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Language: en
what social media and just the
democratization of everything has given
us is some insight into how rotten our
institutions were in the first place
there's a kind of woke ification of the
right is that is happening like it's
like professional wrestling nobody cares
that it's fake if I was caught doing
that I would lose my 100% of my audience
you have to hear what they have to say
no but but that's that's a
self-reinforcing sorry let me just
finish the point the smell of [ __ ]
is is is detectable far enough on that
you just don't have to spend time with
it you're not going to put New Media
back in in the tube right that's
toothpaste is out it's out there people
are going to have those conversations
whether you like that or not and we have
you know islamist stealth groups in
every Western Society I certainly in
America and the
UK we are living in an age now of
conspiracy people believe that the
people in power the experts the
institutions are lying to them and I
want to know does this create problems
that we should be worried about and if
it does why should people listen to the
two of you why are you guys
trustworthy well you want to start no
you go first okay um well I something
I'm quite worried about I think I think
we're getting profoundly misinformed by
the the tools we've built and
um I mean I think it's a it's a
multi-level problem on the one hand many
of us feel that what's social media and
just the democratization of everything
has given us some insight into how
rotten our institutions were in the
first place right so like we just
there's much more
transparency um you know the emperor has
no clothes in many cases but I think
it's in in part that's true but I think
what has also happened is that the
institutions have become corrupted by
the tools we have built so you know as
as uh my friend Barry Weiss pointed out
when she left the New York Times that
you Twitter had effectively become the
editorial board of the times when she
left and that's that's not simply a
matter of of shining sunlight onto the
Distortion of of the priorities of the
times it the tools effectively distorted
the priorities of the times um and in
you know for some period there almost
ruined it
um so I just think we have to
acknowledge that we have built a machine
for propagating hallucinations and and
distortions of of reality that that um
we don't know how to use and so yeah so
to come to your question about why
either of us are are better Brokers of
information I mean I think you have to
look at
the what we're specifically doing and
the incentives we have built in our you
know various platforms to to um motivate
us to to to work and I mean I've been
very careful
about this phenomenon of you of audience
capture which is you what happens to to
even people with with real integrity and
the best intentions they notice a signal
In Their audience they notice an
appetite for a certain message and
because they're incentivized to to feed
that that signal um they do it and they
just they they they wind up becoming
radicalized By Their audience and and
because this this may be less true true
of you given the kinds of topics you
touch but um maybe not
I've uh I'm really not political by
tendency I I just hate politics I just
view all of it as just ma this massive
opportunity cost and so whenever I touch
politics I'm tending to I'm I'm really
not aligned right or left in any kind of
U predictable way and so I want to
pissing off people on both sides I I
certainly piss off the far left and the
far right I would think equally at this
point and so
um on whenever I'm touching a a very
topical polarizing issue I'm pissing off
some considerable portion of the
audience and so I've just learned to
simply not care what the audience wants
and so I so I can honestly say that I'm
never
uh even feeling the the impulse to be
blown around by the the wind of
sentiment in my audience I mean it's
just it's just not what's happening I
just I find what I I think is
interesting and consequential and I talk
about it and you know since I deleted my
Twitter account I don't even you I
almost never even see what's coming back
at me so it's um you know for for better
or worse I I don't see what's coming
back at me and and so I'm I'm really not
I'm just calling it as I see it and um
you know I'm very happy to to built a
system that allows me to do
that okay so you you don't have the
deranging incentives that a lot of
people have Constantin um talk to me
about I is what we're going through
problematic and if so in what specific
way so I think Sam laid out yes it's a
problem but why exactly what what does
this derangement do to us as a culture
so much that we should do podcasts about
it may I also pick up on some of the
things that Sam mentioned as well um one
of the things I would say first and
foremost is I've never made the claim
that other people should listen to me uh
I and I I am not intent on making that
claim uh in the future the the only the
only area where I might invite people to
listen to me
is the invitation for critical thinking
I I think that's an area where I hope
that me saying that is helpful but apart
from that people should make up their
own
minds I think we're I think a lot of the
critiques that Sam has been making for
some time are exactly right about the
nature of Institutions first and then
the response from the media to them
because I think it's I don't know if
this is true but I suspect we have the
least corrupt institutions we've ever
had that's very possible I'm not saying
that is true I'm saying that's a
possibility and what has happened over
time is our insight into how corrupt
they are has improved our ability to
understand how corrupt they are so of
course they are corrupt but they may be
a lot less corrupt and and we can sort
of logically think about that from the
perspective of if power corrupts when
the New York Times literally had a
monopoly on all information I imagine
they use that power even more than they
have been in recent decades right so
what has happened is our faith in
institutions has
declined because we no longer willing to
tolerate the level of corruption that we
now know is there
the problem is that at the end of the
day we still have to at some point be
able to agree on what reality is and we
are now in a space where I think that
the fragmentation of our reality has
reached levels that are actually
unprecedented to the point where uh if
you think about words or names or
anything they no longer mean the same
thing to to to most people even more so
than in the past so the way I think
about it now is if you take a name Sam
Harris Donald Trump Constantine Kum
whoever the person who's hearing that
phrase has an experience of who that
person is that will be quite often
almost entirely different to what a
another person who looks just like them
sitting next to them has of that same
person so uh what Sam Harris is to
people depends on what Sam Harris
content they've encountered um what
constant and and and we can go down the
path
so how do you then have a conversation
about ideas about people about anything
I think the fragmentation of our reality
is is a really scary thing and then you
layer on top of that the other point
that Sam made which I think we're seeing
play out
and you know I I've always been very
hesitant to to believe in the idea that
audience capture is ubiquitous and
affecting everybody and I've late I have
realized over time is because I'm a very
highly disagreeable person person so
from day one I've been like I really
enjoy I don't I don't enjoy I am willing
to be unpopular with different people
because I care about the truth I care
about and I'm not saying that I have
better access to the truth than other
people I just care about pursuing it in
my own way um so on trigonometry over
time we have pissed off left and right
you know like Sam Sam you know during
the summer of BLM we were very clear
that what was happening was a problem
January the 6th we were were also clear
that was a problem but there were a lot
of people for whom it was either or
either BLM was a problem or janary the 6
was a problem you couldn't say that both
were a problem right uh and we lost I
call it pruning we prune our audience
all the time it's like well if you want
to be extreme this may not be the right
place for you and I'm much more
interested in you know having a million
subscribers on YouTube which is where
approximately we are now but pursuing
the truth as best Francis and I can
versus having 10 million subscribers and
and pandering to an audience that makes
me resent myself and them um but the
other thing we all know is human beings
do respond to incentiv so in the world
in which you know it's very clear to me
that the modern uh information ecosystem
is not optimizing for truth it's
optimizing for outrage it's optimizing
for extremism it's optimizing for uh
engagement which those two things
produce and I I I noticed this uh I mean
there's a kind of I'm trying to
introduce this concept into the culture
and I don't know if you'll agree with me
on this but there's a kind of woke
ification of the right is that is
happening Define that um well if you
think about what um defines wokeness in
terms of tactics and behavior it's uh
glorification of
victimhood uh hyp sensitivity and
attempts to restrict the speech of
others where conflicts with their
pre-existing ideas that is all happening
on the right and I I really experienced
this I wrote an article my substack that
I then made into a video called Tucker
Carlson and the woke right which was a
response to his trip to Russia where he
you know magically discovered that they
have shopping carts and you know
basically misled the American people
about the idea that food is cheaper in
Russia which is complete BS in relative
terms Russian people spend way more of
their household income on food and it's
not because they eat more it's because
it's way more
expensive and every single major
influencer that I've discuss this not
every single sorry I take that back most
people who you would see on your X feed
or on your YouTube that I've spoken to
about they don't give a [ __ ] they do not
care they just think taka Carlson is
this big name who has a huge audience
and that's what they care about now that
worries me tremendously because if we
are talking about making sense of things
making sense requires the ability to say
this has gone too far we have now
reached a stage where we're not talking
about the truth we are now pandering
playing to our audience compensating for
our own psychological
traumas in Tucker's case I think it's
his support for the war in Iraq means
that he's anti every American
intervention anywhere now um and that
means if we're not OP if if the
incentive structures are not there to
optimize for truth then we are going to
get whatever it is that we're optimizing
for which seems to be outrage and the
hottest take and the mechanism for
challenging that just doesn't seem to be
in place at all um
so I I think last time I was here we
spoke about the positive impact I
thought New Media was making and I think
in terms
of the democratization of information I
think that was necessary but I think I
was I was a little blind truthfully to
the long-term impact and you actually
made the point at the time as I recall
that I was a little blind to what the
flip side of that coin was going to be
so I think we we're in a very tumultuous
time and how our how our information
system adjusts to that will I think
determine where the world goes all right
one thing I find when people are
debating a point is that they're not
getting to the underlying assumptions
that drive their world view and
therefore my wife and I have a rule in
our marriage never argue about the Tea
the biggest argument we ever got into
was over a cup of tea which of course
was not actually about the cup of tea it
was about the underlying assumptions and
the tea just became the lightning rod
well she's British so she
serious no doubt no doubt uh so I hear
you guys both saying this is a problem I
hear we're even circling around the
truth and the truth if I were just
listening to this and this was all I
knew of the two of you I'd say the truth
matters but I don't yet understand why
and I feel like the culture war is
really a war where two people think they
have the truth but they have not agreed
upon how you determine what is true I'm
hyper sensitive and I've mentioned this
to you before I know you and Jordan
really derailed on how we Define truth
so instead of um necessarily right now
getting into how we Define what is true
I want to understand why the truth
matters and I'll say just for Simplicity
that the truth is the Bedrock upon which
you can build the rest of your life and
you won't have a hard time making
predictions uh so this stupid example
but it will Orient people is nobody
walks out of their second floor window
because we all agree foundationally the
gravity is real and you can just sort of
take it for granted um so my thing has
always been just to give truth of
proximity it's that which has predictive
power so I can predict that if I step
out my window I will fall and get hurt
it's predictive so if if we can all
agree on that definition
um is that why you guys think truth
matters in that it just gives you a
foundation and you can build upon or is
there some other
reason well the truth matters
because there is a reality uh
and you know if we're not tracking it to
some
pragmatic approximation in our lives
we're just going to bump into hard hard
objects you know I mean it's just on
every level from our health to our
figuring out uh you know what the
weather is going to be tomorrow I mean
just like we're in relationship to to A
system that is much bigger than
ourselves and if we're delusional about
cause and effect and you know any any
picture of of how things happen um
we're just going to be you know
perpetually victimized by our our
ignorance right so I mean so
representing having a map that fits the
