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Language: en
why is this moment in American politics
best understood not as right versus left
which is what I think most people think
but rather populist versus The
Establishment the media has changed and
that has led to the thinking changing in
this country and so uh my thesis is that
it was all always about populace versus
establishment can you define those yeah
I can but we never knew it
until uh we got to this New Media era in
the old media era of mainstream media
there was only one way of thinking and
it was in my opinion overwhelming
propaganda and they got you to think
about it in terms of left and right and
then they lied to you about what's left
and right and most importantly they lied
to you about what was moderate or
Centrist that was the greatest illusion
that mainstream media ever did we can
come back to that so in terms of what's
populace and establishment establishment
is the current system that we have so
the politicians the donor class uh
mainstream media the powerful uh and the
elites and populist is anyone who is for
the average guy now everyone will tell
you they're for the average guy right
but their actions show you otherwise so
for a every cable news anchor is for the
elites they're not for the average guy
and I could prove it to you I could
prove it to you in every policy position
they have every framing that they do of
a story uh the way that they report
stories Etc so for example the average
guy thinks that politicians are Crooks
uh and they're right no cable news
anchor thinks politicians are Crooks so
if you ask him about a specific
individual like Trump they might say oh
yeah Trump you know if you get them off
fair and you got them talking about what
they really think maybe they say he's a
crook or he's a liar Etc but partly
because they view him as populist I
don't think he really is but that's how
they view him that's how he portrays
himself and so they think that's an an
I hate that and so okay I can criticize
Trump trump is a polit a rare politician
I can say anything I want about right
but when you get to other politicians
Nancy Pelosi oh no no no no no no no no
no no the no cable news anchor on MSNBC
or CNN would go off on Nancy Pelosi
never gonna happen has never happened so
why because they're The Establishment
they think oh she raised a billion
dollars from donors which the average
guy goes then she owes a lot of donor
ERS a lot of favors that's basically a
billion dollars in bribes everyone at
the New York Times and Washington Post
and Cenna and MSNBC think what a
wonderful States person and legislator
and in fact heard nickname almost for a
long time and it was would appear in
article after article and on The Young
Turks we would show it over and over
again Master legislator Master
legislator it was an
incredible you know overwhelming
propaganda to show her as like this
Angel and Incredibly effective and I was
like what did she ever pass and I
remember I was at a
politicon I asked that question Bob
shroom who ran several of the Democratic
presidential campaigns for Al Gore and
and honestly for almost all the losing
candidates and I like Al Gore but the
other guys were just a nightmare anyway
so he nearly sprung out of his seat on a
panel in front of all these people he's
like how dare you criticize Nancy Pelosi
like that
because that's the establishment mindset
these politicians are demigods the
donors are demigods and that's all they
ever serve they never serve the people
what's the core belief that underwrites
that is it that uh we need an Elite
Class who are smarter that can help
guide those who are less intellectually
fortunate is that the driving thing or
is it just greed or something like that
the answer is both so what they tell
themselves because nobody wakes up in
the morning thinks I'm evil and I'd like
to do evil things right they have to
tell themselves a lie first before they
tell you the lie so the LIE they tell
themselves is what some people call
neoliberalism which is oh of course the
educated Elites know everything and the
masses are barbarians and Ruffians and
we have to guide them along the they
don't know they don't know that you have
to pay more taxes and the rich have to
pay less taxes because it's going to
Trickle all over you later and US
sophisticated people know that we should
have all the money in the power so that
we can help you poor poor uneducated
masses at a later date okay and that's
called neoliberalism that's called The
Establishment it's called you know a lot
of different things but it's the same
idea no matter what label you attach to
it so but they truly believe it they
think oh like the Greeks when the they
had the banks collapsing and and all the
different countries were suffering we
were but Italy and Greece were suffering
the the most and what did they do they
hit them with austerity you Greeks you
were naughty you borrowed too much money
from us now you have to pay us back and
your people have to suffer in order for
us to get our money back and that's the
only way you could rescue your economy
and we're doing this for your own good
so shut up and take it okay and they
really believed it and they thought that
the Greeks were irresponsible to set it
in reality the bankers pushed th those
projects onto them and yes their
politicians said yes but it was part of
this
giant process by which they extract
wealth from all these countries so the
underlying real reason that they believe
what they believe is greed and so here's
how you connect those things it's not
that they're not more educated they are
right you they have plenty of degrees
Etc so when they say hey we understand
some of these complex ideas or or policy
positions a little bit better than the
average guy that's not necessarily wrong
right but the part that the
establishment is missing is that yes but
do you really have other people's best
interest in mind do you really have the
average person's best interest in mind
or are you super educated and super
smart but you're actually driving
towards your own goals and your own
interests which are often times
diametrically opposed to the average
person and I don't think they realize
that they're doing that so a lot of
populists think oh those Elites are evil
no they're in a bubble and in their
bubble they think they're Saints helping
the average guy but they got to help
themselves first right and then it
eventually that trickle down economics
is such a perfect word perfect phrase
because it literally they think well we
get all of the money in power and
eventually maybe it trickles on you
right and they believe that that's how
it should be and so they don't think
they're hurting people but they are
because they actually rigged all the
rules for their own benefit okay so the
establishment the they are the people
who are educated who uh are some mixure
of telling themselves a lie and actually
wanting at least as messaging to
themselves and to others that we want to
help the average person but the policies
that they enact help themselves first
and foremost and what is supposedly
meant to trickle down never really
trickles down cool that's I can wrap my
head around that is what the
establishment is so what is is populism
so populism is appealing to the average
guy and and actually trying to serve the
average guy now unfortunately it has a
history of being co-opted uh by U
usually a demagogue uh who comes in and
says I'm gonna help you guys and then
just helps himself right and so this is
the history of politics throughout the
history of the world and it's so so
frustrating but when populism is done
right it's beautiful and so and that
does happen from time to time and I
would argue that FDR uh did it right in
a lot of respects and everything's
complicated nothing's black and white
FDR did plenty of things that were wrong
as well right but overall on economic
populism he was terrific and that's why
he's beloved and that's why his the
bills that he passed are to this day the
most popular bills in American history
so populism uh says that we shouldn't
first give it to the powerful and the
rich we should actually
give it directly to the in this case the
average American and when we say give it
are we saying give them policies that
make their life immediately better
economically yeah 100% so um an interest
a good example I think is Paid Family
Leave right so uh Paid Family Leave just
say you get roughly there's other
aspects of it but the main core of it is
uh moms get 12 weeks off after they have
a baby so that makes sense the whole
rest of the world has it America doesn't
have it so why is that populace because
it's giving a benefit directly to moms
it doesn't go through any other conduit
it doesn't go to her company and then
maybe out of the goodness of their heart
the company passes it on or doesn't pass
it on a lot of times what Republicans of
years past and still today Trump's a
complicated character not a normal
Republican but normal Republicans would
say no no no give a tax break to her
company and they'll do the right thing
because they're patriotic which is horse
crap that's doesn't mean anything a
company's not a person doesn't have any
emotions it's not patriotic it's a
machine built to maximize profit so no
they're never going to give it to her
unless they think it's to their benefit
to give it to her right so populist say
no no no I'm not going to give more tax
breaks to the corporations or to the
rich I'm just going to give her paid
family leave and she's going to get 12
weeks off and if you don't like it go
pound sand and and populist is not just
in policy those are in rhetoric so I
went to a couple Ivy League schools so
it's not like I don't know how to talk
like the elites do and I happy to take
them on in any intellectual debate that
they like but I talk like a regular
person and that's another thing that
drives the establishment crazy they
think that that's so unsophisticated and
like oh he's talking like an average
American he didn't even use any SAT
words in that sentence they like a great
example so you know that I'm not doing
Hy just hyperbole or theatrics is Adam
Schiff if you ever listen to Adam Schiff
now the senator from California he he's
like a thesaurus and and like the elites
love it and they love Adam she like oh
he's so smart oh he's so great and and
you know he looks out for them a
thousand times before he'll ever look
out for the average person right and and
they think he's sophisticated but in
this era Adam Schiff to the average
person sounds unbearable un bearable and
they're like oh Trump he sounds like a
dard right like what are you talking
about Trump sounds like a normal person
and that's why they like him so a good
example of that is the McDonald's uh
photo op that he did during the campaign
a lot of Democrats were like look at
that he looks ridiculous like he would
do sell french fries you know how bad he
is to his own workers now that's true
he's terrible to his own workers and you
can make that point without doing the
[ __ ] right so no he he looked good
that was a good photo op whe whether you
it's true that he's terrible to his own
workers it's true that he hired
undocumented immigrants it's true that
he's against minimum wage it's true that
he would be against a lot of the
interests of those McDonald's workers
but it was a good photo op why because
it was populist he put on a McDonald's
you know outfit he gave it through the
drive-thru you see what I'm saying
that's this that's the style of populism
and the elite hated and the average
person loves it it's really interesting
so why then does populism become
co-opted so
frequently usually uh people are so
oppressed by whatever establishment is
in charge in whatever country and
whatever time period because these are
phenomenons that have been happening for
timeing Memorial right so and then
someone comes along and says I'm going
to fix all that I'm going to break all
that and I talked to Dan Holloway who uh
has podcast called drinking Bros he's on
the right drinking Bros yeah okay yeah
and and Dan made a great analogy he said
we know Trump's a bull in a china shop
you're not telling us anything new when
you tell us that and we know there's
some things in that china shop he
shouldn't break but we hate the china
shop so much that we're sending him in
on purpose and that's that's populism
that goes in the wrong direction often
times because a lot of things they
shouldn't be broken can get broken in
that process and so if you're a con man
and and I the Right is going to hate
this but my job is to tell you the truth
Donald Trump I used to think Donald
Trump was a unsophisticated con man but
now I see the other con man they're even
more unsophisticated so I now believe
that Donald Trump is a sophisticated con
man interesting and so when a con man
sees this great opportunity this opening
they dive in it especially when people
are hungry for someone to go into that
goddamn china shop and break as many
plates as he possibly can so if if you
don't know Donald Trump AB tested a lot
of his messages was actually clever
thing to do so he went on uh right-wing
talk radio for several years Dan scavino
I think explained this and uh and so he
would test messages he would test a
pro-immigrant message and an
anti-immigrant message because he
doesn't care he doesn't care at all he
used to be a Democrat he was pro-choice
all these positions and he flip-flopped
because he he's not a principal guy he
doesn't care about he just cares about
winning uh for himself more money more
power more Fame so he noticed oh
anti-immigrant test better with the
rightwing all right I'm going
anti-immigrant right and on down the
list so usually a guy like that will
appear and they will gather a lot of
momentum and and then
unfortunately a big percent of the time
they take it in their own interest uh
and not the people's but like I said
there are those magical moments where
you get a populist who actually does the
right thing and that's when you really
have the best scenario give me an
example you said there are sometimes you
gave us FDR does it right um has there
been anyone in recent memory that's
doing it right what would Trump have to
do to do it right like what does that
look like other than I get it like we
need to do things that are good for the
average person um
but is there a principled way to do it
or is it literally just reflect back
what they're telling you they want no no
there's definitely a principal way to do
it here's a example that's a mixed bag
Andrew Jackson so Andrew Jackson was a
real populist arguably maybe the first
populist in American history I'm not a
historian so if that's wrong I'm happy
to get corrected on him but one of the
first that I've certainly read about and
so he for example he invited people to
the White House when he was president
like actual citizens so no Pres
president had done that before I'm not
sure any president has done that since
and I don't mean just as like a tour I
mean oh we're having a party let's
invite everybody in Washington okay so
he was a DieHard populist now Andrew
Jackson's version of populism had
significant downsides as happens right
he was very tough on Native Americans
and he was you know vicious in a lot of
ways in that regard on Race Etc again in
his historical context he was still a
pretty bad figure with even within his
hisorical context but obviously a
different time than it is today right
but he was a populist on economic issues
in some ways that were good uh and so so
that's a populist that's Earnest even
though it has a bad significant downside
and a significant upside I would argue
FDR is a populist that had largely
upside again there's plenty to criticize
internment camps uh Etc right but
obviously enormous accomplishments wins
World War II social security uh uh and
on and on so uh I would argue Lula in
Brazil is a a really really positive
populist I could argue that shine Bal in
in uh Mexico is a really good populist
so so there's a lot of examples of it
going right because I have not been
politically really awake at all until
say the last four years I have begun to
intuitively grope at some of these ideas
without having the words to put to it uh
my audience will have heard me say this
a gazillion times but this sounds like
what I call the dumb voter problem so uh
to use my words to explain what I hear
you saying is uh I think you can
bifurcate Everybody by what they think
should be done with people they consider
dumb voters I understand some people
think I'm the dumb voter uh but what I
think makes somebody an elitist is
somebody who thinks that dumb voters
need to shut up and uh be taken off
social media not be allowed to speak not
create disinformation misinformation
whatever uh trust me we know better and
we're going to take care of this we got
you but they actively view themselves as
knowingly right that other people are
knowingly wrong or at least they know
them to be wrong even if that person
doesn't recognize it themselves and
based on their level of intelligence and
ability to successfully navigate the
world they need those people to not
disrupt The Narrative to let a story be
told about what this all is whether it's
this moment whether what these policies
mean uh and that the other people need
to just be quiet versus and I will very
much put myself in this Camp wherever
this means I fall I don't trust myself
and I don't think anybody should trust
themselves like that so all I'm going to
do is say look treat me like an AI I'm
going to give you a strong sincere take
I'm not going to pretend I don't believe
what I believe so I'm going to say the
things that I believe with the level of
aggression that I feel inside but I
don't want people to just go oh Tom said
it and therefore I'm going to believe it
I want people to say okay I'm going to
need a bunch of people like that to give
me a view on this thing that we call
truth that none of us can see clearly
and based on these sincere very firm
takes I then am going to make up my own
mind about what this thing is and you
can call it wisdom of the crowd or
whatever you want but I think my view
you have to let even the people that you
think are dumb and uneducated have their
voice say whatever they believe to be
true uh and then and only then by
battling those ideas out in public can
we as a very large Collective of people
begin to move in a direction that we
think is most
advantageous um does that seem in line
with what you're saying or are we saying
very different things uh I only agree
with you 100% if that's all okay yeah as
so that's exactly right and so I
realized as you were talking though that
that's part of the friction that exists
at for me uh in in terms of the of being
on the left and in the Democratic party
and as we do The Young Turks that
friction has uh been president for a
long time so what do I mean by that my
policies are on the left and you know we
want to talk about populist the nearly
perfect populist In Our Lifetime is
Bernie Sanders so $50 wage the money
goes straight to You Paid Family Leave
it goes straight to you universal
healthcare you get the health care
straight to you right all for the
average guy Etc so I'm on the left but
the problem is the Democratic party is
filled with voters in that first bucket
that you described that's this
information I know better than you I'm
more educated than you you should shut
up and you shouldn't be allowed to say
that and I should get to say this and
Etc and a lot of policing of language
and behavior and and and and that leads
to a super toxic and damaging and
counterproductive political culture
because what they're all what they're
doing constantly even though they don't
realize it is they're talking down to
their voters like you don't know I know
and you have an obligation to vote for
me you'll see whenever a Democrat loses
they almost always blame the voters so
it interesting yeah that happened in
this election too very first thing and
we know it's coming so The Young Turks
were ready and we're like here we go
roll the tape right and they said oh
Latino men they were sexist and that's
why they didn't vote for Comm Harris I'm
like um Mexico is a female president so
I'm pretty sure that that wasn't the
real reason and by the way Latino men
voted for Hillary Clinton by 31 Point
margin whoa they didn't get magically
sexist in eight years right you didn't
deliver for them it's not their fault
it's your fault but a democratic ician
never sees it that way because of the
mindset that you just described they
think that they definitely know better
and that their voters owe them their
vote and that is a terrible political
