isn't uniquely male, but
this notion of like testosterone and
dopamine about novelty and how are we
creating novelty action at a distance.
Now, let's think about Only Fans or a
kid that's like addicted to social
media, watching YouTube all day long. I
have examples of this from friends, kids
that are like addicted to it. There's no
action at a at a distance. These
algorithms have, you know, as wonderful
as they are, right? We exist on them as
well, but they are they're designed in
your case, in my case, to teach people
things to take into the world, but they
are their own what we call closed loop.
They can create these loops where you
think you're making progress and then
you look up and it's like another day
went by. You did nothing.
>> You were on the consumer end of this
whole business. And it really is a
hijack of the dopamine. And I do think
the dopamine and testosterone system is
when we were talking about males.
>> Uh it is very possible that I'm just not
thinking about the right things. So
obviously I'm hyper aware of the way
that social media gives women anxiety
and that's obviously going to be deeply
problematic. But when I think about the
modern world, I think that we really
have swung from the moment you freed
women from sex equals conception. Like
their game has been more and more
possibilities opening up to them. So I
think the modern world for females has
really been an expansion of
opportunities. Not necessarily
positively in terms of like actual
emotional satisfaction outcome. Not
necessarily negatively. I'm just saying
it it is more there more opportunities.
Yeah. I mean academia and research
science, you know, used to be heavily
skewed male. Now, depending on the sub
field, right, because biology is a big
field, it's it's still not quite 50/50,
>> you know, but there are many more women
in the field than there were even when I
started. Um, but I agree that in
general, like there's been a there's
been a trend toward more openings,
>> a trend toward it. Yeah,
>> for sure. Now for guys on the other
hand, I think that things are getting
more and more narrow in terms of their
ability to navigate the world well. And
when I look at what are the things that
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And now, let's get back to the show. Not
to get too economical, but part of it is
just America since the '9s has been
outsourcing things, manufacturing very
specifically overseas as rapidly as
possible. It's caused the loss of
millions of jobs for just a certain type
of guy that that is evolutionarily wired
to use his body as this form of
intelligence. And so, you start gutting
that, you're going to have problems. And
so anyway, not to derail us on that, but
when I look at what's going on with
pornography for sure, and I think maybe
even more extremely with Only Fans, as I
started looking at, okay, what is Only
Fans? What is this hijacking? Why is
this working so well? So, if you put men
into the context of uh women are
hypergamous, so they're going to date
over or up, and as they enter the
workforce, that means that that pool is
getting smaller and smaller because
they're making more and more money. And
then men also in another context are
it's a very high-risisk situation of
being accused of something. And so
there's a a standoffishness. There's
also the whole idea of toxic
masculinity. So for decades and decades
were like making men more and more
paranoid about sort of natural impulses
which is making them less likely to
pursue females. Then you create
something like Only Fans. And I am so
curious to know if they if the people
that created it thought through it like
this. But when you really think about
it, to your point about action at a
distance, so you can influence this
person, whether it's just getting them
to engage with you. So I pay them money,
they engage with me, they either aren't
aware or don't think about the fact it's
probably not that person engaging with
them. It's their team writing them back.
But they feel like, okay, now I'm able
to have this relationship with this
person. and I'm able to have uh I'm able
to gain at least visual sexual access to
them. Things that I would not
historically been able to see. I forget
the the exact quote, but it's something
like a thousand years ago compared to
today, a man today can see more naked
females in a single day than that person
a thousand years ago would have seen in
their entire lifetime. And when you
think about that nested inside of the
social context of things have changed
for men and then the technological
context of the dopamine loops and how
easy it is to put on the phone female
nudity and then to make the person feel
like they have a relationship with them.
Once I understood only fans as
relational pornography where now it's
not. Sure like pornography is free but I
can't interact with that person or have
a proxy of it. And so then I was like oh
my god this is like pornography like
cubed quintupled like this is really for
somebody who would otherwise
be isolated by choice or otherwise.
You now give them this thing that they
don't have to be afraid of. There's no
fear of rejection. Uh they get access to
something that is legitimately exciting
to the male brain, which is the I get
I'll call it inappropriate, but I get
inappropriate or elevated levels of
access to
>> their body visually. And it's like, woo,
I get how now people end up if that's
the context that they're in. I get how
that drags them down fast. Yeah, I do
too. I hadn't realized there was this
relational aspect where the people who
pay can um can influence what they see.
I mean, that's um so they've captured
the relational aspect which is missing
from traditional pornography. Um that's
huge. The novelty aspect is somewhat
under their control in this case.