territory to a first approximation has
been useful long before we could even
form the concepts that would allow us to
have a conversation about it I mean
epistemology is you know came online
before we we had the concept of
epistemology which is how we know things
so um I don't think anyone has to defend
the value of of tracking the truth uh I
think it's you know we're always just
approximating it and we're we're never
arriving at some final truth that uh no
longer admits of any other argument or
or you know possible counter evidence um
it's not that everything's always up for
grabs equally but uh it's usually a
matter
of of of a probabilistic sense of what's
true and some the probabilities tend to
get so high that we no longer are
disposed to reconsider things right so
if you're going to ask well you know
does D do we know anything about the
biological basis of inheritance and does
DNA have something to do with it well
you know
99.999% of biologists will say yes DNA
is the is the answer to that question
and it's not that we understand
everything about it but we understand
enough that that's not where the the new
Theory making is happening you in
biology um and the you know but the the
the problem and this is especially a
problem in the current context of social
media and alternative media you can
always find a crazy PhD or a PhD who's
who's semi crazy and has a you know he
just a hobby horse that he can't get off
of who will attest to anything no matter
how crazy right so you could see there's
there are enough people with with
graduate degrees on any topic that you
know the the cigarette industry could
find a bunch of phds to swear you know
in front of Congress that that cigarette
smoking is not addictive right so even
when they knew it was so you can since
you can always find those people it's
not enough to have found one guy who
will tell you that you know vaccines
cause autism and will swear and swear
and swear again even when he loses his
medical license um and it we
wise again given all the caveats about
bad incentives and the Poss ability of
of um you know any even the most
esteemed institutions becoming corrupt
were wise to
trust by default the consensus of
experts most of the time and and and
it's not it's not to say that they're
can't be a lone genius who proves the
experts wrong and overturns our Paradigm
that happens but but this is you know
the extraordinary claims require
extraordinary evidence juristic right I
me just if you're going to say that you
have a
a new version of physics and it allows
for time travel okay we you you you you
we all need to triage our attention and
our time and decide whether or not this
is worth you worth a podcast or worth
you know it's certainly worth you worth
being invited to a conference um often
the answer is no I mean usually the
answer is no under what
rubric well again it's it's there's no
algorithm for deciding what's real
because it's just you know this that
would be can I prop computationally
impossible well I mean it's just it's
just actually it's just functionally
impossible we we can't we can't in
advance know what we will what we will
later know I mean the know we just can't
produce knowledge that way right so it's
always iterative it's always a matter of
of of error correction in terms of what
you approach and respond to just in
terms of how you model like Ju Just just
how how knowledge grows it can't be a
matter if we had an algor ithm for
for
flawlessly producing each new increment
of knowledge we would have we would
essentially be able to model you know
the the the the total future of our of
our knowled it would just be it's it's
it's that system would bite its own tail
it's not computationally you know
possible to do that so we're we just
need we need error correction mechanisms
and and so at the grossest possible
level you mentioned someone like like
Tucker Carlson I mean the re the reason
why I I find Tucker's career at this
point so grotesque is that he's managed
to build an
audience that simply doesn't care when
he lies right when he's shown to be
lying I mean there there are different
ways to be uncan one way to be uncan is
to actually have pandered to an audience
in found an audience that wanted to be
pandered to in such a way that they
don't care that you're what you say is
no longer truth tracking no longer even
attempting to be truth tracking this is
a very trumpian phenomenon I mean Trump
is the the quintessence of this he's
found people who don't care if he
contradicts himself over the span of
three minutes right it's like because
he's just creating a mood of grievance
and pandering to the Grievances of his
audience and demonizing the outg group
and it's all theater it's all it's like
it's like professional wrestling nobody
cares that it's fake it's like the fact
that it's fake it's PR is priced in and
they just want spectacle and and so we
have uh even so-called news Gathering
creatures like Tucker who are just
creating a a spectacle and a and some
kind of political theater um and it's
got this very weird gloss of of like
super high integrity I'm just telling
you I you know I've been wrong before
and you know I'm just you know I just
I'm telling you the way I see it but
it's um
I mean in the clearest instance we know
we know from the from his private texts
that were leaked in the Dominion lawsuit
that he hated Trump all the while
couldn't wait for him to get out of our
politics thought he was a demonic force
and yet for years had been Shilling for
him for his his audience right so I me
you can call that audience capture you
can call that hypocrisy and L I mean
it's all those things but the crucial
thing is if I was caught doing that to
to I would lose my 100% of my audience
right and and anyone with a with a you
know a real reputation for
integrity for Their audience would
suffer a similar consequence you know if
but what we have are people who can be
caught lying or can be demonstrated to
be nuts I mean so in many cases someone
like Alex Jones fits that description
and yet there's still this massive
audience that wants there wants to hear
the next thing they they have to say and
that that's you know I don't know what
you call it but it's not a conversation
about reality and yet people are people
are re are using
it in the same uh vein as we use any
other product of Journalism as as though
it's providing some kind of guidance for
what's happening and what's likely to
happen so the the thing I want to hear
um and I guess my Bas assumption in
bringing the two of you on is that ideas
matter they will influence infuence the
individual life and one's ability to get
to human flourishing and every
individual when brought into a
collective means that a society either
can or can't get to human flourishing so
that's my confession about what my North
Star is yeah uh and when I hear people
argue like arguing about hey there's
this crazy trumpan phenomenon or there's
this crazy Tucker Carlson phenomenon is
arguing at the level of the tea to me
this is a conversation about what you
said previously which is the reason that
the truth should matter to you dear
listener is that you will constantly
injure Yourself by and now I'm using my
own words by not being able to predict
the outcome of your actions and so if
you are intaking all of your information
from somebody who is I've heard you
define a bullshitter previously somebody
who just does not care uh whether what
they're saying has any internal
consistency whatsoever it's just about
getting the right response out of Their
audience and if you do that you if you
take on that entertainment because it is
very entertaining if you agree with them
uh you will fail to achieve the things
in your life you want to achieve because
you will have built upon a foundation
that just is not predictive at all uh
and if that really is true re-anchoring
the conversation back to that seems to
me and you guys tell me if I'm being
naive but seems to me the only way out
of the death Loop that is us birthing an
age of pure conspiracy did you guys
watch the um Joe Rogan Terrence Howard
interview I saw a clip of it that that
uh people were hurling at me for it's
yes I hesitate to say it's entertainment
value but it uh it was
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there is absolutely no guarantee of any
kind it is entertaining and so if you
guys are right and there is a
problematic
breakdown uh when people
have lost sight of the fact that perhaps
they're because there's two paths
they're listening to an interview like
that because the establishment has lied
so many times that when somebody says
Hey listen to me I've been shut down
erroneously you need to hear these
things and they're going to help us uh
maybe that really is true or maybe it's
we've now just given up pursuing quote
unquote truth because we have no idea
how to find it nor do we know why we
care about it well may I add a couple of
pieces there first I don't know that
that's true I don't think we've lost
that I think there's a few things going
on first of
all anything that that involves a camera
and a microphone will naturally uh over
prioritize
Charisma so uh one of the things that
happens with any kind of mass
communication is we human this is why
truth matters because actually being
interested in what's true is the only
way I think that we are able to overcome
very faulty heuristics that human beings
have evolved with and I'm not saying
they're faulty for the ancestral
environment 50,000 years ago but they
are faulty in the modern world right and
our our cognitive biases will naturally
lead us away I think from truth because
that is a much harder path in the same
way that the reason it takes discipline
to go to the gym and work out and lose
weight is that it's much easier when
you're surrounded by abundance to just
shove food in your mouth and not do
anything right it's much more comforting
it's much easier to do so I think that
being interested in what's ultimately
true is the way that we can overcome our
inclination to believe things that
charismatic people tell us to believe
things that match what we already
believe to believe I mean that is
essentially to some extent the nature of
the scientific method right is testing
as reality as opposed to going well this
seems right or I believe this or
whatever so I think that ultimately the
reason I'm really interested in it is I
think that it's the only way to overcome
my own
predisposition to believe things about
the world that make me feel good that
are not that are not as you say
predictive and therefore useful um and
unless you operate in the world from
that perspective unless that's what
you're optimizing for your brain is
going to take you off on a loop and now
we live in a world where every whim of
yours is catered to and if your whim is
to be entertained if your whim is to
hear a you know conspiracy and I have to
say I don't know why and I'm actually
really interested in investigating and
finding out I do have I have found that
I think in the US those kind of uh ideas
about how the world is and who runs it
and all of that seem to have a way
broader appeal than they do in the UK
where I live I I don't know why that is
it could be the flip side of the
beautiful American idea that you know
America is a nation of Believers and I
don't mean necessarily religiously I
just mean if you know the idea that you
can tame a continent in a couple of
centuries and create this incredible
country which is the most powerful and
in my opinion the greatest Society in
history of the world that takes that's
an Act of Faith in and of itself uh and
maybe the tradeoff is that you know
Americans are very good at believing
lots of different things and this is one
of them so that's maybe why really being
interested in is what I'm tempted to
believe a accurate reflection of reality
is the antidote to going off the rails
on on that front uh and I think that's
why I am so interested in it it's really
to guard against my own uh cognitive
biases that I think we all have well let
me give you an example of just how
distorted I think our current moment is
because it's I find it surprising so you
take the the um the war in Gaza right
and we're now on the on the the tale of
all these college protests we've had
we've witnessed in our finest
institutions uh apparently an endless
number of people expressing Sympathy for
the Palestinians even sympathy for Hamas
and which is you know just officially a
genocidal death cult I mean described
itself as a genocidal death cult um and
you know they they they seem everything
to my eye morally seems upside down I
mean they can't they can't distinguish
the difference between people who use
human Shields versus people who are
deterred by the use of human Shields
they can't distinguish people who
intentionally burn families alive uh
from people who inadvertently you know
kill innocent people trying to kill the
people who burn families alive
intentionally so there's there's just so
many asymmetries here but um what's
amazing is you have the these protests
on college campuses effectively
silencing
even some of the most powerful people in
our society even just you know
celebrities who You' think you know
would would be totally unconcerned to
express their opinion they're being
silenced they you know they understand
that there's a difference between Hamas
and the and the IDF they won't say
anything in support of Israel because
it's just it's just too toxic in
Hollywood or in in um uh you know in in
among Fortune 500 corporations uh
there's there's there's so worried about
being uh boycotted and and you know and
public backlash especially on social
media um and yet on the other side there
are people signing you know the
celebrities are signing letters in
support of the Palestinians and they're
not at all concerned to be mistaken for
people who support Hamas or or even even
outright anti-semitic um so there's that
asymmetry of public opinion and yet
there was just yesterday a Harvard
Harris poll that revealed that 75% of
americ Americans are all in for Israel
