Kind: captions
Language: en
Modern Life is conspiring to ruin your
romantic relationships from the pill to
the red pill dating apps crumbling
gender Norms social media weed porn
aimlessness all of it together is a
disastrous cocktail there are really
goofy ass people in the red pill
Community the people saying these things
haven't spent enough time around women
there really is a simple path to sexual
success and success in finding a real
lasting partnership here to talk about
it is relationship expert and massive
YouTuber Matthew
hussy the volume and velocity of
terrible dating advice that I see the
internet giving men is astonishing what
do you think men are getting wrong about
the game of Seduction when I think of
what men are getting wrong I see a I see
a lot of anger that I find concerning
what do you think driving that it's
almost a combination of there's like a
sense of entitlement I think to it of I
should be able to have this but I'm not
able to have that and there's also
discrepancy between what people you know
let's say what women are saying they
want versus what they go for which I
think pains a lot of people to see and
creates a lot of cynicism this idea that
I'm not
wanted for this version of myself but
I'm wanted when I'm a more aggressive or
worse version of myself when I hit a
certain age or when they hit a certain
age I am suddenly
visible in a way that I wasn't before
but am I visible for reasons that I
think are good or am I now
visible because this person's coming
from a place of scarcity
or they now
want safety and I represent safety but I
resent representing safety because I I
want to be wanted for the same reasons
you wanted that person over there but
I'm not seen that way so I I think
there's a lot there's a lot of guys who
feel
steamrolled you know what like they gave
their best to someone or something or
really tried and it wasn't good enough
or it wasn't you know the person they
were with still ended up wanting
something that was more superficial
or someone who is stereotypically hot or
masculine or whatever it may be
and you know if if someone if you've
been with someone who has accepted a lot
from you like taken a lot and you bent
over backwards in almost in good faith
in a way
that this was what they wanted and that
if you just more compromising if you
were just more sacrificing if you just
gave more to this person that
if you just and I when I'm describing
all these things I feel like I'm
describing so many women too so it's
it's funny
but that this person will see how
indispensable I am and then that person
walks all over
them and leaves anyway and goes for
someone who doesn't do half as much that
I think creates a lot of
anger so what what is that Dynamic why
is there a Gap between and I'll say
you're describing the the nice guy and I
don't necessarily mean that in the like
hypertoxic way that it becomes the nice
guy who's really using a uh I think they
call it the sneaky [ __ ] strategy where
they basically pretend I mean there's
real animals that do this that will look
like females they look like the female
of the species so that they can get past
the alpha male that that guards the
females they get ped by literally
looking like a female and then they mate
um so that that is a very toxic version
but I don't think that's what you're
referring to I would say right now
correct me if I'm wrong but a guy who is
legitimately um more gential by nature
and so he's getting hit by something
that he's confused
by yeah and maybe just feels overlooked
there's a book I want to read that I'm
saddened I haven't read before this
interview but there's a book I want to
read and I forget it's by a Japanese
author but it's there's I think there's
a moment where a a monk or a guy
destroys the temple that he thinks is so
amazing and so beautiful and there's
some idea there with hating the thing
that we
desire and I think that there is a
significant amount of that too of like
it's easy to end up hating the thing
that you want the most especially if you
feel like that thing has control over
you it has power over you if it you know
if you don't feel like you call the
shots then you can end up really
resenting that thing that you really
really want and so I feel like there's a
lot of there's this fine line between
wanting it so badly and then ending up
on the anger side of that because it's
not panned out the way that you would
have hoped and I'm curious to know what
you think in terms of hypocrisies that
maybe make a lot of guys angry
that I'm sure on some level feed into it
there's lots of narratives being played
out around that stuff when I look at a
lot of the anger out there it always
seems like there's a real sense of story
around it that makes people even more
angry about what they've decided every
person on this Earth is like or wants
and it's the stories they've arrived at
all like maybe some of them have arrived
at them in a data driven way or at least
in an empirical way where they just go
this has been my experience my whole
life and I can find lots and lots of
evidence for it there always seems to be
a real strand of story and othering
meaning they're telling themselves a
story about what it means that they're
being treated that way yes and what
every woman is like mhm and what every
woman wants and and so on and so on yeah
it's interesting so to me this is uh
entirely a game of what is so
I was the guy that I think you're
describing who is um maybe a little too
gential by nature and
so there is a discrepancy between my
instinct and maybe what I thought
Society was telling me a guy should be
and then what's actually what actually
makes somebody desirable I think there's
a really terrifying cocktail of things
that's happening right now um if you
look at the red pill community and the
things that they're trying to push it
there's such a grounding of usefulness
but it spills over into these hard and
fast rules and so I think about what's
your aim the red pill community's aim is
to dominate women now I don't know that
they would agree with that statement but
I'm prepared to debate that
statement whereas I think the ultimate
punchline is you should be looking for
somebody that's your equal that you're
contending with they're not going to be
the same as you but you have to
understand what women want versus
what you think they want and so if you
can play the game this is the way the
world is versus this is the way I wish
the world were then you can get a lot
farther ahead so getting mad and
spiraling out of control because people
have a nature guys have a nature women
have a nature if you can understand that
then you can navigate it and there's a
reason that I called it the game of
Seduction for me it became almost funny
Once I understood what it took to seduce
a woman and I use the word game because
it's playful it should feel light it
should feel fun like it shouldn't feel
like you're trying to pull a fast one or
anything like you're trying to to get to
a level of confidence where you can be
at ease you can be playful you can
accept there's a book called a billion
Wicked thoughts which I highly encourage
everybody that can hear my voice right
now to read and in it they look at the
difference between what go for from a
pornographic search standpoint and what
women go for and women go for it's like
vampires billionaires surgeons
werewolves and I think I'm missing one
but it like every novel because that's
women's pornography is is the romance
novel every novel if I didn't say
billionaire that's one of them uh they
all have that as the lead character now
once you understand that okay they want
the they want to tame a powerful and
dangerous man with
their
sexuality like once
you understand what cues then they would
be looking for in a man then it's like
okay cool I get this game now yes you're
going to have to become that kind of
person if you want to play this game
well but if you see it as a game of I
have to understand the rules I have to
understand I do not want to use the word
opponent my my dance partner because
that's really what this is I have to
understand my dance partner and how
they're operating and what they look for
and what they want but if I understand
that I can play this game well women uh
say that they want one thing but then
they select something else what's that
Gap so much of what drives attraction is
more
Charisma than those things I think that
it's a kind of the idea that the rich
guy gets all the
attention is quickly undermined
by how much a woman will pay more
attention to someone who's charismatic
in a room than the guy who is like you
know flaunting how much wealth they have
like that's a very very important driver
for so many people is like who's got
something about them in the way that
they carry themselves and I I sometimes
maybe I'm wrong because I'm not deep in
that Community but it sometimes feels
like there's too much emphasis on
women want a guy with power women want a
guy with you know status or with money
there have no doubt that some of that is
true for some people but I think
Charisma also like someone who's got a
certain charm about them plays a very
very key role in that too and maybe and
maybe in some cases a bigger role
honestly kind of I don't know what the
equivalent what the movie equivalent
would be like Titanic you know Kate
Winslet's less interested I get it's a
movie but Kate Winslet is less
interested in her rich guy on the top
deck than she is in Leonardo DiCaprio
being this sort of charming
charismatic guy who's bringing something
else into her life um what's the
something
else because I think in the answer to
that question
lies what everyone is trying to figure
out that's something else is a kind of
ability to be really
intensely
immersively yourself but I don't mean
that in the way that you know like be
yourself I mean like there's something
very compelling about someone I think
that like this with content online when
someone creates content in a way that
feels very uniquely them and they are
willing to bring their kind of quirks
and who they are to the table in a very
bold and unashamed way there is
something about that that is extremely
appealing I think that's part of your
appeal I think that there is a like a
thumb print to you that is uniquely you
that is unashamedly you and
it makes you someone who's very magnetic
and it's not a kind of magnetic appeal
that's easy for someone else to
replicate because it is just very much
you and I really believe that when
someone is able to you know we can go
Broad and go when you know I think let
me go broad for a minute I
think one of the things that makes us
attractive is unique
pairings so when you are someone who is
highly sensitive and can bring the best
of sensitivity to the table but you also
can go into caveman mode whether it's in
the bedroom or just in life in general
there's a there's a real it's to me the
contrast is extremely attractive it's
the juxtoposition between two things
that you don't normally find in the same
person in the same person it's the same
as someone who on a date can go very
very deep with you but then can be goofy
and make you laugh that's a unique
pairing and when you find unique
pairings there's something in instantly
alluring about that person so I think
that there are unique pairings that make
people very very attractive to me there
is always something about someone who is
really
unashamedly leaning into who they are
and what they're into and what they're
like and the way they see the world that
does more than just showcase the
individuality of that person it it
speaks to us I think on a deeper level
we like see something that we want to
attain for
ourselves and we we would like to be
bold enough or brave enough to be that
much ourselves as that person is themsel
and so I think that instantly we start
to
wonder what's making that how how did
they do that what makes them that
confident how did they how are they
so present with who they are um and I
think that I think that is a almost an a
less spoken about thing
that makes people very magnetically
attractive and I think it often makes
people attractive that we wouldn't
necessarily assume would be the most
attractive people in the room but when
you get in a room with them you kind of
get it you get what it is about that
person and you would never see it in a
picture again is I think one of the
reasons why I struggle with some of the
explanations that are put out about why
some people feel like they're they're
getting no results or it's not working
for them I because I I just feel like
it's more interesting than that I think
it's more interesting than whether
someone is 63 and you know has a certain
body and a certain level of looks and
and all of that I really do I've seen it
yeah I I would say there there is no
doubt that if you stop at the things
that you can put into a dating app
you're really going to be in trouble
you'll have a trophy you'll have
something that other people look at and
say oh my God like that's amazing he's
so good-looking or she's so hot or oh my
God God he's Rich this must be amazing
um but going back to what you were
talking about with Leo and
Titanic uh Charisma I think is the right
answer so I think the reason that the
red pill ends up getting it wrong but
there's so much right there that people
cannot help be attracted to it what the
right is so the right is I want you to
imagine that I give you a black bag and
in the black bag is a thing and all you
can do because you can't see inside of
it all you can do is reach in and sort
of feel around and
so what they're saying is there's uh
really thick skin there's a really long
rubbery uh nose there are gigantic ears
all of that's true but it's missing the
fact that this is an elephant and one
once you get to this is an elephant and
you understand the complexities of that
and you understand what that means and
you understand how their social dynamics
are and all of that that's far more
useful than it's got a trunk and big
ears and thick skin and all those are
true but you really have to take in the
hole and so when I look at the red pill
Community I'm like for so long people
have been describing the elephant the
way they wish it were not acknowledging
that it has a nature and
so you and I I'm older than you so for
me I've really seen this happen but when
I came up it was just Men Are from Mars
Women Are from Venus these are the
differences we just know it to be true
and then we moved into a blank slate
period and people started saying no men
and women they're basically the same
there's no differences it's sexist to
say that there are differences this is
crazy that was crazy making that was
lying not lying cuz I want to believe
that people actually believed it but
nonetheless it was violently untrue and
when the red pill Community came along
and started saying no no no big trunk
huge ears thick skin these things are
all real people were like yes Jesus that
is real women do like height uh women do
care about wealth and and they do and so
the question becomes in why are you so
right about Charisma because you are
right about charisma now I think you're
on the right path with it's somebody who
is being aggressively themselves and I
think what that signal is when somebody
can be
themselves it's because they've seen all
the attack
vectors I'm I'm going to put it in in he
language but I think this is
real when you the reason you have an
intuitive response to somebody that is
themselves it's the same reason that
when a dog rolls over on its back you
know that it feels safe right so my dog
will sleep on her back like that just
from an evolutionary perspective is a
sign of I feel so comfortable and so
safe now when you see somebody do that
in an environment that they don't
control you assume oh they've seen all
the attack vectors and they feel up to
the challenge now when a man can do that
and this is why when red pill guys so
you have to be able to hold frame yeah
that's true but you're not holding frame
to create a false
reality and you never let the woman see
who you really are and you're getting
her to submit to the FR I mean just like
they're right about the trunk and the
big ears but like there's a whole that
they're missing a a totality a wh o l e
that they are missing and that's why I
think it breaks down but when you see
somebody who is presenting themselves in
a way where I have assessed the attack
vectors and I can rise to this challenge
therefore I I am just going to be who I
am because I can take what comes you're
now ooh that person is I'll I'll use
maybe a loaded word that person is of
higher value than other people in this
room okay just by I've seen this for
people that have seen Michael Strahan on
TV let me tell you in person he he is
he's not a little bit more charismatic
than other people I've met in my life he
he almost isn't human like this guy is
the most likable person I've ever met in
my life and you have this intense sense
shine that light on me I want you to
shine that light on me there's something
about when
somebody has shown I'm going to be
myself I've looked at the attack vectors
I can rise to this challenge I have that
much confidence and then there's sexual
chemistry because you're I me they're
who you are attracted to whether it's
guy guy girl girl male female doesn't
matter when there's that added layer of
that sexual tension and then they aim
that light at you oof now you've got
something and that's what I learned I
learned that rolling up with the flowers
and the Poetry I was shining a light
that they walked into and that is very
different than becoming somebody who
people are interested in you turn it on
you start being yourself and then when
you can establish that you have
something interesting to say that
there's more the what you call the
dynamic pairings un pairings unique
pairings you've got that level of
complexity that level of interest and
now I'm interested in you and that if
I'm right and boy do I think I am if I'm
right that a billion Wicked thoughts has
really nailed this and that women it's
the classic uh Beauty and the Beast myth
women want to tame the vampire women
want to tame the billionaire they want
to tame that powerful guy with their
sexuality I mean just to to simplify it
hm yes but doesn't that kind of assume
every woman is at the exact same stage
of evolution on their own Journey that
that no one has gone like for example
there are people that get to a point
where Charisma for them is less
interesting because
it's for them it's just been a marker of
vanity it's been a marker of people
trying to constantly be the center of
attention be the person who wants to
