Kind: captions
Language: en
groups that are allied with Iran
primarily Hezbollah and Lebanon um have
accumulated a certain level of military
strength that they're no longer
intimidated by Israel some of what I
might say today might be outside of the
bounds of what we usually hear in
mainstream discourse that is only true
in an American context I don't think
we've ever tried meaningful pressure on
Israel before October 7th Gaza has been
an open air prison there was a young
Palestinian child holding the hand of
his mother and of his grandmother and
the grandmother is waving a white flag
and they're walking perfectly obviously
not posing any threat an Israeli sniper
takes out the grandmother the child goes
running off no accountability for that
kind of instance this is really crazy
what the are you guys doing the
Israeli argument is no no we said fine
we're going to give you a Palestinian
state but when you look at the maps of
what was offered it's basically swiss
cheese is this a land dispute or is this
a moral
question I don't think that those are
mutually exclusive in this case when we
talk about who started it the people
who's denying freedom to another people
is by definition the aggressor because
that's the dynamic between
[Music]
them Omar badar welcome to the show
thank you very much glad to be here dude
glad to have you let me ask it does not
seem like we are getting any closer to a
ceasefire between Israel and Gaza and it
seems like things might even be heating
up now in the north with Lebanon um do
you think this war is going to
spread I think it is very likely that
this war is going to spread but if I can
set up a little bit of context uh before
we dive deeper into the topic is to say
that there's something paradoxical
happening in that Palestine and Israel
more broadly is one of the most covered
topics in our media discourse and yet
one of the least understood and that's
in large part because the quality of
that coverage is incredibly terrible and
there is a by Nome Chomsky that I like
who was talking about how you control
thought to some extent and it's about
controlling the range of the debate
setting the parameters and the limits to
it and then encouraging a lot of lively
argument and and disagreement even more
inflammatory disagreement within that
range so the audience gets the sense
that they are getting a real debate
about the topic when in reality they're
getting an extremely small slice of it
under the impression that free thought
is going on and yet certain views that
are beyond that Spectrum are immediately
dismissed as Kookie and I suspect that
this is a problem on a wide range of
issues right domestic issues whatever
there's like the Republican point of
view the Democratic point of view
there's an argument about it when it
comes to American foreign policy we
don't have really a wide range of debate
it is effectively the same policy
regardless of who's in charge Trump
being an exception we can get into that
also at some point but American policy
on this question does not make sense it
is completely out of sync with the
values that we profess and as a result
media discourse on it is devoid of any
context and therefore people can't make
sense of what they're seeing apart from
knowing that they're seeing something
that is obviously horrible and tragic
and violent um without being able to
make more sense of it and so I would
suggest that even though some of what I
might say today might be outside of the
bounds of what we usually hear in
mainstream discourse that is only true
in an American cont context and that a
lot of what I would say today if you say
it outside the United States it's Frank
practically self-evident and I'm happy
to back it with a lot more detail as
well so just setting that as a context
and saying this war is very likely going
to spread because the United States has
a broken relationship with Israel and
it's a dynamic in which we are the
patron State we provide Israel with
nearly unlimited military funding
unlimited diplomatic support billions
upon billions of no country receives as
much military funding from from the
United States like Israel does
diplomatically the US keeps intervening
at the United Nations vetoing an
incredible amount of un resolutions to
try to Shield Israel from International
accountability and that created a
climate in which Israel can do whatever
it wants and Israel is not on a healthy
path Israel is on a destructive path and
by allowing them to behave however they
want imposing a rule over Palestinians
now for decades in which they rule
Palestinians without granting them any
rights no chance for estate no chance
for equal rights to Israelis it's just
perpetually subject under military
occupation and apartheid that is a
recipe for violence and we've seen the
outcome of that we've seen violence
explode at different times most recently
in October and everything that followed
and American policy has yet to change
it's still a cart blanch for Israel to
do whatever it wants and Israel is just
moving towards further and further
Regional escalation and I think that
things are moving in a really really
dangerous Direction at this point all
right so we will certainly get in and
begin teasing out the the setting of the
stage in terms of how we got here uh I
think a lot of conversations get bogged
down there so first I want to start with
especially for my audience who really
wants to understand uh how does the
world work how do things like this play
out how does this impact me which is
something I think that would be really
interesting to hear you address um but
we will certainly go there I've actually
mapped out what I think are your base
assumptions which we talked about off
camera but it would be good for me to
see if I'm close um but what what will
be the mechanism of escalation here how
do you see this playing out so we have a
dynamic right now in which Israel is
insistent on a victory that can be
achieved within reasonable proportion in
Gaza they said that they are going to
forcibly destroy Hamas forcibly retrieve
the hostages and it'll be an Israeli
Victory the end everybody lives happily
