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what's up guys Tom Bilu here and this
week we're doing something a little bit
different with the election right around
the corner I wanted to do something
special and really cut through the noise
so we're bringing in some of the
sharpest Minds from both sides of the
aisle to answer two simple questions in
addition to our normal robust interview
what I want to capture with these
interviews are the values and beliefs
that drive my guests voting choices and
then give them a chance to tell you why
you should vote the same way each guest
is going to to break down the reasoning
and make their case the goal here is
simple to help you guys think for
yourselves using the same first
principles thinking that all of us
should rely on no BS just straight talk
with that let's kick things off with our
first guest David
Pac-Man how would you feel very much out
of curiosity how would you feel if Trump
wins this election by a
landslide uh how would I feel I mean how
how honest do you want me to be
as honest as you're prepared to be if if
Trump wins this election by a landslide
I'm going to have from the standpoint of
my business a very very good four years
and uh I know that some people will hear
that they will say David how can that be
your reaction when it will be dystopian
in so many ways well I can't control
that right I mean I I I don't think
Trump will win in a landslide I think
either Trump loses the popular vote and
wins the electoral vote by a little bit
or Harris wins in a landslide I I think
that those are the that's the spectrum
of outcomes I think but no I mean I
think there will be tens of millions of
people so horrified that they will
rightly say I want to find a community
that I can identify with that matches my
values Etc and I think Progressive
Independent Media will absolutely
explode that's my that's my prediction
would that be an indication of something
that is more broken in the country than
you previous thought or no it's just
let's focus on the good my genuine
belief is that if you sit me down with
Trump
voters if I start talking to them and
learning more about them the vast
majority have misidentified that a trump
presidency would be good for them I I
think that there's a lot of people that
are just confused and I think that if
Trump wins by a landslide it can we
could have multiple things going on at
once I think it will have been a failure
by the Harris uh uh campaign there's no
doubt you can't just say Trump won by a
landslide even though kamla Harris did
everything perfectly just because people
are dumb I that that I don't think that
that would be true if you can't defeat
this guy after Joe Biden defeated him in
2020 and then you know you find out he's
stacking classified documents around his
toilet and he's been convicted on 34
counts and he was found you know civil
liable for sexually assaulting a woman
and then defaming her and he still
doesn't understand how tariffs work and
his brain doesn't seem to be working too
well if you can't beat him you can't
just blame the voters that would be very
wrong you have to also blame K Harris
and also I think that my my view of a
lot of trump voters who wrongly think
they he'd be good for them is also true
if you had to pick a North star for
people what what would you want to see
people aiming at like when they go to
vote what should be the thing that
they're trying to accomplish or when
they spend a lifetime creating and
adding to a culture what should they be
aiming for and I can speak to myself
when I think about voting in November I
definitely think
about what will the country look like
that my daughter will live in X number
of years from now if Trump gets four
years to realign the ship versus if
kamla Harris gets four years to realign
the ship and so for me the Trump vision
is quite scary when it comes to women's
bodily autonomy a lack of a respect for
institutions and public education and
the rule of law and all of those
different things that kind of scares me
in terms of like projected out not just
four years but even Beyond when I see
KLA Harris it seems very uncontroversial
I I know that that you probably from
what we've talked about would would not
expect her to deal with debt in the way
that I understand you would like to see
it dealt with but there's nothing that
scares me about it it seems relatively
uncontroversial the way that the Biden
Administration has been there's a
respect for the rule of law there's a
respect for institutions countries that
are historical allies will be able to
more or less trust that if they get into
an agreement or treaty with us uh that
that uh the Parris Administration would
stick with it so so it's sort of like a
very general approach of what's the
world going to be like for my daughter
if a or b is the next
president all right uh what would the
world look like if Trump or president
for your
daughter what path that on the areas I
mentioned would be of significant
concern do we do we have press Freedom
or does Trump get to take the licenses
of the media Outlets he doesn't like and
therefore my daughter doesn't even have
the diversity of media that we have
today but rather the media that the
President says is okay if she were to
need Family Planning services or
whatever the case may be is there going
to be Trump or a guy that looks and
sounds like Trump between her and
medical professionals that's terrifying
what will public education look like if
someone like Trump is able to either do
away with the Department of Education or
replace the the employees with the
partisan hacks I mean I think those are
the things that scare
me and a lot of people when they hear
people talk like that about Trump the
first question out of their mouth is we
had four years with them what makes you
think that this is going to be so much
worse this time is it just that he
doesn't have another term to worry about
and he can go Hog Wild I think it's
there there's a bunch of different
things and to be clear I'm not saying