walk into a room and hold everybody with
their stories and they've dated people
like that and they're like they've
almost come out the other side of it
where they've gone actually more than
anything I'm starting to see this as a
sign of insecurity not a sign of a
strong man or an interesting man or a
deep man it's just this is just another
way that people walk into my life and
you know shine brightly and there's not
much to it and so they actually start to
look for much more nuanced much more
subtle things that someone might have
that don't present themselves as the
kind of stereotypically charismatic
person that we think about when we think
about that I'm I feel like the same way
with guys in general like some of the
guys that I thought when I first met
them I was like me and this guy are
going to be best friends like I just
there's something about this guy and
then 3 months later I'm like oh that's
another example of a guy who presents
really well in the beginning is very
good at getting people to like him is
very good at shining a light on you for
that first hour but there's not a lot
there or there's not a lot of there's
there's no real qualities to this person
that make them a great friend or someone
I want in my life and having had that
experience enough time
I I don't value that experience in the
same way anymore I really don't like
some of my best friends are people that
weren't the most dazzling when I first
met them the people that I got to know
and I was like you like this is an
amazing guy and I love and the underated
part of him actually ends up being one
of the big things that I'm like this is
the thing I really appreciate in this
person so I I
worry about the how reductive it can be
because it assumes that everyone is at
the same level of finding the same
things interesting and that no one has
any kind of learning curve with those
things where they come out the other
side and go actually there's a much more
nuanced set of things that I'm looking
for than the
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kind so yes new which is not me saying
tons of people aren't attracted to the
charismatic vampire
I love that um so yeah I think that you
have to you have to understand people at
the averages so I think it is a a very
shrewd PhD level approach to tell guys
um look at the end of the day you and
this is why I say you're trying to
become somebody who is actually got
unique pairings not that they're faking
it or cuz I don't even think that
Charisma has to be loud great but I
think if you understand things at the
averages then you can figure out like
are you on the tail somewhere or
whatever but in the age of um we we are
in a toxic soup right now so I have a
growing level of concern about where um
the culture is headed now I think that
you're going to see people over the next
couple two to three years I think you're
going to see a real push for and I this
first made my radar because of what
Jordan Peterson is doing you're going to
see a real push to return to religion
you're going to see a real push to women
Embrace motherhood celebrating being a
mother celebrating staying at home to to
reopen that option as a valid life
choice because we just move through a
decade or two of that's not cool and
so I think that you are going to see
people really pushing those Traditional
Values and I have a feeling that history
is just this pendulum swinging back and
forth can't remember if you and I have
talked about this before but I've always
been mortified that when when I was like
14 and I read about Roman orgies I was
like wait that was 2,000 years ago
there's no orgies happening now so I was
deeply traumatized that I had missed the
good times yeah uh so only of course now
to to see okay this this is just a
pendulum that that swings back and forth
okay on a cosmic level you only just
missed it yeah yeah right it's only
2,000 years um so going back to the idea
of Charisma can be quiet but you really
do have to become the kind of person
that is interesting you really do have
to understand that if women are drawn to
height what what are you going to do to
compensate because you're behind the
eightball if women are drawn to men with
access to
resources what is that is that the
finger or the moon so there's uh I think
it's it's either DST or Buddhist where
they say don't confuse the finger for
the moon so when someone's trying to
point to a
thing MH know the difference between the
thing pointing and the thing that
they're pointing at now I have a feeling
that wealth isn't quite the thing that
they're looking for they're looking
for potential they're looking for
competence because on an evolutionary
time frame having a deer or whatever the
thing is because through I mean just the
absolutely staggering majority of human
history we didn't even have agriculture
so there was no way to stack wealth like
that so wealth is simply a modern cue to
oh this person knows how to get
resources in the future when I will need
them and yeah I'll stop there my concern
with so much of this
is firstly like certain things I hear
along the way like there will be a
return to you
know maybe you would say a more
conservative state or at least a more
traditional State religion embracing
being a mother embracing staying at home
and so on I don't know
that I
you
know why would
someone why is someone stepping away
from embracing being a mother or
embracing staying at home like what what
led to that I'm I'm I don't I'm not
steeped in the history of that but I'll
give you two words okay the
pill right so controlling the birth
cycle mhm
okay which meant what I now get to
choose I don't have to because when you
are pregnant giving birth and you have
to nurse and none of the Technologies
for breast pumping and all that
exist you have to stay at home and take
care of the kid and right from what I
hear and I don't have kids so I can't
vouch for this personally that
breastfeeding is if not a full-time job
it is a hyper robust part-time
job right so
th this is sometimes I get lost in so
much of the rhetoric around these things
because I feel like they always seem to
point to the differences between men and
women and very I I feel like so much of
the time it ends up just showing men and
women being very very similar if not the
same in so many ways you know
the for a man or a woman having an
exciting career is exciting right it's
fun the idea of being able to go out and
do that and have more control over that
part of my life on the surface at least
just feels like a really important and
good thing because I now get
to do something that brings me intense
fulfillment and joy in the same way that
men have been able to enjoy for so long
as a woman someone now gets to go and
enjoy that and make the most of that and
I think it's still I truly
it see for me it feels
like it's such a challenge and in some
ways such a sad State of Affairs that a
woman can be in a peak moment of her
career where things would just keep
going and then if she also decides at
that same time but I'm running out of
time to have a biological child of my
own that in some way is going to slow me
down to a greater or lesser extent
depending on the person and the way they
decide to parent or what resources they
have that that is going to slow them
down and
that that for me feels like
a it's a biological thing and it's a
we're not you know it might also it's
a cultural thing maybe of us not putting
the right resources around a woman in
that
situation um but
it's I look at that and I go what's the
real difference there between men and
women like they want the same things I
often think about the same you know I'm
going to ramble for a bit because I just
feel like there's different things here
that whenever I whenever I hear all of
it especially from the communities that
talk about these things I always feel
like there's this sort of strange
fetishization of the differences between
men and women you know it's like okay
women and height right but what is the
what is the diff like are we mad that
women are as superficial as men are like
that why is that superficial well it
whether you call it superficial or not
well because I suppose height doesn't
necessarily determine someone's value in
a marriage like if a woman wants a
taller guy we can say it's superficial
to the extent that it's a physical
quality it has no bearing on his
personality and it's not going to change
his value in the marriage there seems to
me a lot of anger around things like
that but a lot of hypoc
too because the same people that
complain that women only want this are
also guys who say but I only want
this and it's uh therefore not a blanket
kind
of I just want any woman and I don't
care I'm not
superficial it's a kind of I feel like I
want a certain kind of woman and I'm
frustrated or mad that that kind of
woman doesn't want me
which to me is the kind of
superficiality that they are accusing
the other side of and that's where it
loses me a bit because it feels like
there is this inherent kind of
entitlement and hypocrisy to it where I
don't want to change my standards for
what I want but I want someone else to
change their standards for what they
want um and then I you know we can get
into the whole sex thing but again
there's a kind of it feels like like
there's then an anger of women are as
sexual as guys are and I don't like that
that it feels like there's something
inherently threatening to a lot of guys
about the idea that you know God forbid
a woman be as sexual as a man is God
forbid she go and have her fun like
that's I want to go and have my fun but
I don't want her to go and have her fun
I want to be have been able to do all of
these things but I don't want her to
have been able to do all of these things
and I don't know on what basis we're
saying it's it
just I don't I how do I say it I I feel
I sometimes feel
like the people saying these things
haven't spent enough time around women
like they haven't spent enough time
being friends with women connect truly
connecting with women truly being close
to women
and and spending long enough with them
to realize that this there's like this
is kind of you and another body this is
not like there is not this thing of it's
me and it's them and they're so
different I've I've the more I know
women the more I kind of feel like God
we've been sold on just how different
they are and I'm not so I'm not coming
from a place of saying there's zero
differences between men and women that's
not my I don't have some kind of
entrenched stance on that so before
anyone says I'm someone who claims there
are no difference between men and women
I honestly don't have a dog in that
fight but I am I I do kind of look at
especially like content on YouTube these
days I look at that what feels to me
like this endless obsession with the
differences between men and women and I
go the more women are given the chance
to do things that men do or enjoy the
things that men enjoy or whatever
the the more I see them being similar in
a hell of a lot of ways more ways than
we try to claim they're different and I
think there are differences I I watch
the differences a lot of the time I
don't think you
know this the experience for me when I
look at it empirically often isn't the
same not always but often isn't the same
for a woman
who sleeps with a guy on a first date
versus a guy who sleeps with a woman on
a first date like if I I I imagine if I
took a sample of a hundred people how
many women after that first date having
slept with the person if they never
heard from them again would feel in some
way some regret or feel used it would be
higher than the number of men who would
say the
same
um but I am I I do somehow think that
these things get overhyped the money
argument I think gets overhyped I think
there is a kind of obsession with you
know I if I was a guy with more money
then I would do better with women and I
think that ends up that's an it becomes
another kind
of you know it's everything goes to the
guys with money and I think that gets
taken to such an extreme that it ends up
it ends up being completely divorced
from the reality of how many women
actually care about whether a guy has
money or not like we live in
LA so there's definitely a decent number
of people here that care if someone has
money and status and so on and that
might have been part of what attracted
to them them to this place
but God the number of relationships I
see again empirically the number of
relationships I see around me where
where money has not played a uh any kind
of a part in why someone was attracted
to that person it couldn't have because
that person wasn't coming from a place
of money or had less than that person so
I I I this is a long and rambling way of
saying I worry about the rabbit
holes that we go down in this area and I
think we can always find evidence for
them but a doctor friend of mine said to
me you know a statist statistics don't
matter to the individual when it comes
to illnesses if you're the person who
has an illness it doesn't matter if that
illness is one and 10,000 you have that
illness statistic doesn't matter to the
individual but I think in a positive way
that can be applied to your love life
it's the if you want to find
love the statistics or the kind of ideas
and stories people have about what uh
you know everyone's attracted to and
what they're doing don't if if you have
fundamental things in place like your
own confidence like an accept of
yourself and who you are like a sense of
purpose about what you enjoy and what
you want to do in life you you are going
to find someone who appreciates you for
what you are for who you are for what
you're doing that you don't fit into
some kind of a mold that would win the
popularity contest in The Mating Game I
don't think is the most important thing
to you to me that's like complaining
about the macro of what men and women
seem to be attracted to it to me is like
complaining about the government when
you're starting a flower
shop you don't need the government on
your side to have a successful flower
shop you need to do what you do really
well on your street and that's the part
where so much of it seems to so much of
it loses me I
suppose okay a lot of threads so thread
number one um
I agree with you very much that the
analogy of worrying about what all women
are like what they want whatever when
you're trying to uh just find one person
is irrelevant and you need to figure out
how do I become the kind of person that
people be attracted to um I am though
one of the fetishists around the
difference between men and women
and the reason that I
I agree with you that there are a lot of
rabbit holes and that I think people are
twisting their ankles in a lot of these
holes and they're just making a mess of
things all I'm saying to people is try
to identify the way the world is now
once you know the way the world is like
if I were 54 I'd be like okay word women
care about height can I give you a a
stat this is insane to me so they
created computer generated images of men
nude they showed them to women and they
said rate them on attractiveness mhm so
the guys were varying Heights with
varying sizes of
penis now if you want to make the woman
uptick him in attractiveness do you
think you make him taller or give him a
bigger penis taller for sure by a
country mile so if you make him like an
inch taller it was like it goes up I
forget the percentage goes up 10% let's
say for every inch and if you have a guy
that's over six foot you have to so I I
don't remember the height of the guy
they compared it to but let's say 5'6 if
you take a guy that's 5'6 and you
compare to a guy that's six foot or
taller you have to double the size of
his penis to get the same increase in
attractiveness that a single inch in
height gets you okay PSA if you want to
be in a thriving relationship remember
all that matters is how you make that
woman feel about herself when she's with
you if you make her feel seen safe
beautiful
heard your money some people are going
to be slow burs which is what you were
describing earlier that quiet Charisma
that takes time but that's harder right
because hey if they can see it right
away that's way better anyway if you
become the kind of man that makes her
feel the way she wants to feel when she
is with you amazing I'm just saying that
does break down into a fairly on average
knowable set of things now there are the
averages and then there are the
specifics and there's a great quote and
I really must look this up because every
time I have to go in this Preamble if I
don't remember who said it uh it was
originally said about men on average
sorry uh any individual man is a total
mystery on average they are a
mathematical certainty same is true of
women individually who knows what she's
going to be attracted to some women I'm
sure super inja short guys but on
average they're a mathematical
certainty what I want to see people do
is stop
fighting against just that humans have a
nature figure out what that is and play
the game to win when you look at the red
pill Community do you feel
like it is ultimately just fighting
against and therefore a recipe for
unhappiness no I don't so the the bad
news about the red pill Community is in
a sea of people saying there's no
difference they're the only ones
pointing out that the emperor has no
clothes my problem is that they never
say the point of a marriage is
to tackle this grueling difficult life
with a partner what did they say
instead that you need to um be a high
value man that can get any woman you
want don't settle for one woman sleep
with at least 50 women before you settle
down if you can keep your options open
to sleep with other women you should uh
women should submit to you you need to
create a frame invite her in
um that gets you 80% of the message what
maybe this is off track from where you
want to go but I'm just so fascinated
by how do they
Square the complete inequality of all of
that like what what by
what right are they saying that they
should have so much more than women
whether it's in terms of power whether
it's in terms of dominance whether it's
in terms of sexual partners whether the
dynamic of the relationship like what
what is what's the reasoning because
it's one thing to point out that women
on mass like taller
guys but where does the jump happen cuz
by the way you could make an argument
that women on mass men on mass like
women with a certain body shape MH like
and you would be right that doesn't make
women worse than men right it just is
the female equivalent of address that
yet of the male thing like I don't know
what there superficiality on both sides