ever after after um that is not in the
cards right now it's clear that a year
in that Israel has killed far more
hostages than it has rescued not even
close and in the process has destroyed
the entire Gaza Strip frankly people
talk as about this as if it's collateral
damage from my perspective I'm almost
certain that this is an intentional
process that in the in the face of not
being able to achieve any kind of
victory over Hamas knowing they're
deeply dug in that the alternative
they're pursuing right now is uh one of
mass annihilation in Gaza making Gaza
unlivable as a means of eventually
getting at Hamas way down the road and
that's not a morally acceptable position
that's not an internationally acceptable
position that we watch an entire
population get devastated the way people
in Gaza are children being killed by the
tens of thousands they in 90% of the
population of Gaza displaced at this
point and still no end to this war and
so there is building Regional tension
other countries that are saying we don't
want a full war with Israel everybody
understands that Israel is a very
militarily powerful country that has the
backing of the United States the most
powerful country in the world nobody
wants a fullscale confrontation with
Israel and yet there are parties in the
region that are saying we also can't sit
quietly and just watch this unfold
forever and so they're pushing back
they're wrapping up the pressure very
gradually and Israel got so used to a
dynamic of dominance in the region
that the idea that there are now other
parties in the region that are willing
to poke at Israel militarily is
something that Israel finds unacceptable
and they're determined not through
behaving reasonably not through
negotiations and a reasonable agreement
with neighboring countries and a
ceasefire in Gaza but through brute
military force to restore a dynamic in
which Israel is in charge in the region
and everybody knows their place and
stays quiet and backs off when Israel
gets angry and the balance of power has
shifted to a point to where that's also
not viable and therefore the
confrontation at this point is
inevitable how is the balance of power
shifted uh groups that are allied with
Iran primarily Hezbollah and Lebanon um
have accumulated a certain level of
military strength that they're no longer
intimidated by Israel there is mutual
assured destruction between Hezbollah
and Israel it's a balance of deterrence
in which a full out War means Israel can
destroy all of Lebanon and probably
would but Hezbollah has a capacity to do
the same with Israeli cities as well and
so nobody wants that full-scale war to
happen both sides are extremely
tentative about the prospect of going
there because the mass destruction would
just be absolutely devastating to both
countries and yet the reasonable
alternative is a ceasefire in Gaza which
hasbalah has said that would end
everything that we're doing up on the
northern border or the alternative is
seeing that confrontation through and
what we've been witnessing for months
now is that gradual buildup of that
confrontation getting more and more
intense every day and we can imagine
what The Logical conclusion of that is
well I think the logical conclusion is
the very thing that seems uncertain
based on what you just said so um you
maybe gave me hope this could be
possibly delusion but you said that if
if I understood you correctly that
Hezbollah actually could be the fire
break needed if the goal is to stop
Israel then you need somebody of equal
power that can check them now eventually
I'm going to want to get into um Iran's
role and all of this because obviously I
as an entrepreneur this is how I always
speak to my team a Leader's job is to
take a lot of dots and connect them and
that connection is the narrative and you
need to intoxicate people with certainty
in order to give them directions so they
know how to act um I think that as
pundits that's also people's job so you
in particular anyone else had on the
shows talked about this their job is to
articulate for people hopefully what
they consider the most honest and
forthright picture I don't think people
are lying but their job is to say all of
these disperate dots that you the person
who's sort of um just now getting
introduced to this you probably don't
know how they connect let me connect
them for you but this conflict more than
any other conflict people will connect
the the same dots but they tell wildly
different narratives okay so uh peeling
back those layers is is going to be
difficult but for now what I want to do
is understand your narrative I have no
interest in challenging it until I
understand it and maybe then I'll just
like yes word um but what I just heard
is Hezbollah may be the fire break that
we need that Israel is going to finally
hit a point where uh they don't want
that they don't want to go to conflict
with them because it they could destroy
Israeli cities as well okay y now if if
that's true but you still worry that
this is going to escalate what is it
that's going on from the Israeli frame
of reference that would make challenging
Hezbollah make enough sense to suffer
the damage that would inevitably Reign
upon Israeli cities yeah it's I think
from my perspective a pathology that has
existed um in Israel for a very very
long time the idea that the only way to
survive and thrive at as a Jewish state
in the Middle East is to do it um By The
Sword is to do it you know by
threatening everybody around you at the
end of a barrel of a gun and that is how
they've done it so far and it has
largely worked out for them except
obviously there is never any kind of
Perpetual peace or stability as a result
of that because there is a fundamental
Injustice that is also ongoing with all
of that which is the fact that from
Israel's founding Israel was founded at
the expense of another people right when
people talk about the concept of a
Jewish state or Zionism in the abstract
that's a perfectly fine sentiment to say
especially obviously we know the context
after World War II to say that you want
the Jewish State there's no opposition
to that in principle the problem comes
