Kind: captions
Language: en
do you think men are being taught to be
weak right now yes definitely what oh no
it's worse than being
taught they're being enticed toward that
in every way tell me more and punished
for not doing it well they're enticed
towards it by well well the insistence
for example that there are modes
of less worthy being than the masculine
let's say because masculinity itself is
toxic to its core a manifestation of
patriarchal oppression that male
ambition is nothing but a manifestation
of the force of tyrannical power that
not only oppresses the oppressed but the
world Jesus brutal so there's that so
that and then any deviation from any
deviation in that
direction the desire of a four-year-old
boy to play with guns for example well
we have to rub rub that out it's like oh
well do you you're going to rub out your
son's ability to point and shoot are you
that's that's what he'll do is his whole
life going to go to war with that in
your feminine virtue toxic masculinity
it's like great Harpy Warfare it's awful
it's awful you know but it's it's part
of this belief and that's derived from
this Unholy Nexus of agreement between
the postmodernists and the metam
marxists that the only story is one of
power and Men wield the power and
therefore all masculine virtue is
identical to the striving for power and
that's immoral in its Essence it's
basically the most
pathological brandishes of that Doctrine
presume that male virtue is
indistinguishable from malevolence and
so the best you can do if you're a man
is to castrate yourself and oh god well
what that's what's happening in the
culture it's act literally happening
it's not even it's not even
symbolic that's that's the offering
that's the ultimate offering to the to
the great mother that's a great way
Freud knew this Yung knew this this is
well mapped out this is well mapped out
in the psychological and and symbolic
spheres you've asked a lot of people I
don't know if you've ever gotten a
satisfying answer I haven't heard it yet
but what happens when the left goes too
far
or yeah where does the left go too far
yeah yeah well it's Equity clearly I POS
that to it was either Brett Weinstein or
his wife Heather Hine and cuz I said
look what I see in the world right now
is what it looks like when women become
pathological that the things that are
good nurturing wanting to care for
people when that goes too far and I
devouring mother would be your phrase
but it's a perfect phrase um yeah that's
the sin of Eve that's the Eternal sin of
Eve to to even clasp the serpent to her
breast my compassion is so overpowering
there's nothing it can't incorporate
even the fruit of the of evil
itself that's the fall of Man yeah
that's being playing out like in Spades
rapidly
miraculously yeah it's very very bad
very very
dark so I know that if we don't find a
way to um make men I would even say
strong I think strong is a part of it
but invite them invite them to be strong
invite them to become what healthy
masculinity looks like now the question
becomes to from where I'm standing I
will give you the image that I use a lot
I use this in business all the time uh
when things are getting really hard I
imagine myself in a loin CA
covered in the blood of my enemies with
a big [ __ ] sword in my hand yeah and
that imagery helps me stay focused be
strong be hard when I need to be hard
not that I'm you know imagining killing
indiscriminately but that I need to be
able to step into aggression and
aggression is the right word and when I
um that's why Andrew Tate is so so
attractive to young men dude so much
he's utterly fascinating to me 90% of
what he says scares me to death because
it actually is toxic masculinity but 10%
is so good that I'm like you cannot
dismiss this kid people are complicated
a but the thing is is that the the
more okay so so the perversion of
warrior in some ways is psychopath and
you know that because you watch like
mafia movies so we all know this okay
but but there's a dreadful attraction in
untrammeled aggression for men who are
so
crushed that they're castrated that's a
good way of thinking about it so so the
attraction that the that the Andrew Tate
Persona let's say has on those young men
there's actually a lot of that that's
positive now that doesn't mean that
that's the right target
but
it there are creative ways of being
wrong that are helpful right right now I
you know you see better examples of that
precisely that in people like Joo
willink and David goggin and Joe Rogan
like these are tough guys you know but
they're not they don't have the sex
appeal though that's one thing I'll give
Andrew Tate like yeah but that's partly
because they don't want it yeah yeah but
it isn't that they couldn't have it like
it's that they've they've decided that
everything in its proper place Rogan has
a family you know that's that's where
he's put it and and hey man good work
work good work to him you know and that
sex appeal that Andrew Tate has that's
the sex appeal of the short-term Mater
that's the psychopathic sex appeal
that's the dark tetr sex appeal it's
shallow it's shallow and it will get him
in trouble I mean it's already got him
in trouble and so that's not going to
unless he you know wises up precisely
that it'll get him in trouble you know
and I'm I'm not trying to take him apart
I mean I think what he did with his with
his capitalization on female sex uality
is absolutely
unforgivable but well I that's enough of
that I mean that was that was beyond the
pale in my estimation there was no
there's no excuse for that whatsoever
now you know if you're a basement
dwelling in cell the mere fact that you
could imagine ever doing that sort of
like you imagining yourself you know in
a loin cloth covered with blood the mere
idea that a man which is what you are
could even imagine manage doing that
having a herum you know of women who are
offering sexual favors at at your beck
and call that's a much higher calling
than castrated over obese resentful
loser who can't leave the basement right
because that's an even low I suppose you
know when you're in the lowest rung of
Hell the rung right above looks like
heaven and and it it's up it's
up that aggression not aggression is
very very necessary you know it's it's
very necessary and sports are a great
way of of of putting that in its proper
place especially team sports because you
you can take that competitive Instinct
and that instinct to
win that instinct to be competent more
deeply and you can you can put it in its
proper place and it is an immense source
of
implacability immense now in a certainly
something I draw on when I lecture for
example like it's a source of energy is
just sitting right
there interesting why is that so
effective anger aggression is a a very
primordial Instinct very and and it it
activates both the positive emotion
systems which are forward moving and the
negative emotion systems that awaken you
it's high stress like there's nothing
more stressful than being angry it's
very Str psychophysiologically demanding
it's very psychophysiologically
stressful but also as a as a
alerting as a form of alerting arousal
in some ways it's unparalleled and and
it's great to have it at hand you you
don't want to rep see the Freudian model
with regard to aggression was repression
like we have this terrible ID that's
trying to make itself clamber upward you
know all red and tooth and Claw there's
some truth in that but his model of how
that was regulated by
socialization it was insufficient it's
not depression it's not inhibition now
he kind of knew that because he talked
about sublimation P Jean P had a much
better model much more much wiser and PJ
observed actual children a competitive
child who's socialized integrates the
capacity for aggression into the game
and then he becomes the player every kid
wants on his team because he still wants
to win so he's he's got that forward
driving intensity and skill but but he
does that in a manner that brings
everyone along with them right so then
it's not aggression isn't inhibited it's
integrated and and the more aggression
you can integrate well the more
compelling you are 100% like that's
that's the that's what that's what women
are after that's because the fundamental
I think the fundamental female hero
story is essentially Beauty and the
Beast and a woman is after a a civilized
Beast like literally that's that all
female pornography has that structure
civilized Beast you know and it can tilt
a little hard in the Beast Direction
when it gets a little M masochistic and
it you know can turn a little hard in
the in the Civilized Direction when it's
kind of a like when it's a romance that
tilts more in the direction of
friendship Woody Ellen would probably be
a good example of that as a character in
his own movies but you know there's a
you can imagine that there's a range in
there where the solution can be offered
in a variety of different forms yeah I
think you were the the one that pointed
me to a book that was utterly
transformational a billion Wicked
thoughts yeah yeah right what I find
really interesting is it isn't just a
civilized Beast it is a beast I civilize
with my magic hooa which is what they
say in the book right but that that I
find very interesting and has somehow
become wom probably did the same thing
to men that humans did to wolves that's
[ __ ] Interesting
Man uh tell me more about that that is
really well you know you want a wolf
like that's trying to eat you or do you
want a wolf on your side well that's the
situation women are in I mean you've
seen the cartoon representations do Tex
Aver's cartoons from the 1940s I think
they were the 40s with the wolf who's
like completely
sexually what obsessed with Tex fing out
of his eyes and and he's always after
the singer who sings Old Wolfie you know
it's perfect it's perfect yeah women
definitely tame men obviously yes
clearly they probably tamed them by
offering them sex and fruit you know so
they gatherers women are gatherers
they're not Hunters really makes me sad
that we can't that the uh public
discussion around this people gets so
weird about so fast you actually did a
really amazing interview I think her
name was Dr Sarah Hill yeah yeah yeah
yeah Sarah was good I found that utterly
fascinating talking about just what men
do to get women's attention the demands
women make yeah literally that all and
anything is the answer to that 100% My
Success is literally tied to my desire
to impress my now wife then uh fiance
when I really turned it on I was like
whoa I've got to be the corelation
between male trappings of socioeconomic
success and male reproductive success is
like it's like s for women it's negative
it's zero it's lower than zero like men
don't care at all about
the wom men aren't looking for in women
for what women look for in men correct
so and not a bit even not a bit even and
and that plays out also in the structure
of female motivation you know men are
very competitive they'll and and in unid
dimensional in some ways oneeyed you
might say right and there's an immense
symbolic level of web of associations
around that idea the oneeyed giant well
the penis is a oneeyed giant like
obviously right and it's it's a
seeking it's a it's part of a seeking
system seeking women and it'll do that
unidimensionally right and so and men
are like that Freud knew this the men
are like this from the cellular level up
and so they'll specialize they'll hyp
specialize
obsessively in a manner women are just
not interested in they can but they're
not interested in it and partly they're
not interested in it because that isn't
what doesn't attract men that that
capability you know the the men I worked
with in big law firms for example hyper
competitive men you know and they were
they're very concerned about their bonus
but not because they needed the money
said well the money is just a way of
keeping score and they all said that
they all knew that they laughed about it
it's like they wanted a bigger bonus
than the next guy the amount didn't
matter the comparative amount mattered a
lot and it was it's part of a status
ranking you know and and that's
everything for young men status ranking
God yes I mean they'll they'll die for
that they'll kill for that like it's not
like we don't know this it's in the
criminology literature this is Crystal
Clear know the gang a tremendous amount
of gang violence
is is status competition but even more