is all that tells me it's interesting I
don't read that as superficial you read
it as a as a as a just a biolog
biological indicator of can be protected
by this means you don't have
parasites fine but that's that we accuse
that of being the the reason men get
angry with that is because it feels
superficial whether you argue from an
anthrop anthropological standpoint or a
evolutionary biology standpoint that
that's because of I could be protected
by this person better
the at on a human level what bothers me
about that is I'm a good guy and it
doesn't get any credit because you'd
rather go for for that guy who's a worse
guy but he's taller right that's what
bothers
us yeah so and there's the female
equivalent of that which is you don't
care that I'm a good woman you just want
me to be a certain weight or have boobs
of a certain size or have a certain kind
of ass like the men the idea that you
know like the demonization of women in
that respect is the part that bothers me
because I go what's the difference this
happens on both sides why people on that
side are so hurt by what they where
wherever it comes from what they
perceive to be a devaluing of who they
really are in favor of something that
appears
superficial is men can be accused of
just as
much
so where does the where's the leap to
and
therefore we should be able to dominate
women and we should be able to tell
women what to do and we should be able
to dictate what's okay for a woman to do
and what's not okay for a woman to do
and that they should have less sexual
partners than us and that they should
have less freedom in the marriage than
us and where what's
that okay um so the first thing I will
address is the reason that people
respond with anger and frustration to
the um what you're calling superficial
elements with no acceptance of I'm doing
exactly the same thing is something
called the psychological immune system
so the psychological immune system's job
is to keep you from committing suicide
so if you are rejected because you are
short and there's nothing you can do
about it and that feels like a terminal
thing and now I have no value because
this woman that I want rejected me
because I'm short psychological immune
system is going to kick in and say [ __ ]
her she's
shallow and instead of which I would say
is the healthy response um okay word I
have a deficit understood I'm going to
find my other points of
Leverage and the world is not a fair
place and so a lot of this stuff like if
you want to lament anything lament
intelligence it it is
ungodly that there are people that have
an adiq
bro they can't stuff envelopes I I mean
that literally the the US military will
not accept somebody with below 84 IQ I
think is a cut off that means you can't
even get shot well like you are a bigger
distraction I can't even like put you in
front of bullets because you will create
more
problems that terrifies me there but for
the grace of God go I I did not do
anything to earn whatever intellect I
have bro that sucks but it is and so now
the question becomes all right you've
got the you've got people responding
poorly to this situation some are
getting resentful and bitter others are
uh like when the a a true tyrannical
patriarchy takes over and we have a
problem and women are legitimately not
given the same rights and they are
tucked in a corner and they're um
instructed to do as they're told that's
hor horrendous horrendous people need
only look at the woman I'm married to
cuz I can tell if people are clipping me
out they're they're going to think I'm
something that I'm not I am married to a
badass entrepreneur who stands on her
own two feet makes her own money is a
[ __ ]
badass
however
if if she did not without faking it look
at me like I'm powerful we couldn't be
together because I have an evolutionary
algorithm in my brain that makes me
respond like a drug when my wife looks
at me like oh my God like you're so
powerful you're amazing I love
that I I want that I need that I'm going
to seek that I'm going to find that and
if thankfully I get that from my wife we
are equals let me assure you but we are
different and so I look at her her with
just amazement at the things that she's
good at that I'm not and thankfully she
looks at me in amazement at the things
that I'm good at that she's not and
thankfully both of those line up with
the evolutionary algorithms that are
running in our brains where we want to
be rewarded for those specific things so
the red pill Community you were saying
what gives them the right okay it
depending on where you're at on the
Spectrum like there are really goofy ass
people
in the red pill community that
are they are currently stunted in their
development and I will be very excited
to see them
mature then there are people that have
matured quite a bit but I'd still put
them in the red pill
Community the people at the low end
they're in the grips of the
psychological immune system they feel
rejected they feel less than and they
need to lash out they don't understand
they're doing it it's pure emotion they
are angry and that anger feels like
Truth The Red Pill gives them the words
to say oh this is why she's a [ __ ] so
it's not an abstract concept I can
actually tell you she's hypergamous she
just [ __ ] wants money she dates over
and up and uh I'm too short and it's all
superficial and she just wants to be
taken care of and to monetize her ass
and uh right that's going to be they're
stuck they're they are not seeing the
world the way that it really is but they
have words now for the psychological
immune system to leverage to explain why
they're right and she's shallow for
rejecting them but as you get up higher
you're going to start hearing people say
things like uh this is a woman's nature
she will be happier having kids she'll
be happier raising those children and
tending to the home and um she is my
equal and we're just different right
now you will hear me say some of those
words which is why I'm like there's
enough real in the red pill Community
it's not just going to go away but
when I hear she will be happier
yep there isn't there I can't help but
here there's just
rampant
patronization embedded in that that I
can't you can't take what she says at
face value that she wants you need a man
to tell her what she wants CU she really
doesn't understand what she wants she's
running around doing all of her things
that she's doing but she doesn't
understand that what she really wants is
this thing that I as a man know she
wants there I can't I can't imagine the
the other way around being like men
feeling that that was in any way
tolerable that a woman was saying you're
too dumb to know what you want
essentially or you're too let's say not
self-aware or not aware of your nature
to know what you really want how about
to
toxic because we hear that a lot that
men are too toxic yeah
fine but there's plenty of that like I
can't argue that there's not plenty of
to toxicity in the mail like I you
exhibit a everything we've been talking
about in this interview that comes from
the extreme of that which I can't help
but I mean look I'm not deep in what the
world of I'm not deep in I I I'm not
highly highly aware of red pill I
learned much of my red pill stuff from
how much you know about it but I'm
definitely also not deep in whatever the
female equivalent of that is but I would
be I would be shocked I'm sure there's
plenty of hatred towards men in those
communities but I would be shocked if it
took the same
form as it seems to be taking on the
male side the same level of aggression
the same level of no because men and
women are
different okay so women's Savage
reputations
hash me
too social media in
general
tyrannical uh
authoritarianism is in this I was this
was where I started the conversation
with Jordan Peterson was like this feels
like
when
female um aggression becomes
pathological it manifests as uh you
can't do that there are things that must
not be said there are things that
um are just too Beyond The Pale to even
discuss but you don't think that comes
from men to because I feel like there so
many men who do that when when male
aggression goes pathological it's the
Mongols it's kill rape pillage it's
horrendous horrific when men go wrong
they go [ __ ] wrong and I feel it very
prudent of me to plant the flag right
now and say that uh I'm as mortified as
you are when guys are like oh she
doesn't know well enough bro the last
thing I'm going to do is tell my wife no
no no what you bless you sweetie you're
not able to think through this problem
this is what you need to do my wife
helps me think through problems we are a
pair so I want her insights I want her
intelligence that's where this all
breaks is they're not looking for a
partner they are
and look this now we're into my
bias when the red pill community at the
high end where they're they have a lot
of good points I think and this is where
it would be very useful to have somebody
that truly believes this to speak but uh
I have a feeling what they would say is
you need a brotherhood like fellow
soldiers building businesses together or
legitimately I mean there's two Wars
going going on right now so uh that that
Brotherhood fills that and that from a
historical perspective it is almost
certainly true that marriages were
economic and family in nature they were
not um about love and uh like this is my
best friend and you're getting
everything that you ever need from one
person um so they would
say what my wife and I do together is
build a family and we divide and Conquer
and we are equals um I'm the leader in
the house and so yes I make decisions
and women I don't know if you argue this
but literature seems pretty clear women
are are hypergamous they want to dat to
cross and up so they are perfectly happy
to date somebody more intelligent than
they are um men are not and if you look
at the stats when a woman out earns a
man dude divorce rates go up domestic
violence goes up the use of erectile
dysfunction medication goes up I I think
men are pretty simple if they don't feel
powerful you are in trouble so anyway uh
so that's where I think they break down
now I don't know I I have long had a
hypothesis about why I am so good at
long-term parir
bonding I have a feeling I've never
gotten myself tested but I have a
feeling that I have just an unbelievable
amount of receptors for oxytocin and
vasopressin so when I bond with my wife
dude that [ __ ] is my everything that is
my everything I I would kill Slaughter
maim for my wife um which is a very
masculine way of saying that I love my
wife it definitely is yeah so uh yes I I
think they miss something they they miss
a very critical piece but they are
giving
voice to something that I think men feel
intuitively even if they aren't able to
put words to it which is everything I'm
being told does not feel right and that
feel right to me is a discrepancy
between the algorithms that they have
running and uh The evolutionary
algorithms and what they're being told
don't uh be aggressive don't uh be hyper
ambitious don't be um physical uh sit
down pay attention and we're creating a
world where there's it's something like
by the year 2035 I'm making that up but
this is what I'm about to say is
directionally correct though not
literally by the year something like
2035 50% of everybody in America will
grow up without a father in the house
who yeah terrifying so it's one of those
where you now have a just female Le
Society that's a bit of an overstatement
that doesn't feel right which is why I
say that in a weird way but there's
there's a tension there that
is just as an overly masculinized
Society can tend towards pathology so
can and a I won't even say that uh I
will say you need both and when you
don't have both you have some level of
muted
characteristics
H I've been seeing a lot more literature
coming out recently
around there's a there's a book called
get married by I think Brian Wilcox I
might have that wrong I've seen like a
growing amount of people espousing to
your point the values of marriage and
how important it is and so much of it
seems to center around that idea of it's
not great for people to be raised by
single parents and people need to get
married and people need to be in the
traditional family unit and I I don't
know where I'm going with this point
but I
am you know when you say by a certain
point 50% of America is going to be you
said raised by a single parent uh raised
by in the house yeah
your home is where you should feel the
safest stay protected connected and in
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I've had this discomfort looking at the
num the am amount of stuff that's
current content currently being
generated about why people should get
married that seems to be in some way
aimed at
women that is missing the point
entirely of what is really happening
because the majority of my audience I
mean increasingly actually we have a
huge community of men too um which I
love um but it's the majority is still
women and they really really want to
find love they really want to meet
someone
the the problem out there isn't that
people are rejecting relationships not
as far as I can see it's that they
really want one and they are struggling
out there to find a relationship to find
someone that they
either feel is right for them or in some
cases to be visible at all they feel
like they are totally invisible out
there in the dating world and that to me
is
I'm you know that's always I I have this
weird position of having grown up as a
guy I relate to so many of the things
that people say when they're hurt as men
I have had been in the situation of
being utterly steamrolled in a
relationship and being that person that
was
like like came out of it feeling like
what on Earth was I thinking like I got
walked all over there I
have
um two brothers I understand the kinds
of insecurities that guys have but I've
also spent so much time around women
that I see how hard I I I have this
front row seat to how hard it is out
there for women and to the kinds of
things that they come up against and to
how lovely and kind and wonderful so
many of these people
are
and it is
so unbelievably at odds with the
rhetoric that I see coming from those
communities of
guys that and and and you know again
differently as we've already said
there's a there's a warped rhetoric
coming from communities of women too
that I think fund fundamentally
misunderstands guys and I think
fetishizes the otherness of guys as well
um and I think there's a lot of
misunderstanding in female communities
of how sensitive guys really are and I
think to that idea like why are men so
angry I also think that that anger is a
very
very it's a very seductive shield for a
lot of guys against being seen for just
how fragile they are for just how
vulnerable they are and how sensitive
they are I know it because I've had you
know my own versions of it in my life I
know that before I was who I am today
and I when I would get jealous of
something my go-to wasn't let me be
vulnerable about the fact that I'm
jealous my go-to was passive aggression
going cold going on the attack creating
an argument distancing myself from
someone altogether be and all of that
was just insecurity all of that was just
me being afraid afraid that I didn't
match up afraid that I wasn't good
enough afraid that I didn't compare to
that guy over there afraid that I was
going to get left you know afraid I was
going to get my
heartbroken but that didn't manifest as
vulnerability from me as a guy it just
manifested as um either anger or being
controlling
or honestly just not being a nice person
like being you
know whether someone would call it toxic
masculinity I don't think it was that
far on the Spectrum but you know you can
see it's all a
spectrum you know had I gone further and
further and further it would have easily
become some version of that
because I think so much of that anger is
I think so many of these men are deeply
deeply hurt and I think that there
there's a sensitivity there and and an
insecurity there that that anger is a
shield for and am I like
I all of that is to say working with the
number of women I've worked with over my
life I have so much compassion for what
women go through and what they've
experienced and and how so many of these
women are exactly the same as the
guys so many are like what do you mean
by that they are they really want to
find love and they feel
invisible they feel completely
overlooked they feel like they do not
fit the mold and that life has just been
nothing but disappointments for them and
that for me is is no different than the
level of disappointment that is
experienced on the other
side but my my my thing with all of this
is I I
so I absolutely take your point about
when you realize that you don't meet the
height requirement for Mass
attraction
um I don't I don't want to be Rose
tinted glasses about that I I just for
me everything goes to acceptance
everything always goes to acceptance it
always goes to okay what can I control
and and for sure everyone can control
enough variables that they can be
attractive to someone and that they
could have an incredible relationship
and by the way if you're annoyed even at
that point that you can't be the person
that everyone in the room has
animalistic attraction for on the level
that Brad Pit does when he walks into a
room well you also weren't born in some
impoverish Street in Africa where you
had to worry about your next meal so you
won a
lottery right you maybe you didn't win
the height Lottery but you won a lottery
and we're really good at focusing on the
lotteries we didn't win and getting
frustrated or angry about those but the
the to me it feels like this enormous
dismissal of how good we have it or how
many things we do have going for us or
how many ways we lucked out in life
which is to me goes back to the
entitlement of I feel entitled to a
better life and easier life life than
the one I have um but it's by who says
who says life sucks for so many ways for
so many people you could have died when
you were two like it's
it's you know our job is simple is just
make the most of what you have and you
can have a really really great life if
you decide to do that or not by the way
or your life is so bad that you happen
to be on a street that a terrorist
organization is mowing down next week
and you don't have the chance to make
your life great despite trying to
control all the variables but again if
you're still commenting in the community
you're not that person so it's
I my my thing is and the reason I like
having conversations like this because
this this is not my wheelhouse like
having these conversations is not this