when you decide you want the Jewish
State at the expense of another people
that already exists on a land and to
make displacing them and taking over
that Land part of that project then you
have a problem and so from Israel's
creation it was at the expense of
literally hundreds of Palestinian towns
and Villages that were just completely
obliterated and destroyed
and hundreds of thousands of
Palestinians who were driven out of
their lands and then you had a state of
Israel and then later on there was
additional Regional tension Israel
expands itself to the occupied
Palestinian territories the West Bank
Gaza and East Jerusalem takes over those
areas by force as well but something
different happens here in that the
International Community says wait a
second this takeover of those areas
that's not legitimate you can't just
Annex those areas and claim that those
are part of Israel th that's occup
territory that Israel is obligated to
withdraw from and that pushed us to the
possibility of a peace process at some
point in the late 80s and early 90s in
which Palestinians came to understand
that they are the weaker party and that
they're forced to come to some sort of
compromise and they engaged in the
so-called two-state solution
negotiations with the idea that Israel
would remain as it was established in
1948 on nearly 80% of the land and
Palestinians would only get a state in
the West Bank Gaza and East Jerusalem
and Israel did the exact opposite of
what it was supposed to it said that it
was committed to a two-state solution
but it was obviously insincere because
on the ground all Israel did is expand
more and more illegal settlements on top
of Palestinians and in the process
Palestinians who lived there lived under
Israeli military dictatorship they had
no rights so you look at the West Bank
today where there are illegal Israeli
settlements directly right next to
Palestinian Villages the Israeli
settlers live under Israeli law they
live in democracy they have full voting
rights they have full mobility and the
Palestinians who live directly next to
them they have no rights they don't have
enough water for their towns and
Villages they don't get to vote for the
government that controls their lives
they are effectively subjects and when
you look at the kind of violence and
abuses that they endure as a matter of
status quo I'm not even talking about
moments in which violence escalates and
we've got an outbreak of a war or
anything like that but just the daily
existence of Palestinians under
occupation is just unspeakable brutality
Palestinian children are systematically
processed through the Israeli military
system and thrown in detention where
they are routinely tortured beaten up
that's daily life for Palestinians and
that's a situation of Injustice that is
Rip for conflict because people talk
about no justice no peace sometimes as
if it's just a slogan you know at a
protest when to me it's a much more
fundamental description of human nature
that in any situation in which you don't
have Justice in which somebody is being
treated badly and people don't have
their basic rights you are setting up
the situation um in order for there not
to be peace in order for conflict to
ensue and that's exactly been the path
that we're on and we've ensured and when
I say we I'm talking about the United
States government with American money
ensured lack of accountability for
Israel throughout that entire thing so
we were speaking out of both sides of
our mouths we were saying we support a
two-state solution we support ending the
occupation we support a life of dignity
for Palestinians but the policy is
Israel is denying all these things to
Palestinians and our policy is to Shield
Israel from accountability at the United
Nations and to give Israel more and more
weapons to continue behaving however
it's behaving and that is why we're in
the situation that we're in today and
that's why you start seeing these parts
of the region that are bubbling up
looking for a means of resistance to an
existing status quo that is just utterly
unacceptable and set up for conflict so
back to your original question which is
then why is Israel finds itself now on
potentially the path of Confrontation
it's because we've nurtured an unhealthy
lack of account ility in Israel that the
thought that somebody else might push
back on them and that they might be
forced to behave in the region as an
equal rather than a dominant force that
can do whatever it wants and takes
whatever it wants is out of their normal
frame of reference and I'm concerned
that when you look at Israeli attitudes
among military experts there is a
concern of we should not expand this war
we should be careful uh hasah you know
this would not be a cakewalk we we would
suffer significant damage but the
political atmosphere and the political
culture in Israel is one that is really
pushing towards further confrontation
operating under the false belief that
all Israel has to do is just go in and
be Unleashed and then they'll put
everybody in their place and what I'm
hoping for is that the United States as
a country that has leverage over Israel
can behave you know when we talk friends
don't let friends drive drunk is to
understand that they're on a dangerous
path and for the US to intervene and put
an end to this before we have to find
out through Mass death throughout the
region through a regional War
okay so obviously a lot there um let's
start teasing some of this out so uh you
said that there's a pathology in the I
think you didn't use these words but
this is how I read it in the Israeli
mindset political culture I would say
Okay political culture um that violence
is the only way to get by um and one
question I would ask you is do you think
given the setup of everything that the
Jews have been been through over the
last 2,000 years especially given that
um the founding of Israel comes right
after World War II where for real for
real even America was like nope uh we're
not taking any more in uh they've just
been killed in the millions and now
they're like okay for real we need to go
somewhere we need to have a place we can
