Kind: captions
Language: en
From the year 2000 to today, the average
male's testosterone levels have dropped
by more than 25%.
And modern life is only making the
problem worse. Algorithms are now so
effective at hijacking the male brain's
dopamine system that millions of men are
stuck in loops of porn, Only Fans, and
endless scrolling, feeling like they're
making progress, but in reality, they're
stuck. According to my guest today,
Stanford neuroscientist Andrew Huberman,
modern life is uniquely disrupting the
male brain. In this interview, he
details the trap that men are falling
into, as well as exactly what they need
to do to climb out and optimize for
success. If you're a man or you love
one, you're not going to want to miss
this episode. So, without further ado, I
bring you Andrew Huber.
Modern life seems to be hijacking men's
brains. So whether it's porn, only fans,
social media, you've got men that are
depressed, demotivated, unable to form
relationships. What do you think is the
actual breakdown?
I think what's happening is that the
technology aka the algorithms have
gotten so good at tapping into the
circuits for motivation that they've
basically pulled many males focus and
efforts into this very narrow groove of
pursuit. And you would ask any of those
guys like what are you actually
pursuing? Like like is the thing that
you're you're chasing is there a payoff?
and they'd probably say, "No, I realize
there's not, but I can't stop."
>> That's why.
>> And you know, we've talked before about
dopamine, and I think nowadays most
people appreciate that dopamine is about
motivation and pursuit, at least as much
as it's about pleasure, or at least the
things that we're motivated to do at
first bring us pleasure, the drug, the
gambling, the pornography, etc. But that
very quickly over time, it keeps us in
the groove of pursuit. And that groove
is getting tighter and tighter but the
pleasure value starts dropping dropping
dropping dropping dropping.
>> Now do you think that male acquisition
of goals like the obsession with that is
uh disproportionately
affected by the modern dopamine
hijacking things like social media or is
this universal to men and women?
>> I think at the extremes of sort of male
female stereotypes I think yes. I think
that if you think about video games,
porn, maybe not so much social media. I
mean, social media is social, right?
It's about who's saying what about who.
And you know, sure, there's this pursuit
of followers and pursuit of likes that,
you know, I think all people are um
susceptible to in good or bad ways. But
when I look at Instagram for instance, a
platform I love and teach on and learn
from and I look at X, I would say X
tends to be sort of male-dominated
>> in kind of and its essence is kind of
more masculine. People are the things
that people are saying, how they're
saying it,
>> they're trying to convince you.
>> They're trying to convince you. And it
and it tends to be um less about who's
talking about who. They might show
something bad uh that somebody said, but
Instagram is far more relational. The
way that comments are structured,
comments on comments, there's
discussions down there that you can see
then the way um videos are pulled and re
reposted. It's um X feels more linear
and it feels more kind of um direct to
one statement. It's like, okay, here's
somebody being bad. Here's someone
beating somebody up. Here's someone
being an idiot. here's them being, you
know, um, morons about the economy or
morons about the election or, you know,
whereas Instagram, if you if you look at
the stuff that gets really high high
salience, it tends to be more
relational.
>> Um, and I think that I could be wrong
about this. I don't know that the behind
the scenes uh numbers, but that's that's
the way they feel to me. I think that
the Y chromosome, you know, which uh
basically is deterministic for maleness,
you know, I basically well, there's a
gene is I would have thought the Y
chromosome, but it turns out there's a
gene on the Y chromosome called SRY and
all the, you know, genes, you know,
eventually is DNA, RNA, and then
proteins. So proteins are the kind of
the action end of the business. But all
of the proteins that are downstream of
of the SRY gene, SRY is a transcription
factor, turns on and off a bunch of
different genes. So it's kind of sets up
a menu. That SRY gene and the things on
it suppress
the malarian ducts, the fallopian tubes,
the ovaries, and creates the male
genitalia. And it also organizes the
brain to be male. And I'll explain how
it does that in a moment if you want.
But what's so interesting is is if that
SRY gene is transllocated to the X
chromosome and this has happened in
humans, you get two X chromosomes. you
have an SRY gene and you get a true
biological male penis whole thing
>> and fertile, right? And fertile because
there are cases for instance of where um
you have XY for instance an SRY gene,
you get testosterone, you get all the
different testosterone uh you know
things like dihydrotestosterone
etc. But there's a deficient androgen
receptor. So that testosterone has no
action end. It can't really work you
know it can't engage in the receptor the
parking slot and have an effect. What
you end up with is a biological male who
looks female, testes that don't descend,
and then they're infertile basically. So
you got a bi chromosomally male, but it
looks female. It's fairly rare. Okay,
but what we can say is that the SRY gene
is deterministic for creating a male.
And so then you say, well, what genes
are downstream of SRY? And the one
that's really interesting is
dihydrotestosterone, DHT. Not to get too
deep into the biochemistry, but
testosterone, which we're all familiar
with, made by the testes, gets converted
into dihydrotestosterone by an enzyme
called five alpha reductase.
During embryionic development, when you
and I were in the embryo downstream of
SR, we made DHT. We made testosterone.
Some of it was converted to DHT. That
set up the brain, your brain and my
brain to be male later when it was
exposed to testosterone. So when you
come into the world, provided you had
the SRY gene and it's functional, your
brain is organized male and your
genitalia are organized male. And then
when when you get a testosterone surge
during puberty, the penis grows, the
brain and the brain areas that are
larger or smaller in males become that
way. And then those circuits basically
make you male. This is what we call
deterministic because for instance,
there's a genetic mutation
where, believe it or not, males, XY
males with the SRY gene, are born. They
don't actually convert testosterone into
DHT, and they appear as biological
females across development. They look
that they it doesn't look like they have
a penis. It looks like they have a
vagina. They um and it it turns out
actually they have testes that haven't
descended yet. And then during puberty,
testosterone is secreted from the testes
and they literally sprout a penis. It's
called it's calledosis. the it's penis
at 12. It's a genetic genetic related
mutation and it's well known about in in
these uh communities where it exists
because there's enough of you know
enough of these have occurred that what
we can say from these kind of wild you
know these are kind of um unusual
circumstances is that there's an SRY
gene you get male you get a male brain
and you get a male body if there isn't
an SRY gene even if you have XY
chromosomes you get a female body. So,
you know, the biologists have really
boiled it down to that. Now, you know,
>> no, sorry, really fast.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Uh, so we'll wrap this up and then I
definitely want to get back to uh the
way that I think modern life is breaking
male brains. I think uniquely, so it'll
be interesting to see your take on that
since you'll have the data to back it
up. But I am stuck on a kid is 12. Uh,
he has a clitoris
>> and then it literally becomes is it a
micro penis at the end of this?
>> Pretty much.
>> Okay. So, this is bad news bears. Like,
if you've got that, you're really buming
out.
>> Uh, yeah. And they they often don't
know. They sort of don't know that
they're male or female. It's sort of
like, you know,
>> so they end up being surprised. Is this
what people mean when they say interex
or is that a totally different?
>> That's different. That's different.
Yeah, that's different.
>> Not to derail on that.
>> That's not to derail, but but and we
get, you know, but then let's think
about what's when we talk about the
brain being organized male, like what is
that, right? So, everyone's familiar
with testosterone. Best way to describe
testosterone is a molecule that in
addition to being important for sperm
function and libido and things like
that, testosterone makes effort feel
good.
>> Testosterone and dopamine
>> Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I've never
heard that.
>> Yeah. And and in fact, there have been
studies where testosterone has been
administered to adult males and what you
find is that whatever psychological
traits and behavioral traits they tend
to already have just get amplified. In
fact, there's a really nice study that
my colleague Robert Seapolski, the great
Robert Solski taught me about, which was
if you, for instance, go to uh an
auction and you give some males
testosterone, they'll try and outbid
other men, which sounds like, oh, they
want to own all the stuff. Now, if I
tell you that the because this is
actually the case that the auction was
actually um an altruistic auction that
all the benefits went to charity. These
guys with more testosterone are
basically fighting and giving up
resources
>> to give more resources away. So, it's
not that testosterone makes people
jerks. However, if somebody's a jerk and
they have and they're given
testosterone, they'll become more of a
jerk. It tends to just amplify whatever
behavioral trait somebody has.
>> I remember what Seapolski was saying,
and please correct me if I'm wrong. It
was whatever like testosterone is going
to make the man want to win at the thing
that gives him status. So if you get
status by winning the give away your
money auction, then cool, you're going
to do that. It almost doesn't matter
what the thing is. That's right.
>> It's not like it's necessarily making
them more altruistic. It's just making
them want to win at the status game.
>> That's right. Yeah. So you you put a
finer point on it and and you're
correct. So, I think
>> that's interesting. And this is part of
what I'm getting at when I say that I
think modern life is uniquely breaking
the male brain is it's giving these
proxies for um status seeking
>> and it's giving you a different set of
games to play that are not translating
well into real life. Yeah.
>> And so you're maybe you're winning at
social media, but you're not actually
translating that into a job. Or maybe
you're winning at, and one of the things
I most want to talk about is Only Fans.
Like you're getting this signal that
you've accomplished something, acquired
something, you've got relational access
to a woman,
>> and it's somehow like giving you this
signal that you did the thing you came
to do,
>> but it's such a bizarre proxy. Like Only
Fans, I did not understand it. When I
first heard that it was real, I was
like, there's no way that people pay
money for that. I actually I'm like they
do know that porn is free, right? I
could not fathom it. So, uh am I off
base here? Like what like as you think
about Only Fans as a specific phenomena,
what do you think is happening there?
>> Yeah. Well, I think when I think about
testosterone, the one other point that I
want to make is that it tends to
suppress activity the amydala, which is
why it can make effort feel good. It
tends to suppress fear. It tends to make
pe effort feel good as opposed to effort
feel scary. do that by dulling or
dimming down the fear response.
>> That's right. It brings So things that
are challenging bring about less
anxiety. So you're able to apply more
effort with less anxiety generally
speaking. Okay. Um the dopamine system
and the testosterone system are
intimately related especially in the
male brain.
>> Okay. So dopamine the molecule of
motivation and so forth as we know is
associated with you know the p the
pleasure of pursuit as opposed to the
pursuit of pleasure. another beautiful
Robert Seapolskiism. So, I didn't say
that he did. Um, but I'm borrowing it.
Let's think about a kid sitting down to
play um like video game. You love video
games. Video games can be very healthy,
right? You get a score, you're
motivated, you it's sort of updating
with what? With novelty, right? As you
progress, you get to access more in
different worlds and more in different
experiences. This is also true in the
nonverirtual world, right? in the in the
so-called real world. This is also true
in Only Fans to the extent I've never
gone on only fans full at foot mittens,
but I think I know what it's generally
about. You pay money, you can see things
that are stimulating, right? Arousing,
right? That's the idea.
>> As one does that, there's there's the
tendency for people to seek more and
more intense experiences. Why? because
the same amount of dopamine isn't being
deployed as you go into it for the first
time as you go into it the 10th time and
the hundth time and so forth. So people
are willing to invest more effort or and
or money in order to go further and
further into this terrain. I think that
the the most important
>> what do you consider the terrain there?
>> Ah right. So are you familiar with
Michael Easter the comfort crisis? He
wrote the book comfort.
>> Yeah I've had him on the show. Yeah. So
he shared with me that there's this very
interesting study or set of studies
being done at a experimental casino in
Las Vegas. He lives out in Las Vegas. A
few years back, somebody who worked for
the casinos saw his kid playing video
games and the light bulb went off for
him.
I'll fast forward. 85% 85% of the
revenue from casinos comes from slot
machines. That didn't used to be the
case. I know. I know. I didn't believe
it. I was like, there's no way. Here's
here's what the the bit the massive
shift from slot machines being a small
percentage to the vast majority of the
income for casinos was. He saw his kid
playing video games and he saw that in
video games there's a near infinite
number of experiences that a kid can
encounter with playing the game. Now
there's some constraints, right? You're
the player this and that but in theory
you could introduce any number of
different worlds or experiences
>> and dynamics. So what he did is he
brought that that to the casino world
and instead of having slot machines
where it just would roll numbers or
fruit or you know crowns or whatever,
they created electronic versions of this
where yes, you could update more
quickly. Instead of pulling a lever, you
could press a button. But more
importantly, it could create an infinite
number of electronic combinations. So
that as the person was starting to kind
of grow tired, and the algorithm could
tell would grow tired of, you know,
trying to line up muffins with ice cream
cones, they would start switching out
cake for ice cream cones and like uh
little anime uh girls for for the other,
you know, for whatever else the other
thing was. And over time what they found
is people would just keep playing and
playing for even the smallest and
actually increasingly smaller changes in
novelty. So the newness of only fans at
the beginning is not what you need to
recreate in order to keep the brain
paying the same amount or even more to
keep going. What you need is novelty.
And the brain because of the way
dopamine is deployed in smaller and
smaller amounts and is giving smaller
and smaller amounts of pleasure,
especially if you ping it with an
occasional big burst of pleasure every
once in a while or more big more
dopamine. All you need to do to keep
somebody paying in a landscape is give
them new experiences intermittently.
Good oldfashioned intermittent
reinforcement. But now the reinforcement
isn't necessarily a bigger monetary win
or you know seeing you know here I'm I'm
hypothesizing you know I mean you can
only introduce so many different players
in a in a pornographic scene right so
many different things so they started
changing the novelty in subtle ways and
it keeps people going and going and
going and I'm not going to say that the
male brain is uniquely susceptible to
this but because of the relationship
between testosterone and dopamine and
the tendency for the male brain in its
most stereotypical form, but let's just
stick with that being really in pursuit
of things that are sort of forward
linear motion like looking for the next
thing. I was just talking about this in
the discussion I had uh with your wife,
which was, you know, men like to
concentrate on what's happening now and
forward movement. Generally speaking,
we're not really like defaulting to
let's talk about the past for a while.
Let's think about the past. Let's rehash
the past. That's not not a a typical uh
male phenotype. It exists but it's and
and it has its importance but that's not
where what we default to and that has a
lot to do with the fact that I do think
a lot of the circuits for testosterone
are about
how can I have action out there right
stereotypically the female brain is more
oriented towards relational things
>> and with men it's like how can I have an
impact out there like impact theory
literally or let's think about Elon
wanting to send things to Mars or let's
think about the first time like you know
caveman probably picked up a a rock,
they probably after they hit themselves
in the head with it, they probably hit
the person next to them. Ah, that hurts,
that hurts, and like let's throw it
against that wall and see if it breaks
and then let's see if we can hunt
something, get a better meal. It's about
action at a distance. And I'll tell you,
I mean, I love watching the rockets
launch. It's just it's the one of the
ultimate expressions of seeing like
human engineering at a distance. Like
you're having this huge impact, whereas
most of the things in life you can't
really control. They're out there and
you can observe them. Watch the sunset,
beautiful, watch the sunrise. I'm all
about that. But ultimately, our careers,
our lives, our feelings of what we've
accomplished are about creating action
at a distance.
>> And it doesn't mean that the further the
distance, the more impactful it is, but
it human evolution has has largely
ridden this wave of this desire to like
let's see what happens if and that's not
like, oh, let's see what happens if we
like, you know, etch a small, you know,
uh, you know, note in the sand. It's
like, "No, let's see what happens if we
draw a mural like as big as that wall
and then I don't know. Let's see if we
can like throw someone over that wall."
Like this is like this is the this is
the sy gene in action, right? I'm only
half
>> leave you alone for like an hour to come
up with all the things that guys like
like you know, okay, there's relational
stuff, but you know, I had a sister. I
have a sister. I mean, they would play
in aroma like, "Okay, you play this and
you do this." And it was like very
relational. They weren't like, "Let's
see if we can, I don't know, go like
build a giant, you know, ramp in the
backyard and like jump over the
neighbor's fence like a bunch of idiots
and get impaled on it, you know?" So,
you can sort of make it out to where the
outcome is uh, you know, kind of sounds
like male stupidity, but if we really
step back, this is beautiful. This is
essential to human evolution. This is
why we have the fields that we do, which
now of course include men and women,
right? This isn't uniquely male, but
this notion of like testosterone and
dopamine about novelty and how are we
creating novelty action at a distance.
Now, let's think about Only Fans or a
kid that's like addicted to social
media, watching YouTube all day long. I
have examples of this from friends, kids
that are like addicted to it. There's no
action at a at a distance. These
algorithms have, you know, as wonderful
as they are, right? We exist on them as
well, but they are they're designed in
your case, in my case, to teach people
things to take into the world, but they
are their own what we call closed loop.
They can create these loops where you
think you're making progress and then
you look up and it's like another day
went by. You did nothing.
>> You were on the consumer end of this
whole business. And it really is a
hijack of the dopamine. And I do think
the dopamine and testosterone system is
when we were talking about males.
>> Uh it is very possible that I'm just not
thinking about the right things. So
obviously I'm hyper aware of the way
that social media gives women anxiety
and that's obviously going to be deeply
problematic. But when I think about the
modern world, I think that we really
have swung from the moment you freed
women from sex equals conception. Like
their game has been more and more
possibilities opening up to them. So I
think the modern world for females has
really been an expansion of
opportunities. Not necessarily
positively in terms of like actual
emotional satisfaction outcome. Not
necessarily negatively. I'm just saying
it it is more there more opportunities.
