Kind: captions
Language: en
groups that are allied with Iran
primarily Hezbollah and Lebanon um have
accumulated a certain level of military
strength that they're no longer
intimidated by Israel some of what I
might say today might be outside of the
bounds of what we usually hear in
mainstream discourse that is only true
in an American context I don't think
we've ever tried meaningful pressure on
Israel before October 7th Gaza has been
an open air prison there was a young
Palestinian child holding the hand of
his mother and of his grandmother and
the grandmother is waving a white flag
and they're walking perfectly obviously
not posing any threat an Israeli sniper
takes out the grandmother the child goes
running off no accountability for that
kind of instance this is really crazy
what the are you guys doing the
Israeli argument is no no we said fine
we're going to give you a Palestinian
state but when you look at the maps of
what was offered it's basically swiss
cheese is this a land dispute or is this
a moral
question I don't think that those are
mutually exclusive in this case when we
talk about who started it the people
who's denying freedom to another people
is by definition the aggressor because
that's the dynamic between
[Music]
them Omar badar welcome to the show
thank you very much glad to be here dude
glad to have you let me ask it does not
seem like we are getting any closer to a
ceasefire between Israel and Gaza and it
seems like things might even be heating
up now in the north with Lebanon um do
you think this war is going to
spread I think it is very likely that
this war is going to spread but if I can
set up a little bit of context uh before
we dive deeper into the topic is to say
that there's something paradoxical
happening in that Palestine and Israel
more broadly is one of the most covered
topics in our media discourse and yet
one of the least understood and that's
in large part because the quality of
that coverage is incredibly terrible and
there is a by Nome Chomsky that I like
who was talking about how you control
thought to some extent and it's about
controlling the range of the debate
setting the parameters and the limits to
it and then encouraging a lot of lively
argument and and disagreement even more
inflammatory disagreement within that
range so the audience gets the sense
that they are getting a real debate
about the topic when in reality they're
getting an extremely small slice of it
under the impression that free thought
is going on and yet certain views that
are beyond that Spectrum are immediately
dismissed as Kookie and I suspect that
this is a problem on a wide range of
issues right domestic issues whatever
there's like the Republican point of
view the Democratic point of view
there's an argument about it when it
comes to American foreign policy we
don't have really a wide range of debate
it is effectively the same policy
regardless of who's in charge Trump
being an exception we can get into that
also at some point but American policy
on this question does not make sense it
is completely out of sync with the
values that we profess and as a result
media discourse on it is devoid of any
context and therefore people can't make
sense of what they're seeing apart from
knowing that they're seeing something
that is obviously horrible and tragic
and violent um without being able to
make more sense of it and so I would
suggest that even though some of what I
might say today might be outside of the
bounds of what we usually hear in
mainstream discourse that is only true
in an American cont context and that a
lot of what I would say today if you say
it outside the United States it's Frank
practically self-evident and I'm happy
to back it with a lot more detail as
well so just setting that as a context
and saying this war is very likely going
to spread because the United States has
a broken relationship with Israel and
it's a dynamic in which we are the
patron State we provide Israel with
nearly unlimited military funding
unlimited diplomatic support billions
upon billions of no country receives as
much military funding from from the
United States like Israel does
diplomatically the US keeps intervening
at the United Nations vetoing an
incredible amount of un resolutions to
try to Shield Israel from International
accountability and that created a
climate in which Israel can do whatever
it wants and Israel is not on a healthy
path Israel is on a destructive path and
by allowing them to behave however they
want imposing a rule over Palestinians
now for decades in which they rule
Palestinians without granting them any
rights no chance for estate no chance
for equal rights to Israelis it's just
perpetually subject under military
occupation and apartheid that is a
recipe for violence and we've seen the
outcome of that we've seen violence
explode at different times most recently
in October and everything that followed
and American policy has yet to change
it's still a cart blanch for Israel to
do whatever it wants and Israel is just
moving towards further and further
Regional escalation and I think that
things are moving in a really really
dangerous Direction at this point all
right so we will certainly get in and
begin teasing out the the setting of the
stage in terms of how we got here uh I
think a lot of conversations get bogged
down there so first I want to start with
especially for my audience who really
wants to understand uh how does the
world work how do things like this play
out how does this impact me which is
something I think that would be really
interesting to hear you address um but
we will certainly go there I've actually
mapped out what I think are your base
assumptions which we talked about off
camera but it would be good for me to
see if I'm close um but what what will
be the mechanism of escalation here how
do you see this playing out so we have a
dynamic right now in which Israel is
insistent on a victory that can be
achieved within reasonable proportion in
Gaza they said that they are going to
forcibly destroy Hamas forcibly retrieve
the hostages and it'll be an Israeli
Victory the end everybody lives happily
ever after after um that is not in the
cards right now it's clear that a year
in that Israel has killed far more
hostages than it has rescued not even
close and in the process has destroyed
the entire Gaza Strip frankly people
talk as about this as if it's collateral
damage from my perspective I'm almost
certain that this is an intentional
process that in the in the face of not
being able to achieve any kind of
victory over Hamas knowing they're
deeply dug in that the alternative
they're pursuing right now is uh one of
mass annihilation in Gaza making Gaza
unlivable as a means of eventually
getting at Hamas way down the road and
that's not a morally acceptable position
that's not an internationally acceptable
position that we watch an entire
population get devastated the way people
in Gaza are children being killed by the
tens of thousands they in 90% of the
population of Gaza displaced at this
point and still no end to this war and
so there is building Regional tension
other countries that are saying we don't
want a full war with Israel everybody
understands that Israel is a very
militarily powerful country that has the
backing of the United States the most
powerful country in the world nobody
wants a fullscale confrontation with
Israel and yet there are parties in the
region that are saying we also can't sit
quietly and just watch this unfold
forever and so they're pushing back
they're wrapping up the pressure very
gradually and Israel got so used to a
dynamic of dominance in the region
that the idea that there are now other
parties in the region that are willing
to poke at Israel militarily is
something that Israel finds unacceptable
and they're determined not through
behaving reasonably not through
negotiations and a reasonable agreement
with neighboring countries and a
ceasefire in Gaza but through brute
military force to restore a dynamic in
which Israel is in charge in the region
and everybody knows their place and
stays quiet and backs off when Israel
gets angry and the balance of power has
shifted to a point to where that's also
not viable and therefore the
confrontation at this point is
inevitable how is the balance of power
shifted uh groups that are allied with
Iran primarily Hezbollah and Lebanon um
have accumulated a certain level of
military strength that they're no longer
intimidated by Israel there is mutual
assured destruction between Hezbollah
and Israel it's a balance of deterrence
in which a full out War means Israel can
destroy all of Lebanon and probably
would but Hezbollah has a capacity to do
the same with Israeli cities as well and
so nobody wants that full-scale war to
happen both sides are extremely
tentative about the prospect of going
there because the mass destruction would
just be absolutely devastating to both
countries and yet the reasonable
alternative is a ceasefire in Gaza which
hasbalah has said that would end
everything that we're doing up on the
northern border or the alternative is
seeing that confrontation through and
what we've been witnessing for months
now is that gradual buildup of that
confrontation getting more and more
intense every day and we can imagine
what The Logical conclusion of that is
well I think the logical conclusion is
the very thing that seems uncertain
based on what you just said so um you
maybe gave me hope this could be
possibly delusion but you said that if
if I understood you correctly that
Hezbollah actually could be the fire
break needed if the goal is to stop
Israel then you need somebody of equal
power that can check them now eventually
I'm going to want to get into um Iran's
role and all of this because obviously I
as an entrepreneur this is how I always
speak to my team a Leader's job is to
take a lot of dots and connect them and
that connection is the narrative and you
need to intoxicate people with certainty
in order to give them directions so they
know how to act um I think that as
pundits that's also people's job so you
in particular anyone else had on the
shows talked about this their job is to
articulate for people hopefully what
they consider the most honest and
forthright picture I don't think people
are lying but their job is to say all of
these disperate dots that you the person
who's sort of um just now getting
introduced to this you probably don't
know how they connect let me connect
them for you but this conflict more than
any other conflict people will connect
the the same dots but they tell wildly
different narratives okay so uh peeling
back those layers is is going to be
difficult but for now what I want to do
is understand your narrative I have no
interest in challenging it until I
understand it and maybe then I'll just
like yes word um but what I just heard
is Hezbollah may be the fire break that
we need that Israel is going to finally
hit a point where uh they don't want
that they don't want to go to conflict
with them because it they could destroy
Israeli cities as well okay y now if if
that's true but you still worry that
this is going to escalate what is it
that's going on from the Israeli frame
of reference that would make challenging
Hezbollah make enough sense to suffer
the damage that would inevitably Reign
upon Israeli cities yeah it's I think
from my perspective a pathology that has
existed um in Israel for a very very
long time the idea that the only way to
survive and thrive at as a Jewish state
in the Middle East is to do it um By The
Sword is to do it you know by
threatening everybody around you at the
end of a barrel of a gun and that is how
they've done it so far and it has
largely worked out for them except
obviously there is never any kind of
Perpetual peace or stability as a result
of that because there is a fundamental
Injustice that is also ongoing with all
of that which is the fact that from
Israel's founding Israel was founded at
the expense of another people right when
people talk about the concept of a
Jewish state or Zionism in the abstract
that's a perfectly fine sentiment to say
especially obviously we know the context
after World War II to say that you want
the Jewish State there's no opposition
to that in principle the problem comes
when you decide you want the Jewish
State at the expense of another people
that already exists on a land and to
make displacing them and taking over
that Land part of that project then you
have a problem and so from Israel's
creation it was at the expense of
literally hundreds of Palestinian towns
and Villages that were just completely
obliterated and destroyed
and hundreds of thousands of
Palestinians who were driven out of
their lands and then you had a state of
Israel and then later on there was
additional Regional tension Israel
expands itself to the occupied
Palestinian territories the West Bank
Gaza and East Jerusalem takes over those
areas by force as well but something
different happens here in that the
International Community says wait a
second this takeover of those areas
that's not legitimate you can't just
Annex those areas and claim that those
are part of Israel th that's occup
territory that Israel is obligated to
withdraw from and that pushed us to the
possibility of a peace process at some
point in the late 80s and early 90s in
which Palestinians came to understand
that they are the weaker party and that
they're forced to come to some sort of
compromise and they engaged in the
so-called two-state solution
negotiations with the idea that Israel
would remain as it was established in
1948 on nearly 80% of the land and
Palestinians would only get a state in
the West Bank Gaza and East Jerusalem
and Israel did the exact opposite of
what it was supposed to it said that it
was committed to a two-state solution
but it was obviously insincere because
on the ground all Israel did is expand
more and more illegal settlements on top
of Palestinians and in the process
Palestinians who lived there lived under
Israeli military dictatorship they had
no rights so you look at the West Bank
today where there are illegal Israeli
settlements directly right next to
Palestinian Villages the Israeli
settlers live under Israeli law they
live in democracy they have full voting
rights they have full mobility and the
Palestinians who live directly next to
them they have no rights they don't have
enough water for their towns and
Villages they don't get to vote for the
government that controls their lives
they are effectively subjects and when
you look at the kind of violence and
abuses that they endure as a matter of
status quo I'm not even talking about
moments in which violence escalates and
we've got an outbreak of a war or
anything like that but just the daily
existence of Palestinians under
occupation is just unspeakable brutality
Palestinian children are systematically
processed through the Israeli military
system and thrown in detention where
they are routinely tortured beaten up
that's daily life for Palestinians and
that's a situation of Injustice that is
Rip for conflict because people talk
about no justice no peace sometimes as
if it's just a slogan you know at a
protest when to me it's a much more
fundamental description of human nature
that in any situation in which you don't
have Justice in which somebody is being
treated badly and people don't have
their basic rights you are setting up
the situation um in order for there not
to be peace in order for conflict to
ensue and that's exactly been the path
that we're on and we've ensured and when
I say we I'm talking about the United
States government with American money
ensured lack of accountability for
Israel throughout that entire thing so
we were speaking out of both sides of
our mouths we were saying we support a
two-state solution we support ending the
occupation we support a life of dignity
for Palestinians but the policy is
Israel is denying all these things to
Palestinians and our policy is to Shield
Israel from accountability at the United
Nations and to give Israel more and more
weapons to continue behaving however
it's behaving and that is why we're in
the situation that we're in today and
that's why you start seeing these parts
of the region that are bubbling up
looking for a means of resistance to an
existing status quo that is just utterly
unacceptable and set up for conflict so
back to your original question which is
then why is Israel finds itself now on
potentially the path of Confrontation
it's because we've nurtured an unhealthy
lack of account ility in Israel that the
thought that somebody else might push
back on them and that they might be
forced to behave in the region as an
equal rather than a dominant force that
can do whatever it wants and takes
whatever it wants is out of their normal
frame of reference and I'm concerned
that when you look at Israeli attitudes
among military experts there is a
concern of we should not expand this war
we should be careful uh hasah you know
this would not be a cakewalk we we would
suffer significant damage but the
political atmosphere and the political
culture in Israel is one that is really
pushing towards further confrontation
operating under the false belief that
all Israel has to do is just go in and
be Unleashed and then they'll put
everybody in their place and what I'm
hoping for is that the United States as
a country that has leverage over Israel
can behave you know when we talk friends
don't let friends drive drunk is to
understand that they're on a dangerous
path and for the US to intervene and put
an end to this before we have to find
out through Mass death throughout the
region through a regional War
okay so obviously a lot there um let's
start teasing some of this out so uh you
said that there's a pathology in the I
think you didn't use these words but
this is how I read it in the Israeli
mindset political culture I would say
Okay political culture um that violence
is the only way to get by um and one
question I would ask you is do you think
given the setup of everything that the
Jews have been been through over the
last 2,000 years especially given that
um the founding of Israel comes right
after World War II where for real for