the world will end if Trump is President
right I'm to just I'm trying to keep it
sober and realistic I think yes he will
be uninhibited by having no reelection
concern number two I think there's
something going on with him cognitively
and he has no idea what's going on so I
would very much worry about about that
and not so much that he would do crazy
things but just that the extremists that
would be around him giving him ideas
would be suggesting really wild and
wacky stuff and then number three that
he's making a lot of extreme promises
that he didn't make last time and I
think we have to trust that he's really
going to try to do these things when he
said okay MSNBC maybe will be kicked off
the air and then ABC should have their
broadcast license removed because I was
fact checked twice during a debate right
I think he will probably try to do that
I think he probably will try to round up
millions of of immigrants in these
militarized camps and then Deport them I
think he uh uh will oversee further
repression of um uh women's bodily
autonomy Family Planning contraceptives
Etc I I think he's going to try to
replace uh bureaucrats with loyalists so
so I I just I believe he's going to do
the things he says he's going to
do who do you think would be better from
a foreign policy
perspective I think KLA Harris would be
better from a foreign policy perspective
how do you think she'll handle um
Ukraine Russia I think she will handle
it by keeping boots on the ground as
something the US is not going to do
which I agree with and I'm I'm glad that
that's been the case so far I think she
will continue funding
Ukraine uh with military equipment that
we are often contractually obligated to
replace every X number of years anyway
uh because I think it's been a really
good deal I mean if you think back two
years um you know there were headlines
to two weeks until Putin takes keev
inevitable Ukraine will fall and for
like 1% of the military budget we have
been able to fund a resistance to this
Invasion by Putin such that there have
even been points during which little
bits you know the the front was moved
into Russian territory uh by Ukrainian
troops it's been an insanely good deal
financially with no boots on the ground
and you you know our old equipment to uh
push back against an authoritarian who's
trying to illegally take land so that
makes a lot of sense to
me so for people that are more populist
they want an America First agenda um do
you think that that's just ill advised
and the that America needs to play some
sort of um International cop role no I
don't think the US has to play an
international cop role uh and in fact I
think if you think back to the George W
bush presidency the neocon approach
which I disagreed with was we need to be
the international cops we need to be the
cops in Afghanistan and we need to be
the cops in Iraq no no I don't agree
with that at all I am very much an
anti-authoritarian I don't like these
strong men dictator types whether it's
Putin or or Bon or whoever I don't I
don't like any of them uh Ukraine is an
ally and also
represents you know sort of this um Lial
space in a sense between the East and
and Western Europe and I think that
Ukraine is the victim of this illegal
Invasion From Russia so given that a lot
of this equipment is old anyway and
we're going to be getting rid of it it
it just seems obvious that we would say
here have this stuff and try to push
back against this
authoritarian so uh if we're not trying
to play the role of cop why don't we
just let play out what's going to play
out between the Ukraine and Russia well
not not being not being a global police
officer doesn't mean we just ignore when
our allies are under attack or that we
you know one of the things foreign
policy-wise that I really very much
disliked about Trump is no sense of
responsibility to agreements that we've
entered into for example you know when
Trump came in and said well we're at did
the Iran deal even though Iran didn't
actually violate it just because I don't
like it and I want to undo something
Obama did and we're out of Paris climate
and I don't even know that I'd come to
the shared defense of NATO allies
because I don't think that they're
paying enough or whatever the case may
be I think that that's really dangerous
because it makes the United States
completely unreliable as a global
negotiating partner why would anyone
take any Administration seriously not
just Trump why would anyone take any
Administration seriously if they know
hey you know what depending on even if
we sign something depending on who wins
and who's President next year he or she
might just go ah I don't want to do that
I'm I'm canceling it so it's not about
we just are Global cops everywhere but
Ukraine's an ally there's NATO
discussion happening there there's a
shared NATO interest and a shared
Western Europe interest I I think it's
more narrow than that and again I would
not support boots on the ground so I
think there's also a huge difference
between boots on the ground and they get
our old equipment and are doing really
effective things with it and how would
you manage the public perception
obviously for a lot of people call it
half of the voting public uh they don't
want to see us involved in that you've
also got things going on in Israel
Palestine that's become wildly
unpopular uh I if the noise I suppose
can be believed um how would you want to
see that managed whether by Trump or by
Harris well the the public perception
has two sides to it there are people who
I would argue as a result of populist
roric to some degree have been lulled
into sort of thinking that some of these
authoritarian strong men and dictators
really aren't that bad you know we did
some interviews at uh Trump rallies
where our correspondent would say would
you vote for Putin or Biden this is when
Biden was still the candidate would you
vote for Putin or Biden if those were
the options for American president and a
bunch of these Trump supporters said to
our said to our guy I would vote for