Yeah. I mean academia and research
science, you know, used to be heavily
skewed male. Now, depending on the sub
field, right, because biology is a big
field, it's it's still not quite 50/50,
>> you know, but there are many more women
in the field than there were even when I
started. Um, but I agree that in
general, like there's been a there's
been a trend toward more openings,
>> a trend toward it. Yeah,
>> for sure. Now for guys on the other
hand, I think that things are getting
more and more narrow in terms of their
ability to navigate the world well. And
when I look at what are the things that
are trapping them, we'll get back to the
show in a moment. But first, let me tell
you my go-to when I need something
nourishing and quick. When I'm hungry
but don't have time for a full meal, I
reach for Paleo Valley's chocolate bone
broth protein. I cannot tell you how
much of this I actually eat. I throw it
in a blender with some ice and 30
seconds later, I have got a frozen treat
that's actually good for me. One scoop
gives you 13 grams of premium protein
from grass-fed beef bones, not cheap
hides like most products use. The
chocolate favor is rich and incredible.
It's delicious, smooth, and satisfying
without any artificial junk. The
collagen supports supple skin and
natural wrinkle defense while you're
satisfying that sweet craving. You can
blend in hot for a warming drink or cold
like I do for that frozen treat
experience. Plus, you've got all kinds
of options. Vanilla, salted caramel,
unflavored, or stick with my favorite,
chocolate. Right now, Paleo Valley is
running an insane deal. Buy 1 get one
free on bone broth protein. Make sure to
click my link below and get the buy 1
get one free deal on bone broth protein.
And now, let's get back to the show. Not
to get too economical, but part of it is
just America since the '9s has been
outsourcing things, manufacturing very
specifically overseas as rapidly as
possible. It's caused the loss of
millions of jobs for just a certain type
of guy that that is evolutionarily wired
to use his body as this form of
intelligence. And so, you start gutting
that, you're going to have problems. And
so anyway, not to derail us on that, but
when I look at what's going on with
pornography for sure, and I think maybe
even more extremely with Only Fans, as I
started looking at, okay, what is Only
Fans? What is this hijacking? Why is
this working so well? So, if you put men
into the context of uh women are
hypergamous, so they're going to date
over or up, and as they enter the
workforce, that means that that pool is
getting smaller and smaller because
they're making more and more money. And
then men also in another context are
it's a very high-risisk situation of
being accused of something. And so
there's a a standoffishness. There's
also the whole idea of toxic
masculinity. So for decades and decades
were like making men more and more
paranoid about sort of natural impulses
which is making them less likely to
pursue females. Then you create
something like Only Fans. And I am so
curious to know if they if the people
that created it thought through it like
this. But when you really think about
it, to your point about action at a
distance, so you can influence this
person, whether it's just getting them
to engage with you. So I pay them money,
they engage with me, they either aren't
aware or don't think about the fact it's
probably not that person engaging with
them. It's their team writing them back.
But they feel like, okay, now I'm able
to have this relationship with this
person. and I'm able to have uh I'm able
to gain at least visual sexual access to
them. Things that I would not
historically been able to see. I forget
the the exact quote, but it's something
like a thousand years ago compared to
today, a man today can see more naked
females in a single day than that person
a thousand years ago would have seen in
their entire lifetime. And when you
think about that nested inside of the
social context of things have changed
for men and then the technological
context of the dopamine loops and how
easy it is to put on the phone female
nudity and then to make the person feel
like they have a relationship with them.
Once I understood only fans as
relational pornography where now it's
not. Sure like pornography is free but I
can't interact with that person or have
a proxy of it. And so then I was like oh
my god this is like pornography like
cubed quintupled like this is really for
somebody who would otherwise
be isolated by choice or otherwise.
You now give them this thing that they
don't have to be afraid of. There's no
fear of rejection. Uh they get access to
something that is legitimately exciting
to the male brain, which is the I get
I'll call it inappropriate, but I get
inappropriate or elevated levels of
access to
>> their body visually. And it's like, woo,
I get how now people end up if that's
the context that they're in. I get how
that drags them down fast. Yeah, I do
too. I hadn't realized there was this
relational aspect where the people who
pay can um can influence what they see.
I mean, that's um so they've captured
the relational aspect which is missing
from traditional pornography. Um that's
huge. The novelty aspect is somewhat
under their control in this case.
>> Yeah, women make the most money the
first month on Only Fans. It's I don't
know what the exact stat is, but the
vast vast vast majority first month they
come in that's going to be it because
all the guys that are paying have never
seen that person before. It's the
newness and novelty of it and then that
starts to decline fast
>> and it shifts standards. So, one thing
that's interesting is if you talk to the
evolutionary biologists, they'll tell
you, you know, what is this notion of um
women talking badly about uh other women
who sleep with a lot of people? What's
that about? I mean men will do that too.
That's a different phenomenon. But
what's that about? And the evolutionary
biology argument is well they need to do
that because if there are women who are
giving up sex sexual access without the
need for very much in return then the
cost is basically going down. It's sort
of a market market system.
>> Women act as a cartel.
>> They they price uh collude basically
>> right? So if that's happening then also
men's expectations of what women will or
won't do starts to shift. And so this is
why there's there's intense relational
sort of community control over how uh
female promiscuity is is viewed by other
women and by other men, right? Um men
oftentimes on X if if even if you're not
looking for it will um shame women for
for being promiscuous, right? Um there's
this woman who's like slept with all
these men and continues to more and more
men, right? Why is she such a
phenomenon? Well, she's such a
phenomenon. Um a cultural phenomenon or
whatever you want to call it. Um I'm not
applauding what she's doing. That's,
>> you know, her right. And I'm not I'm not
the guy to talk about the ethics.
>> Evolution is going to slap her about the
head, neck, and chest. I hate that it's
true. She's not going to get out
unscathed emotionally. Not not even just
from other people. Just evolution does
not want that.
>> Yeah. I mean, she's she's expanding the
upper threshold, right? I mean, that's
kind of her her thing, her shtick is to
expand the upper threshold. And as a
consequence, you know, um it's clear men
are paying for that. They're intrigued
by that, right? That they want to see
that. And yet, um I don't think that I'm
speculating here, but I don't think that
our men are running out in huge numbers
to try and put a ring on her finger and
make make her their own. And some
probably who have their own kind of
distorted sense of themselves in the
world. So the idea here is that you know
even just the uh realization that
there's an extreme like that creates
this upper ceiling on the kind of like
dopamine novelty thing like that's not
something I like ever conceived of right
like I never thought about that and then
you're you just see it out there. So it
shifts, you know, our standards of of
decency. It sh it shifts our standards
of sort of expectation. And we might
say, well, okay, well, she's a real
extreme in the same way that like, okay,
you see those people with like tons of
piercings and like covered in tattoos
every inch of their body. And then,
well, I remember growing up like we
didn't we didn't see many people with
face tattoos. Mike Tyson, I think, was
the first. And you're like, whoa. Now
people wouldn't even bat an eye,
>> you know? And so these the these sort of
standards what we call you know kind of
st cultural standards risky to call them
standards of decency because that's
getting for a scientist I'm not trying
to get into the moral judgment game but
what it does is it expands what we what
is possible in people's minds and
therefore what they consider novel is
over a bigger scale right so if the
upper limit is let's just call it like
arbitrary units 10 was something like
the pornography that like you might have
uh seen in the '9s on a videotape or
something and now what you know what
Bonnie Blue or someone else is doing is
that represents the 10. Well, then
everything up to a one has now been
compressed. Okay, not to get too like
overly technical here, but this this is
it's a it's very interesting because
you're you're the guy thinks about
markets and finances a lot. It's a
market system, right? And when we think
about dopamine, I think about dopamine
as the currency of motivation. I think
about is a young male or I or anyone
investing your dopamine. What's
dopamine? It's your motivation and
energy. Are you investing it or are you
just spending it? Now, you can get
things that are surely for pleasure,
right? I eat food. You could say, "Well,
the food gives you energy to do other
things." Okay, you get a nice painting
that gives you more energy and pleasure
because you you enjoy it. It's a it's
some visual feedback on kind of that
you've gotten to the point where you
could buy that. That's an investment of
your dopamine resources into money,
money into into some thing, a painting.
There's also just sheer spending of
dopamine, your time and your life
energy. You're not going to reproduce as
a consequence of being on Only Fans.
probably lowering your reproductive
potential either directly or
figuratively. Interesting.
>> And so and same thing with social media.
You can glean incredible valuable
content. I do, you do, we we we teach on
social media. We learn on social media
that then you can take into the real
world. But years ago, I think it's an
investor by the name of Chris Saka.
>> Yeah.
>> Um he talked about you're either a
consumer or a creator.
>> You're either consumer or creator. And I
sort of in my own mind expanded on that
and and decided well when I go to a
platform where I'm a consumer like
social media, I'm trying to glean things
that allow me to be a better creator off
platform and then bring those back to
platform. Now think about all these
people who are just consuming on social
media but it's not enriching their lives
in any way or they're consuming on only
fans and it's actually it's a it's a
it's a double whammy because it's taking
I mean time is the ultimate resource and
it's depleting their their motivational
drive and you know we used to hear about
this more that you know the sexual drive
is is one aspect of motivation but if
somebody is completely sad with food
with what they think is sex because of
an only fans interaction their
motivation to go do things in the world
and to create real relationship, real
business, real life is just it's going
to rapidly diminish. And as always, the
house takes it all.
>> Yeah.
>> I'm legitimately worried about that. I
don't know like what the like Okay, so
if I'm uh let's say I'm an eight on the
I think we have a real problem right
now, not just what we've been talking
about. But I've got a whole host of
things that I think are problematic. But
when I think about where we were in the
80s and the prospects that a young
person growing up in the 80s were going
to have in the future,
>> uh, look great. Now I look at that and I
think, ooh, we're we're at an 80%, this
is a problem status. Where would you put
us in terms of the severity of the
modern world?
>> Well, I think it's easier than ever to
get caught in the current that we're
talking about, just get carried along. I
think it was David Gogggins, the David
Gogggins that said, you know, nowadays
it's easier than ever to be exceptional.
I think
>> but that's because so many people are
getting caught up. That's the problem.
Like I agree with him.
>> So, so for those that can get out, that
can literally and and I think here if
somebody feels like they have to get on
YouTube, they have to I don't want to
ding YouTube, okay? I feel like, you
know, if somebody feels like it's
controlling them, like it's got them
instead of they've got it or Only Fans.
Certainly with Only Fans, the the only
answer is abstinence. Now, and I'm not
saying this from a moral perspective.
The only answer is you're never looking
at it again, which is going to send some
people into oblivion. They're like,
"Wait, why can't it just be a little
bit?" The same way that um they're now
called now it's called having alcohol
use disorder, what used to be called an
al somebody with alcoholism or an
alcoholic. You'd say, "How many drink,
you know, how many drinks can they
have?" Zero.
>> Right?
>> How many drinks? How do you do that? You
have to replace that behavior with
something useful like 12step like like a
rehab program like some sort of group
where you can really take that energy
and put it elsewhere and be rewarded for
those other new behaviors. This is the
hard part about only fans versus real
world relationship is it's you know
stopping is just one part of it but we
know based on all the science of
behavioral change and the dopamine
system etc. you need to give that person
a replacement behavior. And the reason
12step is so effective at treating, you
know, alcoholism, it's so that people
get sober and stay sober from drugs,
from alcohol, from other gambling
addiction. It's hard, but they have a
community in which the reward system is
now rooted around the sobriety they're
trying to achieve.
>> You know, and I may have told this story
before, but I have a good friend, his
kid was absolutely addicted to just
watching YouTube videos all day. His
friends had gone off to college. Smart
kid, he wasn't really holding a job
well. He had a bunch of other issues.
I'm not saying ADHD doesn't exist. I do
think it exists, but he had been
diagnosed with ADHD. He's on all the
classic meds and and the picture was
kind of bleak in year one after high
school, year two, year three, year four.
Fast forward to now, he's now a junior
in college on a hard major. How did he
do that? It started with him
understanding dopamine, him
understanding that it had him and going
full cold turkey.
>> Did you talk to him?
>> I did. Yeah, I did. And it was actually
the conversation with Anna LMK from
Stanford who really deserves the credit,
you know, author of Dopamine Nation.
>> All right. What's the magic sequence of
words? Like what was it?
>> It was look, it makes every bit of sense
why you feel like you have to do this,
but it's controlling you and you the
only way to regain control, like to get
the control panel back is to take a week
off. And he was just like, there's no
way. He was like, a week off? And so he
self-imposed a day. It was a classic one
day at a time kind of thing where he
could call me. He could call, you know,
this has now happened in several
instances with cannabis. Another
discussion. I'm not anti-cannabis for
everybody, but I know some people that
have really succumbed to like using
cannabis, dropping out of college,
losing their relationship, being online
all day, boom, losing their job also.
This is a real world scenario. Not I'm
not making this up. And then by going
full abstinence and then focusing on a
12step program in the case of the
cannabis um situation or in the other
case just doing a one day at a time
you're calling
>> stick with homeboy that he's watching
too much
>> he's texting me at the end of the day I
managed to get to the end of the day.
>> What was he doing during the day? He's
not just staring at a wall.
>> No, I mean I told him to get outside and
take a bike ride, take a walk, do
anything but at first it's just anything
but behavior. You're just
>> And when did that become drive? Because
so I've always uh I can't remember when,
but I had a parent ask me like, "Hey, my
kid is really in trouble
>> and I don't know what to do. We've tried
everything." And I was like, "Okay, if I
had one shot and I've I've got to
guarantee results." I was like, "Oh,
this is easy. It like you're never going
to do it, but I'll give you the answer
and it will work not 80% of the time or
90%. This will work 100% of the time. uh
get five people that he respects, kidnap
him, take him out onto a deserted
island, and those guys are going to do
things that he has to join them in doing
to earn their respect. And if he
respects them before they kidnap him and
take him out, he will conform to the
group.
>> And it's like all of this stuff to me,
and I get it. I this is one of the thing
that drives people crazy about me but
this like really seems if you understand
how the brain works if you accept men
and women are different. If you accept
we are not blank slates. If you go ah
men are goal oriented. Men want to be a
part of the pack. Men want to do the
things that are going to earn their
respect the respect of the group. Doing
hard things is I mean I wouldn't have
had the words to say that testosterone
makes effort feel good but it's like
effort feels good.
Sorry to interrupt. When there's
feedback when you accomplish something,
you know, wake up in the morning,
control something you can control. If
it's getting sunlight, but then do, you
know, get your sunlight, but then
hydrate, get, but do something that's
under your control and where you can
have an outcome that you know is a
positive investment of your energy, of
your dopamine that has a positive
feedback on the testosterone and
dopamine system. And lo and behold, you
have more energy
>> as opposed to spending it out. No, I
absolutely agree with your um kidnap and
take to uh um to a desert island, you
know, because it captures all the
elements of of how the the male brain
works and wants to participate and wants
to achieve things. I absolutely agree. I
think that, you know, we are a social
species and even though men, okay, maybe
we're not relational in the case like
you leave, you know, five average males
in a in a room, they're not going to
play, you know, they're not going to
play house and like, you know, they're
going to play they're going to play like
um kick you in the face. Yeah. they're
going to beat each other up or like you
know like wrestling someone's going to
be jumping off the top and like you know
like suplexing people like that's males
right you know and and sure there are
exceptions to that there are less
physical males etc but at some point
there has to be that effort dopamine
reward action loop and the the thing is
that effort dopamine reward action loop
is in the only fans interaction it's in
all sorts of interactions the problem is
when you're deep in that you know in
that trench it's impossible to see that
you're not going anywhere. You're
treadmilling. You're not going anywhere.
In most cases, you're spiraling down.
And it's it's just very hard to see
because that dopamine and and the state
of arousal that it creates puts you into
a warped world where your time binning
starts getting very fine. You're just
focused on the next increment, the next
increment, the next increment. And it's
like we talk about getting out and
getting perspective. Very hard to do.
Very hard to do. And I do think you're
right. I think we need to yank ourselves
out or have someone yank us out of that
scenario. In this case, we set something
up where he had to call me every single
day or text me every single day.
Although, I realized calling was more
important because texting people are
much more willing to kind of like, oh,
yeah, did it, but they actually didn't.
Now, it took some time. I'm not going to
say there weren't some relapses, but
over time, he got to see the difference
between how he felt when he relapsed
versus how he had felt right before.
Sure, he went through the same shame
cycle like I'm weak and then back on the
horse and kept going.
>> You know, it's um it's an incredible
thing. Now, I have to say he's not my
kid, but it's incredible. I've known
since he was a little one to see him
like in, you know, in his junior year of
college, he's in a relationship, like he
takes care of himself, he ex like he's
going to be, if he stays on track, a
fully functional male in society, but it
was looking super bleak. And the parents
have all the makings of like a
reasonably educated, reasonably happy
home, you know, no major trauma, none of
that. It was just it was his SRY gene
susceptibility to things that were
happening at that time and he almost
became one of the failure to launches.