isn't something I engage with a lot
because I'm spending all of my
time with people trying to just
compassionately work with them to help
them be happier more peaceful whatever
that means for them and I work with a
lot of women but I absolutely love
anytime Audrey will tell you when a guy
comes up to me on the street and says
you really help me I get really really
like that for me I'm much more giddy
when the guy comes over because I'm just
excited to see that a guy follows and he
enjoys the work and that for me is like
a big moment because I love men I love
men
but when I do engage with conversations
like this which I Feel Complete amateur
in I my only goal is how do we how do we
get more people like how do we actually
bring men and women together and have
them be more compassionate towards each
other on the women's side too
because to me that will change the game
for people it won't just change the
world in whatever modest way I am able
to do it but it will also change the
game for everyone who's actually who I'm
able to do that I had a I had a guy um
say on a recent video I did I'm a
recovering red
pill you know Community member or
whatever whatever he said but I was like
that that meant a lot to me because I
was like oh if you're on the BR if
you're on the like fence or if you're
even leaning towards the fence or even
curious listening over I I would like to
be that person that could invite people
to another way of thinking about this
because I do believe life is inherently
unfair I really do like the how many
people are out men are out there getting
hair transplants because they just feel
like the moment they get it they'll
they'll be more visible to the opposite
sex or to the same sex like it's we know
this it's so it breaks my heart how much
vulnerability there is in the world how
many different ways we can feel fragile
and not enough and and and
vulnerable
um but
I but I do believe if we get out of this
idea
of if you're trying to play the game of
how many people can I attract in Life or
how can I like do can I attract on mass
or can I be the most popular person then
you're in trouble in certain situations
if you don't have certain markers but if
your game that you're playing is I want
to find an awesome human being to share
my life with I really believe that so
much of what these people are talking
about does not have to be something that
is even on your radar it doesn't have to
be something that it that uh impacts
your life you can go your whole life
without knowing any of those theories
and you will be fine so long as you have
certain things which goes back to what
you said the there are certain things
that make the difference what are those
things what can I be
um but the the the the losing yourself
in the
arguments I think is the enemy of
actually finding a relationship the same
way I think that women losing themselves
in the bitterness that they have towards
men in general is the enemy of finding
an amazing relationship with a
man yeah I could not agree more um I
want to go back to something that you
said that I didn't quite understand um
there's something that distresses you
about the messages aimed at women around
the importance of getting married oh
yeah what is it about though is it that
you think that that's being too
prescriptive about the thing that will
make them happy no I think that it's
like saying to someone who hasn't got
money right now your life would be a lot
easier if you just had $5
million
okay
like I If you can deposit it in my
account that would be great but the the
it's like not solving the actual problem
what do you see what is the actual
problem that is a great question I think
that there's a there's challenges on
both sides but it's both sides meaning
men and women men and women people
aren't being proactive enough in their
love
lives when they are proactive they are
often entertaining the wrong
things instead of identify in what the
right things
are and then moving aggressively towards
them and saying no to things that don't
fit that can you give us some examples
of what the right things are someone's
not texting me back and that feels more
interesting than the person who is that
someone is hot and cold but we had an
amazing date last week and I'm going to
be blinded by how amazing that date was
instead of paying attention to the fact
that since that date they've been wildly
inconsistent with their communication
and are showing no
promise it's the cha chasing the wrong
things is taking these things that make
someone a Bad Bet a bad partner a bad
Communicator someone who's not ready and
then continuing to get locked into those
things instead of identifying what are
the things that are actually going to
make me
happy even if they're comfortable for a
while cuz a lot of people find it hard
to like when we start going for
something
healthier it feels unnal to a lot of us
it
feels you know even for me going from
dating to a healthy
relationship you know at the time as a
single man I there was an addictive
quality to the way that I
dated you know it was
spikes and I had to get to a point in my
life where I said this doesn't this
isn't making me happy this is like
leaving me feeling strange and anxious
and
disconnected and the hangovers seem to
be
worse you know it just doesn't in the
emotional hangovers you know like this
just doesn't make me feel good anymore
but when you realize something doesn't
feel good it doesn't mean that you're
programmed to want the right thing yet
it just means doesn't feel good anymore
and there's a transition period you know
I write there's a chapter in the book
called How to rewire your brain which is
really about how do you get yourself to
start to
actually train your body and your
psychology around something that
ultimately is going to make you happier
but in the short term may feel alien to
you because of the way you've set up
your life or what you're going for and
I'm now in the healthiest most peaceful
most beautiful relationship I've ever
been in that's has no shortage of
passion but it's
calm and it's there's a very different
feeling to it and it's there's no
volatility that's not
chaotic it's a different it's a
different kind
of uh
sensation and I think sometimes you know
we've been we've often from childhood
we've been programmed to chase
Sensations that are not going to make us
happy they are going to make us
miserable but we chase them because
they're what we know what has been
imprinted
and
um and so I think that there's a big
task for a lot of people they will keep
chasing those things that make them
unhappy so long as that old wiring is
still in place talk to me about the
wiring what is it that makes people
chase the wrong
thing we're raised you said to chase the
wrong thing I think that
we you know if we
have look if we're brought up in a way
where let's just take one we're made to
earn love in the way that we have to
show up in the way that we have to um
make everyone happy like maybe we were
The Peacemaker in our family and we got
love for being The Peacemaker and for
always being there for everyone and for
always going out of our way and you know
we carry that into the rest of life it
doesn't make us someone who's good at
meeting our own needs we find our self
getting into relationships where we're
constantly trying to meet somebody
else's needs and anytime we even worry
about our needs we feel unsafe we feel
like this th this doesn't make me like
me focusing on what I want makes me feel
like I'm going to like it makes me feel
uneasy and maybe I don't even know why
but it makes me feel anxious to make it
about me so I'm just going to make it
about you but I'm going to spend years
in a relationship where I'm deeply
resentful of you because you never think
of me but I never ask you to think of me
right because it's just not in my
programming to do that there's other
people that it's love is you know being
abandoned for days on end or for weeks
on end and then all of a sudden you know
someone gives me a gift and I breathe
because I'm like oh my God they they
still they're thinking of me you know if
that was your pattern growing up then
you go into adulthood and someone
doesn't text you for a week and it makes
you feel like you're going to die which
is completely irrational but you can't
breathe you can't eat you can't sleep
you're just like I feel sick why won't
this person message me and then Friday
Night comes around and they say what's
up and you're like oh my God they
they've been thinking of me they do like
me and it feels like the greatest
feeling in the world and it feels like
confirmation that this is something
really special it must be something
really special this person must be
really important because it feels this
good but there has nothing to do with
the quality of the relationship quite
the
opposite it is familiar it is what we're
used to and so I you know I watch people
in their love lives repeat these
patterns over and over again because
their nervous system is just trained for
certain things if you take
a drug
addict and on the day they quit and
they're going cold turkey you ask them
to sit in front of a Sunset and
appreciate it
it will be the most boring thing in the
world it cannot compare to the euphoric
highs that they have been experiencing
of course those Highs are followed by
the you know corresponding crashes and
the depression and all of that but but a
sunset's not going to move the
dial but at a certain
point when You' stopped experiencing
those Sensations for long enough you
might actually learn to appreciate
something that is by the way spectacular
there is something or inspiring about it
there is something that makes us feel
deeply grateful or deeply connected
there is something about nature that is
just Transcendent but if you've been
experiencing like free
highs you are not going to appreciate
nature two days later and I think the
great relationships the things that I
appreciate the most about my
relationships to my relationship today
with my
wife it they are things that I don't
think I could have been present for five
or 10 years ago there are things that
I've by by in a sense retraining my
nervous
system have allowed me to now have a
level of gratitude that is beyond
anything I've ever
experienced how do you prime your mind
for that what are the so I think that
people build their frame of reference
which is like a set of beer goggles
through which you view your own
life you uh shape it by your beliefs
your values um and your biology but
we'll leave that aside for now
so what beliefs what values did you
begin to adjust in your own mind in
order to Prime yourself to get out of
the sort of drug fuel drug like um
addiction to your dating
cycle first I had never felt truly seen
and accepted before the way that Audrey
saw and accepted me now was that just
luck that you found somebody uh I think
it was a bit of me realizing like
something's I'm not there's
something it was me being on a path
to I'd been humbled a lot in like the
last 10 years of my life and things had
gone wrong and I experienced health
issues and a lot of that like you know I
I got to a point
where you know maybe if you met me at 25
there was a much more like Invincible
version of
me that just felt like I was bulletproof
and I knew it all and you know and then
I got punched in the face a few times
you know I got my heartbroken that was a
big one never had my heart broken that
badly before
I experienced years seven years of
crippling chronic pain that physical
pain that took me out of my life I mean
I was a zombie in my own life for a very
long time a very highly functioning
zombie but like truly went to a
therapist said to him I'm
not like I don't know what to do like
I'm I'm just going to I literally said
to I've made a decision that I'm going
to live for other people from now on
because I'm never going to be happy
again for as long as this chronic
condition is still here and I have been
trying to make it go away for 5 years
and nothing has moved the needle on it
so I was convinced that my life was over
and truly convinced like okay I have a
team that relies on me I have a family
that relies on me you know I have people
in my life that I love so I'm I'm going
to be here for them and I'm going to
show up and make their lives as good as
I can possibly make them but I my life
is over I was truly convinced of that at
one point um and so that's a very
humbling experience and when I met
Audrey I was you know on a path of
trying to figure out what you know where
my happiness was coming from and what
you know how I could try
to connect to my life so I was searching
I think it a short answer and
then she
responded to me differently than I think
people had in the past and by the way
people I dated in the past were awesome
they were great there was no nothing
wrong with anyone that I dated they were
amazing people
but something about the way that Audrey
approached me and the vulnerability that
she kind of invited me to now are you
emom matat at this point or are you
still car
Matic no I'm I'm like I'm I'm like like
a kind of more subdued Charisma I was I
I feel like I was more outwardly
charismatic when I was 25 than than like
you know seven years later because I
just I I was still I was still me but I
just I had really been humbled like
truly I'd been brought to my knees by
this thing
and um I didn't feel Invincible anymore
and more than that I was worried I I had
thoughts I had the story that like now
that I can't now that I've like got this
chronic pain and it it has made me feel
so
weak like so fragile and I don't mean
like physically fra like emotionally
fragile that I thought if anyone knew
how emotionally fragile I felt right now
it would be so
unattractive like I all my deepest
insecurities came out that I'm not going
to be enough for someone I not going to
be the alpha male that someone might
want I'm not you know like I had all
that plagued me
and um I was telling Lisa that like I
remember having uh I remember having a
fight with Audrey where I didn't this
was very early on I
didn't want to show any of I didn't want
to show vulnerability I didn't want to
show why I was upset I didn't want to
show that the real reason behind the
fight was that something she had done
had made me
insecure I just I just tried to like
fight and push her
away and by the way that was like I had
years before that shared something very
vulner like of insecurity with someone
and they looked at me and said that's
really unattractive wow yeah and it it
really like it it truly punched me in
the G like I I remember going I was
living with my friend at the time and I
remember going to my my friend and
saying to him I was so Ang I was not
even angry with her I was angry with
myself for showing it yes I hated myself
for showing it I was like you
idiot like
why why would you say that you knew knew
it was a bad idea you knew that would
make you seem insecure you knew that
would make you unattractive and you got
like there it is and because I already
secretly suspected that oh this
insecurity makes me detestable or this
insecurity makes me ugly or unattractive
when she said that it was like I for a
moment I was like I'm never doing that
again what should men take away from
that story and before you answer that I
will say my wife once said to me your
insecurities are not sexy and I was like
godamn and it
was exactly what I needed to hear
because I was
looping she didn't say it the first 10
times but there was finally one night
she was like you know it's not sexy
right and her punchline was do something
about it or stop talking about it
but [ __ ] looping around it so here
you've got two guys high functioning
emotionally intelligent but we both have
a story where women were for real like
hey that insecurity isn't attractive yes
now what what's the takeaway well that's
the funny thing because you and I may
have come to different conclusions on
that cuz I I for a while I was like I'm
I'm going to guess we came to the exact
same conclusion but I can't wait for
let's see
but it it definitely it made me
resentful for for a minute and it made
me made me not like myself it made me
mad and then did you guys break up over
that not over that but we obviously it
didn't last but but no not over that but
I remember I remember having the exact
thought
of now that I've said that this person's
fundamentally changed the way they look
at me like I remember having that
feeling which was my worst fear that
this insecurity is now going to become
the truth of how you see me instead of
all of the wonderful ways I've showed up
all of the manly ways I've showed up all
of the Bold confident sexy ways I've
showed up that this is now going to be
the truth of how you see me and there's
no going back
right
and that I think I always carried that
fear by the way you know that didn't
that fear didn't start the day that
happened happened that just was this
major validation of a deep fear that I
had
and it was almost like I trusted that
person with a part of me that they just
would not they couldn't make room
for cut to
Audrey
and what almost could have pushed her
away was the antagonistic way I brought
up something that I had a grievance with
not not the insecurity behind it not the
fear behind
it and when you know she approached me
and said look I want to I want to
understand more about like where that
comes from or what's like what made you
feel I'm I I hate F and by the way
here's where she was like checked me she
was like you can't bring me stuff like
this in this way like this is not
okay but I do want to understand what's
like why that hurt you because I really
don't want to hurt you that's the last
thing in the world I want to do so I
want to understand that so she there was
a compassion but there was also a
standard there of like this is not you
can't bring stuff to me in this way this
is not
right but when I actually shared I it's
funny I shared with
her that inse the deepest insecurity the
fear and
then an hour later I was feeling really
really
off and I was
like she was like why what's wrong like
you're being I can feel you being cold I
can feel like something's going
on and I then had to articulate my even
bigger fear
now that now that I've said this you are
going to view me differently and I've
somehow sabotaged the relationship by
saying saying this thing that I'm never
going to be able to you're never going
to be able to unhear it and it's now
going to become this truth about me in
your eyes and she said to me you know
when you tell me stuff like that it has
no bearing on how attracted to you I am
it like it makes me love you more I see
more parts of you it does not change it