real even America was like nope uh we're
not taking any more in uh they've just
been killed in the millions and now
they're like okay for real we need to go
somewhere we need to have a place we can
defend um do you have so my base
assumption is that history is a long
string of wars that peace is the anomaly
not war so when I see Israel if you are
right and this doesn't seem crazy to me
uh that Israel is saying we have to be
strong we've been weak for too long
we're now going to be strong draw a line
in the sand anybody messes with us and
we're going to push back um yeah like
that makes sense to me in terms of all
of human history yeah okay so do we if
if that really is true peace is the
anomaly while without I certainly don't
expect you to think that what they're
doing is okay or right because you're
coming at it uh where I think wouldn't
we all want peace to be the norm and
violence the anomaly and we have a
chance to do it in this modern era but
given all of that can you understand at
least from their frame of reference why
they would want to project
power I hope this is not reaching too
far out of the frame but let me answer
it this way so many things are part of
human nature uh the propensity for
violence greed we understand that these
things are natural and yet when we Face
the prospect of climate change we say we
have to intervene and put an end to
Greed and selfishness and work together
towards a bigger common good um that we
are somehow working against human nature
in some ways so by the same token I
would say that everything you described
is accurate this is um true that humans
have a propensity for violence and that
war is a constant and the fact that
after the experience of World War II on
the Holocaust that there would be people
who would think self-preservation at
cost no matter who pays the cost and how
the question for me is for us as
Outsiders who are not who we see
unhealthy Dynamics develop what is our
role are we contributing towards
negative pathologies that are leading
towards more death and conflict or
having not been in that position
directly ourselves and not having our
judgment clouded by these kinds of
attitudes that are trauma based what is
our role in this case and so for me I
always come back to the fact that the
United States has an opportunity here
you are the most powerful country in the
world you understand that there are all
kinds of traumas and Dynamics and
pathologies that are at work but we have
the chance to say international law
matters Israel has to behave within the
bounds of international law and that's a
way that you can lead to a better future
not just for Palestinians but for
Israelis too when you look at the
natural outcome of the way Israel has
been conducting itself it has also
resulted in thousands of dead Israelis
along the way so to even operate with
the interest even if you don't care
about Palestinians and you're more
interested in just making sure that
Israelis are safe and have a future it
seems that the road towards deescalation
and a reasonable peace agreement and
human rights being recognized all across
the board is actually good for everyone
so why not take advantage of the fact
that we are not living through that
trauma directly ourselves and we can
have influence policy in a much much
better Direction and the contrast of
that is not also just aspirational for
me it also comes down to moral
responsibility that
there is a responsibility that we should
Americans should spend their tax money
the money that we make in a way that the
population agrees with that we support
from my perspective it should be
primarily focused on helping Americans
in America we have all kinds of problems
here that are not dealt with we
constantly say that we don't have money
for Universal healthare we don't have
enough money for proper education or
free college or School laun Shore you
name it and yet we somehow have money to
send billions of dollars to an apartheid
regime that is imposing an illegal
occupation and at this point in Gaza
arguably in I would I would consider it
to to be reasonable to say engaged in
genocidal violence in Gaza is that the
best use of our money obviously not
that's not what the American people want
and there has to be a change because of
that if you want to reach your full
potential this year you have got to
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impact okay uh when talking about this
it can be almost impossible to not layer
on layer on layer and uh I I certainly
understand the complexities of this
issue I take a slightly different
approach which is there has to be a way
to simplify this to a path forward yeah
so everything we're going to do in our
time together hopefully is leading
towards building up based on what we
know to be true about both sides uh what
we know to be true about the
architecture of the human mind what we
know to be true about uh Power battles
on a global stage all of that that this
theoretical thing that we will talk
about is some point today uh at least
sort of has a chance is worth being
discussed okay so I say all of that
because I am going to try to tease these
issues out one at a time just to again
make sure that I understand the base
assumptions that are driving your
thinking um so what I hear is that
um there is massive precedent for the
for any society to believe that one must
project power because war is a constant
um however there we are living in a
unique moment where especially because
of America's role globally as sort of a
hegemonic power I think we're losing
that a little bit but let's say we're in
the tail end and we could still make use
of it uh that we could speak to what is
morally right and not just this old way
of thinking around power and projecting
power um and so the way that is
with uh what you called a cultural
pathology is acting right now it is this
throwback to a time where only
projecting power matters so they're
clamping down on uh the Palestinians in
the Gaza Strip because of an internal
thing to the architecture of the human
mind as long as they are keeping them
locked down and they don't have freedoms
they are going to fight back and with
that
Injustice peace is fundamentally
impossible to achieve I think that is
correct I would add one thing is that
it's not all based on it's not all
fear-based that we have to project power
because of the potential alternative
there's frankly a significant segment of
Israeli Society uh particularly on the
far right where there is an arrogance of
power it's not fear-based that if we do
this then that might happen it's knowing
that they have the power and capacity to
take over the entire land and they are
proceeding accordingly the expansion of
settlements for example in the West Bank
that's not a security measure putting
Israeli civilians in the middle of
Palestinian population centers that's
not a security measure you are only
doing it because you want to expand your
ter your your territory and in this case
it's the belief that Israel is already
so powerful that there essentially there
are no consequences to to behaving
however they want to and
therefore having a Messianic view that
involves Israel capturing the entire
territory from the river from The River
To The Sea means we can carry on this
Poli polic of expanding more and more
Israeli settlements confining
Palestinians to smaller and smaller
areas and hoping that eventually either
they go away or we don't have to deal
with them anymore so I just yeah I I
don't want to overplay the idea that in
Israeli psychology this is all born out
of a sense of vulnerability because
there is obviously um a part of it in
which you see the endless taunting of
Israeli soldiers you you see it in the
videos that they post of themselves in
Gaza the amount of fun and pleasure they
are taking and the destruction of
Palestinian Society is something that I
think is really really horrific and we
barely get a window of that watching
kind of mainstream coverage of the issue
okay uh so I will certainly agree that
no country's intentions are ever going
to be pure uh when you're in America it
gets pretty easy to see that um yeah
people came here kicked ass and took
over and that that is um ugly and
horrifying and also gave birth to every
everything that I have known and loved
and so it is this incredibly weird yeah
uh can I interject on just this
particular Point you're again your
description is correct right but we we
operate right now under the assumption
that that's just the thing of the past
this is the outcome of it now but if it
were to happen again today surely we
would not do the same thing surely we
recognize that the genocide of Native
Americans was wrong that slavery was
wrong that Jim Crow was wrong we operate
under this idea that we've made cultural
Evolution here and yet we're in a moment
in which we're watching
another country do that and instead of
saying hey this is our moment to rectify
our sins of the past we're saying more
power to you go ahead and do it in the
present not as a historical event that
you can reflect on and say was it for
good or bad but a process that is
currently unfolding where Palestinian
Society is being destroyed before our
eyes and our response to it is not just
to sit on the sidelines but to actually
arm and fund that process okay but that
assumes everybody shares your frame of
reference so your frame of reference is
certainly internally consistent I think
it will be very difficult for me or
anybody else to be like hahaa like
you're contradicting yourself here you
certainly have taken dots you've
connected them in a way that make a lot
of sense I'm able to track it I can
repeat it back to you um so that says
there's a wellth thought out internally
consistent thing now this is where me as
the entrepreneur I just can't help
myself I start going okay but what's our
desired outcome and how are we going to
get there so what we haven't looked at
so I think you've done a very good job
of giving a frame of reference for how
to look at uh the Israelis that is um
replete with all of the grotesque
elements of the human psyche that I do
not think is unique to Israelis I think
Alexander Soulja niten said it best when
he said the line between good and evil
runs through every human heart I think
people have beautiful intent and then 3
seconds later horrific intent and also
which is which will determine who you're
talking to and what frame of reference
they have uh because obviously if you're
um if you're the parent of somebody who
was kidnapped on October 7th like yeah
you're here for some violence you're
here to blow people's heads off a th%
and I think we are hardwired to feel
that way to want to protect our own over
everything else I get it so anyway all
of that is going to matter a lot but now
I think that we have to ask the question
so if the Israeli impulse is not pure so
some of it is like and let's even say
that in the beginning it was mostly like
hey we really need a place to protect
ourselves but then sort of quickly got
weird I'm totally fine with that uh but
do you think there is any weirdness on
the Hamas side does Hamas have pure
intentions or are they equally a mix of
I want to do good but also I'm living in
Qatar I'm a billionaire while a lot of
my people are just in abject poverty
yeah with Hamas in particular um it's
worth asking how they came about and I
think that that can give us a lot of
answers we can kind of like track the
evolution of them they came about as a
result of the occupation Israel took
over the Palestinian territories denied
people rights there and that frustration
naturally builds into militant
resistance now the Hamas particular
flavor flavor happens to be a religious
one it happens to be Islamic resistance
to occupation and this need to Rel a
religiously motivated need to say that
only violence is we liberate ourselves a
lot of rhetoric about what was taken
away from by violence can only be
retrieved by violence and so on and for
me it becomes a question it's not it's
not about whether individual people
within Hamas are are well motivated or
not it's about the fact that why did
this become a draw for people when did
they gain support and to me the relevant
part the the the from a practical
perspective when we're talking about
where we're going moving forward is to
say that when Palestinians believed in
the prospect of a Palestinian state that
is free from Israeli occupation that
Israel was seriously interested in
ending the occupation at the beginning
of the peace process Hamas they had
virtually no support among Palestinians
they were trying to derail the peace
talks by setting off bombs uh you know
carrying out suicide bombings in the in
in the 90s and so on and there was
Palestinian opposition to them it is
only when it became absolutely clear
that Israel is not actually genuinely
interested in ending the occupation and
that what they were doing is playing
this game that the entire so-called
peace process was a sham and Israel kept
expanding more and more settlements and
entrenching the occupation and making
clear that there is no future in which
Palestinians are free in their land is
when Hamas their popularity grew
significantly and so looking at Hamas
Fighters now in Gaza I'm sure it ranges
from people who are genuinely interested
in fighting as a means of resistance
because they want to be free and maybe
people whose motivations are even far
beyond that maybe individuals who you
know like whatever they're might be
motivated by whatever religious ideas
that they have on top of that and are
capable of carrying out far worse
atrocities and there's no question that
Hamas has engaged in many many
atrocities as well any attack on
civilians is by definition a war crime
and Hamas has engaged in attacks on
civilians which you know just completely
indefensible so to me there's no
contradiction there we're looking at
pathologies once again playing out and
understanding that the reason why people
who pursue violence in Palestinian
Society have all the support is because
with us Unity we've made sure that
Israel has blocked every path for
peaceful resistance and that's what
drove them into that corner rather than
trying to analyze the individual
psychology of any particular member in
Hamas or the leadership or whatever um
it's the fact that Palestinians have
done negotiations that have fallen apart
they've done economic boycotts the US
has put enormous pressure to cut off the
boycotts they've gone to the UN the US
intervenes and make sure resolutions
don't pass and Palestinians in Gaza did
the uh March for return back in 2018 in
which they marched unarmed to the fence
separating Israel from Gaza saying we
don't want to be locked in this cage and
by the way that I think is a really
really important piece of context is
that before October 7th Gaza has been an
open air prison it's been a it's been a
cage for Palestinians they have no
airport they have no sea port
Palestinians can't go in and out they
can't trade with the outside world their
economy is in
shambles unemployment is at 50% they
were not living like human beings there
was no Prospect for a Palestinian parent
in Gaza to think I want a better future
for my child and to work towards a
better future for their child because
they were prisoners in this cage that
Israel imposed on them that the entire
world agreed was unlawful the UN every
major human rights organization said
this Siege is unlawful and Israel would
periodically carry out bombings in Gaza
that have killed again before October
7th hundreds of Palestinian children
throughout these bombings and so that's
the condition in which Palestinians
existed in they decided that unarmed
resistance is something that's worth
giving worth giving a shot to and so
they marched to the fence separating
Israel from Gaza and Israeli snipers
open fire into the crowd and if you read
human rights organizations's reports on
it it's talks about targeting of
children of journalists of Medics it's
just again a sense of complete and total
impunity that these soldiers can
effectively have fun with this horde
that is working towards them opening
fire completely dehumanizing them and
when you think of that being the last
last straw of every means of resistance
Palestinians tried there is absolutely
no surprise at the fact that Hamas is
able to recruit tens of thousands of
fighters in Gaza that is the natural
outcome of a situation that is
fundamentally unjust and drives people
to extreme Behavior okay this will be a
good point for me to plant a flag that
says I am aware of the counterarguments
on the other side I am uh given that I
am actually trying to make sense of what
I think is a useful path forward a I
have no desire to be in a debate B I'm
not a good debater so let's start with
that uh and then C what I'm trying to do
right now is really map out the base
assumptions that you have but I don't
want people to think because the
comments are going to be a light with no
no no they were sending over incendiary
balloons and all that and Tom he
doesn't know uh so I I am aware of those
things um but I think it's very useful
to understand your frame of reference
that um you see those as a last ditch
effort to test a peaceful uh approach to
this because one of the big things that
I wrote down even before we met that I
see as your base assumption is that uh
if you communicate to a people that they
will never be free they are going to
mount an armed resistance because they
have nothing left to lose um and so
again not trying to judge that just
trying to say okay cool I get where
you're coming from I I understand where
you're coming from I am able to piece
together your internal world View and
again say it back to you okay so uh dear
commenters if you've made it this far uh
that's not the place to put the pressure
so what we want to do I think uh for us
to have a path forward we must
understand the rough frames of reference
on each side understand why they are
colliding and in that reality knowing
what's actually happening yeah how do we
carve a path forward okay so uh Israel
has no right to put up a blockade I'm
I'm reiterating what I've heard you say
uh Israel has no right to put up a