mindset and that's why they just lost
the popular vote even though they have
every advantage in this country they
have a demographic Advantage they have
an infrastructure Advantage now they
have a money Advantage they have a media
advantage and they blew all of that
because they have this imperious
unbearable attitude that they owed power
and that everyone must listen to them by
the way I think the Republicans used to
be like that in the past and I'm really
upset that the Democratic party has gone
more in that direction right so does
that happen whenever you get a
preponderance of establishment
Republicans or establishment Democrats
exactly exactly okay so that's really
interesting um so who do you have more
in common with populist Republican or or
a establishment Democrat if you talk
about policy I'll probably wind up
having more agreement with the
establishment Democrat if you talk about
um
attitude
um I like way of thinking ideology
philosoph life philosophy probably
populist right so but what's perfect for
me is populist left and that was the
main battle for the last eight years
within Democratic party Bernie the
populist Wing versus Hillary Biden KLA
Harris Etc The Establishment Wing So
Bernie has all the actual leftwing
policies and Biden's like oh I'll do 10%
of them if you push me really hard and
if you beg and plead but he doesn't
really want to do them and I can give
you a lot of examples of policies he
chose not to do because he never
believed in them he's from the corporate
establishment Wing so that's the battle
we've been having inside the Democratic
party so sometimes people will hear me
criticize Democratic politicians go oh
you must be on the right oh you must be
a trump supporter or you must be this no
remember the battle we've been having
this entire time our side of the party
has to win if we don't win we're going
to have these unbearable guys lose
election after election after election
so so you can sense the loathing that I
have for Democratic establishment
politicians but unfortunately we have
what I I now call called binary brain in
this country so our media has taught us
you must either agree 100% with one side
or 0% and there's no nuance and they
break left right that's the left right
that's right we'll get back to the show
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Hillary Clinton the most establishment
politician of our lifetimes you have to
agree with 100% of what she says
otherwise you support Donald Trump but I
I don't agree that we should give
everything to the and powerful and then
have it trickling I don't agree with
that I even though she's pretending to
be on the left I don't even think she's
on the left I think she's a right-wing
establishment Democrat right Democrat
used to mean left-wing but I I wrote in
my book Justice is coming about how the
Supreme Court decisions allowed an
avalanche of money to come in and the
Democratic party started realizing oh
the Republicans aren't the only ones who
could take money from corporations we
can take money from corporations and
they let that money completely and
utterly corrupt them and so that's why I
fight so hard against those guys but
it's got to be someone like Bernie that
wins because Bernie's Earnest and
actually cares about the average person
and I believe the leftwing policies are
correct so but when anybody that hears
this conversation not anybody but a lot
of people who hear this conversation
will go oh Jen just said that he has
some things more in common with right
populist than Democratic politicians we
know it he's a right-winger he's a trump
supporter he's Maga because of binary
brain they can't get into a simple
conversation about there are two
different political spectrums Left Right
populist establishment so I am Center
left but I am very populist and and it's
I get it it's a New Concept to a lot of
people but we got to get better we got
to get better otherwise we're never
going to fix the Democratic party and in
my opinion demagogues like Trump will
just take what is basically an empty
open field he has no competition because
his real competition was Bernie and the
Democrats killed him off in the
primaries so you give me any populist I
don't even care if they're a knucklehead
I don't care if they're not they're not
Earnest just political strategy why that
person will beat an establishment
politician every time especially in this
era in the old S no way why mainstream
media would have crushed the populists
but mainstream media has lost power so
now because of online media populists
can actually rise up so the minute we
have a Bernie like figure on the left
they're going to Landslide everyone so
because in the old days the only reason
Bernie lost was because every cable news
anchor every reporter at the New York
Times every reporter at the Washington
Post they despise Bernie and they don't
even though wait people say wait I don't
get it mainstream media is on the seems
to be on the left or supports the
Democrats what do you mean they hate
Bernie but you see what they say and you
read what they write and you go wow they
do hate Bernie why do they hate Bernie
even though he's on the left because
he's a populist and their establishment
that's why they hate Bernie and the
mainstream media has killed every
populist left-wing figures career they
are our biggest opponent and they are a
propaganda machine that enforces
corporate rule on the rest of us this is
really interesting man so I am always
looking for what is the lens in the
world that gives me the highest
predictive validity uh you're the first
person that I've heard talk about this
so uh the world felt very naturally
divided left right so I'll definitely
want to hear your breakdown of where you
think those ideas came from but before
we go to that let me ask you so had it
been a uh Bernie versus Trump so now
we've got a Democrat populist versus a
republican populist who would the media
have gotten behind Trump really yeah and
and in fact it's not a question it
already happened why so in 2016 Trump
got several billion dollars in free
media do you know how much ABC News
talked about Bernie Sanders in the year
2015 as he went from about 2% to 48% one
of the most miracul ulous political
ascents in American history ABC News
talked about him for 7 Seconds that's a
literal number that's a literal number
okay so because was he up against
Hillary at that point yes but isn't that
why they were silent because it's like
ah we don't want a populace when we can
have an establishment Democrat 100% but
they didn't do that for Trump they gave
him T billions of free media two reason
three reasons number one he's a
celebrity and they're obsessed with
celebrities they're like ah celebrity
right most importantly number two they
didn't take him seriously they thought
oh it's a clown we'll get good ratings
but he's obviously not going to win they
were positive he wasn't going to win I I
said he would win the Republican primary
in October of 2015 Jesus I was like he's
unelectable literally up until up I told
my team go home it's not possible that
this guy can get elected yeah
ABC's this week with Stephanopoulos
right after Hillary Clinton's uh DNC
where she then at that point she had
about a 10-point lead uh the convention
had just ended they had us predict who
was going to win I was the only one on
the panel that predicted that Trump
would win and the rest of the panel
laughed out loud and I said we're in a
populist era and you guys aren't getting
it and you can't see straight because
you are the establishment and so and
they like that's this crazy guy he
thinks that CL Trump's gonna win no he's
giving us great ratings but it's got no
downside because he's not really going
to win but there's a third reason the
third reason is what did Trump do when
he got in
charge for in the beginning and for most
of his time he might have said crazy
things he might have done crazy things
but at the end of the day his one major
policy accomplishment was massive
corporate tax cuts so he wasn't a real
threat later they perceived him to be a
threat in that he only cared about
himself when a politician in that
position is supposed to be a servant of
the donor class they're like this son of
a [ __ ] I probably hesitated for a
second this son of a [ __ ] is taking all
the money for himself when he's supposed
to take the money and give it to us
right again they don't think that way
consciously because you and the one
thing I think you say said a little
wrong on the what I said was 100% right
is you said dumb voter but it actually
isn't Dumb voter it's all about bubbles
everybody's in their own bubble and they
cannot see straight it's not because
they're dumb it's because they think
that their worldview is the only
worldview and so that's what's creating
a lot of these problems so the
establishment let Trump basically win
with all that free media because they
thought it was impossible they thought
it was good for their ratings and they
knew he was going to deliver for the
rich cuz he's Rich Bernie was a much
bigger problem because they knew he was
not going to deliver for the rich he was
going to deliver for the average guy and
viscerally they hated that it like I
when I interact with people in
mainstream media and I say the things
that I say that supports Bernie that's
populist left I can see that the hair on
their neck Rising like you you you can't
actually physically literally see it but
you see it in their reaction they start
to like do this they get tense they get
and then their answers are much sharper
aggressive and they and and they feel
like who are you to say these things
about us and I can give you a great
example you could even see it online I
gave a speech in Washington DC to the to
the Press Club National Press Club okay
so I go there and I give a speech about
populism and establishment media and
what they're doing wrong
and poor that they hate it and and so
the they don't like to be critiqued
what's the driving thing the P the
president of the national Press Club
then got up and said you know we work
really hard I didn't say you didn't work
hard I said that you're seeing it wrong
right they take personal offense at the
idea that they are not objective and the
reality is they're not within a million
miles of objective and I could prove it
I mean it's not close so for example
they say what do you mean we're
objective we're neutral wait hold on how
is neutral objective what if you have an
idea on who's going to win the AFC
Championship game and I have an idea on
who's going to win the AFC Championship
game and you say the Bengals are going
to win and I say the Browns are going to
win but neither one is going to win
because neither one of them are in the
game right so mainstream media goes oh
the correct answer is between the Browns
and the
Bengals no the neutral position between
two points is not necessarily correct at
all that's just the neutral position
that is not the objectively correct
position
so there's many different tricks that I
could explain of what mainstream media
does and again they don't know they're
doing it guys if you're out watching
like don't think they're evil and
they're
going we will now trick the American
people and a lot of the reporters aren't
that rich but they're in a group think
and they don't realize it and so like
whenever they talk about a bill a piece
of legislation right what is the number
one factor that drives what's going to
be in that bill I I'll tell you it's
money right it's uh the the lobbyists
aren't spending literally billions of
dollars for their health for General
charity right they're doing it to affect
what's in the bill does it work
absolutely I can show you dozens maybe
hundreds of examples they put pressure
on the bill gets changed the Bill's in
favor of the corporations and not the
people over and over and over again not
negotiating drug prices is the most
insane thing anyone's ever heard it's
the most anti-free Market anti capist
thing anybody's everever heard uh but
everybody treats it as perfectly normal
but much more importantly in the
articles about the legislation they
never mention the money they go oh the
Beloved Senator Lindsey Graham I know
they don't say beloved but but it's in
the framing they they kind of frame it
that way uh The Honorable gentleman from
uh South Carolina thinks this The
Honorable gentle lady from Connecticut
thinks that and they had this debate and
oh it looks like the Republicans won the
debate there was no debate all there was
is
an exchange of checks the donors give
the checks to both sets of politicians
and they get what we they want and we
get screwed and if you work at the New
York Times and you don't know that
that's embarrassing and to the point of
almost humiliating but none of them know
it it's hard to believe that they don't
know it uh I think this may be one of
the things that we see differently which
is that um I don't believe God I don't
want to believe that people can blind
themselves that completely that's a
level of lack of self-awareness that I
would find
terrifying um but Tom I can prove it to
you sorry to interrupt no please
so it's again it's not binary does the
New York Times sometimes do great
reporting absolutely can I show you
hundreds of great investigative stories
Etc that they did yes right so when I
criticize the New York Times as an
example they get emotional and they and
I get it you know I'm criticizing the
place you work and the place that you
might love and believe in ETC right uh
and they go what do you mean look at
this great story we did on this or that
the other thing but those are great
stories but when you're doing your
political analysis you could just look
up in the New York Times all the times
that they talked about legislation and
how often did they say the most the
controlling Factor was donor money or
lobbyist money the answer is near zero
how often was it actually donor money
and lobbyist money that was the
controlling Factor nearly 100% of the
time so if you create a theater for
people and pretend that these political
actors and they're literally actors are
having an ideological debate and one
side won the debate Etc you have greatly
misled your audience your viewers your
readers so but they don't know that and
and so I'll have interactions with a
reporter and I'll say you know it's the
money that controls yada yada right and
they'll say yes yes I understand that
and and I and between you and me I agree
with you so it's not like they're not
aware of the concept right but money in
politics is a different beat that's not
my beat so my editor told me to focus on
this okay but money in politics is in
all the Beats if you cover politics
money in politics is everything but the
editors say no no no no no no no no
that's a tiny campaign Finance reform
thing no one really cares about it it's
a process issue we so we're not going to
emphasize it that I get what the but
that all feels like theater to me to
your point about their actors that does
not feel like people honestly assessing
the problem this feels like people that
don't want to pull at that thread
because they know that motives are going
to be swayed by that um let's take what
you and I do so you and I both have to
make decisions routinely about whether
we're going to curb the things that we
say based on
advertisers uh uh speaking for myself
I'm fortunate that I could sell fund
this for a very long time without
Advertiser money so I'm never going to
change what I believe to be true based
on an Advertiser but I have lost
advertisers um so I certainly understand
how advertising dollars can get people
to well maybe I just won't talk about
that thing uh because I know advertisers
are going to be a little bit weird about
it so even that I see how it begins to
nudge people what what I literally
refuse to believe is that they're not
aware that that is happening they may
want to think that they let it influence
them very little or something like that
but the reason that guy can say to you
yeah yeah yeah I know it's a problem
it's just not my beat is because there's
no way that they can trick themselves
into thinking that the donor money
doesn't actually have influence even if
they go online and say now admittedly
I'm just projecting I'm mind reading but
I can't fathom a world in which that is
that is a level of complete and total
blindness I think there emotional
reaction is because part of them knows
that that's the one line you can't cross
and they may have a mental gyration
about why it's not immoral to do but
that they're unaware of it I just can't
wrap my head around that so they are uh
but let's unaware so let's talk about
who they are though so when you talk
about a junior repor of the New York
Times they're younger they G they didn't
grow up with television they grew up in
online media so they're way more aware
than reporter would have been 20 years
ago 30 years ago when they're just
getting brainwashed by mainstream media
there is no money in politics it never
affects anyone these politicians are
honest they're never affected by the
money but the senior reporters and the
senior editors that's the most important
part and and remember the who's the most
important the one above them is the
publisher right and the publisher hires
the editor the editor hires the other
editors they hire the senior reporters
and it all flows down from that mindset
of
it's an outrage to think that these
politicians are Crooks if I was here
with a senior New York Times editor and
he was sitting right here with us and we
told them you know the you know right
the politicians are Cooks they they take
money from the donors and they do
whatever the donors tell them he would
be outraged by that idea he would think
that we're radicals and we're weirdo you
know conspiracy theorists I've literally
had reporters tell me are you saying
that the politicians are voting based on
the millions of dollars that they got
that sounds like a conspiracy theory I
was like are you insane the conspiracy
theory is that they are not affected by
millions of dollars right no agreed have
you seen A Few Good Men yes okay
admittedly I'm simply building a mental
model I don't know any of these people
and so of course I could be wrong that
caveat aside you could peel my soul open
and see that I actually believe what I'm
about to say that uh all of these
politicians make a lot more sense to me
if they are Colonel Jessup who has a
belief in his soul that we just can't
handle the truth and you need people
like me to protect you and so yes I'm
going to take donor money because that's
how this game works but I am doing it
for you and if you don't have people
like me standing between you and China
you and a world that wants to see you
destroyed uh you're a fool it has to be
me you want these people giving us money
and you have to know that I'm moral I'm
not going to do things that aren't in
your best interest so yes I take money
and yes I do the right thing but they're
not fools they know what they're doing
and I really believe if you crack them
open that's what you're going to see I
don't buy for a [ __ ] second that
Hillary Clinton isn't at that Colonel
Jessup level where she's like she may
believe that she's truly doing it all
for the little people but holy hell
there's no way she's like oh I'm not
influenced by this oh no way I don't buy
it like yeah uh I so again it requires
Nuance so here's a good example of what
the model you're talking about I think
that Dick Cheney is Colonel Jessup and I
lo Dick Cheney right and so apparently
everybody in the country outside of KLA
Harris does and it was a shocking turn
of events when they were celebrating
that yes I yeah I mean God Democratic
establishment politicians are so stupid
like there's I I I'm not supposed to
call them stupid I just told you not to
call them stupid right they're in their
bubble but that bubble is so dumb right
how Dick Cheney pulls at
133% what part of that is complicated
and they're like no we're going to get
the Republicans in the suburbs but you
said that in 2016 and Hillary Clinton
only got 7% of the Republican vote after
you spent all of your money chasing
after Republicans you were never going
to get and then you did it again in 2020
and Biden only got 6% of the Republican
vote you did it again in 2024 and K
Harris only got 5% of the Republican
vote they are impervious to facts and
reason and logic because they're so
diluted by their own bubbles so Dick
Cheney but to go back to your Colonel
Jessup example probably thought I don't
know which of these theories he believed
in but peak oil or something along those
lines we need boots on the ground in the
Middle East because oil is such an