doesn't take away any of the other ways
that you are like it just allows me to
view you holistically and see as a whole
who you are which I love I always love
knowing more about you and it doesn't
change any of those ways that you show
up that your sexy you're confident or
you're bold or any of that it doesn't
change how manly I see it doesn't change
any of it it just it just allows me to
know more about you and I don't know if
I believed her the exact first time she
said that but over time I began to
realize that the more I showed of myself
it was having no impact on her
attraction for me it had no impact on
you know our sex life it had no impact
on how how the moments where she made me
feel powerful she didn't stop making me
feel powerful in the moments where I was
being those things either it and and
that for me has like been a very
corrective and healing experience it's
changed I now have I've never felt like
I can be more vulnerable than I am
today
and I don't feel now is actually my
confidence has also I think shifted in
the sense that I don't feel like by
sharing this thing it makes me not that
thing because she's allow she's created
a space where there's room for all of
those things and that's that for me like
when I now I realized what she gave me
was something I couldn't give to myself
or didn't give to myself for from
basically my whole life until these last
couple of years which is to look at the
regrets I have to look at the things
I've done that I feel ashamed for to
look at the things I've done that I feel
guilty about or that I don't want to
identify with because I'm just like I
hate that I was that person or I hate
that I was like that or I hate that all
those shame you know all those things I
carry around with me that I think if
people knew that they would no longer
like me they would no longer think I'm a
great person they would know when what I
was able to do then is start to view
myself
holistically and
contextually and to see oh behind that
action that I'm not proud of or or I
regret was a scared person or was
someone who was desperately in need of
love and did not know how to get it um
was desperately looking for connection
and did not know how to get it was
desperately trying to feel a sense of
control and did not know how to get it
and that the way she modeled that for me
has been
incredibly healing for me like
lifechanging lifechanging healing for me
like it's it's it's made it's been one
of the most important discoveries of my
life and I'm still on that I'm still
doing that Discovery what do you mean
what did you discover
that I didn't
that I could actually take what I
thought were the darkest parts of me and
I
could I could see something behind them
I could see whatever there was a I was
trying to get something I was trying to
feel something I was trying to you know
feel love or feel in control or feel I
was scared wounded whatever it may
be and that this I'm not I am not that
mistake and whatever was behind it that
still exists in me today orbe it that
that part of me might have better tools
today or a better frame of reference or
a better way of coping with life or a
better way of handling life that that to
me is gamechanging cuz now like as for
as long as and I think guys do this all
the time I think that that we fracture
ourselves because we're like that side
of me is so
ugly or so fragile or
so despicable or so shameful or so that
I I dare
not talk about it and if anyone knew
about that side of me I would no longer
be
lovable a and I you
know working I feel like whoever is out
there working with men and
that the shame that they carry and the
guilt that they carry and all the ways
that they tell themselves either that
they're you know either they're so
embarrassed about their weak moments and
they live with them and they torment
themselves over them and they you know
you know I should have stood up to that
person seven years ago you know like I
should have done something I should have
like the ways men torture themselves
about that or the ways they torture
themselves about the the transgressions
or the things that they wish they had
done differently or the way hurt someone
that they've still not been able to
forgive themselves for I think whoever
is doing that work with men is like
changing the world cuz when us men feel
shame and when we fracture ourselves in
that way it's that's to me the root of
just so many
problems what's so useful in that story
is that it went wrong the first time mhm
and I have a feeling that a lot of men
they stop at the first
time and whether that's somebody in high
school that says a thing that they're
not even dating but they just throw that
in their face or they are in a
relationship and they finally allow
themselves to be vulnerable and it gets
thrown back in their face um short of
finding someone like Audrey how do they
come back from that so there's a lot of
talk about men integrating their Shadows
the dark side of their
personality but how do
they without needing somebody else to be
the S how do they integrate that part of
themselves without needing somebody to
accept it or is the healing only
possible when you can find somebody that
can stand in that and be like yeah
you're good that's such an interesting
question I I I think I had already begun
to do it which was what helped me cuz
some people not they could meet someone
like Audrey and they wouldn't they still
wouldn't be able to go there the reason
I was able to go there and I needed like
a nudge as opposed to like a baseball
bat to the head is like
I I had already been doing that work
with a therapist I had already been
sharing more with certain people in my
life and you know with my parents with
my uh with certain very close friends
with I I had started that process of
sharing things that I felt like were
unacceptable about
me and it for me that that had already
begun almost this out external modeling
of what I needed to do for myself but
realizing that there were certain people
in my life that didn't run away from me
or didn't abandon me or didn't you know
that the things that I thought were like
deep shameful they were
like you're fine like
that that was a very very like healing
experience for me so I don't think that
you have to find it in the company of a
romantic partner immediately I think
that you can find reference points for
what that is like it's one of the
reasons I think men's groups are really
great is because you can start to if
you're in the right men's group you can
start to
you know not only show those things
about yourself but you can hear other
men talk about things that you thought
only you did or only you felt shame over
or only you felt insecure over and that
that's just there there's something
deeply powerful about that at least then
you know what to look for when you find
it at least you've had experiences that
when it comes to meeting a romantic
partner you know the feeling I'm looking
for is the feeling I had in that group
of people or with that therapist or with
that friend where I can share something
about myself and it brings us closer it
doesn't it isn't met with just insane
levels of contempt or judgment or
disgust or you pushing me away and
there's
someone like I there's someone who is
that like not everyone can be that for
you that's the other thing like it
doesn't make them a bad person that they
can't be that for you it just makes them
not right for you because they may not
understand the particular pattern of
your past and what's made you the way
you are and and the more colorful your
past is and the more difficult your past
has been and the more kind of you know
messy or chaotic it's been or the more
unique your childhood was the more
you're going to either need someone with
extra ordinary levels of
empathy who can truly just has that
preter natural ability to to see what
you're saying and to connect with it
even though it's not their experience or
you need someone who who kind of gets it
and and that's you know that I think
that's when you know you found something
really special is when you it's like I
again if I could say anything to guys
out there I think
that ends up having to take precedent
over some
egoic pursuit of whatever you've said
you wanted in the past or whatever you
think is the Holy Grail of what you need
to attain in looks or the you know this
or that whatever it is it's who do I
feel the most myself with who do I feel
like I'm home with who makes me feel
more of me like the meest
me and who rewards me the more they know
about me like that's a it's a pretty
great thing to that's like the ultimate
I honestly think there's like nothing
more healing than that I keep using that
word because it just it it may not
relate to some people but it's the best
you know I'm not like everyone should
know I am
not there's nothing about me anyone who
knows me knows I'm not Mr spiritual
I am hyper rational hyper logical
humanist not don't can't like find
myself I I just am not naturally drawn
to anything that feels like you're not
wearing any crystals right now have no C
complete uh complete absence of crystals
in my house but there
there's but I I really think of this as
healing I do I know it's a word used by
a lot of people that you know you may
not relate to out there but I really
think that that's what we're doing and I
think that's one of the best things a
relationship can offer is the you say
that's what we are doing what do you
mean what did I say who's the we that's
what we are doing we're healing I just
don't know who the wi is well I think
that's what that's where happiness lies
for so many of us is
in these things that plague us the the
whatever version of trauma you've been
through whatever ever difficult
experiences you've held on to whatever
wound you're still trying to solve with
every date you go on with someone that
has nothing in common with you but looks
the
part with every extra you
know uh uh $1,000 or $10,000 or $100,000
or a million that you're trying to make
um it there's just there there's
something there for so many of that we
think is is going to get fixed by that
stuff
and that that that work that I'm doing
now that I'm I'm I realize how fortunate
I am to have someone to do that with but
I trust me I would be doing it with or
without this marriage I would you know
for me once I realized like oh there's
stuff going on with me that is just not
going away on its own unless I actually
treat this like my
workouts as I treat it like going to the
gym or any other building a business or
any other part of my life where you
know I need to to get better at this
it's not this is not going to get better
and I also saw like really great guys
around us like our friend LS house like
you know you see people like that who we
were in a meeting with him last year and
a whole bunch of other people and the
number one thing that people were saying
around that table is you seem really
peaceful right now you you know compared
to a couple of years ago you just seem
in this really peaceful place and I
think when you see that around you
especially as a guy and we're not all
you know for a lot of guys it can feel
harder to do that kind of work or to
talk about it or to have the community
to talk about it with when you see a a
person in your life who you value who
you admire and you see them become more
peaceful you want to know what they did
how did you do that and I know he's
doing that same kind of
work we are both the shout and the echo
that is an idea that I think people
would do very well to
internalize I don't know so my advice to
people would be if you go through
something like that where you are
vulnerable with somebody they throw it
back in your face and it sort of breaks
a part of you you do have to do the work
whatever that is exactly to be okay on
your own if nobody is ever able to hold
space for that I think that's very
important to acknowledge that's the
shout but I don't know if you ever
really get to the other side of it you
you can armor up you can callous over it
in fact thinking about it that's exactly
what I would do is just not need anyone
else to hold that space for me to be
able to do it for myself to integrate it
it's a part of me craft a story in my
mind that allows me to have a shameful
thing but not let it Define
me but there is the if you clip out the
last I don't know 15 minutes or whatever
you talking the the way you were making
me feel is exactly why I say that a
relationship a real healthy adult
relationship is the greatest thing that
life has to offer you um
there so uh if there's kids in the room
I can't remember if I said anything
before this point that they should leave
for but now's probably the time uh
relationships are utterly
fascinating and they I think part of the
reason so the one thing that I'm not
sure you and I see exactly the same is I
feel like we're in a cultural soup which
has become my obsession that cultural
soup does some things well and some
things very very poorly and I think that
it is is um modern the modern dating
culture is so catastrophically broken
that even people that are trying not to
get trapped are in many ways getting
trapped but not to derail on that the
thing that I would love people to
understand is okay you need to do that
work you need to be the shout you need
to get tough you need to callous over
those problems uh if you've had some
sort of rejection like that you you need
a a strong base but you don't want to
get to the point where you have so many
layers of armor that you're not able to
reap the benefit of a relationship where
you can also let your guard down where
you and and I say also very
intentionally because I think that part
of the the story that I hope ends up
getting out to men today is that uh you
need to be capable
of I'm going to use hyperbolic words
because they feel better than the more
sedate words but you need to be capable
of
violence I don't mean that literally
sort of but you need to be capable of
great
violence and you need to be capable of
being soft and unguarded with
somebody that has proven that they won't
use your insecurities against you which
is a rule that Lisa and I have in our
marriage which is um you never weaponize
somebody's insecurities against them and
when I say do great violence I I I mean
like to be able to stand your ground
mentally emotionally and physically if
it comes to that but physically is
probably the one in last place given a
modern context but
um intellectually to be able to stand
your ground to know where you're at and
that integrated ho is I think what the
modern male should be striving
towards but understanding that the echo
of how people look you is going to
matter to you whether you want it to or
not so the question becomes how do you
do that artfully like how do
you trust but not
dump uh create intimacies without
overplaying your hand so that you can
build towards something great and this
is going back to where I started the
interview of wanting to understand like
what are
the the bricks that you lay along that
path
because seduction is part of the game
that leads to the final thing where you
have a deep romantic relationship where
you can be vulnerable and all that stuff
but you don't get there if you don't
understand all the steps along the path
and the reason I said if if you have
kits now might be the time to have them
leave a a high functioning relationship
goes from hi my name is Tom to me
putting my penis in very exciting places
to trust and
vulnerability and holding the same space
for them and absorbing their
vulnerabilities and creating space and
helping them reframe what they mean and
really together creating a paradigm by
which you help each other integrate
those parts of
themselves because there is like
you said this and I said this in in sort
of different ways you said Audrey hit
you with a standard but also held the
space for you Lisa told me after hearing
me complain about something over and
over and over that's not sexy right I
think your woman said that's not
attractive I mean it's like it isn't and
so guys need to understand
that there is both you have a
responsibility to deal with that thing
MH
but in a healthy relationship where you
can help each other navigate that where
there's Grace where it doesn't become
you're that guy who did that thing um
it's so complicated that by the way what
you just articulated is exactly what I
meant at the very beginning about the
Paradox
between being accepted for who you are
but who you are being
someone or something a package that is
enough for somebody else yeah and those
two things seem in some way antithetical
because it
feels contradictory to say you should be
accepted for who you are but who you are
has to be
enough but that's the truth the but yes
there's a there's a there's I think it's
I think it's
a I think it's a paradox to be managed I
I I do see it as a as a kind of paradox
and I think all the debate about
people's love lives and people who are
angry at advice because they're like you
just have to be yourself versus the
people who give advice who are like but
wait there really are things you can do
that make you more attractive and that
make you better at this and make you
more competent when it comes to
attraction it's all two sides of that
paradox in each other all the time and I
have such empathy for both because
I'm I I've connect deeply with both I
know for sure there are plenty of things
in my videos over 17 years of making
videos whoa that
are uh purely related to
competence so much so that like I I feel
like if anyone's watching this for the
first time and me for the first time on
this interview they are thinking of me
as the person who talks a lot about
feelings and isn't highly practical in
like strategy out there for people's
love lives but that was my like
DNA my DNA if you go back through my old
videos is about you can do this this
will help you become more attractive
this will change the way you're seen by
other people and and whenever anyone
railed against me and like you just have
to be yourself why are you saying all of
these things I'd be like I would have
every great argument for why that wasn't
true I would always be like what the
reason that you're listening to me right
now the reason that you're even seeing
my video is because I am competent as a
speaker I have learned things that allow
me to deliver a message and an argument
in a certain way with a certain level of
Charisma with a certain level of
uh uh structure and great
metaphor and it's entertaining as well
as
educational all of the competence that I
have built there has helped me to reach
you so when you say about your love life