than the even the economic element of
that is subordinate to the status
competition so yeah that's that's C
clear crystal clear so all right there's
another idea that I need to put this
post or counter enlightenment idea up
against uh what's going on in Hamas
Israel that conflict you've got two
religions supposedly both packaging up a
ton of wisdom but when they Collide it's
ugly and it won't go away is there a
danger in trying to communicate wisdom
in a religious package of course there's
danger in every in everything in every
Endeavor
um the danger is the confusion of the
religious Enterprise with dogmatic
certainty fundamentally I mean there's
no reason to assume at all that the
religious Enterprise can't degenerate
into totalitarian psychopathy for that
matter does all the time not least
because it's in the interest of the
totalitarian Psychopaths to hijack the
religious Enterprise now they do that
all the time that's their modus operandi
again that's the same people that Christ
is contending with constantly in the
gospels I mean at multiple levels he
contends with the tyrants themselves
from Rome but it's not like there's no
tyrants in the Jewish community and all
of those tyrants use religion to be
tyrannical with and yeah it's the most
egregious sin or one of the most
egregious sins so the third commandment
it depends on how you count them but the
third commandment is generally held to
indicate something like like do not use
God's name in vain and people think that
means don't swear and it kind of means
that some trivial way but mostly what it
means
is do not claim Divine motivation for
self-serving behavior and that's what
all the protesters are doing we're so
compassionate in public it's like no I
don't think so I think you're
narcissistic Psychopaths fundamentally
and if you're not well at that moment
you're certainly possessed by that
Spirit look at how good we are that's
why Christ says in the gospels not to
let your left hand know what your right
hand is doing if you're going to be good
do it in secret why so you don't so you
don't fall prey to the temptation to
make your good subordinate to your
pride right that's what the bloody edle
mothers do all the time look how much I
love my
son yeah he doesn't even have a penis
anymore we solved that problem for him
wow yeah wow it's so bloody it's so
brutal it's so dark it's it's virtually
unimaginable it's such a pit it's so
awful and then the mother can parade
around with what what has she got her
son's genitals on a stick so she can
parade down the street oh absolutely and
show her neighbors look how
compassionate I am no matter what he
turns into I still love
him brutal would you say that or would
it be something more along the lines of
he is so loving and so compassionate for
having been at my breast that he has
essentially voluntarily discarded these
tox name that'd be her cover
story and you know the other part of
that secret desire is well immense
hatred for men immense immense hatred
for men for for or For What that
particular breed of woman thinks men
stand for and are so you know where
where does that come from if for comes
from all sorts of places lots of those
lots of women like that were terribly
damaged by Men by power Mad Men you know
who hurt them in all sorts of terrible
ways they lots of these people you know
you hear their story and you think well
it's no wonder you think that way but
that's that's no that's no excuse
because many people who are terribly
abused don't grow up to be abusers they
decide that they're going to take the
opposite route you know you can learn a
lot from being abused and one of the
things you can learn is not to do it so
what idea has possessed them that makes
them break bad when that horrific thing
happens to
them I think you have to read my new
book I can't I can't I can't simp it's
too complicated to simplify see if I can
come up with some
reasonable I'm virtuous because I was
hurt
that'd be that's part of it for sure
yeah and that's part of the if you're a
victim you're an infant and if you're a
infant victim then you're moral and to
be protected at all cost and anything
that threatens you as a predator and
there's nothing too terrible for a
predator right to meet out to a predator
which is another part of the underground
attraction for that because this is the
horror show of the oppressor oppressed
narrative once you identify the
oppressed and you identify them with
innocence you identify the oppressor
with predation or even worse parasitical
predation it's exactly what Hitler did
to the Jews 100% predatory parasite what
do you do with predatory parasites you
burn them to the ground no holds B no no
punishment is too extreme and then well
then you get oswit so brutal and then
you get to have all the Delights of
being the Ashwi owitz guard
and then the darkest part of your soul
has the chance to come out and
play is that what you think is going on
right now I was I was taken aback I did
not see it coming that uh there were Pro
Palestine marches on October 8th so
Israel's response yeah yeah yeah that's
definitely what's happening I mean it's
very straightforward it's
algorithmic oppressor oppressed how do
you know the oppressors they're
statistically over represented in
position of authority and obviously by
definition then they're oppressors well
who's most statistically over
represented in positions of authority
Jews that'ss like the doors open man so
why are they the canary and the coal
mine why in a way that is so bizarre
throughout history part of the reason
it's part of it is the reason I just
said so then you might say well why are
they more likely to be successful well
they're smarter that's part of it by a
lot you mean at a truly biological level
they just as a group they have a higher
IQ yeah and they have neurological
problems that go along with that like is
that controversial or are people course
it
is but do people debate the fact stupid
people debate
it well I'm serious like the the the the
int the IQ literature has something in
it to appall everyone deeply I I
mastered that literature in like
19934 with a student of mine who I still
work with brilliant student he got
bounced right out of the whole academic
world because of the response to his
work partly on IQ well we were looking
at neuropsychological functions
associated with the prefrontal cortex
specifically but it devolved into IQ
because everything to do with
abstraction devolves into IQ IQ is a
brutal literature and so and Jews you
know what ashkanazi Jews specifically
they have IQs that are probably 15
points higher than the typical than the
typical 15 points yeah so they're
radically over over represented so you
know at the middle that doesn't make
that much difference although it makes
some they're very likely to be at the
top of their class but if you go out to
like IQ 145 where the serious action
starts Jews are way over represented and
if you don't like that theory well how
about they have a giant conspiracy to
take over the world as a substitute
Theory so I don't care which of those
theories you like it's like you're GNA
both of them are like fire both of those
theories are fire and so but you're
stuck with one or the other so that's
life that's life you know and so what
what should happen is that people should
be bloody happy that there's smart Jews
around and the Jews should be very
careful not to take their intellectual
superiority as a marker of what would
you say excess intrinsic worth no I'm
not saying that they are more prone to
that than anyone else by the way but it
is a it is a Temptation for intelligent
people to identify with their
intelligence and to become prideful
right that's actually how in some ways
how God keeps the Eternal scales of
cosmic Justice balanced so imagine
you're born with an IQ of
145 well then you might think well
that's not very fair because what about
the poor guy who's born with an IQ of 85
and those are very different they're
very very very very different and and
you say well that's completely unfair
it's like fair enough but the guy with
the IQ of 145 is is prone to The
Temptations of the pride of the
intellect and that is Lucifer right like
that's the worst Temptation and so
Lucifer is the spirit of intellect gone
most dreadfully wrong and so sure you
can have an IQ of 145 but man you better
uh you better be on your knees in
gratitude that that gift was given to
you and you better not misuse it because
if that thing takes the upper hand you
are are in the hands of the worst
possible agent of Destruction and of
course like well no it's the intellect
that goes most dreadfully wrong that's
not the worst possible threat so
obviously that's the worst possible
threat and so you know it says in the
gospels that if you've been given a lot
you there'll be a lot demanded of you
and that goes for intelligent people
they better develop some
humility uh a a virtue that's sadly
lacking at the moment with our worship
of Pride let's say pride and Hedonism
Jesus brutal those two ideas in
particular you think grip people
today power pride and Hedonism yeah
that's a that's
a yeah absolutely well if you make your
sexual identity paramounts
like you've identified the eye with with
the impulse essentially with the whim
right because sex is a whim like
obviously
now does it rule well what what is it
that you are if sex
rules you're the wolf that's for sure
that's for sure and a wolf to yourself
too so you know when you see this
ambivalence on the left because on the
one hand anything goes in all forms of
sexuality are to be like celebrated
worshiped essentially because
celebration and worship are the same
thing yet sex is so dangerous especially
between like members of of a young
heterosexual pair that absolutely every
single bit of it has to be regulated
right to the last word it's like well
you Lous breeds tyranny that's why the
[ __ ] of Babylon is on the great Scarlet
beast of the state at the end of
time tell me exactly what that means
when you break it down well imagine that
when masculinity degenerates the state
pathologizes the patriarchy pathologizes
what happens to
females they pathologize too well where
do how do they pathologize in the
direction of disinhibited
sexuality
so 35% of internet traffic is
pornographic yeah but that's not driven
by women that's driven by men it's
driven by Bloody women too who parading
themselves absolutely it might be like
there's no shortage of electronic pimps
and death desate Engineers let's say but
that doesn't mean the women who engage
in that are Innocent by any stretch of
the imagination they're they're uh
they're doing the same thing with their
sexuality that that that the that people
granted the talent of intelligence to
with their with their with their gift
look at me it's
like no no wrong wrong those women
online displaying themselves they're
succubi they're not human you're a fool
if you think that's human you're a fool
at minimum it's a machine human
hybrid a woman doesn't appear in a
million places at the same time whatever
that is that's not a
woman yeah what do you make of the only
fans dynamic between men and women the
more I look at this the more I'm getting
freaked out there was a a woman named
you have to stop looking
looking at it truly through a research
lens but uh B deline I believe is her
name uh back in 2020 she sold 10 million
pounds worth of her bath
water oh that's perfect the hor of
Babylon has a cup full of liquid by the
way in Gold a gold cup full of liquid
that she offers the world really
absolutely absolutely absolutely look at
how wonderful this is it's actually what
does it say in the Book of Revelations
it's filled with the filth of her
Abominations God perfect so what is that
it's people wanting to consume that
thing they can't have that they have
idolized of course of course it's it
it's it's people wanting to consume the
thing that is denied to them because
they hid their light under a
bushel because they hid uh they hid who
they could become from themselves and
never pursued it sure and so they're not
attractive to themselves or anyone else
Abol holy [ __ ] okay so that's for sure
oh yes brutal brutal Brut You' got women
uh ascending to a position of Power with
that weird dynamic of
postmodernism uh they've been given a
gift of being able to persuade men
through their beauty to do what they
will to get the attention that they want
