Kind: captions
Language: en
odds are your life is a mess given how
many people are being absolutely
destroyed by the modern world it's just
a safe bet social media has slammed into
our outdated meat suits and the results
have been horrifying people feel lost
we've got a mental health crisis
plummeting birth rates global conflict
and a penopoly of other Joys including
your subreddit for something called
gooning don't look that up trust me
thankfully though there is a way out but
this one ain't going to be easy here to
talk about it is Dr Alo
kenoia so many people come to you come
to me and they know what they want they
know their dream but they don't get out
of bed they play video games all day
they go in the Goon cave and uh Edge
until their about to fall off like
they're they're doing things that don't
move them towards their goal and they
are desperate for you to answer that
question how do you get yourself to do
something you don't want to do you stop
doing things that you want to to do so
here's my problem with that okay so I
sort of disagree with almost the premise
of the question and I'm not going to go
back to the philosophy but let's
understand this so someone says I want
to study right this is my experience so
I I wanted to not fail out of Spanish
class and so if you kind of look at it
right you ask me what's my goal my goal
is to not fail out of
college and then you say how do I get
myself to do the thing that I
want but if you really look at it the
only problem is that I want something
else more this very important to
understand anyone who is not moving
towards their goal the reason they don't
move towards their goal is not because
they lack motivation it's because they
are motivated more strongly in a
different direction beginning and end of
it so when I work with someone who's
struggling with addiction so I had a
patient right so's addicted to opioids
and I was really stunned because this
patient was doing so well in life so had
a really good job really nice family
kids who loved them and the opioid
addiction was tearing their life apart
they're going through divorce they're
going through some work assistance
program we're on the verge of getting
fired their kids hate them and I was
like bro you're ruining your life right
like I don't understand like how you
don't see that you are ruining your life
and like all you have to do is stop
ruining it right stop using this early
on and that's when they explained it to
me they're like you know the reason I'm
addicted to opiates is because it's the
one thing in my life that makes all of
my other problems go away when I'm high
I'm not ruining their life so here I am
trying to get them to stop ruining their
life and the whole problem is the
opiates achieve that goal so this is
where the everyone needs to understand
this so my antidote to that problem is
stop doing things that you're motivated
towards conquer motivation as a
phenomenon this is the problem
everyone's trying to motivate themselves
to go towards this particular
intellectual goal that is born of the
mind but there is a different part of
their brain their nucleus accumbent is
Mo motivated towards moving towards a
different goal so my goal my Approach
right and this is where some of the
philosophy we're not going to get into
it but this is why I think it's useful
is just sort of to think a little about
transcend motivation entirely start to
live a life where you're not motivated
to do anything once you remove all
motivation from life then you will be
completely free because what is
motivation is a natural inclination to
move in a particular direction so here
we are trying to struggle with creating
the right motivation so what we're
really doing in that moment I know it
sounds kind of weird see everyone's like
how do I get motivated how do I get
motivated why do you want to be
motivated because if you are motivated
it will be easy right that's why we all
want to be motivated because then
there's a natural drive to do something
if there is a natural drive then you get
to be lazy because you don't have to
control yourself oh I'm so motivated to
become a millionaire and everyone's
looking at this person they're like oh
my God this person I wish I had that
motivation they have the drive to become
a millionaire or a billionaire or
whatever and so everyone's trying to
create motivation but if you really stop
and think about it you're trying to
board a train that you still don't drive
you want to board a train that takes you
in this direction instead of that
direction but at the end of the day
you're you're not driving in either one
so my solution to that is you don't
motivate yourself to to towards a goal
you conquer all motivation and then
you're free because you're completely
unmotivated when you're completely
unmotivated then you can do whatever you
want when you're on vacation you're not
motivated to do this and you're not
motivated to do that but you can still
do a lot you don't just sit in your room
all day you're free to do whatever you
feel like does that make sense oh yes
this sounds like the moment where you
tell people that you spent seven years
pursuing becoming a monk otherwise
they're going to be like yeah whatever