there's nothing that you need to
learn that to me is the same thing as
you saying to me there's nothing you
need to learn about
presentation it's patently untrue to me
and our love life is one of those areas
where people often think it lives in a
special kind of zone of every other area
of Our Lives we accept that there are
things we can do to get better at them
no one starts you on your first day of
work and you your boss doesn't say to
you just be yourself I'll see you in a
year they say there's things you have to
learn to be able to do this job well
we're going to teach you we're going to
train you because competence is a huge
part of being great at your job not just
confidence or self accept
acceptance um at the same
time I have a fundamental belief that
the right person for us is someone who
accepts where we are on our path right
now that the
person if that idea of if I'd have only
been more advanced I would have held on
to that person if I'd have you know not
been where I was at that time in my life
then it wasn't your person it wasn't the
right person it was someone who met you
at a time in your life where that wasn't
someone who was able to make space for
where you were on your journey if you're
a recovering
alcoholic and you're early in that path
and you meet someone who's like I can't
do
this I you would need to be way further
on your journey for me to be able to
handle you just there's no point
lamenting that that person if I'd have
only been 5 years sober and had more of
a handle on this
that person would have been my perfect
person it wasn't your perfect person the
perfect person for you is the person
that can make space for exactly where
you're at right now that is the puzzle
piece that fits well with their puzzle
piece and I really really believe that I
think it's science fiction to think that
we met the right person at the wrong
time you you in a parallel universe
there's a version of you that was at a
completely different place in your life
and they were a different place in their
and it all worked out not this universe
you wishing for something else is
science fiction you were never I I'm a
bit of a determinist in the way that I
think you know I really don't think I
don't think I this point I'm at in my
life now I don't think I could have got
there any sooner I don't think there was
anything that I I maybe if the right
Mentor had come along in a different
moment maybe that would have nudged me
on a different track and that would have
end I would have ended up somewhere
different but everything that's happened
to me has meant that I am where I am
today I fundamentally believe that and
that I I take I take a lot of comfort in
that you know I find that to be a good
recipe for self forgiveness because I I
do just look at it and go I if I could
have done better I would have done
better this is that's as good as I could
do my best might have been tragic but
that was the best I could do at that
time and my best is better today thank
God and
and you know the the the right person
for me is the person that sees where I
am today and says
okay
so that those seem like contradictory
ideas but to me they're they're they
have to we have to find a way to fit
them together that doesn't mean that's
not our mandate to stay the same forever
it's still it it contains the
possibility of being better of of
showing up differently and think that we
can show up differently with the right
person too I think that's another thing
that makes someone the right person I
think that the way Audrey connected with
my
insecurity and the way she made me feel
safe in the relationship made me even
more confident in the relationship so I
am a sexier version of myself who's more
secure but a big part of that is because
she has helped me be secure because of
the safety that she brings to the
relationship if she was someone who
lived her life in a way that con stantly
made me feel unsafe because of the ways
that she was acting with other people
and the ways that she was you know the
the kinds of texts she was sending out
on her phone and the way she was like
then I might not I might not be the same
level of confidence that I am right now
but the way she feeds into that
confidence also helps me be the
confident person that she finds sexy and
attractive so like that's also part and
parcel of I found someone who fits well
with me how many people are in a
relationship with where they feel unsafe
and insecure all the time and they're
internalizing that and making it about
themselves but they're just in a
relationship that fundamentally makes
them feel unsafe and insecure all the
time
so so it's a dance it is always a dance
between those two things
um yeah why do people stay in
relationships that make them feel unsafe
and insecure
a number of reasons I think scarcity I'm
never going to find anything else I'm
never going to find anyone better Praise
Jesus if if they make you feel unsafe
and insecure why would you want to find
anybody else I don't understand well
because I I don't think we're focusing
on our happiness we're focusing on the
thing that we think is going to make us
feel worthy and the thing that's going
to make us feel Worthy is holding on to
this person if I can get this person if
I can get their approval if I can make
them happy if I can make them love me if
I can hold on to them and not have them
dump me then that will make me feel
enough but when we're doing that we're
not focusing on our happiness we're just
focusing on what we think might make us
feel like we're enough so we fight and
fight and fight yeah this this is crazy
to me crazy so but maybe you're very in
touch with with what makes you feel good
and and you gravitate towards that yes
but I'm I am coming more and more to the
realization that people just have to
have rules in their lives and people
don't have rules and so they find
themselves in a situation like that I
have a rule in my life I would never
stay in a relationship that made me feel
worse about myself that that does not
make sense that doesn't compute for me
so um do you have
rules yeah oh yeah I mean for me that I
wouldn't I wouldn't be in a relationship
that didn't make me feel more peaceful
like that peace became a really
important word for me especially because
I'd lived a life where you know i' I'd
experienced a lot of Chaos in my life
for a very long time and you know came
from a lot of chaos
and it for me feeling it stopped being
important for me to
find spikes in life I I was like I I
need to feel safe I need to feel like
what who I'm with is creating a peaceful
existence with me so that for me became
my like kind of my North Star it didn't
mean I didn't want passion I for sure
wanted passion I'm a passionate person
so I couldn't be in a relationship where
there wasn't passion but if it was
passionate without
peace there's no there's no way for me
it I could have been in another
relationship like that um and that and
that's to me that's the Sol what you
just said is the solution actually that
chapter I have on rewire your brain the
first two steps in that are make change
necessary because you don't need to
believe that you can get better or that
that you can find someone better you
just need to believe that you can never
do this again like I just can't it's too
painful you know when people when people
um stop being with a certain kind of
person it's often not that they've
become more confident it's just that
they know for sure that this kind of
person makes my life miserable so if you
if you connect with that and how
miserable it's made you in the past then
you will naturally say no to that in the
future if you deeply connect to it and
the second thing is you have to choose
what's most important to you going
forward what's the thing that I can't
live without and usually a good question
to ask yourself is what did I not have
in my last relationship that despite how
important I was making that relationship
not having that thing made me utterly
miserable and it could have been loyalty
it could have been empathy it could have
been kindness it could have been a a
teammate whatever it was that thing now
has to become the really important thing
CU you know that no matter how much you
are attracted to someone or no matter
how much how important you think someone
is or how much you want them if you
don't have that thing you're still
miserable it's still hell in the
relationship so you start to prioritize
that thing and you say it's not the only
thing I need but if I don't have this
Nothing Else Matters and that's what
that's like a rule as you would say that
secures a future of either not having
someone or or a future of having people
who actually bring you the things that
you want and then you have to be
prepared to communicate that path but
that goes into the whole rest of the
chapter but that's that's
that's really really important because
if you don't Define that going in this
isn't the like writing your ideal
partner checklist this is what's the
thing I can't live
without and if I know what that is then
that has to be the The Benchmark that
has to be like the price of entry for
any relationship in my life going
forward and that will eliminate 90% of
the wrong relationships for you right
after that God man I really want to know
so women that end up putting six figures
six inches six pack abs and six feet
tall it's like okay that's whatever 3%
of the population I'm so curious to know
like when people put down the I need
this this this even though they're not
things you're going to put into a dating
app like how much does that narrow the
field as I'm sitting here talking to you
I'm like oh man I wish you were ugly cuz
if you were ugly I want to see like how
much of this stuff would survive VI you
being like just
unattractive
because there are I'm I'm with you man
but the thing I worry about all the time
is that the only real gatekeeper is
intelligence and that everything else is
like decoration on if you're smart
enough like you will figure it out dude
Einstein was not exactly a good-look guy
I don't think he was tall but
I mean he had I hate to say it but he
had extramarital Affairs like he did not
have a hard time with women
and yeah like how I'm trying to put my
black pill hat on for a minute do you
know black pill no what's the
distinction between okay so red pill is
like the world Works a different way
than you're being told you're being sold
to bill of goods let me tell you what
women are really like let me tell you
what the world's really like you need to
hold frame make these [ __ ] submit
that's red pill going to hate that but
that's I think that's pretty good uh
black pill is bro you you can be so ugly
or so short or so whatever you're just
[ __ ] you're going to be alone forever
just take your black pill and [ __ ]
deal with it there there's nothing you
can do nothing you're done finished oh
so red pill is more like train your body
yeah you got this get rich get jacked
got it got it and Black's you can do
facts so
so when you lay out like the the journey
that I really want to take guys on
because I haven't even laid out for you
yet my most terrifying hypothesis which
we're going to get to by the way for
everyone out there watching this this is
not like Tom's hypotheses are not this
isn't like my first encounter with them
like we will be at dinner and I will Tom
will be like here's my hypothesis and I
will be very very entertained and
terrified listening to it so if this is
a new one that I haven't experienced
over dinner I'm excited you won't have
heard it put this succinctly because I
don't think I had it this succinct until
recently uh but going back to the um how
do people build from I'm bitter I'm
angry I'm resentful I'm in this
horrendous cultural soup that I'm in
right now um I have an antagonistic
sense of women but I want to get to that
point where you're talking about being V
vable um having an integrated
relationship being able to hold that
kind of space for each other that thing
I said where you you created this
feeling in that like 15ish minute
segment where you were able to make me
feel in real time the very thing that
makes relationships worth all the
sacrifice and all that but how do you go
from uh I feel invisible which is
something I wanted to get back to that
you said multiple times for men and
women I feel invisible I don't know how
to do the
dance yeah I'd love to f filter people
out that aren't good for me but bro I'm
invisible do you have like what are
those steps that you walk people through
where they can get to like if this is
maso's hierarchy and the the part that
we just went through is sort of
self-actualization at the very tippy top
like how do we go through some of those
base ones in order to get there well I
look I think there's a couple of things
firstly in terms of how do I not how how
can I not be
invisible
what's there's almost like the obvious
things that are so obvious as to be
boring like I really I it makes no sense
not to do the best you can with what you
have looks wise right go to the gym go
take a shower shave exact smell good you
know like it's it is interesting
that people neglect to do some of the
things that truly anyone can do like
truly if you can smell good but you
don't smell good like that you can
change and if you are unshaven and you
could groom then groom if you can get
I'm not talking about expensive clothes
but if you can just get an an outfit
that's put
together go on Instagram and just look
look at people who are putting their
clothes together well and then go out
and get a very cheap version of that and
put it together well it's extraordinary
how much none of us would notice that
what you're wearing is the cheap version
of that um those things are just worth
doing and I always think it's miraculous
how much we can actually
impact the way we
look
so there's that and there's you know I'm
a big I'm a big believer in
training working out and working out I'm
a big believer because I your shoulders
confirm that well that's a I'm someone
who doesn't obsess with working out but
like for me the psychological benefits
outweigh the aesthetic benefits all day
long facts the way it makes me proud of
myself the way it makes me
feel energized or feel like I can attack
other difficult things in my life having
done that I haven't worked out in the
last like 5 days it's been like podcasts
and running around I was going to say
you've really Let Yourself Go
disgusting wait till you ass at the End
of This Book launch um but my you know
our moms my or's moms are in town and
it's just been like one thing too many
and and for sure I feel worse for having
not done that and when I say that's over
5 days and I look at someone who hasn't
worked out in the last 5 years and their
diet is terrible what that will be doing
to that person's psychology is profound
and I'm not this isn't me saying
everyone needs to be some kind of
CrossFit like killing yourself type it's
not that it's just movement what that
does for us psychologically I think is
profound and I I feel
like I've said this before I don't know
if I mean it or not but I I you'll get
the point I really feel like every coach
or therapist should be like go work out
for a week every day and then come back
and tell me about what's bothering you
because what bothers us is different
through the lens of I'm moving my body
yeah get sleep get sunlight work out and
eat right don't don't lament over
anything not depression not anxiety not
dating until you've done that cuz I
can't trust myself when I'm not doing
something physical not only that if you
have control of your body you have
control of your mind if you don't have
control of your mind you are never going
to succeed in dating it is way too
complicated yeah so yeah preach I I I'm
I'm such a believer in that so I think
that not not again not trying to promote
like everyone should be this body type
just just the psychological side of it
if nothing else um I you know is it
Jordan Peterson who talks about making
your bed and cleaning your room and
doing that I believe in that I I I feel
in Ely better the moment I make my space
nice how dare you it's the one thing I
respond violently to is what like
tidying cleaning your or making your bed
I think is a Fool's errand but I don't
want to deriz on that I get your point
no but are you like that with your desk
space and with other spaces as well you
just don't care everything has to be in
a knowable position that's the only
thing that matters as long as you know
where everything is the problem is I'm
married to a person that hides
everything that [ __ ] winds me up it is
the biggest point of friction in my
marriage after 21 years I I so then this
clearly isn't prescriptive but I I or
mass prescriptive but I find just having
a handle on my space if if my space is
chaotic I am like psychologically I'm
not in as good of a space as I can be my
wife agrees with you she is you might
but it might be like a my my wife thinks
you're a
genius legitimately she's like I think
Tom's a genius she needs to see someone
and and it might be like one of those
genius things you know like you just if
you ever watch Sherlock Holmes and his
stuff's everywhere and he's the genius
but he's like a sort of there's a
romantic there's a romantic notion of
like genius is just having books
everywhere and everything's in like
nothing's where it should be pure
laziness I just need to know where
things are I'm I'm an efficiency freak
freak it causes problems right yeah yeah
yeah well you do take that to its like
extreme yes to a pathological extreme I
would say for any normal human being
tidy your space and and get things in
order cuz I do think it makes a
difference to our psychology and also by
the way imagine that tomorrow someone
was coming to your place imagine an hour
from now someone was showing up at your
apartment or your house are you
proud do you like what they're going to
see and if the answer is no then there's
already some
unconscious subconscious like you know
you're going out on a date tonight and
if that person for came back with you
you would be embarrassed by what they
see there's an in congruency there that
needs to be addressed it should be that
someone can show up an hour from now and
you feel like you're well
represented so I think that's an
important thing I do believe that having
a sense of purpose in
life that makes you connected to
something that means whatever result you
get out there today in your love life
there it feels like there's something as
important going on in your life or
there's something happening in your life
that you're making creating learning
about investing in that that really