defend um do you have so my base
assumption is that history is a long
string of wars that peace is the anomaly
not war so when I see Israel if you are
right and this doesn't seem crazy to me
uh that Israel is saying we have to be
strong we've been weak for too long
we're now going to be strong draw a line
in the sand anybody messes with us and
we're going to push back um yeah like
that makes sense to me in terms of all
of human history yeah okay so do we if
if that really is true peace is the
anomaly while without I certainly don't
expect you to think that what they're
doing is okay or right because you're
coming at it uh where I think wouldn't
we all want peace to be the norm and
violence the anomaly and we have a
chance to do it in this modern era but
given all of that can you understand at
least from their frame of reference why
they would want to project
power I hope this is not reaching too
far out of the frame but let me answer
it this way so many things are part of
human nature uh the propensity for
violence greed we understand that these
things are natural and yet when we Face
the prospect of climate change we say we
have to intervene and put an end to
Greed and selfishness and work together
towards a bigger common good um that we
are somehow working against human nature
in some ways so by the same token I
would say that everything you described
is accurate this is um true that humans
have a propensity for violence and that
war is a constant and the fact that
after the experience of World War II on
the Holocaust that there would be people
who would think self-preservation at
cost no matter who pays the cost and how
the question for me is for us as
Outsiders who are not who we see
unhealthy Dynamics develop what is our
role are we contributing towards
negative pathologies that are leading
towards more death and conflict or
having not been in that position
directly ourselves and not having our
judgment clouded by these kinds of
attitudes that are trauma based what is
our role in this case and so for me I
always come back to the fact that the
United States has an opportunity here
you are the most powerful country in the
world you understand that there are all
kinds of traumas and Dynamics and
pathologies that are at work but we have
the chance to say international law
matters Israel has to behave within the
bounds of international law and that's a
way that you can lead to a better future
not just for Palestinians but for
Israelis too when you look at the
natural outcome of the way Israel has
been conducting itself it has also
resulted in thousands of dead Israelis
along the way so to even operate with
the interest even if you don't care
about Palestinians and you're more
interested in just making sure that
Israelis are safe and have a future it
seems that the road towards deescalation
and a reasonable peace agreement and
human rights being recognized all across
the board is actually good for everyone
so why not take advantage of the fact
that we are not living through that
trauma directly ourselves and we can
have influence policy in a much much
better Direction and the contrast of
that is not also just aspirational for
me it also comes down to moral
responsibility that
there is a responsibility that we should
Americans should spend their tax money
the money that we make in a way that the
population agrees with that we support
from my perspective it should be
primarily focused on helping Americans
in America we have all kinds of problems
here that are not dealt with we
constantly say that we don't have money
for Universal healthare we don't have
enough money for proper education or
free college or School laun Shore you
name it and yet we somehow have money to
send billions of dollars to an apartheid
regime that is imposing an illegal
occupation and at this point in Gaza
arguably in I would I would consider it
to to be reasonable to say engaged in
genocidal violence in Gaza is that the
best use of our money obviously not
that's not what the American people want
and there has to be a change because of
that if you want to reach your full
potential this year you have got to
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impact okay uh when talking about this
it can be almost impossible to not layer
on layer on layer and uh I I certainly
understand the complexities of this
issue I take a slightly different
approach which is there has to be a way
to simplify this to a path forward yeah
so everything we're going to do in our
time together hopefully is leading
towards building up based on what we
know to be true about both sides uh what
we know to be true about the
architecture of the human mind what we
know to be true about uh Power battles
on a global stage all of that that this
theoretical thing that we will talk
about is some point today uh at least
sort of has a chance is worth being
discussed okay so I say all of that
because I am going to try to tease these
issues out one at a time just to again
make sure that I understand the base
assumptions that are driving your
thinking um so what I hear is that
um there is massive precedent for the
for any society to believe that one must
project power because war is a constant
um however there we are living in a
unique moment where especially because
of America's role globally as sort of a
hegemonic power I think we're losing
that a little bit but let's say we're in
the tail end and we could still make use
of it uh that we could speak to what is
morally right and not just this old way
of thinking around power and projecting
power um and so the way that is
with uh what you called a cultural
pathology is acting right now it is this
throwback to a time where only
projecting power matters so they're
clamping down on uh the Palestinians in
the Gaza Strip because of an internal
thing to the architecture of the human
mind as long as they are keeping them
locked down and they don't have freedoms
they are going to fight back and with
that
Injustice peace is fundamentally
impossible to achieve I think that is
correct I would add one thing is that
it's not all based on it's not all
fear-based that we have to project power
