Kind: captions
Language: en
odds are your life is a mess given how
many people are being absolutely
destroyed by the modern world it's just
a safe bet social media has slammed into
our outdated meat suits and the results
have been horrifying people feel lost
we've got a mental health crisis
plummeting birth rates global conflict
and a penopoly of other Joys including
your subreddit for something called
gooning don't look that up trust me
thankfully though there is a way out but
this one ain't going to be easy here to
talk about it is Dr Alo
kenoia so many people come to you come
to me and they know what they want they
know their dream but they don't get out
of bed they play video games all day
they go in the Goon cave and uh Edge
until their about to fall off like
they're they're doing things that don't
move them towards their goal and they
are desperate for you to answer that
question how do you get yourself to do
something you don't want to do you stop
doing things that you want to to do so
here's my problem with that okay so I
sort of disagree with almost the premise
of the question and I'm not going to go
back to the philosophy but let's
understand this so someone says I want
to study right this is my experience so
I I wanted to not fail out of Spanish
class and so if you kind of look at it
right you ask me what's my goal my goal
is to not fail out of
college and then you say how do I get
myself to do the thing that I
want but if you really look at it the
only problem is that I want something
else more this very important to
understand anyone who is not moving
towards their goal the reason they don't
move towards their goal is not because
they lack motivation it's because they
are motivated more strongly in a
different direction beginning and end of
it so when I work with someone who's
struggling with addiction so I had a
patient right so's addicted to opioids
and I was really stunned because this
patient was doing so well in life so had
a really good job really nice family
kids who loved them and the opioid
addiction was tearing their life apart
they're going through divorce they're
going through some work assistance
program we're on the verge of getting
fired their kids hate them and I was
like bro you're ruining your life right
like I don't understand like how you
don't see that you are ruining your life
and like all you have to do is stop
ruining it right stop using this early
on and that's when they explained it to
me they're like you know the reason I'm
addicted to opiates is because it's the
one thing in my life that makes all of
my other problems go away when I'm high
I'm not ruining their life so here I am
trying to get them to stop ruining their
life and the whole problem is the
opiates achieve that goal so this is
where the everyone needs to understand
this so my antidote to that problem is
stop doing things that you're motivated
towards conquer motivation as a
phenomenon this is the problem
everyone's trying to motivate themselves
to go towards this particular
intellectual goal that is born of the
mind but there is a different part of
their brain their nucleus accumbent is
Mo motivated towards moving towards a
different goal so my goal my Approach
right and this is where some of the
philosophy we're not going to get into
it but this is why I think it's useful
is just sort of to think a little about
transcend motivation entirely start to
live a life where you're not motivated
to do anything once you remove all
motivation from life then you will be
completely free because what is
motivation is a natural inclination to
move in a particular direction so here
we are trying to struggle with creating
the right motivation so what we're
really doing in that moment I know it
sounds kind of weird see everyone's like
how do I get motivated how do I get
motivated why do you want to be
motivated because if you are motivated
it will be easy right that's why we all
want to be motivated because then
there's a natural drive to do something
if there is a natural drive then you get
to be lazy because you don't have to
control yourself oh I'm so motivated to
become a millionaire and everyone's
looking at this person they're like oh
my God this person I wish I had that
motivation they have the drive to become
a millionaire or a billionaire or
whatever and so everyone's trying to
create motivation but if you really stop
and think about it you're trying to
board a train that you still don't drive
you want to board a train that takes you
in this direction instead of that
direction but at the end of the day
you're you're not driving in either one
so my solution to that is you don't
motivate yourself to to towards a goal
you conquer all motivation and then
you're free because you're completely
unmotivated when you're completely
unmotivated then you can do whatever you
want when you're on vacation you're not
motivated to do this and you're not
motivated to do that but you can still
do a lot you don't just sit in your room
all day you're free to do whatever you
feel like does that make sense oh yes
this sounds like the moment where you
tell people that you spent seven years
pursuing becoming a monk otherwise
they're going to be like yeah whatever
yeah so I mean this is where like in my
case it was like I was I literally
basically failed out of college so I was
on academic probation and had finished
two years of college and had like a 1.8
GPA or something like that and so then I
went to India and and you know cuz I I
struggled with this motivation problem
where like I wanted to want different
things more than what I actually wanted
so I wanted to get an A I wanted to even
go to Harvard right so I I was a Premed
and I was gonna I'm going to go to
Harvard I'm going to be the best doctor
right I'm going to be smart and I'm
Indian and that's what we do as Indians
in the United States and so I had all
these ideas about what I wanted I had
all these goals and these were very
noble goals Tom they were very I was
going to save the world and I was going
to cure people of cancer and do all this
wonderful things right I was going to be
a good human being and make a positive