connects you to life to a sense of
purpose that you feel like you're doing
something meaningful you do feel like
you're doing something on some level
that's important at least you can
connect what you're doing to something
important and that you feel that because
that's like a lot of the reasons we're
constantly claing after these things
that will give us status is because we
haven't connected to we haven't made our
life no matter how small our life is we
haven't made it big in our mind and I
really believe that people have
to you you have to connect to what's
great about your life or what's big
about your life there's a there's a
um a in a man for all seasons there's a
moment
where I think it's S Thomas Moore is
talking to Richard Rich and Richard Rich
is like this aspiring like he's trying
to like get ahead and he really wants to
have status and Power in court and and
so Thomas Moore says to him um why not
be a teacher you you'd be I think he
says you'd be an excellent teacher and
then so Richard Rich says but who would
know and he says um you your pupils God
not a bad
public and I I can think back to
situations in my life where it felt like
someone had a very big life and it was
in comparison it felt like oh my life is
small and my life feels insignificant
and very quickly you can
devalue the things that you bring to the
table or the meaning in what you do if
you look after a sick your sick mother
or you're someone who handles dementia
patients like you you you live a big
life in your way stay connected to your
life stay connected to what you're doing
because then no one can come along and
intimidate you just because they have
more or they've done more or because it
seems like on the surface they they have
a shinier life it's not just about
finding creating a sense of purpose in
your life it's about connecting to the
purpose and the meaning in the things
you already do so that no one can come
along and intim you and make you feel
like what you're doing isn't important
that that to me is
like if you don't so much of life is
connection
connect to what's important about what
you do who you
are you can have everything in this
life and your life will still be never
big enough if you don't connect to that
and you're still always looking over
your shoulder at someone else who's
doing something bigger or better or
comparing yourself to somebody else um
and when someone does really connect to
the importance of their life there's
something very very attractive about
that when you you could be someone who
lives the biggest life in the world and
then you come across someone who it
looks on the surface like their world is
much much
smaller but man are they connected to
what they
do do they love it I think this is
really important for people to
understand I once made a woman orgasm
I didn't know that was going to be the
start of the next sentence from
something that I said to her the night
before it was weird it was so like oh my
God she had never seen me be passionate
before and I clicked over like the night
before and like got really passionate it
was the first time she'd ever seen it
and then the next morning we had sex and
she had an orgasm for the first time and
I was like this isn't about this moment
this is about last night I was like holy
[ __ ] because I was connected to what I
was doing and all that and I was
conveying it it's very interesting now
let me paint a picture for
you
you're playing video games all day
except for when you're checking in on
your only fans uh subscriptions okay and
uh you're spending a serious amount of
quality time with
pornography um
you um are taking advice from Andrew ate
and your place is a mess so somebody
rolls up and that's what they walk into
does that person need to tell themselves
a better story about the things that
they're doing or does that person need
to
change what they're doing I suppose I
might start by asking that
person who is it that you would like to
attract like
what's paint me a picture of the kind of
person you
want and I would be
surprised if the picture they painted
was the equivalent of them in the other
gender that would be very surprising to
me if I if they
wanted I would try to I would try to
focus on the kind of person they would
like to
attract and then point out
the in congruencies between the way
they're living their life and the way
that person is living their life
um because that would say a lot because
you can't what you cannot do is expect
to attract someone who
is
uh playing on a different level than you
in the way that they are approaching
their
life that's you you know you have to be
willing to do the thing that you expect
from somebody
else
so and and by the way it might even be
that let's just say the
person at the Baseline the person you
want to attract wants to be with someone
who is proud of themselves or takes
pride in themselves if you don't if you
can honestly tell me that you truly take
pride
in the lifestyle you live
in the way you're getting up each day
and the way you're playing out each
day if you truly feel not comfortable if
you feel pride in it if you feel proud
of
yourself and you feel like this
is this is you taking care of
yourself then okay this is a different
conversation it might be a we might have
to have a reality check on how many
people are going to be like you might be
a real small
Niche for people but at least you're
coming from that place but if the place
you're coming from is deep down I have
so much shame around the way I live my
life I really don't like myself I hate
myself in fact I do not I am not taking
care of myself
then that you have to start from a place
of the person that I attract deserves to
have someone one who is taking care of
themselves who
is proud of themselves there's a there's
a there's a part of the book that I feel
like is is relevant to this because love
life by Matthew Hy love life how to
raise your standards find your person
and live happily no matter what that's
good there's a um there's a chapter
called core
confidence where I talk about
self-love
and if I suppose I start with how much
of a problem I have with the way self-
Lov
is portrayed as a message because I
think it
is maybe you're like this I don't know
we'll see I but
I the self-love the the model for self-
Lov did not work for me agreed did not
work for me it didn't make sense to
me um it felt like my intelligence just
dismantled it
immediately and it I would do this with
audiences in real time I would say to
audiences why should you love
yourself because I would want to
externalize the dialogue that was going
on in my head with the audience I'd say
why should you love yourself cuz we're
all being told love yourself you've got
to love yourself that's the key that's
the great key if you want a great love
life if you want confidence if you want
to you've got to love yourself and say
to audience is why should you love
yourself people would pause for a few
seconds cuz often they're not that's not
like a thing that people say people say
love yourself run a bubble bath light a
candle give you you know like but no no
no no why someone would say because we
deserve it and I'd
go okay
why and they'd say the people would
pause for a minute and they go they say
well
because I'm a good person because I'm
kind because I do a lot for my family
because I'm empathetic or any of those
things and when I would hear that all I
would hear is you just switched to
needing to find
traits in yourself or behaviors that
made you
lovable there's a problem here first
what about the days where you're not
kind
what about the days where you're selfish
what about the days where you said a
mean thing and you hurt someone's
feelings what about the times in your
life where you have deep regret about
the way you behaved or
acted do you not deserve love on those
days people wouldn't know how to answer
and I say and even when you're being
those things that you say make you
worthy of self-love what about when
someone walks into the room who's better
at those
things are they more worthy of love than
you and people would go uh and then
someone would say something like well we
should love ourselves because we're
special I say but why are you special
isn't everyone
special yes well then no one special
like what does special mean in that
context and even if you say I'm special
it's still a kid can come home yeah from
getting picked last for
basketball and and say to their parent I
I I got picked last I feel awful and the
parent says but you're so special yeah
but I still got picked last for
basketball the kid parent says well the
parent often switches well but you're so
smart you're so
intelligent but at some point that
intelligent kid who maybe now validates
herself on being intelligent goes to
some IV league university and sits in a
room at Harvard and suddenly doesn't
feel that intelligent anymore they are
surrounded by people at that level of
intelligence and so now they're into
comparison mode and feeling like they're
not enough again and oh my reason for
loving myself is
evaporating
so I would
say this idea that we have to find these
reasons to love ourselves
is actually kind of broken and it almost
follows like a romantic model of how we
love we find someone with great
qualities or great traits and we fall in
love with them but the problem with that
kind of love is it doesn't work on
ourselves we fall in love with someone
because there's a sense of mystery and
there's a kind of space between us and
we want to close it down and so we we
fall in love and we get closer and
closer and closer and by the way what
what's that famous phrase that people
say about long-term relationships if
you're not careful familiarity breeds
contempt and a lot of long-term
relationships fail because two people
become so familiar with each other that
they take each other for granted and
they know all of each other's flaws and
they stop seeing the good and they focus
on the bad and now they have contempt
and now they break up well if
familiarity breeds contempt who would
you have more contempt for than the
person you have spent every second of
your life with until
now what in your relationship with
yourself what emotion what other emotion
is there even room
for by that logic so you say okay
then what does it mean to love myself on
what basis should I love
myself I am not you know narcissists in
Greek mythology looked in a pool of
water and immediately fell in love with
himself we the rest of us mere mortals
are we can't even seem to find the
ability to like ourselves a lot of us
let alone love
ourselves so why should you love
yourself I believe that selflove needs a
Rebrand and we need a completely
different model for it the Romantic
model doesn't work so what's the other
model I would start looking at the
parent child relationship and almost
imagining asking and I did ask a bunch
of parents this why should you love your
child or why do you love your child and
almost no parents in response to that
question start giving you a list of
traits of their child or how they did at
school this week they're not giving you
a report card you say why do you love
your child and the parent says what are
you what are you talking about because
they're my
child because it's my son because that's
my
daughter people are like that with their
pets
too right it's like you said to someone
why do you why do you love your pet what
do it's my pet if you said to someone
with the there are some ugly dogs if you
walk down the street and you see someone
with a really ugly dog and it is just
missing 3/4 of its fur and it's got no
teeth and its tongue is hanging out and
it just looks like barely alive if you
walk up to that person and say do you
want to exchange your dog for a more
handsome stately dog that person will
look at you like you're insane what are
you talking about this is my dog if you
look at a child with their stuffed toy a
child is like that with their stuffed
toy you try exchanging a child's like
stuffed rabbit for a bed of rabbit
that's
stitched up and looks great they won't
have it this is my rabbit so when I
started looking at those relationships
it was very clear to me there's a
different kind
of relationship at
play and that for me started to change
the way that I saw love with myself so I
would look at myself and go Oh in the
same way that someone with their child
would say I love my child because
they're my child they're mine
I am actually mine I am my
human maybe someone had to rais me for a
few years and for any of us the person
who raised you may or may not have done
a good job but it was their job to Usher
you into a phase of your life where you
came to realize that the person who had
custody for this human was
you and when you realize that you say
comparison makes no sense with other
people I can't exchange this human for
another human I just have this one human
and I have one job that's it one job
take care of this human give this human
the best life you can give this human
that's it I don't need to believe I'm
special I don't need to think that I
have anything special going for me you
don't think that when you have a child
you just think my job is to give this
human the best life I can give it and
the same is true for ourselves we're 1
in8 billion trying to believe you're
special and one 8 billion is almost
impossible right but I can believe that
I'm the only one in this 8 billion
people on this Earth who has this
relationship with this human no one else
has the job of looking after this human
it is solely my job and if
I'm watching porn every day listening to
mentors that that spit hate and just
talk to me about things that pollute my
brain playing video games for 12 hours a
day um subscribing to only fans eating
poorly not taking care of myself then I
am sleeping on the one job I have in
this
world which is to take care of this
human you're your human so the next time
someone says to you why do you love
yourself you can it's like the response
internally is because I'm
mine and that when I look at it through
that lens and think of that
person I and this it goes to the heart
of
the the argument to me for men and women
is we if we are not careful the trap in
life is I'm going to fall into all of
into an incessant
complaining about my lot about what I
didn't get about what I wasn't blessed
with about how easy other people have it
compared to me about how poorly people
treat me and all of that is sleeping on
the
job because your your job is not to
judge the ingredients you have your job
is just to give that human the best life
you can possibly give that
human and if you do that if you start
approaching your life that way that is a
the deepest source of confidence
confidence you can possibly have by the
way it doesn't mean you like yourself
you don't have to like yourself to love
yourself it turns loving yourself into a
verb instead of a noun loving myself
doesn't have to be a feeling I don't
have to feel love towards myself loving
myself is an
approach it's what am I doing to take
care of this human today because it's my
job it's my responsibility to take care
of this human today the liking yourself
part by the way can come later I think
of that like you you think of raising
kids where it's like after 8 years you
might see the majority of the fruits of
that labor where that kid starts to
recognize all of the things you did for
them when they were a child but they
didn't recognize it at the time that can
be the same in your relationship with
yourself you love yourself today worry
about liking yourself
later and and when we do that I believe
that we will naturally become more
attractive we will naturally start to do
the things that make us more
attractive and and start to get us
noticed by a kind of person that may be
didn't notice us until now but but when
you're not taking care of yourself when
you are sleeping on the one job you have
in this
world and then resentful that someone
else isn't showing up for you there is a
a fundamental disconnect about what your
job is in this
world I likeed that answer a
lot I like that answer a lot more than I
expected to um when you started thought
yeah I bet we see this the same way I'm
glad you said that it's different than
liking yourself I'd say it's different
than respecting
yourself which is how I've always come
at it that you have to earn your own
respect yep uh which means you have to
decide what you think is worthy of
respect and then actually do those
things but love
yourself as a verb as an approach
because you're the only human you get I
really like that that's really
good okay I have
a terrible hypothesis I would like to
lay out for you I'm so excited about
that I want to see what you think do you
know I've please every time Audrey comes
like because Audrey will come and visit
you will come and visit
Lisa and like that she just will come
home to me at the end of spending time
with Lisa at your house
going I'm really really
anxious and it will always be because at
some point during her time with Lisa see
where this is going you like maybe you
were on just like a little break from
you
know just crushing some project in a
different part of the house and you'll
come like just for a little kitchen
break or something you'll walk through
the room you'll drop a
grenade about like the end of the world
or something awful that's going to
happen something apocalyptic something
dystopian
and then you will leave yeah but I'm the
one who feels the effects of what you
have done yeah sorry about that I you
don't keep Audrey for the night she
comes back to me while I'm trying to
sleep and she now can't sleep because
you have made her feel like it's all
coming to some terrible end I liked it
it's always delivered with a smile and a
laugh I I want to be clear apparently
not but I always tell Lisa it's
dangerous to have me come and say hello
when you're having a girl's evening but
uh apparently she she does not realize
that I'm sending people home with a
massive amount of anxiety here's what
I'm worried about okay uh there
is the pill was invented in whatever
1965 gives women complete Freedom over
their
reproduction amazing I got to take huge
advantage of that in the early days of
my marriage when I could not have been
more paranoid at one point I was wearing
condoms and Lisa was on birth control
because I was just like ah and we were
married so uh that was very grateful for
that that combined with um I mean now
this starts really getting complicated
but you go off the gold standard and now
you start to get inflation because the
Dollar's not pegged anything women have
to go into the workforce post-world War
II it was like yeah obviously they can