blockade every peaceful thing that the
Palestinians have attempted has been met
with violence or just apathy so they
realize that's not going to work uh the
Israel uh the Israelis have a mixed bag
of motivations some fear and some just
arrogance of power uh and when you put
the Palestinian people in a situation
where they can't make life better for
themselves suddenly the only way to look
at your life is I'm in an open air
prison and so sure it's better than
being in a closed air prison but this is
still a dead end and I no longer have
hope for my children okay uh that
touches on one of my base assumptions
which is for things for Any Nation
literally Any Nation to move forward in
what I would consider a positive way
which I won't waste time defining that
right now but for Any Nation to move
forward in a positive way they need a uh
optimistic view of both the present and
the future they need a Vision an
honorable Vision again I have a
definition for that but I won't drag us
down in that right now but they need an
honor honorable vision for how to spend
their lives and how to make sure that
their children's lives are better and so
this is an area where if your frame of
reference is the right frame of
reference from which to look at this or
even if I just adopt it right or wrong
I'm like yeah I get it I get why if you
really believe you're the Palestinian on
the ground you did the March you were
super peaceful and you watched your
sister get her face blown off it's like
all of the sudden you're like okay well
I don't have any options left now again
I'm not saying that that frame of
reference is right I'm just saying if
you have that frame of reference then
suddenly You can predict the outcomes
that we're seeing now so again internal
consistency uh now I want to start
figuring out though what are the
motivations of Hamas like
what
pointedly would Hamas Moss be cool would
they agree to any um go forward status
that involved Israel as is today I think
that um Hamas sort of their strategy has
not been completely consistent and
coherent there are different times in
which they've suggested different things
and I think that part of it the
International Community could have
helped shape the direction in which
Hamas was going to move in so when they
started out they were completely
rejectionist they should not be in
Israel and armed resistance all the way
and it's kind of like very theologically
driven you know Messianic idea of of how
you achieve Liberation and over time
that actually has shifted and when they
won elections uh back in
2005 they or what 2006 after Israel
withdrew from Gaza they put out very
clear suggestions that they're willing
to moderate their leader khed mishal
published the piece in the Washington
Post talking about how
even though we don't like a two-state
solution if we put it to a referendum
and Palestinians accept it we're not
going to be the ones to obstruct it they
showed signs of moderation and
flexibility and in the face of that I
think if there was encouragement of that
um you could have had you could have
moved Hamas in a more pragmatic
Direction and why wasn't there
encouragement Israel responded
immediately by putting all of Gaza under
a tighter lockdown and said that Hamas
has three things they have to do if they
want to have to to change the status quo
they have to recognize Israel they have
to renounce violence and they have to
accept all previous agreements that the
Palestinian Authority had signed with
Israel now what's interesting about that
is that Israel does not recognize
Palestine so Israel was making a demand
of Hamas that Israel itself did not
reciprocate they had they reciprocated
would this have gone through I mean
that's really the the entire problem
with the with the two-state solution and
peace process is that everything was
given from one side and the other side
responded by just rejecting everything
by saying let's talk that was was the
game that that was played is hey let's
talk we're still negotiating let's
figure out the details so you think
Israel was being insincere completely
insincere just trying to keep the talks
going for absolutely they used that as
cover and that became much clearer later
on now is this because so I'm
formulating a again I said this off
camera so I'll say it on camera whenever
I'm talking to somebody I ask myself if
I were writing this person as a
character what would they need to
believe for them to say this or act in
this way uh it would make immediate
sense to me if you believe boys and
girls all Israel wants I don't care what
they say what they want is to ethnically
cleanse which is a fancy way of saying
they want to make all the Palestinians
leave and they want the whole area for
themselves they want East Jerusalem they
want uh the whole Gaza Strip like they
they just want it all uh and so no
matter what they do say whatever it is
all a um it's a smoke screen for what
they're really doing which is uh provoke
provoke provoke to get you to a attack
and then they have justification to
literally just level Gaza so that you
leave because you have no reason to be
there anymore because there's nothing
left uh and then they're going to take
it over and that's been the real desire
for God knows how long and the status
quo when these large violent outs spur
don't happen is not just you know the
the the provocation is that exact same
process just in slow motion what changes
is the scale and speed of it throughout
the so-called peace process again times
that are peaceful in which there isn't
an outbreak of Palestinian violence the
part where is Israel is pushing
Palestinians out of their homes in the
occupied territories and building
settlements and replacing one population
with another that's an ongoing process
that's the status quo and you know you
you mentioned a second ago when we were
talking about sort of anticipating what
the counterarguments are for how
peaceful Palestinians are I think people
can easily posit a counterargument that
is basically a smattering of acts of
violence by Palestinians well there was
this suicide bombing and there was this
rocket attack and there was this
incendiary balloon the point for me is
that what is the status quo when those
things are not happening it's not we're
not operating under two equal sides that
are both free that are they have a
border separating them and then one side
once you know launches a rocket or an
incendiary balloon the status quo is one
in which one population rules another in
which you have an occupier and an
occupied one people that is in charge of
everything and all the borders and all
the water and all the land and another
people who have to endure whatever is
imposed on them so even though you can
count you know you can point to random
instances of Palestinian violence and
they're certainly real and they're
obviously not all Justified because of
that distinction between civilian
targets and Military targets that
doesn't change the fact that the
fundamental reality the status quo is
one itself of Injustice so we play this
game of what came first and every time
you get into an argument about what
happened well they did this because of
that well they did this because of that
and you can have that timeline go back
forever and I'm not interested in
tracing that back that timeline back
forever if you want to trace it back
back forever it still starts with the
fact that Israel displaced Palestinians
to create Israel that to me is the
starting point but I don't think we have
to play that game of tracing it all the
way back we have a status quo and an
existing reality in which one people is
free and another people is not and so
whenever people talk about what's the
cause of violence obviously the cause
the starting point when we talk about
who started it the people who's denying
freedom to another people is by
definition the aggressor because that's
the dynamic between them okay so uh
could you ever see a world where
Palestinians would come to the table and
say um we think you're lying we think
you just want to take over everything
but here in front of the global
Community we would like to say uh we
renounce violence for the next 10 years
and at the end of that 10 years assuming
that there are no meaningful attacks
because we can't there's always going to
be some that does something
stupid but that there are no meaningful
attacks that uh all blockades are lifted
two State solution immediately let's go
let's go
um do you would that feel good would you
be like oh my God this is amazing this
is a step in the right direction yeah
that you're you're not describing a
fictional period you're describing a
real one which is the peace process that
is what the 199 was so I'm aware of that
was one of the things where they said
you have to um do that for 10 years but
what I'm trying to figure out is if your
response to that is are you out of your
mind you're you have no right to lock
these people up not not for 10 days not
for 10 years that's absurd or if you're
going to be like oh my God I would love
that so much that would be incredible
we've suffered for so long 10 years we
can get by like this would be yeah and
it's beyond what I feel right like for
me at the end of the day I'm not the one
suffering the consequences for it like
directly it's the people on the ground
and they accepted that framework they
said the occupation is going to
gradually end in the peace process that
Israel is going to be gradually pulling
back and Palestinians you have to just
show good faith you recognized Israel
now you have to build your institutions
and cracked down on violence and the
Palestinian Authority largely did what
Israel wanted of them there was as you
mentioned some on occasion who
would set off a bomb here or do an
attack there but by and large the
Palestinian Authority was praised by
Israeli leaders at the time for cracking
down on violence and for kind of like
going after and that was extremely
unpopular by the way with with a lot of
Palestinians too who felt how dare you
go after the people resisting occupation
and from the Palestinian authorities
perspective is listen this is the price
we have to pay in the meantime in order
to demonstrate that we are ready to have
a state and then maybe we can convince
Israel to allow us to have a state that
was the framework and it failed because
Israel was not genuinely interested in
it so get specific when did it fail what
happened in 1993 was the launch in 1988
Palestinians recognized Israel and then
there was the talks leading up to the
official peace process 1993 the Oslo
Peace process began that was based on
the idea that Israel was going to end
the occupation and Palestinians get to
have a state but within that there were
some details that Palestinians just
assumed good faith on the part of Israel
they said we're not going to like you
know take over all the West Bank but
there's going to be some natural growth
of settlements and the Palestinians said
yeah that's fine like if some settlement
expands a little bit here or there but
then what happened in the subsequent
seven years is the number of settlers
doubled like the the expansion of those
settlements it was not natural by any
stretch of the imagination it was Israel
transferring its population into the
occupied territories in violation of
international law and making clear that
there no Palestinian State that's going
to that that's going to be allowed to
exist viably at the end of that the
Israeli argument is no no we said fine
we're going to give you a Palestinian
state but when you look at the maps of
what was offered it's basically swiss
cheese it's it's areas Band Stand like
what you know what was basically what
black self-rule was in apartheid South
Africa it's these tiny isolated areas
and Israel's like you can call that a
state here you have a state but
obviously it was not viable had no
control of its borders Israel controlled
everything including cluding the water
resources and so on it just simply was
not viable to the point that Israel's
foreign minister at the time when the
things fell apart in in the year 2000
and you've had a Palestinian Uprising
the trigger of that Palestinian Uprising
was Ariel Chiron a war criminal by any
definition uh he was the Israel's
defense minister at the time walking
over into the Muslim part of Temple
Mount What's called the noble Sanctuary
where the Alam mosque and everything
surrounded by a thousand soldiers as a
show of saying we're never going to
relinquish Israeli control of of this
area and that triggered Palestinians to
throw rocks and shoes at them Israeli
soldiers opened fire killed seven
unarmed people and that just basically
sparked the Palestinian Uprising the
second andalo it's not the incident the
incident is just the straw that broke
the camels back the buildup of that was
seven years in which Palestinians kept
being told Independence is coming your
state is coming your freedom is coming
and it simply never came and that led to
that explosion okay do you think that
the average
Israeli has this what I'll call cynical
view that you're saying that Israel the
country the government puts forward
which is we're going to get it all no
matter what uh and everything else is a
sham do you think the average Israeli
also believes that so it's interesting
with Israeli public opinion is that at
the time when this was happening there
was a significant peace camp in Israel
that was genuinely interested in
reconciliation and and figuring things
out where you know leaning towards the
the prospect of a two state with
Palestinians what I think Israel
effectively did is lay the blame on
Palestinians for the failure of those
talks so I don't think that the
discourse that was intended primarily I
think for an external audience to as a
way to relieve Israel from pressure
played well it was basically propaganda
that worked effectively within the
Israeli population as well which is the
idea that we offered Palestinians a
state and they said no clearly they just
want to destroy us that's why there is
no peace I think that narrative took
hold within a good portion of Israeli
society and that contributed to the
belief that just peace with these people
is not possible oppress them or push
them out or whatever it doesn't really
matter that kind of became the dominant
attitude um and unlike the US where
younger Americans are far more
Progressive and diverse and tolerant and
interested in you know the well-being of
other people and so on the trend in
Israel is the opposite that younger
people are far more anti- Palestinian
than the older generation and so things
are trending in a very very dark
Direction you can watch endless footage
of Israeli youth marching by the
hundreds chanting death to the Arabs not
just one or two isolated instances but
it's the norm there's something called
Jerusalem day in which Israelis
celebrate their capture of East
Jerusalem again illegal under
international law but every Jerusalem
day hundreds of Israelis if not
thousands March through the Palestinian
part of Jerusalem just wreaking havoc
beating up random Palestinians
destroying shops is just what happens
year after year to chance of death to
the Arabs and that is just so normalized
within Israeli Society at this point and
again it's just frustrating that you
don't see a glimpse of that looking at
this as an American spectator is that
hamas's extremism is visible to everyone
you don't have you know every lay
American has a pretty good idea when you
ask them do you have a positive or A
negative impression of you know October
7th or whatever obviously everybody
knows that was a terrible attack because
it included a significant portion of
that is an attack on civilians and that
Hamas is comfortable with attacks on
civilians and that should be
disqualifying morally but they don't
know the same either about the level of
anti-palestinian racism that permeates
Israeli Society or the scale of
deliberate atrocities that the Israeli
military targets Palestinian civilians
with that you've had people on the show
before who kind of like draw that
contrast of sure Israel is killing more
civilians but there's a moral difference
because it's by accident when Hamas
kills them it's on purpose but when
Israel kill them it's by accident but
that's just simply not true when you
look at the reports of Human Rights
organizations they all say that there is
mass indiscriminate bombing of Civilian
areas they don't talk about Israel
trying to pinpoint the terrorists and
missing when you talk about human
Shields I bet you you if if I simply say
who uses human shields in Palestine and
Israel almost 10 out of 10 are going to
say Hamas uses human Shields not a
single person is going to say the isra
military does the reality is the
opposite and it's mindboggling and
deeply frustrating that nobody knows
that basic fact which is that it is
official Israeli military policy to use
Palestinian civilians as human Shields
it was at the beginning of the second
inala for many years hundreds of cases
of that happening one case in which
somebody was killed and then in 2005 the
Israeli Supreme Court steps in and says
okay we've gone too far we need to put
an end to this practice from now on
human Shields you can't use Palestinian
civilians as human Shields and the
Israeli military objects the Israeli
defense minister at the time goes to
court to argue the opposite case saying
using Palestinian civilians as human
Shields saves the lives of our soldiers
and it should be allowed the Israeli
Supreme Court holds its ground and
insists that that cannot continue and
yet in practice even though it has
become illegal to use Palestinian
civilians as human shields in the
Israeli military the practice is dime a
dozen there is not a single instance of
conflict between Palestinians and
Israelis in which there aren't
documented cases of that happening back
in 2008 2009 in in Gaza a 10-year-old
Palestinian boy was caught being used as
a human shield Human Rights Watch
described the punishment that the
soldiers got as quote a slap on the
wrist they got demoted for being caught
using Palestinian a young Palestinian
boy as a human shield and when you look
at what Hamas practices just as a matter