they think Israel should do a just route
out Hamas tomorrow in Rafa right I mean
like everyone's been debating whether
the IDF should go into Rafa and this
this is absolutely tortured debate 75%
of Americans say go into Rafa and kill
Hamas right that's where public
sentiment actually is and yet we have
built a machine right where even the
most power powerful people in our
society are terrified of public of of of
of the 25%
you know they they're they're busily
offending e either by their silence or
by their their support for Hamas
effectively 75% of of America and they
don't even know it because everything is
so distorted the the whole information
landscape is so distorted based on WE
the capture of certain Elite
institutions by some very confused
people on the left and what we've done
on social media I mean everyone's just
looking at x thinking oh my God everyone
supports you know everyone thinks Israel
is guilty of genocide I should keep my
head down here I know I know Israel is
not guilty of genocide uh if the word
means anything but um this is just too
dangerous and yet in terms of the actual
public sentiment of the the people who
could buy the tickets to your next film
it's is completely reversed in in
reality and I think one of the reasons
that is there obviously lots of reasons
but one of the reasons is in the social
media
age the cognitive bias of oh my God I am
seeing horror on my
screen therefore this is wrong right
automatically is very hard to overcome
and it's very difficult to argue against
that when you're seeing look I'm a
father when you see babies being pulled
dead babies being pulled out of rubble
by their parents like there is no
there's no human being alive unless
they're a psychopath that doesn't go oh
my God this is awful
and this should stop immediately right
but does that really reflect the nature
of reality no but we also have a
significant portion of the population
that cannot think past their emotions uh
and yeah but but that notwithstanding
75% of Americans think they should go
inter I think your point is well taken I
wasn't disputing that at all and I think
your point about the fact that there are
different conversations happening in
different places I think is absolutely
right my point is I think one of the
reasons for that is 75% of Americans are
not sitting and looking at their phone
every day for eight hours watching
children being blown apart and whatever
um
so but but but those people who are
interested in in what's going on and are
looking into it they are not able to
think past I have seen one image yeah
dead babies yeah and dead babies are bad
I think we can all say that right I mean
it's
uncontroversial but being confronted
with the nature of war and thinking that
it's horrible I think is a useful thing
in terms of really being reluctant to
get into Wars unless it's absolutely
necessary on the other hand you have to
be able to see past your emotional
visceral reaction in some situations and
say why is this war happening what is
the objective of this war who is
responsible for this baby being pulled
out of rubble who is it is it the people
who are going in to kill terrorists or
is it the terrorists who are using the
baby as a human shield how do you run
that moral math how do you get everyone
to run the same moral math I don't think
you can I don't think every look this
sounds elitist and snobby I don't think
everyone's capable of it and we see
evidence of that every day a lot of
people like to operate solely by emoting
and we now have tools that encourage
them to do so well people can get better
at
consuming video I me we we know we're
bad at this and we should spell out why
people are bad at this so you see a
video of some guy being beaten senseless
by a crowd right and it just it starts
in the middle of the emergency he's
getting you know he's already down and
he's getting punched by and kicked by
five people
um he certainly looks like the victim
right but you have to understand that
you don't know what happened just before
the the clip started right you don't
know so so I've seen video like that
where I assumed okay this guy is this is
an atrocity this
guy's obviously the victim and yet I
find out that this guy just stabed
someone and he's being subdued by a
bunch of unarmed terrified people right
right so it was exactly backwards right
and so we know that even when when
things seem absolutely obvious uh based
on the clip it they could be exactly the
the opposite of what you think and so it
is with scenes from Gaza I mean it's
just I mean this was I remember Rogan at
one point was analyzing I forget who he
was talking to but he had some clip of
you know Five Guys being bombed in in
Gaza as though this were proof of war
crimes I these were obviously unarmed
you know young men and um who were just
walking they seem to be guilty of
nothing other than walking and they got
they got you hit
by you know looked like um a drone or um
it it was not clear but they were you
know killed
uh and yet we have no idea what happened
before that before that clip started
right so we we don't know that whether
they just planted an IED and it was
absolutely obvious that they were
combatants and it was totally valid
within the rules of War to Target them
um you just don't know right so like
that we have
to uh become
better consumers of our own emotional
reactivity in response to to
admittedly disturbing imagery whatever
the the actual accurate interpretation
do you have a method for that well it's
just to to continually price in my
uncertainty about those kinds of
variables you know and but the truth is
my me honestly My Method has been to
spend much less time on social media my
delete I deleted my Twitter account so
now when I look at x i it's just because
someone has driven me there like you
have to see this and then occasionally
I'll look at my feed and and so I have a
a a feed on X that's not following
anyone and on on which I have basically
clicked nothing apart from occasionally
getting sent a video that has brought me
there or or a post that's brought me
there and I am I am amazed at what a
digital sewer it is in terms of what
it's what it is trying I mean the
algorithm seems to just want me to be
terrified of the world and probably
racist in at least two directions right
it want it wants to show me black people
beating up white people and white people
beating up black people you know in
classrooms All Over America like how
much this happens who knows but or
security cam video of just somebody
being horribly murdered for whatever
reason and or just accident it's just
and then you know obviously there's a
you know the occasional cute cat video
but it's just a like we we have built
there there's white cats beating up
black cat
but I me we just we've built a we've
created a psychological experiment and
enrolled everybody yeah and it's like
it's it's it's analogous to watching
local news all the time I mean you know
I learned 30 years ago that or longer
that I didn't want to spend much time
watching local news because it's there's
always just some depressing car chase or
you know somebody was raped it's like I
don't need to know this it's not
actually going to change what I do and
and it's just this
chry regurgitation of human misery and
there's always at least you no matter
how small the locality maybe certainly
in any big city any big city is big
enough to always have some horror that
that that can be broadcast into your
brain about which you're going to do
absolutely nothing and it doesn't make
sense for you to even be cognizant of it
and yet it's there to depress you and
social media has become this on a global
stage and it's just I mean again it's
not that I want people to be oblivious
to what's happening in the world I mean
I do want to know I do I want to have a
map that fits the territory I want to
know what the rates of violent crime
actually are Etc but those
data uh are communicated very
differently and they often don't track
the the imagery that we we all get in
our heads just by looking at a at a
scroll right I mean you you see what
this is what's so distorting about these
videos I mean most most people on the
left certain anyone left of center in
America thinks very likely that we have
an epidemic of lethal police violence
against young black men right if you're
if you you know it's totally rational if
you're you know black parent to have the
talk with your young black son you if he
goes out there he's much more likely to
get killed by the cops than than than
his white friends and this is just you
know an intolerable Legacy of racism in
America
as far as these stats go you know the
best understanding of what of what the
Dynamics of actual police violence and
the thousand people every year
thereabouts who get killed by the cops
we know that's [ __ ] right it's just
not what's happening you you're you're
you're you're the likelihood that you're
going to get killed once once you come
into contact with the cops if you're
black is not higher than if you're white
right um but everyone has seen 12 videos
that makes it makes it seem like they're
these lunatic cops performing lynchings
you know and they haven't seen the
analogous the the analogous and in fact
more numerous cases where white people
have unarmed white people have been
killed by cops you know uh once again
disgracefully um in many cases and but
the actual stats are are just show you
how infrequent it is that an unarmed
person gets of any color gets killed by
the cops in America it's just not
happening very often I mean it's it's
around you know it's
maybe 40 people a year um a majority of
whom are not black and um you know of
the thousand and among even though among
those unarmed people who get killed by
cops most of them are not peacefully you
most of them are trying to kill the cops
they're wrestling with the cops they're
trying to get the gun out of the cops
hands um it's not like the cops are
routinely killing nonviolent people in
America and yet we have a kind of
pornography of racial grievance that is
is continually
advertising the a different story to us
and um again so given the Dynamics of
social
media that is always going to Prevail I
mean that's just like because of the
just the algorithmic incentive to spread
the the outrage other than some The
Pursuit Of Truth which I think the point
you were just making is actually a very
good example of where the genuine
Pursuit Of Truth and context you know in
Russia we there's a Russian saying
everything is understood in comparison
right and what you're talking about is a
very good example of where actually
finding out what the data is not only is
useful but it actually can change your
life especially if you're a young black
man because you are then less likely to
go into that police interaction with the
expectation that you will be killed
which means you're going to act
differently which means that you're
probably less likely to be killed as a
result right knowing that context
knowing that the what the statistics are
is going to inform you to behave in a
different way and this is what I was
going to make I'm actually really
reluctant to get involved in the Gaza
conversation Beyond some basic obvious
things just because I don't know enough
about it um but I think one of the uh
critical things in analyzing this
conversation like many others
is the the importance of History
and that's the context in which we
really human beings operate in the
history of human beings Thomas S who you
know I I pretty much worship at this
point he's written extensively about uh
the idea that the best way to understand
what people are likely to do in the
future is to look at what they've done
in the past and you can slice that a
hundred different ways if if you find
clay tablets from ancient Egypt they're
going to be likely basically discussing
the same things that that human being
discussed now you know my son doesn't
you know a mother complaining about her
son not being round and and all this
other human stuff so when when we
looking at the conflict in Gaza I only
bring it up because we've been talking
about it I've been trying to say to
people well if we are going to talk
about this seriously let's look at
previous situations in which conflicts
of this nature have broken out one for
one reason or another and how has that
happened people give the example of
pugan fujan I think Coleman Hughes
actually did a very good job with Joe
talking about this on his podcast but
beyond that whether it's the the the the
Japan at the end of World War II whether
it's what happened in Germany at the end
of World War II whether it's previous
situations in which uh a group of people
have attacked another people and then
lost that fight how does that normally
go how how how have we treated this in
history that gives you a context that is
very useful for
offsetting
the visceral experience you have when
you're confronted with the reality of
War which is horrific so in that sense
as you know my big concern about the
direction of the West is is that we are
becoming divorced from our history on so
many different ways and we are being
sold a bunch of lies about how we got
here and who we are and that's just one
tiny sliver of that one tiny sliver so
the fact that the overwhelming majority
of people in our societies and I include
to some extent myself on this are either
uneducated or miseducated about history
uh is a lot of the reason we are where
we are because that context gives you
the ability
to uh to be the guy who doesn't get
killed by the cops effectively right
that context that truth is how you know
that you need to act in a particular way
to to get the best possible outcome in
that situation um just why I'm just
always talking about the need to teach
kids history and contextualize this is
one of the things I personally was very
fortunate to get uh from what was
actually a reasonably good Soviet
education system and also my parents you
know all right there's a an idea that's
under the surface of all this that I
think Sam ties back to what you were