important uh natural resource that we
need to be able to control it if we have
unfriendly governments that can get
together uh and what if they get off of
the dollar the is even more important
than oil so yeah I know that they don't
have weapons of mass destruction I know
they not only that did they not do 911
that they're mortal enemies of al- Qaeda
it's not like Dick Cheney doesn't know
that he definitely knows that right and
he made a decision this is my inference
based on overwhelming evidence that I've
seen that yeah I'm going to lie to the
American people because they need me on
that wall right so he got himself to
believe he's the great hero and savior
of America and if they we hadn't gone
into Iraq blah blah blah right
but then when you talk about other
politicians they're not all like that
like Ted Cruz is a slime ball and he
knows he's a slimeball he knows that
there he's not going to eventually help
the American people he couldn't give a
rat's ass about the American people I
give you a and and again this is not
just oh I don't like Republicans or I
don't like the right no there this is
all based on facts so we've been
covering news and politics for over two
decades now so all of these stories
accumulated so on Ted Cruz if you
remember he did not endorse Donald Trump
in the 2016 Republican convention he
gave a speech and never endorsed Trump
and that was a big controversy and
they're like whoa because they were the
two main competitors at the end and and
if you remember Donald Trump had
insulted his wife and basically
insinuated that she was ugly and that
his uh father killed JFK I mean oh very
trumpan yeah yeah it's enormously
trumpan exactly so Ted Cruz out of
principal decided that he was going to
endorse Trump and then like two weeks
later I mean instantly I don't even know
if it took two weeks he's phone banking
for Donald Trump and he's on television
saying Donald Trump is the greatest and
we have to elect Donald Trump and Donald
Trump is the best so what the hell
happened well I read what happened what
happened was after the speech he goes up
to the uh Suites where all the donors
are and he goes to his main donor the
Mercers Robert and Rebecca Mercer they
have given him at at that point in that
primary loan $13
million what people don't realize is Ted
Cruz is not a politician he's a servant
he's a servant of the Mercers so he goes
up to their Suites suite and they slam
the door in his face and he's Shell
Shocked by it and they say to him look
we put the money into you in the primary
that we invested in you and it didn't
work out Trump W now Trump is going to
give us the corporate tax cuts we wanted
so now we're backing Trump
so shut up and back Trump and then once
he got his orders he immediately turned
around and said oh I love Donald Trump
Donald Trump is the best Etc be he
doesn't think he's Colonel Jessup he
doesn't think that you need him on that
wall he thinks oh money money oh I'm
dead Cruz he's a total freaking slime
ball he knows he's got to go lick the
ass of Robert Mercer and so he goes and
licks that ass it's not to be on a wall
it's not to protect any want is not to
do anything but look out for his own
self-interest and as lome as Dick Cheney
is and as terrible as his actions were
and as much as the it cost the country I
would argue that he had a better intent
than somebody like Ted Cruz who only
cares about himself and doesn't even
have any delusions of being Colonel
Jessie you see what I'm saying I do I
don't know anything about Ted Cruz so I
don't have a read on that but um now but
you could take Ted Cruz and subst I mean
98% of politicians are like Ted Cruz Ted
Cruz is just the most flamboy one of the
most flamboyant of them help me
understand the left versus right split
what causes
that I mean partly it's a matter of
genuine policy disagreements and um and
I actually think it's partly a matter of
nature uh that you're probably born
conservative or or born um um
Progressive or much detail on that as
you can I find that very compelling and
then but there's also a cultural element
too um so I'll start uh all the way in
the beginning I I think that um we have
hardware and software in our brains so
our Hardware is our
DNA so that's hardwired in and there's
nothing you could do about about that
your brain is structured in a certain
way you have certain proclivities Etc
then our software is all of our cultural
influences that uh inform us educate us
oftentimes deceive us um and so what are
the cultural influences uh your
community your family your friends
family and friends are very different
very different influences right and and
very very importantly media and so so
now let's talk about software first and
I come back to the hardware in software
well you have the red states where you
have a lot more conservatives or
Republicans and you have the blue states
where you have a lot more people on the
left part of that is
is doesn't have to do with software if
you are if your Hardware says no change
you're going to stay in your hometown
you're not going to go to the coast if
your Hardware says you like change or
you need change you go to California you
go to New York so the left starts to go
to the coast more because they're more
in favor of change but the main part is
in California you have media you have
culture that is very left wi in Alabama
you have Community culture family that
is very right-wing and so that's your
software and so when you're in a room
where everyone thinks the same thing you
know that uh psychology test where they
have a series of lines and they ask you
which one is the uh tallest line the
longest line and what you don't know is
that they told everyone else in the room
to pick the second tallest one as the
tallest one and then they see how many
people defy the Crow and pick the actual
longest line and the number is very
small it's terrifying yeah because and
so when you're in Alabama or you're in
Los Angeles you have to be super strong
to get past the cultural influence the
software that you're imbued with every
day as these people around you all say
well of course the Republicans are right
of course the right-wing is right or if
you're in La of course the Democrats are
right of course the Liberals are right
oh you don't believe that are you a
trump supporter and they look at at you
like you're evil and Etc so in La you're
worried about being labeled a trump
supporter in Alabama are you a liberal
do you dress up like a girl in the
middle of the night no no no no I don't
I don't I'm a republican I'm rightwing
so that software is super powerful let
alone when you get to the media level
where it's on steroids so what's your
Hardware Hardware is fre so what I tell
my friends on the left is the rightwing
are not bad guys sometimes they'll react
to us in a way that you go well they
sound like bad guys I mean we talking
about H1B visas and some of these guys
are saying don't let the goddamn Indians
in they're they're not real Americans
that's a bad guy thing to say right and
that's attacking me Etc so how can you
say that they're not bad guys well first
of all so of course some of them are
right we're all and that's a different
conversation but really it's not that
the main part of it is they circle the
wagons cons servers circle the wagons so
they believe in stability they believe
not as much change nice and easy and we
look out for our own so they're terrific
to their family they're terrific to
their Community their Church Etc but if
they perceive you as outside their
wagons then that's bad news their guard
is up and they view you as the others
they're going to fight you they're going
to fight you
2,000% well a lot of us are outside
their wagons whereas for progressives
people on the left they're more open to
change just structurally like their DNA
their brain is more open to change so
they're like oh I don't have to stick
with tradition and culture and what
Society tells me to do uh then the
second part of it is there our wagons
are much larger so to me whether you're
Indian or you're white guy from Alabama
or you're a martian I don't really care
to me I mean Marsh is not a great
example because to me if you're human
you're human and two and and a lot of
sometimes Republicans will challenge me
are you saying that you care about this
is as much about the people in
Bangladesh as you do about
Americans yeah I do there now if I'm
running America I'm going to care more
about Americans right and as a political
figure in America I got to look out for
American citizens first right but it
doesn't mean I hate the people of
Bangladesh and it doesn't mean I think
that they're any less than us I think
they're just as human as we are and just
they should have the same rights same
everything now if you ever rightwing
you're in the room he's not going to
want to be racist and tell you oh yeah
yeah the people of Bangladesh are
inferior I don't give a [ __ ] about him
but really he doesn't give a [ __ ] about
him and a lot of them to be fair to them
are very honest and they'll tell you
that they like that's their goddamn
problem in fact Trump said it the other
day and I think he doesn't really mean
but they asked him about the ceasefire
in Gaza and you know will the ceasefire
last Etc and he said ah it's their War
not our war that's a very right-wing
mindset that's their business not our
business I circled my wagons and that's
why he says America first that's why
he's always talking about we're going to
deliver for his base first before he
delivers for anyone else hey if you
didn't vote for me I don't care about
you and I might not give you disaster
relief but if they tell them oh in
Orange County they voted for you okay
then Orange County's fine that's good
because Orange County is inside his
wagons La is not inside his wagons right
but for Progressive that's such an
anathema like if you said to someone
who's truly on the left hey they got hit
with a tornado in Alabama uh but they
didn't vote for us and they and they
don't like us and should we give them
disaster relief any real leftist would
say of course they wouldn't even
understand the question because the guy
in Alabama is inside our
wagons it's interesting the tribal
nature of it all makes that feel not
necessarily true I've seen uh when
people tribe up there is an innate part
of our Hardware that I think drives
people to say not on my team and uh
there was a lot of like when BLM and
everything first kicked off there was
like Hey you either get on board with
this or let it burn uh so I think people
tribe up on both sides but let me lay
out my um Hardware software because on
that we're really similar but I don't
know if we draw the same conclusion we
might I'm just not sure yet so I look at
the left and the right without the new
Nuance that you've now given me about
establishment versus popular I think is
important and is very much I'm updating
my thinking as you've presented that uh
but I'd come into it always okay the
left and the right need to exist I um
it's the tension between the two that
make us function well and just as
marrying somebody who views the world
different than me that's actually made
my life better across a whole host of
dimensions and I learned very early on I
don't want to make my wife think like me
and my wife shouldn't want to make me
think like her it's in this ability to
hold Dynamic tension where we're able to
navigate well and so think of a kite and
a string right so the string without it
the kite just flies off into nothing
crashes um and the string without a kite
obviously just lays on the ground so
it's the dynamic tension that allows it
to stay Al flat so from an evolutionary
standpoint you've got uh evolution is
trying to make sure that you have kids
that survive long enough to have kids
that have kids right so okay so now I've
got to get us to um survive in an
environment where there's no
Refrigeration this is one very simple
it's not the only thing there's no
Refrigeration so if we go on a hunt and
I kill more than I can eat I'm either
going to let it rot or I can store those
calories on your body and so now I'm
like hey you're part of my tribe eats
some of this I want you to have it and
so in US is this desire to help people
so we'll call that the left there's this
compassion of like nobody left behind I
want to make sure that I serve other
people because it helps the cohesion of
the group it helps me survive later when
it's going to be my turn and so this
reciprocity from an evolutionary impulse
standpoint is very advantageous the
catch is that if you're always looking
out for other people then you get what's
known as the free writer problem and so
that's where the Right comes in and the
right says okay hold on a second we need
personal responsibility we need people
that um they're going to pull their own
weight and so now if you get just the
right it's going to devolve into madness
everybody's looking out for themselves
there's no group cohesion if you get
just the left then you get this Free
Rider what I call the Barnacle problem
and if you've ever seen a turtle get
covered in Barnacles it just sinks and
it dies so you need the tension between
the two and if you only had one they're
both going to break off into pathology
regardless of what side you're on it it
just becomes uh nonsensical and so um I
learned this actually in business
because I had these two guys I respected
a lot one was the CEO type one was the
COO type and they just were cruel to
each other and I was always like why
what what's happening and they both
thought the other person was an idiot
and I was like you guys are two of the
smartest people I've ever met but you
have different roles in this company and
once you understand that you want that
Dynamic tension you want to think
differently you want to view these
things differently and you find a path
that works ultimately for the goal that
you guys agree on I won't drag us into
that fractal right now but the dynamic
tension serves everybody so when I look
at the left right divide um
in myself even I'm trying to remind
myself I don't want people to I don't
want everyone to think like I think I'm
very happy to have other people who
think like I think but I would not want
that to be the only way because we need
that balance um so to me and I think to
you that's an echo of evolution uh
definitely Grant you there's a software
layer as well that can be extremely
compelling uh but good luck fighting
against somebody's like if they are like
pushed hard to one way or the other even
with all the software in the world
you're probably going to have a hard
time pulling them too far um but that's
how I look at it so I never respond well
to the vilification of the other side
even if I don't agree with their policy
because I'm like the one thing I know
better than to do is to trust myself so
I want my voice to be heard I'm going to
lay my most compelling arguments but
then I want everybody and I I do really
have a hard time explaining this idea to
people even people I consider dumb or
other people consider dumb because I
don't trust my assessment uh they all
should have a voice and now it gets put
before the people and whatever people
decide we do
um I won't fractal on direct democracy
but the comment section should know that
yes I'm aware of the problems of direct
democracy but we we'll set that aside
for now um how does that land am I
missing something obvious we'll get back
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the show
no no I I I think I totally agree so let
let me um break it down one by one um
what you're describing is balance I
describe the same balance in my book
just coming and I say look I'm coming at
this from a leftwing perspective but
here's why we need the rightwing uh
because you can't steer the Ship Without
both sides and and there's a whole host
of reasons why you need the rightwing uh
but I give you the most the easiest one
to understand um
Winston Churchill was right-wing and he
was brutal to India and and not a great
guy overall at all but during World War
II you needed someone to make hard
decisions and to sacrifice some troops
knowing that they're going to die and
you needed that kind of guy to take
charge and go okay now let's go kick
their asses right and so I respect that
and there's a time for that but if all
you do is let's go kick the ass of
everyone whether it's right or wrong
whether they're Nazis or poor innocent
Indian villagers that's not the right
way to go but sometimes you're not
subjugating Indian villagers you're
fighting Nazis right it doesn't mean a
left Winger Can't FDR was a left Wier
and he beat the Nazis too Stalin was
definitely a left Winger and he beat the
Nazis too but at that point but you
could argue well s like have a
conversation about whether Stalin is
really right-wing or leftwing because
he's a dictator blah blah blah leaving
all of that aside and and
so and I can give you a dozen other
examples so I totally agree with you
that we need the balance but that
doesn't mean that both sides are always
right no one side can definitely be
wrong and dramatically wrong at
different times and it's not just the
right-wing I mean the Communists
eventually devolved into Stalin Etc and
they were and Ma and they were massively
wrong right so but when you look at
American history so your point about
tribalism is also definitely correct in
my opinion and so well we had a
right-wing tribe that formed in the
South that said that and so whenever I
bring up history the rightwing instantly
catches feelings this is not about you
you didn't do it your family didn't do
it just calm down for a second and let
me say the statement because I know
they're already reacting the minute you
say the South you better not say
Southern tradition is about peach
cobbler it's not about slavery come on
guys come on of course it was about
slavery of course it was about slavery
right and what was slavery it was
vicious and it was saying your tribe is
worthless your tribe is furniture and
your babies are people is a commodity
like a purse that I'm going to sell so
and white people are awesome and
Superior and we don't have to work you
have to work for us and get nothing okay
so okay now I'm giving you a super
extreme example and by the way slavery
wasn't just in America it was all across
the world and different races did it so
again don't catch feelings it's just an
example so but there were tribes there
and yes that tribe happened to be
right-wing and is still right-wing and
so that tribe was wrong it was
fundamentally morally wrong so just
because you need the left and the right
doesn't mean they're equally right at
all times in all circumstances in
fact a lot of times the left is Right
sometimes the right is right and that's
how you steer the ship not by being
right at the same time but being right
at different times right so and I hear
what you're saying about the
tribalism this days these days and I
think that it has gotten worse and I
think it is driven by media and I think
it's beginning to be driven by the
algorithms uh which lead to audience
capture uh which then says if you
deviate a little bit from what your a
audience wants the algorithm is going to
punish you and that creates an enormous
incentive to say oh yes yes yes of
course Trump is right about everything
of course Biden is Young and dynamic and
totally right about everything he's the
best candidate in the whole world he's
35 years old of course he is of course
he is I'll tell you whatever the [ __ ]
you want to hear right and what does
that do tribalism tribalism tribalism
and that tribalism now especially these
days is you must hate the other side if
you don't hate the other side you're not
one of us and I loathe that I can't
stand that and that's what's destroying
the
country yeah there is no doubt about
that the algorithms are driving a lot of
um it exacerbates the situation greatly
anybody that runs the kind of media
companies that we run have to be very
cognizant of audience capture that is
for sure um given the fascinating moment
that we're in with social media with um
somebody like Trump being able to
leverage a very watchable personality
love him or hate him he gets eyeballs um
how do you think of trump what does he
represent In This Moment um I know
you've been talking about hey if uh I
could get a meeting with Trump I would
take it yeah and that hasn't exactly
made you popular on your side how do you
think about Trump why would you take a
meeting with him yeah look we're crazy
we we challenge our own side all the
time algorithm or not uh you know the we
in this is the young tur yeah Young
Turks tyt uh Young Turks is the flagship
show live every day 6:00 to 8 p.m.