>> Yeah, women make the most money the
first month on Only Fans. It's I don't
know what the exact stat is, but the
vast vast vast majority first month they
come in that's going to be it because
all the guys that are paying have never
seen that person before. It's the
newness and novelty of it and then that
starts to decline fast
>> and it shifts standards. So, one thing
that's interesting is if you talk to the
evolutionary biologists, they'll tell
you, you know, what is this notion of um
women talking badly about uh other women
who sleep with a lot of people? What's
that about? I mean men will do that too.
That's a different phenomenon. But
what's that about? And the evolutionary
biology argument is well they need to do
that because if there are women who are
giving up sex sexual access without the
need for very much in return then the
cost is basically going down. It's sort
of a market market system.
>> Women act as a cartel.
>> They they price uh collude basically
>> right? So if that's happening then also
men's expectations of what women will or
won't do starts to shift. And so this is
why there's there's intense relational
sort of community control over how uh
female promiscuity is is viewed by other
women and by other men, right? Um men
oftentimes on X if if even if you're not
looking for it will um shame women for
for being promiscuous, right? Um there's
this woman who's like slept with all
these men and continues to more and more
men, right? Why is she such a
phenomenon? Well, she's such a
phenomenon. Um a cultural phenomenon or
whatever you want to call it. Um I'm not
applauding what she's doing. That's,
>> you know, her right. And I'm not I'm not
the guy to talk about the ethics.
>> Evolution is going to slap her about the
head, neck, and chest. I hate that it's
true. She's not going to get out
unscathed emotionally. Not not even just
from other people. Just evolution does
not want that.
>> Yeah. I mean, she's she's expanding the
upper threshold, right? I mean, that's
kind of her her thing, her shtick is to
expand the upper threshold. And as a
consequence, you know, um it's clear men
are paying for that. They're intrigued
by that, right? That they want to see
that. And yet, um I don't think that I'm
speculating here, but I don't think that
our men are running out in huge numbers
to try and put a ring on her finger and
make make her their own. And some
probably who have their own kind of
distorted sense of themselves in the
world. So the idea here is that you know
even just the uh realization that
there's an extreme like that creates
this upper ceiling on the kind of like
dopamine novelty thing like that's not
something I like ever conceived of right
like I never thought about that and then
you're you just see it out there. So it
shifts, you know, our standards of of
decency. It sh it shifts our standards
of sort of expectation. And we might
say, well, okay, well, she's a real
extreme in the same way that like, okay,
you see those people with like tons of
piercings and like covered in tattoos
every inch of their body. And then,
well, I remember growing up like we
didn't we didn't see many people with
face tattoos. Mike Tyson, I think, was
the first. And you're like, whoa. Now
people wouldn't even bat an eye,
>> you know? And so these the these sort of
standards what we call you know kind of
st cultural standards risky to call them
standards of decency because that's
getting for a scientist I'm not trying
to get into the moral judgment game but
what it does is it expands what we what
is possible in people's minds and
therefore what they consider novel is
over a bigger scale right so if the
upper limit is let's just call it like
arbitrary units 10 was something like
the pornography that like you might have
uh seen in the '9s on a videotape or
something and now what you know what
Bonnie Blue or someone else is doing is
that represents the 10. Well, then
everything up to a one has now been
compressed. Okay, not to get too like
overly technical here, but this this is
it's a it's very interesting because
you're you're the guy thinks about
markets and finances a lot. It's a
market system, right? And when we think
about dopamine, I think about dopamine
as the currency of motivation. I think
about is a young male or I or anyone
investing your dopamine. What's
dopamine? It's your motivation and
energy. Are you investing it or are you
just spending it? Now, you can get
things that are surely for pleasure,
right? I eat food. You could say, "Well,
the food gives you energy to do other
things." Okay, you get a nice painting
that gives you more energy and pleasure
because you you enjoy it. It's a it's
some visual feedback on kind of that
you've gotten to the point where you
could buy that. That's an investment of
your dopamine resources into money,
money into into some thing, a painting.
There's also just sheer spending of
dopamine, your time and your life
energy. You're not going to reproduce as
a consequence of being on Only Fans.
probably lowering your reproductive
potential either directly or
figuratively. Interesting.
>> And so and same thing with social media.
You can glean incredible valuable
content. I do, you do, we we we teach on
social media. We learn on social media
that then you can take into the real
world. But years ago, I think it's an
investor by the name of Chris Saka.
>> Yeah.
>> Um he talked about you're either a
consumer or a creator.