talking about that social media deranges
people because you're seeing things that
aren't necessarily true but cognitive
biases like recency bias I've seen a
bunch of these attacks and so my mental
model just begins to map to the things
that I've seen and so this must be true
also Maps what you're talking about
where people are steering by not what
gives them predictive validity of future
action but instead how do I make sense
of the way that I feel and if they're
making sense of oh I see this thing and
I don't like the way that it makes me
feel it must be wrong and here is the
post Hawk explanation of why the baby
being pulled from the rubble is wrong
not putting it into historical context
or context of what war is or anything
like that just I have a feeling this
feeling is not good therefore this is
bad and I need to give some
rationalization all right so you put
that in the social media blender and now
all of a sudden I I don't know which way
is up anymore and I just react to my
feelings the reason I think this
question is so important is when people
don't have a method by which they
determine the truth which is uh about
predictive validity you will not end up
running the same mathematics so
everyone needs to agree on what the
outcome is that we desire and then they
have to run the scientific method that
that to me is the only way that these
deranging problems of our current uh
moment of social media plus we haven't
even talked about AI but those two
things put together I think are going to
be maximum uh in terms of their impact
on derangement because it it gives
everybody an N of one frame of reference
and there have been a couple times where
you guys have said things that I have
seen the public light you both up for
because they just disagree so violently
and really what would be an example with
me um yeah God I may I may not have
noticed it because I really don't give a
[ __ ] but yeah so uh you were saying
something about the Israel Palestine
conflict and the reason that people
think that it's bad that war is bad and
that this has to stop but I think the
reality is there's actually two things
going on the moment you bring up Israel
Palestine if you're talking about
anything other than the following two
narratives you're not talking about the
reality of why why people respond the
way they respond number one is the norm
felstein stance which nobody just uh
addresses him headon he does not believe
Israel should exist as a state period
end of story every word he says after
that is predicated on Israel should not
exist as a state and if you're
approaching him anyway and people that
believe what he believes without simply
debating whether Israel has a right to
exist you're arguing about the Tea he's
never going to agree with you he's just
going to start yelling and shouting
because he has to square
of phds that we not invite to the
conference we actually just we actually
just had him on and we had a hour and a
half of look uh actually very useful uh
I think it's very useful this is why I I
we will continue to have some of these
people on the show because if these are
people to whom a lot of other people are
listening you have to hear what they
have to say but but that's that's a
self-reinforcing sorry let me just
finish the point you have to a hear what
they have to say and then see the method
that people have increasingly become
addicted to is the idea that the way to
get to the truth is to quot and quote
destroy someone with facts and logic in
a debate I believe quite often uh and
this is what we try to do on the show uh
the the way to do that is to have a
conversation and just go okay let's
let's hear what you have to say and
let's ask you some probing questions and
then people can see for themselves the
cognitive flaws in and biases and what
you're saying for example in our
conversation with him and Bassam YF who
are two of the big uh anti-israel Pro
Palestine uh Talking Heads uh it became
very clear that neither of them had ever
thought about how this might be
resolved that's a useful piece of
information to know when you're
listening to these people right uh
another thing you know with Norman for
example we spent the first 20 minutes
hearing his family story and he talked
about how you know his parents were
stalinists and he thought that was a bit
extreme so he's just a maoist you know
that's a helpful piece of information
wait was he being serious yeah that
wasn't tongue and cheek he's a maist
yeah okay I would love to ask followup
question that do do you do do I need to
then have a debate with Norman fleein to
destroy the idea of maoism or is it
sufficient for most people to go okay
that's the perspective from which she's
coming I would like to answer that
question directly so I uh you guys both
have the right to live your life however
you want according to my value system
and so I want you to thrive in ways as
you define it but I think it is
incredibly important that people that
have the ability to parse through things
not based on emotion but based on
predictive validity towards an agreed
upon outcome that is noble and honorable
and therefore this was something you um
brought up earlier and I wanted to
address which is I would request of
people that are like the two of you that
you address any problem that gains suff
ient momentum in culture and so it can't
be derived based on I think this person
is a good faith actor it just can't it
has to be derived around but this idea
is gaining sufficient cultural momentum
and therefore if I choose to step into
that that into the arena of helping
people make sense of the world I'm going
to address these ideas obviously that's
an ask that I have no right to make of
anybody but that's what I want from
people that I see as uniquely capable
now I have a frame of reference where I
look at human beings as flesh- based Ai
and I just want to point the Constantin
flesh based AI at a given problem and
see how he addresses it I want to point
the Sam flesh based AI at a given
problem and see how he handles it now
that's brought a ton of pain and
suffering into both of your lives I get
that I don't know why you keep saying
that it honestly yours Sam's it
certainly suffering on his
podcast so and also there there's a more
deranging thing and that thing is uh Sam
I have watched people on the left and
right come up with really contrite ways
to discredit you and so there are people
that um now just mify like one side is
just you're just obviously a racist you
don't like brown people and so the
they're never going to debate you on the
point of
jihadism they're just like he hates
brown people boom done you don't have to
listen to Sam he's totally [ __ ]
deranged and then on the other side it's
Trump derangements syr Co broken and
they don't have to listen to you and
those memes have gained so much momentum
that now it's a pretty small group of
people that can do what you guys can do
I'm going to say I mean hundred maybe
and like as we start whittling people
out of that pool I I get very uneasy as
someone who believes that this moment
actually does matter that we are in the
grips of ideas always through throughout
human history ideas rule the day and we
are now living with a deranging device
in our pockets that gives us velocity
and volume of information that is
absolutely impossible to parse all while
having destroyed religion which I really
want to talk to you about this uh I
think religion which I don't believe in
but I think religion is the only medium
through which memes can travel across
time and across all IQs from a literal
[ __ ] to a literal genius somehow
someway religion is the medium by which
the memes can propagate and so when
people cannot parse what is true they at
least previously could just check it
against Noble book these Noble books
have terrifying problems and so I would
love podcast toan to use your word I
would love it to be the solution but I'm
just saying that that is the thing n of
one frame of reference uh even if people
agree on what the facts are they do not
agree on what the facts mean they are
not aimed at the same thing and so when
we don't have
people that are capable of just walking
people through the arguments and I hate
to say it willing to face the social
consequences of doing so the the crazy
making just explodes and let me ask the
following to see if you guys agree with
that if there were a bill before
Congress and I know you can't vote here
but just bear with me uh that forced a
limitation on the amount of time that
people could spend on social media if
you guys believe it's a deranging
instrument one would think you'd be for
it would you guys be for it or is there
something that I think that's a wrong
way to affect the change right I just
just I mean that's a maybe a separate
conversation about just why you wouldn't
want government doing that sort of thing
but I me I want to address
the consentant intuitions here about how
you error correct because I'm sure there
there are examples where if you just
give someone enough rope they're going
to hang themselves right so you just
flip on the mic and have the
conversation uh but there are many more
examples of where you just you have
platformed someone and giving them
access to your audience and you even
even if you're doing the work of of
Journalism trying to to De debunk their
their errors in real
time C some people are so unscrupulous
and they're so fasil in their shtick I
mean this is all they do right this is
what they they're just the you know the
vaccine That vaccine causes autism guy
or they're the you know they're the
Holocaust never happened guy
and
uh it's just impossible to clean up the
mess fast enough it's just it's just
there's just as asymmetric Warfare here
Sam I don't I don't want I don't want to
derail your point I just want to
interject one thing that may be useful
for this conversation which is I think
the work of Journalism is not to have
everybody on and do that with them I
think you have to pick certain people
based on your perception first and
foremost the the North Star for us and
I'm not saying we have always succeeded
at all but the North Star for us is do I
think this person is operating in good
faith as in if I challenge an argument
that doesn't make sense will they
respond to that with an attempt to
engage with that argument or are they
going to line up for skate right Norman
felstein I have to give him credit
didn't do that I don't think he he
didn't answer many questions but it was
a genuine conversation so that's
different to getting someone like Alex
Jones on who's basically a character act
yeah but yeah but but carry on please I
there are many people so and this is the
problem with alternative Media or what I
often refer to as podcast aan or
substan where where I'm I'm quite happy
to be out here I'm you know I'm happy to
be just accountable to no one but myself
on my own podcast but the liability here
is that what you
you I mean there something like four
million podcasts now and and there just
this this the Wilderness of information
and the the kinds of messages that are
getting promoted I me the kinds of
people who wind up on Joe Rogan's
podcast to take the you know the most
popular podcast um I mean that the range
and quality and the range in in attitude
towards you know just the intellectual
honesty is so vast that um yeah I do
think it becomes irresponsible just to
to turn on the mic and talk to the guy
and you can't use the
justification that so many people have
prior to you have turned on just given
this guy the mic that now that's a now
you have a journalistic reason to have
him on because so many people are
talking about what finklestein is saying
about the war in Gaza I mean he is I
mean he just radiates cranking I mean
there's a reason why this is is is a
marginal figure in in you know
mainstream channels um and you know why
I think a lot of you know a lot of
actual Scholars on the topic probably
wouldn't debate him um but the the the
problem here is is so Insidious and it's
it's very hard it's very hard to
recognize I mean occasionally I'll do
like a postmortem on something that's
happened on someone else's podcast on my
own and um I think I did this for RFK Jr
going on Jordan Peterson's podcast so so
RFK Jr is a presidential candidate he
gets whatever it is like 20% of the vote
apparently nationally um so it seems
worth talking to but I would argue the
only reason why he's in that position in
the first place is so many people have
thought he's he should be talked to um
and uh and I decided not to have him on
my podcast for because I KN he is such a
confabulator he can make a mess that you
can't even detect as a mess until after
the the the conversation is over and so
he did this to Jordan I me he he tells
this story to Jordan about how Jake
Tapper of of um I think at that point
ABC News um was try was working with him
for three weeks to produce a documentary
on the the how big Pharma is just you
just utterly corrupt and at the LA the
at the last minute the documentary was
about to Air and Jake Tapper called him
just inconsolable saying listen I just I
this I've been in journalism a long time
this has never happened me but corporate
Spike the whole story and the Imp the
implication being which which he drew
out in the podcast is that big Pharma
got to you got to corporate right it's a
big farma completely controls the
situation the whole story is false Jake
Tapper has been been trying to debunk
this for years trying to get him to stop
talking about this for years and the
last time he talked about it he you know
Tapper wrote an article on you know
CNN's blog just detailing how this was a
just a tissue of Lies there's literally
no way for Jordan hearing that
story for the first time in a podcast to
know that there's anything a miss right
and he just absorbs it like oh man
that's just that's a Smoking Gun right
there wow and and how many of those are
going to come tumbling out of rfk's
mouth who knows right the guy is
confabulating I whether he's actually
consciously lying or he's just so