because of the potential alternative
there's frankly a significant segment of
Israeli Society uh particularly on the
far right where there is an arrogance of
power it's not fear-based that if we do
this then that might happen it's knowing
that they have the power and capacity to
take over the entire land and they are
proceeding accordingly the expansion of
settlements for example in the West Bank
that's not a security measure putting
Israeli civilians in the middle of
Palestinian population centers that's
not a security measure you are only
doing it because you want to expand your
ter your your territory and in this case
it's the belief that Israel is already
so powerful that there essentially there
are no consequences to to behaving
however they want to and
therefore having a Messianic view that
involves Israel capturing the entire
territory from the river from The River
To The Sea means we can carry on this
Poli polic of expanding more and more
Israeli settlements confining
Palestinians to smaller and smaller
areas and hoping that eventually either
they go away or we don't have to deal
with them anymore so I just yeah I I
don't want to overplay the idea that in
Israeli psychology this is all born out
of a sense of vulnerability because
there is obviously um a part of it in
which you see the endless taunting of
Israeli soldiers you you see it in the
videos that they post of themselves in
Gaza the amount of fun and pleasure they
are taking and the destruction of
Palestinian Society is something that I
think is really really horrific and we
barely get a window of that watching
kind of mainstream coverage of the issue
okay uh so I will certainly agree that
no country's intentions are ever going
to be pure uh when you're in America it
gets pretty easy to see that um yeah
people came here kicked ass and took
over and that that is um ugly and
horrifying and also gave birth to every
everything that I have known and loved
and so it is this incredibly weird yeah
uh can I interject on just this
particular Point you're again your
description is correct right but we we
operate right now under the assumption
that that's just the thing of the past
this is the outcome of it now but if it
were to happen again today surely we
would not do the same thing surely we
recognize that the genocide of Native
Americans was wrong that slavery was
wrong that Jim Crow was wrong we operate
under this idea that we've made cultural
Evolution here and yet we're in a moment
in which we're watching
another country do that and instead of
saying hey this is our moment to rectify
our sins of the past we're saying more
power to you go ahead and do it in the
present not as a historical event that
you can reflect on and say was it for
good or bad but a process that is
currently unfolding where Palestinian
Society is being destroyed before our
eyes and our response to it is not just
to sit on the sidelines but to actually
arm and fund that process okay but that
assumes everybody shares your frame of
reference so your frame of reference is
certainly internally consistent I think
it will be very difficult for me or
anybody else to be like hahaa like
you're contradicting yourself here you
certainly have taken dots you've
connected them in a way that make a lot
of sense I'm able to track it I can
repeat it back to you um so that says
there's a wellth thought out internally
consistent thing now this is where me as
the entrepreneur I just can't help
myself I start going okay but what's our
desired outcome and how are we going to
get there so what we haven't looked at
so I think you've done a very good job
of giving a frame of reference for how
to look at uh the Israelis that is um
replete with all of the grotesque
elements of the human psyche that I do
not think is unique to Israelis I think
Alexander Soulja niten said it best when
he said the line between good and evil
runs through every human heart I think
people have beautiful intent and then 3
seconds later horrific intent and also
which is which will determine who you're
talking to and what frame of reference
they have uh because obviously if you're
um if you're the parent of somebody who
was kidnapped on October 7th like yeah
you're here for some violence you're
here to blow people's heads off a th%
and I think we are hardwired to feel
that way to want to protect our own over
everything else I get it so anyway all
of that is going to matter a lot but now
I think that we have to ask the question
so if the Israeli impulse is not pure so
some of it is like and let's even say
that in the beginning it was mostly like
hey we really need a place to protect
ourselves but then sort of quickly got
weird I'm totally fine with that uh but
do you think there is any weirdness on
the Hamas side does Hamas have pure
intentions or are they equally a mix of
I want to do good but also I'm living in
Qatar I'm a billionaire while a lot of
my people are just in abject poverty
yeah with Hamas in particular um it's
worth asking how they came about and I
think that that can give us a lot of
answers we can kind of like track the
evolution of them they came about as a
result of the occupation Israel took
over the Palestinian territories denied
people rights there and that frustration
naturally builds into militant
resistance now the Hamas particular
flavor flavor happens to be a religious
one it happens to be Islamic resistance
to occupation and this need to Rel a
religiously motivated need to say that
only violence is we liberate ourselves a
lot of rhetoric about what was taken
away from by violence can only be
retrieved by violence and so on and for
me it becomes a question it's not it's
not about whether individual people
within Hamas are are well motivated or
not it's about the fact that why did
this become a draw for people when did
they gain support and to me the relevant
part the the the from a practical
perspective when we're talking about
where we're going moving forward is to
say that when Palestinians believed in
the prospect of a Palestinian state that
is free from Israeli occupation that
Israel was seriously interested in