now as a mechanical hybrid they're able
to appear in tens of thousands hundreds
of thousand millions of
sit on the chests of men and take their
Essence from them and then men are
hiding their potential away from
themselves because they're punished for
but that then that gives them an excuse
for not doing it because they think well
I'm going to the young guys let's say
who decide to be useless you know some
of it's genuine response to not being
encouraged and to being punished some of
it is but some of it it's pretty
convenient it's like you don't have to
put your cross on your shoulder like no
one wants me to do that anyways it's
like well yeah that that's always been
the case and I mean in some ways you
know there's there's new impediments
to striding forward confidently but
there's always been
impediments you it's so interesting so I
uh I train anybody that will
listen uh that you need to have beliefs
in your life and since facts are
overwhelming it's not about recognizing
what's true it's about recognizing
what's useful is how I think of it uh so
you have a set of beliefs you have a set
of values so you have hierarchy what
matters relationship to the right end
that's correct a th% which is why I
always lead with you have to have a goal
and that goal needs to be honorable so
you've got well you see so the thing is
that's where your God
lies your God lies in well your God lies
in the ineffable of in the ineffable
extent of what you regard as useful so
imagine that useful tilts in a in a
direction the sum total of all that
would of all that would be most properly
useful the essence of that that's the
god that's the implicit God yeah I'm
realizing I have built from the ground
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designed to do all the things that
religion does it's really interesting
this to me is it's fascinating because
whenever you discover the same thing
from multiple different disciplines you
can be pretty sure you're converging on
the truth because everybody's just going
what actually works uh but the last
thing the last part of my cocktail is
rules so you need rules in your life
basically there need to be things that
you don't do um I'm that's good that's
good that's exactly right that's that's
where cons so you can imagine the spirit
of God in the Old Testament makes
himself manifest in two forms
calling and conscience and conscience is
that what you just described it's like
the guard rails it's like you're going
off the path you know so there's fences
and warnings on the conscience side but
it's the same thing and that it's the
dynamic between this is what happens in
the movie
Pinocchio so Pinocchio is called out
into the world his father is benevolent
a benevolent Creator that's jepetto he's
called out into the world to make
himself manifest to realize himself to
become real and there's two things that
attract him he wants to go out and learn
and have his Adventure that's the
calling and but that has to be allied
with the conscience and the reason for
that is the calling alone gets him in
trouble like first of all it entices him
to becoming a narcissistic Psychopathic
manipulative actor that's when he's on
stage right then it entices him into
lying to get away with things and to get
what he wants so that's another
extension that manipulation then it
entices him to become neurotic enough so
that he can take a permanent holiday
then he goes to Pleasure Island where he
can engage in Hedonism that's where the
slavers are right and so he needs that's
what that's what just the calling alone
you know we'll take them places that are
attractive but not appropriate you need
a conscience along for the ride and
that's Jiminy Cricket right and Jiminy
Cricket is what bugs
you exactly yes and so that's one of the
places you can find your destiny is in
what bothers you there's going to be an
array of things that make themselves
manifest to you as callings of your
conscience those are problems those are
your problems why is that your problem
it's like well can you stop thinking
about it
does it bug you all the time well hey
there you go that's your destiny right
where does this all go you've got Canada
has declined economically you guys are
now making 60% of what Americans are
making China we can do worse than that
with Jesus let's hope not uh China is
watching everything everybody does
they're Way Beyond
1984 2024 in the US is uh it's
terrifying the election does it actually
build up the Civil War I don't know yep
UK you've got conflict Russia Ukraine
you've got conflict
Israel yeah like where does this go that
depends on how many of us shoulder our
crosses and walk
uphill I I really mean that like we're
at that
point wake up figure out which side
you're on if you were a betting man what
odds do you give
um US Civil War what odds do you give
World War
II well
we we're already in World War
II so I'd give that 100% how far will it
go depends on how stiff necked we
are right so the Egyptian Tyrant is
visited by is it 10 plagues the last
plague is the destruction of the future
itself that's the death of the firstborn
so you know it depends on how hard we
have to be hit before we wake up and
there's no end to that you know I mean
God destroys the whole world in a
flood you know that never happened it's
like how about it's happening all the
time how about it's happened forever
it's happening now it will happen
forever how high does the water have to
rise till people learn
and what does it mean to learn well this
is why I'm a psychologist not a
politician or a theologian to whatever
degree I lay pretensions to that someone
concerned with spiritual matters let's
say psychological
matters Redemption is a matter of
individual determination so that's why I
operate at the big level of the
individual how far will we have to go
depends on how many sins you decide to
continue harboring
how are you connected how is that
decision connected to the destiny of the
world we all bear the world on our
shoulders how how can that be
true here's one way of thinking about
it how much better would the people
around you be if you were
better some
obviously what's the ultimate extent of
that
what if you were everything you could
be that's what you're called upon to be
you're called upon to be everything you
can be why not least because the try
getting through the world without doing
it then you'll end up in the position of
Cain you didn't offer your best you'll
be rejected by man woman and God and
yourself and then what then you're
bitter then you're fratricidal then
you're murderous then you're
genocidal then the flood comes or you
erect the Tower of
Babel it's always the same and now you
can see it like it's just right
there why because it's happening so fast
reading the book beyond
order there was a part in there that
struck me as this is going to be the new
Battleground that Jordan is gonna be
fighting on do you have good do you have
a sense of um what in the book is going
to trigger
people no I mean I didn't think that the
lobster example from the last book was
going to be so pillared I mean I thought
it was I thought it was really cool it's
like oh my God serotonin mediates
dominance in lobsters and people how
ancient how
remarkable but well that took off in all
sorts of directions you know and people
made fun of it it's like well you can
make fun of 350 million years of
evolutionary history if you
want you can put your social
constructionism up against 350 million
years of evolutionary history good luck
to
you I didn't think it was like and you
know the idea that I was trying to
insist that because lobsters live in
hierarchies that
hierarchies are the source of all moral
value let's you know that's I was trying
to insist that hierarchies are are so
inevitable that you see nervous systems
adapting to them across virtually every
level of
animal and why well because some things
are valuable and since and within any
given domain of value some valuable
things are more valuable than other
things and so you have a hierarchy
there's no avoiding it as long as you
need something as long as there's
scarcity a hierarchy is
inevitable yeah you know nobody cares
how many big pens you
have it's because they're not
scarce so you can't have status because
you have 200 of them but as soon as
there's scarcity there's a hierarchy and
there's always scarcity of one form or
another no matter how rich you get you
know if you're if you have $100 million
Picasso paintings are still
scarce yeah the uh the push back on the
The Lobster thing falls into two things
for me one I don't understand why people
look for a reason not to listen to
somebody which to me most of people
coming after you for that one just they
didn't want you to be right or to be
heard and so they went after something
that they thought they could mify and
and shut down on and then the I
understand that like I understand that I
it's obvious why people are looking for
a reason not to listen to someone it's
like how godamn many people can you
listen to there's n billion of them you
know so you have to not listen to almost
everyone and so you'll fall for any
excuse and sometimes that's not so good
you know because you have a bias that
prejudices you against a Viewpoint that
you actually need that's that's a
problem but the phenomenon itself like
you know you you mentioned sorry to
bring this up again but because it's
Germaine and and relevant someone said
something disparaging about me and they
were on your staff it's like well you
have lots of options for guests you're
looking for
no you're always looking for no because
you can only say yes to a very limited
number of things so that's another
reason we have to be very careful about
our prejudices
because we need them you know to I don't
mean Prejudice in the obvious in the
inappropriate social sense but Jesus we
have to shield oursel from an excess of
information we're very limited capacity
processors no question I I don't
understand though I don't understand
really and it's really killing me I
think I might might mean that literally
I don't understand why I'm so
controversial I can't figure that out
it's very distressing to
me you want me to take a stab at it sure
good metaphor all right so my gut
instinct in terms of why a certain type
of person uh responds negatively to
you
is when you think of a person as a blank
slate and that we all have this
Collective responsibility to make sure
that everybody ends up the same then you
saying some people are better at
something than others already is feels
judgmental and so it is oh yes for sure
and but when you have a collectivist
view and you believe that everyone
should have equal outcome which by the
way I think everybody yourself included
like if only right like that would be
amazing like if everybody could live
truly in Harmony and that didn't violate
principles of just the human animal
which is why I just remind people to
remember you're having a biological
experience but you say things that are
they violate a deeply compassionate
person's desire to take care of
everybody the sort of No Child Left
Behind type thing and when you insist on
in your own life like I'm only going to
say that which is true and I'm certainly
not going to let somebody force me to
say something I don't believe is true so
now with that and by the way all of that
and this is a key thing I think you have
to understand you're fighting with a
level of intensity that makes sense when
you realize your obsession with what
happened in the 20th century the gulg
archipelago what happened there uh
obviously Nazi Germany Mouse China like
the number of people that have been
killed in these essentially social
experiments so you have this deep
intense thing trying to get people to
understand like hierarchies are real
there's no escaping them not everybody
is as good as everybody else at
everything and by the way you have to
shoulder resp responsibility and that's
where people are like you just to them I
cannot and before I say what they think
I will reiterate you have changed my
life forever and for the better I will
forever be grateful to the things that
you continue to put out into the world
and I missed you horribly as a thought
leader during 2020 of all years to be on
a Jordan Peterson diet I was not happy
about that but what they think of is
that you're being mean for the sake of
being mean that you're not not trying to
help them see you cannot pretend reality