um he's he's just uncoupled from comes
back to the concept of [ __ ] I mean
the the [ __ ] or the reason why the
[ __ ] is so Insidious is that with a
liar the liar is actually tracking the
truth and he's trying to I mean it's
malicious he's trying to insert his lie
into the space provided so that you
don't detect it as a lie and he's he's
tracking he's tracking what's true in
the world he's tracking your
expectations of logical consistency the
[ __ ] is just talking and um I mean
so some people are have a
professional uh concession in in some
species of of Hal truth or utter
[ __ ] and alternative media is just
and and social media combined are
amplifying this stuff to the ends of the
Earth so now we have to talk
about still we have to talk about
whether vaccines cause autism and we
have a presidential candidate who's
who's banging on about this uh he also
thinks that maybe you know the HIV virus
doesn't cause AIDS right it's like these
and these are the kinds of things that
get spoken about to an audience to an
uneducated audience of tens of Millions
on Rogan's podcast and others and it's
just it's um it's dysfunctional and and
and it's
not what we used to have again there it
was a flawed system but we you we still
have within the Ivory Tower and within
certain journalistic organs we have a we
have a set of rules and editorial
standards where we're going to say all
right listen this is we have to fact
check this before this goes out we just
don't you know run with this live this
is we have to do enough journalistic due
diligence in advance of the conversation
we have to have noticed all the things
this person has gotten wrong before they
ever come to our microphone and we have
to hit them with that stuff so that so
that we can we can sort of pre-b punk a
lot of the [ __ ] that's going to come
out in in this conversation and if
you're not doing that I I do think it is
irresponsible on important issues right
it's it's good theater on unimportant
issues but when when things are
important you know when lives hang in
the balance when you're influencing an
electorate of you know who's going to be
president or whether they're going to
support the next war or stop the next
War I just think it's you know again
we're we're slow to realize the
influence of of many of our platforms
we're reaching millions of people no I
agree with you may I just on this I I
agree with you there is and actually the
prediction I would make is I think the
era of the
you know I agree with you podcast is
kind of I think that's that's coming to
an end I think the next step is going to
be people having disagreements and doing
that in good faith ideally um but the
question is I guess my question to you
Sam would be if you feel that that's
necessary you are in a perfect place to
do that job you're someone who's big
enough I just I mean I just I just pick
my battles I mean it's either the VIN
diagram for me is is it interesting and
important you know you sometimes I'll
just go with interesting I mean just you
all talk about physics and it's it's
just for fun but um on this kind of and
and the question is is it is it is it
too much of an opportunity cause is it
going to take me a month of my life to
prepare for this podcast or is it or is
it even possible to do adequately given
a person's capacity to just refer to
stuff that you know may not exist
you know and and that's and so and some
people are unscrupulous enough that I
have just SE I I have just seen in
advance
that there there there are enough
reasons just not to talk to the person
not to take them seriously that taking
them seriously is already the the
initial error that no high quality
debunking of their bullshit's going
overcome but but the reason we are where
we are is largely driven by technology
new me you're not going to put New Media
back in in the tube right that's
toothpaste is
it's out there people are going to have
those convers whether you like that or
not and I guess what I'm saying to you
is given that a lot of people take your
RFK example given that a lot of people
have hosted him on their shows and he
wants to come on your show I think you
have a so what I did is I just took a
half hour on my show detailing why I
wasn't having him on the show and I just
I told the story about Jordan's podcast
and a few other things yeah but but that
isn't the same as engaging with a real
human in in in a conversation in which
you could combine a good faith approach
which you generally always have I would
say you could say I'm going to approach
this in good faith and at the same time
in good faith I have noticed these
things that are fundamentally untrue or
misleading or whatever about things that
you have said and let's sit down for a
sufficient period of time in which we
can actually explore that because the
reason I'm saying this is I think that
the idea that someone is out there being
talked to in front of millions of people
and the solution to that is either to
ignore them or I'm not saying this is
how I think about it I'm just saying how
it might be perceived to snipe from the
sidelines is not going to fix that
problem and that problem is largely
technology driven anyway so I feel like
you in particular I am less qualified to
talk about many things particularly
scientific things but you in particular
have a unique opportunity where you can
actually say well look maybe it is going
to take me a month of my time but this
guy is polling at 20% with the American
public no one else is going to do this
I'm going to dedicate that time and
actually address this with the person
where they have a chance to actually
respond and then back and forth and then
if if the audience can see that they're
not answering your good faith good
mannered good-natured but fact seeking
questions that's going to be very
informative to a lot of people yeah
again I I pick my battles and it really
is just it's a triage situation I mean
there are lots of things to debate and
uh is that really true and some things
are undebatable I mean I just you know
I'm not going to debate someone who
thinks that um I mean I've got I've had
these debates in the past it's
like the history here is relevant I mean
there there's so many topics on which
I've basically said everything I have to
say and I just get I get dragged back to
the topic again because it's in the like
you know the connection between
you know Islamic terrorism and some
actual tenants within the real religion
of Islam right like so the the problem
of jihadism and islamism more generally
like that's i' I've had since October
7th I've had to spend some hours on my
podcast both talking about that solo and
having people on who disagree with me um
and you know i' happy I'd be very happy
never to speak about that stuff again uh
I've debated you know Christian
fundamentalists and I debate people
about you know lots of things that that
where I think they really there's not
much of a debate right if I you know
like now there's no there's no reason
for me to talk to a creationist about
Evolution anymore like I've done that
it's just can we come back to the
Islamic terrorism Point yeah because I
think actually that's where I'm sorry
that I'm taking over here but this I
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off because I think the work you have
done on that issue has been I can't
overestimate it's importance because
you're countering bad ideas that people
have out there where there's a complete
failure to analyze the reality and to
make appropriate comparisons for example
when I heard you talk about you know
what Hamas did on October 7th people
compare it to America's reaction to to
9/11 or whatever right except America
didn't drag women through the streets of
New York City you talked about this
right it's a very powerful way of
debunking something and this is the
point I'm making to you whether you like
it or not the idea is out there RFK is
out there and no matter how distasteful
you may find those things ignoring it
and even you doing a half an hour
podcast in it is not going to make the
same impact as you attacking that issue
directly with the person I appreciate
really truly that and you know how when
when we had the conversation our podcast
that ended up blowing up in your face
and whatever I hope you know that I I
think you do know that Francis and I
really were not involved in that didn't
enjoy that we're not happy about it and
frankly were quite disgusted by some of
the way that people reacted right so
this isn't me trying to put you back in
the firing line of all that crap but on
the on the other hand I am kind of
speaking to your potential greatness in
that area you are uniquely placed to
address some of these arguments and I
know that you don't necessarily always
want to go back into that shitfest but
on the other hand I I think the work you
you can do on some of those issues is
really important and I just as a fan
would invite you if you feel that
someone like RFK is polling at 20% and
is talking [ __ ] I really think forgive
me for saying this I think you have a
duty to take that on I really do well on
the specific point of his his
antivaccine stance I know he doesn't
want to answer to the name of being anti
vaccines but you know that's that's
definitely the the net result of what he
said says about this um I just think
it's
not I'm I'm just the wrong guy to do it
I could do the homework and do a
credible job of it but the the real
people to do it are you know
vaccinologists immunologist none of them
have an audience you do well no but no
but the way to do it is to set up is to
pair him with somebody and and and
moderate and I thought and there there
were efforts a foot to do that I'm not
quite sure with people more qualified
than than me to do it uh and to even do
it on a bigger platform like Rogan's I'm
not quite not quite sure why those ped
out out but I just think they're I don't
think it's you know I don't think it's
important to focus on RFK in particular
at the moment well so I'll I'll push
this one last thing and then we'll leave
it alone so uh like Constantin I believe
you uniquely are capable of this even if
you need an immunologist there with you
to debunk it partly because of your
credibility partly because you're one of
the only people I know that can think in
in literal straight lines and so it's
very easy to track what you're trying to
say I wish I could do that I think in
fractals I find it very hard to speak in
straight lines um so that would be huge
the this is why I was making an appeal
for have some barometer so I would beg
of you to make it popularity in culture
that we say hey Sam Harris we know he's
going to touch anything even if he has
to get somebody else to come on the show
to join him whatever uh but anything
that cracks a certain uh level going to
have on and I think part I uh I really
want you to do Outreach to the people
that are Center left and center right
that that have been given memes by which
to discredit you you won't get far right
far left I get that but I think that
there are people on either side that it
will really help the Zeitgeist if you
can win them over and part of why I
think the clip on trigonometry popped
off was was and please correct me if I'm
wrong but part of what you were saying
was uh when you're in the middle of a
political game and you know the other
side is playing that game you should use
those tactics as well and so if we need
the Slow Roll looking at it obviously
don't lie you were very clear about that
but that you can't just let an October
surprise land and just be like oh well
gee I guess we have to deal with it like
you have to understand that that was
gamesmanship and you have to be wise in
the way that you handle it and so it
feels that is the first time I'm like
ooh maybe and now I'm speaking as myself
but I think this is very much echoed by
other people where I'm like oh Sam
anybody else I wouldn't hold to the
standard but you I need to know that
you're the God so not fair to ask of you
but like you're the uh person who will
suffer the slings and arrows to not uh
do the violent Uprising you know all the
people that were just like I'm going to
let the dogs come bite me and I'm going
to be the one that is steadfast through
it has a belief system and just sticks
with it and there are shades of that
when you won't engage with RFK who is
clear so speaking for myself brother I
cannot bring myself to vote for somebody
who has clear signs of cognitive decline
and I really don't want to vote for
somebody that has clear signs of
narcissism and being a threat uh to not
doing a peaceful transfer power like
both of those just seem like non-starter
answers and so I have found myself more
and more drawn to RFK in the limited
amount that I have researched him
admittedly not a I'm trying to get him
on the show though as fast as I can
and I am doing that in part because
you're not people that I think will
really be able to do this softly are not
and so um yeah that I get that that's an
unreasonable ask to make but I think
that man the world would be in a better
place well what one thing I we should
observe here is I mean there's so many
asymmetries that are just not helpful
there's what we're suffering cult this
is the West in general is suffering this
but you know our our Elite institutions
are suffering this um it is possible to
weaponize the VA the high integrity
values of a culture against that culture
right so
if um you know in the west we prize
tolerance of diversity and and freedom
of thought and uh we welcome you know
refugees you know we we we understand
that luck has not been spread equally
over the surface of the Earth and we
find the the disparities in luck
intolerable so we want to be want to
welcome the unluckiest people in the
world who are suffering political
violence and oppression into our society
if they want to rebuild their lives here
like all of those defaults are noble we
don't want to get rid of them they they
they're they're the at the core of our
of our ethical integrity and our
political stability and etc etc all of