Putin so to those people I don't think
it's about perception management right
they've just I think that for whatever
reason either either because they're
they're moral compass is upside down or
they're confused or as you you said they
are dumb um they have ended up in a
place where they think that it's better
for the United States to say I want
Putin over Biden I don't think that
that's about perception management I
think I for the record I can feel that I
need to put this uh addendum here uh I
did not say specifically who was dumb
I'm just saying some people fall below
an IQ level there are dumb voters that's
all I'm saying everybody you're just
making and by the way my my take is
everyone should be allowed to vote I'm G
to be very clear I may be in the dumb
half that's or not it's not even half I
can feel the number of times You' said
that David Pacman I thought oh good lord
you were making a statistical analysis
that when you a bell curve there's
people on both sides of the media and
that's all you were saying correct there
you go thank you um okay so the people
that just are enamored with Putin you're
not going to be able to really convince
them I do think that saying there
there's a lot of people who believe that
we're sending billions of dollars in
cash to Ukraine and then they go why are
we sending cash to Ukraine instead of
you know housing homeless veterans
there's two answers to that one is the
money for Ukraine and the money for
homeless veterans are allocated through
compl completely different processes and
there's actually no way to take the
money from one to the other secondly a
lot of the people that say that don't
actually want to spend the money to
house the homeless veterans so they they
actually are just saying that uh to
troll but number three it's mostly old
military equipment so it's not even cash
I think it's important to tell people
that a lot of people don't know that
they think we're sending billions in
cash it seems counterintuitive though
that you couldn't shut off the funding
from one place and allocate it somewhere
else what do you mean we couldn't do
that well no you're right that if our
entire House of Representatives worked
differently than it does you absolutely
could do that but what I'm saying is
that these are votes that are coming at
the end of long processes where these
are different buckets of money they're
allocated differently they're voted on
differently there There's no practical
way when we're saying let's do X for
Ukraine to go actually let's do it for
the homeless veterans instead they're
just different budgetary processes
different departments you you have to
start that process at the top
got it understood that makes sense I
wish it were
different don't we both uh okay talk to
me about immigration so this basket of
goods is is a lot of people are feeling
some kind of way they feel uh not seen
not heard that we're importing a bunch
of people into the country but like you
said we're not taking care of the
veterans whether they mean it or not um
that is certainly the sentiment the
border is a a pretty hot button issue um
how should that be handled and who do
you think would be better in this
election uh for doing the Border in a
way you think is sensible okay
so I think your audience will get sick
of me saying this I think kamla Harris
would do a better job than Donald Trump
Trump's plan has been biggest
deportations ever militarized
deportations put people in camps before
they are deported you know this kind of
sort of thing however what I will say is
that neither party has had a big
accomplishment when it comes to the
immigration reform that we need I mean
President Obama didn't either and
there's a lot of different things going
on here first of all like as a
disclaimer for people in your audience
who don't know me however you would
define an open border a quote open
border I don't support nor am I
advocating for an open border nor do I
believe that we have one now it is true
that people come into the United States
legally that happened when Trump was
president when Obama was President when
Bush was president when Clinton people
enter the United States illegally is it
always the same number it is not always
the same number there's seasonality to
it uh it's very much affected by the
state of the economy in the country's
people are coming from um so you know I
I my instinct is I'm quite reasonable on
this issue I think there's a couple
things that are important to mention a
lot of the stories that are told about
immigration uh by Trump and Maga are
stories that are deliberately lurid and
uh sort of salacious in order to trigger
those fear centers in the brain that we
talked about a couple of hours ago and
it's working quite well and I think it's
important to be able to say two things
at the same time the United States and
whatever country have a right to enforce
immigration policy to stop people from
entering the country illegally to deport
people who are here illegally that is
absolutely the case it's also really
important to understand that without
immigrants both documented and
undocumented the American economy would
significantly suffer entire Industries
would be significantly hurt um both
documented and undocumented immigrants
commit crime at lower rates than us-born
citizens and so the story about
dangerous migrants and and so on it's
not that sometimes migrants or
immigrants or legal undocumented
immigrants don't commit crimes yes they
do every group commits crimes little old
ladies sometimes commit crimes right but
the the point is that the the focus on
this as a disproportionate problem is
inaccurate and also um Republicans and
to a degree Democrats have not
successfully put together a package that
includes do some stuff on the border I'm
fine with border stuff but also we have
to deal with Visa overstays we have to
actually go after the companies hiring
the undocumented immigrants which is
against the law but is very rarely
actually
prosecuted um we have to probably you