of technicality I'm not denying that
they hide among civilians that's
effectively what they do there is an
imbalance of power here in which you
don't have aircrafts and tanks and
bombers and and all the advanced
technology that Israel has so Hamas
cannot go and front the Israeli military
on a battlefield like any gorilla group
what they do is hide in the case of
Hezbollah and Lebanon they hide in
massive fields and banana trees in the
case of Gaza there is nowhere else to
hide except the civilian in
infrastructure because it's 2 million
people crammed into a very tiny and very
urban place and so where Hamas hides is
in civilian areas so even though there's
some legitimacy to the idea that it's
you have to fight in urban areas if
you're going after Hamas the practice is
not the literal use of human Shields the
way it is the literal use of human
Shields shields in the case of the
Israeli military and these are the kinds
of facts that I think most Americans
simply don't know okay uh so now you're
on to the really contentious one here uh
we haven't talked about genocide yet
which I that's probably good um human
shield
so let me ask do you think that Hamas
wants to maximize the loss of civilian
life as a way to gain um public opinion
in the West to put pressure on the US to
put pressure on other governments to
pressure Israelis let me answer this
question and again my answer may seem
naive at first but let me explain I
don't think that's true I think Hamas
did what they did on October 7th knowing
full well that Israel is going to go
berserk in in in Gaza they knew that
there was going to be a very significant
civilian death toll as a result of
Israel's because that's the only way
Israel behaves is that after every
provoc or whatever they feel they have
to respond with overwhelming Force
that's their military Doctrine
explicitly the Israeli military Doctrine
is to induce Mass suffering among
civilians as a means of putting pressure
on the political leadership and make
them less um daring to commit these
kinds of Acts in the future that is the
doctrine but I don't think that they
literally want Palestinian civilians to
die that's a little bit different and
for me the piece of evidence that's
that's obvious is in the fact that
Israel uses Palestinian civilians as
human Shields and just think of the
logical outcome of that
if the Israeli military operating in the
West Bank when there were still Hamas
militants and many other Palestinian
militants used to think that it saves
the lives of their soldiers to put a
Palestinian in front of them it must be
because they know that the other side is
going to be reluctant to shoot at them
because there're are Palestinian
civilians present and The Logical
conclusion of that is that they don't
believe that Palestinian militants want
to kill their own people because if they
did there would simply not be any use
for that practice and I think it's
similar to what is unfolding in Gaza
right now when you look at
the scale of the destruction nobody can
credibly say that they're making a
pinpointed effort to go after specific
terrorists when you look at the
statements of Israeli leaders leading up
to this Netanyahu you know there's the
famous genocidal quotes about you know
invoking the Amal from the Bible which
is a Biblical reference to killing every
last man woman and child of of of the
amalik and they talked about treating
Palestinians like human animals about no
water no fuel in Gaza no food coming in
and out that kind of rhetoric and then
you have the more specific policy that
is tied to it which is Netanyahu talking
with Ron durmer um another Israeli
official who was the Ambassador at some
point um talking about that the strategy
is to thin the population in Gaza down
to a minimum that was reported in the
Israeli press and then you look at
there's an Israeli publication called
972 magazine they've done interviews
with ranking intelligence officials and
military officials in Israel and the
stuff that emerged is just absolutely
shocking about the fact that Israel had
a deliberate strategy of bombing quote
unquote power targets and those are
things that are similar to the shock and
awe campaign that we've had in Iraq and
they report specifically on instances in
which Israel toppled highrises in Gaza
civilian highrises residential buildings
without any prior warning that's not the
behavior of somebody who's really
interested in distinguishing between
military and and civilian targets and
and when you look at the testimonies of
soldiers when you look at the videos
that have emerged of what soldiers are
doing none of them are held accountable
you have repeatedly footage of Israeli
snipers opening fire into Palestinian
civilians and children you've had
American doctors this was feature by the
way on CBS one of every every few weeks
there is one individual report in
American Media that just feels like a
breath of fresh air reporting on
terrible stuff but the fact that at
least people get to see it CBS did an
interview with an American Jewish Doctor
Who went went to visit Gaza and what the
doctor described is the fact that there
was a systematic targeting of
Palestinian children with sniper bullets
and that has been repeated by many other
testimonies of international doctors who
have been that they see an just an
unbelievable number of Palestinian
children who arrive with a single sniper
bullet lodged in their brain and they've
concluded that this is there is
obviously a targeting of Palestinian
children and you see it sometimes caught
on tape there was a young Palestinian
child holding the hand of his mother and
of his grandmother and the grandmother
is waving a white flag and they're
walking perfectly obviously not posing
any threat an Israeli sniper takes out
the grandmother the child goes running
off no accountability for that kind of
instance and it's not only happening in
Gaza even in the West Bank at the
beginning of this mess I think he's back
in either October or November there was
two separate instances of Israeli
soldiers opening fire that were caught
on tape killing young pal children who
are clearly posing absolutely no threat
to anyone just the street this part of
your argument I already understand so
just to recap so you know that I
understand uh Israel has cultural
pathology no matter what they're saying
publicly the reality is that they are
going to get the whole of that land for
themselves they are perfectly happy to
ethnically cleanse and Destroy um
Palestine literally raise it to the
ground so that they can take it over and
build it back and have for themselves um
the line through good and evil certainly
runs through their heart so they're
perfectly happy to take people out U
just because they don't like
Palestinians and they want them gone so
the individual instances that's where I
find people really get bogged down I
just want to understand the world view
um so that we can then say okay let's
take this worldview as fact for the sake
of argument what would a path be forward
if your worldview is fact uh
so I hopefully you feel her heard and
understood I do and I I sometimes I
indulge with detail just because I think
to paint a picture because there's
always a lot of people who will say well
it seems implausible that nobody does
this like it can't be driv crazy about
that strategy so when you and Destiny
debated for instance there's Tiff forat
like there there is a read of each
situation that when you read the human
shield thing you make Israeli sound
terrible and when he reads the human
shield thing he makes Hamas sound
terrible so there's no question like
there are very cogent internally
consistent arguments to be made from
each side that you can step inside of
each frame of reference and and look at
the behavior and go yeah with that frame
of reference this Behavior has internal
consist here's my push back though is
that yes many people can have individual
opinions on it but mine are consistent
with what major human rights
organizations have to say including
Israeli human rights organizations and I
think that that ought to add credibility
to something yeah I think it's very
important for people to understand about
the way that you approach this is very
much from a moral place in fact one of
my questions which I'll I'll just ask
now um is this a land dispute or is this
a moral
question I don't think that those are
mutually exclusive in this case it is
obviously the core of the problem is
that one people is being pushed off of
their land and being taken over by
another and I think that that has
significant moral implications um about
what is the correct way to resolve the
situation and you have right because we
talk about this sometimes in two parts
there's there's the argument people
sometimes split it up the starting point
for a lot of people
is Israel is Justified in launching this
war on Gaza given what happened on
October 7th and then the debate is
exclusively within the confines of are
they overdoing it have they gone too far
should they pull back are they doing it
right and from my perspective even if
you were to accept that premise the
answer is still no even if you're
genuinely what you're doing is trying to
defend yourself the idea that you can
Slaughter tens of thousands of children
from another people in order to for you
to live in a little bit more security is
a morally obviously morally broken way
to look at the world that the lives of
other children ought to matter the same
as anybody else's but my problem with
that the bigger problem is that the
starting point is false Israel is not
defending itself in Gaza Israel is
defending its occupation its system of
apartheid and dominance over
Palestinians because you can resolve
this entire conflict and end the
security threat that Israel Feels by
resolving this conflict you know Israel
settled with Egypt they fully withdraw
from Egyptian territories and left the
Sinai and as a result eventually had a
peace agreement in which right now there
is no risk of violence between Egyptians
and Israelis at least certainly not over
anything that Beyond how Palestinians
are being treated and to me the the
solution here is very very simple if
you're interested in in Security in
Israeli security you can't do it at the
expense of Palestinians because that's
going to endlessly be a source of
insecurity for Israel you do it by
recognizing Palestinian rights and
Israel having ruled out the idea that we
can have Palestinians stay here and live
here with full rights full human beings
with the same dignity and freedom that
Israelis enjoy if you rule that out only
then can Israel pretend that what
they're doing right now is defensive but
what they're really defending is a
system in which they dominate
Palestinians and Palestinians have no
Freedom that is what we're witnessing so
it's wrong in principle and also wrong
in its conduct Palestinians deserve to
live in Palestine they deserve to have
full rights there the same way Israelis
enjoy them and you can either do it
through one state and we're all familiar
with that you can think of in the United
States what preim Crow life was like
versus post we just have equality for
everyone or and the same thing with
South Africa sort of ending aart and
everybody gets equal rights or if you
want to indulge the Israeli fear of the
prospect of one state and what it means
for Jews to potentially be a minority in
the land and all that stuff the
alternative is two states which
Palestinians have already bent over
backwards to accommodate as a compromise
in which they only get a fraction of the
land back 22% and if it's you don't get
to have a tiny State and you don't get
to have equality and what you're
proposing is permanent apartheid in that
land that is morally indefensible and
requires an
intervention okay so uh the thing that I
bump against in your worldview view is
if you believe that Israel is lying
immoral and they're just going to do
what they want to do unless they are
forced by a greater power in this case
America to and I think your pitch would
be to withdraw funds so just let them
sort of Wither on the vine um that your
perspective um does not allow for an
Israel that can be reasoned with and so
when I step inside of your frame of
reference the only option is military
because well diplomacy first to weaken
their relationship with the us but then
military because they they are
pathological culturally that is a quote
so now it's like okay well whatever is
true is true and so if that is true then
okay then that's where we're at now the
naive optimistic person in me does not
want to believe that that is true I
don't have a frame of reference my like
my own frame of reference which
admittedly is is far less informed than
yours and so I take my own with a
gigantic grain of salt um but when I
look at it I think woo I really hope
that isn't true because if it isn't true
then we only have the escalation of
violence remaining to us so I disagree
with that I think the South Africa model
on apartheid there is the obvious one
there is nothing fundamentally
inherently wrong with white people in
South Africa that Mak makes them
terrible and irredeemable they're just
human and it's a power dynamic in which
they had immense privilege at the
expense of another people and they were
happy to indulge it as long as they
could and it took enormous International
pressure primarily economic pressure and
Global isolation for them to feel like
okay we need to move things in a better
Direction so we did not need to invade
South Africa in order to undo the
apartheid system it is applying
political and economic pressure on a
system in order to make sure that it
accommodates for the rights of other
people and I think very similarly about
Israel I don't think that the only path
forward is escalation and violence I
think there's a word a world in which we
apply enough economic and political
pressure on Israel to get them to behave
in a in a more moral direction to me
what's making the violence part
inevitable is our unwillingness to do
that our unwillingness to hold Israel
accountable meaningfully and to apply
the Lev the the levers of pressure that
we do have is what's pushing us in a
direction in which violence is going to
be the ultimate outcome of all this and
a far bigger and more explosive way and
what I'm hoping for is an intervention
that doesn't get us there to understand
that obviously there isn't anything
inherently wrong about Israelis as human
beings but they are stuck right now in a
political dynamic in which they have
immense privilege at the expense of
another people there is no cost for it
and we don't have the luxury to just
wait and say in a few hundred years like
the Americans we we've thought when we
look back we go oh yeah that was
terrible we shouldn't have done that and
then we have some Museum and
commemoration for people that we've
oppressed and wiped off the face of the
Earth in the past we don't have to wait
that long we can apply the levers of
pressure that we currently have in order
to make sure that we don't have to enter
that and in that way either I've
misunderstood something that you said
earlier and you didn't correct me when I
reiterated it or this is the first
internal inconsistency in your argument
so uh the problem with that assessment
is that right now inside of Israel
there's whatever 20% 30% uh Arabs that
live in Israel have full citizenship
full rights there's no apar I wouldn't
say full but yeah it's um they can
participate in elections they can serve
in Parliament they can serve as judges
like they're definitely immensely better
off than Palestinians in the occupied
territories but not quite fully equal um
there is less funding for their schools
there is all kinds of housing
discrimination you say apartheid is that
the part you're talking about or are you
talking about Gaza I always thought you
meant Gaza the West Bank and Gaza are
probably the most extreme version of it
where there's complete denial of the
rights of Palestinians really if you
want to put it it's like there's Israeli
Jews are the ones who have full
privileges full rights one step down is
Palestinian citizens of Israel so those
are citizens of Israel another step down
is Palestinians in East Jerusalem
another step down is the remaining
Palestinians in the west bank and then
the people who have it the worst are in
Gaza so it's not it's it's a it's a
complex system of several levels of of
rights that people have but
fundamentally what it is at its core
it's that Israeli Jews have full rights
and Palestinian
of different categories have minus
different categories within that so for
Palestinian citizens of Israel just as a
random example they there's in America
when you go to buy a home if people say
sorry we don't think you're the right
fit for this neighborhood because you're
culturally not just quite right and you
say that to a black family in a white
neighborhood that's instantly a lawsuit
in Israel there's things called uh
housing uh admittance committees or
something like that I don't remember
what what the official name of them um
is um and those say that you have to be
culturally suitable to live in a
particular town and it's very thinly
coded language about Palestinian
citizens of Israel not living in the
same neighborhoods that Jews want
exclusively for themselves and the
Israeli Supreme Court defended that
practice and you have just if you're a
Palestinian citizen of Israel you can't
marry whoever you want and then have
them move to Israel and become a citizen
in a way that if you're a Jewish citizen
of Israel anybody who's Jewish anywhere
in the world can become a citizen and
you can marry anyone and bring them to
to Israel to live with you so there's
discrimination within that that is still
foundationally about maintaining
demographic um privilege and making sure
that the demography is not messed with
within Israel that they want to maintain
a overwhelming Jewish majority and
through that overwhelming Jewish rights
at the expense of Palestinians but
certainly when you talk to Palestinian
citizens of Israel their lives are
substantially better reasonably close to
normal compared to what Palestinians in