isn't reality in pretending that the
dragon is not there the dragon does not
go away the dragon grows more powerful
more likely to devour you and your
family and so yeah you get
smaller but they don't see that and so
that's why I'm like when I see people
attack you I'm like Jesus Christ how
many times does he have to say this is
about a balance between Order and Chaos
that you need both of these things that
you have to show the responsibility
because that is what real reality
demands that you're in you're nested in
an evolutionary context there are things
like hierarchies that will play out in
uh in the the body perception exactly
and so you may not want to feel bad when
you walk in the room and are worse at
something than everybody else but you're
going to you may not want to feel bad
when you're rejected but you're going to
you may not want to feel bad because
you're just lazing around your house and
not doing anything but you're going to
and you have peered into enough of human
nature to recognize hey there are just
certain truisms you've now given us 24
of the I forget how many were originally
in the core article 49 or whatever so 42
42 okay we've got 24 the answer to the
life the universe and everything right
is that all Hof's number so oh my God
that's perfect actually uh it it is this
incredible Thing Once you break free
from ideology and that's where again
this is one of the rules in Beyond order
not to fall prey to ideology this is
where I thought you were going in the
beginning with identity I thought you
were going to say identity has become
pathological because it has become it's
been simplified you talk about this in
Beyond order once you simplify something
and this is how an ideologue gets you
they simplify it they make it very
understandable becomes very clear who's
in and who's out you can reward and
punish based on that people are grabbing
these unnegotiable
s determined pieces of identity that
don't necessarily bring value to the
larger World which will create
dissonance in their own life because
they've got all this substructure
running telling tradeable
value you know what I mean it's like I'm
not saying there're like your race I
suppose is a
value but it's not a tradable value and
your gender and your sex the same thing
it's like I guess it's partly because
there's no
scarcity you know it's like we've got
enough White people being white doesn't
buy you
anything so and I I'm not saying that
with any pleasure that's what I think
people miss this is why I think people
come after you they don't recognize that
you're not saying it you're not
relishing in this you want people to be
happy and I'm always so confused Jordan
I don't know why you remain as
vulnerable and open as you are after the
time saying I was like what the [ __ ] you
sounded so kind open compassionate after
what four years of you know some
percentage of the world relentlessly
slandering you and obviously you get
people that cheer you on probably way
more people that cheer you on than don't
but you still remain vulnerable which is
[ __ ] incredible but the fact that
they don't recognize that you're trying
to help like I could get it if they said
hey look I disagree with J on this or
the other but maybe they do recognize is
that you know there's a lot of cynicism
about the help and I I can't understand
why you'd be cynical about help unless
you weren't that help weren't that
pleased about the idea of help you know
like all these deplorables that I'm
helping these angry young
men you know they don't deserve
help well I don't think that I don't
know anyone that doesn't deserve
help you know there's this idea in the
New Testament that you should your
enemies it's
like why would you do that
well it'd be better if they
weren't your
enemies and their unnecessary suffering
doesn't
help it's not
helpful it's not like you don't you know
anyone with any sense anyone who's human
is liable to take pleasure in vengeance
or even in but you know when people go
after the journalists that have gone
after me I don't take any pleasure in
that I don't sit back at my home and rub
my hands and think you
know you got what was coming to you I do
think sometimes you've got what was
coming to you but I think of that more
like watching someone in the road you
know they're in the road and they have
their back turned and a truck runs over
them it's like well you were in the road
and there was a truck
and so you got what was coming to you
because you were on the road and there
was a truck but I don't take any
pleasure in
it I don't see that it's
helpful what do you want people to get
out of Beyond order it it is
extraordinarily well thought through it
is very well laid out each sentence
Stacks like a brick upon the next I
wouldn't advise I don't know if you feel
differently but I wouldn't advise people
to read them out of order it's literally
this very careful case being made that
taken in totality is breathtaking you
read them in either order I think you
can read them in either order I tried
maybe maybe they're better read in order
but but um I think that if you read the
second one first then it would color
your vision of the first one I mean I
mean the rules the I think you're right
12 rules for life and Beyond order it
doesn't matter they're yin and yang well
you mean the rules themselves the rules
themselves just it it Stacks so well
otherwise it wouldn't be a book okay I
mean each the thing about writing a book
is that you're outside of time and space
in relationship with the book because
chapter 1 comes before chapter 12 but
not when you're writing it you can go
back and modify chapter 1 because of
chapter 12 I did try to tie them
together so that they make a book you
know and they one builds upon another
that's like that's the musical element
of it as well the re recurrent themes
I'm glad you liked it see I can't tell I
can't evaluate it um I'm hoping that it
it's of the same level of quality that
the first book was and I'm not making
any claims saying that about the level
of quality of the first book I'm just
that was as good as I could do and I
wrote the second one under unbelievable
duress yeah and so I can't tell if it's
you know whether that was
a curse or well certainly a curse and no
doubt about that I don't know what how
it impacted the book though it's hard to
say what do I want people to get out of
it
well I'm hoping that they find it useful
the same way they seem to have found the
first one I'm embarrass book actually
hurts me actually both of them hurt me I
would
say
because I'm ashamed you know of what's
happened to me what do you mean
and there books about life and my life
is I'm very hurt a very destroyed person
in many ways and so I
feel
unworthy Unworthy of
what you name it
I hope people find it useful you
know I hope it alleviates some
unnecessary
suffering that's the goal here's how I
read your books and everything that
you've put out into the
world the people that should write the
instruction manual are the people that
have struggled and in your suffering you
have been able to piece together useful
information which is the barometer by
which I judge a book's value for sure
the reason people flock to
your lectures they buy your book is you
have made in modern times the single
most coherent and useful instruction
manual for
Life period so the I fear that the
Brokenness that you feel the heartache
that you feel translates into something
usable that couldn't be written by
somebody that had
gone through what you've gone
through well I would like to believe
that was true you know there's a bit too
much self-justification in it for my
taste
but I thought the other day I'd probably
do this too
and I would I have to record an
announcement for this book because it's
coming out on Tuesday I thought the best
announcement would be just to thank
people for all of their kind attention
I'm very
fortunate in that
regard I get letters from people all the
time
that whether they open up their hearts
you know it's really
something but I am somewhat non-plus
let's
say for all this work I'm pretty
broken in general or just in this
moment don't
know I think in
general man well I will say this as
somebody whose life you have touched and
the thing I want you to recognize in me
as I imagine countless other people want
you to recognize in them more than warm
wishes is I have put to use the things
that you're teaching and they have made
my life better and they have made the
lives of those around me
better
and man it is really heartbreaking to
see you
um go through what you're going through
now and I I certainly get it um you know
and I don't know you well enough to
offer you any sort of um
familial consolation so I will just say
that what you do matters probably more
than you think it does certainly as much
as you think it does and I I had never
met you through 2020 and I started
reaching out to people that we both know
asking about you because I I believe
that the world needs the insights that
you uniquely have coming from your
background of Mythology and
understanding what is deeply ingrained
in the human psyche from an
evolutionarily shaped
perspective and that nobody is putting
it together the way that you're putting
it together and the fact that you've
been you know I mean hopefully it's it's
small in comparison to the people that
are supporting you but Jesus like I
don't I I know I would not put up with
the amount of [ __ ] that you've put up
with and the fact that I think the
individual is the only way to approach
any systemic problem like you just have
to deal with the individuals and then
from there it will Echo out into society
and so the fact that that's your
approach um I kept telling people we
need Jordan Peterson right now and I'm
so grateful you're back and I know this
book will
be very successful because I'm glad you
liked it I'm glad you liked it because
like I said I it's really hard for me to
evaluate it you know sometimes I well I
have every possible thought that you
could have about it you know sometimes I
read it and I think well that seemed to
have turned out pretty good and other
times I Think Jesus I've said this 50
times already and yeah I I'm all over
the place I can't I think that happens
it happens when you write a book you get
so because you know if when you read
someone else's book you can kind of tell
if the ideas are original at least in so
far as you're concerned well I can't
tell because I these are my ideas well
not all of them obviously but there
ideas I'm at least deeply familiar with
so I can't tell to what degree it's
original none of it and so I and it's
it's also I suppose I'm quite
apprehensive about its release in some
sense because I've set myself up an
impossible second act you know because
the first book was so insanely popular I
think it's 6 million copies now in in
all the languages it's been published in
so
um that's impossible that never happens
right it's it's certainly it's like
winning the lottery it's probably less
probable than winning the lottery in
fact I'm virtually certain that it's
less probable than winning the lottery
and to to imagine doing that twice is
well that's just it happens but it's
highly
improbable anyways it's going to all
come and then you know I'm in a
different space than I was when I
released this first book
so this is compared to all this is going
to be compared to all my electronic
avatars which are busily working out
there in the world I think there's more
of me outside of me now than there is
inside of me weirdly enough that's
another phenomenon I can't really get my
hand my my my uh mind around you know
the power of YouTube Jesus that's quite
the
technology when I put those first videos
up you know I was this was bothering me
this piece of legislation and for a
variety of reasons some of which we've
discussed I talked to my wife and my son
sort of casually I said well I'm going
to make these videos see what happens
and just
like famous last
words yes yeah man look it's resonated
it will continue to resonate you are you
have an extraordinary ability to
translate what people are feeling into
the actions they need to take to get out
of it it is not a mistake that you are a
very practiced clinical psychologist
that is able to scale what you were
doing one-on-one now to the many it's
extraordinary and I think it's really
had an impact on society my fantasy I
loveed being a clinician it was a great