impact in the world and then then even
though I wanted all those things I was
still a victim to my
motivation and since I was a victim to
my motivation I ended up playing lots of
video games I didn't know how I worked I
didn't know how to control myself then I
went to India and I fell in love with it
at the end my first three months there I
spent one summer there and I went to my
teachers and I said I want to take SAS I
want to become a monk SAS means forsake
your life and my teachers is BAS as they
are one of them said you can't give up
your life and I said why not he says you
don't have [ __ ] worth giving up he said
go back to the
US get a doctoral
degree rise as high as you can in the
material world accomplish as much as you
can at the age of 30 and if you have
done a good job by
then then you can give it all up but you
have nothing worth giving up brilliant
brilliant person right this is what a
guru is they understand you on levels
that you know you don't really
understand yourself and so I kind of did
that and then that that was really my
drive it was not ego and I wanted to be
great it's that my teacher told me to do
something so I'm going to follow them as
a disciple not not because I want
something or I have a goal or what I
mean I did have a goal which is try to
succeed in the material world as much as
I could but even then it wasn't like a
particular Target it's like let's see
how far I can go I'm just going to focus
on this particular task so I would kind
of say focus on a task as opposed to a
achieve a goal which I think we're
probably will will agree with anyway um
that that sort of leads us I don't quite
know what you mean by that so uh maybe
before we can get to that can you help
me understand uh how you broke free of
all
motivation um by understanding the
nature of motivation right so by
understanding that like if you look at
yourself and You observe yourself you'll
realize that you have impulses and then
it's very very simple do you want to
give into the impulse or not give into
the impulse that's really what it boils
down to and so what we try to do is
cultivate positive impulses right so I
and but it's not about impulse it's
about kind of action I don't know if
that kind of makes sense but so so it's
it's literally what I did is observe
things and then I I for example like
gave up ice cream for 10 years because
it was my favorite thing and so I said
to myself okay let's just give this
thing up and just see how that goes
let's see if I can give this thing up
and why did I pick ice cream because I
enjoyed it the most so I picked the
thing that I enjoyed the most and you
can say that that's motivation right
maybe my nucleus succumbent wanted that
I don't know um but basically to
practice with restraining your impulses
and this is where for example there is a
there's a practice called
brara Cann I so I'm so sorry and please
don't lose your place on that and I
don't know that word so it' be hard for
me to repeat yeah um but I'm trying like
it is it is profound because I know the
details of the story of like you try
everything you're failing out your
Parents try everything tough love uh
going soft in you everything everything
nothing works and suddenly something
happens in
India that makes you suddenly give up
ice cream for 10 years like there's
there's a moment in there that maybe
it's too messy to mythologize and
explain how it happens but like how do
you go from I can't not play video games
to I give up my favorite thing for 10
years great question so I think it's
just where is my focus so it used to be
that my focus was outside of myself I
want to accomplish this out there I want
to do this over there I want to do this
over there and then my focus changed my
focus became internal what's going on in
here where does desire come from so I
had a teacher for example who told me
that this is how they kind of conquered
desire they had a teacher and the
problem is my teacher was addicted to
potato chips and so what because in the
yogic path right then the monk path it's
about uh asceticism so like not
indulging in the things that you like
right this is how we're going to become
Chads of meditation so like no sex and
no drugs and no fried foods and we're
going to be athetics which is stupid by
the way it sounds terrible yeah it's
awful so um and so what you know what
what his teacher told him is his his
problem was potato chips and he'd given
up everything else but like he'd go for
months without potato chips and this is
in India so they make them fresh you
can't get them in a I mean now you can
get them to the store but back in the
day you'd have a dude with a bowl of oil
like frying potato chips fores delicious
they don't taste good in even five or 10
minutes but so he'd walk by and this
poor yog monk right he's like gone for
six months and he's walking down the
street and some guy is frying potato
chips and he can't help himself and he
just cracks it and he buys the potato
chips so his teacher tells him you do
this if you want to conquer all desire
don't try to conquer it just observe it
just observe it that's all you need to
do this is the biggest thing that we
misunderstand in the west we're all
about doing doing doing achieving
achieving achieving we think that there
is a difference between observation and
action but even if you look at the brain
the part of brain that controls an
Impulse is the same part of brain that
observes internal conflict I forget if
it's the anterior singulate cortex or
the posterior singulate cortex there are
studies on Neuroscience that as long as
you are aware of the conflict within you
you haven't lost the battle and if you
if your listeners pay attention to this
you'll know that the moment that you
stop paying attention to the battle is
when you've lost but as long as you're
struggling you haven't lost does that
make sense and you can't struggle
without observing does that make sense
just literally the same part of the
brain it's not willpower it's awareness
of a conflict that we subjectively
experience as willpower which is kind of
hard to understand but so basically the