ending the occupation at the beginning
of the peace process Hamas they had
virtually no support among Palestinians
they were trying to derail the peace
talks by setting off bombs uh you know
carrying out suicide bombings in the in
in the 90s and so on and there was
Palestinian opposition to them it is
only when it became absolutely clear
that Israel is not actually genuinely
interested in ending the occupation and
that what they were doing is playing
this game that the entire so-called
peace process was a sham and Israel kept
expanding more and more settlements and
entrenching the occupation and making
clear that there is no future in which
Palestinians are free in their land is
when Hamas their popularity grew
significantly and so looking at Hamas
Fighters now in Gaza I'm sure it ranges
from people who are genuinely interested
in fighting as a means of resistance
because they want to be free and maybe
people whose motivations are even far
beyond that maybe individuals who you
know like whatever they're might be
motivated by whatever religious ideas
that they have on top of that and are
capable of carrying out far worse
atrocities and there's no question that
Hamas has engaged in many many
atrocities as well any attack on
civilians is by definition a war crime
and Hamas has engaged in attacks on
civilians which you know just completely
indefensible so to me there's no
contradiction there we're looking at
pathologies once again playing out and
understanding that the reason why people
who pursue violence in Palestinian
Society have all the support is because
with us Unity we've made sure that
Israel has blocked every path for
peaceful resistance and that's what
drove them into that corner rather than
trying to analyze the individual
psychology of any particular member in
Hamas or the leadership or whatever um
it's the fact that Palestinians have
done negotiations that have fallen apart
they've done economic boycotts the US
has put enormous pressure to cut off the
boycotts they've gone to the UN the US
intervenes and make sure resolutions
don't pass and Palestinians in Gaza did
the uh March for return back in 2018 in
which they marched unarmed to the fence
separating Israel from Gaza saying we
don't want to be locked in this cage and
by the way that I think is a really
really important piece of context is
that before October 7th Gaza has been an
open air prison it's been a it's been a
cage for Palestinians they have no
airport they have no sea port
Palestinians can't go in and out they
can't trade with the outside world their
economy is in
shambles unemployment is at 50% they
were not living like human beings there
was no Prospect for a Palestinian parent
in Gaza to think I want a better future
for my child and to work towards a
better future for their child because
they were prisoners in this cage that
Israel imposed on them that the entire
world agreed was unlawful the UN every
major human rights organization said
this Siege is unlawful and Israel would
periodically carry out bombings in Gaza
that have killed again before October
7th hundreds of Palestinian children
throughout these bombings and so that's
the condition in which Palestinians
existed in they decided that unarmed
resistance is something that's worth
giving worth giving a shot to and so
they marched to the fence separating
Israel from Gaza and Israeli snipers
open fire into the crowd and if you read
human rights organizations's reports on
it it's talks about targeting of
children of journalists of Medics it's
just again a sense of complete and total
impunity that these soldiers can
effectively have fun with this horde
that is working towards them opening
fire completely dehumanizing them and
when you think of that being the last
last straw of every means of resistance
Palestinians tried there is absolutely
no surprise at the fact that Hamas is
able to recruit tens of thousands of
fighters in Gaza that is the natural
outcome of a situation that is
fundamentally unjust and drives people
to extreme Behavior okay this will be a
good point for me to plant a flag that
says I am aware of the counterarguments
on the other side I am uh given that I
am actually trying to make sense of what
I think is a useful path forward a I
have no desire to be in a debate B I'm
not a good debater so let's start with
that uh and then C what I'm trying to do
right now is really map out the base
assumptions that you have but I don't
want people to think because the
comments are going to be a light with no
no no they were sending over incendiary
balloons and all that and Tom he
doesn't know uh so I I am aware of those
things um but I think it's very useful
to understand your frame of reference
that um you see those as a last ditch
effort to test a peaceful uh approach to
this because one of the big things that
I wrote down even before we met that I
see as your base assumption is that uh
if you communicate to a people that they
will never be free they are going to
mount an armed resistance because they
have nothing left to lose um and so
again not trying to judge that just
trying to say okay cool I get where
you're coming from I I understand where
you're coming from I am able to piece
together your internal world View and
again say it back to you okay so uh dear
commenters if you've made it this far uh
that's not the place to put the pressure
so what we want to do I think uh for us
to have a path forward we must
understand the rough frames of reference
on each side understand why they are
colliding and in that reality knowing
what's actually happening yeah how do we
carve a path forward okay so uh Israel
has no right to put up a blockade I'm
I'm reiterating what I've heard you say
uh Israel has no right to put up a
blockade every peaceful thing that the
Palestinians have attempted has been met
with violence or just apathy so they
realize that's not going to work uh the
Israel uh the Israelis have a mixed bag
of motivations some fear and some just
arrogance of power uh and when you put
the Palestinian people in a situation
where they can't make life better for
themselves suddenly the only way to look
at your life is I'm in an open air