>> Yeah, this is uh this is one of those
things just trying to get people to
understand that we are not blank slates
is like part of my mission. So, uh, for
people that join me on the lives,
they'll have heard this like a gazillion
times. But I really feel like I'm in a
battle for the soul of America right
now. And really getting people to
understand that, uh, one, just you're
having a biological experience. So, you
have got to come to understand your
biology. Stop judging it. Stop trying to
like cram everybody into an overly
modern box. The fascinating thing is I'm
probably the most optimistic about
what's on the other side of this weird
space that we're in where we metabolize
the technological revolution much like
the industrial revolution literally
changed the world in ways we never could
have predicted and going through that
I'm sure was extremely tumultuous and it
was just whenever you're going through
that kind of upheaval of structure there
going to be people that fall down that
get crushed by the rubble you obviously
metaphorically, but then you get to the
other side, but you're you don't get to
the other side by accident. You either
just burn through the transitionary
people and they have a hard time of it,
life sucks, whatever, but they die. You
have some big war and then you're on the
other side of it and then we're just
forced to adapt. Or if you can orient
yourself to what's actually going on,
then you can avoid the problems. But you
have to understand your biology. You
have to know what the potential dangers
are. And so when I look at Only Fans,
going from just complete confusion to,
oh, okay, I get what this is now, and
now I see it as something that's even
more dangerous than I thought it was
before in terms of its ability to suck
you in when you you have to take it in
the grander context of uh we've been
telling boys that males are toxic. Uh
men don't necessarily understand
hypergamy and like sexual market value
and you have to understand that. and
then making it such that um men are
being like you're always in danger of
being put on blast on social media for a
bad text or DM or whatever. And so now
you've got like the the fear centers
going crazy. And up right there comes
this real easy serve up. And so the
things that we have to talk about, the
things we have to draw circles around
and say, "Okay, this is why this is a
problem. You've got to watch out for
that. You're going to need a substitute
for that." So like what is that thing
that you're going to be doing? Um, but
to create the new thing for them to be
doing, you you cannot demonize the
things that they're naturally drawn
towards. And I think that's where we run
into trouble.
>> Yeah. I think uh amen to that. I mean, I
I think that explaining to men that
what's been hijacked reflects the best
part about their biology, their deepest
like circuits of effectiveness, but
they've been hijacked and they're being
misused to someone else's gain. I think
that's an important part of the
messaging to get people out of that
loop. I think it's the first step. Not
just like, oh, you know, it got me, you
know, but the idea that because I do
think that another aspect of of maleness
is this idea like nobody wants to be
controlled, right? That you're the
you're the agent of control. And, you
know, it's James Hollis, the great
psychoanalyst, who, you know, he wrote
he has this incredible lecture on online
called Creating a Life. I invite him on
my podcast. He's 84 years old. And I'm
like, what's the what's the key? You
know, he's he's so aware of what a
really good life looks like for men and
for women. and he's done written a lot
on men's trauma. He wrote a book called
Under Saturn Shadow, which is a really
powerful book specifically about men's
trauma. This is years ago before
everything was therapized, you know.
>> Why Saturn? What's Saturn?
>> Oh, I forget the the notion of of um
this has to do with some um uh mythical
text. He's a very he's much more
scholarly about those things than me.
So, for forgive me um the for not for
not knowing, but he he said, "Look, the
solution to this is actually quite
simple but quite hard." this being
modern life is like messing up
>> like directing your life being the agent
of control in your life especially if
you're male but also if you're female
but since we're talking about men which
is you have to yes develop a sense of I
think he calls it you know suit up show
up and you know and work like you just
have to have that like okay it's time to
work it's just like time like you did
with with your business and you continue
to do or jo you just got to show up you
know suit up show up and get to work you
have to develop that you also have to
have a place where you reflect and
decide where you're going to direct your
energies. And that has to come first and
then you just keep looping the two. And
he talks about it not as a form of
meditation, but literally a stopping for
even just a few minutes a day. And it
sounds so simple, but it's hard to do
where you literally just close your eyes
and you think like, is my energy being
directed in the in the areas and
directions that make sense for me? Am I
building my life? and you set some
intentionality because we hear all the
thing you know between stimulus and
response is you know this this buffer
very hard when you're in the moment and
you know these algorithms are so damn
good at looping us in that we can either
because really they do one of two
things. They either allow us to numb out
and pass time or they give us just
enough arousal kind of rage bait and
engagement or like intrigue like sexual
intrigue or like maybe you're looking at
um you know like cute pup maybe like
cute puppies. it's not sexual at all or
maybe it's rage bait or maybe it's a
fight where someone gets punched in the
face. You know, open up X, you can see
all of these things. It will find the
hook. So, the idea is that you you set
your, for lack of a better word, your
intention about and you understand that
you have this energy that you were born
with that's replenishable. It's again
all hearkens back to dopamine. It's, you
know, you can you can deplete it, but
it's replenishable. And you start
thinking, how am I investing that? And
then the the key thing is to at some
point relatively early in the day, you
have to invest in something that has a a
logical and real payoff for the for the
expansion and growth of your life. And
even even if you write a paragraph, even
if you you know um as long as you are
investing in your future in some way,
it's the difference between a dollar
spent and a dollar invested or a dollar
wasted and a dollar invested.
>> And I think that Hollis really nails it
with that. It starts with this like
recognition and then subtle subtle
things that control your behavior. And
sometimes people have to divide their
day into thirds. He tells me in order to
be able these aren't even just addicts
but be able to like okay the first third
of my day is going to be completely
under my control. I think that in said
differently if you explain to men that
they can control themselves as opposed
to other things controlling them,
they're going to start to look at it as
a fight. And if you start winning that
fight, I deal with this every day. I'm
like, I'm going to just get on my phone.
And I'm like, I'll just look for a
second. I'm like I'm like, man, okay,
I'm going to look. And then I see I saw
something the other day and I was like,
I don't want to see that. So, I scrolled
to the next thing. It was the opposite.
And I was like, damn it. And I like took
the thing. I I put it down on his face.
I'm like, man, it almost got me. And
I'll tell you, the feeling of
satisfaction when you're like, nope.
Like, and then you actually go do
something useful. And you can bet I
picked that thing up three more times
before I actually dropped into like a
good groove on something.
>> The the feeling that one gets is so
empowering. And it's not just quote
unquote empowering, it's literally a
surge in your own sense of agency and
you've increased your your dopamine
stores. Your arousal state continues to
go up as opposed to just, oh, two hours
went by and you're just thinking, I
should do this, I should do that.
>> I think that only works though if you
aim at something that is in line I'll
say with your biology. I think I always
think of things through the lens of
evolution. That's what I was saying
about Bonnie Blue. She's just not she's
not in line with what evolution wants
you to do. And so, you're going to have
a profound sense of disease. can't
remember if it was her, but I think it
was that after her first like 100 guys
in 24 hours or whatever, she was crying.
She and she was like surprised that
she's crying about like, whoa, like I
didn't expect to feel like this. Like,
yeah, like that is not what evolution
wants you to do. Like, you have so much
wiring.
>> Yeah. It runs countercurrent to
everything we know about wiring of the
female brain. Everything. Which is not
to say that I'm judging promiscuity, but
hers represents an extreme of
performative promiscuity that Yeah, I
agree. I mean it it I mean we could
think of another hundred other parallel
examples of of self- abuse that
>> I don't even think of it as self- abuse.
It's just I if you're out of alignment
with what the deeply embedded in your
brain algorithms want you to do. It only
has two levers, pleasure and pain from
an evolutionary perspective. So it's
going to make it feel bad. It's just
trying to make it feel bad so you stop
doing it. Now I don't need anybody to
think she's a bad person. I don't think
she's a bad person. I feel bad anytime I
have to go through something where I'm
like, "Whoops. I'm clearly out of
alignment with what nature wants from
me. Or if somebody else does something
that's out of alignment with what nature
wants from them, it's like, yeah, it's
going to suck. Like, you've got to like
find that thing.
>> And I bring that up in this context. So,
um, guys are only going to be able to
get out of this rut if they figure out
to aim at something with, I'll call it,
high utility, a thing that is in
alignment with what men are hardwired to
do that culture is going to celebrate so
that as they do it, they get some sort
of positive feedback from the world
around them. So what would you like
obviously it's not going to be
neuroscience but like what would you
have men aim at as a category of thing
so that then they can structure their
lives in such a way that putting the
phone down makes sense because I'm
actually aiming at this thing.
>> I thought you were going to tell me that
you're developing an online platform
that is incredibly addictive that uh
allows men to uh build their financial
portfolio or creative portfolio.
>> That's interesting. We'll get into game
development if we have time. Well, I'll
explain why I still because I'm utterly
fascinated by that stuff. But no, I just
want to know like what should guys aim
at?
>> Well, I will I'm borrowing a lot today,
but I will borrow um from Ryan Holiday
and say that if you don't know what you
want to do with your life, you should
probably go to college.
>> Okay? because you know his idea is you
know if you
>> even if you're 35
>> um you should probably get involved in
some uh education or vocation that you
broad
>> spectrum broad is that the idea
>> yeah I mean if you can afford to do that
I mean certainly work of any kind is of
value and I'm I'm not saying that to be
politically correct I mean author of
dopamun nation um when I asked her a
similar question uh she said the key is
like for young people who are quote
unquote looking for their passion like
she's she thinks that's a a crazy idea
it's never going to She thinks what you
should do is look around you and find
something. I know this sounds crazy, but
it makes perfect sense in the context of
the biology. Find something that needs
fixing or doing. Maybe it's mow the
lawn. Maybe it's uh assemble the fish
tank that's been, you know, piled up in
the corner. Do something that has a
beginning, a middle, and end where you
can feel like you accomplish something
because it feeds back on the circuitry
that you can accomplish things.
>> Is Hannah the one that work has she done
work in video games?
>> Uh on video games. She was um in that
movie that was about I think it was
called the social um the social was it
dilemma? social dilemma.
>> I've had her on the show, but you also I
man I could be conflating things, but
there's another woman that I've had on
the show that worked in game
development.
>> Okay.
>> And that's somebody different.
>> This sounds so familiar.
>> Yeah. Finally,
>> middle and sense of accomplishment. Cuz
as a game dev, I will just tell you
right now, and technically I'm not a
game dev. I always say that, but
hopefully people know what I mean. Uh
that is you're literally going, "How's
the brainwired? How do I leverage that
to make this engaging, enjoyable?" like
you're obsessing over when do we get
secrete when do we get them to secrete
dopamine so that they'll keep they want
to keep pushing I mean it's it is uh
it's all very conscious stuff the game
developers are doing
>> um so
>> how do we cuz 100%
>> yeah do something they could do that
something
>> that
>> other people are going to look at and be
like that's what you're pointing
yourself at like that is lunacy it'll
still have the same sense of
accomplishment Mhm.
>> We'll be back to the show momentarily,
but let's talk about why founders burn
out before they ever succeed. You
started a business to be great at one
thing. Instead, you became mediocre at
everything. Designer, copywriter,
photographer, marketer, inventory
manager, customer service rep. You're
not an entrepreneur. You are a one-man
circus. Successful founders focus on
what they're great at and let experts
handle the rest. And now Shopify gives
you access to world-class expertise
without needing to hire a team. Their AI
writes compelling product descriptions
and headlines. Their templates create
beautiful stores that convert. And their
tools handle inventory management,
international shipping and returns
automatically. Shopify powers 10% of all
e-commerce in the US. From household
names like Mattel and Gym Shark to
brands just getting started. Stop
wearing every hat and start building
your empire. Sign up for your $1 per
month trial and start selling today at
shopify.com/impact.
Now, let's get back to the show. Are is
mowing the lawn better than running a
4K?
>> Yeah. So, it's all important and they
can all be done because we're talking
about things that are sort of beginning,
middle, end, done. So, you know, this
whole notion of wake up in the morning
and make your bed, right? Um like
Jordan, right? And uh clean your room,
right? or M Mcrist I think was the first
make your bed first thing in the morning
he's a general right
>> yeah yeah a former Navy Seal I think
this was at a commencement for
University of Texas Austin the whole
idea there you know he framed it as you
know you get back at the end of the day
and even if your day went terribly at
least your bed is made okay I think uh
with all due respect I think the
practice itself is far more valuable
than that from the perspective of you
were able to take something was
disorganized and organize it and then
move forward so it's not you make your
bed all day 50 times it's that you have
the ability to act on your environment
and complete something. Then you pivot
and you look for the next thing that
needs to be done. Now, you could spend
all day doing chores. People do this
when they're procrastinating, right?
They started doing all sorts of things
they haven't intended to in the previous
days and weeks. But the idea is that if
you can organize your immediate physical
environment, then there is that quote
unquote sense of accomplishment, but
it's more a sense of that you have an
ability to accomplish things, right? So
it it is hard to imagine someone who's,
you know, home space is slovenly who's
super effective in the outside world.
Hard to imagine. I'm sure it exists, but
they probably have maids, right? So
taking control of your environment,
keeping the things that you have in
order, taking good care of the things
that you have, however few, has a a
feedback on you. It's a it's a
self-respect thing. It allows you to
feel like you can control what's in your
environment. And again, the circuitries
that we're talking about relate to
dopamine, motivation, and pursuit. they
are subject to plasticity. And what
you're talking about when you're talking
about only fans is plasticity in the
direction of hijacked plasticity where
you're getting less and less dopamine,
less and less pleasure and you're
investing more and more. It's literally
you're the the the circuit is being
hijacked and it's atrophying in certain
important ways and it's hypertrophying.
It's growing in other ways that are
beneficial to Only Fans and destructive
to you. When you make your bed, it's
probably neutral. Is it destructive to
you? No. No. Is it super beneficial to
you? No. I'm not delusional. Well, I
don't think that making your bed first
thing in the morning or cleaning your
room is going to completely transform
your life, but it's also what you're not
doing during that time, right? It's a
pure behavioral replacement. So, then
you go out and you you run, you get some
sunlight, you hydrate. It's these
things, they start to ratchet on top of
one another. Now, is that going to make
somebody confident enough to go out and
ask a girl out on a date? No. But
probably conf more confident about her,
you know, maybe eventually coming back
to your apartment and seeing the place
and it's not a total disaster. And as we
know she'll be looking to see how you
maintain your your stuff. So I think
that people who learn how to take
control of their immediate external
environment gener this is the essence of
building confidence. I really believe
that you know when we're little kids we
make something with our logo our Legos
or whatever it is and we show our
parents they go good job and then pretty
soon we realize they say a good job to
anything right unless it's like really
exceptional. What the the pivotal moment
I believe in in at least in my childhood
is when I did something I looked at and
I was like that's awesome.
>> Like I used to design fish tanks when I
was a kid and I was pretty bad at it.
Now I'm really good at it. I have a
couple and I'll just say like I'll go
toe-to-toe with anybody on aquarium.
>> Fish tanks.
>> Yeah man. Aquacaping. How big are we
talking?
>> We're talking big fish tanks with coral
and soon and octopus and fish inside of
it.
>> What's that?
>> Could I lay inside of it?
>> Yeah. One of them is that big. Yeah.
Some of them are 300 gallons or more.
And and the idea is the balance between
the between the fish and the aquarium.
If you really want your mind blown, go
and look at Tekashi Amano. He does
what's called aquacaping, which was
these underwater. He had ones that were
as big as this room. Unfortunately, he
died in pneumonia and uh at 60, but he
has a whole museum dedicated to him.
Like, you know, like
>> did you know him?
>> No. I wanted to meet and and and
apprentice with him and he died before I
was able to. But you know, so you know,
am I am I going to become a fish fish
tank designer? No. Like I don't plan to
already you just said I'll
>> as a profession as a profession but like
it's very important to me that I have a
certain thing like I get so much joy and
and and like positive stimulation and
ideas from just sitting in front of that
thing and so for me it's very important
that those spaces in my house are not
just like empty spaces
>> you know and for some people it's
painting and for some people it's
gardening and you know these are more
artistic things right now we're not
talking about like going out and like
conquering markets or like you know yes
I also go the gym and yes, I also run. I
do those things that are more like
traditional male, you know, masculine
things. But just the idea that you can
touch into a feeling of like I did that
>> is this generative drive as it's called
like touching into that where you know
it was a job well done
>> and you're no one's looking right. I
don't care if anyone ever sees my fish
tanks frankly like no one's looking.
They give me energy and they give me
energy cuz I love them
>> and cuz they're it's hard to do a tank
right and it's hard to keep the balance
right in the ecosystem right but it
feels so damn good. Now I'm not saying
everyone should go out and get fish
tanks, right?
>> No, no, but you're you're really on to
something. I want to pitch you an idea.