that can be weaponized against us by
cynical and even evil people right so
and it is in fact being done against us
by jihadists and islamists and to to a
great effect in Western Europe to a
lesser effect in America but it's still
just we have to we have to see that that
like this is our political and ethical
source code has a flaw in it it's easily
hacked you you can it just we know I
mean there's so many examples of this
but like you know Al Al Qaeda members
were trained to know that if they ever
were ever caught and put in prison they
should they could claim to be tortured
and Amnesty International would show up
and gum up the whole works and and all
and their you know Infidel enemies would
just torture themselves with their own
you know ethical Scruples trying to
figure out whether any of these guys had
been tortured and and I mean it's just
and they laughed about this right I mean
this was this was this
is you can extrapolate that to a hundred
different different cases that is that
is possible to weaponize
High ethical Integrity against those who
have the Integrity this is why you don't
want r no so I'm just I'm giving you
just various examples of this so like
the Rudy Giuliani moment was a moment of
of that where like our our sense is if
this is if this is re if this laptop is
real the New York Times has a
journalistic duty to get to the bottom
of it and any hesitation to do that is a
is a is a pathological sign of political
partisanship right like this is It's a
failure of Journalism you have to just
be you just Rudy Giuliani shows up with
this this awful laptop at the hour of
his choosing and you the New York Times
based on your journalistic integrity
just need to open your mouth and and eat
it right and I viewed that as an
instance of high integrity values being
weaponized against our our establishment
in a way that could have actually
decided the election based on what we
knew you know from the the prior
election what James comey's opening up
Hillary Clinton's emails did uh in real
time over those last 10 days and I and
and again I I admitted on your podcast I
thought it was a hard call I I I called
it a coin toss a moment several times
but that didn't make it into that clip
so I was genuinely conflicted over what
you know journalists should do
um uh and I didn't think Twitter should
have should have can you know froze in
the account of the New York Post that
ran with the story but there was
definitely an argument to slow walk that
knowing that Giuliani is this you know
cynical political operative who picked
his moment as an October surprise and
that the laptop was still going to be
there in 12 days right and and there was
probably not enough time to get there
still hasn't been enough time to really
get to the bottom of it because there
you nothing's coming out of that laptop
get all this and you've litigated this
many times and I think your points are
very clear but people still feel some
kind of way and this goes back to we're
living in conspiracy land and when
people get a whiff of you don't want to
talk to RFK they just start going
conspiracy land about why you don't want
to that there's no it's just it's a lack
there's a lack of credibility there's an
obviousness of certain errors there's a
lack of awareness of those errors on his
part and the part of the people who
support him it's like it's it's the same
I mean there's so there's so many topics
I'm not inclined to touch
because the the the smell of [ __ ] is
is is detectable far enough off that you
just don't have to spend time with it
and but I think the point Tom is making
and I making to you both and Tom tell me
if it's not the point you're making is
that you are in a position to smell that
[ __ ] where other people may be drawn
in by it and the world would benefit
from you sorry diving head first into
the [ __ ] to help other people see
that as [ __ ] and litigating that in
the public eye for other people to Lear
learn from I I think I guess what we're
getting at except it's amazing how rare
it is I mean I'm not saying that the
debates and debunkings don't matter but
it's just amazing how hard it is to
change people's minds once they've dug
in on on certain point like i' you know
I've debated you know so try to get a
9911 truther to admit that all of those
you know unconnected anomalies they
found in in in on that day don't add up
to a plausible Story I mean you can
spend hours and hours and hours and
hours and get absolutely nowhere but if
a 9/11 truth 16% of Americans claim to
believe that it was an inside job yeah
and 8% of Americans or 7% of Americans
think chocolate milk comes from Brown
caps 0% of UK Muslims think
homosexuality is is uh acceptable I
don't know if zero it was the last poll
I saw was Zero anyway we're getting
sidetracked the point I think is that if
a 911 truther was running on a platform
of 9/11 truthism and polling at 20%
there's no one in America I would rather
have than someone who's qualified to
have that conversation with a large
audience to deal with that and what I'm
saying is ultimately is kind of an
invitation begging stroke challenge to
you is to recognize that you in a unique
position and the unwillingness to dive
into that is I don't think it's helpful
genuinely I think we are at the point
where convincing Sam to do the interiew
convince me to do the interview I can't
convince no but but but this isn't a Sam
specific point we're only having this
conversation because we're here and I I
hope we're friends right what I'm saying
is there is a structural issue that is
not going away the the podcast Stan
thing the substan thing it's not going
away no one is going to shut it down
there's not going to be regulation that
stops IT we are past the point of no
return on that if we recognize that
there's a fragmentation of reality
happening and you have are in a position
I'm not talking about you let's say me
let's say you other people if we're in a
position to do anything possible to try
and reorientate those conversations
towards whatever that North Star is in
this case truth or an attempt to to
Garner what reality is
if people are being put in front of tens
of millions of people the answer cannot
be to Simply sit in our Ivory Towers and
to look down on that and to say oh
that's [ __ ] I I I'm not I just think
we we're going to have to ReDiscover
some of the same standards of Journalism
and intellectual honesty and integrity
that the old institutions imperfectly
embodied but who's we who's the we the
people out here on podcast and and on
subract newsletters but that's why I
keep saying this to you right he does
here's one thing that maybe I can short
circuit this just to keep it tight uh
Sam has made very clear not here today
but elsewhere that everybody that does a
podcast is making an editorial choice
he's explained us why he's not going to
do RFK and a million other ones we want
him to for reasons I think we've
articulated so uh I don't think we're
going to make progress there but if you
do Zoom back out and you say okay then
what is the path forward you're saying
that this is going to we will ReDiscover
journalistic Integrity you're I think
maybe skeptical that where the hell is
that going to happen I'm actually saying
a very similar thing I'm just saying
given that we are people who have large
audiences I think when we talk about we
have to discover we have to look Inward
and say well if this is out there I have
to find a way of dealing with it that is
appropriate to what I believe is the
right way of approaching it so to to me
I think part of that is you pick people
who are saying things that you're not
sure about and you engage with them
critically but from a good faith place
you pick carefully the people there are
certain people that with whom you can't
do that right he's just saying RFK is
one of the people you can't do that with
not with his desires I don't think it's
if if he were if it really seemed like
he could be president you then I would
you know I would probably dig in and and
do the work well maybe we're agreeing
more than I realized because I'm highly
disagreeable but I guess what I'm saying
is I think that all of us who are in
this space have a duty to not only talk
about the change we want to see in the
world but to actually be it I agree I
just think that there are so many
different types of podcasts that so for
instance uh Joe Rogan should just keep
being Joe Rogan so he's going to have
people come on I I was a gast that he
just like kept pushing cat Williams like
say more about what the the claims per
second were bordering on Alex Jones
levels where they were just things I was
so confused by now Maybe I'm Wrong about
all of them and cat is right but there
was no like push back and forth now see
now you're doing it but what I'm saying
is that's what Joe should do Joe should
have the kind of podcast that he wants
to have and it was actually really
instructive as a host to hear him just
like continue to open doors for cat to
like say more about something to expand
on a point it was utterly fascinating it
felt like I was watching an improv
comedian who knows the yes and and so he
cat would say something that to my
potentially 10 years just sounded crazy
and Joe was just like tell me more oh I
haven't heard that where does that go
like never once being like you know
space aliens didn't come on cat
spaceships I mean he didn't say that I'm
just saying that's how some of the
claims sounded to my again potentially
wildly uneducated ears but he just kept
opening door after door after door do
you think he should have Trump on this
podcast um yes yes I don't but I'm
saying that from from a I think that
would be a disaster I think if he did it
he he would have a responsibility to
actually do a lot of prep and and be
able to hold him to some kind of
journalistic accounting in that format
do you clock Joe Rogan as entertainment
or
education well both both and you know
he's Joe I I love Joe Joe's a friend and
I mean but what's happened to to his
podcast is it's become so big he's got
it's just it's a window onto the
attention of so many millions of people
and disproportionately young and and
misinformed on many you know crucial
points uh and there's a responsibility
that comes with that and he personally
always has the out of saying listen I'm
just a [ __ ] comic and I'm stoned half
the time you know this is just for fun
I'm just having this conversations and
you get to enjoy them uh and he pulls
the rip cord but there are certain
circumstan es
where it really matters that that there
be some guard rails and like it's like
having putting giving Trump a
4-Hour uh basically campaign commercial
in front of probably 40 million people
in the end uh and letting him just lie
and [ __ ] and and Free Will and
basically turn into a campaign event
that would be irresponsible it just
would be well from what I understand Joe
has said he doesn't want to have Donald
Trump on for that very reason so I think
I would happily have Donald Trump on
because we would challenge him right
okay but so so but so the moment that we
acknowledge that and I know Joe has has
said in the past that he has declined to
have Trump
on even Joe recognizes there that you
you have to be some caution is warranted
you can't it's not just that if you just
let someone talk long enough they're
going to hang themselves to your
audience you know your audience is is
always smart enough to to to to detect
lies and misinformation it's just not
true even the host who who's who's done
homework isn't always smart enough to do
that and if you do no homework you're
definitely not going to be so it's it's
I just think that it now we're just
talking about where the line is and is
it irresponsible to put Alex Jones on
and have him bloviate and and and and
find it uh funny um you know that's it
just could be a matter of taste I think
it's I think it was irresponsible when
he was out there telling people that you
know Sandy Hook hadn't happened and he
had a a lunatic cult behind him who was
actually targeting the the parents of of
those murdered kids I mean so that was
irresponsible and he got sued for it uh
I think rightly so uh but yeah I mean on
some level it's a matter of of just it's
a judgment call and you and you can't
actually draw a bright line between this
is obviously good and worth doing and
this is obviously an irresponsible way
of time yeah to me it's uh I the base
assumption driving all of my thinking is
that you are any one person is going to
be horrendously bad at deciding what is
true and what ought to be talked about
and so we should let whoever wants to
talk go out and talk and whatever method
they want and yes people are going to
have to discern what do I um what do I
turn to this person for and the only
reason that I was so interested in
having the conversation about you and RF
is I turn to you for those things right
uh I turn to Joe to bring me Fascinating
People and look make no mistake about it
I think Joe is is the best of us and I'm
utterly Blown Away by what he's able to
do because it's this utterly fascinating
blend of education and entertainment he
can switch back and forth now to get
somebody like him I have to accept that
sometimes a person that he has on that I
feel he should be more confrontational
more educational he just for whatever
reason that day woke up and and shows
entertainment great fair enough am I to
coach this guy from the sidelines um so
I want to see all ideas out in the
marketplace and I want to see s to me
like you're not acknowledging another
Dynamic here which is the kind of
reputational laundering of people in
these cont everything's a trade-off so
there is no final solution I think the
three of us have all quoted Thomas Soul
there are no Solutions only tradeoffs
and so if you make the decision we need
editorial content people have to be held
to a standard that's a certain trade-off
if you're like I want to make sure all
ideas get out there I think you and I
might wildly disagree about uh Brett
Weinstein and what happened during Co my
thing was I was getting so freaked out