Eastern on YouTube and all the other
platforms tyt is the network and the
network has many channels many uh shows
many hosts dozens of hosts so a Young
Turks is just a flagship but so as a
company and and as the flagship show we
often challenge our own side I remember
we lost a lot of subscribers when I
started challenging Obama from the left
and I we fought so hard uh to get Obama
elected against Hillary Clinton in the
primary at first and then against John
McCain in the general election so our
audience is filled to the rim with
people who really love and support Obama
and then I started to say yeah I like a
lot of what he's doing but guys I got to
tell you Drilling in the Gulf is not a
leftwing position it's not a good idea
and it's bad for the environment etc etc
and then the gulf explodes right so but
before the Gul BP disaster in the Gulf I
just give that as one of dozens of
examples again where I challenged Obama
from the left and then I wound up having
problems with that at MSNBC when I
hosted there and and we lost uh viewers
we lost paying subscribers but then
eventually people come back and they
come back in even larger numbers because
they see oh they were right they weren't
trying they weren't against our tribe
they were actually get trying to get our
tribe to do the right things and trying
to get our leaders to actually serve us
instead of serving other interests right
so that's the nature of this uh game and
so I get it and every time we we defy
our audience a little bit then what
happens is the leeches come in and you
know and they're like oh great we'll
pretend to be more pure than them and
we'll be Thoughtless and Mindless and
we'll say Trump is 100% evil will never
do anything good and he's a Nazi and a
racist and haha he didn't call him a
Nazi that's it he's he loves Trump right
so what what's the reality the reality
is and here I am I'm going to upset both
sides again Trump generally speaking con
man and to me a very obvious one but I'm
not in the bub in the right-wing bubbles
right and so does that mean that he
everything he does is bad no not
necessarily you have to judge every
single thing by its own merits
so um oh he did Criminal Justice Reform
he did Criminal Justice Reform more than
the Democrats did did mainstream media
give him credit for that not really you
they almost never talked about it and
but I Anna and I were like that bill was
pretty good it was kind of leftwing
right but these days if you say a bill
that Trump passed is good even if it
really is leftwing people say Nazi right
racist wait hold on but he he passed a
bill that we would want democratic
presidents to pass right so now but then
he passed corporate tax C for the rich
and for corporations and generally
supported corporate rule deregulation
they say oh it's Freedom Lewis Powell in
his famous Powell memo 1971 made that up
for the Chamber of Commerce he's like oh
when we want
deregulation and which for our own
businesses so we can take advantage of
people we should call that freedom and
so all the way to today Trump's like oh
freedom I deregulated the oil industry
so they could take all the oil not share
any of the money with you create climate
change that's going to destroy your
house in a hurricane put that cost on to
you take $30 billion in subsidies take
all the money all of the advantages and
we'll call that freedom that's not
Freedom that's [ __ ] okay regulation
is another word for Law and if you
believe in the rule of law you should
believe in regulation but that doesn't
mean that all regulation is good the
question is how much regulation you can
get carried away and have way too much
regulation you could have way too little
regulation so we have these nonsensical
conversations I mean I'm so tired of it
even not only in cable news but even in
the New York Times that's supposed to be
sophisticated intellectual they'll have
these garbage conversations about are
you Pro or
anti-regulation that doesn't make any
sense what regulation are we talking
about if the regulation is don't murder
innocent people then I'm pro- regulation
if the regulation is I'm going to come
take your half your house for some
[ __ ] reason then I'm anti-regulation
so what are they groping at when they
ask a ham-handed question like that is
it uh tribal signaling or do they really
have a base belief that regulations are
just a code word for breaks for
corporations on an individual level they
don't even realize they're doing it and
if you if you challenge them on it they'
be like
oh yeah I I'm not sure what I mean by
more regulation or less regulation right
uh because it's it's a factually
nonsensical Point good great Progressive
Matt Stoler worked in the Senate worked
Wasington a long time he told me this
once it's stuck with me I give him
credit for it all the time he'll he says
oh regulation uh you know J I'm gonna do
a project at my house what size pipe
should I buy I'm like I don't know
what's what do you need what's the job
right he's like exactly right you don't
know if you need more or less regulation
unless you know what the job is right so
I give you one last example my dad uh
ran a small business in New Jersey uh
bought and managed the uh commercial uh
building and uh they would inspect
elevators six times a year and he's like
this is that's crazy it's overr we have
to spend money we have to spend time
energy Etc so I said yeah so they so you
want them you don't want them to inspect
elevators right and he said no no no
they should inspect elevators twice not
six times I said why do you want them to
inspect it at all every time they
inspect it it cost you money he said
because sometimes in Turkey they didn't
inspect elevators and then they fell
okay so you don't want them to fall you
don't want people to get hurt you don't
want people to die you need regulation
you just don't need overregulation so
that's a sophisticated conversation but
to your
question they're in group think the
reporters the politicians so they
haven't thought any of that through they
just go with whatever talking point that
the software that that was written for
them somebody at some point told them to
be against regulation or for regulation
and they just mindlessly repeat that
without ever thinking what's the job
what are we trying to solve for right so
now back to Trump so I'm a little bit
more hopeful about Trump in this uh term
which is really pissing the left off
like you're not allowed to be 1% hopeful
about him and I'm not 100% hopeful about
him I'm not 50% hopeful about
him 12%
you know 20 Max maybe and the other 80%
is going to be terrible going to things
that I don't agree with corruption blah
blah blah right but so why uh because
his base is different now because his
base is getting their news from
different media so they're getting
different software so in the old days
when I went to go on a right-wing show I
would get Shan Hannity talking points
non-stop that's all I would ever effing
he okay they had the same talking points
Fox News and they all said the same
thing they were all robots it was I
wouldn't go on right-wing shows because
it was intensely dull you just yell at
each other back and forth talking point
talking point talking point talking
point talking point useless right now
you go on right-wing podcasts you go on
right-wing online shows everybody has a
different opinion Patrick B David has a
different opinion than Tim P who has a
different opinion than Joe Rogan who has
a different opinion than Dave Porto
because they're actual human beings and
they're not driven by this media
Industrial complex and the group think
that it comes with it so if you're on
the rightwing in the old days you all
believed whatever Rupert Murdoch
believed because it came down from the
Mountaintop through Fox News right and
what did rer Murdoch believe the rich
should get everything everything should
be tax C and deregulation and that's
still a main driving force in the
Republican party and that's why I'm not
a republican okay but now you have the
Bros so Rogan poroi Etc but those guys
they don't think the same way they have
no reason to support corruption they're
largely pro-choice they're not religious
fundamentalists they're not corporate
group think guys so we might disagree
with a whole bunch of their opinions on
trans rights or or or maybe even on
immigration
Etc but wait a minute they're pro-choice
so why do I hate them for having the
same position as I do I don't have to
hate him for that now the tribes are
getting a little bit mixed up and I love
that because the tribes are is as we've
been talking about the tribalism is
causing the problems right so now when I
go on a right-wing show and every almost
every right-wing show I've gone on is
anti-war I then come back and reported
to the left guys I got great news the
right wi is turned anti-war they hate
Dick Cheney like we hate Dick Cheney and
they're like we don't believe you and in
fact that's it you're a trump
supporter because we're so the tribalism
is so
ingrained you think that's um inherent
to the DNA Hardware of people on the
left that they are very good at
consensus building and um keeping people
in the group like what is it that drives
that because the right feels like the
exact opposite where they're uh
non-conformists they're a little bit
maybe Cowboy but um they have their own
set of problems but it feels very
different than the like really intense
purity test that you find on the left
yeah it no there's a little bit of that
which I don't know if it's interesting
enough to get into uh in the parts that
I agree with you on but overall I
disagree so um no I was I I grew up a
republican because I watched mainstream
media and I believe the [ __ ] of pie
Su strength and balancing budgets and
then it took me a long time to realize
wait a minute they never balanced the
budget in my entire life the last
Republican who balanced the budget was
Dwight freaking Eisenhower right oh they
don't want to balance budgets they just
want to give tax CS to the rich who are
their donors so okay I figured that out
Etc right um but but back then so I
switch over to the left I and I become a
Democrat um but back then the Democrats
were the punk guys they were the guys
who did not conform the Republicans were
like conform you you must obey that was
a very very Republican way of thinking a
very right-wing uh way of thinking now
the policies have roughly stayed the
same but the attitude is totally
switched that's why in the very
beginning of the conversation I said
attitude wise
philosophically like not in terms of
politics but in terms of how I act in
the world I relate a little bit more to
right-wing populists than Democratic
establishment because the right-wing
populists have become punk rock the
Cowboys as you described and they don't
like the authoritarian nature of the
government saying You must do this or
you must think that way that used to be
the left that used and and the left was
like we're not going to conform that was
what the left was known for and that
sense of Revolution and rebellion and
not listening to Authority and the
rightwing was you must listen to
authority figures now it's flipped well
I don't want to listen to authority
figures I think the authority figures
are full of [ __ ] I can't stand them and
I and as we talked about earlier with
neoliberals and establishment the
authority figures are not working on our
behalf they're working on their own
behalf and on behalf of the donors so I
can't stand that those authoritarian
[ __ ] have moved over to the
Democratic party and and and lo and
behold how do you see that actually uh
surface hey look at that there's Dick
Cheney on the campaign trail with KLA
Harris those are the guys we were
fighting the authoritarian jerks we were
fighting in the first place who told us
oh no no no we know better oh the
evidence of them having weapons of mass
destruction will be a mushroom cloud oby
otherwise you're a terrorist loving
scumbag support the troops you must obey
that was Republican 101 now that some
[ __ ] has moved over to the Democratic
side and I can't stand it so so that's
why it's not it it wasn't always this
way the party's flipped in that sense
and the parties flipped from time to
time like the Republicans used to be the
party of civil rights under obviously
Lincoln and and and the Democrats had
the dixy crats and they were the more
racist party and then after U the Civil
Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act
then that Lyon Johnson Democratic
president got passed then uh Richard
Nixon came up with a southern strategy
and I talked to Pat Buchanan about this
when he was on MSNBC and I was on MSNBC
and the strategy was go get racist
voters in the South who hates the Civil
Rights Movement the Democrats are giving
them up so let's go pick them up and get
more voters when I asked patri Kon about
it he said yeah we had a good 40-year
run so interesting uh you've put a lot
of pieces on the table and the fact that
these things move around and there's no
static Democrat Party Republican party
um what is the like if I were to look at
Trump now if you're call it 12 to 20%
optimistic I'm 60 to 70% optimistic but
what would you and I look at and say um
he's breaking bad or he's doing well
like what my North Star is very simply
human flourishing uh for the largest
number of people possible so assuming
yours is something along those lines how
do we judge whether Trump is moving in
the right direction or not yeah I think
it's I think it'll be relatively easy to
see so first of all why am I why do I
have that 12 to 20% optimism in Trump
because of one thing he likes to be
popular and that's not a bad tradeit for
a politician to have so Biden for
example his policy on Israel uh got down
to 20% in popularity ouch yeah and he's
like I don't care I don't care if we
lose the election I will fate the donors
no matter what I I serve the donors
period I don't care how how I'm popular
I am he got into the 30 low3s in
approval rating and I'm screaming you
cannot win an election if you're an
incompetent in the 40s let alone in the
30s who kind of but they don't care
about being popular they only care about
pleasing donors again not just Democrats
establishment politicians Trump on the
other hand cares about being popular so
if one person that's why I said yeah i'
definitely meet with Trump if I met with
Trump I can show him how to be popular
and they oh that's hottie it's a
[ __ ] give me one chance let's work
on one thing together and I can make it
more popular and more popular and more
popular because it's not rocket science
read a [ __ ] poll a paid family leaves
at 84% how stupid is any politician not
to pass that unless they're owned by the
donors who tell them no corporate
interests don't want moms to have any
time off right and so So Paid Family
Leave that's the first one so if I'm
going to guess based on the things
you've said that this is going to be um
how do we get get I don't know if you'd
use the word benefits but how do we get
benefits money not sure what the right
word is directly into the hands of the
average person yes okay so we start with
Paid Family Leave we're in the meeting
with Trump we're advising yeah I yes
paid family leave uh is definitely
something I I would advise them on and
you've got to do it right and there's a
certain way to do it it's I think it's
be easy I I can get if if Trump said Jen
you are now the enforcer for Paid Family
Leave I want you to pass it I get it
pass in two weeks
and then people will say outrageous this
guy how arrogant how no guys it's at 84%
only an idiot couldn't get it passed or
someone who's corrupt and never wanted
to pass it in the first place which
describes almost every president we've
had 84% if you can't get that pass
you're the most incompetent politician
in the world in the world what do you
need 86% 96% How Deeply incompetent are
you right so it's not a matter of
incompetence they don't want to pass it
you give me one person who wants to pass
it we pass it like that overnight what
do you do it's so easy you put the
politicians on the spot like Trump does
this is another good equality that Trump
has he misuses it for his own Advantage
oh uh will representative Wilson in
South Carolina says something mean about
Donald Trump that's it eliminate him in
the primary and he does and he's gone
forever instead of saying he said
something about mean about me if you
said oh will representative Wilson
you're going to vote against paid family
last [ __ ] vote you'll ever have go
ahead I dare you vote against it I
[ __ ] dare you right you'll pass it
instantly it'll almost by acclamation
okay because nobody wants to get singled
out as the corrupt piece of [ __ ] working
for corporations instead of for American
moms right but no one ever puts the
spotlight on these guys because they're
all corrupt it's maddening and there's a
couple of honest people like Ro and
Bernie Sanders and then they don't say
anything either because oh it would
offend their [ __ ] Democratic
colleagues oh let me let me ask you a
question Paid Family Leave is that a
good idea simply because it is popular
or when you look at your Northstar you
go Paid Family Leave is critical for my
Northstar yes so it is both intensely
popular and intensely uh beneficial so
every Other Nation on Earth not just
developed Nations almost every nation on
Earth has paid family leave because it's
Insanity it is brutal not to have paid
family leave so a lot of people that
that are in Media and in politics
they're in the upper class so they they
get paid family leave they don't realize
85% of Americans don't have paid family
leave you have to use up all of your
vacation time you have to use up all of