know you I think that from some of the
things you said you're concerned about
population decline there are really good
studies that show the US actually needs
to be bringing in Far More legal
immigrants uh both for Innovation and
growth purposes than what's currently
coming in some estimates are we should
be uh uh inviting in three million
rather than 1 million a year um so you
know I think that this is a very
complicated issue but we've got to do
something about those who were brought
here as children by their parents uh and
give them some kind of permanent status
that's I think critically important just
because it it's the ethical thing to do
um so there's multiple multiple
components to this but I don't really
think that we're getting an honest
discussion about it for a lot of
different
reasons you said something that
surprised me why are undocumented
workers critical to our economy there
are um a number of this is not to
stereotype but it's it's just the data
that Agriculture and Food Service are
significantly bolstered by undocumented
immigrants um who are of course
overwhelming ly just people looking to
make some money uh to support their
their families and there is no real
Accounting in these Deport 20 million
people phrases from Trump as to what we
do about those
Industries but why can't we get a system
set up such that the same kind of people
that are coming through are
documented yeah there there's there's no
reason that you couldn't but it's not
going to happen if you Deport you know
know I I say 20 million because Trump
says 20 million I don't there's not
actually that's not actually the number
but the the point is you you would
instantly have industry collapse could
you fix it eventually of course uh but
it that's that's going to take a long
time it's sort of like when people say
bring all the manufacturing here from
China sure yes here's how long it'll
take and here's how much more your stuff
will cost these things can be done uh
but not not
quickly and what do you think about
assimilation do does a country invite a
certain amount of um societal conflict
if they are bringing in people so
quickly that they recluster around the
Home Country uh the home ideals all of
that rather than um assimilating into
the nation they' just gone to whether
here or in Europe obviously we're seeing
a lot of weird stuff happen in Europe um
which as an outsider sort of glancing at
the headlines feels like it's an
assimilation problem largely what do you
mean by assimilation I guess would be my
question so if you come to America we
obviously are not um any one ethnic
group we are a bunch of people that are
completely mixed and if you come here by
my estimation and you believe in uh
freedom of speech you believe in Freedom
of opportunity and you want to celebrate
people that are striving for excellence
all the things that I would consider
core American values then I think you
would be embraced and that nobody would
care what you look like because we share
values so I have a base assumption that
where people Collide and where trouble
arises is not about the surface level
thing the surface level thing just
happens to be a proxy in most places
other than other than the US for value
system do we share values I think people
very quickly attach to people that share
their values regardless of what the
surface presentation is so but if people
come regardless of what they look like
and they don't share those values now
you're going to see people Collide I
guess I'm wondering what some examples
of not sharing values what is what does
it look like at the kind of day-to-day
interpersonal
level uh so one would be uh if you've
got people that are coming in and saying
um I believe that London should be run
with Sharia law okay you actually have
people saying that out on the streets
that's a collision of values that is
very much not what the average person
who grew up in England is going to be
thinking about but nonetheless there are
people who feel who who are there now
and they do want to see that happen so
they haven't necessarily assimilated
into British culture become a part of
that they have brought what they think
is better from their culture to this new
place and saying hey this is better and
I would love to see it here and so it's
inevitable I think that given how much
people fear change and that they just
have an affinity towards what they know
and what they love just as the other
people have an affinity for what they
know and what they love and those things
are now colliding and so you're going to
have a coll Collision of visions of
where we go from here and I think about
that a lot there was a speech that the
woman in um Sweden gave I think it was
Sweden where she said basically Sweden
has values and anybody that doesn't want
to um join in these values has no place
here that that is a terrible paraphrase
hopefully you know it better than I but
that was the rough direction of what she
was saying okay yeah I think I get a
sense for what you're saying I mean
listen the so there's two there's two
answers to this I don't want to skip
over the fact that a lot of times they
don't share our values is
disproportionately applied to people who
aren't white or aren't Christian so I
want to acknowledge that I want to go
beyond that that's not a super
interesting conversation to me there's
racism and xenophobia anywhere and I
think in white majority countries it's
usually code for I'm envisioning a
non-white person I talk about this I'm
putting that on the record because I
think it's the case but I want to move
Beyond it because I think there's more
interesting stuff to talk about here I'm
from Argentina so I'm Hispanic and I'm
Jewish I have Affinity groups I'm a
member of in the US that are Jewish
based and I have Affinity groups in the
United States that I'm associated with
that are groups of argentinians
yesterday I was at the White House in DC
for Hispanic Heritage Month
uh and so that's not just argentinians
but it's you know everybody from from
the Spanish-speaking world and so these