job you know I really loved it there was
nothing better than intense
conversations about how to make things
better when both Partners in the
conversation are fully committed to that
it's such fun to produce incremental
Improvement sometimes more than
incremental you know collaboratively
there's nothing better than that I love
doing my lecture tour because it was
that on a large scale it was I talked to
Dave Rubin about that this week because
of course he was along on the tour and
it was such it was
so perfect to be talking to people about
making things better and to have
everyone at least in that moment fully
on board with the idea you couldn't you
couldn't ask for anything better than
that was great and to have the support
I've had from people it just stuns me
you know I think it's actually
traumatic to have that much support
that's interesting why
traumatic it's not easy to know what to
do
with you know the cheers of a million
people it's overwhelming it's
dangerous d ous because it can SE into
your identity or this is probably not
directly relevant but I don't know you
know I've thought a lot about
Hitler you know was it his arrogance or
his humility that led him to be the
Savior so-called of Germany he had
millions of people cheering for him how
could you not think you were
right how could you possibly think you
weren't
right and so there's danger in
that you know I don't think
I've I don't think I've unfairly
benefited from it I'm not a hedonistic
person my life style hasn't
changed um but still it's it's just
difficult to see I also
think these are things I don't know what
to think about you know that I'm talking
about if you're a movie star
people are your fans you know for your
roles but I'm not playing a
role or if I am it's me I'm no different
on in this conversation than I am
whenever I'm doing
anything you know I think well what is
it well I'm talking about all these
great clinical ideas it's the power of
the ideas it's the power of the communic
ations technology brought together and
that's probably sufficient explanation
but it's still strange and maybe I was
pretty old when this happened to me and
maybe that's makes it more difficult to
adapt
to but you know my videos have been
viewed something like if you count them
all up approximately with the ones that
people have cut it's like 600 million
times it's some insane number
it's incredible it's incredible man it
speaks to the impact so not that anybody
would have a hard time finding you but
if people want to track you in the book
and the progress and you getting more
involved now again uh where should they
do it well you can go to
jordanbpeterson.com and everything's
laid out there I have a list of
recommended books that's quite fun
there's about a 100 books there if you
read all those books well you'd be
educated not in everything but you know
you'd have an education so there you go
there's an education for anyone who
wants it there are 100 great books that
doesn't mean you know everything about
everything or even something about
everything but what you do know would be
useful and you would know it and lots of
people are reading those books I can
tell because I run it through Amazon uh
as a third party vendor so I get some
sense of how many book affiliate yeah
get some sense of how many
books are being published a month and or
bought a month it's a lot so that's fun
um the exercises that my partners and I
have developed
self-authoring and the personality test
understand myself are are you can find
them there and self-authoring helps
people write out an identity past
present and future and that seems to be
really useful for people because it's
better to have a plan you know what's
the idea if if you don't have your own
plan then you're the tool of someone
else's
plan so that's probably not good
especially if you don't know what their
plan is you have to explain what's
happening now with llms and how they're
finding the patterns and the language
because that that really made me look at
the biblical Corpus in a new way
absolutely well I think that we'll be
able to use the large large language
models where I'm I've tongue and Chek
established a new scientific discipline
with a former student of mine
uh Victor Swift who now works with me
and works on large language models which
we've been playing with a lot
computational
epistemology so he's found a set of 10
words that functionally replace the
notion of God in the English language
Corpus what are the 10 words I don't
know all 10 of them to tell you the
truth but you know you can imagine so
imagine God is the shared variance of
words such as good true beautiful just
merciful interesting right right so then
imagine that God died so that Center
word disappears but the spirit's
embedded in the cloud of Concepts well
that the cloud of Concepts around a
given concept is the archetype the
central sorry the central tendency of a
cloud of related Concepts is the
archetype yeah that makes I we can map
it we can map it now with the large
language wants yeah stunning that's
really important for people to
understand that that in
cracking at least mimicking human
intelligence in a way where we can't
distinguish the difference what you're
looking for are these interconnected
patterns well that's exactly that's what
the models do that's how they're trained
right is that they're trained on
conditional probability essentially
towards a goal so you can tell a word
let's say a non-word like uh nant n NT
nant that's a uh it's a nonword but it's
not it's less of a nonword than ZX QR
well why well because the
statistical relationship between the
letters in the word n are more akin to
English words than the statistical
relationships letter to letter in the
all consonant other non-con all
consonant non-word okay well the large
language models map the statistical
relationship not only between letters
but between words adjacent words but
then words two words away words three
words away two words two two words away
from two other words like the whole map
essentially right right and so but they
do that statistically they do that
mathematically so that really what that
means now is that if these models
are programmed
honestly trained honestly a very
difficult thing to manage then we can
use statistics to evaluate the structure
the implicit structure of meaning and
that's what literary critics have been
doing forever and you know Harris when
he argued with me he said well you know
you're just that's just your
interpretation which meant of the
biblical texts for example which turned
him instantly into a postmodernist right
there's an infinite number of
interpretations of any text and there's
no canonical order between them that's
the postmodernist claim the lack of meta
narrative let's say which means there's
no Union it means there's no
comprehensibility it means everything
fragments ultimately which is what they
wanted so they could dance in the runes
and pursue their own short-term
gratification right with power as their
as their
as their hypothetical guardian and guide
terrible terrible these interpretations
aren't
arbitrary they're not arbitrary they're
coded into the language that's what
makes the language comp without that
coding their language would not be
comprehensible now the postmodernists
even knew this to some degree because
they knew so sir he was he wasn't a
postmodernist but he was a precursor he
knew that the meaning of a word was
coded in its relationship to other words
now it's more complex because it's the
same for phrases and sentences and
paragraphs in the entire structure has
that what would you say that Network
that Network nature right but none of
that's arbitrary and and here's why it's
not arbitrary this is so cool it's it's
not arbitrary partly because it has to
be comprehensible to you and to me and
to everyone else so that's a terrible
constraint right it's like it has to be
a game everyone can play so that's a
really wicked constraint one of those
multi-dimensional constraints we were
talking talking about earlier but
there's more to it I had a vision of
this this this week about how this and
it's been developing for years this idea
so imagine there's like a central pillar
I envisioned it as a pillar of fire with
sort of God at the base of that and then
there are stacked discs of manifestation
material imaginal no material behavioral
imaginal semantic right so the material
world has an implicit structure that's
captured in imag
and so the world of images is going to
have the same networked structure as the
world of words that the llms have
modeled soon the llms will be able to
model the world of images and soon
they'll be able to lay them on top of
one another and that's what we do
because our semantic representation
system is isomorphic with the underlying
imaginal system and that's isomorphic
with the behavioral system and that's
isomorphic with the material system and
so the and then the Concord between
those is the truth of the claim right so
if it's true it's true semantically
imaginatively behaviorally and it's
reflective of the structure of the
material world that's a tight set of
constraints there's nothing arbitrary
about that there's no the meaning is
only in the text that's the ultimate
claim of the disembodied rational
prideful intellect it's all in the words
it's like no no no yeah that that to me
is the punchline about what you're
calling the counter enlightenment
of uh all of these patterns are present
in the biblical Corpus and that's how
you
know it's a reflect that's exactly right
it's a it's well what the hell else do
you think we've been doing for 4,000
years than trying to map this that's
what we've been trying to do with every
tool at our disposal now and you but you
pointed to a further
constraint the representation has to be
made manifest in a form accessible to
everyone right
right well is that going to be in the
form of complex scientific theories no
that's the domain of Specialists
obviously obviously obviously and
besides that even that specialized
knowledge you can't use that to orient
you in the world there's no reason to
assume that your you know typical
evolutionary biologist is any wiser you
know than your typical
plumber often far less at least the
plumber is constrained you know the
world of constraints that a plumber
operates in that's a pretty tangible
world you're wrestling with the essence
of material reality that's for sure we
who wrestle with pipes yes definitely
definitely well and plumbers you know I
would say there's it's hard to uh
imagine a profession that has
contributed more to the world than
plumbers right so all right this this
whole idea I find utterly profound um I
worry though we're in a super weird
moment you are you're a canary and a
coal mine for me in terms of freedom of
speech and the Overton window what
people are allowed to say
um the the authoritarian game only works
if there's nobody there to challenge the
ideas you refuse to go away but you're
proving hard to kill but they have
certainly tried most people are very
easy to kill in the world of ideas they
can shut down their career make it
impossible for them to make money which
then makes other people just way too
afraid to speak I get it you know the
hell that awaits being silent but most
people don't and honestly the Hell Comes
so slowly that most people are like well
this is just a little bit of Hell by
being silent a little bit more a little
bit more little bit more deferred hell
yes exactly and well deferred hell is
deferred hell is eternal hell that's not
good it not good I'd rather just have
the hell like now yes but you are very
very rare and so there's two things I
want to see if we can get to the other
side of using what the um counter
Enlightenment is going to teach us okay
so one I I spend a lot of my time
absolutely freaked out about the
authoritarianism that I see creeping in
as somebody who grew up in the 80s like
this is just raging yeah it it's
Insanity oh yeah and it scares me
because it's people telling me I can't
700 million ctvs in China Jesus man yeah
they have full gate recognition right
even if you're lock down knives in
people's houses
what that's really scary that that
freaks me on way
yeah right that's what makes them
tyrants right there'll be nothing that
you there'll be no autonomy that's the
like zero zero
autonomy because you know well and if if
you if you haven't done anything wrong