prison and so sure it's better than
being in a closed air prison but this is
still a dead end and I no longer have
hope for my children okay uh that
touches on one of my base assumptions
which is for things for Any Nation
literally Any Nation to move forward in
what I would consider a positive way
which I won't waste time defining that
right now but for Any Nation to move
forward in a positive way they need a uh
optimistic view of both the present and
the future they need a Vision an
honorable Vision again I have a
definition for that but I won't drag us
down in that right now but they need an
honor honorable vision for how to spend
their lives and how to make sure that
their children's lives are better and so
this is an area where if your frame of
reference is the right frame of
reference from which to look at this or
even if I just adopt it right or wrong
I'm like yeah I get it I get why if you
really believe you're the Palestinian on
the ground you did the March you were
super peaceful and you watched your
sister get her face blown off it's like
all of the sudden you're like okay well
I don't have any options left now again
I'm not saying that that frame of
reference is right I'm just saying if
you have that frame of reference then
suddenly You can predict the outcomes
that we're seeing now so again internal
consistency uh now I want to start
figuring out though what are the
motivations of Hamas like
what
pointedly would Hamas Moss be cool would
they agree to any um go forward status
that involved Israel as is today I think
that um Hamas sort of their strategy has
not been completely consistent and
coherent there are different times in
which they've suggested different things
and I think that part of it the
International Community could have
helped shape the direction in which
Hamas was going to move in so when they
started out they were completely
rejectionist they should not be in
Israel and armed resistance all the way
and it's kind of like very theologically
driven you know Messianic idea of of how
you achieve Liberation and over time
that actually has shifted and when they
won elections uh back in
2005 they or what 2006 after Israel
withdrew from Gaza they put out very
clear suggestions that they're willing
to moderate their leader khed mishal
published the piece in the Washington
Post talking about how
even though we don't like a two-state
solution if we put it to a referendum
and Palestinians accept it we're not
going to be the ones to obstruct it they
showed signs of moderation and
flexibility and in the face of that I
think if there was encouragement of that
um you could have had you could have
moved Hamas in a more pragmatic
Direction and why wasn't there
encouragement Israel responded
immediately by putting all of Gaza under
a tighter lockdown and said that Hamas
has three things they have to do if they
want to have to to change the status quo
they have to recognize Israel they have
to renounce violence and they have to
accept all previous agreements that the
Palestinian Authority had signed with
Israel now what's interesting about that
is that Israel does not recognize
Palestine so Israel was making a demand
of Hamas that Israel itself did not
reciprocate they had they reciprocated
would this have gone through I mean
that's really the the entire problem
with the with the two-state solution and
peace process is that everything was
given from one side and the other side
responded by just rejecting everything
by saying let's talk that was was the
game that that was played is hey let's
talk we're still negotiating let's
figure out the details so you think
Israel was being insincere completely
insincere just trying to keep the talks
going for absolutely they used that as
cover and that became much clearer later
on now is this because so I'm
formulating a again I said this off
camera so I'll say it on camera whenever
I'm talking to somebody I ask myself if
I were writing this person as a
character what would they need to
believe for them to say this or act in
this way uh it would make immediate
sense to me if you believe boys and
girls all Israel wants I don't care what
they say what they want is to ethnically
cleanse which is a fancy way of saying
they want to make all the Palestinians
leave and they want the whole area for
themselves they want East Jerusalem they
want uh the whole Gaza Strip like they
they just want it all uh and so no
matter what they do say whatever it is
all a um it's a smoke screen for what
they're really doing which is uh provoke
provoke provoke to get you to a attack
and then they have justification to
literally just level Gaza so that you
leave because you have no reason to be
there anymore because there's nothing
left uh and then they're going to take
it over and that's been the real desire
for God knows how long and the status
quo when these large violent outs spur
don't happen is not just you know the
the the provocation is that exact same
process just in slow motion what changes
is the scale and speed of it throughout
the so-called peace process again times
that are peaceful in which there isn't
an outbreak of Palestinian violence the
part where is Israel is pushing
Palestinians out of their homes in the
occupied territories and building
settlements and replacing one population
with another that's an ongoing process
that's the status quo and you know you
you mentioned a second ago when we were
talking about sort of anticipating what
the counterarguments are for how
peaceful Palestinians are I think people
can easily posit a counterargument that
is basically a smattering of acts of
violence by Palestinians well there was
this suicide bombing and there was this
rocket attack and there was this
incendiary balloon the point for me is
that what is the status quo when those
things are not happening it's not we're
not operating under two equal sides that
are both free that are they have a
border separating them and then one side
once you know launches a rocket or an
incendiary balloon the status quo is one
in which one population rules another in
which you have an occupier and an