are all groups that I heavily identify
with but I think the shared values
you're talking about with which I've
been able to succeed in the US include I
did learn the language when I moved to
the United States and I believe in
democracy I believe in religion being
separate from government interestingly
there's a lot of American born
evangelicals some of whom are in
currently in government who actually
want religion to play a bigger role in
in civil government I actually think
that that's unconstitutional I don't
want that it's not a question of
assimilation with them I think it's just
radical belief so you don't have to come
from another country to have such a
belief and maybe we'll talk about that
but to the degree that we're not using
these terms as proxies for racism or
xenophobia I do think that it's not so
much about uh the the surface level but
it is about values I also think that we
project sometimes false beliefs about
people's values based on the way they
look the way they dress or the way they
talk do you think uh all of that I agree
with every word of that my only concern
is that just like my father-in-law was
very worried that coming from such a
different background as than his
daughter that we wouldn't be able to
navigate the difficulties of marriage
because in his mind we didn't share he
wouldn't have said values but you don't
share enough in common and what my wife
and I found was despite having these
wildly different backgrounds we actually
did share values so we had these same
very um a a group of very meaningful
ways of believing how the world ought to
be that we shared and that made us
getting along very easy what were the
background
differences so she is um Greek cypriate
from London uh fleu Greek the whole nine
her parents had to or I should say uh
when Greece sorry when Cyprus was
invaded by the Turks a bunch of people
fled uh and they her both of her parents
left around that time they weren't
directly impacted her mother-in-law was
like literally had to evacuate her house
thought she was going to be a refugee
for a weekend ended up being a refugee
for the rest of her life uh and had to
leave everything behind ended up coming
to England anyway so um very fascinating
Mass migration out of Cyprus into
England so there's a huge Greek
population so not only am I not Greek
which for him with the thick accent and
you know moves in his I think late 20s
um for him it was very jarring that I
was an American that wasn't religious
and he had raised his daughter to be
Greek Orthodox and obviously in a Greek
family and speaking Greek and so he
starts thinking oh man these guys aren't
gonna make it and look I I guess I don't
blame him he started thinking that my
grandchildren which unfortunately he
never got any but my grandchildren
aren't going to be Greek fully will they
even speak Greek and so um he had a lot
of anxiety not my father-in-law is the
most lovely human being ever and
welcomed me with open arms but he was
very tense about that and that was one
of the reasons why he actually said that
I did not have his Blessing to Mar's
daughter while still being lovely to me
it's very important that I say that but
anyway that was my first like thing of
like oh whoa like values really matter
thankfully we shared values despite all
the surface differences which is another
reason for me that is the issue but I'm
not surprised when I see groups that
don't share values clashing yeah I think
I think some of the most predictive
factors to whether one will succeed and
the funny thing is this doesn't just
apply to immigrants this is also just
like you know to people in Ohio I think
it applies to to to Americans as well is
sort of like do you respect the rule of
law and social norms
um are you adaptable to a
culture that may be different or may
change over time right because sometimes
it's not oh I was born into one culture
and I immigrated into another one but
sometimes it's like this conservative
resistance to the fact that culture can
change over time I think that's similar
and that that kind of applies to people
who were born in the United States I
think for countries where immigration is
a thing and it's a Melting Pot
tolerating and respecting diversity it's
probably a factor right and this applies
again if you were born in Nashville or
if you came here from Dubai either way
that tolerance for diversity is probably
a factor that will that will be sort of
predictive of success to some reason um
and you know this starts to get polit
more overtly political in a way but in
the United States we at least have the
idea of racial and gender equality and
so if someone doesn't believe in that
whether you're born here or because you
came from a country where that's not the
case that that seems like a clash that
could be problematic so I think these
are mostly values things the way you're
pointing out yeah that's my entire point
but do you think that there is like if
you were designing immigration policy is
rate of acquisition of immigrants a
factor it seems important to me that
there's some sensible amount that you
can take in in a year and that you need
to Define that and then stick to it I I
tend to agree with that and where you
might have variances or kind of more
flexible numbers would be if we decide
that we are going to be a country that
wants to be a safe haven for Asylum
Seekers we would also say we can't
predict every Global Calamity that might
generate refugees so you might say that
that may not be as closely defined or we
might have a more flexible upper limit
but here's like the standard we would
apply for a adjudicating Asylum claims I
think that's less predictable where it's
more predictable is where a lot of the
new population science is going on the
population decline stuff which is in
order to remain competitive and maintain
economic growth which maybe we want to
do maybe we don't maybe at some point
like you said the growth has to stop but
if we want to continue the growth we
probably do want to be bringing more uh