you you'll have nothing to worry about
it's like well good great find me
someone who hasn't done anything wrong
who has nothing to worry about yeah
right so how do I heard at one point you
were spending like $90,000 a month
fighting everything that's coming at you
um that's crazy so how do people who
just absolutely cannot do that how do
they push
back substitute ad substitute adventure
for
security okay security it's
like you're going to pursue security are
you you how's that going to work you're
you're going to die you're going to
encounter malevolence like you can you
can def the the
encounter to some degree although not
very successfully there's no security
and and then the thing is that's the
thing that's so interesting to
understand is you don't want security
you're not an infant that's not what
you're after you're actually after
Adventure so where do you find your
adventure aim
up tell the truth and Adventure will
come your way and then that's so much
better than in security that there's no
looking back it's so incredibly exciting
it's it's Uncharted Territory the thing
about the truth is that you don't know
what's going to happen when you utter it
you have to let go you know so if I
could come in here you know calculating
what I want from this interview figuring
out how it's going to increase my social
status or make me more money and I mean
if it does those things okay but that's
not the aim the aim is to come in here
and have a wrestling match and why
because I have faith in the
outcome so what's the faith the faith is
whatever happens to you when you tell
the truth is the best thing that could
happen no matter how it looks to
you that's a statement of faith now
there's an alternative statement which
is oh no no no I'll say something and
there'll be a consequence and I'll have
faith that that consequence is the
defining what would you you say defining
feature of that utterance I said
something I got in trouble therefore I
shouldn't have said it it's like well
what if you get in trouble but like
three weeks later everything's way
better for you Christ like it's not like
there's any shortage of things like that
in life that's what work is work is I'm
going to do this thing now that's
difficult so that something better will
happen in the future well truth is like
truth is the ultimate investment in that
matter definitely that's why truth is
what stores up treasure in heaven
that's what that means and so so how can
people how can people learn this try
telling the truth I I wrote a chapter
about this in one of my books that was
quite accessible it's like start by not
saying things you know to be a lie just
start with that play with it see what
happens see what happens walk me through
the morning when that person does that
I'll talk to young men right now uh they
say what they think is true they get
fired from their job they go then then
they probably bit off more than they
could chew right the Eternal sin of Adam
to bite off more than he could chew it's
like you know if you don't know what
you're doing and you're in a dangerous
place maybe you know start on your knees
humbly carefully you know don't go out
there and brandish your new truth and
make yourself into an idiot martyr so
you can tell yourself that you're the
Messiah you know with one
utterance that's not wise you have to be
as wise as serpents right that's the
idea this isn't a game you have to you
have to do it with your eyes open you
know and if you pay attention you'll see
your opportunity you'll see you'll see
it'll make itself manifest to you you'll
see where there's a choice point where
you'll be conversing with someone and
you could take the easy route out that
you usually take or you could dare right
then and there and there's an excitement
about that and then you'll try it and
you know other person you know maybe
you're kind of a cringing milksop sort
of person and and so you're you're being
intimidated by one of your friends who's
actually a bully that you hate and you
decide at that moment that you're
finally going to say at least a fraction
of what you've been thinking and you
know it takes him back and then actually
likes you better and is 10% less likely
to bully you now you might get punched
too you know that's well hey it's real
like it's that's right this this is this
this is real it's it's it's the ultimate
G game I suppose the ultimate game is
what's real but but it's not like
there's not consequences one of the the
other thing you have to understand and
this is a good thing for young men to
understand
is you're going to pay one way or
another there's no way out of that so
choose your method of payment that's
what you can do and and weirdly enough
if you choose the
proper God if you choose the proper
method of pay
the price you pay is is one you would
pay happily that's what that's why see
Abraham is called upon to sacrifice his
son for
example and in the service of God and he
says yes and then he doesn't have
to and that's right and it's the same we
know this even in our families a mother
who will sacrificer child to the world
let the child go Foster that child's
Independence offer the child to be
broken by the world full-heartedly we'll
get that child back right the child
won't leave it's so interesting cuz the
child leaves but not really right
because that's the child who wants to
maintain a relationship with the mother
for the rest of the child's life who
wants that mother as a grandmother and
who wants her around and who will return
as much as is appropriate but no more
and so everything you give away you'll
get back if you give it away in the
right spirit and we know that even on
the reciprocal front you know I I worked
with many many professors and and societ
scientists but let's say as a graduate
student I had a great graduate adviser
Robert Peele who's still alive and who I
still work with that case in
point I loved working in Bob's lab
partly because he was insanely generous
with his ideas he just give them away
like there were professors who like
they'd have an idea they'd shelter the
damn thing and like this is my idea and
someone's going to steal it it's like
first of all probably it's not your idea
second of all it's not that great anyway
so don't be so concerned there's not a
lot of people lining up to steal your
ideas and third it's not that easy to
steal ideas anyways so there's a fair
bit of arrogance and and lack of faith
in that but imagine we could even
imagine psychophysiologically what
happens to you if you give away your
ideas so let's say you know you're
blessed with a creative spirit and and
you're just giving your ideas away like
mad like you're a tree that's full of
fruit and you're just Distributing it
well everybody that you give an idea to
is thrilled about it and they reflect
that in their enthusiasm and that
enthusiasm is rewarding and that reward
creates a dopaminergic kick and that
dopaminergic kick reinforces the
dominance of the creative spirit and so
then you have more ideas right and so
that's a great example of how you get
back what you give away in Spades it's
by far the best strategy that's why
Christ says that you know if someone
asks you for well I don't remember this
phrase exactly but you know you give the
person who asks your coat you walk the
mile with them you give more than you're
called upon to give even to your enemies
why because there is no better strategy
than that by any stretch of the
imagination this is why there's such an
emphasis in the Old Testament on
Hospitality be welcome and in productive
generosity productive generosity what
what does that ensure it ensures your
own security weirdly enough because if
you give to a thousand people and then
you're in trouble you have a th people
people who are ready to help you know
maybe you could give to a 100,000 people
or a million people I mean how could you
possibly put anything in a more solid
Bank than in the Goodwill you generated
in the embodied imaginations of other
people that's the kingdom that's the
that's the Tre that's Treasures in
Heaven and they are an eternal form of
treasure in some sense not least because
that reputation can last in some cases
throughout the ages and then it's it's
part of the manifestation of that
underlying Spirit of creative generosity
that gives rise to the cosmos
itself thing I don't want to get lost in
all of that is that that is somebody who
has a hierarchy of values whether they
got it religiously or they just decided
it but the hierarchy of values is what I
would tell people to lean on in times of
trouble they can't have just decided it
if they decided it it's because
something moved within them right cuz we
aren't self-created you know you know
what I mean I mean we we have that
self-creative capacity to some degree
but we're the inheritors of one
tradition or another or mishmash of
traditions or we're socialized creatures
intensely socialized creatures so
there's all sorts of things that give
rise to impulses within us and so I
would say if someone technically
atheistic is generous and productive in
spirit then they're infused with the
word regardless of what the semantics
system sitting on top has to say about
it's like I don't believe that it's like
well it kind of looks like you do you
know if we're going to judge the tree by
its fruits and so Dawkins you know
Dawkins doesn't know how much of a
Christian he is God I want to sit you
two down at the same time I want to hear
him respond to that stat he's a he's a
terrifying guy you know I I
unfortunately the few times I have
talked to him I'm was still quite ill
and um you don't want to talk to Richard
Dawkins when you're not at your best and
so but I do believe that we are
scheduled to have a public discussion at
some point in the relatively near future
that would be amazing um going back to
young men there's an idea that you put
out there that I have talked about just
ad nauseum I'm so grateful to you for
this concept I hope you're right that in
the Bible the idea that the meek shall
inherit the earth makes no sense when
you think of Meek as weak but when you
think of Meek as somebody who
is a total badass but they keep their
sword sheathed Rogan's a good
example why what's meek about Rogan well
it's not that he's
weak it's
that he every guest he has he he tries
to learn from you know it's it it's a
kind
of there isn't anything more compelling
and powerful than a well-armed humility
and I've seen this in great people I've
met I have been privileged to meet many
great people and I've met the shells of
great people too but
the great people I've met are they're
striking in their humility striking it's
a core part of their character and
they're
not they're wrestling all the time when
they talk to someone doesn't matter who
it is
they're they're there with them
communicating you know one of the things
we learned as we moved Along on this
tour was I have security people who also
help me with Logistics and
uh we've had to be very careful about
who we gather around us because all the
people on the tour have
to treat everyone they come into contact
well with well all everyone especially
the people who come to my shows but in
restaurants in hotels like I don't want
to leave uh this is especially true if
you're in the public eye because okay if
if you're known and you offend someone
they'll forget it but if you're
well-known and you offend someone they
will never forget it it will burn itself
into their imagination and they will
tell absolutely everyone they they'll
feel deeply betrayed and and they have
been so so we ensure that everyone
around us treats everyone not well in
the manner that keeps reputation intact
but
well not so that reputation stays intact
but because it's the right thing to do
and that a form of that meekness you
know it's it that's that's what it's
referring to this is what I tell people
so your identity is going to drive your
behaviors ultimately your behaviors are
the only thing that matters so you're
going to begin by telling yourself
identity statements you're going to say
I'm the type of person that so for
instance I'm the type of person that
gets out of bed in 10 minutes or less
now I started telling myself that even
when it wasn't true because I needed to
start getting out of bed in 10 minutes
or less then right that's an aspiration
and then I I put more I'm the type of
person Monday through Friday if I'm