your PTO everything you've got to be
able to get a couple of weeks with your
baby before you go back on the goddamn
assembly line you go back to Burger King
otherwise you're going to go broke Etc
right I think it's Estonia that has 82
weeks of paid family leave we're so much
richer than Estonia how can they can we
afford of course we going to afford it
we're just choosing to brutalize our own
citizens because we live under corporate
rule so that's one example but if you
want to say the one thing that you'll be
able to tell if Trump's going the right
direction or wrong
direction is Netanyahu just made a deal
for the ceasefire that was a big uh
present to Donald Trump he could have
made that deal at any time Hamas had
already agreed to that deal all the way
back in July of last year right so
Netanyahu is the one that was holding it
up and As Trump comes in he gives him a
big thank you gift here it'll seem like
you brought us to ceasefire now what is
Netanyahu going to do next since he just
gave Trump something plus Mary mson gave
him $137 million her husband in previous
elections gave him $200 million and they
are adamantly right-wing Israeli
supporters so all of these interests are
telling Trump okay for now you look like
the Statesman later we're going to
collect what what are they going to
collect well Netanyahu loves starting
Wars so he'll probably start e either
he'll try to start a war with Iran and
make us fight it or pay for it or he'll
try to Annex the West Bank or Northern
Gaza and both of those will create
significant conflict and then at that
point every corrupt son of a [ __ ] in
Washington will come and say oh it's our
special Ally and we have a moral
relationship with them or blah blah blah
no no no they all got paid APAC is was
the number one donor in this election
cycle hundreds of millions of dollars in
bribes that we call campaign
contributions so when that happens and
Netanyahu comes calling and says to
Trump okay now make these American
sucker citizens pay for my Wars because
we're a special Ally and we have a judeo
Christian Heritage I once talked to a
rabbi he's like I don't remember that
judeo Christian Heritage about 80 years
ago they just made that [ __ ] up uh for
political purposes anyway so at that
point if Trump goes yes we're going to
join the conflict on Israel's side or
we're going to pay for all of their Wars
my prediction is that his right-wing
base is going to go not this time we're
sick of this [ __ ] okay you keep telling
me special Ally I don't know what the
[ __ ] that means uh they have paid family
leave in Israel they have Universal
Health Care in Israel and we're sending
them our money and we can't afford basic
stuff here in America so they could kill
more Palestinians no not because the
when cares about Palestinians or Muslims
in general right of course some of them
do but that's not a driving force for
them they're going to just say no I
don't want to give any more money and at
that point is Trump gonna go I don't
give a [ __ ] about you guys I serve the
donors right then he goes in a bad
Direction and then he can spiral if he's
if he's going in the wrong direction and
people keep attacking him the more they
attack him the more he'll spiral right
or he could do something that no
politician uh in American history as
long as I've been around has ever done
he can go hey nety you think you're
[ __ ] me wrong I'm [ __ ] you thanks
for all the money thanks for the all the
gifts I'm Donald Trump I stiff everyone
okay no I'm not paying for your Wars I'm
going with a magga base we're out that's
your War not my War if he does that then
he's going in the right direction and
that'll be very popular if he does that
so when he said that comment that's not
our War uh even though when he said it
sounded like he thought it was a little
bit callous it's ALS so the direction
that you think he needs to move in to
not be beholden to the donor class
there's some on the left who say no no
no he should support the
Palestinians I know I know he should be
Mother Teresa but he isn't right and so
he's not gonna out of the goodness of
his heart and go oh my God those poor
Palestinians got killed so badly and
slaughtered so badly oh my God Israel is
starving them to death oh I'm so worried
about that morally Trump doesn't think
that way he doesn't that's just not a
thing he cares about right so he's not
going to do it out of the goodness of
his hard and since he's never going to
help the Palestinians and no American
politician is ever going to help the
Palestinians I'll take
neutrality all day every day just stop
sending our money to them I know Israel
will continue to brutalize them but at
least they'll have a Fighter's chance of
at some point getting a balance of power
so they can get to a peace deal it's not
because I'm against Israel in fact I
think that peace deal would finally
create a safe haven for Jews which was
the whole point of Israel but instead
they have these monsters that are in
charge now who are like no more land
more land more war more war kill them
more right and so that doesn't help
Israel it makes the whole world hate
Israel and even worse it makes the whole
world hate Jews and I hate that I've got
Jewish Family I've got Jewish friends
so it's it's wrong in every direction so
if he if if he just got out and stopped
sending money to Israel that would be an
enormous wi okay especially sorry one
last thing because without American
money what Israel is going to fight a
war with Iran by itself no it's not no
way that they start that war unless they
think we're backing them so hey we just
prevented a war that's a giant win do
you think this plays the same if it's
the Ukraine or is there a special case
in Israel no it's a special case in
Israel uh Ukraine doesn't have the same
American donor class doesn't have any of
this those particulars uh Ukraine hasn't
controlled both the Democratic and
Republican party my whole lifetime
no Ukraine is just random uh Israel is a
thing of its own but but I don't want
anybody to misinterpret they just every
donor has the same kind of power
depending on how much money they put in
so the drug companies are four times
more powerful than APAC because they put
in usually not this election cycle but
usually at least four times and
oftentimes way more than APAC they so
they're the most powerful Lobby in the
country uh the oil companies are huge
there's all these different lobbies the
Israeli Lobby is like fourth fifth sixth
in Norm in a normal election cycle so
there's no like Boogeyman oh they
control everything no it's not like that
they're just a normal super powerful
donor and the donors control everything
it has nothing to do with race religion
or anything right how do you read the
fact that Trump has RFK set up to uh be
the person interfacing with the drug
companies is that a sign that he doesn't
give a [ __ ] about that donor class or no
if you go down the list get out of
Israel do Paid Family Leave I can give
you half a dozen other things
uh the
last couple where he would be get to be
a hero the ultimate priz is if any
politician and yes this includes Donald
Trump actually got money out of politics
they would be the biggest Legend this
country has ever seen they would build
statues of them in every city okay and
if he ever found that out and realized
that that was really true
then he might think wow statues of me in
every city that sounds pretty good right
so there's a there's potentially a way
to push him into doing that um
but but but it's unlikely that he's
going to go in that direction partly
because he needs
someone to guide him in that direction
or not even necessarily guide him but
just to suggest hey what if we did this
what if it was po you see how it's
popular right but all the people around
them care about their own self-interest
they all have their different agendas
and this guy wants to run for governor
the other guy wants to be vice president
the or president the other guy would
needs that donor class and that donor
needs the deregulation so they're all
like pigs at the trough and Trump you
know he doesn't mind corruption so he's
enabling all of that uh but if but if he
chose not to and he could because he's a
wild card then he can go in a positive
direction I'll be very interested to see
how it plays out he talks very openly
about like hey got a lot of money from
these guys and so we're doing this thing
uh it's really interesting to see do I
have not heard him make any noises about
getting money out of politics has he no
no not at all no and look remember in
2016 he the his most popular uh plank
was drain the swamp so whenever he said
drain the swamp The Crowd Goes Nuts
right the rightwing hated corruption now
in the old days didn't hate corruption
they love Mitch McConnell because Sean
henned told him to love Mitch McConnell
and Mitch McConnell was the Heart of
Darkness in corruption and by the way
same for Democrats Nancy Pelosi took the
same billion dollars that that Mitch
McConnell took and she's the Heart of
Darkness on corruption on the Democratic
side but if you tell a Democrat that oh
my God how dare you Nancy Pelosi's an
angel really same money same promises to
donors and you think she's an angel and
you think it's just a coincidence the
Democratic party couldn't get paid
family leave passed couldn't get minimum
wage pass I can again a dozen bills that
pull at above
67% two-thirds of the country says yes I
definitely want that and Pelosi and
Biden took billions and the clintons
took billions to not do those bills
while pretending to be in favor of those
bills and mainstream media came in and
said oh they're trying really hard
there's just no way to pass a bill at
84% oh no no you'd have to be at 12% to
pass a bill I mean they're just such
American Heroes blah blah blah I'm so
[ __ ] tired of it so back to Trump so
he realized drain the swamp was a good
talking point and it worked really well
for him in 2016 and if you notice he
lost in 2020 when he stopped talking
about draining the swamp Okay why did he
stop talking about draining the swamp
because the entire time he was President
he was filling the swamp he's like you
get a tax gun you get a tax gun you get
deregulation you get deregulation he's
like Oprah handing out C
right
so to to so right now if you told them
get money out of politics he' be like
what are you mental that money's coming
to me I'm not getting it out of but if
there was an honest
advisor right-wing or otherwise that
said to him brother you're not up for
reelection you don't need any campaign
contributions that frees you to actually
do the thing that is the single most
popular thing in America 93% of
Americans think that politicians serve
their donors instead of their voters 93%
93% by the way 93% of cable news anchors
think that the politicians serve their
voters instead of their not I made that
last number up but because it's actually
100% but okay so so he has no
inclination in that direction and no one
around him has any inclination in that
direction they all love that money and
that money is what got them to the top
just like it got Pelosi and McConnell to
the top but he actually does have an
opportunity since he's not going to run
for
reelection that he could do that whereas
no other politician would I have a base
assumption that Trump is thinking Legacy
and that the only way he sees his legacy
being cemented is is is if he is uh
followed by somebody from his crew
winning the next election so while he
isn't going to run for reelection I
think he is going to try to set things
up uh for it to keep going so now the
question becomes I don't think so no I
don't you think as long as this is good
we're out I don't think Trump doesn't
feel true why do you think he's going so
hard in his first 100 days just to I've
got four years I need to do something
cool and that's just that no he wants to
be popular and he's that's a smart
strategy as I talked about I think I
talked about in the beginning the Optics
of him signing all those executive
orders was amazing and it and it it
animates his base uh and it makes him
more popular within the base it makes
him look more active with Democrats you
have to push push push right but do you
think he's trying to look more active or
he's actually trying to be more active
look I I mean so does he really care
about ending Birthright citizenship I
don't think so uh and I think he's doing
that as red meat for the base uh so I
don't think he's animated by any one of
those policies I think he's doing it
because he thinks that that's what
people will like but I don't care I
don't care what animates him but the
reason I I interrupted though was
because if you said to him it's really
important for your legacy for JD Vance
to win blah blah blah blah in my opinion
he's like who's JD Vance like he doesn't
give a [ __ ] about anyone that isn't
named Donald J Trump so he's not gonna
care about JD Vance he's not gonna think
of his legacy in that way he's gonna
think of Legacy in terms of what did
Donald J Trump do let me give you a
different take tell me where I go arai I
think it's gonna and look I'm planting a
flag so we'll find out if I end up being
right or not this is my read of the
situation uh Donald Trump wants to echo
through the annals of History he wants
to be up on Mount Rushmore part of him
probably believes that he already
deserves or is certainly on that path uh
but he understands that he's going to
have to really do something effective
over the next four years and that if you
really want this stuff to carry on
because four years isn't going to going
to be enough you've got to have somebody
coming in behind you now I don't think
he cares who it is so it doesn't have to
be JD Vance maybe he's the least likely
in Trump's mind I have no idea but it is
going to be somebody that is extremely
loyal to Trump that will say uh it is
due to the glory of our Godfather Trump
that I have ended up here and you know I
want to thank the voters of course but I
think we all know I never would have
made it here without Donald Trump like I
can imagine him having these fans
now to pull that off he's got to do
things that are very popular I think
you're right that he has a pull towards
I know how to read the room and so the
thing that that motivates me isn't sort
of objectively moral or right or
anything like that it's um I am here at
the will of the people and I'm going to
do things that they think are awesome
and look there are going to be times
where I'm just going to override them
because I know best and I've got to do
this to get this thing done and um but
he is so aware that being a man of the
people that you aspire to be is this one
two punch that's impossible to beat so
when he's at McDonald's he's still in
like a $3,000 suit or a $10,000 suit
whatever uh but he's rocking the line
and he's making jokes and he's very
funny and he's driving the dump truck
the trash uh truck and so I have a
feeling he really understands that if I
can make the economy Boom for the
American people if I can uh begin
lowering inflation if I can put more
money in their pockets that that is
nothing I could do will make me more
popular than that and then if I make
sure that I'm um followed by somebody
that uh also is going to reinforce all
my legacy and everything that I've been
building then there's a real that I'm
going to be remembered and so that is my
gut instinct of what's going to drive
him I think he's going to move furiously
I think he's going to continue to
surrounded by the best and the brightest
entrepreneurial executors to see if he
can actually pull this stuff off now
whether he gets mired in the realities
of politics and then like the fighter
who falls back to his brawler ways just
because he starts getting frustrated
that's very possible um but the energy
that
I see is somebody who's actually trying
to pull something off I I think you're
projecting I think you're projecting on
two fronts one is on the Legacy and the
person who follows him I don't think he
thinks of Legacy as any other human
being than him a traditional politician
like Biden would think oh who's going to
follow me and Obama oh my God such an
egomaniac obsessed with his legacy how
do I appear how do I appear okay I need
to have this person win after me so my
legacy that's a very normal politician
right um I don't think Trump's a normal
politician I don't think he cares about
anybody else and would not
perceive any other person who follows
him as part of trump he only thinks
Trump is part of trump and so we it's
hard to you know who's right I don't
know oh no this is fun because time will
tell right so we're we're about to watch
it all way out Ian I mean look at what
he did to his last vice president they
told him they're chanting hang Mike
Pence make no mistake if he thinks
somebody's being disloyal he will cut
them out as fast as you can say get rid
of them yeah there's no doubt about that
so then that's why I think you're
thinking about Legacy in the wrong way
uh although I understand what you're
saying he does care about Legacy just
not by extension just whatever he does
secondly because that goes towards his
ego so I agree with you on that um so
this the second thing is you're thinking
well if he delivers for the American
people then he'll be more popular
because that's how you think right
because you're a good person and you
think hey if I deliver then people like
me Etc we saw in his first term he he
didn't do any of that he just thinks
what's good for me and then if it turns
out that I'm popular great I give you an
example so he pressured Powell at the
FED to make sure he kept interest rates
as low as humanly possible but if you