people from certain fields and with
certain um uh uh areas of expertise in
order to remain competitive and those
numbers probably should be higher than
where they are right now if you're
concerned about population decline
you're the only person I've ever heard
say that he has something going on
cognitively what is it that makes you
think that bunch of different things
none of these opinions mine these are
all mental health and neurology and
Alzheimer's dementia professionals who
I've interviewed and who have written
extensively about this so I I would not
just come up with this you know without
having interviewed a bunch of different
people there actually so much and in
fact I think it's been a disservice to
the American people that corporate media
is only now kind of starting to tell
this story uh if you look at Trump's um
verbal patterns over the last 4 8 12 16
20 years there is a incredible reduction
in his vocabulary the number of
different words that he uses uh and
repetition and a bunch of other signs
that are typically concerning number two
two he regularly gets basic facts about
the world around him completely wrong
he's talked about how Barack Obama is
President many times he's talked about
how he defeated Barack Obama when he ran
for president he's talked about how
Nikki Haley was in charge of Capital
Security on January 6th when it was
actually Nancy Pelosi he uh does
everything from not noticing that either
Rudy Giuliani is in front of him or
Melania is next to him when Melania used
to be next to him she she's missing of
course she's no longer with Trump at
anything public but when she used to go
he would look around for her wouldn't
see her he has these uh cognitive kind
of lapses during rallies where he seems
almost like he freezes and there are
dozens of these people can look at the
videos on my YouTube channel uh which
have been identified Again by mental
health professionals as uh sometimes
paraphasia pheic paraphasia so on and so
forth he will often get wrong uh the
city that he's in he will uh it's it's
we could do three hours just on Trump's
cognitive gaffs now I don't want to
pretend that I'm saying he has
absolutely no idea where he is or or
anything like that but he's close to
80 he's very overweight his speech
patterns are a concern I mean to me he
doesn't even seem fit for the
job and what's your take on Biden is he
is Trump as bad as Biden what's going on
with Biden seems different Biden is
definitely experiencing age related
decline there's no doubt about it and
this is not partisan for me people can
go to my YouTube channel and see my
commentary on Biden's debate performance
I made it clear I don't think Biden's up
to it I made it clear I don't think
Biden can win and it seems inevitable
that he's going to have to be replaced
uh yeah B Biden is also experiencing age
related decline I think the difference
is Biden notices when he's made a
mistake and Trump tends not to he will
steamroll right through the wrong City
that he's in Biden might get us into
World War II it's like wait a second
World War II already happened I defeated
Obama no no what are you talking about
you ran against Hillary I don't even
know what you're talk and he doesn't
even recognize that the thing he's
saying don't make sense Biden definitely
is having uh a Slowdown he does seem to
recognize when he makes these mistakes
um so yeah I mean listen I Biden is
absolutely also uh experiencing age
related symptoms for sure and I think it
was 100% the right thing for him to say
I'm not going to run for
reelection now are you less tense about
Biden and what's happening to him
cognitively than you are Trump setting
aside Trump like I know there's a whole
host of reasons that you don't want
Trump but just from cognition to
cognition are you more worried about
Biden's abilities or Trump's I'm less
worried about about Biden only because
his presidency is almost over his ego is
not so out of control that he's
insisting that he can and will do this
uh contrary to what's going on to Donald
Trump and also nothing concerning has
happened for the three plus years that
he's been president with regard to you
know as presidents have extraordinarily
large teams that are doing most of the
actual drafting of policy and so on and
so forth and I know we don't necessarily
agree about the state of the economy but
I think the economy has basically been
fine our relationships with allies have
basically been fine the withdrawal from
Afghanistan which I agreed with whether
it was Trump or Biden doing it was
chaotic but it was the right thing to do
in other words there's no like oh my
goodness here's what went completely
Haywire because of Biden's age related
Decline and we've just got a couple
months left where I'm like listen we're
we're almost Beyond
this now given the state that Biden's in
do you think that he should hand the
torch off to Harris immediately not from
every mental health and neurology
professional I've spoken to they've all
indicated there there's really no you
know he gets he gets tired earlier than
younger people for example loses his
train of thought sometimes Etc but that
doesn't signify uh anything that would
approach like the 25th amendment that
can be used if you believe the president
is unfit in fact I just saw Biden in
person the other day he looked very old
he was getting around really
gingerly but he gave a speech and then
spoke to people for a while and it was
like okay yeah I mean you're you're
probably too old to do another four
years but it there was nothing like you
need to resign right
now um what do you think it says about
our current political system that we
have two candidates running for
president that uh did not go through any
sort of primary process and the guy
that's currently in office is uh moving
around very gingerly I think you're
being overly generous in your assessment
of Biden just to plant my own flag but
uh what do you think it says about our
system that again you've got one person
that is debatable in terms of his
ability to even get around and then You'