awake I'm either working or working out
right these become my identity um I am a
husband first right so even before being
an entrepreneur I'm a husband like and I
repeat these things over and over and
over some are aspirational and become
true over time and some are a
recognition of something that I'm
already doing that I want to reinforce
so all I'm trying to do is use basically
cognitive dissonance against people so
that they're not saying something to
themselves and other people cuz I always
encourage them to say it to other people
as well so they're not saying something
that they're not actually doing so now
you're trapping yourself into getting
out of bed in 10 minutes or less working
your ass off Monday through Friday
prioritizing in my case my wife things
like that but it's all like this really
rudimentary thing about behaviors just
say statements that you're going to
adhere to that make you act in the way
that you should be acting that's what a
behaviorist does in as a therapist is
that is to bring break things down to
the level of implementable behavior and
yeah you you group
behaviors like an ethical statement is
actually a grouping of
behaviors right an ethical statement is
a statement about a group of behaviors
or it's
empty
so I want to be a conscientious person
okay we have to decompose that into
implementable actions well you did there
to some degree I need to get out of bed
at 8:00 I need to get out of bed at in
10 minutes or less I need to have
breakfast with within the first half an
half hour that I've woken up I need to
be able to cook my breakfast I need to
be able to go get groceries because
otherwise I won't have any breakfast to
cook and so you decompose it you it is
decomposed to the level of implemental
behavior and that means bodily that's
the point where the abstraction meets
the world right through the actions of
the body and behaviors concentrate on
exactly that level rather than you know
the psychoanalytic types might be more
inclined to alter GL M statements that
would be say part of the self-narrative
those are abstractions because they're
collections of behaviors that that that
have an abstract description associated
with them and yes part one of the things
that you do do in therapy is you notice
where there's disjunctions between the
way people describe themselves and the
way they act of course you do that in
relationships all the time as well you
say to people well you said this is
especially true in intimate and familiar
relationships you said X but you do why
it's like there a there's a discordance
there and that makes you unpredictable
to me I don't like that it's probably
not that good for you either many many
arguments are like
that so getting back to now how people
can leverage this information in a
usable way in their life and I'll put it
in the context of what I see going on in
the culture War the thing that Drew me
in is I am not worried about myself I'm
worried about other people and my big
thing is so I've worked in the Inner
City a lot and so I've seen people that
have a an identity what I often refer to
as a frame of reference that leads them
so far astray because their parents will
tell them things like people don't want
somebody who looks like you to be
successful and so they don't even try to
be successful and so that belief about
who they are and how the world conceives
of them stops them from doing the
behaviors that would lead them to be
successful and so when I look at your
core concept which I love I think is so
brilliant that we've been talking to
kids about rights and we should be
talking to them about responsibility and
what you owe the world instead of what
the world owes you now I'll frame it a
little bit we have to balance those
right because I mean even technically
speaking your rights are my
responsibilities and vice versa and so
we can't only have half the dialogue
because the responsibility makes enables
the rights so you know it could easily
be that we could be in a situation where
we should be talking more about rights
but I don't believe that we are in that
situation at the moment and I I I mean I
think for me that's being borne
out by the fact that people have been
interested in what I've been saying
because one of the things I've noticed
time and time again is that whenever I
talk about the relationship between
responsibility and meaning the crowds
that I'm talking to go silent say look
you need a meaning to sustain you
through the vicissitudes of life okay
well try to debate that it's like is
life painful yes is it anxiety provoking
yes is it uncertain yes is it painful
Beyond bearing sometimes yes it's
difficult everyone agrees about that now
they might disagree about how difficult
but that doesn't matter that the Central
Point holds
okay what if you think that's all
pointless well that doesn't seem very
helpful okay so you need a sustaining
meaning well where do you find that well
you generally find it in responsibility
to yourself and other people and people
ask themselves those questions when when
I'm talking because I ask them to ask
themselves those questions and that's
the answer well what's meaningful well I
have a meaningful relationship with my
father I have a meaningful relationship
with my wife I have a meaningful
relationship with my pet you know
because I take care of that
pet um when I commit to something and
make sacrifices that sacrifice is
something I also talk about a lot in
both of the last two books you know if
something's valuable you'll make
sacrifices to attain it and that that
discovery of sacrifice I think that's
what separates human it's one of the
primary factors separating human beings
from
animals because we discovered that we
could let go of something we value in
the present and we would gain something
we value even more in the future we
acted that out dramatically in all sorts
of strange ways over thousands and
thousands of of years before it was
formalizable psychologically but it's a
massive Discovery I can forego
gratification in a particular
way and benefit in the future so I can
share the proceeds of my
hunt and I store up future food in the
form of
reputation and the favors I've owed I'm
owed Now by other people it's a massive
Discovery so
no question on that so when I start to
put this back in the context of you know
what's going on today so I I see you in
a certain way I see you as somebody who
um has had a longstanding desire to help
people make sense of the world and how
to move through it uh both as a public
intellectual and as obviously a
psychologist who's working with people
and so when I hear you talking about um
whether it's identity whether it's the
culture War whether it's you know the
balance the needed balance between Chaos
and Order um it's in trying to get
people to understand something so they
can use it in their life and and move
forward so taking that the the reason
that I think identity becomes so
important for people now is they the
generations coming up seem to be using
as a part of their identity a desire for
their rights to focus on that what I'm
owed um and if they were to flip it over
to the respon responsibilities that they
have now they're getting into an
identity statement that changes their
behavior set so profoundly that it gives
them the meaning and purpose that you
were talking about earlier am my also an
experiment you can run yourself one of
the tenants of cognitive behavioral
therapy is collaborative
empiricism so okay so so when you have a
client and and you say well you know
maybe your mood would be better if you
got up at 8:00 in the morning regularly
instead of 2 or 4 in the afternoon
irregularly and then you say well we
don't really know if that's true let's
try doing it getting up at two regularly
for a week and see what happens and then
maybe we'll try moving it back an hour
week by week but you can see how it goes
well so this is so I would say run the
experiment it's like is your life better
and you can even look at the way that
you evaluate your past when you upheld
your responsibilities did that improve
your quality of life even though it
might have been difficult and you know
generally people say yes to that we
derive a certain amount of satisfaction
from past accomplishments and generally
in proportion to their
difficulty and so if that's not true
fair enough and I mean there's
variation highly open people tend to
take more Delight in extraordinarily
creative Ventures and extroverted people
in being with other people conscientious
people are more Duty focused but doesn't
really matter it's
still it's still
responsibility so it's
just I I see the the the the so there's
this this presupposition let's say with
this this set of identities that we've
been taught to regard as categorical
that Goods should be distributed equally
according to those categories and that
to me because those categories aren't
functional you can't trade on them they
don't bear any relationship to outcomes
now you say well no that's just of
prejudice it's like
well no doubt there's some
Prejudice I mean no one in the right
mind would
would deny that but but that's there's
that doesn't mean there's no competence
the fact that there is some Prejudice
doesn't mean there is no competence in
the hierarchy
itself so I once got asked um speaking
at Google and American gentleman um
asked hey Tom do you think that it's
harder for me to be successful because
I'm black and I said almost certainly
true like even just from the perspective
of a school of fish right you from an
evolutionary standpoint we group up with
people that look like we look so if
you're a minority in any country then it
seems self-evident to me that it's going
to be more difficult but my question is
and now what so you've got options you
can sit in the unfairness of that and I
don't even think people would argue it
it is unfair or it's even
counterproductive right because
hypothetically we want to exploit all
people equally for our own benefit you
know to speak very coldly about it
obviously there's more to it than
that so my thing is um you talk very
profoundly about resentment in Beyond
order and that resonated with me really
well it's like look you're going to have
every reason to be resentful in your
life there are going to be a million
things that come at you but it doesn't
serve you doesn't serve you it doesn't
serve the community like that is the
fastest way for your I wish I had better
words for this I'm sure you do but for
your sort of energy to go dark for you
to step into the role of the adversary
which you define very clearly is
essentially the devil uh you liken
adversaries to mopes to the Coline
Shooters and that is seeing those as
archetypal roles you can play the hero
you can play the adversary if you're
going down the path of bitterness even
if you have every reason in the world to
be bitter
the thought of where that path leads you
should be so terrifying that you should
U-turn and say even though I have the
right even though everybody is going to
tell me it makes all the sense in the
world for you to be angry bitter
resentful it's going to take you
somewhere that will be so self-punishing
that there's just no point in heading in
that direction yeah unless you want
unless you want the Desolation and waste
that comes with it yeah I mean in that
chapter that's do not allow yourself to
become
arrogant deceitful or or resentful I
might have the order wrong there but
that's the chapter yeah it opens with a
discussion of why you would get
resentful it's like well cultures
arrayed against you so you're the target
of tyrannical forces that are beyond
your control they're arbitrary they
don't work in your interest at least not
entirely and the more eccentric you are
let's say the more tyranical culture
will be to you and so you're stuck with
that and then nature conspires to
destroy you constantly and is going to
do that with pain and anxiety and aging
and then there's the uncontrollability
and darkness of your own psyche and
everyone faces those now we Face the
positive elements of those too the
beneficience of culture the beauty of
nature the glory of the human Spirit
that's there as well you have reasons to
be deceitful resentful and
arrogant
but it's not a good game unless you want
to produce
hell I want to talk about that so you
were the one that got me to read the
gulg
archipelago um you're the one that got
me to and and this has profoundly