teacher tell him you just observe so he
bought potato chips and he kept them
with him all the time and he started to
ask himself questions like where does
the desire come from when I eat a potato
chip how much satisfaction does it bring
for how long am I satisfied so you do
this kind of process so I just look at
and understand where does my desire come
from and as you pay attention to
yourself you'll discover something very
interesting which is that it's [ __ ]
dumb so my desire for a hamburger how
much joy does it get or a cookie let's
say let say a cookie I eat a I really
want a cookie so in my desire I haven't
eaten the cookie even if I restrain
myself and I'm going to be healthy right
because it's all carbs and I mean it's
bad [ __ ] right so like even if I eat it
and I satisfy my desire there's guilt
there's suffering if I don't eat it
there's suffering if I eat one am I
satisfied no because if I want to eat
one then I want to eat a second one so
even if I satisfy the desire for one I
still want a second one so even there
suffering if I eat the second one
there's even suffering after that
because now I still want a third and
then I eat a third and there's even
suffering after that because after the
third one now I've eaten too many
cookies and now I feel guilty so no
matter where I looked at my desires I
explored myself and I found that anytime
I chase this thing it's [ __ ] dumb and
I can chase it today I can chase it
tomorrow I literally did I chased it for
years and years and years you play a
video game you watch pornography and
what happens the next day you just want
to play
again and then after you play you feel
guilty you fail out of college you watch
pornography your dick hurts because
you're jerking off too much now you
can't manage your emotions you're
running away from your problems in life
you're damned if you do damned if you
don't it's all [ __ ] dumb it's there's
no way to win this game so is through
observation that that is the fundamental
thing that I discovered no amounting no
amount of chasing my desires will ever
lead to any sense of happiness or
contentment or all I'm doing I can
temporarily make the problem go away but
I'm no different from an opioid addict
that the nucleus succumbent can get a
spurt of dopamine today but that doesn't
last forever you can have the perfect
wedding how long does the Joy from a
perfect wedding last how long does does
the resentment from not having the
perfect wedding last I've seen that last
for 40 years and ruin marriages that's
crazy right so it's just understanding
the nature of Desire this is what I
learned in India understand how you as a
human being work we have these
mathematical equations and Tom you're
brilliant you're knowledgeable you
understand all the stuff about
neuroscience and cell biology you have
so much knowledge but how much time do
we have learning about ourselves where
your desire comes from I'm not talking
about nucleus succumbent or any of that
kind of stuff because you don't need to
know that right the subjective
experience is the realm that human
beings play in and there is value to
things like gut microbiome if I have a
low serotonergic bacteria in my brain I
mean in my gut I it won't produce stopan
which is a serotonin precursor which in
turn means that my serotonin level can
be low which can predispose me to more
mood and anxiety so I need to eat
probiotics all that stuff is there I use
it with my patients but at the end of
the day all of those things will make
things a little bit easier or a little
bit harder they will never fix the
problem of the fundamental struggle that
each human being has I've never seen a
pill or a probiotic or a surgery that
can fundamentally conquer your struggle
with yourself that you have to do
subjectively and internally it's the
only
way that was a really useful explanation
of coming to understand where your
desire comes from and seeing it from all
the Angles and realizing this never goes
anywhere that I want it to uh I like
that a lot um okay so as people begin to
understand elves understand the nature
of the mind understand the nature of
Desire understand the nature of
suffering um My Hope Is that they begin
to understand okay I'm now I'm not on a
train which I thought was a brilliant
analogy I'm not on a train uh that I
don't steer I am going somewhere that
I'm in control of
I'm putting out the energy I'm choosing
the Direction all of that okay so I'm
going to call those levers that you're
going to pull you're going to choose
where you go so bringing this back to
we've got modern guys in crisis and they
Now understand okay they're to do the
things I want to do I need to be aware
of everything you just walked us through
so now I'm going to be able to pull the
right
levers what are the right levers that
they need to pull let's focus on dating
for a second so if these guys want to be
successful with women what are the
levers that they pull in the reality of
today's dating market so I'm gonna
answer that question in an annoying way
and in a useful way okay so the first
annoying way is that you're still you're
falling into the same trap which is
which levers do I pull to get to where I
want to go same problem you still have
the want which is driving you now you
just want to achieve the want you want
to use everything that that I've taught
you which is to abandon all want to
begin with we'll get to the practical in
a second but do you see that you're
still sort of like you can do it very
practically and we're going to get to
that second answer but the real answer
is to stop wanting to achieve something
right start really and this is what
you'll hear from people which is focus
on yourself and and so this is kind of
my experience so I struggled a lot with
dating like in high school I never
really had a girlfriend never really
even dated at all I had crushes on
people but didn't know how to talk to
girls then I go to college and I was
going to reinvent myself I joined a
fraternity drank a lot went to parties
and just had catastrophic after
catastrophic I can't even call them
relationships to be honest and then I
decided to become celibate right because