>> You're either consumer or creator. And I
sort of in my own mind expanded on that
and and decided well when I go to a
platform where I'm a consumer like
social media, I'm trying to glean things
that allow me to be a better creator off
platform and then bring those back to
platform. Now think about all these
people who are just consuming on social
media but it's not enriching their lives
in any way or they're consuming on only
fans and it's actually it's a it's a
it's a double whammy because it's taking
I mean time is the ultimate resource and
it's depleting their their motivational
drive and you know we used to hear about
this more that you know the sexual drive
is is one aspect of motivation but if
somebody is completely sad with food
with what they think is sex because of
an only fans interaction their
motivation to go do things in the world
and to create real relationship, real
business, real life is just it's going
to rapidly diminish. And as always, the
house takes it all.
>> Yeah.
>> I'm legitimately worried about that. I
don't know like what the like Okay, so
if I'm uh let's say I'm an eight on the
I think we have a real problem right
now, not just what we've been talking
about. But I've got a whole host of
things that I think are problematic. But
when I think about where we were in the
80s and the prospects that a young
person growing up in the 80s were going
to have in the future,
>> uh, look great. Now I look at that and I
think, ooh, we're we're at an 80%, this
is a problem status. Where would you put
us in terms of the severity of the
modern world?
>> Well, I think it's easier than ever to
get caught in the current that we're
talking about, just get carried along. I
think it was David Gogggins, the David
Gogggins that said, you know, nowadays
it's easier than ever to be exceptional.
I think
>> but that's because so many people are
getting caught up. That's the problem.
Like I agree with him.
>> So, so for those that can get out, that
can literally and and I think here if
somebody feels like they have to get on
YouTube, they have to I don't want to
ding YouTube, okay? I feel like, you
know, if somebody feels like it's
controlling them, like it's got them
instead of they've got it or Only Fans.
Certainly with Only Fans, the the only
answer is abstinence. Now, and I'm not
saying this from a moral perspective.
The only answer is you're never looking
at it again, which is going to send some
people into oblivion. They're like,
"Wait, why can't it just be a little
bit?" The same way that um they're now
called now it's called having alcohol
use disorder, what used to be called an
al somebody with alcoholism or an
alcoholic. You'd say, "How many drink,
you know, how many drinks can they
have?" Zero.
>> Right?
>> How many drinks? How do you do that? You
have to replace that behavior with
something useful like 12step like like a
rehab program like some sort of group
where you can really take that energy
and put it elsewhere and be rewarded for
those other new behaviors. This is the
hard part about only fans versus real
world relationship is it's you know
stopping is just one part of it but we
know based on all the science of
behavioral change and the dopamine
system etc. you need to give that person
a replacement behavior. And the reason
12step is so effective at treating, you
know, alcoholism, it's so that people
get sober and stay sober from drugs,
from alcohol, from other gambling
addiction. It's hard, but they have a
community in which the reward system is
now rooted around the sobriety they're
trying to achieve.
>> You know, and I may have told this story
before, but I have a good friend, his
kid was absolutely addicted to just
watching YouTube videos all day. His
friends had gone off to college. Smart
kid, he wasn't really holding a job
well. He had a bunch of other issues.
I'm not saying ADHD doesn't exist. I do
think it exists, but he had been
diagnosed with ADHD. He's on all the
classic meds and and the picture was
kind of bleak in year one after high
school, year two, year three, year four.
Fast forward to now, he's now a junior
in college on a hard major. How did he
do that? It started with him
understanding dopamine, him
understanding that it had him and going
full cold turkey.
>> Did you talk to him?
>> I did. Yeah, I did. And it was actually
the conversation with Anna LMK from
Stanford who really deserves the credit,
you know, author of Dopamine Nation.
>> All right. What's the magic sequence of
words? Like what was it?
>> It was look, it makes every bit of sense
why you feel like you have to do this,
but it's controlling you and you the
only way to regain control, like to get
the control panel back is to take a week
off. And he was just like, there's no
way. He was like, a week off? And so he
self-imposed a day. It was a classic one
day at a time kind of thing where he
could call me. He could call, you know,
this has now happened in several
instances with cannabis. Another
discussion. I'm not anti-cannabis for
everybody, but I know some people that
have really succumbed to like using
cannabis, dropping out of college,
losing their relationship, being online
all day, boom, losing their job also.
This is a real world scenario. Not I'm
not making this up. And then by going
full abstinence and then focusing on a
12step program in the case of the
cannabis um situation or in the other
case just doing a one day at a time
you're calling
>> stick with homeboy that he's watching
too much
>> he's texting me at the end of the day I
managed to get to the end of the day.
>> What was he doing during the day? He's
not just staring at a wall.