got the other two never did a primary
very
funny uh so let's take each piece by
piece so in general like old can Cates
we do have sort of a gerontocracy here
in the United States it's interesting
because pop culture is very much
oriented towards young people and
against older people I mean product
Services most commercials it's it's all
like we're clearly targeting everything
to let's get young people using it and
then everybody else will just kind of
sort of follow so in one sense we have a
society that's kind of biased against
older folks but at the same time you
look at the average age in the US Senate
and it's dramatically High higher than
the median age you've got sen I don't
know if you have anyone in their 90s
right now but certainly close grassley's
got to be close if he's not in his 90s
Patrick Ley Etc so I think that there is
this um sort of gerent cracy as as the
term may be with regard to elected
officials part of it can be just sort of
like path dependent we're on this path
it's easier to get reelected than it is
elected and so people tend to be able to
kind of stay in power at least in the in
This House and Senate uh and we ended up
with um with presidential candidates
along the same lines the no primary
thing there was a Republican primary
it's just that the Republican party has
been completely subjugated by Maga at
this point so it was like no one really
had a shot other than Trump but they did
do a primary uh on the Biden side
there's never a primary when the
incumbent is running for reelection the
one thing I would say is KLA Harris did
two things that I do think matter in
this entire thing number one it was even
though it was only nominally a primary
like I say you know in 2020 with trump
it was the same thing there was
nominally a primary but there wasn't
really a primary Harris was on the
ticket that won that nominal primary it
was Biden Harris it wasn't like let's
bring in some state senator from
Oklahoma uh who wasn't even on the
ticket it was Biden Harris that those
who voted in the nominal primary voted
for so at least she was there but she
did go and seek the support of the
Democratic delegates um and you could
say well what were they going to say no
maybe I don't know but but she did do
that and so my message to people who are
like I don't like how she ended up being
the candidate I would say well then
don't vote for her most people aren't
having a problem with that when Jordan
Peterson I have no idea how you feel
about him but uh I've been very
interested by him for a long time uh
when he stopped being the internet's dad
and he started being religious I was
super surprised about it at first I had
no idea what that represented what it
was about um and then the more closely I
looked at it I actually started thinking
whoa I think this actually is a
continuation of that same thing so first
it's you know the really basic stuff
pick up your room like be prepared to
carry your weight and then it's getting
into this more advanced sense of um
understand that religion is the ultimate
meme medium by which I
are carried to people and so there's all
this wisdom in the Bible and then at
first it seemed like he didn't really
believe it was literally true but
thought it was useful and then it seems
to have gone to no I think this is
actually literally true and then I look
at Candice Owens and the wave that she's
riding around just really focusing on
religion and all of this paints a
picture for me of uh a now move and I
don't know if it's going to be everybody
or if it's just the right but uh a move
towards religion in a way that is going
to make it one of the the defining
cultural
um topics of the next call it three
years do you see a similar move
happening and if so what do you make of
it well it's less about whether I see it
but it's more about what the data show
and the Pew religion survey religiosity
survey which is kind of the gold
standard on this shows people in the US
continuing to move away from religion so
trying to take my opinion out of it the
data don't show that I do think that I
mean you know the other day Tucker
Carlson did an event where Russell Brand
was literally on his knees praying on
stage with Tucker he was recently
baptized and he found religion and all
of this stuff so I think that it's
becoming kind of uh Vogue in a certain
right-wing space right now to find your
religion once again it's not super
interesting to me personally but I don't
see it more more people than ever
identify as not religious in the United
States so I I don't see that uh the
trend you're kind of signaling is is
based in
fact interesting so um I will
Repose what I'm seeing and see if this
lands so I don't have a sense of the um
the total scale so you have been very um
careful to get people to delineate the
people that we know support Trump are
50% of the voting public um so cool it
might be it is a a subset that happens
to be making this switch but this subset
is utterly fascinating to me the fact
that it's happening the fact that this
is becoming like uh I mean Candace is
last check she was either two or three
on the most popular podcasts this is
obviously a Core theme for her it's one
of the organizing principles and so I
look at that and say there's something
about this is gaining a lot of energy
now I have a hypothesis about what it is
I think this is really one of the big
problems that people are suffering from
right now is a lack of meaning and
purpose and I think meaning and purpose
drives a lot and in all of these um in
the uptick and suicides the number one
word that you find is people saying I
feel useless and so you you have this
generation that is really feeling unored
they're they don't have anything to
attach to and religion is providing them
with that Anchor Point um not just
morally but just it it is an anchor
point it gives them something to
identify with to hold on to that um is
is giving them something clearly
positive and so to me it's what it's
highlighting is that lack of meaning and