I want to see if I'm thinking about this
right because um I I am really obsessed
with this. So I think AI is going to
terraform the world in ways that people
do not understand. I think it is going
to be devastating in a thousand ways and
I think it's going to be unbelievably
cool in a billion ways. going to be hard
to get through the ways that it's going
to be tough. But when I think about
that, I start thinking about, okay,
what's going to be the future? I start
thinking from an evolutionary lens. What
does evolution want from us? I'll assume
for now that we're not altering the
structure of the brains, and I'll say,
we're going to keep working the way that
we work.
>> And when I hear you describe that, I
hear the very thing that excites me
about game development because I'm like,
oh, forget aquariums and needing to
actually put glass in your house and all
that. I'll give you the ability to
design an entire ocean.
>> I'll give you the ability to design an
entire universe. And I think that people
are going not only to design them, but
explore them. And so then people start
going, "Well, they're going to poo poo
that and say, okay, but that is just a
video game." It's like when I hear you
say, "I don't care if anybody ever sees
my fish tank." I'm like, "Oh, this is a
gamer." You just there's a certain type
of game that you like. It's like the you
design these farms and stuff like this.
It's it's an actual type of game. It's a
whole genre. And I'm like, "Oh, I get
it." But we there does seem to be some
bridge that society is not comfortable
with us crossing where it becomes
virtual.
>> So an esports athlete, they're
unbelievable. They are so skilled that
the window that they can be the best in
the world is so narrow. By 24, you're
like washed up because your reaction
time is off by like one like thousandth
seconds. I went to a game ring
tournament actually with one of the
kids. I was describing earlier, it was
his birthday years ago, and he said,
well, I was like, what do you want? He
wanted to go to a gaming tournament. It
was here in LA. And it was wild. I mean,
this is going to be familiar to to you
and everyone else. The kids had like
hand warmers.
>> Yeah.
>> And then the audience instead of
clapping, they were like banging
together these like uh styrofoam things.
And it was like a whole thing. And this
this this girl walked in. I think she's
like she's probably like, you know, like
mid20s, like really attractive woman.
And all the dudes were like, "No way."
And they were like fanning out on this
chick and he's like, "She's so hot." And
I was like, "Okay, this is a totally
different world. It's a different
universe.
>> But it but here's the the thing. The the
fish tanks or the video game or the the
virtual version of the fish tank farming
or whatever it is. The real key for me
anyway or at least my understanding of
it is the energy and inspiration and
kind of sense of capability that I get
from that. It's not a closed loop. I
don't sit in front of my fish tank all
day just going like, man, I'm a good
fish tank designer. Like I'm the next
Tekashi Amano. No, none of that. I take
the energy of it and I take it into my
profession. I take it into my creative
pursuits that relate to the podcast or
to writing. And I've got a few other
things that are brewing now. What's
that? It's purely energetic. It's like I
can accomplish things. Like I can build
a really awesome home environment.
>> See? Okay.
>> And I used to do this like now I now I
converted an art gallery into a living
space. Like that's kind of my obsession
right now.
>> I want to study your brain cuz science.
>> But when I lived in a one-bedroom
studio, I did this.
>> Yeah.
>> I had a plant. I had my TV. I would
think I'm not like an interior designer,
but I was like, how can I make this
place like the best study environment?
This was in college and I was like
chair, desk that back then it was like
tape and CD and I had like little
posters and I kept really good care of
everything I had. And that place is
where I built my degree which led to my
masters, my PhD, running a lab, getting
tenure, the podcast sitting here with
you. And so for me back then I had no
idea what a podcast was. It was in the
mid '9s, right? But that room was so
important to me. Like that's my whatever
dojo. That's my canvas. Like what I'm
and I just trusted and I still trust
that if something is closed loop, it's
dangerous.
>> When you say closed loop, what do you
mean?
>> I mean there's no that whatever energy
you get from it is is discarded in the
in the thing. I'm going to get kind of
um
>> But why? So okay, let's talk about Only
Fans.
>> No, no, no. Don't leave yet because I
really want to understand this and I
want to understand if we're saying the
same thing or just wildly different
things. So, I believe that all all of
human existence, there's nothing outside
of what I'm about to say. All of human
existence is us trying to manipulate our
own brain chemistry. Period.
>> No parentheticals, no new chapters.
>> Everything that we do, I think that
evolution has made that just obviously
true because evolution is trying to
compel you to do a thing and it only has
pleasure and pain
>> to to propagate it. I mean, evolution
has an endgame, right? Which is
>> you have kids to have kids.
>> Yeah. Right.
>> Full stop.
>> Right. I mean, we agree.
>> Species want to make more of themselves
and protect their young. Great. Yeah.
>> But like, period. Yeah.
>> Okay. So, I agree with you.
>> I work backwards from that. I'm like,
evolution has a goal and I'm its vessel.
Evolution wants to make sure that I have
kids that survive long enough to have
kids. Everything is just trying to get
me to do that. The thing that it is
using to get me to do to do that is all
the neurochemistry stuff that you
actually understand. And then me,
whether I'm drinking alcohol, doing
drugs, having sex, whatever, I have been
given a set of circuitry, whatever you
chemical processing plant, however you
want to think about it. And I can do
things to yank those levers that make me
feel a certain way. And then all of us
are just yanking those levers. Now, the
thing that you and I are getting on to
is you're saying, "Okay, there's a way
that you can pull those levers where the
energy goes inside and dies." And
there's a way that you can pull those
levers that that energy somehow
>> does a new thing. And that new thing is
what I want you to explain because you
may be able to put your finger because I
like I there are two things I'm going to
be attacked in the future. I'm not super
attacked by it right now because not
enough people know that I believe it,
but over time they're they're really
going to come after me for it. Uh
while I'm I it won't happen to
everybody. Transhumanism is going to be
a thing and I'm totally supportive of
it. How how is that defined? I just
because I I'm not sure I know exactly.
>> We'll merge with machines.
>> Got it. Okay. Okay.
>> We'll alter our biology. It'll be one of
those two things or both.
>> Gene editing. Yep. Robots, nanoobots.
>> Correct.
>> I mean, I think I'm an easy sell on
this, but yeah, 100% that's going to
happen
>> for sure. I mean, it's supportive of it.
That's where I think I'm going to lose
certainly the religious crowd. Uh, and
the second thing is that I really
believe that going out into space is
cool and I'm glad some people are doing
it, but the reason that aliens don't
visit us is any sufficiently advanced
tech uh, society will develop technology
where they collapse inside of virtual
worlds. It it's the only thing that
makes sense because you don't have to
worry about altering your physical body
in terms of dealing with radiation and
stuff like that. It's just so much. You
don't have to bend spaceime. You can
literally just create a virtual world.
So, I want to create virtual worlds. It
It is I am obsessed. It's not what I'm
known for,
>> but it's the thing that I'm obsessed
with.
>> I can tell.
>> But on this, I want to make sure that
I'm not putting people in a box where
their energy dissipates into nothing.
Got it.
>> And I've done a thing now that I that
doesn't make me respect myself. I'm
already rich. I am not doing this for
the money. I'm doing it because I'm
like, "Yo, this is where we're going.
this thing is incredible, but only if
done right. And so now,
>> tell me more about the fish tank and why
the energy like rebounds into something
else so I can make sure one that I
continue to point my life towards things
like that
>> and that as I'm building
>> that I'm because I feel what you're
talking about, but I wouldn't be able to
articulate it. Well, first of all, you
and I are completely aligned on this
evolutionary argument that our brain
circuitries and bodily chemistries are
organized around evolution and that the
innate even if unconscious or conscious
awareness of that we're trying to
propagate our species and just go
forward. There are a lot of traps, as
I'll call them, these things that h can
hijack us like opium will hijack the
pleasure centers and ruin your life.
>> You know, we've seen that. Um, it's all
about what it does and what it no longer
makes you want to do. Okay? It makes
people on opium, they just don't care to
work. They don't care to do anything,
right? It's just it's just a slippery
slope, as they say. Here's here's why
the fish tanks are more than a hobby and
they're more than a fascination. And
here's why it's different than Only
Fans. Okay. Um,
>> why fish tanks are different than Only
Fans. I mean, there are a lot of reasons
why my my aquariums are different than
Only Vans, especially the way I'm
interacting with them, just to be clear.
But here's the difference, and I'm going
to use an example that might seem a
little bit um crude, but I think it's
the it it captures it best.
Let's be honest, people aren't just
watching Only Fans. They're masturbating
while they watch Only Fans.
>> I hope for their sake, Jesus. Otherwise,
>> that presumably involves some pleasure
or generates some pleasure for them. I
certainly am not of the belief that all
sex
And masturbation is is just about
reproduction,
right? Obviously, masturbation is not is
not the most efficient way to to
reproduce. Okay.
>> Try a different method.
>> Yeah. Exactly. So, but let's just
imagine, and it's not pleasant to
imagine, but I think we can all know the
the general contour of this, so I don't
have to say too much. Someone's watching
Only Fans. A guy's watching Only Fans.
He's paying. He's telling her what he
wants. She's giving it to him. There's
an exchange of money. There's an
exchange of time. Okay. There's a he's
spending his dopamine and he's literally
spending it and then masturbation,
right? And then what happens after that?
Is he more is the the net increase in
dopamine, testosterone um going to cause
him to go out and look for a real date?
>> No. Definitely not.
>> No. Is he uh has he invested his uh
biological resources in DNA, in his
sperm, in reproduction and and evolution
of our species? No. Is he a contributing
member of society? Well, to her bank
account. Yeah.
>> And to only GDP, right? It's not It's
not like taking an Uber where like Uber
takes a slice, but you actually go
someplace in the car. He stayed right
there.
>> He actually spent out his ev his his,
you know, god-given, nature- given,
evolutionary given, whatever your your
your beliefs are um gifts there. And
guess where it went? Nowhere. It's a
it's a net negative. Okay. Now, let's
talk about my fish tanks. Okay. Now, do
you think that evolution has some sort
of backdoor punishment for that? It
depends on the the the extent to which
society will pick up the slack because
we know that throughout societies there
have been people who have been, you
know, opiated, who've um who uh can't
work that we support. Sometimes we
support those people for good reason.
They're not able to support. They're out
on disability from a workplace injury.
Like, you know, societies have have
mechanisms set up. But if you look at
thriving societies, right? I mean a
certain threshold number of males and
females getting out there and doing work
and educating young and like you know
and here it's re it really does take a
village. It takes men and women and and
it really needs to be um shift workers
which is terrible for your health but we
need those people right. So we need we
need contributing members of society.
The more things that we offer for people
to opt out and they don't even realize
that they're opting out of the
evolutionary game, but being under the
illusion that they're somehow doing the
right thing and and they sort of know
they're not, but they're receiving all
the pleasure that evolution has
installed into these circuits, but
they're not doing anything. They're not
actually contributing. Forget quote
unquote contributing to society. That's
really important. They're not even
contributing to their own life in a
meaningful way. Sooner or later, they
have to make the money that they're
going to,
>> you know, contribute to Only Fans. I
doubt anyone wants to see that guy on
Only Fans. I mean, there presumably are
people, but I don't think that's the
endgame. So, what I mean when I say like
the fish tanks are are like the the
inverse of all that is, you know, I I
have the the tank which gen helps me,
you know, feel like I can do something.
It's somewhat mindless. I might listen
to a book or a podcast while I'm doing
it. I might enjoy it for pleasure, but
then but I get energy from there that I
take elsewhere. It's not like I'm like,
oh, you know, I'm going to start like,
you know, podcasting about fish,
although here I am, but it's not my
goal. I'm not going to start like an
aquacaping podcast. They're amazing
aquacapers. That's not my goal. The idea
is it gives me energy.
>> And this is what, you know, my good
friend, and I'm sure you know, like um I
always seem to mention them and, you
know, forgive me for name dropping, but
Rick Rubin really understands about the
creative process that he talked about in
the creative act. There's another book
by a woman by by the name of Twilight
Tharp who's in her 80s who's an
absolutely incredible choreographer and
she talks about how her process of going
to the gym in the morning for two hours
she was a ballerina every single
morning. The process of going to
museums, the process of having a
regimen, all of that is designed to give
her the kind of raw materials in her
unconscious that then she can put into
being and she is one of the greatest
choreographers of all time. Anyone that
pays attention to the dance world, which
isn't my world, but they they will
they'll know her name. And so the idea
is what are the things that you are
doing that you get energy from that you
can transmute into useful work, being a
better husband, being a better son,
being a contributing member of society.
Maybe it's maybe it is the oldfashioned
version of like you go check on the
neighbor and you like give them some
cookies or something like that and they
like it and you feel like you've done
something useful and you have. The
problem is the things that where you
think you've done something useful and
you haven't and you actually have moved
back two steps. You didn't not just go
anywhere. You're actually drifting down
because your some of your peers are
moving forward.
>> I I want to just briefly mention that
there is a a parallel argument for
against the evolutionary theory that is
not the one that people typically think
of and this is the scariest one of all.
I just want to share it with you because
I think it's a
>> um it's a fun one and it's scary as [ __ ]
>> which is you now know about the gut
microbiome. We have trillions of little
microacteria living in our gut. They
help us manufacture serotonin. They're
talking to our brain. They're informing
about our body chemistry. They're
controlling our immune system. Super
important system involved in everything
from mental health to physical health,
inflammation. And there's an argument
that's been made by the people that
study the microbiome that we in our
infinite desire to think that we know
everything have come up with this thing
that we call evolutionary theory. But
actually, we are just vehicles for
microbiota. I came here today. I shook
your hand. I sat in one of your chairs.
Elon wants to go to Mars. And guess
what? The people that are proponents of
this theory argue that, you know, it's
kind of cool. Humans think that they're
going to Mars to colonize Mars, which I
believe that they do, but that the
microbiota just really wanted to get
there.
>> So there's this So they like create
changes in our neurochemistry, which
create changes in our thinking. This a
kind of fun theory that lead us to think
that we're leading these meaningful
lives and like propagating our species,
but really we've already been hijacked
from the inside.
>> That's wild. And there's no sense that
there's intention around it like that
they're sitting there going oh like
let's get some guys to play video games
and interact with only fans and like no
like you know like let's adjust the
numbers of people by lowering
reproductive rates like there isn't that
idea that they have that kind of
consciousness but anyone who's studied
evolutionary theory knows that evolution
doesn't sit back in a chair and think
about it. This is just these it's the
statistics of outcomes that drive this.
That's exactly exactly so I offer that
as as kind of a fun and scary example.
That's the one that keeps me up late at
night where I go like, "Oh [ __ ] what if
I'm just a microbiota vehicle because it
all and you can't really destroy this
theory. There's like no hole that you
can poke in it that dissolves it
completely." Um, it's scary as hell.
>> They better stop the AI from coming on
board because I don't think the AI is
going to need a microbiome. So
>> So that might be the one caches they
they done messed up.
>> Couldn't resist offering that one. It's
not the theory I subscribe to.
>> No, I love it. And look,
>> but it's counter creation. It's like the
opposite of like a of a master plan,
right? It's this idea that we think that
we're so clever and we're doing all this
stuff and we're just like meat vehicles
>> that think we think in in important ways
for the microbiota. Super scary. I hope
that's not true. Um but I mean
>> there's certainly an element. Did you
read Sepolski's book Determined?
>> No.
>> Oh my god.
>> I spoke to him about it. Um because but
basically he he told me to my face
there's no free will. Basically that's
the that's the idea.
>> Oh bro, if he literally leaves no stone
unturned just when you think I got you.
Nope. He's like yeah there's a chapter
on that. Trust me by the end of it
you're going to be like oh yeah we we
are automata.
>> Yeah. He show you literally just have to
let go of that it matters. And I'm like
look I believe we really are automata
and that it just doesn't matter. And
>> dude, if you read the book, you're going
to be like, there's no wiggle room.
There's nothing left. There's And to be
honest, even before I read the book, I
believe we were automat because I can
manipulate your brain so completely to
make you uh I mean, you know, the
Phineas Gage story like you alter the
structures of the brain, the person will
be forever different. Like I don't I
don't even understand people that uh
think that we could be anything other
than TomTom. We are limited by our
biology.
>> Oh yeah. And so it's like if you don't
think we are, then go to somebody who's
profoundly [ __ ] and tell them to
like um solve for physics. They're they
are not going to be able to. It is not
physically possible for them. The
structures of their brain are such
that's just not within the realm of
possibility. And so it's like, okay,
well, if I'm limited by my biology, then
I am my biology. If I am my biology,
where exactly is free will sitting? So
anyway, I'll never be able to do the job
that he does in that book. It is so
detailed all the way down to anybody
right now at home that's thinking well
Tom's ignoring quantum or he no he has a
chapter on the ridiculousness of
thinking that that's the same as free
will you know are you familiar there are
these really interesting studies by a
guy named Robert Heath very
controversial neurosurgeon back in the I
think it was the 70s and 80s basically
he ran studies in humans where he
stimulated different brain areas during
neurosurgery
>> and um what you know he had this one
experiment very few subjects but his
human experiment is hard experiment so
there's still value in what he found
which was people uh get different brain
areas stimulated and then different
sensations come about and they get to
sort of report what they liked the most
or the least which brain area and which
sensation it was associated with. So you
stimulate the brain area associated with
sexual pleasure and they really like
that with laughter they really like that
with drunkenness some like that some
don't and on and on. The brain area that
they like and will work to stimulate
self- stimulate more than any other
brain area. This is gonna blow your mind
is an area of the phalamus called the
the medial midline. It's a m midline
thalus little structure. It doesn't
really matter what the structure is
called. And the subjective experience
was one of mild frustration and anger.