>> No, I mean I told him to get outside and
take a bike ride, take a walk, do
anything but at first it's just anything
but behavior. You're just
>> And when did that become drive? Because
so I've always uh I can't remember when,
but I had a parent ask me like, "Hey, my
kid is really in trouble
>> and I don't know what to do. We've tried
everything." And I was like, "Okay, if I
had one shot and I've I've got to
guarantee results." I was like, "Oh,
this is easy. It like you're never going
to do it, but I'll give you the answer
and it will work not 80% of the time or
90%. This will work 100% of the time. uh
get five people that he respects, kidnap
him, take him out onto a deserted
island, and those guys are going to do
things that he has to join them in doing
to earn their respect. And if he
respects them before they kidnap him and
take him out, he will conform to the
group.
>> And it's like all of this stuff to me,
and I get it. I this is one of the thing
that drives people crazy about me but
this like really seems if you understand
how the brain works if you accept men
and women are different. If you accept
we are not blank slates. If you go ah
men are goal oriented. Men want to be a
part of the pack. Men want to do the
things that are going to earn their
respect the respect of the group. Doing
hard things is I mean I wouldn't have
had the words to say that testosterone
makes effort feel good but it's like
effort feels good.
Sorry to interrupt. When there's
feedback when you accomplish something,
you know, wake up in the morning,
control something you can control. If
it's getting sunlight, but then do, you
know, get your sunlight, but then
hydrate, get, but do something that's
under your control and where you can
have an outcome that you know is a
positive investment of your energy, of
your dopamine that has a positive
feedback on the testosterone and
dopamine system. And lo and behold, you
have more energy
>> as opposed to spending it out. No, I
absolutely agree with your um kidnap and
take to uh um to a desert island, you
know, because it captures all the
elements of of how the the male brain
works and wants to participate and wants
to achieve things. I absolutely agree. I
think that, you know, we are a social
species and even though men, okay, maybe
we're not relational in the case like
you leave, you know, five average males
in a in a room, they're not going to
play, you know, they're not going to
play house and like, you know, they're
going to play they're going to play like
um kick you in the face. Yeah. they're
going to beat each other up or like you
know like wrestling someone's going to
be jumping off the top and like you know
like suplexing people like that's males
right you know and and sure there are
exceptions to that there are less
physical males etc but at some point
there has to be that effort dopamine
reward action loop and the the thing is
that effort dopamine reward action loop
is in the only fans interaction it's in
all sorts of interactions the problem is
when you're deep in that you know in
that trench it's impossible to see that
you're not going anywhere. You're
treadmilling. You're not going anywhere.
In most cases, you're spiraling down.
And it's it's just very hard to see
because that dopamine and and the state
of arousal that it creates puts you into
a warped world where your time binning
starts getting very fine. You're just
focused on the next increment, the next
increment, the next increment. And it's
like we talk about getting out and
getting perspective. Very hard to do.
Very hard to do. And I do think you're
right. I think we need to yank ourselves
out or have someone yank us out of that
scenario. In this case, we set something
up where he had to call me every single
day or text me every single day.
Although, I realized calling was more
important because texting people are
much more willing to kind of like, oh,
yeah, did it, but they actually didn't.
Now, it took some time. I'm not going to
say there weren't some relapses, but
over time, he got to see the difference
between how he felt when he relapsed
versus how he had felt right before.
Sure, he went through the same shame
cycle like I'm weak and then back on the
horse and kept going.
>> You know, it's um it's an incredible
thing. Now, I have to say he's not my
kid, but it's incredible. I've known
since he was a little one to see him
like in, you know, in his junior year of
college, he's in a relationship, like he
takes care of himself, he ex like he's
going to be, if he stays on track, a
fully functional male in society, but it
was looking super bleak. And the parents
have all the makings of like a
reasonably educated, reasonably happy
home, you know, no major trauma, none of
that. It was just it was his SRY gene
susceptibility to things that were
happening at that time and he almost
became one of the failure to launches.