I'm going to become a
monk no temptation I have to conquer sin
and lust and all of these things I'm
going to rise above so really what had
happened at that point psychologically
is I had failed at life and I was
adopting a narcissistic view that I'm
going to be rise above materialism right
so I'm going to start devaluing that
which I had failed which is a big thing
that a lot of people struggle with is
they start to devalue things that they
think that they're bad at because that's
how your ego feels good about it then I
noticed something weird happened when I
stopped worrying about sex people that's
when I met my wife
and suddenly because now like what used
to happen is this my subjective
experience is when I'm talking to a girl
how do I get this girl to like me you
know I have that insecurity we human
beings are empathic so the girls would
detect that insecurity in me because I'm
feeling it right so people will say like
be confident well you can't be confident
it's not something that you can be it's
something that you are not or are not so
how do you cultivate that confidence
with Detachment so I let go of even
wanting a girlfriend I'm going to be CIB
and suddenly women are attracted to me
because now I can be conf because
there's no I'm not trying to achieve
anything so I can be
authentic you know I I remember like
talking to girls and and sort of being
like you know being like hey do you want
to hang out sometime and they'd be like
I have a boyfriend and then I'd be like
cool do you want to invite him right and
and so so we'll get to the Practical
practicalities of it but I think really
letting go of the want and this is where
in in the yogic system there's this idea
called Vaga which means Detachment so
this is also in stoicism so this whole
idea that we want to detach from the
outcomes of our actions and we want to
focus on the actions themselves because
I can't I can't I don't know if this
makes sense I can never get a girlfriend
is literally impossible does that make
sense to you not yet okay so what can
you do to get a
girlfriend uh you can to shorthand it
you can be the thing that she is very
attracted to and if you the thing that
she's very attracted to does that mean
that she's going to be your girlfriend
yes yes I would disagree right so I I
know lots of people who are attracted to
all kinds of people but choose not to
date them for any number of reasons sure
be the thing the girl wants maybe would
have been a better way to say it so
here's the reason you can never get a
girlfriend because there is another
conscious being at play mhm so you can
never control what she does that's one
way to look at it I think that's can you
control another human being yes I know
where you're getting at so I'll instead
of giving cheeky answers I will just say
this uh every literally every word
you're saying I think is so bang on
accurate but I think it is misleading to
not acknowledge that you can do things
to sway somebody's opinion about you for
better or worse that you can have very
profound influence so I will use this
bit of my own life
experience uh like you in high school I
was just unbelievably bad with women um
I was once in bed with a
woman I was on second base rounding
third and I managed to [ __ ] it up I
still can't believe this is a real story
this is a real story uh and I just did
not understand how to be successful with
women and then when I figured it out the
punchline being what I would have said
no fear of loss what you're calling
Detachment or no
desire once I had no fear of loss and I
presented myself very confidently and I
was I faking it wasn't really faking it
I was like I just no longer care what
they think about me I'm going to be me
because I I had come to believe it was
the winning strategy so my confidence
was in the strategy itself go ahead yeah
so I I don't disagree with you at all
but I I still think oh I guess I well
let me let me finish that that story
once I did that then my hit rate went
from 1% to 40% I mean nobody bats a
thousand but it was such a leap forward
that could I I can't force anybody to do
anything but man when you are a key that
unlocks a certain number of doors and
it's a good number of doors all of a
sudden you feel like oh my God the key I
just needed the
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camera so I I'm with you so so and I say
this as a doctor right so let me let me
kind of agree and disagree with you so
as a doctor do I have the power to Save
a Life yes I would say no yes I right so
you learn this you learn this the hard
way in medicine so I trained at Harvard
Medical School I had great teachers we
have amazing equipment and no doctor has
the power over life and
death right so you can you're allowed to
disagree with with that now that doesn't
just because we have no power so we
don't have absolute power let's put it
that way I will agree with that right so
so I think that that's I think we're
basically saying the same thing which is
that and then if you really look at it
then we have all these evidence-based
approaches which are probabilistic which
are more likely to result in what
happens but at the end of the day there
is some element that is outside of your
control and we do not have absolute
power let's call it that so then the
question kind of becomes okay so then
what are the strategies that you want to
employ if you're a man today and you
want women to like you so I think the
first thing and this is where I I kind
of say step away from the goal so step
away with the goal of getting this
person it sounds like you sort of call
this the fear of loss which is step away
from that right be who you are you can
plant a seed and you can water it every
day but you can't make it grow the human
beings if you really look at what human
beings truly have control over we only
have control over this everything else
has some element of Randomness to it I
cannot mind control another human being
I can barely mind control
myself and so this I think is the big
thing is that we get way too caught up
this is my Approach right is we get way
too caught up in trying to get a girl to