occupied one people that is in charge of
everything and all the borders and all
the water and all the land and another
people who have to endure whatever is
imposed on them so even though you can
count you know you can point to random
instances of Palestinian violence and
they're certainly real and they're
obviously not all Justified because of
that distinction between civilian
targets and Military targets that
doesn't change the fact that the
fundamental reality the status quo is
one itself of Injustice so we play this
game of what came first and every time
you get into an argument about what
happened well they did this because of
that well they did this because of that
and you can have that timeline go back
forever and I'm not interested in
tracing that back that timeline back
forever if you want to trace it back
back forever it still starts with the
fact that Israel displaced Palestinians
to create Israel that to me is the
starting point but I don't think we have
to play that game of tracing it all the
way back we have a status quo and an
existing reality in which one people is
free and another people is not and so
whenever people talk about what's the
cause of violence obviously the cause
the starting point when we talk about
who started it the people who's denying
freedom to another people is by
definition the aggressor because that's
the dynamic between them okay so uh
could you ever see a world where
Palestinians would come to the table and
say um we think you're lying we think
you just want to take over everything
but here in front of the global
Community we would like to say uh we
renounce violence for the next 10 years
and at the end of that 10 years assuming
that there are no meaningful attacks
because we can't there's always going to
be some that does something
stupid but that there are no meaningful
attacks that uh all blockades are lifted
two State solution immediately let's go
let's go
um do you would that feel good would you
be like oh my God this is amazing this
is a step in the right direction yeah
that you're you're not describing a
fictional period you're describing a
real one which is the peace process that
is what the 199 was so I'm aware of that
was one of the things where they said
you have to um do that for 10 years but
what I'm trying to figure out is if your
response to that is are you out of your
mind you're you have no right to lock
these people up not not for 10 days not
for 10 years that's absurd or if you're
going to be like oh my God I would love
that so much that would be incredible
we've suffered for so long 10 years we
can get by like this would be yeah and
it's beyond what I feel right like for
me at the end of the day I'm not the one
suffering the consequences for it like
directly it's the people on the ground
and they accepted that framework they
said the occupation is going to
gradually end in the peace process that
Israel is going to be gradually pulling
back and Palestinians you have to just
show good faith you recognized Israel
now you have to build your institutions
and cracked down on violence and the
Palestinian Authority largely did what
Israel wanted of them there was as you
mentioned some on occasion who
would set off a bomb here or do an
attack there but by and large the
Palestinian Authority was praised by
Israeli leaders at the time for cracking
down on violence and for kind of like
going after and that was extremely
unpopular by the way with with a lot of
Palestinians too who felt how dare you
go after the people resisting occupation
and from the Palestinian authorities
perspective is listen this is the price
we have to pay in the meantime in order
to demonstrate that we are ready to have
a state and then maybe we can convince
Israel to allow us to have a state that
was the framework and it failed because
Israel was not genuinely interested in
it so get specific when did it fail what
happened in 1993 was the launch in 1988
Palestinians recognized Israel and then
there was the talks leading up to the
official peace process 1993 the Oslo
Peace process began that was based on
the idea that Israel was going to end
the occupation and Palestinians get to
have a state but within that there were
some details that Palestinians just
assumed good faith on the part of Israel
they said we're not going to like you
know take over all the West Bank but
there's going to be some natural growth
of settlements and the Palestinians said
yeah that's fine like if some settlement
expands a little bit here or there but
then what happened in the subsequent
seven years is the number of settlers
doubled like the the expansion of those
settlements it was not natural by any
stretch of the imagination it was Israel
transferring its population into the
occupied territories in violation of
international law and making clear that
there no Palestinian State that's going
to that that's going to be allowed to
exist viably at the end of that the
Israeli argument is no no we said fine
we're going to give you a Palestinian
state but when you look at the maps of
what was offered it's basically swiss
cheese it's it's areas Band Stand like
what you know what was basically what
black self-rule was in apartheid South
Africa it's these tiny isolated areas
and Israel's like you can call that a
state here you have a state but
obviously it was not viable had no
control of its borders Israel controlled
everything including cluding the water
resources and so on it just simply was
not viable to the point that Israel's
foreign minister at the time when the
things fell apart in in the year 2000
and you've had a Palestinian Uprising
the trigger of that Palestinian Uprising
was Ariel Chiron a war criminal by any
definition uh he was the Israel's
defense minister at the time walking
over into the Muslim part of Temple
Mount What's called the noble Sanctuary
where the Alam mosque and everything
surrounded by a thousand soldiers as a
show of saying we're never going to
relinquish Israeli control of of this
area and that triggered Palestinians to
throw rocks and shoes at them Israeli
soldiers opened fire killed seven
unarmed people and that just basically
sparked the Pale