the West Bank have to endure which is
military dictatorship and worse yet the
people in Gaza who are effectively
living in a cage and can't go in and out
and have no Freedom at all okay uh this
may be a complicated uh side mission
here
um what would you do if you stepped
inside the Israeli frame of reference
meaning their frame of reference at as
reported uh not the frame of reference
you have of them and step inside of that
but the frame of reference as they
reported themselves um how would you
negotiate maintaining a Jewish
state if so I'm arguing on behalf of a
Jewish State and and yeah I want so for
me this is where we start getting into
the the real meat and potatoes of why we
are stuck here so in fact let me draw a
parallel real fast so my wife's family
got caught up in the invasion of Cyprus
by the Turks and her stepmom was one of
the people that was forcibly evicted
from her home she thought she was going
to be gone for a weekend and she ended
up being gone for whatever 40 years yeah
and surprise you've now been evicted uh
and they drew a line on the island and
everybody's gotten along with their
business now of course Greece will
occasionally ask like hey we want some
help we want to resolve this but the
reason that's not going to go anywhere
is you you've now had 40ish years I
don't remember the exact number uh of
people living there in those homes and
so while it is absolutely gut-wrenching
that my stepmother-in-law and you can
make her cry just by bringing it up I
mean for her it's still very fresh but
she's never going back like that now
you're just going to revisit that trauma
on Whoever has grown up there and raised
their kids and you know 40 years is a
long ass time Y and for whatever
reason for the most part Cy just got on
with life it was like yep we just lost
half of our Island and that really
sucked and if they had the military
power I'm sure they would have fought
back right then and there but they
didn't and so they said cool we don't
want an eternity of Bloodshed and they
just rolled with it yeah
so when I look at this conflict like
there is some sticking point that isn't
about Injustice from where I'm sitting
this is about something else that I
don't know that we've gotten to yet I
don't even know that I understand yet uh
but when I step inside the Israeli frame
of reference as reported and I don't
just assume that secretly they want to
take everything I go I have a tiger by
the tail and some part of me knows I
can't hold on to this tiger forever it's
no way for me to live yeah it's no way
for the tiger to live but I've grabbed a
tiger by the tail and even if you just
start the story with me grabbing the
tiger they're pissed off now because
I've grabbed their tail and they're not
going to be good with that but if I let
go I get bitten and so I'm now in a
quandry how do I let go of the tail in a
way that is responsible yeah now we live
in a fantasy land here where hey we're
all human so we can just say I would
like to let go but please don't bite me
yeah uh largely because they there's a
thousand people here with guns and if
you bite me they're all going to shoot
you and in that there's some sticking
point that still makes it impossible for
both sides to be like yeah cool like let
go here are the things that we're going
to be good with and so the reason I was
asking is this a land dispute or is this
a moral
quandry if this is a moral quandry and a
question of a cultural belief in Justice
people will do crazy things to get
Justice and now you're going to have if
both sides see it that way it's going to
be endless tip Fort because we're we're
here for justice yep uh also if this is
a religious thing and if this is really
about uh what God wants for each of us
who again going to be
intractable um but if on the other hand
this is people that don't yet see a
clear vision for how they make their
children's lives better than theirs but
they that's what they really want then
it's solvable
but there there is that's so obvious I
know that question has been asked a
gazillion times I don't even need to
hear it I know so it's obviously
dismissed it never comes up in debates
nobody ever talks about it I feel like a
lone voice in the wilderness going hey
why are we not asking the question of
how do you get both sides to say what's
better for my children yeah and then
let's do that
and it then it then we get lost in the
Weeds now again I said this earlier but
I think it Bears repeating for people to
understand my position the reason
getting lost in the weeds to me is is is
fruitless at a definitional level is
that people will look at the same thing
and they will see something different
yeah and if we don't share a view of the
facts which is extremely easy if we
don't share a view of the facts then
we'll just sit there and debate the
facts endlessly people will break even
deeper into tribes researching has been
so eye openening to see like oh people
just get into encampments and you can
watch the comments and people are just
like it is as if they're watching a
sporting match and it's like well if
they're on
team uh Omar then they're whatever you
say they're just stoked for it they
already believe in it they're cheering
for you like you either did good or bad
like oh you dunked on him here you
embarrassed him there and the other
side's doing the exact same thing and
I'm like wow th this isn't a sport
by allowing yourself to engage with this
like a sport is going to leave us here
but again bringing it back to Cypress
and many other places that have had a
similar
thing I'm not saying it's good I'm not
saying that there weren't tragedies
stacked on tragedies yeah I'm just
saying what is it about this one I wish
I had a note uh a paper and Pen to
because I had so many things that it's
all right at this point just I I had
many things as you were talking of
things that I would like to to kind of
address look in term I I don't think
that people see eye to eye on the
conflicts that have been solved that's
not the point of contrast it's not as if
everybody agreed about you know Cypress
and and turkey and Greece and that's why
that has been solved I think there's
still going to be diverging perspectives
for me what's wrong with Palestine and
Israel and why it feels
intractable it's still ongoing right you
can talk about Refugee situations that
happened so many years ago if the
conflict is settled then yes all you
have is memories and you know
remembering what it's like to have lived
once in this Village and you don't
anymore and it's a little sad but it's
not a continuous source of of tension
and the problem is that we have not
resolved the Israeli Palestinian
conflict and I come back to the fact
that the reason why we have not resolved
it is because there is an imbalance of
power that keeps it from being resolved
compromise happens when both sides have
a reason to compromise and what you have
right now is one side destroying the
other and paying a relatively minimal
price right that's what was unique about
October 7th is that Israel for the first
time in a very very long time paid a
significant cost for the fact that they
are denying Palestinians freedom and
human rights for the most part the way
Israel has existed for most of of the
past several decades is US provided
impunity and US provided immunity means
they get to do whatever the hell they
want to at minimal cost and that creates
a dynamic in which you cannot solve the
problem you've had negotiators from the
American team Aaron David Miller during
the peace process negotiations whose
complaint was far too often we behaved
like Israel's lawyer those were his
words and the US is not being a
reasonable mediator that is trying to
bring two sides together they're saying
they're constantly the pressure is on
one side the idea that what Israel wants
is reasonable what Palestinian wants oh
come on it's too much why don't you guys
just settle for this shouldn't you be
happy that we're giving you something
there is a constant attitude that
Palestinians ought to be happy with
crumbs while enabling Israel to do
whatever it wants that keeps this
conflict from being solved on the
question of sports and comments by the
way I think that's a really fascinating
conversation because I do think that
this is one of the ways in which um
social media has kind of ruined our
discourse in in one of many ways really
and the idea is that we trivialize these
things to the point to where people
that's how they engage with them that
you
end the search for solutions for for
serious meaningful engagement for me and
that's my criticism for example of of
somebody like Destiny is Destiny from my
perspective is not a particularly
well-informed on this topic and yet one
of the most difficult and challenging
opponents I've ever debated on this
topic he's just really good at it it's a
it's a natural talent I think you've
described him at some point as having
high intellectual horsepower which I
think is is is correct but it does not
feel like there is investment sort of
there is a a huge consumption of Israel
talking points and a way to throw these
things back at you in order to win an
argument the Shields being an obvious
one if the Israeli Supreme Court is
siding against the Israeli military on
this practice they're calling it human
Shields and they're saying it's wrong it
needs to stop what's the incentive for
somebody like Destiny to go oh no
actually it's not so bad it's just fine
and siding with the Israeli military
against Israeli Supreme Court from my
perspective it seems like if you're
engaging with this in good faith that's
an easy one to say okay fine you're
right about that but some people do
argue for the sake of arguing it does
feel like it's about teams and I'm going
to prove that I'm going to win this
argument by you know owning you and
shutting you down and dunking on you and
so on and that has manifested in a way
that I think is really really unhelpful
and you see people sometimes even talk
about politics in a way that is similar
to sports of we cheer for different
teams but then after the game we're just
still Pals and high five and for me
genocide in Gaza is not the kind of
thing in which we can just have a small
minor disagreement and oh yay we debated
and everything is great like for me this
is really meaningful and consequential
and and it nothing comes as important
and and to the topic of the Mass
Slaughter of a people and that to me is
not something that you can overcome as
the way that you would talk about just
cheering for two different teams at a at
a sporting event and just getting along
afterwards as much as I try to say that
I think we have too much polarization
and division but for me also part of it
there ought to be fundamental human
decency that there is a wide range of
Topics in which I can disagree with
someone and we can still be friends one
of my closest friends is obsessed with
the Second Amendment and thinks owning
AR-15s is really important I don't agree
at all but it's not it's not a it's not
a problem between us that we can have
this disagreement because for me there
isn't fundamental indecency at the core
of somebody who believes certain things
in a way that for me to be morally fine
with what's happening in Gaza feels like
something much much more serious that
it's more difficult for me to kind of
Overlook and treat like a
sport okay
um have you ever run the thought
exercise of
um have you ever heard of loving
kindness meditation I have not it's
actually it sounds dumb but it is so
useful so loving kindness meditation is
um where you sit and you meditate and
you imagine yourself pushing a bubble of
Love out every time I explain this
sounds so dumb but it really works uh
you're first it's a bubble that envelops
you and you have love for yourself and
then your family and then your friends
and then your neighbors and then
eventually you try to push the bubble
out to the whole world yeah um
um I would love a man that understands
this conflict as well as you do to um
find threads of connection to a
well-intentioned
person that has the like Diehard Israel
mentality because if you know this sort
of the the great man of History so
arguably my greatest um hero is Nelson
Mandela and what I found fascinating
about Nelson Mandela was when he came
out of prison his whole thing was about
unity and you wanted to bring people
together and so it is going to take
people on both sides that that see a
path together and right now what I see
are really smart people on both sides
that see why the other side is an
why and that's trivial why the
other side is hellbent on killing and
death and that the the other side is so
wrongheaded and wants to kill us that we
can never truly find peace and I hear
that coming out of both sides so I know
how naive and cheesy this sounds but I
actually don't know the there's a I
don't know that there's another way
there is a very mechanistic way which is
uh if you can get a human to believe
that tomorrow will be better than today
and if they take a certain set of
actions they can bring that about
there's hard wirring in the human mind
that that will pull you forward on that
now the only thing I don't understand
the religions on either side enough to
know if that normal injection point
breaks yeah and so um my
stepmother-in-law for instance um gets
kicked out of her home becomes a
refugee uh she ends up moving to England
studying finding love having kids and
she just was like I'm just going to
focus on the future I'm going to focus
on beautiful things and I'm not I'm just
not going to think about that and they
lost everything so it's like that would
have been brutal but she switched her
view to something more positive and so I
would love for somebody of your
knowledge and wisdom to find those
points of connection to this this is so
uh as a CEO you end up mediating for
these incredible humans that you have on
your team but you're watching them and
you're like how dumb can one human act
this is really crazy what the are
you guys doing and I I have learned that
you have to find a way for them to have
what I call an exit ramp you have people
talked a lot about this with Putin but
you never hear people or at least I
don't never hear people talking about
this with the Israeli Palestinian um
conflict and it goes something like this
uh you have a worldview I'm not going to
convince you to see my worldview I know
that so now I need to figure out how I
find an off-ramp for you where you don't
look like an in front of your
constituents Y and that has to happen on
both sides and so that everybody can
feel good moving forward
and every time I try to imagine that I
keep running into what even after
hearing your arguments and even being
able to articulate your arguments back
to you it feels like there there's an
invisible thing that I have not hit yet
at this point in the conversation I
suspect it's religious in nature but I
don't know that um and so no one wants
the off-ramp now I took a note a minute
ago this could be the most naive
question that that I've asked in a
series of naive questions um is this
really all just about the aloa mosque
and the West Bank and that's really the
game and until we settle that everything
else is a charade so I don't think so um
I think that religion amplifies the
tensions a little bit but I don't think
that this is the fundamental issue at
the end of the day um by the way just
for the record Palestinian Christians
are just as oppressed as as Palestinian
Muslims so this is not like a uniquely
Muslim Jewish thing I know some people
try to paint it that way but some of the
most prominent people advocating for
Palestinian rights are Palestinian
Christians Edward S Hanan ashrawi the
list even in the United States so many
pal you know somebody quit the
Biden Administration over Biden's policy
toward Israel and Palestine it was a guy
by the name of TK habash who is
Christian so I don't think that religion
really is is at the core of this but
obviously it inflames tensions a little
bit more um I think that it is
ultimately about a better future in
which people can en Envision their
children having a way to live in that
land in dignity and freedom I think that
is ultimately at its core and it's a
status quo in which one people get that
and the other don't and we're trying to
figure out how to get past that now you
bring up the love thing which I don't
think is cheesy At All by the way I do
think that it's it's one of the primary
critiques that I have of I think it's
our political discourse in general but
certainly exists within my Camp as well
is kind of seeing people who disagree
with us or who are uninformed as the
enemy in some way um and for me I think
that disinformation and misinformation
are the enemy and sure there are powers
that propagate that intentionally and
for me that's the opponent But
ultimately when I think of your average
uninformed person who just doesn't know
enough and gets it wrong um just because
that's the media that is available in
the mainstream frankly that's what
people consume to me it is absolutely
critical to reach to those people with
love and kindness and that does extend
to people who are on the other side of
this issue
and there is a way in which I've seen it
a close personal friend of mine is a
Russian Jewish guy who's talking to a
lot lot of his family members um who are
Israeli and he's having that struggle
internally and trying to figure out how
he can convince them that Israel is on
the wrong track and that Israeli policy
is wrong and so on and he's run into a
ton of
resistance he's within the community
he's not an outsider of his community
and so I don't think that this is really
the dividing line that I'm simply at the
point to where while I completely
acknowledge that approaching the things
with our common human and and decency
and and the kindness that we show one
another in in interactions is incredibly
helpful of resolving personal tensions
and you can absolutely get to a place to
where with people that you have very
very strong political moral whatever
disagreements with you can get to a
place to where you see each other as
Humanity really well the scale of what's
what we're witnessing in Palestine and