purpose and that there is this readymade
thing that has lasted for God knows how
many thousands of years
um that has been able to transmit these
ideas very
rapidly so let's see um Candace's
podcast is the eighth most listened to
right-wing podcast to be to be precise
that's Edison research which is usually
I think the the kind of go-to Source on
this I think that there's a couple
different things going on I do think
it's true that there are people who for
the first time are finding meaning in
religion there are more people leaving
religion than finding it so but but
you're absolutely right that there are
people finding meaning in religion for
some of these people I think it's a
grift uh I'll give you an example I
don't believe for a second that Donald
Trump is religious he hasn't been to
church for three years he last went to
church three years ago um for some there
was some political reason that he went
and yet he claims that his faith is
important and all these different things
he's very obviously not religious he
came up with I'm religious because he
was going to be the Republican nominee
he needed to win over Evangelical so
like that's an example of someone who is
who went to religion it's a complete and
total grift I don't believe it for a
second there are some who unfortunately
I think are struggling with mental
illness and sometimes you find a cult
sometimes you find a drug sometimes you
find religion and sometimes you find a
diet right I mean sometimes people
decide I either need to be eating only
nuts or eating only pmms or eating only
fried eggs or and it's a substitute for
there's a Calamity in your life and
you've identified the thing that is kind
of going to fix it for you for some
people that's religion and then some
people I presume genuinely it's just
giving them meaning and and purpose and
that I think that that's fine my view on
this has kind of always been I
understand and really respect the
evolutionary purpose that religion
served
especially in in the past uh Robin
Dunbar has written about this in a way
that I think is really interesting to to
read about and so have others um I think
it's less necessary right now as we
learn more about how the world Works
empirically and I basically have no
problem like you know some there's some
people on the left who will say to me
David how how are you so tolerant of
religion when it's like how are we going
to agree about global warming if you
think that there was a boat built that
had two of every species it's like yeah
listen it's it is completely
incompatible but to the extent that
people just have like they have their
private religious beliefs and with
regard to What government policy should
be we're just talking about empiricism
science and what can be demonstrated I
don't really care what they believe you
know in the same way that like yeah Flat
Earth maybe connects to some other wacky
stuff it's not necessarily isolated if
someone just has an isolated Flat Earth
belief if we can work together on some
other issue where we do agree on what
the facts are I'm not going to reject
them I want as many people in the
Coalition kind of as possible so I try
to take the view that to the extent that
people are keeping their religion
private not trying to impose it or use
it to determine government
policy it's been around for a long time
and it'll probably continue to be
although at a diminishing rate it seems
and fine kind of believe what you want
under those
circumstances and do you think that as
religion continues to dissipate that
more and more people will feel a lack of
meaning and purpose or do you think that
there'll be a ready-made way other than
religion for them to get that well I
don't know that it's readymade but I I
don't attribute the lack of meaning and
purpose to lack of religiosity
necessarily there's so much going on in
society including that we've reduced
abject poverty so much especially in you
know globally there's still a lot of
abject poverty in the United States
there there's arguably less than ever a
standard of living goes up as people not
everybody we still have poverty but as
as more people have the flexibility to
figure out what do I want to do
sometimes there's like this Paradox of
choice and and the more options you have
the more difficult it can actually be to
figure out what is Meaningful uh I think
it's more about that I think it's about
keeping up with the Joneses as
facilitated by social media I think
there's a lot of explanations for lack
of meaning and purpose but I I don't
think the the decline in religion is the
explanation at least I've not seen a
good argument for that David Pacman this
has been uh very enjoyable we may not
agree on everything but you are very
articulate uh you certainly seem
reasonable except for your assessment of
Biden uh tell me where people can follow
you uh I'm on all the different social
media platforms uh so you could just
search my name YouTube is probably my
biggest platform right now but I've got
an audio podcast if you prefer that
format or Tik Tok or whatever the case
may be and then I also have a Bookout
coming out in a few months called the
echo machine where I write about a lot
of the things you and I have talked
about it's available for pre-order so
for people who prefer to read There is
that option as well thanks for joining
me today for this deep dive with David
Pacman this is just the beginning of our
special election series and I hope you
guys will join us for all of the
thought-provoking conversations that we
have coming up every day if you're
finding any value make sure that you hit
that follow button so you don't miss any
of it appreciate you guys listening as
always stay curious my friends and I
will see you on the next one until then
be legendary if you like this
conversation check out this episode to
learn more the financial cliff that
we're rapidly driving off uh is is
pretty terrifying um there you know it's
not just the $35 trillion in debt or the
fact that um that interest on the debt
is now overtaking the budget