>> Humans are hilarious.
>> And you wonder why everyone gets on X
and it's just like good morning. Let's
fight.
>> Yeah. I I've talked about this before
because I have a very low anger response
and my wife has a very like fast one.
>> And so when I click over into it, I'm
like, "Oh, this is it feels really
good." There's so much certainty in
anger. I am right. They are wrong. And
that sense of I know exactly how the
world should be and uh I know exactly
now how to move forward and how to
react.
>> There's like clarifies. Yes. Sorry, I
didn't mean to speak over you. We said
the same word at the same time. that we
do uh in stereo that it seems like it
clarifies so much of our understanding
and maybe maybe or our experience maybe
that's what the whole thing about
organizing your room aka Jordan Peterson
or make your bed mcrystal or these
things of running you know the number of
people that I know who were addicts who
got sober by just running a lot
>> is pretty spectacular and stay sober
>> are they just clicking over the
obsessive nature and giving it something
else
>> probably it's linear it's forward it's
quantifiable you know has a lot of the
elements elements of of kind of great
replacement behavior. I mean, it can be
taken to the extreme, but I think, you
know, like Rich Rolls example, right?
Um, you know, I'm not saying I don't
think Gogggins is an addict, but I mean,
the guy just keeps running. Uh, Cameron
Haynes, right? Just, you know, beast,
right? Just runs and runs and runs. You
know, was able to drop alcohol, never go
back. You know, running for sake of
hunting, for sake of family and
providing, you know, these things tend
to ratchet into one another in ways that
we feel really functional. And people
like to point fingers and say, "Well,
that's all excessive." You know, what
would you rather have people doing?
Yeah,
>> just there on only Only Fans or like you
know I I think we're getting back to a
place where um some of the kind of core
stereotypical circuitries and drives in
in males I mean these exist in females
too but in males are really being
celebrated again or encouraged again
because we need functioning members of
society
>> for sure. I'm curious how you how you
see AI playing into I'm not an expert in
AI but like for somebody for instance
who um
>> I don't know is interested in creating
things. I mean where aside from just
searching in AI um you know what do you
see coming next that people like you
know people like me and and everybody
out there don't quite see yet in terms
of the next iteration of where we're
going to be like everybody's using this.
It's easy to think like a sci-fi writer
and so that's always the best way I
think to come at it. I like to remind
people right before I make crazy
predictions that the only thing I know
is that nobody sees the future clearly.
It will unfold in a way that is
surprising guaranteed. So everything I'm
about to say I say knowing that I'm
going to be wrong. So the only question
is will I be directionally correct. Um
AI is the ultimate pattern recognition
machine and it it may never become
humanlike but it is going to uh extend
life radically.
>> Uh it is going to be better than us at
everything. Uh it'll be a better
therapist. It'll be a better husband. It
will be a better wife. like it it it
will be so good because remember go back
my core thesis is that all of life full
stop is about manipulating my own brain
chemistry in alignment with what
evolution wants which is for me to have
kids to have kids but as you said it's
easy to hijack that so AI will be so
extraordinarily good at recognizing the
patterns that we operate under it will
know exactly how to make us feel anger
that's what we want to feel clarity
certainty laughter sadness whatever it
the the patterns will be so easy for it
to replicate
Now, this is going to be over time
obviously. So, I think the thing that
maybe surprises everybody, the world
will bifurcate. And so, on the one hand,
you're going to have people like me, you
go full transhuman, you are thrilled to
be able to live out a thousand-year life
inside of virtual worlds where you are
fighting dragons and exploring planets,
and it will legitimately be unbelievably
cool. Then on the other hand, you have
people that will be deeply religious and
will see people that basically become a
different kind of entity as an affront
to God. There will be violence. Um, and
how bad that violence gets will largely
be determined by how economically
disruptive the switch over to what will
inevitably be uh a postcist, post
scarcity world. Because one of the big
things that I think AI is going to do
and just as a reminder to everybody,
this won't play out like this. This is
merely directional.
Uh that it will almost certainly drive
energy costs to zero. And as soon as you
drive energy costs to zero and have a
first like run of robotics, which are
already coming off the line, so this
will happen, uh you have free labor
infinitely. And so that means that the
only thing you're up against is
resources. you could theoretically
eventually run out, but given our birth
rates are to so terrible, I don't think
that's going to be the problem. Uh so
you can have anything you want anytime
you want and it will so profoundly break
our meaning and purpose circuitry which
I think are essentially all that matter
in a human life that that's where I come
back round to oh game development is
going to become a whole thing because
people will need meaning and purpose but
they'll have everything they need. So,
how do you create something that is
sufficiently difficult, very engaging
and enjoyable, uh, but also hard and it
makes you scale and push and all of
that? And video games quite literally
have optimized themselves perfectly to
that endeavor. And the technology is now
getting so good that you can you can
create worlds that get bigger and bigger
and bigger and more nuanced and complex
over the years. There are games now that
are being developed for five or six
years before they launch. And then there
there's one game called No Man's Sky
that's in its 10th year post launch just
getting better. Like there it's crazy.
>> That's wild.
>> So now we have to be careful. So much of
again it's never going to play out like
the way that I just described it. I'm
going to be as surprised as anybody
else. But in terms of like what we can
understand today, what are the
trajectories look like? What are the
things we have to worry about? You have
to worry about meaning and purpose. Uh
you really do have to figure out what
does the world look like on the other
side of capitalism. Capitalism is the
only economic system that works. I'll
fight anybody on that one. Uh and have
started. Uh so it's going to be a
fascinating future, but Rocky wild.
I want to just offer up a a potential
model mostly for your thoughts. Um but
it's one that I believe very strongly
in. Um and there is some evidence to to
support this is true which is um the
time scales over which we are used to
getting reward and linking effort with
reward. I've said before on this podcast
and others, you know, like beware of any
kind of um thing that allows you to
engage with it seamlessly without
effort. Anything that brings you reward
or dopamine without effort that precedes
it, even a little bit, is very
dangerous. It's very likely you're
you're being hijacked. Okay. Um,
>> I think there might be more to that
because every time I hear you say that,
I think of I don't know if you know what
a Soulslike game is.
>> Uh, they're absurdly difficult. And
there was a guy that did a whole video
series about how his dad's first video
game ever was, I think it was Dark
Souls, but anyway, it was a Souls Light
game.
>> And the caption is, uh, my dad's first
game that he ever beat was Dark Souls,
and it changed him. And the video is
pretty cool of this guy like talking
about how many lessons about life that
it taught him and how to get better at
something that you literally have. He
didn't even know how to move in
threedimensional space in a video game
when he started cuz he's in his like 60s
if I remember right. So anyway, just so
I look at that and I go I have a feeling
though people don't mean that. I don't
think you mean games.
>> No. Well, it could be games. I think
that you know
>> could it like or is there something this
whole fish
>> tank thing where it's like your real
thing isn't was it easy? Your real thing
was, did it give you energy that you
carry somewhere else?
>> Right. And it was and it's reasonably
hard, not extremely hard, but it's
reasonably hard to put together
something that's sustainable, that looks
really awesome that like aesthetically
is balanced and the chemistry is right.
It's it's not easy. You can't just like
throw a bunch of fish and plants and
stuff in and and I have help with it
now, but I've I've done these for years.
And so, you have to have an
understanding of how this stuff ratchets
together. I think that from the time
we're very little until the time we die,
whenever that is, you know, we're
developing this this sense of of reward
contingencies. Like, you know, when
you're little, you know, your parents
play peekaboo and you get a reward every
time that the the hands open up, right?
Then it's sort of object permanence.
They know this, you know, these are
developmental milestones. Like, is the
ball can you think the ball is behind
there? Oh, the ball's here. Over time,
you know, what we call education
involves longer and longer um paths of
effort and waiting before you get the
reward. either the surprise, it can be
positive, neutral or negative, you know,
any number of things. In video games,
you know, the sense of varying the
duration of effort before you get a
reward is very important. This is
intermittent reinforcement, right? It's
how it keeps you engaged. I, you know, I
I'll be 50 next month. So, I I did a
PhD, which took a while, took me four
years, did a masters before that. And it
was hard like it involved a lot of hard
work and I enjoyed the work. And I
published some papers and I'm very proud
of those papers, but those papers took a
lot of time. So by the time I finished
graduate school, because my papers took
on average a couple of years from the
time I started the first experiment
until the time the paper was published,
I had sort of a like a a clock in my
mind that like the the meaningful
rewards come about once every two or
three years, not more frequently than
that. Now, of course, there are other
things I enjoy. I'd go snowboarding, do
a good run or, you know, date with my
girlfriend and then enjoy that. So there
are other things too but in terms of
what where I was really putting a ton of
like you know uh mission and purpose
effort and then when was the outcome you
sold a company made a lot of money you
put a you put your heart and soul and a
ton of effort into that company. Yeah.
You see it on Yeah. Absolutely. And and
so that set you up to be able to do hard
things over long periods of time. I
think that we develop a kind of core
understanding based on our experience
and what we engage in of how much effort
we're willing to put in before we get a
reward. Only fans I think is a very
predictable get reward quickly type
scenario where people in what we call in
train they start the circuits start to
match to that expectation so that
reading one page of a of a real book
feels like a real hall reading a whole
chapter of a book feels like a real hall
reading a whole book feels like a
massive expenditure and in the and in
the age of Tik Tok where you're used to
getting these dopamine rewards very
quickly it's it's not just the number
but It's the speed at which we sort of
expect novelty. And so one thing that I
think is very clear that like people of
our generation since we're similar in
age, we're accustomed to putting in
effort over long periods of time without
the expectation that the reward should
have happened yesterday or the day
before.
>> The longer period of time over which you
can extend your your your notion of
where effort and reward are linked kind
of the the time bin I think the more
powerful you are as a human being. I
mean Elon there's a reason why Elon is
the richest person in the world. Yes,
he's brilliant. You may disagree with
his politics. Many people do but let's
let's be honest the guy's willing to
play the long game. I remember cuz I was
going I was a postto at that time when
the Tesla shop opened up in Menlo Park
Palto and then it disappeared. I
remember the early failures of like come
and go. I remember seeing those cars
then they kind of disappeared and then
and then now you see them everywhere and
now they themselves are a controversial
thing but you know and then it's the
rockets. So he's used to doing quote
unquote hard things. But that the part
about hard things that we don't often
think about that we can teach ourselves
is long bouts of effort over long
periods of time leading to some sort of
reward that then maybe we export to
something else like the fish tanks.
Maybe it's a it's a degree. Like what's
the value of a four-year degree? In my
opinion, yes, you learn some things,
>> but the more important thing is that you
expended effort and it took you four
years. So you learn I can work for four
years for something that may or may not
actually be of value in today's day and
age. I still think it's a value. I am a
university professor after all.
>> But you're doing okay for
>> I'm doing okay. I mean not everyone
needs a degree. I think that there you
know there are people who are brilliant
mechanics and engineers and programmers
that did not need to do that. So I don't
think it's the universal path for
everybody. But this I do think anyone
could do this exercise. They could say
how like how long can I wait while
expending effort? How many days? How
many weeks? like how how durable am I in
terms of investing effort for an outcome
that may or may not be certain. It may
it may not be zero. Uh I know it won't
be zero, but it's probably not going to
be a billion dollars, but it could be.
>> Yeah.
>> So, the value that you got from that
intense effort, was that in your 20s?
>> Uh we sold in my 30s.
>> Yeah. So, I think there's something
uniquely valuable about one's 20s and
30s because you're so filled with
energy. you're sort of at the optimal
end of health, not when you're a kid.
>> Especially for guys, you can just feel
there's something different about guys
in their 20s and 30s. Like, it is a very
special window. Gentlemen, if you can
hear my voice right now, do not waste
that time.
>> It's raw energy.
>> It is just, it is a different game.
Like, even now, because I've had
employees stay with me for long periods
of time, young men, that you're watching
them change. And there really is
something about that whole um the 27
club of of musicians that die at 27.
There's something that happens right
around there. 26 27 28 where you start
looking at yourself going did I do it or
not
>> and there's a disillusionment of like
the childishness with which you looked
at the world begins to fade away and you
really start to question yourself and if
you don't have defenses against the fact
that nothing really matters truly
nothing is either good or bad but
thinking makes it so
>> uh you are just trying to yank the
levers in your own brain um but I the
language I use to describe what you're
talking about is nature does have a
backdoor way of making certain things um
unpleasant even though like masturbation
uh I've done my fair share and it's rad
in the moment and then immediately after
it doesn't feel like sex feels different
it feels more profound I don't know what
other words
>> it's generative
>> it that's really
>> good sex is generative you get energy
from it even if you're relaxed but
you've also done something for the
relationship
>> yeah it feels it feels a boolean it's it
it's expansive it's uplifting in a way
that masturbation isn't even though they
both end in orgasm. And so I'm like,
nature clearly recognizes the
difference. Like it it I'm hijacking my
reward system with masturbation.
>> I'm hijacking it with sex, but in a way
where it's like, ah, yes, this is what I
wanted you to do. So, I'm going to give
you that like extra long-term slow
release sense of everything is okay. Not
even okay, everything is good. You're
moving in the right direction.
>> And it reinforces pair bonding, right?
Right? I mean, it brings you closer to
the relationship
>> that feels good. That's what I'm saying.
There's like that slow rel because pair
bonding nature could have said, "I don't
give a fuck." And so like you you get
nothing from that.
>> But it doesn't. It's like this is rad. I
want you to do this.
>> Yeah. You've done something useful,
>> right?
>> You've done something useful as opposed
to there's useful, there's not useful,
and then there's net negative. And I
think what's missed in these activities
where people are where their dopamine
systems are hijacked is they don't see
that they're that they're slowly
slipping underwater. Now, I'm not I'm
not a you know, I'm not for here for
total moral judgment, right? Like, you
know, moral judgment. I I don't think
you're putting that across. And
>> I hope not. I hope not.
>> If I can get you to buy into this, all
I'm trying to map for people is there
are evolutionarily placed algorithms in
your brain. If you do things that it
wants, you will get this slow release
feel good. It's what I call fulfillment.
If you do things that are fulfilling,
and ironically or not, hard work is a
part of what I consider to be nature's
recipe for fulfillment. If you don't
work hard, it won't work. You'll never
get fulfillment. Nature needed to make
sure you were willing to work hard
because life was hard for millennia.
>> Yeah. Even the ch not even the children
are very wealthy people who don't have
to work hard for their wealth. These are
not happy people.
>> Thousand%.
>> The ones that learn the family trade and
do that, they they can be happy people.
But, you know, I've known a fair number
of them. They I mean you can dissolve a
human by giving them too many resources
without requiring effort.
>> You know and there's something in that I
agree I think we're totally aligned in
this you know um mid to late 20s and 30s
that if there were a biological clock in
men it would be th those years not
because of lack of reproductive
potential but lack of generative drive
potential because there's a feedback
loop on it. Like I'm approaching 50 and
I'm I'm not saying this you know as as a
boast. put a lot of work into the
working out and the sunlight and the
thing and the researching and I work a
ton. Probably not as much as you, Tom,
but a ton and and and always have and I
feel better now than I did in my 30s.
Probably because I take better care.
Now, am I more prone to injury?
Probably. And these kinds of things, but
I'm stronger now. My endurance is
better. My my like my thought my
thinking process is sharper.
>> And so, I don't subscribe to this idea
that it's a down, you know, downhill
slope, provided you put the work in
early. Now, if somebody's in their mid
to late 40s and they're hearing this, I
still think you can cap you can catch
some of the wave, but I think it's
harder. I really do. And I think that
you can do it, but it's very important
that you understand that you better have
something where you are investing over
long periods of time. Now, people will
with families will immediately say that
thing is called kids. Well, and then I
say, well, yes, applause to you because
you are fulfilling your evolutionary
obligation.
>> So happy with you or request
evolutionary request to do this. So,
they're very happy with you. So I'm not
saying that this has to come just from
profession. This is but you know the
things are related because families
require resources and and so on and so
forth. So
>> I always tell people you if you're not
going to have kids, you better have a
damn good reason. And I don't have kids,
but I'm hyper aware that I have to
account for that because it's what
nature wants me to do. And so if I'm not
going to do it, then I better find what
the thing is that's going to give me
meaning and purpose and all of that.
>> Yeah. No, I think we're totally aligned
on this. I mean I think I think we are
it in contrast to the conversation we
had a few years ago when we sat down
here. I think we are now in a place
where everyone is realizing
that social media wonderful but has
these real traps in it. First we heard
about the traps for mostly adolescent
girls Jonathan hates work and and so
forth. Um now we're hearing about the
the plight of of boys and men. You know,
I mean, the New York Times just ran this
thing about what boys and men need as
opposed to what's wrong with them. They
talked a little bit about what's wrong
with them, but now they're they're
entering the discussion about what they
need, right? And, you know, how are we
going to get functioning members of
society that are men to catch up? Well,
I think that it's some, you know, the
process of learning like long-term
investment. And it's funny because
earlier I was asking you like, what are
your thoughts on crypto and investing?