Israel cannot wait for these kinds of
personal connections to like eventually
de develop into something to me this is
a moment of inter accountability so I'm
and for what it's worth by the way
personally I've identify as agnostic I
don't believe in anything anymore um
and I just keep coming back to the fact
that
we have a situation in which to try to
resolve this through love and kindness
is possible but there is an urgency to
ending what is unfolding right now that
can't wait for us to naturally develop
positive feelings and let things play
out and see how we can do this through
personal connections there is an
apartheid regime condemned by every
major human rights organization in the
world Human Rights Watch Amnesty
International Israeli human rights
organizations critical of their own
government the United Nations Human
Rights Council you name it consensus on
the fact that this is an aparted regime
practicing an illegal occupation and
committing whether you want to agree on
the war genocide or not certainly
unspeakable war crimes and crimes
against humanity that's not in dispute
and there is a question right now
whether we should continue arming them
or not that just there is a time for
love and personal connection but there
is an urgency to saying we have to put
an end to this and you put an end to it
by making sure that they don't have the
weapons to carry on these atrocities
anymore and then after that is settled
after you put an end to the emergency
that is unfolding when we no longer have
thousands of people being killed on a
regular basis then we can sit down and
talk about how to build a meaningful
connection between Israelis and
Palestinians I keep going back to
apartheid South Africa because I think
that's a really really important example
of Truth and Reconciliation came after a
parthe fell Mandela became a uniting
figure after the political Injustice was
undone and he led by example of how to
be uniting and not to regurgitate old
traumas and and and hatreds and so on
and you have a scale of an injustice
that is unfolding before our eyes it is
simply premature to be talking about
building personal connections and
understanding each other in the face of
something this horrific that is
unfolding and just on the question of
genocide I know that the name that the
word invokes a lot of feelings that
people dispute it to me there's Arian he
uh his family fled the Holocaust he's
Jewish was born in
Germany founded Human Rights Watch
headed the ACLU for a while and kind of
just the respect that people have for
him as an authority on these kinds of
issues is unparalleled and he said at
the beginning of this I thought Israel
was only committing war crimes in Gaza I
thought that they were reckless in the
way they were targeting civilians but
after examining this a little bit more
closely and seeing the systematic
starvation and destruction of society in
Gaza I can't help but conclude that this
is a genocide I know this is one
person's opinion but it's not a random
person somebody who is Jewish is an
authority on these kinds of issues and
started with sympathy for Israel and
wanting to make excuses for Israel's
conduct and could not help by looking at
the fact but conclude that Israel is
systematically destroying Society
Palestinian Society in
Gaza well now let's really complicate
the issue and go back to what you were
saying about this is a moment for
international
intervention I have a a hypothesis as a
lay man that that isn't going to work
and the reason I don't think that that's
going to work is um it hasn't worked so
far and Israel seems like they are more
than prepared to continue to escalate uh
and Iran is lurking somewhere in the
background so I think it is necessary to
confront the Iran of it all um what is
Iran's role In This Moment y I will push
back just on your setup and I'll get to
Iran real quick I don't think we've ever
tried meaningful pressure on Israel
there have been a few occasions in the
distant past um there was a time in
which Ronald Reagan warned Israel to
instantly put an end to their bombing of
of Beirut and Lebanon because they were
causing immense casualties and it's
crazy to think that talk about how much
our political discourse shifted Reagan
compared it to the Holocaust and said
you have to put an end to it and Israel
immediately pulled the plug because they
understood that Reagan was really
putting his foot down in a very serious
way PA so we've been in this situation
since the end of World War II
effectively so no literally in whatever
70 years we need consistency right like
we have the individual instance
instances but if the US puts it foot
down there's a reason so this is this is
why uh Nations build alliances that uh
I'm sure there are things that Israel
has to offer to other people that makes
them not want to uh abandon their Ally
so for whatever reason which admittedly
on this I literally know nothing um but
if I look at the way that they're being
treated I say okay well clearly there
are uh there's a a mutually beneficial
relationship even if I don't understand
it yes and no so right when you think of
of why the relationship became what it
was the special relationship it came on
the back of the 1967 war in which Israel
defeated Egypt Syria and Jordan in six
days and just like blew everybody out of
the water captured all this massive
territory they tripled their size and I
think the US was interested in being
allies with a country that is that
powerful and so they thought this is a
good you know the the US had different
countries different parts of the world
that play Regional cop basically local
cops and having Israel be that for the
United States seemed like a no-brainer
and so Israeli military funding US
military funding for Israel jumped
100-fold very very quickly after that
and that is the natural Alliance is that
you have a region that is strategically
important they've got a lot of oil in
the region very important resource for
the world and you want to be allied with
a government which in contrast to other
like for example the Saudi government is
allied with the us but the government
does not represent its people it's it's
an authoritarian regime and so there's a
possibility of them being overthrown and
things could switch overnight the way
they happened in Iran there is an
Iranian dictator that was close with the
United States um we actually overthrew
an Iranian Democratic prime minister uh
madik back in the 1950s installed the
sha who was brutal um and then there was
this Islamic revolution more recently
that overthrew the us back dictator so
there's a fear that this thing could
happen when we Ally ourselves
exclusively with authoritarian
governments that don't really represent
their people and Israel offered a unique
um opportunity for us to be allied with
a government that effectively does
represent its people it's more or less
Democratic for its Jewish population and
there was some level of stability and
military power that came together that
made it made sense for us to be close
with them now I've examined it's
interestingly this is what I wrote my
Master's thesis on as sort of like
because you had a lot of arguments of
people saying the US doesn't benefit
anything from Israel Israel's taking
advantage of the US is the tale wagging
the dog it's a backwards relationship
and you've had many other people on the
other side of this saying no no no no
the Israel is there to serve us
interests that's why there is an
alliance and the us as an imperial Force
benefits from having Israel and I wanted
to resolve what that relationship was
and how it actually works and I noticed
that there's a contrast between what
Israel does in Palestine versus when
Israel oversteps on major significant us
strategic interests so when they tried
to sell military technology to China in
2005 George W bush took a stance very
aggressive one refused to meet with
Israeli diplomats and told them they
need to back off and they backed off and
they issued a public apology so you can
see that the US is in charge when it
matters but then when it comes to how
Israel treats the Palestinians there
isn't an overriding strategic reason why
uh the US cares about Palestinians and
this is where you see the Israel Lobby
in the US bully the US Administration on
multiple occasions you had it in 2002
you have it with the building of
settlements in general you constantly
have the US telling Israel you need to
stop these provocative acts of building
settlements and put an end to it and
Israel just constantly kicks SS in the
US face and just keeps expanding
settlements they did not run up against
a collection of us strategic interests
that would come together to push the
Israel Lobby down so in a way I can
admit that Israel is useful to the US in
some ways but I'll say that what Israel
is doing in Palestine is 100% harmful to
us interests there's no reason to back
it up and we' just this is where the
Israel Lobby has an outside uh an
outsized influence they have a ton of
money they're not afraid to show it they
brag about it um there was a time in
which somebody who worked at APAC
talking to Jeffrey Goldberg a pro-israel
journalist at the Atlantic pulled up an
napkin off the table and said see this
napkin within you know within 24 hours I
can get the signatures of 70 Senators on
it just kind of bragging at the fact
that they can get their way and that's
because they do spend their money and
they push their weight around in
Washington they OU members of Congress
who are critical of Israel and they try
to support people who are their power
has diminished slightly there is a
change in public opinion in America
where young people really diverge from
the older generation and they're
beginning to really push back on the
Israel Lobby in some ways but to me that
Dynamic on why we back them when they do
what they do in the West Bank in Gaza
that is absolutely not in America's
interest and that is the Israel Lobby
bullying American politicians to going
along with it to the point to where
we've created a political culture in the
US where you just our politicians sound
like robots no matter what you ask them
it's like I support Israel has the right
to defend itself two-state solution it's
just an empty slogan that doesn't mean
anything they just say it in response to
any thing that they're asked about like
kind of glitching Bots and that's kind
of where you can tell that this is not
you know this isn't driven by any kind
of American strategy where we have a
vision of where we want to go and not
and Biden keeps leaking to the press
that he has frustrations with Netanyahu
and why won't he do this and why won't
he do that and he tells him your bombing
in gazan is indiscriminate and it goes
too far and Rafa is a red line and time
and again Netanyahu disregards him and
you have a US Administration that is
basically worried about picking a fight
with the Israel Lobby and what that
looks like is the Israel Lobby
mobilizing pro-israel members of
Congress to attack the administration
for quote unquote being too hard on
Israel they just don't want to deal with
it the Palestinians don't seem like a
significant enough uh reason to invest
this political Capital like in defense
of Palestinians let's not have this
fight we have other National priorities
and that's how that's part of how Israel
keeps moving in a more extreme direction
we keep indulging it when it doesn't
really serve American interests even if
fundamentally there is an alliance there
that makes sense in a different set of
circumstances I think that the whether
they serve uh America's interest is
going to come down to um look it some of
this could just be money and politics so
setting that aside for now but um
serving America's interests again coming
back to Iran M sorry I missed yeah I
missed your main question no no not at
all but uh I do want to better
understand that so you've got
um uh Iran that's obviously been pushing
for years to try and become a nuclear
power which
um less nuclear Powers would be better
not more for what it's worth not nuclear
weapons it seems like everybody who's
investigated Iran have said that they're
not in the process of developing nuclear
weapons they are developing peaceful
nuclear energy that then has the
potential of being shifted into weapons
capacity but there's been zero evidence
of the fact that they're developing
nuclear weapons I just think that that's
a a note that is worth raising simply
because Israel is a nuclear armed
country and we constantly have this
discourse about how our friend can have
it but our foes can't and that's a
double standard that we ought to
question as well well I mean now just
speaking as somebody that lives in
America yes our friends can have what
they want and our foes get nothing uh
that I I think would be weird to
approach any other way but uh going back
to okay so one if you're looking
sideways at Iran which I suppose I am in
as much as it makes me uh tense the
tensions between the US and Iran so I'm
always a little uh skeptical but I don't
know enough about Iran so I'm certainly
on exploratory Mission here but um it
doesn't seem crazy to think that you
develop as much of your program as you
can under the guise of energy and then
if you get get a chance you switch over
to the weapons um
so I've heard it said that what's really
going on with Israel and uh Lebanon
what's going on with Israel and Gaza is
actually about Iran trying to create a
seven or eight front war against Israel
to weaken them so that they can I don't
know at some point launch an all out
offensive take them over eliminate them
as a state um what's your take on that
is that just crazy talk or it's got
elements that are accurate but the
cohesive picture I think is not and I
think that here's a way to think about
it just think of the relationship
between the US and Israel it's an
alliance there is a patron the US is the
patron we're the ones who give them all
the money and weapons but that doesn't
mean that Israel does whatever the US
wants it doesn't mean that everything
time Israel does something that that's
the us moving them and there's a similar
relationship between Iran and a bunch of
of groups in the region and again just
the history that I recounted is is
relevant because this all started with
the US overthrowing a democratic
government in Iran installing a brutal
dictator and then this revolution that
came a religious Revolution that
overthrew the us back dictator and
extreme hostility towards the US and the
hostage crisis and all that like
obviously we're familiar with the
history and now you have in the region
kind of the there's really three teams
if you want to think about it but there
are two main teams one is the US team
and that's Israel and other governments
that are Allied in one form or another
with with the US that's the Egyptian
government the Jordanian government the
Saudi government the amirati government
and so on and you have then an access
that what they call themselves the axis
of resistance which is resistance to us
Empire and heemy in the region and that
is Iran and its allies in Iraq in Syria
in Lebanon and in Yemen right now as the
kind of like the
counterforce and they have narratives I
mean ultimately this is about
geopolitics this is about countries that
want to spread their influence in the
region and Iran has a pretty powerful
narrative that is built on the Injustice
that Palestinians are suffering and it
gives them enormous uh leverage in a
region that is deeply frustrated with
the way Israel is getting away with uh
treating Palestinians the way it does
and this is a major point of weakness
for the United States that we talk all
this lofty rhetoric about freedom and
democracy and human rights and yet we're
arming and funding the destruction of
Palestinian Society with the most
horrible abuses and the denial of
freedom for Palestinians that speaking
out of both sides of our mouths has not
gone unnoticed on the region and so even
the populations of of rulers that are
pro us they're terrified of their
populations on this particular question
so you have the Egyptian government the
rhetoric is anti-israel even though the
policy is effectively pro-israel the
same thing with Jordan the majority of
people who live in Jordan are of
Palestinian origin and you're the US is
putting its allies in the region in a
very very difficult spot where they want
to be allied with the us but the price
is so high in terms of public opinion
and Iran is capitalizing on that in the
in a very very aggressive way and so
they do have a patronage a patronage
relationship with some of the powers
like Hezbollah and the hois where they
Supply them with weapons and money but I
think it would be wrong to describe
these as simply an extension of Iran or
tools of Iran Hezbollah and Lebanon is
an authentic Lebanese organization and
political movement and they represent a
significant portion of the Lebanese
Society the same thing with the hois in
Yemen they represent a significant
portion of of the yemeni population and
because they're willing to take a more
antagonistic role with Israel and the
United States and the Saudi government
and so on Iran is more than happy to
jump on that and provide backing and
assistance so it's a natural Alliance in
a sense of these two axes and
if you want to weaken again you just you
keep coming back to the same to to to
the same issue which is that if you're
interested in
weakening violent political movements in
Palestine that are saying Liberation can
only come through violence if you want
to weaken your Regional foes resolving
the issue of Palestine is an obvious
loow hanging fruit and day in and day
out the US says we support a two-state
solution the UN takes a vote on the
two-state solution the US intervenes in
vetos and Iran says look they're
Hypocrites it's just all lofty American
rhetoric but when push comes to shove
they're more than happy to arm and
continue and defend the apartheid regime
that rules Israel and all the crimes
that they are committing and that's a
very very potent thing so from a purely
geopolitical perspective no denying that
Iran does play a role in the fact that
they are um the a major the major power