and if you keep interest rates really
low when you're president that's going
to be to your advantage and arguably the
American people's advantage because low
interest rates are generally a good
thing right keep the economy humming but
they have a big downside which is that
if you keep them too low for too long it
could contribute to inflation and
especially if inflation is going to come
and then pure pours fuel on that fire so
it's not the only reason why inflation
came but it definitely was problematic
that they had kept those rates too L uh
too low for too long and so if Donald
Trump actually cared about the American
people he would had a more balanced
approach to the Federal Reserve but he
doesn't he thinks gives a [ __ ] what
happens after I'm president I need these
four years to kick ass uh on the economy
because when I go up for a reelection
I'm going to say the economy was great
and if it blows up on the next guy who
gives a [ __ ] so like you're you're
putting these moral thoughts into his
head that I don't think he has
interesting I'm not trying to put moral
thoughts into his head because I don't
think he's that kind of creature what
I'm uh what I see now I admittedly was
not paying super close attention in 2016
so I don't have a sense of who he was
and what he did uh so I'm really
clocking him uh as of when he started
running for office this time okay uh
watching him there and and I'm taking a
big cue from the people that he
surrounded himself with so if you
remember the big question was will this
guy who burned through everybody in the
first term will he be able to get people
around him that really uh are high
quality people that are going to help
him really run a government and I'll
admit when I saw the inauguration I had
two thoughts one oh [ __ ] this really is
what an oligarchy looks like you have
the richest people in the world just off
his shoulder uh and so I was like okay
okay I get why people are being paranoid
and it's good I want people to be
paranoid but I also saw the greatest
operators of this generation I mean just
absolutely unbelievable operators now
whether they can get along from an ego
standpoint I don't know and we're going
to see whether those people are fighting
for things that are going to be good for
the middle class or not I don't know
we're going to see I know um heard let
me let me finish this because if for
nothing else I want to be able to play
this back in four years and see if I was
an absolute lunatic or if I got close uh
and I think he believes that the people
really wanted they want change they are
pushing back against ideology that I
I've done a whole Spiel on why I don't
like the phrase uh the woke mind virus
but given that they will use phrases
like that I'll just shorthand it uh the
American people don't want that anymore
uh we're going to drill baby drill and
he is you're right he's going to run
everything hot and he's going to um
drill and if that has impacts on climate
change he's not really going to worry
about it for sure but it will be good
for American Energy Independence we will
be able to sell that energy elsewhere in
the world World it will put us in a
strong economic position uh if we can um
find a balance between tariff as cudle
to get the deals done that we want and
actually get some money on some of the
tariffs there will be a brief period of
inflation because there's not the easy
thing to switch over to once you kill
some of these products through tariffs
um but it will encourage people to come
into
America in terms of manufacturing and we
must if we want to re be isolationists
we're going to have to bring
manufacturing back if we're going to go
into a legitimate cold war that almost
certainly will end hot with China at
some point in the next 15 20 years we're
going to need to bring back that
manufacturing base so he's going to have
a good true story there uh he's already
got masaan to contribute 100 million for
sure potentially up to 500 billion sorry
if I said 100 million 100 billion
possibly 500 billion masaan who is
Japanese
uh said it is because of you Mr Trump
that we are doing this deal now that's
clearly a line that he wants said
because it got talked over at one point
masan made sure to repeat it so that
felt very um theatrical but nonetheless
is like okay here's a guy that people
want to appease he's bringing in global
dollars into the US and so I see
somebody who looks at the American
economy goes Hold On We're the biggest
we're the baddest [ __ ] on
planet Earth and we're going to start
acting like it and we're going to push
people around and it's going to be a
little short term there's no doubt there
will be a backlash to all this stuff you
cannot go bully people and not expect
that at some point that that's going to
come home to roost that's where I think
the shortsightedness of trump will come
back and be problematic down the road
but I think it gets him eight years four
years of him plus four years of whoever
his successor is going to be and that's
probably about as far I mean he'll in
his mind be like it's going to go on
forever but in his mind he can believe
yep for sure we're going to get somebody
else reelected and I I don't think
people give him enough credit he does
get the gist of how this stuff works if
you push him on the details he's going
to fall apart but he gets the gist of
how this stuff works and so if meaning
the economy and so if he's able to um
make us more independent make a lot of
money off of our natural resources uh
convince people to some people read it
as rape Alaska but to utilize Alaska to
not only drill for oil but to drill for
Rare Earth minerals and things that
otherwise we'd have to go to other
countries for I mean you hey you are
using our resources which is going to
make some people deeply uncomfortable
but it will make us economically more
powerful and I I am just utterly
convinced at the end of the day the only
thing anybody cares about is are you
making my life better and giving me hope
that my kids' lives will be better and
if you do that they will go along with
literally the most horrifying [ __ ] ever
and so I think that he's going to
capture that fervor turn it into Real
Results in people's pockets and people
going be like yeah word this is dope and
again I think the rubber band snaps back
and I think that there will be prices to
pay but I think that's eight years from
now it's my gut I think there's an 80%
chance none of that happens okay I do
I'll come back to the hope of the 20%
that we've been talking about that's
that some of that will happen um
but you're projecting confidence on him
you're projecting uh like an ability to
know what the right policies are that
I've never seen him have uh you're
projecting confidence
and a little bit of good intent on the
people around him which is I have never
seen so let's start let's start with the
the great operators the oligarchs that
are behind him right I agree with you
they're great operators Bezos and
Zuckerberg it's amazing Elon starlink
and SpaceX are wonders to behold right
um but they're great operators on their
own behalf I've never seen them be great
operators on behalf of the American
people and to be fair that's not their
job right their job is to create these
giant companies and make literally more
money than anyone has ever seen
literally so the idea that that the
Bezos and the must of the world are
going to go hey you know what I mean was
on a major competition with the other
guys on this Podium to be the richest
man in the world but I don't care about
that anymore I want to operate on behalf
of the American
people I got that at 2% in terms of
likelihood I've got it them thinking I'm
gonna use this to beat Bezos and be
number one at 98% so what is the first
thing Eli's going to do he's going to
deregulate his own business guaranteed
now he says he's going to cut uh uh you
know waste Fraud and Abuse in from with
by using Doge the thing that he named
after his
own you know coin right his his own uh
product it's unbelievable the the
comments are not going to like that
classification I get what you're saying
Doge technically isn't his but yes
anyway blah blah blah blah blah you can
make any excuses you like okay in fact
if you're G to get angry about that wait
till you get a little of the next thing
I'm going to say the major thing that
they are going to do the the number one
thing that Trump did in his first term
was the biggest corporate tax cuts
literally in American history added
eight over8 trillion to the deficit
balanced budget he doesn't care about
balancing the budget at all he added
more to the deficit than anyone did okay
give more to the rich give more to the
rich give more to the rich give more to
the rich that was his main driving force
why he's Rich everybody he knows is Rich
right so self-interest so this time
around through crypto they're going to
Rob so much money from the American
people and there is going to be an
unbelievable rage about that when it
hits it that could be an absolute
Calamity do you mean as meme coins or
just the celebration of crypto and so
this is why people get even more angry
because I have no idea what scheme
they're going to come up with but it
might be the Bitcoin Reserve where they
take fake money that isn't real at all
and then they have the US government
back it so then it becomes real so I had
all this fake money and now the American
people have to pay for my fake money
with real money what the no I didn't
sign up for that I don't want to pay for
your dumbass Bitcoin or whatever it is
you want to go have fun with Bitcoin go
have fun with it you want and a lot of
people have made good money God bless I
got know it's a free country you do
whatever you like
right after all the stuff the right-wing
is talked about we don't want the
government to do this and we don't want
government regulation and we don't want
big government if they say the
government should then come in and and
guarantee the Bitcoins and the meme
coins and the blah blah blah and the all
the different crypto and they go no now
we should have FDIC cover it no no no no
no no no no no no are you
anti-government or are you not
anti-government right and remember the
whole thesis of crypto
was the government's bad we don't need
the government we don't want the
government we don't want it regulated
now all of a sudden I'm hearing oh the
government should create a reserve the
government should guarantee it the
government should do this the government
should do
that we're making predictions right I
predict the largest robbery anybody's
ever seen and then when the right-wing
base realizes they're the ones who got
robbed they're GNA be
mad okay and the left wing already hates
these guys so I don't know what that
creates but that that is a massive
Iceberg head it doesn't have to happen
and I'm not saying it's guaranteed at
all right but if you think that Elon
Musk isn't looking to take whatever he
has in crypto and find a way to to add
to his already massive wealth and that
that isn't driving him but charity and
general welfare is driving
him I mean the sucker's born every
minute okay if you think Bezos and
Zuckerberg and all of these guys are
like all of a sudden I care about the
American people I see that they have
selected Donald Trump and I am here to
help this has nothing to do with my
financial interest I just came here to
help get out like come on guys please
don't be suckers I'm telling you right
now when Democratic donors come in
they're not here to help you they're
here to take order the Democratic
politicians to do as they're told you
know that that's true of democratic
politicians you know it's true of old
school Republican politicians but you
think that Trump and Elon Musk are the
one exception the guy who ran a fake
University and a fake charity that's
drum he had to pay a $25 million fine
for his fake University he had to pay a
I think $2 million fine for his fake
charity that guy cares about the
American people and doesn't care about
himself that's just nuts he's a
politici okay
so again I think that there is a part
that it could go right
but look at the things that you
mentioned I'll break it down into two
categories one is things I don't agree
with but that are relatively popular
these days in America so if you're on
the left and you don't want them to
ravage Alaska it's a sad day for us that
ship is sailed it's going to happen and
the American people aren't going to mind
that much okay uh if you don't want you
know significant immigration reform sad
day for you that ship is sailed right
and you mentioned a couple other things
that yes you're right the American
people agree with the rightwing on that
these days they agree with Trump on
these that on these days so they'll do
that those are easy wins they're base
agrees the general population agree
agrees their donors agree okay now how
can you tell if they're honest actors
well if you want to cut waste Fraud and
Abuse number one the Pentagon sitting
there loaded with pork and the
right-wing base agrees it's pork pork
pork pork pork don't give me this
[ __ ] about support the troops you
pay them $220,000 a year and trillions
goes to Ron locki Martin Boeing Etc
right so if they cut the Pentagon
significantly I'll say credit where
credit is due they delivered $30 billion
in oil subsidies why the [ __ ] are we
giving the most profitable companies in
the world our taxpayer dollars if you're
mad about the 4 billion every year that
goes to Israel you should be fuming
about the $30 billion that goes to the
oil
companies subsidies why the [ __ ] are we
giving them subsidies
maybe they needed it a hundred years ago
when the industry started but they don't
need it today that $30 billion is a
goddamn robbery and they take it out of
your paycheck is Elon going to really
cut that is Trump really G to cut that
well the proof's going to be in the
pudding we're all going to see together
if they don't cut it they were full of
[ __ ] drill baby drill wasn't for our
benefit it was for the oil company's
benefit and you know Trump he says it
oil companies giveing me money I I'll
let you drill anywhere uh he says I was
against electric vehicles but then Elon
gave me a strong endorsement now I'm in
favor of electric vehicles I was going
to ban Tik Tok but Jeff Yas 15% owner of
Tik Tok gave me a couple million dollars
now I like Tik Tok okay so he's super
transactional he's just going to deliver
for the people who give him a shitload
of money and so those are the oligarchs
sitting on that stand our only hope for
you not being monumentally
wrong is that somehow some decent person
gets in the room and says Donald forget
all these guys you already won you don't
need any of the oil companies you don't
need Elam mus you don't need B
Zuckerberg you don't need any of those
guys all you need is to actually deliver
for the American people that way you'll
be super popular the brother is 98% ego
you have to appeal to his ego but if you
do and you show him that being popular
is the best way to feed his ego then
you've got your lane in which he could
do a lot of wonderful things but that is
but he's never shown that so that's why
the leftwing is not wrong when they say
Jen you're in fantasy land he's never
done that I know you think you're seeing
something in the right-wing base you're
seeing something in Trump that might get
to that result but it's awfully hard for
us to see it since he's never done it
before yeah uh this is definitely
something that is going to play out in
time I think you're right that uh he's
driven largely by ego but as of right
now the thing that will feed his ego is
to get money in the pockets of every day
Americans those are the big promises
that he's made and if he does it he
would be hugely popular so uh the only
thing I'm trading on is that he'll
actually do that now I we'll find out
fast enough if he does or doesn't uh so
it'll be interesting to watch um I think
one thing that okay so first I have to
PL for my own audience so there I'm G to
get lit up in the comments that I didn't
say anything uh so Bitcoin uh as fake
money versus Fiat as real money I I
won't I won't bother dragging us down
that path right now I would just say
dear beloved audience uh you and I
disagree on that um I certainly see Fiat
as the far more problematic money than
Bitcoin even without needing you to
believe that Bitcoin is real and Fiat is
fake um just that Fiat is far easier to
manipulate but my take so can I just
real quick on that and I I grant
everybody that I'm not an expert on it
and so then you can pile on more oh you
don't know you don't know I'll just say
real quick there's different uh buckets
here so the memec coins like Trump's
meme coin trash utter trash it's just
speculation it has no intrinsic value no
nothing it's not a currency aggressively
true okay you meme coins make me very
sad okay good totally agree I get that
Bitcoin is a currency and not the same
as a meme coin most people were gonna
say is not a currency it's a store of
wealth some people want it to be a
currency but that's a whole different
thing yeah but it's a different category
than meme coins correct wildly so yeah
and you could attach any label you like
to it but I understand it and then when
you get to uh the US dollar for example
and the Federal Reserve I'm not saying
that there aren't problems there's
significant problems there so the
Federal Reserve is run by the New York
Federal Reserve that makes the main
decisions well who makes the main
decisions for the New York Federal
Reserve their board does well who's on
their board the CEOs of the seven major
Banks the Federal Reserve is isn't
serving us it's serving the seven major