like me and I think this is true which
is why you get to the same conclusion is
is you focus on yourself you focus on
Detachment from the outcome and you
focus on the task in the present not
where you want to go so I I think this
may sound surprising but maybe you know
this because you've done your research
right so if you ask me like what's my
goal with healthy gamer and all the work
that I don't have one I really don't I
just show up every single day because I
have no idea if I'm going to be live
tomorrow I do plan for the future
because chances are probabilistically I
will be alive but I don't control life
or death I don't know if the world is
going to end with a nuclear eruption
tomorrow or our magnetic poles are going
to flip or all manner of other things
what do I truly control I just control
what I do the whole problem with people
and women is that we spend so much time
trying to control another human being
how do I get this girl to like me how do
I get my boss to promote me how do I do
this how do I do this how do this we
spend so much energy trying to control
the thing that we fundamentally have the
least control over instead of focusing
on how do I control this how do I could
turn this into the best possible version
of what it is and as you move in that
direction this is when dating will
become way easier so what happened with
me is not only did I get one girlfriend
who eventually became a wife but now I
had even more Detachment so then when I
was working in the hospital suddenly
like all these nurses and stuff started
hitting on me and I was like what the
[ __ ] is this I went through all of my
adolescent and teenage years with women
not batting and eyelash even looking in
my direction they looked in the other
way and I realized that here I am an
authentic guy I I can afford to be smart
I can afford to be funny I don't care
what this girl thinks I'm not trying to
get with her and suddenly this is when
when I start to attract other women so I
think practically what we need to do is
and I'm all for like falling in love and
stuff like that and then go for it right
but even then there's some amount of
Detachment that you can cultivate so
that's what I did which is sort of like
acknowledging that I can even though I'm
love I'm going to enjoy the experience
right let's see where this goes and this
may result in heartbreak but that's part
of life I don't get to choose whether I
get heartbroken or this person falls in
love with me too so that there's a lot
of stuff that you don't control don't
focus on that focus on yourself and then
I'm not saying that focus on yourself to
the point of ignoring other things like
don't just F you know if you go to the
gym every single day but you never
approach a woman it's not going to work
so you have to take the actions but
you're not entitled to the fruits of
your actions so this is where why I
really sort of encourage people to don't
worry about the fruit so this is a
Eastern concept called karma far so
karma means action and far means fruit
so all I'm entitled to in life is what I
do I don't get to control whether my
company is successful or not successful
whether this podcast is successful or
not successful that's not in my control
it's not in your control we can optimize
things we can prepare for them we can
cultivate all the right attitudes but at
the end of the day who knows there could
be this power outage and everything all
the power goes out and then we're so so
what you should really focus on first of
all is don't get overly caught up in one
particular person if you feel love just
acknowledge it observe it notice how
wonderful it is and how painful it is to
be in love focus on what you can control
focus on the actions observe yourself
and the last thing is to try to shed as
much baggage as you can because all of
your
prior
relationships will form things like
resentments conclusions and you will
project your past experience into
current situations in your relationship
which will sabotage your relationship
recognize that each person you are
dating is
a completely new person and what I sort
of see with people who are held back is
they will interpret neutral stimuli in
the dating world as negative based on
their past experience I texted this girl
she didn't text back in 10 minutes that
means she's not into me we make all of
these conclusions based on completely
neutral stimuli the reason she didn't
text you back is maybe her phone died
maybe her phone got stolen there are all
kinds of different things on the
differential
diagnosis but it's the conclusions that
we jump to in our mind that sabotages us
the
most what do you think the role of porn
is in modern
relationships I mean I
don't bad is a short answer so I I don't
really think about porn as tied to
relationships I know that's kind of
really yeah oh yeah and tell me more so
if we look at pornography addiction okay
the science of it everyone thinks that
pornography is about lust about about
relationships with women and it can it
can interfere with that I've absolutely
seen that but let's understand like the
neuroscience and clinical progression of
pornography addiction so first thing
that's interesting with pornography
addiction is prepubertal exposure of
pornography it's correlated with it okay
so people start watching porn at a very
young age when they don't even have the
capability of an erection or maybe they
get an erection it's the first erection
they they have no idea what they're
doing do they
masturbate not usually at the beginning
so it's just like a whoo this is weird
yeah so if you look and this based on my
clinical experience and we'll get to
some things that are research based but
if you look at people basically the
earlier you get exposed to something the
more likely you are your brain is still
developing it's still in its infantile
stages so the younger and more
vulnerable the brain is the more likely
you are to get addicted but when a
9-year-old watches
pornography and their brain starts to
change this has nothing to do with women
at this point right we'll get to how it
can relate to relationships so the
second thing is that any addiction