>> Yeah, this is uh this is one of those
things just trying to get people to
understand that we are not blank slates
is like part of my mission. So, uh, for
people that join me on the lives,
they'll have heard this like a gazillion
times. But I really feel like I'm in a
battle for the soul of America right
now. And really getting people to
understand that, uh, one, just you're
having a biological experience. So, you
have got to come to understand your
biology. Stop judging it. Stop trying to
like cram everybody into an overly
modern box. The fascinating thing is I'm
probably the most optimistic about
what's on the other side of this weird
space that we're in where we metabolize
the technological revolution much like
the industrial revolution literally
changed the world in ways we never could
have predicted and going through that
I'm sure was extremely tumultuous and it
was just whenever you're going through
that kind of upheaval of structure there
going to be people that fall down that
get crushed by the rubble you obviously
metaphorically, but then you get to the
other side, but you're you don't get to
the other side by accident. You either
just burn through the transitionary
people and they have a hard time of it,
life sucks, whatever, but they die. You
have some big war and then you're on the
other side of it and then we're just
forced to adapt. Or if you can orient
yourself to what's actually going on,
then you can avoid the problems. But you
have to understand your biology. You
have to know what the potential dangers
are. And so when I look at Only Fans,
going from just complete confusion to,
oh, okay, I get what this is now, and
now I see it as something that's even
more dangerous than I thought it was
before in terms of its ability to suck
you in when you you have to take it in
the grander context of uh we've been
telling boys that males are toxic. Uh
men don't necessarily understand
hypergamy and like sexual market value
and you have to understand that. and
then making it such that um men are
being like you're always in danger of
being put on blast on social media for a
bad text or DM or whatever. And so now
you've got like the the fear centers
going crazy. And up right there comes
this real easy serve up. And so the
things that we have to talk about, the
things we have to draw circles around
and say, "Okay, this is why this is a
problem. You've got to watch out for
that. You're going to need a substitute
for that." So like what is that thing
that you're going to be doing? Um, but
to create the new thing for them to be
doing, you you cannot demonize the
things that they're naturally drawn
towards. And I think that's where we run
into trouble.
>> Yeah. I think uh amen to that. I mean, I
I think that explaining to men that
what's been hijacked reflects the best
part about their biology, their deepest
like circuits of effectiveness, but
they've been hijacked and they're being
misused to someone else's gain. I think
that's an important part of the
messaging to get people out of that
loop. I think it's the first step. Not
just like, oh, you know, it got me, you
know, but the idea that because I do
think that another aspect of of maleness
is this idea like nobody wants to be
controlled, right? That you're the
you're the agent of control. And, you
know, it's James Hollis, the great
psychoanalyst, who, you know, he wrote
he has this incredible lecture on online
called Creating a Life. I invite him on
my podcast. He's 84 years old. And I'm
like, what's the what's the key? You
know, he's he's so aware of what a
really good life looks like for men and
for women. and he's done written a lot
on men's trauma. He wrote a book called
Under Saturn Shadow, which is a really
powerful book specifically about men's
trauma. This is years ago before
everything was therapized, you know.
>> Why Saturn? What's Saturn?
>> Oh, I forget the the notion of of um
this has to do with some um uh mythical
text. He's a very he's much more
scholarly about those things than me.
So, for forgive me um the for not for
not knowing, but he he said, "Look, the
solution to this is actually quite
simple but quite hard." this being
modern life is like messing up
>> like directing your life being the agent
of control in your life especially if
you're male but also if you're female
but since we're talking about men which
is you have to yes develop a sense of I
think he calls it you know suit up show
up and you know and work like you just
have to have that like okay it's time to
work it's just like time like you did
with with your business and you continue
to do or jo you just got to show up you
know suit up show up and get to work you
have to develop that you also have to
have a place where you reflect and
decide where you're going to direct your
energies. And that has to come first and
then you just keep looping the two. And
he talks about it not as a form of
meditation, but literally a stopping for
even just a few minutes a day. And it
sounds so simple, but it's hard to do
where you literally just close your eyes
and you think like, is my energy being
directed in the in the areas and
directions that make sense for me? Am I
building my life? and you set some
intentionality because we hear all the
thing you know between stimulus and
response is you know this this buffer
very hard when you're in the moment and
you know these algorithms are so damn
good at looping us in that we can either
because really they do one of two
things. They either allow us to numb out
and pass time or they give us just
enough arousal kind of rage bait and
engagement or like intrigue like sexual
intrigue or like maybe you're looking at
um you know like cute pup maybe like
cute puppies. it's not sexual at all or
maybe it's rage bait or maybe it's a
fight where someone gets punched in the
face. You know, open up X, you can see
all of these things. It will find the
hook. So, the idea is that you you set
your, for lack of a better word, your
intention about and you understand that
you have this energy that you were born
with that's replenishable. It's again
all hearkens back to dopamine. It's, you
know, you can you can deplete it, but
it's replenishable. And you start
thinking, how am I investing that? And
then the the key thing is to at some
point relatively early in the day, you
have to invest in something that has a a
logical and real payoff for the for the
expansion and growth of your life. And
even even if you write a paragraph, even
if you you know um as long as you are
investing in your future in some way,
it's the difference between a dollar
spent and a dollar invested or a dollar
wasted and a dollar invested.
>> And I think that Hollis really nails it
with that. It starts with this like
recognition and then subtle subtle
things that control your