yeah so I mean this is where like in my
case it was like I was I literally
basically failed out of college so I was
on academic probation and had finished
two years of college and had like a 1.8
GPA or something like that and so then I
went to India and and you know cuz I I
struggled with this motivation problem
where like I wanted to want different
things more than what I actually wanted
so I wanted to get an A I wanted to even
go to Harvard right so I I was a Premed
and I was gonna I'm going to go to
Harvard I'm going to be the best doctor
right I'm going to be smart and I'm
Indian and that's what we do as Indians
in the United States and so I had all
these ideas about what I wanted I had
all these goals and these were very
noble goals Tom they were very I was
going to save the world and I was going
to cure people of cancer and do all this
wonderful things right I was going to be
a good human being and make a positive
impact in the world and then then even
though I wanted all those things I was
still a victim to my
motivation and since I was a victim to
my motivation I ended up playing lots of
video games I didn't know how I worked I
didn't know how to control myself then I
went to India and I fell in love with it
at the end my first three months there I
spent one summer there and I went to my
teachers and I said I want to take SAS I
want to become a monk SAS means forsake
your life and my teachers is BAS as they
are one of them said you can't give up
your life and I said why not he says you
don't have [ __ ] worth giving up he said
go back to the
US get a doctoral
degree rise as high as you can in the
material world accomplish as much as you
can at the age of 30 and if you have
done a good job by
then then you can give it all up but you
have nothing worth giving up brilliant
brilliant person right this is what a
guru is they understand you on levels
that you know you don't really
understand yourself and so I kind of did
that and then that that was really my
drive it was not ego and I wanted to be
great it's that my teacher told me to do
something so I'm going to follow them as
a disciple not not because I want
something or I have a goal or what I
mean I did have a goal which is try to
succeed in the material world as much as
I could but even then it wasn't like a
particular Target it's like let's see
how far I can go I'm just going to focus
on this particular task so I would kind
of say focus on a task as opposed to a
achieve a goal which I think we're
probably will will agree with anyway um
that that sort of leads us I don't quite
know what you mean by that so uh maybe
before we can get to that can you help
me understand uh how you broke free of
all
motivation um by understanding the
nature of motivation right so by
understanding that like if you look at
yourself and You observe yourself you'll
realize that you have impulses and then
it's very very simple do you want to
give into the impulse or not give into
the impulse that's really what it boils
down to and so what we try to do is
cultivate positive impulses right so I
and but it's not about impulse it's
about kind of action I don't know if
that kind of makes sense but so so it's
it's literally what I did is observe
things and then I I for example like
gave up ice cream for 10 years because
it was my favorite thing and so I said
to myself okay let's just give this
thing up and just see how that goes
let's see if I can give this thing up
and why did I pick ice cream because I
enjoyed it the most so I picked the
thing that I enjoyed the most and you
can say that that's motivation right
maybe my nucleus succumbent wanted that
I don't know um but basically to
practice with restraining your impulses
and this is where for example there is a
there's a practice called
brara Cann I so I'm so sorry and please
don't lose your place on that and I
don't know that word so it' be hard for
me to repeat yeah um but I'm trying like
it is it is profound because I know the
details of the story of like you try
everything you're failing out your
Parents try everything tough love uh
going soft in you everything everything
nothing works and suddenly something
happens in
India that makes you suddenly give up
ice cream for 10 years like there's
there's a moment in there that maybe
it's too messy to mythologize and
explain how it happens but like how do
you go from I can't not play video games
to I give up my favorite thing for 10
years great question so I think it's
just where is my focus so it used to be
that my focus was outside of myself I
want to accomplish this out there I want
to do this over there I want to do this
over there and then my focus changed my
focus became internal what's going on in
here where does desire come from so I
had a teacher for example who told me
that this is how they kind of conquered
desire they had a teacher and the
problem is my teacher was addicted to
potato chips and so what because in the
yogic path right then the monk path it's
about uh asceticism so like not
indulging in the things that you like
right this is how we're going to become
Chads of meditation so like no sex and
no drugs and no fried foods and we're
going to be athetics which is stupid by