requires two things the ability to give
pleasure and take away pain it has to
have both and if you really look at what
pornography is really really good at in
the brain it's not even the dopaminergic
part it's the suppression of our
negative emotional circuitry so
pornography addiction is essentially an
emotional regulation
technique that's really what the main
thing that that happens now if you look
at the research of it what correlates
with pornography addiction so this is in
adults it's meaninglessness in life
so one of the two variables that is most
tightly correlated with pornography
addiction is having no reason not to
watch porn so you have to have a reason
and this where when we focus on helping
people with pornography addiction we
don't worry about relationships and
things like that we worry about building
a life so that you can't sit home and
watch porn all the time building
alternative emotional regulation
strategies because porn is so good at it
so this is also something to understand
is that see the sex and the drive to
procreate you'll love this as a
biological reductionist is so powerful
so I tried to understand what part of
the brain does sex affect and there's a
great reference which we can sh share
with your audience if you all want but
it turns out that sex like all the other
parts of our all other functions of the
human mind are located in some part of
the brain so our frontal loes do this
our occipital cortex does this but sex
is every part of the brain every single
neurotransmitter so our whole brain is
devoted to sex so the thing about
pornography is it has a whole brain
effect if we sort of look at even
something like you know a man who has
cancer who's 80 years old still is
producing viable sperm can get it up
occasionally and can impregnate someone
right so our whole biological evolution
is designed for sex and so as a result
this is why pornography addiction is so
powerful because you're recruiting all
of these different parts of the brain
and in different ways and so it's a very
powerful emotional regulation technique
as an aside if you look at the yogi they
say that one state of temporary
Enlightenment is orgasm so if you look
at the State of Mind in orgasm there's
no thought it's a Transcendent State
we're not talking about post-nut Clarity
or prenut anxiety or whatever that
moment of or orgasm is a no mind State
you're not thinking anything you're just
in the moment fully without attachment
without thought with just pure Bliss
that's why everyone's so addicted to it
because it's the quickest way to get to
Temporary
Enlightenment right because it's
blissful
and so then what you can do is you can
practice meditation and what you'll
discover is through good meditation you
will essentially have protracted orgasms
it's the same state of mind and it can
feel
amazing um but going back to pornography
addiction so it's a very powerful
emotional regulator really shuts off
your amydala in your lyic system also
releases some dopamine if you masturbate
and Achieve orgasm but a lot of people
who are uh addicted to pornography watch
way more pornography and it doesn't
always end in masturbation or orgasm wow
which is a lot of people don't know this
um so it's really an emotional
regulation technique now over time this
can absolutely result in problems in
relationships but it's not early on so
I've seen all kinds of relation problems
with relationships in pornography but I
don't think it's due to pornography
addiction so if you have a woman who's
insecure who feels like she can't
satisfy all of her man's needs or or
things like that and she has problems
with him watching porn that can cause
problems pornography relationship uh
pornography addiction can absolutely
cause problems in relationships if Men
start to believe that pornography
is some kind of correlation with
relationships if the women that you see
in in
pornos um you know behave like real
women in real life you're going to get
all screwed up in your relationships but
these are Downstream effects uh one
really good example of this is I I once
had a really you know sad case of a a
young college student who came to me and
said like you know I have a problem is
that I can't achieve a full orgasm and
then I asked him what what do you mean
by you can't achieve a full orgasm and
he's like I I have like you know like I
have the first stage of an orgasm but I
can't get like the full way there and
then like it took me a while like I did
Psychotherapy and stuff and then one day
I I removed all of my prior conceptions
then I asked him what do you mean by
full orgasm tell help me understand like
tell me like what literally happens like
give me like volumes and the problem is
this guy's watching pornography he sees
gallons of ejaculate and he thinks that
and he has a normal volume of ejaculate
which is like 3 to 5 millit and he
doesn't even realize that he's having an
orgasm and he's finishing that is
hysterical right it's crazy so you can
see these kind of Downstream effects but
basically pornography is just like any
other addiction it can affect
relationships but usually doesn't I mean
it does impact relationships but there
isn't as direct of an impact as most
people think it's really interesting um
the porn addiction angle is definitely
one that I'm not nearly as familiar and
so listening to you talk here and in the
research I did is really really eye
openening I think there's another
element to this I'd love to get your
take on it is to want to risk putting
yourself out there for a woman to reject
you've really got to be quite hungry and
I would say there's two motivating
factors there somebody I want to share
my life with and sex and I think sex
certainly for a young man is such a
potent driver that if you're at home and
you're masturbating several times a week
I don't know that you're going to have
the drive especially if you've got video
games staring at you and you know Friday
night could be go to the bar risk
rejection or stay home and play video
games with my friends online feel like
an actual athlete man for people if
you've never played video games like I