This is an area I'm really, you know,
wise to. It's kind of the same thing,
right? You you hear this from Warren
Buffett, right? you know that you've got
to play the long game like especially
perhaps especially with crypto right you
know that thinking you can just get in
and make make a few bucks you could
probably do that you could flip but it's
very hard to predict it's very volatile
>> 5% of the wallets make 95% of the money
good luck
>> is that right
>> yeah yeah yeah like if you don't know
how to invest if you are not doing it
around the clock if you do not have a
proven track record then just be in the
market for a very long time
>> like be broad assume you know nothing
like and just play a very long and I'm
talking like a 25-y year game. Don't
don't try to make your money off of some
crazy shitcoin like that. This one
breaks my heart. Economically, we have
done the world a lot of dirt and we are
forcing them to gamble with assets. Long
story that my audience will be very
familiar with. But um yeah, it's play
play the long game or your toast. Do you
think that the crypto market and world
is um starting to resemble some of the
only fans like contour of kind of like
the allure like come hither, you know?
>> No. I think what it is is uh it it is
hijacking the similar like okay I know
how especially the male brain works.
You're trying to get access to females.
Females respond to resources. So, hey,
you don't understand why the financial
system's broken, but you can feel
something's wrong. And so, now you just
want to get rich as fast as you can
because everything's out of reach. Come
to this thing. And it's hijacking the
gambling circuits. So, I'm sure like so
much of them, you've talked about this.
I literally learned this from you, but
you nature doesn't reinvent the
circuitry. It's just recycling it. So, I
suppose in that way it is similar to
Only Fans, but it's
>> what it attracts is gamblers. I learned
this the hard way. So crypto is all
about gambling and it's an asset class.
So if you know how to do it well, I
think Bitcoin is real in terms of it
will function more like a normal asset
like either an equity or gold. We'll see
how it plays out in the long run. But it
works as you can think of it like gold,
you can think of it like an equity.
Either way, it's going up in value, but
don't try to day trade is basically my
punch line there. Um, but the the
get-richqu side of crypto is also very
real and whatever um, gambling speaks
to, it speaks to that. I have a friend,
his name is Ryan Suave, and he's an
expert in the addiction treatment world
who's trauma treatment as well. And he's
worked with a lot of different types of
addicts. And he told me once uh that the
hardest addiction to break is gambling
addiction
>> because uh in his words uh the next one
really could change it all. But then he
told me something. I just want your
reflections on it because I can't wrap
my mind around this. He said, "The crazy
thing is after gambling addicts have
been at it for a long while and they've
gone through their cycles of destruction
and often replenishment again and then
destruction, they start getting they say
they start getting addicted to losing,
which I cannot understand except from
the perspective of perhaps it's an
opportunity to win again." But
>> is it cutting? I mean, that's about the
only thing.
>> Yeah. I mean, maybe they're
self-loathing and to start out with or
maybe there's some sort of weird
inversion of the of the pain pleasure
relationship with dopamine. We know that
that pain taps into the dopamine
pathway.
>> Um maybe they're so
>> hardressed of pain or actual pain.
>> Yeah. Uh pain
>> actual pain. I mean so maybe it's that
their dopamine is so depleted from kind
of winning losing winning losing that
they they now like pain is the only
thing that will do it. I don't know. But
I think and I believe him. Um there's no
reason for him to lie to me. Uh and I'm
not a gambling addict. I would tell you
if I was. Um, but there's and if I was a
gambling addict, I'd probably tell you
that if I was a gambling addict, I'd
tell you if I was. But, uh, but I'm not.
But, but I think that, you know, I do
think there's something in that
statement that, if it's even a tiny bit
true, might ratchet back to what we were
talking about earlier related to the
relationship between porn, only fans,
masturbation, this feeling of of shame,
this feeling of, oh, like what a waste
of my time, of my money, of energy. I
mean, the shame spiral is a is a real
thing in addicts. It's it's something
that repeats itself over and over again.
And this is why they always say, you
know, addicts are most susceptible to
relapse when they're at their peak of
feeling great and whether at their at
their bottom of feeling like absolute
garbage.
>> That makes sense.
>> Yeah. So, um, you know, again, these
these circuitries are they're they're as
you pointed out, they're wired for us to
progress as a species and knowing that
in order for our species to progress,
not everyone has to win and a lot of
people can lose.
>> Sometimes that's all I need to hear to
remind myself that I want to be like in
the in the in the winning lane.
>> Yes, please.
>> You know, and what that requires these
days more than anything is not
participating in a ton of behaviors.
It's so much more nowadays about what
you choose to opt out of,
>> you know, and so when David Gogggin
says, you know, nowadays it's it's so
much easier or even e easy, although I
think easier is a perhaps more accurate
way to put it to be extraordinary, I
think it's really mostly about what you
don't do, what you're not doing with
your time and energy. And so that's part
of it. I, as an entrepreneur, I'll say
uh to anybody out there that wants to
shine in this era, all you have to do is
work like you're from the 80s. like
period. Like I was just there was
another uh Gen Xer we were like laughing
our asses off at like
>> I mean forgive me for anybody that's had
to do it but it's like when people are I
I need a mental health day. It's like
the [ __ ] is that? So I'm not saying
mental health is not a real thing. It
is. I'm saying you need to have a
relationship with your own mind where
you are in control. And I find people
like in the modern era people just do
not know how to get in control of their
own minds. That is wild to me. So, I
don't know if it's just coming up. We
had you're staring at a wall for like
80% of your life. And so, you've got to
find a way internally to get control of
that process to not be bored out of your
mind or whatever or the way that our
parents raised us. I don't know, man.
But like the it work ethic really is
rare like and it is just looked at
differently.
>> Yeah. Um there was a time people will be
shocked to to hear but uh where if you
missed your ex, if you pined for your
ex, guess what? You you couldn't know
what they were doing. You couldn't text
them. And thank goodness because guess
what you did? You went out and you did
other things. You didn't obsess about
the relationship that you had like two
years ago. You weren't like in comm. You
weren't like, you know, sussing out what
they're doing or wondering if you this
or that. Like you just moved forward.
You had no choice but to either stay
still or move forward.
>> And I think uh I love it. Work like work
like it's uh in the in the 80s. I have
uh a question. You sold your company for
billion dollars. Yeah.
>> It's a lot of money. Um there have been
a few um instances on X and on Reddit
where I've been um kind of pulled into a
conversation around uh the somebody will
sell their company for a ton of money
and they'll come out publicly and say uh
you know I feel suicidal. I don't know
what's wrong with me. I'm super unhappy.
I mean everything we've said up until
this point perfectly explains why that
is. They were on a cycle of striving.
That's where the dopamine was coming
from. Now they've got the reward and
like video game is over and they don't
know what to do
>> and they aren't quite at the point where
and of course as dopamine goes up which
inevitably happens on the day they see
all that money in their bank account it
goes down in in a proportional decrease
you know below baseline takes some time
to come back up. So there's just a
matter of time but then of course
>> it's a daunting thing if it took you how
long did it take you to build question
>> if you count the company before it which
allowed us to fund it 12 years. Okay.
So, let's go for another 12 years. And
yet, you did that. So, I'm interested.
Did you have a kind of postpartum, as
they call it, kind of depression?
>> Literally, not even a little bit.
>> So, did you celebrate your win?
>> Sort of. The team never would have known
what day we sold on because it was um I
went to work like normal. My my wife and
I got in a fight over it.
>> Oh, really?
>> Because she's like, "Okay, what do you
want to do now?" because it was like
happened early in the morning and we had
the call where was like 18 bankers and
confirm confirm confirm because they're
literally going to push a button. It's
going to send you a lot of commas and
zeros.
>> And so they do it. Boom. Money hits.
You're sitting there. Refresh refresh
refresh refresh on your banking app. It
hits. You're like, "Holy hell." And we
actually took a photo of the moment
where it like hit. I've got my fist up
in the air and I'm like, "Oh my god,
like we're actually rich. This is wild."
And she was like, "Okay, what are we
doing now?" I'm like, "What are you
talking about? I'm going to work." And
so she was very surprised. And then when
I left Quest like left left last day,
last day was a Monday.
>> Impact Theory I started the next day on
Tuesday.
>> So I didn't take a day off. And the
reason is because I learned the lesson
about money back at the company before
that. So we had started a company called
Awareness Tech.
>> Okay.
>> And I thought that's what was going to
make me rich.
>> Ended up being totally miserable. Long
story. I end up like I I go in and quit.
I'm like I can't do this anymore. This
is like a nightmare. and they pull me
back and are like, "Listen, we're
unhappy too, but what are we gonna need
to do to stay together?" And so outline
what ends up becoming Quest. And so that
becomes the thing that keeps us all
together was the thing that we would do
and it wasn't about money. So that was
me going, "Well, I'm never going to do
anything again for money because I'm
worth $2 million at the time and I'm so
profoundly unhappy. If I was worth $20
million, I wouldn't care. If I was worth
a billion dollars, I wouldn't care. I
don't I don't want to feel like this."
Mhm.
>> And so I was like, okay, this is why
people tell you that money can't buy
happiness. And so it was thankfully I
learned that in my late 20s and then
didn't get wealthy until my late 30s. So
I had figured out, oh, this is a game of
meaning and purpose. The only thing that
matters is meaning and purpose. Heard,
got it. So I'll never make that mistake.
So when we sold the company, I was like,
uh, the only thing that matters is
pursuit. That is my drug of choice. So,
when I say I'm ambitious, what I mean is
I always want to pursue something
gigantic. And the getting it because now
I've got it. The getting it is cool, but
it's that's going to wear off and I'm
going to get used to it. We're recording
this in a nice fancy house and we have
guests that are staying with us. So, I'm
seeing it now through their eyes again
and I'm like, "Oh, that's right. I live
in some crazy mansion." But you really
that doesn't matter. Like, you're going
to get numb to anything. And so, meaning
and purpose is the only thing that's
going to see you through. working your
ass off in service of making progress,
which actually is the only thing that
matters. Attaining it doesn't, but
making progress towards a goal that is
what I call honorable. So, it serves you
and other people.
>> And if you're doing that, life's going
to be okay. The second you stop doing
that, you nature is going to reach
inside your brain and say, "This is not
good."
>> Man, I love it. You managed to avoid one
of the biggest traps. I mean, I, you
know, grew up in Silicon Valley, some
friends who've done incredibly well
financially with companies and they all
report the same low
>> Yeah.
>> on sale or or a health issue comes along
and they realize that they've been just
destroying themselves health-wise.
>> They haven't watched enough of your
content. That's right. I'm not kidding.
Because for real, for real, the the gift
you are giving to the world is that
people can actually come to understand
their biology. And so if I can get
people to understand, look, I know this
feels dark when you first think about
it, but you're an automata. So these are
all just processes that are running, but
you feel very much like you're in
control. Awesome. It's a great feeling.
I'm glad I have it. So I'm not going to
abuse that. So then I'm like, I am going
to be present in this body, feeling the
way that this body interfaces with the
world. So I need to take that seriously.
And so if I know that sex is awesome but
momentary, relationships are hard but
the greatest thing that life has to
offer you requited love is probably the
right way to think about it. Uh that a
family, kids, like huge emotional
incentives. So not don't do that at your
peril. Like you have to be very careful
with that. Uh I'm always going to want
to pursue no matter how much I achieve.
And the way I explain that to people is
uh you'll never have a meal so
satisfying that you'll never need to eat
again. you'll never have sex so good
that you'll never want to have sex
again. Right? So, you're never going to
have an accomplishment so big that you
don't want to pursue again. So, just
meaning and purpose is nature's way of
continuing to push you forward and make
life worth living. If you don't have
that, suddenly life stops being worth
living. And the question I used to ask
myself all the time was, how many
billionaires have to commit suicide
before I accept that money won't be the
answer? And so then it's just like,
okay, cool. These are all knowable
things. I'm just going to act in
accordance. I
>> mean, it's remarkable that you're able
to see information and make sense of it
and apply it. I think a lot of people
can see information, make sense of it,
and they're less effective at applying
it. I mean,
>> I have just suffered more perhaps like
I've been so dumb and suffered so much
because of my stupidity that I'm
literally just trying to be like, "Okay,
look, I do dumb [ __ ] all the time. I
would just like to not repeat the dumb
stuff." Doing dumb [ __ ] is part of that
s gene too much to my dismay. This is
part of like hitting yourself with the
rock then person then throwing the rock.
I mean I I definitely um I think that
>> in building a life as they say right I
think what you talk about in terms of
meaning and purpose it's something that
um if somebody doesn't know exactly what
it is it can feel a little bit
overwhelming like how do I find my
meaning? How do I find my purpose? And I
I really do believe that it starts with
the immediately actionable things that
you at least know are not net negative.
They can be neutral or they can be
positive, but at least they're not net
negative. I have this diagram and I'm
almost embarrassed to share it, but I,
you know, turning 50, I've been working
my ass off for a long time and really
enjoying it and loving it. And um and I
share this only because I think it might
be useful to people. I I realized that I
get up in the morning, I do the
sunlight, I do the hydration, I get some
exercise, I take care of myself in the
ways I describe on the podcast, but I
have this little drawing that keeps me
in line and keeps me in healthy pursuit.
And it's basically a picture I like to
draw. Um I sometimes put my drawings on
Instagram, but I maybe I'll put this one
someday. It's just basically like a a
giant ball of like of razor wire in the
middle. And then on the other side of
that razor wire is like a a road and
I'll have like you know like writing
book podcasts like learning, reading
papers, meditation, exercise, although I
like to exercise. So like all the things
that lie on the other side of this
really it it takes effort to get over
there. I think some people think I just
like wake up and I'm like I used to be
like that in I used to wake up in the
middle of the night and just start
working then fall back asleep in my 20s
and 30s. Now it's it's a bit more of a
battle, you know, and I used to get
upset with myself. What what changed?
Well, on either side of that razor wire,
I have these like two slopes. And on one
side is it literally says like numbing
out. And on the other side, it just says
like ragebait engagement. And so I
actually think that represents my merge
of kind of creative real world and and
virtual world nowadays where I wake up
into the world and I know that there
just gonna be a bunch of things that are
pulling on me that are like a slippery
slope I could fall down. And so it's not
enough for me to just say, "Okay, I'm
going to just go on social media for 10
minutes uh and that's it." It's not that
I'll be on there for three hours. I I
have self-control, but I have to remind
myself what my neural circuits are
confronted with each day. And I'll tell
you, there's nothing like the feeling of
getting over that razor wire, sometimes
I feel like I'm I'm literally crawling
through it and getting to the other side
and completing some work. So that even
just like 45 minutes of really solid
work, that landscape transforms into a
completely different picture where it's
just a flat landscape and I can go
anywhere I want the rest of the day. And
I'm not, you know, exaggerating that
that the transformation and what I sort
of feel capable of is completely
different. I only offer that as, you
know, just um if people are struggling
to be like, "Yeah, I'm hearing all this,
but I'm watching it and I'm not doing
anything with it." Like you you have to
kind of scruff yourself and throw
yourself through the razor wire these
days. It's getting harder to work like
you did in the 80s because as you said,
one of the benefits of the 80s and 90s
was that there wasn't a lot of
distraction.
>> You know, you could take a bus ride and
read a book or learn or journal or, you
know, do math problems or do your
homework or whatever the hell it was,
right? And if you complain, people were
just like, "Stop complaining, [ __ ] Get
to [ __ ] work."
>> Yeah. And listen, I get it. Like there
is a certain amount of toxicity that I
understand, but it also made people
tougher.
>> The thing that I grew up skateboarding
and I wasn't great at it. I mean, I got
put on
>> a thousand times worse than you, but
also
>> Well, I got put on a team out of
sympathy. So, that's how bad it was. But
I have a lot of friends in that world.
And I'll tell you, you know, there's
this story, real world story that a few
years back. You know, a dad push his
daughter didn't want to drop in on the
ramp. I think it was his daughter, maybe
his son. and he pushed her and I think
he actually got charged with a with a
like a like a charge when I was a kid.
And this is kind of like when I was a
kid, but this is true. When I was a kid,
there's a guy he's my good friend Gary.
I've known him since I was 14. The way
you dropped in on a vert rant was you
put your tail down and it's scary. It
looks overt.
>> You look like you're going to die.
>> You look like you're going to die and
you and you potentially could slam
really hard. But I've seen some broken
arms on first attempts and second
attempt. And basically Gary would say to
me,
>> I'm going to push down to the end of the
deck, the thing up on top, and I'm going
to push back. And by the time I make it
back, you've either dropped in or I'm
going to push you in. Guess what? I
dropped in on my own. Did I slam? Yes,
dude. So, there was a different mindset.