in that access that is defiant towards
the US and Israel um a way to undermine
them would be to take away the biggest
grievance that the region has which is
the question of of Palestine and lack of
freedom for
Palestinians okay uh
if
for Hamas to stay in place and us
actually solve this so we could remove
from Iran their biggest weapon um could
peace ever happen with Hamas still in
place
I believe so and that's a reference I
mean I don't know how long it'll take at
this point obviously things are in a
very very different place but it's that
um signaling towards moderation that
happened when they won the election in
2006 um Jimmy Carter was in talks with
Hamas and reported back that he sees
that there's potential to work with them
verified that the election was
Democratic and that they're basically
willing to moderate and play
ball we're many many years room from
that that so I can't tell you that you
can snap your finger and everything goes
back to normal um but to me rather you
know this obsession with removing Hamas
from Power I think is extremely
misguided if we say that groups that
commit Mass
atrocities must be eliminated for peace
to move forward the obvious logical
conclusion of that is you have to
eliminate the Israeli government because
no party in this entire region between
you know between the river and the sea
in Palestine has committed greater
atrocities than the Israeli military has
but we don't think that's a reasonable
starting point we don't say you have to
decapitate the Israeli government then
we can talk peace you accept that this
is an existing structure and part of
what you do is that you have to make
peace with unsavory characters and that
means sitting down and talking I think
it's very similar I think that there is
reasonable reservations that people have
on Hamas it's not crazy to think that
they're not the most prone towards
flexibility in negotiation or anything
like that but at the same time they're
the structure that exists and I think
that engaging them um as a step towards
trying to find a solution a peaceful
solution I think is a reasonable way to
to how do you deal with the fact that
they've said we'll do October 7th over
and over oh boy if I wanted to recount
to you how many genocidal Israeli
statements have been made by Israeli
leaders the list is endless it's not
about what rhetoric people use at any
given point I think it's about whether
you think that there's room to move
people or not and starting with
something as simple as a ceasefire
they're saying we'll give up all the
hostages just end the war and then
Netanyahu found a reason to say no to
that he they insisted on a temporary
ceasefire and then finally Hamas buckled
under American pressure on the C
government and said okay fine temporary
six week ceasefire and we'll give you
back the hostages and Israel still found
a reason to say no because they said
they want to leave troops in Gaza to
control this Corridor and that Corridor
and what have you so I think you start
with again ending the onslaught getting
a basic and simple agreement as a
ceasefire and then we can see where we
can go from there towards building um
some kind of comprehensive peace
agreement but along the way in which
this has been promising the primary
obstacle has always been the Israeli
government it has been for decades now
that they are the primary impediment
towards resolving the conflict and you
see it in the UN votes that's where it's
a major demonstration the UN General
Assembly votes on the question of
Palestine it's always the entire world
on one side saying Israel has to
withdraw from the occupied territories
and then the US and Israel and a couple
of tiny countries that they bullied into
voting along with them there's a sharp
contrast between the way the you know
the the way people around the world view
this and we really are an outlier in our
insistence on Israel blocking the
possibility of a peaceful solution and
insisting that the only way the American
rhetoric the only way there's going to
be peace is through negotiations well
you've got an imbalance of power between
two parties and you've watched what it
looks like when they negotiate
Palestinians were never consulted when
Israel was created they never had to
okay it why is it that Israel has to
okay a Palestinian State why is that a
requirement from one side and not the
the other and instead we just keep
funding this occupation indefinitely and
saying only when Israel feels good about
having those talks and having them lead
somewhere as when something could happen
yeah this is where I think um your
worldview of this is largely not
exclusively but this is largely a moral
question and they need to do the right
thing runs
into uh real politique that this is
Israel is in a much stronger position
both militarily and in an alliance
perspective and so I imagine some of
this is just they're not going to give
up something that they don't absolutely
need to give up again I'm not defending
it I'm just saying this is where that's
the thing I think what you're saying is
absolutely correct which is where the
two-state solution compromise came from
there for a lot of Palestinians two
states where they only get the West Bank
Gaza and East Jerusalem is just you know
such they a lot of people actually
consider it unacceptable they think it's
way too far compromised that you give up
the overwhelming majority of hisor
Palestine that Palestinians were
ethnically cleansed from and yet it was
the position of the Palestinian
leadership and had the support of public
opinion of Palestinians who lived in the
occupied territories for a reason it is
that recognition of the fact that there
is an imbalance of power and we have to
compromise it just can't be you live in
a cage that's the compromise
Palestinians are not willing to go for
they're willing to go for a reasonable
two-state solution based on the 67
borders even though that is seeding a
lot that is a major Palestinian
compromise let's
run so um all right let's say that we
could convince Israel guys this is dumb
you've been fighting over this for a
very long time if you have a secret
desire you're going to take everything
over uh we America are going to pull out
never going to let it happen so now it's
time for you guys to uh you have to end
the blockade you've got to let these
guys um start doing their own thing
building a life for themselves and let's
fantasy fantasy fantasy land uh America
says Israel we love you to death we are
so glad that you're our special partner
uh but we are now a big hammer and if
you uh if either one of you messes with
the other we smash down on whoever did
the bad thing yeah
and what do you think would happen at
that point because let's say that the
floodgates of Aid unlock again and
they're flowing into Palestine what
makes me nervous is if you have Hamas in
control the whenever you're hiring
somebody you always say the most the
best predictor of future success is past
success so what did Hamas do with the
funds that they got before they built
these incredible tunnels they are really
incredible but obviously all military
all the time uh they didn't even let
civilians in there when civilians had no
place to go during the bombings so it's
like that doesn't feel like a good use
of funds that that feels like and feel
is the right word it feels like from my
perspective somebody who's here for
justice and they are not interested in
actually getting their state so I worry
that given that they did not get what
they wanted which I still don't have a
clear definition like if they get Gaza
as Gaza stands today no new settlements
uh maybe even a couple quick land swaps
so that that they're not intermingled
and you just draw a line and say yeah
settlements are not an issue in Gaza
right now like when Israel withdrew the
settlers like that was the West Bank
problem the West Bank is huge problem
because the very very deeply embedded to
the point to
where there is almost no way to EXT
extricate them at this point all right
let's forget that for a second because I
I want to follow experiment exactly so
uh do you trust I know you have huge
trust issues with Israel because you
believe that they want it all and that's
just the whole game uh but remember in
this fantasy America's gonna act as a
hammer so if they make a move for it
boom uh do you think that Palestine
would take that Aid and and build a
thriving economy or are we going to find
ourselves with more military buildup no
I think we would have and again I I'm
sorry if I keep going back to this but I
think it's just such a demonstrable
example of the beginning of the peace
process what the Palestinian Authority
was focused on is institution building
and trying to make life as normal as
possible that is where the energy was
focused and I have no doubt and again
what happened also during that time is
you had individual acts of violence you
had a Jewish extremist go into a mosque
and Massacre 30 people you've had Hamas
setting off suicide bombings so you're
not going to eliminate that completely
but the bulk of the way these societies
are going to function if there is a
genuine Prospect for freedom I think
it's going to be to normalize life
because we talked about this a second
ago sort of what's at the core of this I
don't think this is religious I don't
think this is about an abstract idea of
Justice I think people want to have a
better future for their children that's
what this is about and what you're
describing would open the door to that
and then it would be similar to you know
your story with Cyprus of yes I'm not
going to say that people are never going
to think and dream of what the past used
to be like and when Palestinians could
go everywhere they wanted to and so on
but you can get to a point to where the
primary focus of these societies is
going to be a better future for their
children and when the risk right like if
the risk of further military
confrontation for Israel with Israel
means that your otherwise free and
prosperous children are now going to be
reduced to Rubble again nobody wants
that the problem with Gaza right now is
that there's such a level of Despair
over what life has been like for decades
that it didn't seem that crazy for Hamas
to be able to recruit that many people
who are up to just cause trouble and see
what happens so are you ever going to
get everybody to go along with an idea
of a two- State solution probably not
you're going to get a lot of upset
people but at the same time by offering
people the chance for a better life I
have no doubt that from there you're on
much better ground to start negotiating
towards a better future and building
slowly towards it and dealing with
security problems as security problems
rather than a fundamental issue of
Injustice that has to be resolved okay
uh that's a fun fantasy now let me drag
us back into the filthy muck of reality
um there uh I saw R I wrote his name
down Rabbi flasher on uh Piers Morgan uh
said something along the lines of this
is a wild paraphrase but something along
the lines of uh the way that a war ends
is one side wins and the other side
loses and Israel is going to win we are
going to defeat Hamas and when we do we
are going to um take security control
over Gaza we are going to run it with
other uh players in the region Egypt I
don't remember if he said Jordan
definitely said Saudi Arabia uh and
we're going to to help rebuild um Gaza
and end up with a Gaza that is Terror
free and it will end up being wonderful
so in that Vision which I know you find
wildly unjust and absolutely horrifying
not just that by the way just that he's
fundamentally dishonest because his
track record is extremely lengthy about
saying that Israel should take control
of all the land and that it should
reoccupy Gaza and permanently take it
over oh he sounded like he was saying
that yeah okay in no un certain terms uh
the only difference I would say is he
was making it sound like in what I saw
that this would be done with other
nations in the region and um that the
goal would be to build it back up and
have something he didn't say to state
but that was what I chose to read into
it maybe yeah certainly not no he's he's
fundamentally opposed to the idea of a
Palestinian State and for him Israel
should be control of everything and it
is that formula control of everything
forever from from The River To The Sea
Forever This is Israel's land um he has
a very religious take on it believe it
or not the first time I debated him was
back in 2011 or something like it's it's
a wild back you've been at this for a
minute um and yeah he's got very very
deep religious convictions that this can
all be done through his strength and
it's should all be Israel conquest of
the entire land and frankly I'm almost
convinced that he thinks of October 7th
as a great opportunity for Israel to
finally do what he's always wanted it to
do which is to reconquer Gaza got it so
that that is a nightmare scenario for
you even if Gaza is rebuilt back into
something beautiful and the many players
in the region are overseeing everything
yeah I mean what to me it's it's
Palestinian Freedom that's what we want
at the end of it right like you could
have that now you don't need to go
through this entire charade just
Palestinians deserve to have freedom
they should rule themselves they should
have control of their own borders if
Israel is attached to the idea of
holding on to the entire territory fine
but then you have to give Palestinians
equal rights you can't have them held
there as subjects who don't get to vote
for the government that rules them
having it both ways is is the problem of
no State and no Freedom let's run then
the um the other thought experiment
where they're given rights in that
tiered system that you were talking
about it's no longer in open air prison
Israel is putting a ton of money into
rebuilding International Aid is flowing
in like crazy but there's no more Hamas
because they were soundly defeated uh
money is pouring in it's a coalition
government for lack of a better works I
don't want it in the thought experiment
I don't want it to be just Israel that
feels bad uh so it's a coalition
government um and we're rebuilding Gaza
they have equal rights in this new the
tiered rights yeah just to make it a
little more complicated a little more
realistic so you're describing basically
everybody in the occupied territories as
being currently Palestinian citizens of
Israel that tier that kind of yeah yeah
is that um dire tragic no nothing good
or is it still bad but boy oh boy is it
better than what oh would be
substantially better and the biggest
obstacle to that would be Israel would
never allow it to happen that's that's
where we are cuz if you can imagine if
the majority if if everybody in the
occupied territories has full voting
rights now the way Palestinian citizens
of Israel do um Israel can no longer
basically make decisions in advance of
one particular group you know there's a
vote that happens in the Israeli knesset
the Israeli Parliament every once in a
while in which Palestinian members of
the Israeli canet Palestinian citizens
of Israel put forth a bill that says
let's define Israel is a country of all
its citizens so that's not even the
occupied territories it's just defining
it as a country of all its citizens and
the Parliament shoots it down every
single time sometimes don't even let it
come to a vote because they don't think
that Palestinian citizens of Israel that
this is their country they're kind of
like a tolerated people within who have
come from do you think a Jewish
superiority position oh explicitly so
there's something called the Jewish the
the Israel nation state law in which it
says the right to self-determination in
Israel is unique to the Jewish people
that's explicit so they don't have a
constitution in Israel you could read
that not as like because we're better
but knowing a bit of the history about
why they suddenly felt so compelled to
have a state it's like we've had pgms
pograms for however long that's going to
set a thing in your psyche uh we just
had the Holocaust we're starting a
nation we will do whatever the it
takes yeah uh and I'm sure not all of it
was good but we end up getting our state
now I'm like I am not going to let
anybody mess this up and if that means
that I've got to tear my system I'm
going to tear my system but I'm I'm even
going to put into words that like
self-determination is only for the
Jewish people that way I just I don't
even have to worry like if we end up
getting outnumbered one day it is what
it is like the Constitution I guess not
that but whatever their founding
document is uh says that it's just for
us to make decisions yeah I get why they
would want that I also get why that's
but here's here's yeah it's two things
right there's the motivation of of why
they're doing it and then there's just
the the reality that they've created
with that smotrich who's currently part
of netanyahu's government his view by
the way interestingly enough he calls
himself a homophobic fascist or a
fascist homophobe I don't remember which
word this is his own self description of
I'm not sure what we're wearing there
but okay his position is we need to
separate Palestinian citizens of Israel
from Jewish babies and maternity War
wait say that one more time he wants to
separate Arab and Jewish babies in
maternity words he just doesn't want
them in the same room yes okay so you
can tell it comes from very deep racism
and the idea that we're not the same
people so like that those are people
currently in government the guy in
charge of Israeli National Security uh
Ben G he was convicted and it just tells
you also again about the slide of of the
Israeli mindset over time he was
convicted by an Israeli Court of
terrorism and anti-arab incitement and
currently he is serving in this
government as the head of National
Security things have moved in a very
very dark and ugly Direction in terms of
anti Palestinian sentiment so like
that's the driving force for a lot of
that it's the idea that these people are
not equal to us and therefore we should
find ways to get rid of them or confine
them or if they want to stay here fine