am in my late 40s and let me tell you
when I play video games I feel like I I
am an athlete I feel like I'm competing
I am playing to win I've Gotten Good at
something something it's incredible so I
can feel like an athlete and play this
thing that I absolutely love and I can
see the most attractive naked women
and have pseudo sex seems like a pretty
good thing when I combine that with the
data on birth rates it gets terrifying
because birth rates are
plummeting yeah so I'm I'm uh I yeah I
mean I agree I I think that like so the
here here's the basic problem with
technology right and and uh I recently
wrote a book for parents that's coming
out in a couple weeks but so I think the
basic problem with technology is that
people have figured
out how to give the brain what it always
wanted in simpler ways in less risk in
risk-free ways so if we sort of look at
all of this biological drive to have sex
why it's because it was necessary for
procreation and it used to be hard to
have an orgasm right you have to it
requires a partner maybe I don't know
how long talking about guys here what
what do you mean you think it was hard
for guys to have an orgasm no I mean in
the sense of like sexuality and stuff so
like I mean I know I was just wondering
about I don't know how how many years
ago human beings started masturbating I
imagine it was a long time ago monkeys
monkeys yeah yeah so I I realized I was
about to make that comment but so you
have you have a lot of evolutionary
drive to do this thing and then what
happens though is that I think that the
way that pornography has grown and if
you look at all Technologies like so you
talked about you know being an athlete
so the problem is that technology people
have figured out how to activate some
parts of your brain so you do get that
dopamine kick you do get like all of the
like not all but you get like some level
of activation which is what really
motivates you and then the problem is
that your brain has a choice so I can
either do it the hard way and get even
less of a dopamine activation or I can
do it the Easy r risk-free way and it's
really about the risk-free and I think
that's what you kind of really touched
on with this sort whole idea of going to
the bar and getting rejected right and
at some point your brain starts to say
like it's not worth the trouble and
people will start to consciously believe
that right that's why they sort of
that's how they become incels or
whatever and and so it it just becomes
the world is becoming lopsided once
technology enters the picture because we
can get
50% of our brain structures activated or
even hyperactivated there's a really
fascinating study on beetles there's
this population of beetles that were
going out of uh were not going extinct
but in a local area and it turned out
the reason that they were becoming
endangered is because they were having
sex with beer bottles and so people were
like this is really weird but there's a
particular green beer bottle which The
Beatles were trying to procreate with
and then people sort of discovered that
okay there are ways to create something
called a supera normal stimulus which
then these beetles are drawn to so
something about the way that they
perceive this green beer bottle makes it
look like a super hot female Beetle and
in the same way if you look at the
trends in pornography tits are getting
bigger higher resolution louder sound
virtual reality so we're creating these
super normal stimuli that are drawing Us
in and now the brain has a choice it's
like I can either have no risk for free
at my home and jerk off or I can go to a
bar try to talk to someone it makes me
feel I get rejected right and then as I
get a social skills atrophy it starts to
become harder and harder to engage with
women and then it becomes a vicious
cycle where people then just tap out of
the game they're just done with it and
this is probably a piece of why we don't
have why we have low birth rates but I I
I don't think it's I think that's has
other issues too have you heard of the
um gooning
subreddit there's at least a million it
might be multi-million people so so I'm
just now learning about this utterly
fascinating so uh massive subreddit
gooning is basically going into your
bedroom or whatever setting up
oftentimes multis screens and saying I'm
going to be here for a while pulling up
frequently multiple pornographic movies
on the different screens and basically
trying to Edge and make it last as long
as you can now from what I know in the
literature about pornography if you're
spending that kind of time on
pornography that pornography is going to
get weirder and weirder and if I'm
understanding the subreddit write one of
the most popular forms of pornography is
um transgender porn and going back to
the book uh a billion Wicked thoughts
they talk about that that as you
habituate to the type of porn you look
for more and more extreme uh novel maybe
an even better way to think about it um
what do you think about that what does
that tell us about where we're headed so
I I think it's it's back to the beer
bottles right so so what we're doing is
as we acclimatize to a particular
stimulus our dopamine levels will go
down right so this is why this is why
people overdose when they get addicted
to opiates because the original dose
doesn't work anymore because there's
homeostatic tolerance so I need to up
the dose on the signal to chase that old
high same thing happens with pornography
when I watch pornography every day I
climatize to the stimulus need more
hardcore
porn so I think this is just the new
version of that it's going to keep going
by the way so as you goon twice a week
you're going to need to do more and
that's just the N the nature of of this
kind of stuff so there'll be transgender
porn there will be more hardcore porn
there's so we see this where there's
like basically you need a stronger and
stronger stimulus to chase that old
dopam energic rush and it it looks like
people have sort of stumbled into this
right and they're making it like an art
form of gooning where we're going to try
to work together as a community of a
million people to figure out how to