And I think when we were kids, it sucked
to hear I trudge for seven miles in the
snow. So, we're kind of in that a little
bit. We're a little bit in that right
now. And I want to acknowledge that we
know we're in that. But the thing that
you can't get in your teens and 20s and
30s, you have that drive, but the thing
you can't get is how valuable it is to
capture the best of what's available to
you and to discard the worst of what's
available to you. And like there's this
whole notion like no one's coming to
save you. Like no one's coming to save
you. It took me, you know, I had to be
in real states of fear, you know, real
states of fear to yank myself out of of
of mediocrity. And there was a stage in
my life where I was really just like not
I wasn't doing [ __ ] at all basically
except dumb stuff. And so no one's
coming to save you. But the best part is
when you start saving yourself even a
little bit, the sense of agency that
comes from that is awesome. And for
anyone younger hearing this, I'm just
going to tell you that someday you'll be
on a microphone telling telling someone
like when you're in your 20s and 30s. So
I'm here to say that on the threshold of
my 50th birthday, you're going to be
there too. it have. I remember when we'd
s be like, "Why are these guys talking
to us about how hard it was and this and
that, but I think that's the only real
uh thing that you can't access when
you're young. Youth isn't wasted on the
young, you know, like it's kind of what
you do with it, you know? It's like it's
it's an opportunity. Someone kicks a
soccer ball your way. You can use it or
not use it, but you I love the phrase,
it's from um Sam Sheridan's book of
Fighter Heart, a book I I really love
about all the different fighting sports,
and he says, you know, um you can't have
your 20th birthday until you're 19.
There's certain things you just have to
wait for and there are certain things
that just require experience. But the
other stuff it's like you just have to
like scruff yourself and get your ass in
gear. And that razor wire picture I
offer up because it it doesn't get
easier but to do it but it gets more and
more predictable how to do it and and so
it's the same effort every day. There
very few days that are just easy breezy.
This notion of flow is kind of an
illusion in my mind. Um flow comes on
the other side of the razor wire.
>> I love that. All right. You've given a
ton of advice to people uh at the
individual level. Now given your
closeness certainly to Jay Badacharia.
How would you advise the current
administration like how should we be
approaching this so that good ideas get
to the broader public? And there's
really two people I want to talk to you
about. Jay Bodacharia uh at the NIH and
then RFK at the HHS. Like what should
these guys be doing?
>> Yeah. too and just get into some like
non-controversial territory.
>> Of course, let's go all the way to
vaccines.
>> Sure. So, before I do this, I'm I just
want to say very clearly and I I'm not
saying this to um impress. I'm saying
this because I I want to make sure that
what I'm about to say people understand
my framework. I you know, I am only here
because US tax dollars funded the grants
that I worked on for my PhD, my posttock
and in my laboratory. I was an NIH
reviewer for many years. So, I reviewed
grants decide what get funded, what
didn't get funded. I was a I was a
standing member and I had grants from
the NIH for many years which means
millions of taxpayer dollars helped fund
my laboratory to do research. So I
understand the process of of of what
gets funded and what doesn't get funded
and this kind of thing. Um okay Jay and
I know each other well. Uh I know Robert
less well. Um, I think it's absolutely
crucial that there be an audit of the
NIH. And I think that's uh what J
>> what would we be looking for?
>> We're looking at what work is meaningful
and what work is derivative. You know,
I'm going to get some some hate from my
scientist friends for this, but if
you're not doing derivative work, you're
not worried about it. Derivative work is
work that the NIH traditionally has
favored funding very
what we would call incremental work. And
this is a shame. This has to do with the
fact that the grant process became so
competitive that they really wanted to
see work already completed before they'd
say they'd fund it. So there was this
game that scientists have been playing
for the last 10-15 years that no one
wants to talk about, but I insist on
talking about which is you would
complete the work, then you would submit
your grant, show that you could do the
work, they'd fund that work, and then
you would use the money to do the next
thing, repeat. The problem with this
model is that it forces fields to move
very very slowly. There's also a process
in which it feeds this kind of um
communities working on similar problems
so that everyone can understand everyone
else's grants very well. And if you come
up with something that's really outside
the box, a very high potential payoff.
There was a lot of discussion around
supporting innovation and significance
and big outcomes, but those weren't the
grants typically getting funded. It was
very hard to change fields or do
something new. So scientific progress
especially in the neurosciences has been
very slow. There's been a lot of
technology development but if you look
at the developments in cell biology and
cancer biology in the last you know 50
years you compare that to neuroscience.
Neuroscience got a surge but it progress
has been slow in terms of treating
disease. Certainly we don't have
treatments for most of the major
neurolog and psychiatric diseases. So
first and foremost
I want JN company to encourage
high-risisk high potential payoff not
risk in terms of public health risk but
high potential payoff work. What that
means is some grants are only going to
get funded go five years and it'll be
nothing and someone will have to come up
with a completely new proposal. So
that's
>> are there areas you want to see them
focus cancer Alzheimer's
>> psychiatric and neurologic illness.
After all it's the National Institutes
of Health. Now people will say well
mouse work isn't the same as human work.
Mouse work is I'll go on record saying
very important for establishing basic
mechanisms that then are translated to
humans. However there are a lot of
studies that are being done in mouse now
and in you know models like sea elegance
worms and drosophila flies that um are
kind of repeating themes that we've
known about for a long time.
>> And you think that's pointless? I I
think it's a waste of taxpayer dollars
given there are finite number of
dollars. I think there needs to be a
very serious audit of what work is
really meaningful. And I'm not saying
take people's money away completely. I'm
saying you tell people listen you got
one more year or else you got to propose
something radically different
>> because the taxpayers are no longer
interested in government funded arts and
crafts.
Some work, I'll say this, I don't like
saying this, but the truth is some work
is phenomenal and is really making great
strides to improving human health and
treating disease. Some of it is
government funded arts and crafts. And I
think that the scientists out there,
they know who they are. Now,
there is value in basic research. It
doesn't all have to be applied research.
I mean, crisper, right, came from
discoveries that were essentially from
microbiology.
>> So, you never really know what's going
to, you know, where things can lead. But
we're now living in the age where you
can make much better hypotheses about
what could lead to to better fields. I
think the other thing that's really
important is
>> I do believe and I'm going to catch a
lot of flack for this on X
>> COVID and vaccine controversies aside,
we need to maintain or increase the
federal budget for research. It's not a
huge huge portion of the federal budget.
And believe it or not, both sides of
Congress agree on that. It's very
unlikely that the federal budget for
research will be cut. And then people
say, well, I don't want to pay for this
stuff that's meaningless. It's all with
big pharma. Listen, it's not all linked
into big pharma. Most scientists are
doing really good work. They're trying
to get it right. And most who are doing
kind of derivative work that's not very,
you know, high potential payoff are
doing that because it's been the way
traditionally that you get your grant
funded. So, we need an overhaul
>> where really exciting high potential
payoff work is being supported. That's
the number one thing. The number two
thing is we need to incentivize young
scientists to go into the field. We are
losing a generation of scientists. This
was true before the new administration
because doing science is hard. You don't
get rich doing it. And there's a lot of
uncertainty in it. So, we need to make
sure that there's enough grant dollars
directed towards younger investigators.
So, I'm talking about 55 and younger.
>> That's young.
>> Yeah. or even you know cuz you're
finishing your PhD typically when you're
in your early 30s and then you're your
posttock in your 30s and people are
starting their labs in their 40s.
>> Wow.
>> Oh man that you're getting your first
RO1 your first big grant. My I got my
first RO1 let's see I I want to make
sure I get this right. I got my first
RO1 at 35.
>> Dude, genius is a young man's game. How
are they dealing with that? Like when
you look at physicists, all of their
breakthroughs are in their 20s and early
30s. Like
>> yeah, physics and math tend to be fields
where most of the great discoveries
happen early in someone's career.
Biology tends to build on itself within
laboratories and and as people go on and
their laboratories get bigger and better
funded they are able to acquire better.
>> Did we see that even before the current
like grant?
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's always you know my
former posttock adviser Ben Baris he's
dead now but he used to say like no one
these are his words but he used to say
uh no one does anything interesting
after uh you know five years after
tenure they're kind of like their big
discoveries are done and then they tend
to do really great labs tend to do
really great work but if you really look
and you go is this like awesome work I
mean there there examples like DNA lab
and crisper and things like that but a
lot of labs are just kind of like stamp
collecting at that point they get really
good at the grants and papers game right
>> um and I'm not cynical about science. I
love research science. Yeah, I love it.
I mean, it's the raw materials for the
podcast after all, you know.
>> Fish tanks, but
>> yeah, it's not fish tanks and it's, you
know, but
>> it's not crypto, you know, but no, I'm
not into crypto a little bit. Um, but
here's the thing. If we can fund higher
potential payoff work and we can support
the younger researchers and several of
my graduate students and posttos now run
their own labs. So, yes, I'm heavily
biased here. I'm not saying that the
older investigators need to like be
turned out to pasture. They have a lot
of value to bring to teaching. They have
a lot of value to bring to grant review,
to paper review. They should be the one
doing all the like boring administrative
stuff for which there's no um they'll
keep their jobs and get salaries and
some of them are spectacular, but they
can get private funding. They're going
to hate you.
>> Thank you for saying handed you like a
big stack of these are the grant
applications. Are there like keywords
you'd be searching for?
>> I'd read abstracts and I would look at
publications and
>> but like narrow narrow it down for me.
you're like, uh,
>> so obviously we're going to be in
neuroscience, but like what are the big
things you're like, if we solve that?
>> Yeah.
>> Is it Alzheimer's?
>> Yeah. So, if I saw a grant that said,
you know, you know, in the last round of
funding or what I'm proposing is to is
to test a completely new molecule in the
context of Alzheimer's. This molecule is
found in neurons. This molecule
accumulates in Alzheimer's brains. And
>> so Alzheimer's number one,
>> Alzheimer's is one of the major ones. I
would say um Parkinson's is another um
>> is that on the rise?
>> Uh Parkinson's is you know common enough
that you know loss of dopamineergic
neurons is common enough that you'd want
you want to you want to be able to treat
this. Yeah. It's it's age associated
also. So there's severe and less severe
forms.
>> I would say restoring vision to the
blind a field that was my former field
huge. I mean more than 80 million people
per year get glaucoma which is the
second leading cause of blindness.
Cataract we can now treat. can slide out
the the the you know the the oluded lens
and put in a new one that's been done. I
mean um and it's the eye is you know
it's more than an engineering problem
but it's an engineering/biology problem.
Neural links working on this paralysis
as well. There are other people working
on this stuff but I would say
Alzheimer's is a huge one. I do think
that the emphasis on metabolic health in
the brain is a very interesting idea. Um
I've heard you ask questions. I have no
idea what your thesis is on this, but
ask questions about the relatedness of
parental metabolic health to autism.
>> Is that like autism from where I'm
sitting is like the rates are
skyrocketing so hard?
>> 3% 3% three out of 100 births.
>> God damn.
>> The world expert in this, Sergio Pasca,
he's an MD at Stanford. He studies this.
He's working on treatments and cures for
autism. Three out%. Now, they vary in
severity, right? You have what's called
profound autism, people that will always
require support. You have people that
are kind of on different aspects of the
spectrum. You have things like Timothy
syndrome, which is associated with heart
defects as well. You know, when people
say, you know, why are we trying to cure
autism? I understand what they're
saying.
>> I don't. That's crazy.
>> You know, but ask parents, would you
rather have your unborn baby be, you
know, uh, somebody be an autistic child
or non-aututistic child? You're going to
get a the answer you expect. Also we
rarely discuss the the physical health
issues that are associated with autism
>> that are uh like epilepsy like heart uh
heart challenges like gut microbiome
challenges that are very severe in many
cases. So, but it's 3% it's 4:1 male to
female now, which is that SRY gene
confir confers a susceptibility also. Or
it could be that females are protected
somehow against whatever it is. you know
Chris Palmer who perhaps you know he's a
psychiatrist from Harvard Medical School
he's really been pushing this idea that
early inflammation of the brain is
always inflammation excessive
inflammation brought about by any number
of different things maybe multiple
things might establish a greater
susceptibility to autism and explain
some of this so that's why he talks
about metabolic health in the parents
>> and so speaking of RFK have we
completely debunked the idea of vaccines
and autism
>> okay so Robert Kennedy wants to
reinvestigate.
Um, here's the deal. Here's what we know
in the published literature. Just stick
to that because the rest is really just
speculation, right?
>> Andrew Wakefield was this medical doctor
in uh in the UK who published papers on
the what he said was a link between
vaccines and autism. Um, MMR measles
mom's rebella vaccine and autism.
>> There are people who still believe
there's a link based on those data.
Here's what we know for sure. those
papers were retracted and he lost his
medical license for fraudulent for
allegations of fraud.
>> Okay, I didn't go into those papers. I
don't you know, but that so that's where
that stands. There's another group. This
is a husband, excuse me, this is a
fatherson group who have also been on
this kind of vaccine autism train um who
I think the last name is is is
pronounced Meyer. I think it's me Jer
something like that. and they've also
been big proponents of this idea that
vaccines are associated with autism.
Here's the problem with their data. The
problem is many of their papers have
been shown by others to have flaws in
methodology andor that the review
process wasn't carried out the way that
standard review was carried out. Now,
I'm not saying I didn't go and you know
I'm not the one making those claims.
Other people are making those claims. So
there's very little um belief in those
papers from the traditional academic and
medical community. And yet those are
used often to site um you know support
for the vaccine autism link.
>> My understanding is that RFK placed one
or both of those guys on this sort of uh
vaccine review board. So you know that's
controversial in its own right.
>> Yeah.
>> There are many.
>> Are you tense about that personally?
Like I don't know how much you want to
comment about that but
>> Sure. I mean, I think that there have to
be balancers for any anytime someone has
an extreme position. You know, you don't
want a panel made up of, you know,
diametrically opposed positions, you
know, with a big valley in the middle.
You also don't want a bunch of people
lumped up on one side that all believe
the party line or go against the party
line. I think panels of reasonable
experts that can really debate things
and vote is the way to go. Um, but we
have to have thresholds for what we
consider good data versus bad data. Now
in in the current situation we say
published is published. Some people say
well that journal's the great journal
nature science right? Other people say
well nature and science isn't that you
know people start arguing about this and
and then you're down in the weeds around
you know science sociology. My feeling
is look
>> there are many papers that point to no
lack of direct relationship between
vaccines and autism. However, and I I
just can't in good conscience just say
that full stop. So I say, however,
if those are really strong data, they'll
hold up for another investigation. Now,
is that what we want to be spending our
federal tax dollars on? Apparently. So,
right, he's head of HHS. He gets to
decide. Good data should stand the test
of time. So, I do think if they're if
they're going to go in and test them
again, and apparently they are, it
should stand up. it should stand up.
How those studies are done, who's
reviewing the papers, and you know, how
they're interpreted is going to be
absolutely critical. So, I think it
should be an independent review board.
So, people that are really know how to
look at the data and for which they have
no bias one way or the other that they
have no skin in the game. We're not
talking about, you know, um bringing in
Peter Hotz, who's like a real vaccine
proponent versus, you know, Malone,
right? Because it's just like that's
like um it's like professional wrestling
at this point.
>> That is so well said. like, you know,
like we got we they're just that's not
both those guys could you argue me into
the ground that they're the more
qualified and I know I have my opinion
but it's just they're the wrong people
for this situation. We need a bunch of
really great cancer biologists. We need
some people outside the US and we need
people that are open to the possibility
because this is what Palmer has raised
that there may be an inflammation
susceptibility that certain vaccines
exacerbate
>> and that there's a genetic
predisposition predisposition excuse me
to autism that sends things down a
certain trajectory. I have a feeling
whatever the answer is it's going to be
far more complex than yes they cause
autism or no they don't.
>> Okay. Now in terms of Robert's general
theme of let's get dyes out of the food.
Cool. like let's get dyes out of the
food. Is is that the biggest issue that
we're facing? No. I think the highly
processed foods are not food. I think
they have calories. I think they
increase dopamine. I think they provide
very few nutrients and they provide
little satiety. They are basically the
equivalent the nutritional equivalent of
only fans minus the masturbation part.
Okay. So, they're about as good for our
species.
>> Should I be jerking off when I eat
Twinkies as I know and now this
>> I got to get something out of this.
>> No. No. So I think hilarious, you know,
and we also, you know, I've been looking
at this historically, right? I'm not a
nutrition scientist, but you know, if
you step back and you look at, you know,
what's the history of cuisine in the
United States? We're not a country
famous for our love of nutritious food.
What are the American foods? As American
as apple pie, cheeseburgers, corn dogs,
hot dogs, fried chicken, milkshakes,
>> pizza. Yeah, that's literally the way I
grow.
>> And then everything else that we like is
like the the the really high calorie fat
and carb combinations with sugar like
croissants, lasagna, like that's our
version of French and and Italian food,
right? And so this is not a country that
historically has thought much about high
nutrient density relative to calories.
And I think that's really the key, high
nutrient density relative to calories.