changed my life for the better you got
me to distrust myself which was such a
brilliant move so you said hey when you
think of Nazi Germany don't think of
yourself as the one hiding an Frank in
the addict think of yourself as a Nazi
guard because odds are that as much as
you want to think of yourself as the one
hiding and Frank the numbers just don't
bear it out and I thought whoa like even
if it is just a thought exercise to
recognize my potential for bringing hell
on Earth through silence through
cowardice like not necessarily that I'm
rushing out to do it but that I am
capable of weakness I am capable of
Silence at a critical juncture I'm
capable of resentment bitterness um well
silence at a critical juncture I mean
for sure that I mean you you told the
story at the beginning of our talk I
believe about oh no you didn't you told
me this story though about um or maybe
you did mention it about not having me
on your show because someone called me a
misogynist well that's a good example it
was like and it it's just kind of a
throwaway in some sense I mean it's not
like I hold it against you it's OB it's
obvious why that would happen but that's
actually what's terrifying about it
these things are easy you know when I I
worked very briefly visited very briefly
a number of times a Maximum Security
Prison in Edmonton Alberta with a very
eccentric psychologist and I met a man
there who had shot two policemen in Cold
Blood and um who who seemed by all
appearances when I met him to be of an
ordinary harmless guy you know um
certainly wasn't very physically
prepossessing and another one of the
criminals that I met had held down a
third a couple of weeks later and beat
his leg to a pulp with a lead pipe
because he was a snitch and I imagine
doing
that it was very shocking I laid that
out in the beginning of maps of meaning
because I was having aggressive impulses
at that time too and so I was curious
about these aggressive impulses and I
imagined doing it and I I mean I
actually imagin doing
it and then I thought I could do
that and then I thought it's even
possible under some conditions that I
might be able to enjoy
that and that was a terrible still a
terrible shock was a terrible shock then
it's no wonder people don't do this sort
of thing I mean this sort of imagination
but you know I took the idea that we
were supposed to learn something from
the horrors of the second world war
seriously never forget okay you can't
remember what you don't
understand so what are we supposed to
remember what are we remembering the
fact that all these people were murdered
no we're supposed to remember that that
was a revelation of the genocidal nature
of the human psyche that's partly why
I'm
so impressed let's say with the story of
Cain and Abel I I dealt with that in my
biblical lecture series and in my
writings you know the first two human
beings according to the book upon which
our culture is predicated For Better or
Worse the first two human beings
Brothers the adversary and the hero the
the archetypal adversary and the hero
put right at the beginning of that
amazing book it's the beginning of
History Cain's sacrifices are rejected
by God okay well how do we understand
that that's easy Once you know the key
you make sacrifices to make the future
better well what if that doesn't pay off
well you know think about that you know
what that's
like you Endeavor to do something and it
doesn't work you're not appreciated for
who you are you fail maybe you fail
despite your best
efforts well are you rejected by God
well it's as if you're rejected by
God does it make you
resentful does it make you bitter does
it make you want to pull down the
successful does it want to does it make
you want to pull down the successful out
of
spite does it make you want to pull down
the success F out of cosmic
spite the answer to that happens to be
yes you shake your fist at
God you say I'm going to harm Those whom
you
blessed and no wonder it's no
wonder you know it's a it's harsh
that the rewards of Life are
indiscriminately distributed
it's hard on
everyone but it doesn't help doesn't
help to become bitter and it's not like
I don't understand the Temptation I mean
I think part of the reason I get away
with being so bloody preachy is because
I'm talking to myself you know it's not
like I don't put myself in the boat of
the Damned and
lost very well said dangerous now I
listen to the whole times and and I see
this in this culture
War I see this resentment it colors the
definition of identity this attack on
meritocracy it's an attack on
Merit
itself you know that says nothing about
whether or not culture is tyrannical
yes but it's not only
tyrannical and it's important to get
those distinctions
correct so I want to then put a Koda on
that because I think you cover it so
well in your book and in the in rule
number one don't denigrate social
institutions or creative
accomplishment uh reading that title I
didn't realize what you meant until I
read the chapter and what that is
ultimately and correct me if I mate
anything but cultural institutions are
the order they're the stability and the
Cre what you're granted they're these
these these identities that are handed
to you ready made and thank God for that
marriage is
one it's like well you can critique
marriage fine
but what game are you going to play try
coming up with some try coming up with
one on your own maybe you can maybe
you're like Avant guard
Picasso maybe you are and maybe you have
a right to to make your own
Arrangement maybe you have the
psychological fortitude to craft your
own social institution but I bloody well
wouldn't count on it you're lucky that
there's such a thing as a job or better
yet a career you're lucky that there's
such a thing as friendship as
marriage all of these social
institutions you know and and
you and when you criticize them n you
put as one question of conscience in I
think it's in Twilight of the idols
whether you're a leader or whether
you're running away you're outside the
pack and moving in a different direction
in either case you know are you a Rebel
Rebel because you can't fit in or are
you a rebel because you could fit in but
you see a better way it's like people in
that category are not that common and
the first question of conscience should
be well which of those two are you it's
highly probable that you're the first
one and not the
second because that that would mean you
would be intensely
disciplined plus creative on that
Dimension maybe that is you and God then
we need you you know like you're an
avatar of the Savior under those
circumstances and maybe everyone has
some of that in
them that that's a a big question and I
think is one of the fundamental
questions that you address which is the
almost the need to have them both and so
you Give an example in the book in
Beyond order where you're you said let's
take a city and imagine a really rundown
dangerous crime-ridden area the people
that find themselves attracted to that
inevitably become the artists and they
move in and they think hey with a little
bit of effort this could be kind of cool
and then they move in they start to make
it cool then the first coffee shop pops
up and then the gentrifi start moving in
and then the chain stores start moving
in and then that place is no longer
suited to the artist and the artist must
move and I thought oh my God like in in
one description of a city and this like
when when people listen to you this is
the very thing I want them to understand
which is there is a nature to things and
instead of you know shaking your fist at
God you know y why is just like this is
to recognize how predictable this [ __ ]
is and to find a meaningful way right to
find your meaning to shoulder your
burden put your shoulders back like you
know climb your way up the the comp
competence hierarchy by getting so good
that you can't be ignored but
recognizing hey dear artist what a
beautiful contribution you make it is
necessary in a certain place at a
certain time but that will evolve and so
instead of being angry that the natural
course of things is that you've made
something beautiful which attracts
people such as the nature of beauty
recognize that you know there's like a
Johnny apple seed quality to that and to
Relish in that identity of I Am the
Artist I make things beautiful I attract
people to my beauty you know hopefully
in some Transcendent way I mean you talk
in Beyond order about the need for
beauty in your life and how chapter
seven yeah the very things that we
consider
um impossible to put a price tag on is
always art and so there is that thing
but like tying it all together from
Identity to meaning and purpose to the
the almost cruel nature of things that
description arrested me in the book
because I could feel the joy of the
artist when they discover something and
create something and also feel their
heartbreak as the place changed so much
you even say in the book where they can
no longer afford the rent and so there
there is a cruelty to you are the one
that gave birth to this thing and made
it what it is and then it gets to the
point where you can't afford it and you
have to move on and now to really tie
[ __ ] together and bring it back around
to you getting me to read the gulg
archipelago you realize even I have the
impulse to be like oh that's not fair
like how do we make sure that the
artists can stay there and you know
they've done so much to contribute and
then you realize the hammer is
essentially the only way
and that's where it all starts to get
scary for me and where I don't feel like
people are extrapolating and looking
into the future of uh I don't know if
you know Thomas soul but he has a great
quote which is the last 30 years have
been marked by take replacing what works
with what sounds good and to me that
feels like the fundamental flaw of today
which ties into your notion of Rights
versus uh
responsibility well the chapter on
artists so artists are high in trade
openness and open
people live in they live farther in
chaos they're good at pattern
recognition they tend to have high
verbal iq's the pattern recognition
manifests itself to some degree in their
artistic proclivity because like visual
art is a a patterning of the world an
investigative patterning of the world
and so they're the intuitives they see
they see what's coming they live on the
edge they live on the frontier well
there are Frontiers everywhere there's
Frontiers in every discipline there's
Frontiers in cities and you talked about
that like this the artist is someone who
can see possibility and so they'll take
a rundown place and beautify it that's
that's their
Niche and that it's it's an evolutionary
Niche technically speaking we have five
dimensions of Personality there's
variation in each of those Dimensions
because there's a niche for
every every what would you call every
place on the
distribution and you have to find your
place in the world according to your
temperament I mean you can change your
temperament to some degree although it's
not it's no it's no simple matter it's
pretty stable it's better to find the
place that you belong you know and open
people might be very annoyed that
they're not appreciated by more
conservative types
but the conservative types fill a
different Niche they're conscientious
and dutiful and so if something's
working you want conservatives to run
it because they're dutiful and efficient
and orderly by the book patriotic this
works let's uphold it let's make it work
efficiently let's not change it because
we might break it but it needs breaking
well that the debate that's the purpose
of free speech that's that that's my
sense of it you know there there's this
balance that has to be obtained between
tradition and transformation we have to
have respect for both of them and how do
we know when something needs to be
changed we don't know so we have to
argue about it and in order to argue
about it effectively we have to be able
to talk to each other across our
identity
boundaries and then we can decide well
should this be maintained or should this
be transformed check out my intense
conversation with Patrick bed David
about masculinity to truly be free you
have to be strong enough to control your
own life and many men today simply do
not qualify many of you have been told
the pursuit of power is disgusting you
shouldn't do it many of you don't even
have a clear definition of what it means