by my trigger which is authoritarian top
down rule that's just I'm wired to have
a real [ __ ] problem with that and I
saw people trying to silence credible
voices now you may think this credible
voice has got this all [ __ ] wrong and
audience capture and he's derailing but
with Tom bil's value system my frame of
reference I'm like you can not [ __ ]
silence that person like I'm just hard
stop end of story just that is the the
one thing I will say you have to take
off the table that's my approach it
could be broken and I will certainly
again I have a North star and I'm
constantly running the scientific method
is my belief system and the way that I
move through the world leading us there
that that remains the question well just
one tiny point on that that's why I keep
trying to get us all to point the finger
at ourselves and go if I don't agree
with this particular way of doing things
how can I do this better you know
um ultimately that's how this gets
solved it's not going to get solved by
us criticizing other people they're not
going to change what they do because the
three of us had to go at them this not
how people work generally speaking right
so that's why I think if to the extent
that you have an ability to impact that
that's where that's where actually we
are able to be useful you know all right
I want to point these two High powerered
voices as something you guys brought up
earlier which is uh the death or the
suicide of the West however you want to
think about it um why if you believe
that the West is worthy of Defense what
is it about the West that makes it
worthy of
defense well it's many of the values
we've
we've mentioned here I mean
we what we have in the
West in and it's been fairly hard one I
mean we we have we have brushed back a
tendency to theoc Y in in a Christian
context I mean for for a th more than a
thousand years we we had this this just
Stark antagonism to
Scientific understanding and individual
rights and you know uh and we pride all
that loose
from I would argue completely false
religious certainty uh to the point
where now we have secular societies that
are open societies right where at least
in princip Le we're in a circumstance
where the best idea can win right where
we can talk about things in good faith
and we have the political freedom to do
that no one's getting thrown in prison
by the state for for um uh anything
they've said I mean this is especially
true in America and um all of that is a
is a machine of error correction and uh
it allows for the solution of all kinds
of coordination problems that only good
faith well-disposed
Cooperators can can achieve together and
so we so you know I don't think it's
it's an accident that democracy the
combination of democracy and capitalism
and political Freedom has been this
engine of wealth and creativity and we
should want to defend that because the
Alternatives all the alter all the
Alternatives that we know about suck
right I mean just where you have an
ideology that captures everything with
top- down control of you know individual
behavior and you try to make an economy
run on those rails or you try to make a
uh you know a political system conform
uh and you have all of these awful
experiments that we've seen you know you
know communism being Salient but you
know obviously fascism all these all
these variance that we that we are right
not to want and what we have coming you
know over the transom and up through the
floor is
a uh
a political movement and a religious uh
uh tital wave really of religious
conviction uh coming into Western
society which um is using
our values against us right our values
of Tolerance our values of openness like
our values of wanting to help and our
our values of self-criticism where we
have looked back on our history of
colonialism and racism and you know all
of our uh you know Tendencies to
xenophobia and selfishness and we have
we have grown sufficiently embarrassed
by that rightly so and critical of that
rightly so and not disposed to ever make
those mistakes again rightly so uh
and yeah and now we have genuine Bad
actors who know that whenever they s
merely use the term racism that settles
all arguments at least left of center in
our politics right you just call someone
a racist and you've won you've you
you've revealed them to be a racist
racist and you you've won the argument
um and we have you know islamist stealth
groups in every Western Society
certainly in America and the UK uh try
really trying to advance a a Theocratic
a agenda we have Qatar which is the
which is literally the largest funer of
universities in Britain and America now
more than any other country on Earth
Qatar which is governed by a theology
that come straight out of the Muslim
Brotherhood um all of this is Insidious
all of this is is in part what explains
the you know the Frank delusion of our
our you know ostensibly most educated
kids in the country when in the
immediate aftermath of October 7th
literally before Israel had done
anything in response this has nothing to
do with dead babies in Gaza this has to
do with with a kneejerk reaction against
Israel being the bad guys even when you
had over a thousand people you know
innocent for the most part peace
activists murdered in their bedrooms at
dawn by a genocidal death
cult our smartest kids who spending you
know $9,000 a year on on tuition
couldn't figure out who the bad guys
were on on October 7th we are the victim
of a kind of scop and it's it's our own
values that are being weaponized against
us how is the SC up running constant in
what is it that it partiz in our mind is
it just distance from the winning of all
these freedoms uh is it something else
well let me come back and just first
talk a little bit about the west and
what what I think makes it great I think
s did a great job of outlining a lot of
that I would just
maybe build a little bit on some of the
things you said and one of them is I
don't it is my experience that people in
the west fundamentally do not understand
even
remotely how unique what we have in the
west is particularly when it comes to
individual rights I mean we live in a
world in which if you accumulate wealth
as you have you're essentially that's
your wealth you're
protected uh this is not the case in
most of the rest of the world today
there is no private property at a high
level in Russia M horovsky was the
richest man in in Russia and the moment
he tried to say anything about he just
tried to give some money to an
opposition party that was against
Vladimir Putin he ceased being the
richest man in Russia almost immediately
and went to prison for 10 years to a p
penal colony eventually
exiled the same is true in China Jack
Mah billionaire criticizes banking
regulations not she banking regulations
disappears for a year not heard of not
not heard from came back not no longer
criticizing came back with a very
different opinion just magically and
there are other people like that ba ma I
can't remember the other guy's name
these are just examples of something
that is routine so the idea and this is
why our system works this this isn't
like oh it's nice that PE billionaires
can keep that that not that's not what
I'm saying what I'm saying is our system
works because the incentive structure
works the incentive structure in Russia
or in China is not to create create
things of value to other people and
therefore become rich as you have done
it is to serve the system to serve the
people above you to serve the people
above you in the hierarchy in their
corrupt needs if you do that you will
become rich in Russia or you will ret
retain your wealth in Russia and if you
fail to do that you will cease to be
rich in Russia so the reason our system
works is because we have created
incentive structures that take us
forward that that mean that talented
inventive creative driven passionate
smart people can profit from that Talent
can profit from their own hard work and
retain what they create um the same is
true uh on almost every level I mean our
technological progress this is a
self-evident thing that smart people
don't talk about but I feel like
sometimes it needs explaining the reason
the West is so technologically Superior
is not disconnected from its culture of
freedom of the individual I me this
should be obvious to people but for some
reason we don't talk about it nearly
enough the reason we are the most
technically Advanced Society in the in
the world and in the history of the
world is partly because we allow people
to pursue their Curious interest and to
profit from them if they create
something of value to other people um so
I think sometimes when we talk about
this idea of individual Freedom we talk
about them in a kind of moral sense like
oh it's good it's obviously good it's
obviously good for people to be free
well actually yes and also there are
some very practical consequences of that
freedom that are the reason we are where
we are so that's just a little bit of
why I think the West is unique and it's
worth protecting and you know we've used
the word experiment a lot talking about
communism and others we should be honest
de liberal democracy is an experiment
and a very recent one and a very recent
one so
uh like all new ideas it can go off the
rails very easily if the core of what
made it what it is is not maintained and
I think the reason that many of us have
been speaking up about this for some
time now and the reason I wrote my book
and and and and many other people have
been talking about this is I think we
are abandoning the
things that made us who we are and we're
abandoning some of the things which we
ultimately after centuries of struggle
and bloodshed and violence and
disagreement we actually were starting
to reach a place where we were
identifying some of the memes as you
like to call them that work in the type
of society that we want to create the
idea that people should be treated on
the content of their character was a
meme that was developed through a lot of
pain and a lot of suffering and a lot of
violence and a lot of discrimination and
a lot of awful treatment of in in that
particular case black people but if you
go to other parts of the West there
would have been other other ways of
conceptualizing that that still exist
right and we eventually came to the idea
that actually
that that ancient thing that is so hard
wide into us the tribalism the the you
know call it racism call it xenophobia
whatever it's just ingroup outgroup
right that thing that is hardwired into
us we have an intellectual idea that can
sit on top of that that can mitigate a
lot of
that that's incredible it's an
incredible I mean this idea is doesn't
exist in China the idea that people are
to be treated equally respect of the
race or ethnicity or religion and I
wrote a whole piece on my sub a while
ago about talking about this and I just
gave example after example of you know
in China we talk about racism all the
time in the UK for example right and I
just gave an example of a commercial in
China where a Chinese girl is is doing
the laundry uh and a black guy comes up
to her and he starts flirting with her
and she's like oh she shoves them into
the the washing machine puts this
product that's being advertised in and
guess what the pay off is he comes out
Chinese whoa right this is not a long
time ago and it explains to you why they
have a million Chinese weers in
concentration camps right the idea that
all ethnic groups are to be treated
equally does not exist in Russia not
even remotely and Russia is to a large
extent a multi-ethnic country it has
large Muslim populations it has large
ethnic minority populations the idea
that they are the same as everybody else
would seem absurd to anybody in most
parts of the world the idea that gay
people should be treated the same as
stray
people you would be laughed out of the
room people don't like hearing this in
the west because they can't process that
reality but it's like you know this
endlessly joked about queers for
Palestine thing they will throw you off
a [ __ ] roof that's what they're going
to do to you yeah right and from that
extreme you can work your way down most
of the rest of the world they're not
going to throw you off a roof but you're
not going to be treated equally
so we we struggled and we fall and we we
went through a lot of horror to get to
that place and the symptom of that
unraveling that I'm deeply troubled by
is that we are doing the exact opposite
Dei is the exact opposite of that idea
and it's embedded in every institution
now the idea that you can pick people
you can you can say this group is got
better outcomes than that group that
means and we need to treat these people
better than these other people right it
doesn't matter which way you play that
Dynamic it's irrelevant it doesn't
matter if you if if it's you put black
people at the top white people at the
bottom brown people at the top black
people it doesn't matter how you play
that game it always leads to bad
outcomes and the reason that
anti-Semitism now is becoming much more
prominent is is it's a natural
reflection of that world viw it's a
reflection of the worldview in which
successful people are are are successful
by virtue of privilege or corruption or
abuse of others and unsuccessful groups
or groups that don't do as well in
certain Fields uh are there because they
have been abused because they've been
taken advantage of once you implement
that every successful minority is going
to be in the fireing line whether that's
Jews whether that's uh asian-americans
whether that's uh African-Americans who
are first generation from Africa right
they're incredibly successful in America
you're going to see all these groups
being attacked in some way whether
that's in words or other ways because we
are breaking the thing that made us who
we
are okay so assuming that that gets
embedded in the mind on the back of
compassion essentially like look at
these people you can't leave them behind
something I've talked about on my
podcast before cuz my mom was in uh
transportation in a high school back