So you want your proteins, for me
that's, you know, meat, fish, eggs,
chicken, etc. Um, you want your quality
fats, you want your olive oils, your
some saturated fat from butter if some
it's probably fine as long as it's
limited. You want your clean starches,
right? You know, pasta, rice, these
things. But if you go to France, you
know, they take great pride in the
nutritional value and taste of their
food and how satiating it is at a given
portion. That's not the United States.
We were always about volume and value.
And what happened is we stopped moving.
We started eating more and we stopped
moving. If Ompic has has solved any
puzzle, it's the following. Why is
everybody so fat? Or you weren't even
allowed to say that word a few years
ago. Why is everybody so fat? Because
they're eating more calories than they
burn. We like sat around scratching our
heads for years going, I wonder why
everyone's getting they were we were
eating more and moving less. And I'm not
being disparaging, right? I mean,
obesity is a serious health concern. You
can now finally talk about this as a
health concern. And the ones that are
really like that have been injured the
most are these poor kids that were just
eating what they were given. you know,
they're not they're not trying to damage
themselves.
>> So, and then the problem is that that
atapose fat tissue generates its own
hormone signals and then it starts
diminishing the the other hormone
systems of the body and depleting, you
know, intramuscular fat gets stored and
then now you've got a really sick
animal, human that you wouldn't, you
know, you wouldn't do this to your dog
and we're doing this to ourselves. So, I
think RFK's emphasis on dyes is is kind
of like tip of the iceberg. I think the
key is you can't outlaw things in this
country very easily, right? Especially
not foods, especially on limited
budgets. But I think the real emphasis
should be on getting people knowledge
about and access to really nutritious
food, which includes things like steaks
and burgers. It's just like, you know,
peel away the sugar filled buns and the
and the cheese and get them eating that
and vegetables and fruit. And I think
we're going to get there, but not after
a lot of pain and suffering. So, um, as
you can probably tell, I'm very
passionate about these issues because
people say, you know, the federal budget
for research is ridiculous. This all
just funds big pharma. No, it doesn't.
Like, no, it doesn't. Like, that's just
that's a lie. Like, the number of grants
that are funded by NIH funded labs,
these people aren't making a lot of
money on pharma. And if they do make a
discovery like the discovery of growth
hormone a few years ago, yeah, the
investigator might get some money, the
university gets some money and yeah, the
for the the the company makes some
money, but like I think we all are
grateful that growth hormone exists as a
as a as a thing that you know, synthetic
growth hormone. So, it's not this like
diabolical structure that that we
imagine. Big pharma has its issues.
>> I was going to say this this is where
>> but it's not academia that's the
problem. That's why I want to be very
clear and now I of course I'm biased,
right? I'm still a tenure professor at
Stanford.
>> I think it's worth like putting your
foot down on that especially because
you're from the inside. You're somebody
that's earned certainly a lot of
credibility by years five of putting out
good information. But I so entering the
economic realm I realized very quickly
that like in physics when you offer a
new theory it better describe the world
that I see. Mhm.
>> So in economics, when you describe like,
hey, capitalism works, you better
explain then why [ __ ] is so broken right
now.
>> And if you cannot explain why somebody
can't afford a house, why so many people
are like the American dream is dead. If
you can't explain why that's happening,
don't come to me with like this thing
that I'm supposed to believe works
wonders isn't working.
>> Yeah, great, great argument. The great
argument. So going back to the earlier
part about what I would tell Jay, why is
the NIH kind of broken or been broken?
Well, we're not funding young
investigators. They're not incentivized.
It's meaning it's hard to get money to
do really new things. It's very
derivative. What's the problem? And I'm
going to earn a lot of enemies this way.
You know, I have tenure. I'm good. Is
too many older investigators. They're
not retiring.
>> They're not retiring. In Japan, they
understand this. They do a forced
retirement. too many um I think it's
65ow I could be wrong but but there's
real value placed on the young
investigators there so in our system you
have people who are have like five six
seven eight grants that's a huge number
of grants that's five six seven eight
grants that could fund five six seven
eight other laboratories that are
starting out they're taking too much of
the funding and these are the same
people who are saying we need more money
because the young investigators aren't
going to have any money they're taking
too much so I don't earn any friends in
the older group, but look, I' I also
have this independent life now. So like
they like come at me. Like I've seen how
this process works. They can run off
foundation money. They're tenure.
They'll still get a salary. You get more
time with your kids and grandkids. Spend
some time mentoring the younger
generation of scientists.
>> We need to peel off that top layer. And
yes, some of them are doing spectacular
work. And guess what? It's time to go
because there's only a finite amount of
money. And those people are eventually
going to retire and die. I've watched
many of them retire and die. They're
going to retire and die. And this next
generation, there's a huge trough in
terms of their funding. We've got people
leaving science in the United States.
And if you want to look at from a
monetary perspective, the return on
investment to great science done in
basic laboratories is enormous. It's
like a 20 to1 20 to1 bas you know it's
it's variable because not every lab is
going to make a you know like a
druggable uh discovery or a deisable
discovery but when you look at it
historically that's a that's an
underestimate so and I'm probably even
lower than I should be. I'm going to
stay conservative with that. So the
problem is too many old scientists not
doing much but taking too much of the
funding and publishing derivative
papers. This is the issue. And you know,
you might get the sense that maybe I've
been asked about this and maybe I'm like
playing a bit of a role. You bet. You
bet I am. Yeah, you bet. And I'm not
competing for funding anymore. I don't
need their money. So,
>> I'm very excited for the Huberman I
don't give a [ __ ] arc like that. Well,
>> I feel like we're at the very beginning.
>> We're at the Today, today was the
official start. We're unveiling.
>> I told Rob, my producer, before coming
over here, I yesterday we were talking,
I said, you know, I feel like I'm at the
I feel I'm at like kind of a
maturational threshold. and he goes,
"Uhoh."
>> Yeah. I mean, I' I've done enough. I
don't I'm not all wise, but these are
these are systems and areas that I'm
very familiar with.
>> And I think that um young scientists are
also very afraid of older scientists
because they're like, "Oh, all the
promotions, all the elected to the
National Academy." Look, in a couple
years, the National Academy of
Scientists might not even exist.
>> Wow.
>> Trump might eliminate the tripleas, the
American Academy of Science, American
Associ.
So this whole kind of old network is
these things have gone on on cycles. Ray
Dalio talks about financial and cultural
and you know these macro cycles over 500
years. These happen in science too and
I've studied those with with a with a
fine tooth comb.
>> I've studied those and what you see is
every few years a field kind of wakes up
because guess what the veils per pulled
back and they're like okay where are all
the discoveries? What are we doing
wrong? They go well it's slow. It's
hard. And they go actually let's look at
the structure of what you've been doing.
uh revision and that's going to happen
in the next few years and I think that
um
>> and you're here for it. You're clapping
or
>> I'm I'm here for it provided and I do
think Jay has been very very good about
lending his ear to people. This isn't
Jay Bar is not a radical disruptor. He's
somebody that is definitely under you
know competing pressures and he's doing
his best. Um, but he's listening and my
hope is that he'll do what you know, at
least these two things. He He says he
will and I'm going to I mean, you can
bet I'm going to stay in his ear.
>> And there's a cohort of younger
investigators that run labs that are
like, yeah, like we really want to go
after big problems. We need the money to
do it. And so it's like old guys and
gals, time to step aside. And if they
say the same thing about me and
podcasting someday, I'll step aside.
There's a time to hang up your cleats.
>> Okay, here here's where I will take a
different stance. So Eric Weinstein was
the first person to introduce me to this
idea that the old guard needs to step
aside. I I'll take a hard pass on that.
The new kids need to get so hardcore
that they cannot be [ __ ] denied. Like
plain and simple, podcasting became
podcasting because it was young guys
that were like, "Fuck these kids. Like
I'm not going to try to Yeah. with TV.
Like I'm just going to go do my own
thing."
>> It's like indie music in the '90s.
>> A thousand%. Like look, it if you can
take over the current system, do it.
That's awesome. The infrastructure is
already there. But if you can't, you
don't just hang your cleats up, cry
about it. Like the like look back in
history, it's always the young bucks
that are like, "Cool, I'll find a way
around this." We need people to your
point, like we've got to get culture to
say, "Dear young, brilliant mind, I want
to celebrate the life out of you when
you go do a thing and be successful."
That's why I love what you've done in
terms of becoming a podcaster, getting
literal global notoriety. Obviously, it
comes with slings and arrows, but it's
incredible the fact that we get to watch
you learn this stuff. You make it
available to all of us. And now you're
getting to that wisdom part of your
career where you also have the director
of the NIH in your phone. It's like
that's the that's a really interesting
thing. But it came of you coming up
through the like way youngans did it.
You know what I mean? Like you're
inventing a new path and you're doing
something new and different. So, may you
never step aside, but may you get
outperformed. It's like that. I want
someone to I want to be able to fight as
hard as I can, and I want a young buck
to take it from me, but I'm not going to
give it up. I'm going to hand it over
and try to do my [ __ ] till the day I
die.
>> And we're taking good care of ourselves,
so they're going to have to come at us.
>> They're going to have to fight hard. But
it's like, I'm not going to pull the
ladder up. That's where I'm like, "All
right, you're a dick." Like, if you're
pulling the ladder up and you're trying
to handicap the next generation in some
way,
>> uh, I couldn't respect myself if I was
doing that. But I also wouldn't respect
myself if I was like, "All right, you
just take it up. Get out of here."
>> No, I have no plans to hang up my
cleats. I think that, you know, there
will be a natural end point at some
point by death or something else or I'll
pivot to something.
>> I I'll speak for myself. I will fade
into irrelevance. I have no doubt that
there'll just I'll be so disconnected
from culture. It it'll just be too
different. And so the people that
understand me, the grip like me, they're
just going to die. I mean, this this is
the way of things. I don't have any beef
with that, but I'm going to go down
swinging. M
>> well I love documentaries and I love
watching documentaries across fields and
uh you know we talked about the 27
effect you know people dying at 27 like
you want a really um beautiful uh window
into kind of like the spirit of art and
how fame can destroy somebody and like
you know watch you know Boscia about
Jeia Michelle Boscia or the documentary
about him or I just recently watched the
future is unwritten which is a free
documentary about Joe Strummer and the
clash. The clash only lasted for 5
years.
>> Wow they had that.
>> It's wild. It was a short and then he
went into this long kind of creative
desert that lasted almost 12 to 15
years.
>> Came back at the end and did three
albums that were produced by my friend
Tim Armstrong
>> with a band that was not punk. It was
Joe Strummer and the Mascaleros. Amazing
music. And as Tim said, there's three
masterpieces at the end of his career.
He seemed to like pull together all the
aspects of himself like having grown up
in Cairo and all these places at the
end. And what I watched that and I was
like, "Oh, this is so interesting."
Because if you watch other music band
documentaries, Grateful Dead or
whatever, you'll see that there are
these there these arcs where people have
it's the initial thing like you watch
the Defiant Ones about beats,
>> you know, and that whole thing with um
with Dre and like you see there's this
sort of essence energy at the beginning
when you're just being you and then that
like creates this big wave and then
there's inevitably like people fall out
because of the excesses or because of
the public attention and then people
grapple with kind of like trying to find
their way and then the ones that break
through that with knowledge of how the
system works and they still have the
energy and they're not succumbing to the
excesses. It's like they're the ones
that really rise to to like major power
and you can never really predict where
they're going to be. Benevolent power,
creative power. So that's why like Dre
is where he's at. You look at his story
versus like some of the other guys in
NWA and it's like whoa like these are
very divergent paths, right? Dead,
>> jail, destroyed into Ignomin versus like
you know where Dre is at, right? So, but
they all started from the same place.
And so, you start looking at these two
very different genres of music or you
look at like a a scientific career like
Oliver Sachs turned public health
educator and you start realizing there's
always this kind of like raw energy not
really thinking about where it's going
to go, breakthrough,
downshift, and then most people
dissipate at that point. So, the ability
to just keep pushing through like you
did, you sold Quest. What did you do the
next day? You went back to work. I'm so
grateful to my PhD adviser because I
didn't have that good sense and that you
know I'll never forget I think it was my
second paper in graduate school we
published it in science it's like you
know less than 1% acceptance rate my
second paper I'm like publish in science
magazine and I was so stoked and my dad
who's a scientist was like just enjoy
this feeling but you can expect a dip
afterwards he somehow understood the
dopamine trough and I went to her I was
like are we going to throw a party and
she's like I mean we could get a pizza
or something but like you already had
the party and I was like what do you
mean she's like the work was the party
Yeah.
>> And I was like, "Okay, no party." Went
back in and we ended up publishing like
eight or 10 papers together. Yeah. Over
the next, you know, it took us some
years, but and that was so valuable cuz
I thought you win, you celebrate. And
she was like, I mean, we could have a
pizza, but like why not just go back to
the process.
>> Yeah.
>> So, it like really speaks it's a much,
you know, it's a micro level. It wasn't
the sale of a billion dollar company,
but the lesson was the same for me. So,
but yeah, I'm not I'm not going to pull
up the ladder either. I want to see more
great podcasters. When Chris Williamson
hopped on the scene, I was like, "This
kid's gonna do awesome." It's weird that
I call him a kid. He's like a peer. He's
not that much younger than me. Um, but
he he was on Love Island, so we get to
tease him a little bit, but I was like,
"This guy's going to be a major player."
I could just see it. You It's like it's
just apparent. And now I've I've been
watching um Founders podcast with David
Senra. He kind of does around Founders
and that kind of thing. He's uh he nerds
out and does these solos. And I'm like
that the passion that he's putting in
it. I'm like
>> this guy's killing it.
>> Yeah. When you see somebody that's
really
>> just the energy like that and it feeds
us cuz it reminds us of like how it all
you're like yes there's more of us.
>> You know that's cool.
>> Yeah
>> brother. I have so many more things that
I could ask you but uh I will just thank
you for coming on. This was absolutely
incredible. Thank you so much for your
time. This was really really fun. It was
a great fun for me too and it's always a
pleasure to sit down and to see you. U
and I'm I'm in such gratitude for you
and and Lisa and and just what you've
been doing and like your spirit about
it. Like I don't know if things get you
down. If they do, it's not apparent and
uh you've been a real inspiration for
me. You were in this game before I was
and so you're like my kind of like the
varsity guy when I was coming up as JV.
So
>> extremely kind. No, it's it's true. And
and uh I learn from you all the time on
camera, off camera. So I'm in in real
gratitude to you. I appreciate it. Well,
the next thing I want to do, I want to
get you to be a fullblown capitalist.
>> So, if you want to tell people where
they can get some of this
>> incredible Yerba Mate, everybody.
>> Yeah. So, I'm half Argentine. My dad's
Argentine. I grew up drinking loose leaf
mate, which is stuff out of the gourd.
And um I always wanted a zero sugar cold
brew mate. So, I developed and I'm a
partial owner, full disclosure, in
Matina Yerba Mate. They're now on
Amazon. Soon they'll be in that big
store where everybody shops for uh
healthy stuff and other places. Um and
you can order directly from Matina. It's
awesome. It has zero sugar, 120 uh grams
of uh excuse me, 120 milligrams of
caffeine. It's all organic. Um it's got
organic ginger juice. It's tastes
awesome. There a bunch of flavors like
peach and mint and raspberry and mango
and and uh I love this stuff. I full
disclosure, I'm a serious caffeine
drinker. I drink like up to 800
milligrams of caffeine a day. Most
people don't require that, but it's a
super clean energy. I love it. And if
you if you give it a try and and you
like it or if you don't, you know, send
me some feedback as a DM on Instagram.
But
>> listen, man, I love it. Obviously, I'm a
big believer in um entrepreneurship and
people making incredible products that
they really believe in. And uh to
everybody out there watching, he showed
up with this today just to let me try
some. I didn't even know it was his. So,
I was like, "Bro, you you got to start
like putting this stuff on. the intended
promotional thing.
>> No, but I want to get him wearing
t-shirts. Like for real. Like when you
make something that you believe in, like
stand 10 toes down. Let the world know.
Like don't be bashful. I know that
people are going to [ __ ] and complain
or whatever, but literally the modern
world brought to you by entrepreneurs.
>> And so being bashful about the things
that you create, bringing something to
market is incredibly difficult. And now
the market's going to decide whether
it's good or not. But getting it to this
point is extremely difficult, very rare.
Uh and I'm excited to try it, man. So I
hope that it smashes for you.
>> Thank you. Well, I hope you like it and
um yeah, 90% of the adult population in
the world consumes caffeine every day
and I will argue that it's the best,
most even, clear energy. So, I I love it
and I'm excited for people to try it.
>> Yeah, for sure.
>> All right, everybody. If you have not
already, be sure to subscribe. And until
next time, my friends, be legendary.
Take care. Peace.
>> If you like this conversation, check out
this episode to learn more. Are we
living in a simulation? And if we are,
if this universe is simply a rendered
environment, then there's no reason to
believe that death is the end. Today's
guest is MIT trained computer scientist,
author, and video game entrepreneur.