Banks agreed yeah so don't get me wrong
I understand the problem with the
Federal Reserve I understand uh that
that currency has issues too but
nevertheless we're based on that system
and that system has Contin and and the
dollar being the main currency in the
world is enormously important to us
agreed right so I would be very very
careful about upsetting that system
reforms have to be done with with a
Tender Touch there okay yeah I'll sort
of agree with that I will say if we
don't reform the system it will go away
and it will be cataclysmic for the US on
the world stage for sure and every uh
Empire I don't know you want to call
America now but every Empire that's ever
had a reserve currency ever throughout
all of human history has printed their
way into Oblivion everyone there's no
exceptions so uh I don't want to get on
my Soap Box because it's is not often
that I get a sit across from you uh but
my audience knows well my Soap Box
around printing money they have drinking
games around it and I'm worry that they
will die of alcohol poisoning because
but Tom I actually totally agree with
you
like that doesn't mean Bitcoin is the
answer in my world and it doesn't mean
that we need to do drastic reform
overnight because that could really
overturn the apple cart in a disastrous
way oh we agree okay but I fundamentally
agree with you that non-stop printing of
money will catch up with you and that's
going to leave them Mark here is my core
thesis you and I both want the same
thing we want middle uh middle inome
average people to thrive and I'll Define
thriving where over time they are making
more and more money and they are
convinced their kids' lives will be even
better than theirs when you go through a
period like that it is [ __ ] glorious
uh and also that they feel safe I think
that's incredibly important cool that's
it that's all I'm trying to help people
get to and when you print money the
fundamental thing you're doing is saying
I'm gonna and these are my
words when money is printed you are
stealing money from everybody that holds
the US dollar or debt US debt from
everybody so it could be China right
they hold a ton of debt uh everybody
that holds it you're stealing from them
so the nice thing about being the
reserve currency is you're not just
stealing from your own people you're
stealing from everybody else um you you
don't have to have them vote for it
though and so by my book that's pretty
[ __ ] Sinister and so now guess who
you hurt the most you hurt the poor
people the most because when you take
their buying power they don't have a
cushion that the rich people have I'm
speaking as a rich person who actually
[ __ ] benefits from money Printing and
I'm screaming from the rooftops for the
love of God please stop because this is
why people actually kill the rich
because you create a system where they
cannot [ __ ] get ahead so it goes like
this I know you know this but just to
throw it out so everybody hears it when
you're printing money uh the way that
you you're the same amount is in the
person's bank account let's say they
have $100 they still have $100 but $100
buys now $90 worth of stuff and then 80
and then 70 and just on and on down they
still have 100 though uh now you can put
money back into the system but the only
way that you put money back into the
system is by buying debt so now if you
weren't holding debt there's no way for
them to get that money into the system
which there's a name for the cancel on
effect whatever the [ __ ] it's called and
so people closest who know what they're
going to buy they get their stuff bought
and so now that upper echelon of people
they end up getting richer and richer
and richer that's way one that they get
richer the second way that they get
richer is as you devalue the
currency things that you hold that are
assets go up in value not really they
just go up in value in the proportion
that the buying power of the dollar goes
down so if you have a house then your
house goes from 200,000 to 500,000 to a
million dollars over enough years it's
still worth the same it's just that the
dollar is worth a lot less so it takes a
lot more dollars to buy the same house
so by owning assets you have a hedge
against the fact that they're printing
money now the problem is 50% of
Americans don't have assets so you keep
getting this [ __ ] fing Runway divide
between the rich and the poor but it's
all born of [ __ ] money Printing and
so dude this is one I really feel like
I'm screaming into a tornado and people
just cannot hear what I'm saying that
the money printing is the problem now to
make it even worse we've gotten
ourselves already in a situation where
if you don't print money the short-term
problem is so brutal that they're going
to keep printing money and I get it the
the short-term problem would be so
[ __ ] brutal I get why they're
printing money but Jesus if we can't get
out of that system somehow some way so
people talk about Bitcoin as a Lifeboat
I [ __ ] hate that language by the way
because that still means most people on
Titanic [ __ ] die so I'm not super
Keen but at least there's something
anyway it does need to be Bitcoin money
printing is where I want people to focus
so you and I both want middle class
average everyday person who [ __ ]
works their ass off trying to make ends
me for their family we want to create a
system where uh if they work and they're
diligent that they're going to make more
money and that their kids are going to
do even better than them boom nice and
easy now I think where we start to
disagree is that I am suspicious of
oligarchs I am suspicious of uh money in
politics I think it's wildly deranging
deeply problematic and we need to get it
the [ __ ] out however I think that
companies are the economic engine that
will allow your average person to make
more money and their kids to do even
better it's obviously an
oversimplification but without a
thriving economy there's a reason that
America is the number one economy in the
world and if we don't do things that are
good for the economy we're really going
to be in trouble and I get anybody that
looks at all these billionaires with a
side eye but
man if you take somebody like Mark
andreson I don't know if he's going to
love me bringing him up and dragging him
into this fight but uh is Mark a flawed
person probably I don't know him very
well but when I really look at the way
that he talks about how to think about
your own life how to think about getting
educated how to teach your children how
to run a company [ __ ] man it's all real
and it's good and if you do it in your
own life these are things he says for
free it will make you better at
controlling your own life controlling
your education uh building a company if
that's what you want to do and he's one
of the people that's talking to Trump
and saying we need to do these things
and so and [ __ ] Elon dude even if
Elon was like deregulate my company so I
can keep doing
more there's no one in my lifetime who's
better executed against Grand ideas than
him so we've got a group of people that
even when they're being selfish have
delivered the world pretty incredible
things I don't mind if people look
sideways at social media maybe that was
a little weird um but boy oh boy it can
break bad there's no doubt and these
guys are going to be selfish a th% but
my whole thing on humans is the only
thing you can guarantee is that people
are going to be selfish so if you can
align your selfish desires you've got a
shot so my optimism is entirely around
not believing that they're being
altruistic but believing that the things
they want are actually good for the
economy and that we'll need a booming
economy that isn't deranged by corporate
dollars but we need a booming economy
that is immediately accessible by the
middle class so when you said now will
diverge before be before you said that
everything you said before for then I
agree 100% with okay so but I'll I'll
flesh that out for you uh so um on the
left there's Stephanie Kelton who came
up with an interesting uh modern
monetary Theory uh and what that
basically says is printing money is no
big deal and deficits don't matter on
the right Dick Cheney said the same
thing deficits don't matter and he is a
famous moment where he whispers that in
Bush's ear while they're actually in a
meeting and they're on air and
so uh both of those folks I don't agree
with I I think it's just a matter of
simple logic economics Etc printing
money at infin item leads to guaranteed
disaster right so we're totally align on
that um I'll give you one more data
point there so I interviewed Ray doio
legendary investor love R yeah and what
I love about R doio is how logically is
and so I deeply respect that brother
okay so uh and again it doesn't mean
that he's an angel it doesn't mean any
of these folks are angels uh but with a
very limited experience I've had with
him it's good guy but most importantly
logical is going to do uh things that
make sense so uh I talked to him about
the FED Federal Reserve and he had
actually lost all of his money in the
very beginning considers it his biggest
mistake what he didn't realize was that
the Fed was going to come in and print
more money uh and so now that of course
then He adjusted for that made it an
enormous amount of money Etc but we got
to the point where I then asked him said
okay now the Federal Reserve already
bailed out the banks and then it printed
more money and then whenever we run into
trouble covid it prints more money uh
and I said so what if we run into a
giant economic problem and the Federal
Reserve has to print even more money uh
what do you think will happen and he
said I think we're out of bullets and so
if they go to print money on a mass
scale again I think we're going to run
into a a giant problem okay and so I
believe that I think that's true I think
that's logical I think we're a little
bit on the Titanic here but it's been
such a long journey that people forget
that there's still an iceberg out there
and they think we're on syncable so I
could you know we're super aligned on
that and we've got to find a way to get
that back under control and not have it
just serve the seven Banks but actually
serve the American people etc etc so now
um when you get into the Divergence and
um
so let let's take a couple examples uh
so are all companies evil no of course
not that's ridiculous you run a company
I run a company they're not evil
companies we have a sponsor aspiration
they're good guys trying to help the
world it's you can go on and on right uh
so do we need uh corporations we do but
but our founding fathers said it well
they said it was a NE at best a
necessary evil and they said uh be super
careful because corporations will
accumulate a lot of money and a lot of
power and then they will work against
democracy oh my God they were totally
right they were 100% right and if you
remember in the American Revolution
they're not just going against the
British Empire they're going against the
British East India Company in fact the
BR the Boston Tea Party is a Revolt not
against the empire but against that
particular corporation they throw their
tea their product into the harbor
uh in in a revolt against corporate rule
that the British Empire has imposed upon
the colonies so they were right about
their warning and it is true that it is
necessary but we have to be inordinately
careful with corporations and we have
not been so now so how do you be careful
well you right now we only have one line
of code for corporations maximize profit
that is a super
dangerous line of code and and on the
one hand it makes perfect sense it's a
is you know you funnel People's Natural
selfishness into a productive Avenue so
that it could create income and revenue
and improve the economy create jobs Etc
on the other hand it starts a greed
machine and that greed machine grows and
grows and grows and is only interested
in itself and only interested in
maximizing profit other countries and
other systems have put in two or three
lines of code yes you should maximize
profit but you should also care about
stakeholders you have to care about the
community and what does that mean to
care about the community there's certain
guidelines so you don't well if I want
to maximize profit and I have a toxic
product I dump it into the river I'm
going to make a lot more money because
instead of treating the toxic chemicals
and that's going to cost me a lot of
money and make sure you dispose of them
properly let just get rid of them right
so I maximize profit if that's your only
line of code we're screwed other
countries say no you cannot poison the
rivers Etc now you say like we say that
too barely barely that's the regulation
that we talked about earlier and now
Trump musk and everybody's saying
deregulate you don't even need those
tiny amount of regulations get rid of it
all let corporations be above the law
super dangerous not because there
shouldn't be corporations but because I
believe in Democratic
capitalism again it's a concept I
explained in my book and what I'm mean
by Democratic capitalism is we have
capitalism but it's checked by democracy
that our government officials our
politicians our representatives are
supposed to make sure that those
corporations do not Rob Us blind because
the corporations are perfectly capable
of looking out for their own interests
we don't have to worry about that right
we have to worry that our
representatives in government look out
for our interests right so then they
what that creates is balance but right
now we don't have that balance so what
does that lead to a specific example um
and now a lot of right-wing populists
are mad about this this is the first
time I realized the right-wing populists
were headed in an interesting and
potentially productive direction is when
Charlie Kirk came on our show in the
Republican
convention and I forget if he brought it
up or I brought it up um but we started
talking about how private Equity Black
Rock Etc are buying all the residential
real estate in the country and he said I
hate that I was like you hate that I
couldn't believe it because my whole
life right-wing media and Republican
politicians have been like of course
corporations should get everything and
the average American should get nothing
and like it okay and you're going to be
our indentured servant you're going to
like it because if they keep buying up
the homes that is the the place where we
create most wealth for the average
American for middle class in America and
what they are seeing in private Equity
is something that is logical that will
help them maximize profit if they buy
all the homes they create the wealth
they take it instead of the average
American and then they make you a renter
and that ties you more into being an
inder servant for corporations and then
they get the rent money they get the
accumulation of uh wealth from the real
estate now if we don't have any
regulations and we say companies are a
good thing their self-interest will
eventually lead to the positive results
for average American that would be a
dramatic mistake and that's the mistake
we're making right now and we need the
government to look out for us they're
supposed to be our Representatives I
know they haven't been for so long that
we've forgotten that they're supposed to
be our Representatives but we're
supposed to send them in to have the
power to contain the worst impulses of
those corporations so right now what we
should have and we have a populist plank
on tyt.com and it's six policies that
that I think almost everyone in the
country agrees with negotiate drug
prices anti-war I can go on right but
one of them is Ban private Equity from
buying residential real estate so that
would be Democratic capitalism where you
go no this is a line you cannot Thou
shalt not pass because if they take our
homes from us we are forever
[ __ ] yeah so first of all I definitely
agree that you don't want no regulation
I'm in your dad's Camp of uh there is
such a thing as too much and there is
such a thing as too little totally agree
on that um the only twist in the Black
Rock thing though I also hate the idea
of them buying up homes I would love to
see something put in place for that is
the bigger beef that I have is Black
Rock is simply an aggregator of um
shareholders so technically Black Rock
doesn't own those things the
shareholders own those things and
anybody can be a shareholder of black
rock my bigger problem is that 50% % of
Americans don't own stocks and so we've
created a system where you have to flee
money you can't save your way to success
because of money printing you will
literally be punished for saving money
which I think is immoral whole another
soapbox uh but at a minimum if you're
not teaching people about how to buy
stocks when they're in like middle
school high school just obsessively
educating them on how to do that index
funds things that are low volatility
long-term plays minimize risk as much as
possible not talking about turning
people into day Traders um then now it's
you're doubly [ __ ] so anyway I don't
want to see Black Rock gobble those
things up for the same reason homes are
no longer a Grand Slam in terms of
saving your wealth but that's again a
different conversation uh but yeah it's
interesting um the this is a very
interesting conversation because we see
so many things the same way but from a
slightly different angle which I love um
let me ask there's some fun things that
I've got to get your take on uh you
brought up Tik Tok what is really going
on with Tik Tok What should we ban it is
it a Chinese spy device like how should
we be thinking about that no uh the
campaign against Tik Tock is 98%
[ __ ] uh we definitely should not ban