just you don't have rights and you have
to take it that is the attitude with
which they they view Palestinians so all
of it is geared towards reducing their
rights and yeah at at every turn it's a
it's an apartheid regime through and
through and public opinion is not
shifting in a better Direction but in a
worse one so I know nothing about the
things you're describing right now but I
know humans well enough to know that
just like in America you have
Psychopaths uh that they're not usually
in charge of government though the
people who Express views like obviously
we have a ton of racist people in this
country are you kidding so but I mean
this in this way half of the country
thinks that Donald Trump is the next
Hitler so what I'm getting at is you've
got literally America is good people on
both sides okay so I've
got red and blue and boy oh boy do I not
agree with a lot of them
but it
is interesting at the deepest level that
half of these incredible people can look
at Trump and say this is the next coming
of Hitler and we're making jokes when he
almost got assassinated and then the
other half looks at him as the Savior
and is the only thing saving our country
from certain demise I get Whiplash as
somebody who is constitutionally Center
I get Whiplash seeing that but I
understand that even from within my own
country people will look left into the
right and see just Insanity like they
just they can't believe it these people
have to be sto stopped at all costs so I
understand how in a democracy you're
going to get this kind of thing so I
don't doubt for one second the inside of
Israel are people who are like you need
to separate these babies because they
are beneath us they're horrible get them
away but I've got to believe that there
is also a huge swath of people that
are I want beautiful things for
everybody that comes in contact with
Israel and that this is really a
question of assimilation and
I need to look at the uh the tiered
system because I'm not sure I'm
comfortable with that but I get the the
protection impulse in practice it just
may be too gross but I understand how
again with all the persecution that
they've had for thousands of years I get
how you're like okay Line in the Sand
um but my gut instinct is that
it again I am I am not educated in this
this is just me speaking speaking about
what I know to be true about humans yeah
that I have a feeling that it's not all
one side or the other that there are
going to be people that want to see
everybody United but assimilation will
be important yeah there's there's a line
between right it's never you don't want
to view things in black and white good
people and bad people and all that stuff
like there is no strict dividing line
but there are injustices of a scale
where it does require you to take that
kind of position like for me if you were
to look back at Jim Crow and think oh
the black white conflict in America is
so awful but there are good people on
both sides and if you can only get
together and whatever yes like maybe
there are good individual people on both
sides sure but we're not talking about
that we're talking about the fact that
there is a political
Injustice and that's what we're
describing here is that of course there
are tons of good Israelis who are
well-intentioned and so on public
opinion shifting in a negative Direction
so there's more of the ones who don't
view Palestinians as equals
fundamentally but nonetheless of course
there are good people but we are looking
at a fundamental Injustice we are at a
juncture right now in which you have a
historic atrocity being committed we've
seen those being committed before were
there good Germans in Nazi Germany of
course there were were there good
Russians in stalins Russia in the Soviet
Union of course there were but you're
confronting a massive atrocity right now
where it's not about finding common
ground it is about putting an end to an
absolute horror that is unfolding and
that's the thing that I keep going back
to you know when we were talking earlier
you mentioned something about
of course our friend we're talking about
in the context of of Iran and Israel of
course our friend get to have whatever
they want and our opponents don't but
we're trying to preach an international
order that we want everybody to come
together under that's the idea after
World War II is that we created the UN
and the international institutions and
the nurenberg trials and the ideas from
now on the same rules apply for everyone
and it's a fundamental principle I think
it's called the principle of moral
universality which is if something is
right for me it's right for you if I can
say you can't do it then by definition I
also should not be able to do it as an
international order and running the
world the way the US currently wants to
which is our friends get to do whatever
they want including carry out genocide
and it's not a big deal we'll just
softly tell them can you please tone it
down but then our opponents the second
they step out of line in any direction
were mobilizing our military and getting
ready to shut them down that's you're
running it like a mafia you're not
running a just world and for me looking
at it from the perspective of we're
trying to build a world in which we
don't have as much death and suffering
and Injustice and misery that has to be
a world in which we say the same rules
apply across the board for everyone and
in the case of Israel Palestine it has
to mean in some fashion that
Palestinians get what Israelis get my
personal preference is a one state in
which everybody lives together I
understand that that might be very
difficult politically to get to because
of Israeli Society feeling insecure
about the possibility of being a Jewish
minority and so on there's an
alternative to that which is that you
end the occupation and for me it is
utterly inexcusable that somebody can
simultaneously say we're too afraid to
give Palestinians equality while
insisting on ruling over them and never
letting them have their own State and
their own freedom because of the way you
feel feelings are valid it's fine that
you feel the way you feel you're not
entitled based on your feelings to go
and violate somebody else's rights and
deny them if I don't like my neighbor if
I'm suspicious of what my neighbor might
be doing inside their home I have the
right to feel that I don't have the
right to go install cameras in his house
and say I don't know what you're doing I
don't feel safe with you next to me
there's a line that has to be drawn
somewhere and we can't build our
international relations based on the
feelings of people within our country we
have to say you don't get to oppress
other people and deny them their rights
because of the way you feel that ought
to be a clear line that we draw this end
all right fully acknowledging that you
believe that what happened on October
the 7th was because Israel made it very
clear you guys have no other options you
will never taste Freedom again this is
forever um how should Israel have
responded to that Invasion I don't know
what word you want to put on it I think
it's fair it's a it's a major attack and
again like had it been I know we've I've
Niche arguments about the justification
for the attack or not had it been
exclusively on the Israeli military
bases I think there could been an
argument to be made that this is an act
of resistance this is a foreign
occupation Army by the way on a
technicality The Siege the UN and many
human right organizations consider it a
continuation of the occupation even
though they withdrew settlers from
within just because they're effectively
in control of all of Gaza had this been
an attack exclusively on the Israeli
military I think you could have said
that this is an act of resistance but
because it included an attack on Israeli
civilians as well it's just
transparently not justified and there is
no way to justify it but if our were
Israel's leader
the day it happened and you said what
would you do now for me it's really easy
I would come take on the podium and say
we've realized that we've created a
situation that is untenable it is making
everybody insecure and unsafe and so we
are going to end the unlawful blockade
and end the illegal occupation and in
exchange we want Justice for what
happened so we want every person who has
participated in the October 7th attacks
particularly the ones targeting Israeli
civilians to hand themselves over over
for war crimes trial I think
that's what the my closest approximation
to justice is it anywhere near realistic
is this are we anywhere in the vicinity
of something like that happening we are
not
and it is only going to come about when
Israel feels that it's not that feels
that sense that they can't behave and do
whatever they want with impunity and I
really going back to where we started
which is that you can do that through
American diplomatic and financial
pressure or you can allow Untold death
and suffering to occur in a major
regional War that's going to escalate
and take many different shapes before
Israel ultimately comes to that
conclusion I think that that is the end
result is that because situations of
Injustice are inherently uh in a state
of disum because not everybody satisfied
and therefore they're not going to put
put up with it forever we're going to
end up in a situation in which there is
equilibrium and that could be I guess
theoretically if you want to be really
morbid the complete elimination of one
side or the other or achieving a balance
in which both sides have paid such a
heavy cost that they're both prepared to
come to a compromise and my problem with
the current Dynamic is that the
Palestinians have paid an Incredible
cost and therefore have demonstrated a
willingness to compromise and be
flexible while Israel has seen nothing
but impunity for many many years and
therefore there is that enti M to just
do whatever they want and keep confining
Palestinians to smaller and smaller
places and thinking that you can Pummel
Palestinians into submission despite
endless history proving that to not be
the case all right we're coming up on
the election who do you think is going
to be better for resolving this conflict
kamla Harris or Trump so I think they're
both awful on this particular issue so
it's funny because I've always been my
personal politics lean more towards
Bernie Sanders on domestic issues on
foreign policy I think the entire
political establishment's kind of skewed
on this I'm to the left of the
democratic party and I've always
believed that election day is about harm
reduction and therefore you vote for the
person who's going to reduce harm as
much as possible and for me that has
been for most of my voting life feeling
like I need to vote Democrats because
they're better on even though their
foreign policies are very similar and
they're not going to drastically change
anything on this question
on issues of you know labor rights and
the environment and so on the Democrats
seem to be a little bit more willing to
challenge corporate power they're both
ultimately serving the corporate class
and yet there's some level of Reform
possible under Democrats in a way that I
think with um Republicans from my
perspective it's just been way too
accommodating for big business denial of
climate change massive tax breaks for
the wealthy and so on and it felt like
that's leading us towards a less just
Society for the first time now and by
the way when it was time for the last
election I felt very strongly about
getting Trump out of office I thought he
had been dangerous for our democracy
proved it so on January 6th and Beyond
um and I made a video talking about even
though I think Biden is going to be bad
on Palestine when you consider all the
other ways that Trump is more harmful
it's important to get Trump out of
office and to vote for Biden that was my
position I'm really having a hard time
this time around in that I it feels that
even though my suspicion is that kamla
Harris would be a little bit
better the scale of the violence again
genocide in my view feels like a line
that is harder to cross to say I'm going
to vote for the administration that has
enabled genocide for the past 10 months
because unbalance it might be a little
bit better than the other one there is
something about me knowing
directly people in my life who have lost
loved ones in Gaza a friend of mine who
described his mother standing on the
rubble of her home trying to sh away
dogs for two days straight to keep them
from eating the bodies of her children
and
grandchildren to see people currently in
power enable that kind of horror and to
defend it at every turn and to Gaslight
Palestinians and to pretend they're
looking for a solution even though
they're arming and funding the problem
that to me is so
viscerally repulsive that I'm finding it
very very difficult to say I'm going to
go to the voting booth and vote for the
Democrats again this time nonetheless
I'm also cognizant of the fact
that we do have those two options and
Trump for me domestically is a threat to
democracy obviously the what he has you
know like people shooting at him and all
that stuff is should that should have no
place in our politics but I also believe
that he's contributed to an environment
in which things have moved to a more
extreme in a more extreme Direction
domestically and to try to overturn an
election that you lost to try to
overturn democracy to me is a red line
and that it's just it's it's crossed and
I can't imagine a scenario in which I
would vote for Donald Trump but also on
this particular question when you look
at what the Trump Administration did
they whatever little restrictions we had
there was a contrast between American
policy in rhetoric and apparent policy
in action on Palestine Israel for many
years our rhetoric was we support
Palestinian statehood we opposed the
Israeli occupation we opposed Israeli
settlements but the actions were
enabling all these things Trump came
along and resolved that contradiction
but in the wrong side instead of fixing
our actions to match our correct policy
positions he changed our policy
positions to match our shitty actions so
he said settlements are not illegal we
recognize the legitimacy of Israeli
settlements in the West Bank said the
Syrian Golden Heights that Israel took
over that's part of Israel now moved the
US Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem
recognize Jerusalem as Israel's Capital
all these things are in complete and
total violation of international law and
show complete and total disregard for
Palestinian rights and so he moved
policy in a worse Direction and he
picked a couple of people who were kind
of driving policy one is his son-in-law
Jared Kushner who's personal friends
with Benjamin Netanyahu and apparently
when was a child you know Benjamin
Netanyahu and he would visit his family
would sleep in his bed and so on so like
very very close relationship with an
extremist right-wing government in
Israel and worst the guy he appointed as
his um ambassador to Israel David
fredman is just an allout religious
fanatic by any measure of of that word
he accused Obama of being anti-israel
because Obama barely tepidly tried to be
kind of even-handed in some cases but
not really um he accuses American Jewish
organizations like J Street J Street by
the way is a pro-israel organization but
they also think that Palestinians ought
to have a state he accused them of being
copos he compared them to Nazi
Collaborators because they recognize
some Palestinian rights putting that guy
in charge of policy and making him the
ambassador to Israel was obviously a
signal that things are going to move in
a far far worse Direction and he gets
credit for what people describe as the
Abraham Accords um they call them peace
deals and they're not peace deals those
deals were between governments that are
already quietly allied with the US and
Israel declaring those alliances
publicly in exchange for military and
financial incentives that's what that
was and we made a big thing about it you
know Trump brought peace to the Middle
East there was never war between these
people like there peace to you know
where's the conflict that was resolved
if anything it isolated the Palestinians
even further because prior to that the
entire Arab League took the position
that we will only recognize Israel and
fully normalize relations with them if
Israel fully ends the occupation and
allows a Palestinian state to exist that
was their position Trump peeled
individual countries away from that and
so he was further isolating Palestinians
and in my view that made the events of
October 7th all the more likely that
when Palestinians are squeezed that feel
like the entire world is abandoning them
including allies of theirs and that
they're going to be stuck living without
rights forever that dramatically
increases the the the possibility of
there for you know of a violent reaction
and I don't think that it's a stretch to
tie Trump to the fact that this happened
and he likes to brag as he brags about
everything is like oh if it were for me
none of this would have happened and
this and that but I think his policy did
contribute to the fact that things
became more desperate and created more
despair among Palestinians which
therefore created a the laid the
groundwork for a much wider explosion
that that we've actually
seen Omar this has been wonderful where
can people follow along with you for now
just on social media I'm on Twitter or X
at Omar badar just my name or on
Instagram at obad those are the two
primary channels but people can whoops
people can just Google my name and find
me on different social media as well I
love it thank you man for taking the
time I appreciate it very much speaking
of things I appreciate if you haven't
already be sure to subscribe and until
next time my friends be legendary take
care peace if you like this conversation
check out this episode to learn more
there is an expression is saying in in
in the Islamic context first we come for
the Saturday people then we come for the
Sunday people the Saturday people are
the Jews the Sunday people are the
Christians I can I can link pretty much