squeeze as much dopamine as we can from
this particular thing so I think this is
like exactly what I'm talking about we
like as a human race like we're not
going to nuclear war is not going to
[ __ ] us it's going to be stuff like
haptic feedback and virtual girlfriends
and things like that and someone is
going to figure out and this is what
happened with video games someone is
going to figure out that Within AI
girlfriend the way to really get someone
addicted is we have to approximate the
real experience as much as possible
which means once in a while your AI
girlfriend is going to pick a fight with
you and she's actually going to hang up
on you when you call her and they're
going to exhibit I'm I don't know if
this is true or not but I would bet
money that over time this is exactly
what we're going to see and as we do
that we're activating other parts of the
brain and we're making this virtual
experience approximate the real thing
because I'm sure you're familiar with
random reinforce sches right so right
now the problem with porn is that any
time I watch it it's always available
the moment that someone figures out that
denying someone their pornography 20% of
the time means that they are going to
come to your website more that's so
crazy right so gooning is just one
example there's a thousand other
examples of how porn will evolve as long
as we as human beings are going to rely
on the outside world to satisfy this
it's just the most recent manifestation
what do you think's really going to
happen with AI girlfriends like does it
freak you out like are you waking up in
the middle of the night in a cold sweat
because I know you have kids and
thinking oh God no I'm not waking up I
think it could be the end of the human
race but I'm not freaking out about
it right so if the human race ends it
ends like what you know I can't control
that so like this is where I there's no
I'm not going to prevent you know I
can't stop the tide of AI girlfriends in
fact I may have just leaked something
that will you know the first pornography
site to start denying pornography to
their users they may figure this out I
may have helped them but I think what's
going to happen so this is really
interesting in the late 90s we developed
an interesting technology in medicine
called haptic feedback and this was
developed because we wanted to do remote
physical diagnosis so literally what
happened if someone developed a glove
where you could palpate a breast in one
location and then that glove sends
signals to a different glove where the
person feels the resistance so you could
literally feel like a cancerous nodule
in someone else's breast remotely
because it pushes against you and we
have these kind of like you know things
like fleshlights and stuff like that and
I think at some point someone is going
to combine all of this stuff into a
girlfriend that throws temper tantrums
that is there for you maybe even like
kind of pretend cheats on you and then
has all this psychologically like
activating stuff along with physical
feedback fleshlights virtual reality
it'll all get integrated and then the
human race is
[ __ ] that's a very terrifying picture
uh What I find most interesting I mean
there's two things one that you are very
because you can't control the outcomes
you are very fatalistic about what might
happen that's certainly interesting what
do you mean by fatalistic that ah the
world might end or human race might end
so what it is what it is so I'm trying
to stop it but I can't stop it you can't
have absolute authority over whether it
stops just to play my own little game
there with myself uh yes and then the
other part that I find interesting is
that I do think the stakes are
extraordinarily High I agree with you on
that very much but that you think a key
part of making this all work is a lot of
uh a certain percentage of negative
things that the AI girlfriend to be
effective is going to pick a fight with
you that she's going to you said po like
flirt with the idea that maybe she's
cheated on you why would that up your
attachment to it because that's what
happens in regular humans right so you
think about this so you have an amazing
wife of 21 years yeah married 21 yeah
right so like and what would happen to
you emotionally if someone else
started not quite flirting right but
started doing something to pull your
wife's attention away from you and she's
not sending you any kind of signal that
she's going to be unfaithful or anything
like that what do you think that would
do to you emotionally and like to your
attachment to the relationship yeah it's
interesting um for me because that is in
my insecurity my wife has done such an
amazing job making me feel like her
number one ah
uh I that wouldn't make me insecure I
would be happy for her if someone is
flirting with her and that she still got
it and all that um but I trust me I am
hyper aware of the the psychological
response of if you think that your woman
like the uh study show if you believe
that your woman has been near other men
and had a chance to cheat your ejaculate
volume goes up substantially so you get
into sperm competition and like this is
this is part of the reason why male porn
is way more likely to be multiple men
and a single female because that cue
going back to how you get into
transsexual porn even if you identify as
a straight guy in these gooning uh
subreddits
the the brain is the male brain is
hardwired to be hyperconscious of the
present presence of other penises which
is weird uh but nonetheless true so
anyway while I might have a mildly
atypical conditioned response because of
the being with my wife for 21 years I
certainly get the thing but that's that
is really interesting and distressing
yeah so in this case it's atypical right
but you just cited a bunch of research
that pushes it in the direction no
you're 100% right right I'm just super
unnerved because it means that we're
going to be knowingly triggering anxiety
in people to get them to come back
jealousy anxiety and then and then oh my
God it goes even deeper than that
because she's going to she's going to
like start to cheat