where I grew up there was this law pass
called mckenny vento where No Child Left
Behind and they would drive a single
school bus two hours one way to pick up
one kid and bring him back and I was
like that that is compassion turn
pathological like that's nonsensical um
how do we flip that idea because you're
definitely not going to get people to
buy into something that makes them feel
to live in the real world if we do not
real live in the real world we will not
survive and when I say survive I don't
mean that we're all going to die
tomorrow what I mean is there's a
difference between
Rome and and
Italy ancient Rome the great
civilization and Italy which lives on
the ruins I I don't mean this to to
insult my Italian friends there's a
difference between being a great
civilization and selling trinkets on the
ruins of that great civilization 2,000
years later it's a big [ __ ]
difference
and every American is going to feel that
and every person in the west is going to
feel that if we allow our culture to
deteriorate to that point so unless we
orientate towards truth which is the
balance between empathy and compassion
and pragmatism that's where that that
place
is we will not survive and that's why I
keep telling people these depressing
things because unless we get a grasp of
where we're heading I don't think we're
going to correct the course I really
don't well it's also matter of just
consistency I I think the the most
effective way of arguing against these
uh extreme positions is to show their
internal inconsistencies and and the
reductio ad absurdum so I mean so so on
the you take the the woke left they're
they're highly sensitized
toward around variables like racism and
homophobia and
um um political inequality between men
and women say right so so you know
feminist activist who is all in for
Palestine not especially disposed to to
think about who Hamas really is right
and yet can effortlessly see that she's
against a a white
supremacist Theocratic Nazi cult right
if if if these were white Christian
nationalist theocrat Nazis who thought
women should stay you know in in in the
house as breeders and and you know just
just
baking and having kids and that uh and
they express nothing but xenophobia and
anti-Semitism and uh white supremacy
that's all instantly recognizable as
evil and yet you can connect all of
those dots for Hamas or any other
jihadist or even islamist organization
and that's exactly who they are exactly
who the mother Muslim Brotherhood is
right um it's exactly some of these some
of these groups that actually funding
middle e studies departments at
Georgetown and and you know Princeton
that's that's who who these guys are
right so um the left should be able to
see the internal inconsistency they
should be able they should be able to
see that if they're for women's rights
they're against 98% of girls in Somalia
getting clitorectomies right or uh you
women in Iran deciding to take off the
veil and being thrown into prison and
tortured and raped and even killed for
having darare to show their hair right
and the and the and the most obscene
distortions of of of moral intuition
here are can be seen in moments like
when Linda sarur this hijabi theocrat
bully gets picked as one of the women to
Anchor the women's March right she's
she's wearing you know Shepherd Ferry
does a you know hijabi poster and the
and the and the and the Very symbol of
of of the of especially essentially
gender apartheid throughout the Muslim
world is co-opted as a symbol of women's
empowerment in the west right this is I
mean it's a it's just a complete
nullification of of moral intelligence
and the and the very real solidarity
that that should that should be obvious
between women who care about their
rights in in the in the west and the
women they ostensibly care about in the
Muslim world who being thrown in prison
for for taking the hijab off it's just
it's just the confusion is so obvious
it's so right on the surface eventually
people will be embarrassed by this I
mean in so far as it's CA culture is
incapable of improving itself and we
know it is there's going to come a time
when with all these you know girls from
barard and and Columbia and and uh
brandise and all these liberal
institutions are going to be embarrassed
to to to look back at how
they just
got confused about the the the the the
veilance of religious symbols who their
friends were who their enemies were at
moment it's just it is as upside down as
anything awful in our racist past and
and and it has the additional variable
of being masochistic I mean we're is it
like at least with old school racist
outgroup hatred it was you know your
your attack the victims are are are
others
but what what's happened in the west I
mean to take another example from the UK
I mean like the rum Scandal right where
you have literally you know over a
thousand English girls you know some of
whom are 12 years old getting raped by
by um uh mostly Pakistani men and no one
is doing anything about it because
everyone's afraid to be C called racist
so literally the the parents would come
into the police station and say my was
just rap gang gang raped by a bunch of
taxi drivers and they would it would it
wouldn't be prosecuted because the
police department was so afraid of being
called racist the Optics of the problem
was so intolerable that everyone was
allergic to it it's this kind of
masochism that is is going to undo the
west and it's going to undo the I mean
I've been saying this for 20 years and I
think it you know hopefully this will
never come true but we're seeing the
signs of it coming true in so far as the
left can't get its head screwed on
straight around this specific variable
of islamism and
jihadism it will potentiate right-wing
populism and a thirst for right-wing
authoritarianism across the west and we
will have we will have Fascist
governments because as you know David
from one said if if liberals won't
police borders fascists will and and
that's that's where we're headed unless
we we uh we talk some sense to ourselves
on that topic what were we going to say
well I was just going to say I mean I
completely agree ree with that because
look ultimately I you know I I I have a
piece coming out shortly about this I
spent a few weeks with Jordan on tour um
and I never really I honestly understood
why he talked about Order and Chaos so
much and ultimately a few things I've
seen and experienced have made me if you
ratchet up the chaos enough people will
crave order so much they're I'm going to
give a [ __ ] who's giving it to them and
this is why the I think the only way
culturally to solve this problem is you
have to make uh the core Western ideals
cool again they have to be cool it has
to be uncool to to be one of these woke
people with blue hair it has to be
uncool uh to uh to have the idea that
different groups should be treated
differently it has to be like why are
you being like that do you know what I
mean that's what we have to do otherwise
it's going to be the option that Sam
described I mean what is happening uh
you know I often get I get very
irritated when people say things like
well we're giving all this money to
Ukraine but we can't even police our own
border what why
does just like the homelessness in La
that you drive past here every day just
like all sorts of other social problems
this isn't a money problem it's an
ideology problem right and until we get
that ideology out of power and replace
it with one that is more sensible we are
going to ratchet up the chaos more and
more and then the forces of order are
going to come
back uh it's that's that's the stories
all this time we are constantly in the
tension and as you I think you
articulated last time I was here when we
interviewed you that balance is
necessary between all things there is a
balance to be struck between you know
this is why conservatives uh often think
I'm a conservative and they get really
disappointed when they find I'm not and
people on the left accuse me of being a
conservative even though I'm not and
it's not because I love order and I hate
chaos I'm actually very open to a bit of
chaos you know I used to be a standup I
like making offensive jokes uh I'm Pro
legalizing some drugs you know on all
sorts of issues I like opening up the
the the cultural space but if you have a
lack of order and an abundance of chaos
that's where we're heading and that's
why I'm going there's too much chaos
going on uh we got to be careful not
only because there's a balance that we
need but also if you mess with this you
do not know the forces that you're going
to unleash you do not know the forces
you're going to unleash because what's
happening with borders in the
UK that's
crazy what's happening in this country
with the southern border that's crazy
you you can't have that and expect
people to just sit on their hands it's
not going to happen it's not going
happen and the truth is it's not
actually intention in intention with
real compassion right you can have the
most compassionate immigration policy
you want you still want to imple
implement it in an orderly way you still
want to know who's coming in you want to
be able to let in all the people you
actually want in and if that's 10
million refugees well then let it be 10
million refugees but at least know who's
coming into the country right so so you
can there I've never heard a defense of
of this specific form of chaos you know
to take immigration as one example it's
like there's just there's no reason for
us to to to have this status quo and
there's no reason we ought to or there's
no reason to explain why it is well I
mean it's it logistically it could just
be too hard I don't I don't know that
anyone has actually made the case that
that actually one person on my podcast
made the case it's just it's it's
actually physically impossible to to
have a non-porous border I'm I'm not
sure I believe that but his this but his
argument was when you the the irony is
or the Paradox is as
you specifically with our Southern
border as you create the infrastructure
to you know you build the wall you build
roads to the wall so that you can build
the wall you're actually making it
easier and easier to get right to the
border so that you can actually go under
the wall or over the wall mean this
feels like incentive thing so you have
to change the incentive so I don't know
what all the things Biden signed into
law when he came into office but
supposedly there was some 50 some things
that he did that made it more appealing
to be uh somebody coming across putting
families in cages and separating kids
from their families and such that we
can't even reunite them even after a
year was not a solution either I mean we
we that whatever remedy however we close
the border it can't look like this just
dystopian horror show where you've got
people genuinely desperate people who
are just trying to seek a better life in
cages and separated from their kids
right so we have I don't know I I know
nothing about that part of this story I
don't know why it has to escalate to
people in cages but um I show me the
incentive and I'll show you the outcome
right so there's obviously some
incentive has changed and then also I
don't think people understand that if
you create an incentive people are going
to take advantage of it and so the one
incentive that got changed was listen
you know it's no longer true that if you
get to the Border you might never see
your kids again and wind up in a cage
right like that that was actually that
the news of that horror was propagating
back into the system and N this has to
be like that though right you could have
a physical border and then anyone who
gets to that border just gets redirected
to a legal Port of Entry where they have
to make an application for Asylum just
like everybody else right it's it's an
ideology problem if there was the
willing and look they and the reason we
know this is there are examples where
it's been fixed in recent years in 2013
Australia had illegal immigration
running at 177,000 people which for
their population of about 20 25 million
people is a lot of
people but they have these islands I
mean they have they have geographical
advantages that that what they had was a
leader who was willing to do some
unpleasant things in order to get that
problem fixed and in in the in the short
term and in the interim there were
people who suffered as a result of that
in the long term there are far fewer
people who end up making the perilous
Journey across the ocean dying Etc uh
This Is The Runaway compassion thing
look the idea that a country can have a
border is uncontroversial it's been the
the case throughout
history how many Marine bases are
getting invaded in this country none
because they have a border that's
enforced that's protected right but I
mean there's a larger geopolitical issue
here which I think our compassion should
spread to which is we should we should
recognize that we have an interest
in not merely exporting chaos beyond our
borders we want a world order that is is
more and more sustainable more and more
Equitable and so we we want we we have a
we have an interest even just purely
selfish interest to to make life better
in a place like Honduras so that we
don't have so many Hondurans escaping
escaping the murder capital of the world
or or seeking to escape it to come to to
America right so that's so all right I I
have more to say I have more to say on
this so Sam if I can keep you for a few
minutes that be wonder I'm so sorry I
got to run I've really enjoyed this it's
been a real pleasure to see absolutely
always wonderful my man all right
everybody if you haven't already be sure
to subscribe and until next time my
friends be legendary take care peace to
learn more about these complex topics
check out this episode with the one and
only Jordan Peterson look how much I
love my son he doesn't even have a penis
anymore those women online displaying
themselves they're not human you're a
cool if you think that's human Jews you
know they have IQs that are probably 15
points higher