it it would be a massive violation of
the First Amendment uh the government
has no business doing that I the Supreme
Court should have never uh allowed it I
mean the Supreme Court's so out of
control like that's another soapbox
another conversation I think the Supreme
Court has ruined this country and you'll
be surprised if you're rightwing to hear
me say it's the activist judges that
ruin this country and so but what you
don't realize is that they're activists
in on behalf of Corporations and they've
they've given them every advantage and
the average American no Advantage so it
drives me crazy anyway when it comes to
to they say oh we're worried that the
Chinese government can get our private
information so we're not worried that
Zuckerberg can get our private
information because he has the same
exact access from meta and you know
Instagram Facebook so we're not worried
that Elon can have our information he
has the same access as Tik Tok does on X
right so wait are we worried about the
private information being in the hands
of XY or Z or are we not worried about
it no that's not what this is about
there's
there's a couple of the real reasons for
the Tik Tok band number one and this is
not speculation and it's not a
conspiracy theory Mitt Romney told
Anthony blinkin and Anthony blinkin
agreed it's on tape and we've shown it
several times on The Young Turks he said
yeah the Israelis used to be really good
at PR I don't know what happened and now
now they're losing the pr battle so
that's why we got to go after Tik Tock
and I was like I can't believe he just
said it okay so and there's been and the
ADL put out a statement saying there's
all these things that are Pro
Palestinian and only the small amount
that are pro-israel so Tik tok's a real
problem no brother that's not a problem
the problem is that Israel is
slaughtering the Palestinians and people
are upset about it and they're making
normal videos and they're showing it the
problem is that you can't control the
message anymore and it's driving you
freaking crazy so the real country that
is has a much larger factor in Tik Tok
is not China it's Israel so and you have
to remember Netanyahu is a war criminal
despised by the whole world and deeply
unpopular everywhere including in Israel
and our you know 80% of our politicians
give him standing ovation after Standing
Ovation why APAC poured in hundreds of
millions of dollars to buy our Congress
Washington is occupied territory they're
not going after Tic Tac because of China
they're going Tic Tac after because of
Israel but that's not the only reason
secondly and Scott Galloway made this
point I got it from him and I think it
was a real brilliant point I hadn't
thought of it
before there's a huge regulatory
overhang over Tik Tock meaning that its
price is artificially uh depressed by
about 25% you could dis agree or
disagree on the percentage but you get
it why because the government is
constantly threatening to ban it once
that regulatory overhang is lifted it's
going to go up about 25% in value that
is at a bare minimum1 billion at a bare
bare bare minimum right so at the minute
an American corporation or a wealthy
American buys it
they make 1020 billion dollar overnight
so every American corporation which
again Washington's occupied territory
they're owned by corporations every
corporation say oh yeah China's a real
national security threat hey you guys
all do business with
China you guys all sell cars and all
this stuff and you import stuff well if
it's such a national security threat why
are you doing business with them no no
no no no no no they got to sell it they
got to sell who should they sell it to
me yeah that's what I thought that's
what I thought so it's a giant scam for
some Corporation or wealthy person in
America to make an unbelievable amount
of money plus it helps Israel to ban Tik
Tok so that's the real reasons now let's
say that it was a um an Israeli owned
company and they were pumping in
pro-israel content would it make sense
to you then to say hey this is a foreign
National that owns this we think they're
using it to manipulate our youth would
you then agree like yo we've got to get
get this out of foreign ownership wow
what a wild hypothetical were American
Media companies might be on working on
behalf of Israel I just can't wrap my
head head around it I that's every other
Media company in the country it's not
because they're owned by Israel it's the
group think again Israel is our beloved
special Ally blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah that's why shut up
and give me your money I got to send it
over to Israel okay and we've been doing
that we've now sent $300 billion doll to
Israel Jesus Christ when is it enough so
I don't want people to go down a dark
path and blame religion or anything like
that and get into conspiracy theories
it's just simple logic if you allow
for complete bribery you're goingon to
have complete bribery and what I can't I
I'm amazed that other knucklehead
countries haven't figured out what the
same thing Israel does you got a Chinese
National here you got a Saudi national
here they're American citizens right but
they originally came or they just relate
you know empathize with Saudi Arabia or
Peru pick a country right and you just
get them because they can give unlimited
bribes to American politicians thanks to
the Supreme Court you get to give the
them $200 million and then they give the
politicians $200 million and then you
own this country Peru can buy America
any country can buy America Israel was
just smart enough to do it so I mean I I
don't hate the player I hate the game
right so now to your point though to the
core of what if a foreign government was
doing XYZ but if people really had that
legitimate concern and that was what was
driving them then wouldn't they be
concerned about all of the pro-israel
money going to buy our actual government
forget a company that might have access
to some of your information they have
access to the entire United States
government they have been bought locked
Stock and Barrel so if you actually
cared about a foreign influence all the
Russia people right the MSNBC and Rachel
matter oh Russia's going to control us
and in 2016 they had 4 million tweets so
I had other problems with Russia and
Trump but I was like I know they didn't
coordinate because Roger Stone tried to
find out information about whether the
Russians had hacked into Hillary Clinton
if they were coordinating he wouldn't
have tried to find out that information
right and then the government came in
with oh they had four million their
propaganda had four million impressions
on Twitter I was like that's Tuesday for
me like wow big Russian interference
right meanwhile Israel's pouring in
hundreds of millions of dollars to buy
our entire Congress and it was like I
don't see it I don't see it the real
problem is Russia the real problem is
China no [ __ ] they don't mean a word
of it so if you but okay even so you say
all right what should be what should we
do because China does have access to
that information we think potentially
although the servers are actually in
Texas
so okay then why don't we have a rule
that applies evenly and fairly to all
the social media companies so if you say
hey the owners of Tik Tok cannot access
this or cannot use the information for
that right then have it apply to
Facebook have it apply to YouTube have
it apply to X don't tell me no everybody
else can get your private information do
whatever the hell you like with it but
only Tik Tok can because I'm concerned
about China no then do fair and rules
for everyone what if the fair and even
rule broke along the lines of
um uh if they are a foreign company and
we are in I don't know what standing
they would put it in but I consider us
to be in a cold war with China so I may
be simply the person that is um totally
into that cover story but when I heard
that I was like oo that's actually
interesting I think the next 10 years
are really going to be like the 80s with
us in Russia uh and especially given the
weakness of the dollar because of all
the printing China is a pure competitor
economically uh they are in their own
region probably militarily stronger than
we are not globally but in their region
uh so it seems to me that there is
certainly reason to be thoughtful about
somebody that can map everybody's face
uh that can influence them with an
algorithm um but I'm not sure where I
fall on the Tik Tok issue and my whole
thinking is all about the China
connection not I'm not even thinking
about Israel no I hear you and look so I
don't want people to get obsessed about
Israel I'm just saying this one of many
factors and it shows the hypocrisy right
but
um but Elon Musk can have the same
access and he is the largest donor
to the president of the United States
that seems to also be a giant problem
but we say oh no since he's an American
the problem disappears it doesn't really
we're just choosing not to focus on that
we're choosing to focus on Tik Tock so
on China I'm not in the same place you
are I'm a realist about China uh but I
don't think we have to go to a Cold War
a hot War we don't I don't know why
we're constantly talking about the
military why do we why don't we just
have an economic battle with China why
do we have to have a military battle
with China hopefully that's all it ever
is yeah I don't want like why are we
demagoguing why are Chinese Communist
Party they're not communist they haven't
been communist in a long time right so
uh it they have centralized planning but
they have these giant corporations that
are making tons and tons of money
everybody's getting rich in China now we
got a middle class so do you throw
Communists in there to rile people up oh
they're the evil enemy and stuff look no
they're looking out for their own
self-interest they're very good at
looking out for their own self-interest
we have to be clear eyed about that and
I think a lot of politicians before
Trump and this is one of the things I'll
give Trump credit for he's actually you
know negotiating on our behalf and he's
using our leverage and he's pushing back
so that I like and I've been you know
and I call that out on on tyt as well so
if you said China comes in and goes all
right I'm gonna give put these tariffs
on you and I'm GNA support my industry
by pouring in this much money into my
industry and then we're going to drive
Pices down and then we're going to
bankrupt you and then we're going to
take you over well then you do exactly
what they do you Mirror Image so I'm not
saying don't worry about it I'm not
saying they're not a competitor I'm not
saying we shouldn't respond to their
unfair practices I'm saying why don't we
just do the same exact thing back at
them without escalating without talking
about the military without demagoguing
and Etc just kick their ass economically
right and and let's have a real battle
and and I believe in America I I don't I
think in the long run China's not our
not really our top competitor at all I
think look I maybe this makes me more of
a capitalist than than the average
right- Winger or whatever the labels
aren't that important but I believe in
capitalism and I think centralized
planning in the long run is a terrible
idea in the short run it can be
spectacularly successful as you know
China just showed with Incredible growth
uh in a tiny amount of time that's what
centralized planning is great at but
over time it breeds endless corruption
an endless wrong decision because you're
not using the wisdom of the crowd yeah
right you're you and anytime you have a
gatekeeper making decisions it's always
wrong I wrote an email to my friends in
1998 saying online video will beat
television and that at that point online
video barely existed that's very preing
and then we started Young Turks to do
online video back in 2002 we were the
first YouTube Partner longest running
internet show why am I telling that in
the context of of China because the
reason I had that belief was because I
knew that The Gatekeepers in
entertainment were not very good at
their job and that it's that the wisdom
of the crowd would always beat The
Gatekeepers and what i realiz is in
online video there aren't going to be
Gatekeepers especially at least for a
long long time and the wisdom of the
crowd is going to elevate the best host
right and give you the most compelling
content and that turned out to be true
same thing for China versus America
their centralized planning might do
great in the beginning but it'll fall
apart and their biggest Advantage will
turn into their biggest disadvantage our
actual competitor 50 years from now is
India India has enormous energy enormous
entrepreneurial
Spirit uh there it's a beautiful and
disastrous chaos right it's got huge
upsides huge downsides within that
chaotic energy in India but India is
going to rise up and be bigger than
China and be our real competitor that's
my opinion that's GNA be interesting uh
talk to me about the sigil herd around
the world from Elon Musk how do you read
that uh goofy signal dog
whistle no so I don't think he's a Nazi
I don't even think it's a dog whistle
but I I do think it was intentional I
think it was trolling uh it was spectac
case of trolling he wanted the attention
Elon has decided and it's not an in
necessarily an incorrect decision that
the most valuable commodity in America
is attention and that's why he massively
overpaid for X because he was he wanted
it so bad because he understands it has
the mother load of the commodity that he
wants attention and so what are we
talking about after the inauguration we
barely talked about the executive orders
we didn't talk about Trump speech at all
but we are talking about what Elon did
okay and when you troll you build in
plausible deniability oh I was touching
my heart oh you know I'm a little
awkward and so here I can prove my
credibility because I've defended the
right-wing actors before when like Laura
Ingram for example raised our arms at
the RNC and people like oh that looks
like a Nazi salute I'm like guys anyone
who raises their arm at any kind of
angle can look like a Nazi salute she
didn't she didn't do a Nazi salute that
wasn't even close so in this case though
man he snapped that thing I mean that
was right out of 1930s Germany and if
that was an accidental autistic moment
of
exuberance holy cow what a coincidence
that it turned into something that looks
identical to the
sigy Nazi salute right so I I think what
is more logical and likely is that he
thought about it and he thought if I put
my heart in fact he does it twice if you
watch the second version of the clip so
he does it to the crowd that's the one
that everybody sees and then there's
another video where he turns around to
the people behind the podium and does it
again and Anna and I disagreed about
this on The Young Turks but I the way
that I saw it he didn't put his hand on
his heart when he did the second one and
he forgot that he was supposed to do
that for his excuse so after he
appointed the second time then he put
his hand on his heart right and so I
it's I nitpicking that particular part
but overall I think it
was epic trolling not in a good way you
don't don't do that you don't need to do
that you don't need to do that what what
do you all right you've got enough
attention for God's sake it's enough
right so but I know people get super
touchy about it oh and in fact I said
this online got attacked by both sides
okay why because because the right-wing
tribe says you said Nazi you everybody
always calls us Nazis I hate you it's
[ __ ] he didn't do it he didn't knew
it he he was just oh my heart my warm
heart it was about all right guys if you
believe it God bless your heart okay and
then the leftwing said what do you mean
he's not a Nazi what do you mean he's
just trolling he's definitely a Nazi if
you don't call him a Nazi you're you're
on the rightwing you that's it we knew
it you love Trump and you're giving Elon
an excuse and you're not calling him a
Nazi when everybody knows he's a Nazi
that's so interesting to me to me it
really did just look like this super
awkward guy doing uh like heart version
of a blown kiss I I had no idea like I
watched it didn't make my radar had no
idea and then the next day saw the huboo
about it very very fascinating our frame
of reference controls not only what we
look at but what we see yeah Tom I say
one last thing about that no one
actually knows right the only person who
knows is Elon so if you say and I got
into this debate on Piers this morning
if you say hey Jen you're reading his
mind but you're also reading his mind no
100% right you're reading and I'm not
saying you in particular I'm saying the
people who think he that he he wasn't
doing it on purpose I am for sure yeah
they're saying I assume he had good
intent I assume he didn't mean to do it
to get attention and I'm assuming he did
it to get attention but we're both
assuming we don't know we're just going
based on our experience our perspective
and what it looked like to us no doubt
chank this has been a lot of fun man
thank you so much where can people
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part of our community awesome man well
thank you for taking the time today boys
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friends be legendary take care peace if
you like this conversation check out
this episode to learn more tomorrow the
president is going to get a briefing
from the CIA on his desk what should be
in that
briefing that's a great question uh it's
it's going to be uh a different briefing
than it was yesterday which is it goes
without saying but at the same time what
we're