do it they had to do it while men were
away so you they now can because they
can control pregnancy they've proven
that they'll be effective social Moray
begin to change people realize oh my God
women are amazing they hey men women
like in intelligence actually isn't
evenly distributed but in the sort of
meat of the bell curve you're going to
find just an unimaginable amount of
hyper intelligent incredibly capable
women as it turns out for people keeping
score you get more men on the genius and
more men on the [ __ ] and I mean that
literally um so women are just a little
more tightly compacted
but so they do incredibly well in school
because they're higher in
conscientiousness uh they do great in
the workforce because they're higher in
conscientiousness um so now all a sudden
uh there was a study that came out I
forget what year that shows um women
under 30 that have no kids actually make
6 or 8% more than men their male counter
parts and it's even more pronounced in
New York I think it was 16 or 17% in La
it's 12% two other major cities were 14%
so anyway it's just women are really
beginning to crush
it the catch is that women are
hypergamous so they date over and up so
they want women that make as much money
as them or more than them they want men
as intelligent as them or more
intelligent and Men now are feeling if
I'm right that you need only make a man
feel powerful in order to um get him in
a good place they're not feeling more
powerful and I threw out the um the sort
of directional stats from earlier that
when a woman earns more than the man
there's more likely to be domestic abuse
more likely to be erectile dysfunction
higher rates of divorce higher rates of
female dissatisfaction it just literally
goes on and on uh so now you are
creating an environment where every step
of the way I'm like that's amazing for
women that they have control of their
reproduction that is literally amazing
that they are doing so well in the
workforce that is literally amazing as
somebody who employs incredibly gifted
women that have helped me build an
incredible company I could not be more
grateful to women being in the workforce
and yet it's creating a problem where
you get as women are becoming fierce
Independent Women and I know because I'm
married to one uh that don't need a man
and men need to be needed in order to
feel powerful we have created the
ultimate Cyclone of problems and I don't
know the way out of that because if a
woman doesn't want to have kids she
truly does not need a man mhm now there
are two options that I can see before us
three one shall shove the genie back in
the bottle tralize every women don't
want to have kids they don't need a man
they literally don't need a man the
government will keep but they want a man
yes now you're getting into the problem
so you're you go girl you don't need a
man do your thing climb the ladder and
then they're and I wish I had this study
I don't know if I'm making this up but
I'm pretty sure that there is a study
out there that says the most unhappy
women
are lawyers over 35 female lawyers over
and that makes sense that to me is just
running that rat race as somebody who
has to in my own life constantly
recontextualize why I do what I do to
reconnect emotionally to it but I just
have a literal pathological ambition uh
and I don't use the word pathological on
accident
so I women would not be optimized for
that from a from an evolutionary
standpoint so I get why at 35 a
percentage of course this is a bell
curve and of course there are women like
my own wife that exist that that just
isn't their call I get it I'm closer to
that than I think people realize um but
anyway it becomes this cocktail of yes
they don't need a man but they want a
man but for a lot of people the cultural
narrative is such that they shouldn't
want a man so there's like weirdness
around that um
so anyway there's three things that I
see before us you can try to shove the
genie back in the bottle by um taking
more promoting a more traditional
lifestyle which mark my [ __ ] words is
coming it's going to come like an
avalanche people are already seeing the
tip of that spear but that [ __ ] is going
to be a cacophony in three years I just
promise you uh and then uh option number
two is for um men to just become more
powerful suck it up [ __ ] get
better
I think they should but I think they
will hit a point where there's just only
so many of them that can be equal or
better than women that are just thriving
in the system uh so the ones that can
should everybody should Max 100% 100% uh
and then the third one is basically um
women want less from your men
or women don't try to become as badass
help what the [ __ ] do we do or or am I
just completely delusional I think
you're off and the reason I think you're
off is because even if that Trend
reaches that
place I don't
I I refute the idea
that men can't are incapable of handling
women doing
interesting things or being more
successful than them on certain metrics
like the status in their job or money
what do you think is in the data then
that's coming out that says it creates a
host of problems including the women
being more dissatisfied I I don't know I
can't speak to it I just I look around
me and I see so many people who are in
my life that can point to where the
women in their life are on paper more
successful where they are higher up the
hierarchy in their company where they
earn more and these are
not as you know if the kind of red pill
Community would have us believe that
these are some kind of like beta
pushover type guys who are just have
just latched on to a successful woman
and don't have any self-respect they are
the complete opposite they
are incredibly secure and they are more
than secure enough to be like she's
killing it and that's great I'm doing my
thing and I'm happy with that they're
also not people making zero money
they're not people who are just like I
haven't got a job and she goes out and
pays the bills and whatever they're
they're just guys that aren't doing in
those terms the same
as the woman they with so I just just
the the data is interesting it's not
what I'm
seeing um I Do by the way I do think
that there is an
interesting there's a discussion to be
had about the way that when women go on
dates how if you know I I'm the person
who gets the woman coming to me saying I
intimidate Everyone by the way that's
not all women but there's often people
who will raise their hand and say
everyone says I'm intimidating now if a
few people say you're intimidating
that's one thing if everyone finds you
intimidating that I think is interesting
information because there I think there
is something in the way that you are
connecting with people where you're not
going into to truly connect you're going
into to impress or
to control or show how ACC you are and
you're kind of wearing all of that all
the time um some of the most successful
people I know are not intimidating
because they make people really feel at
home and they make other people feel
interesting so I think we have to
question it what we're doing that makes
everyone intimidated but that's a
different conversation but I do think
that's a important conversation to have
um no by the way no different to the guy
who on every date finds a way to mention
you know his Ferrari or his job or you
know how highflying he is it's it's the
same
deal
um but I refute the idea that men aren't
capable of dating a a woman who's doing
more than
them I also think that many men who
think they have an issue with that are
adaptable and will adapt and will have
to adapt to the fact that they're with
really interesting people who are doing
really great things and they will have
to find the source it's not that they
will have to give up on feeling powerful
it's that they will have to find the
source of their power in other things
it's a it's there is a little bit of a
like I don't know it's a it's a bit of a
like heavy-handed approach that we've
always relied on as men to having power
that I I don't think I think when we're
forced to adapt to find power in other
ways
we will find power in other
ways um and I don't think that women's
need for men or a partner
um is not is going anywhere I I don't
think that when if a woman decides I
don't want kids I don't think she's
about to say and I also don't want this
thing that there is such a human drive
for which is love and companionship and
connection I don't think that is going
anywhere so my feeling is that men will
men I think men are having to adapt I
really do I think like us men are kind
of having to grow up we are not the the
like things that used to make us
impressive are not nearly as impressive
anymore like we are having to adapt to
that
already and it's not enough that like
I'm the I'm the one who does the big
complicated job and you don't understand
it and I come home and oh what is silly
comment you just made silly woman I've
got a complicated job and you don't
understand it and I'm the man of the
house and I bring home the money and
like that was a really easy way to get
validation and men are finding it less
easy to get validation in all of those
ways that they constructed it before so
I think that they already are having to
get used to a world where their
validation has to come from other things
has to come from the the strength of
character they have it has to come from
the strength of mind they have from the
way they make their partner feel the way
they show up for their partner like
guess it's not enough that you bring
home money for
food and that's a good thing and it will
I I see that Trend just continuing where
women are in their
power where men don't have to raise
their game by being by making more money
and getting more status so that they can
stay like on top so to speak but that
they just
simply reorganize where their sense of
worth comes
from in the context of a relationship
and that I think would be a fantastic
thing because my life got
better when I stopped basing my worth in
my relationship on these things and by
the way my life also got better when I
found someone who didn't base my worth
in those things and made me feel
powerful in other ways like the the way
that I am here with you now or
communicating or the way I'm passionate
about my work or the things that I get
excited about the way I show up in my
life and I'm strong with my family those
are things that are really attractive to
my wife now there will be there will
always be someone who says oh yeah and
the fact that you're doing really well
in life and blah blah blah it but I
don't that jawline doesn't hurt Matthew
tell you right now but it's it's I don't
I all the more reason by the way if
you're a person who says I don't have
the joy line I don't have the status I
don't have the thing then you better
develop power in other ways do you you
you better there's no there's no other
option you better find your sense of
worth and your your the source of your
power in other ways and I I look at
people in this life like I I look at you
know echart
toll and I'm like that's a powerful
person like he I don't look at him he's
not a
stereotypically like Mr alpha
male you know looks the part has the
body has no he does not tick those boxes
in that
way but I see him as a incredibly
powerful man I think what he's done for
himself makes him incredibly compelling
what has achieved in his mind and the
way he uh the peace that he's found
within himself and the way he's able to
like he's not even the way you he's not
even like traditionally charismatic like
it's not if you first listen to him
speak it's like wait people listen to
this person for like s hours this he
talks at a snail's pace he leaves giant
silences where he says nothing
thing and he's kind of got an odd way
about him and
yet people are
Spellbound when he sits there and he
talks and it's because he has found some
other source of power than the ones that
the rest of us are clamoring after
thinking that that's what's going to
give us our significance I I think that
people find a way and men will find men
will have to find a way increasingly
to build other
muscles and I think that will be good
for their
Consciousness maybe there's a period of
you know rebellion and fighting against
that and I think when the trend
continues eventually people start
adapting and using other muscles and
women will also have to use other
muscles they they will have to the the
ones that are overly focused on
what I would think of as
more I'm afraid to use the word
superficial at this stage but you
know when they're looking at those kind
of external markers of success or
whatever it may be which I again I
refute the idea that all women are
looking for that I think that there's
plenty of women that are just attracted
to someone who's interesting in
charismatic and they truly have no a
guy's status or where is in the food
chain of a corporation or a business or
whatever has absolutely no bearing on
who they're choosing as a partner and I
see that again there's nothing that that
those communities can tell me that takes
away my knowledge of how many women I
know are with really interesting men who
do not do as well as them in those ways
so the idea that and and actually do
absolutely are not the provider in the
relationship financially in that way way
they provide but not nearly as much as
she does and I just I can't I can't
ignore how many of those people that I
know um but the women that do keep
focusing on those other things I think
they will also inevitably have to start
seeing the value in people in other
ways and that will be an adaptation for
them too so that would be my perhaps
more optimistic take is that if the
trend you're talking about is true and
if it goes to the extreme that you're
talking about um people will develop
different muscles and I think that's
it's already being proven that they are
this conversation like you and I having
a uh conversation about
feelings and healing and granted most of
it's coming from me on that side but we
would not have been having this
conversation
for men 20 years ago
like the number of men who are actually
starting to connect
with therapy their feelings wanting to
be more vulnerable wanting to figure out
their stuff wanting to be introspective
or wanting to become more
self-aware that is already a tremendous
shift to me that's a tremendous
adaptation that our fathers were not
a part of most of our fathers unless
they lived in certain parts of
California you know but most of them
were not it was a world away from the
where they were the fact that we have
men talking the fact you have Shan
Strickland talking to Theo vaugh about
his trauma as a child and crying on a
podcast with Theo Theo Von and he is one
of the most Savage people on
Earth that's that's an
adaptation and and I think when you
apply that across the board we we're
already seeing
men view themselves differently derive
their worth from other places I think
that so many of the communities are are
kind of
like almost preaching a kind of
regression of that but I don't think
that that regression is going to win out
I think that the general I and I hope I
hope to be a part of the opposite I hope
to be someone out there who can
encourage people
to um to embrace those
adaptations and and I'm well aware like
I you know I don't know who I I think I
feel like I did a podcast somewhere
before and it had a male audience and it
was like there was a decent amount of
red pill type comments in there and it
was good easy for you know here we what
do they call them Chads is it Chads
Chads yeah you know here oh I'm really
going to take advice from this Chad
about how and I'm
like okay I can I promise you my like
you're not if you're saying that about
me you're not giving credit to how
strong my mind is you you have
underestimated me if that if you're
reducing the way I think
to advantages that you see me
having you fundamentally have
misunderstood how powerful of a person I
am how powerful my mind is you have
fundamentally misunderstood what a
Survivor I
am and and you also don't know anything
about my
life so it's okay if you're not ready to
hear that voice or frankly if you need
it from someone else that's okay too
find someone who's saying the exact same
things as me who doesn't have those
advantages or comes in a package that
you find credible do that please do that
I don't
it doesn't I my audience is the is
majority women I have every year I have
an all female
Retreat
so but if I if that's not enough find
someone who is saying the same things
that's in an acceptable package for you
the truth is the same it is exactly the
same and I and I really hope my I you
know if I can do like a little this
isn't even like I'm like if I'm here to
talk about this book and by the way the
biggest audience for this book is going
to be
women there will be men who buy this
book and I promise you if you're a guy
you're going to get a ton out of this
book well the very healthy book is love
life by Matthew hussy where can people
get it we have a link uh llife book.com
uh not only can you order a copy of the
book but we have a big live event that
we're doing on May the 4th for anyone
who buys a book which is really cool the
book is your ticket to the event it's
virtual so you can join the event from
anywhere in the world
and
um and it's going to be a lot of fun my
wife's going to be there with me we're
going to have fun just chatting with
people and coaching and bringing the
book to life for anyone who really wants
to find love it's going to be an amazing
event and um and like I said it's not
you can't buy your way onto the event
it's literally the only way to be there
is to grab a copy of the book and you
can do that at love life book.com and
you'll see a space there where when you
get your receipt whether it's from
Amazon or Barnes & Noble or anywhere
else you could put the confirmation code
in on that page lli book.com and you'll
get an email with the details of how you
can the registration link for the event
and how you can join so yeah I love it
all right everybody I love this guy to
death I highly encourage you to register
for the event get the book and speaking
of things you ought to do if you haven't
already be sure to subscribe and until
next time my friends be legendary take
care peace if you like this conversation
check out this episode to learn more we
are attracted to men that fulfill their
their potential if your motivation for
becoming rich is getting more women you
have to think about the quality of women
if it takes money to access her you are
replaceable and I want to start with a
quote from you if I may what social
media is doing what this woke culture is