the way it sounds terrible yeah it's
awful so um and so what you know what
what his teacher told him is his his
problem was potato chips and he'd given
up everything else but like he'd go for
months without potato chips and this is
in India so they make them fresh you
can't get them in a I mean now you can
get them to the store but back in the
day you'd have a dude with a bowl of oil
like frying potato chips fores delicious
they don't taste good in even five or 10
minutes but so he'd walk by and this
poor yog monk right he's like gone for
six months and he's walking down the
street and some guy is frying potato
chips and he can't help himself and he
just cracks it and he buys the potato
chips so his teacher tells him you do
this if you want to conquer all desire
don't try to conquer it just observe it
just observe it that's all you need to
do this is the biggest thing that we
misunderstand in the west we're all
about doing doing doing achieving
achieving achieving we think that there
is a difference between observation and
action but even if you look at the brain
the part of brain that controls an
Impulse is the same part of brain that
observes internal conflict I forget if
it's the anterior singulate cortex or
the posterior singulate cortex there are
studies on Neuroscience that as long as
you are aware of the conflict within you
you haven't lost the battle and if you
if your listeners pay attention to this
you'll know that the moment that you
stop paying attention to the battle is
when you've lost but as long as you're
struggling you haven't lost does that
make sense and you can't struggle
without observing does that make sense
just literally the same part of the
brain it's not willpower it's awareness
of a conflict that we subjectively
experience as willpower which is kind of
hard to understand but so basically the
teacher tell him you just observe so he
bought potato chips and he kept them
with him all the time and he started to
ask himself questions like where does
the desire come from when I eat a potato
chip how much satisfaction does it bring
for how long am I satisfied so you do
this kind of process so I just look at
and understand where does my desire come
from and as you pay attention to
yourself you'll discover something very
interesting which is that it's [ __ ]
dumb so my desire for a hamburger how
much joy does it get or a cookie let's
say let say a cookie I eat a I really
want a cookie so in my desire I haven't
eaten the cookie even if I restrain
myself and I'm going to be healthy right
because it's all carbs and I mean it's
bad [ __ ] right so like even if I eat it
and I satisfy my desire there's guilt
there's suffering if I don't eat it
there's suffering if I eat one am I
satisfied no because if I want to eat
one then I want to eat a second one so
even if I satisfy the desire for one I
still want a second one so even there
suffering if I eat the second one
there's even suffering after that
because now I still want a third and
then I eat a third and there's even
suffering after that because after the
third one now I've eaten too many
cookies and now I feel guilty so no
matter where I looked at my desires I
explored myself and I found that anytime
I chase this thing it's [ __ ] dumb and
I can chase it today I can chase it
tomorrow I literally did I chased it for
years and years and years you play a
video game you watch pornography and
what happens the next day you just want
to play
again and then after you play you feel
guilty you fail out of college you watch
pornography your dick hurts because
you're jerking off too much now you
can't manage your emotions you're
running away from your problems in life
you're damned if you do damned if you
don't it's all [ __ ] dumb it's there's
no way to win this game so is through
observation that that is the fundamental
thing that I discovered no amounting no
amount of chasing my desires will ever
lead to any sense of happiness or
contentment or all I'm doing I can
temporarily make the problem go away but
I'm no different from an opioid addict
that the nucleus succumbent can get a
spurt of dopamine today but that doesn't
last forever you can have the perfect
wedding how long does the Joy from a
perfect wedding last how long does does
the resentment from not having the
perfect wedding last I've seen that last
for 40 years and ruin marriages that's
crazy right so it's just understanding
the nature of Desire this is what I
learned in India understand how you as a
human being work we have these
mathematical equations and Tom you're
brilliant you're knowledgeable you
understand all the stuff about
neuroscience and cell biology you have
so much knowledge but how much time do
we have learning about ourselves where
your desire comes from I'm not talking
about nucleus succumbent or any of that
kind of stuff because you don't need to
know that right the subjective
experience is the realm that human
beings play in and there is value to
things like gut microbiome if I have a
low serotonergic bacteria in my brain I
mean in my gut I it won't produce stopan
which is a serotonin precursor which in
turn means that my serotonin level can
be low which can predispose me to more
mood and anxiety so I need to eat
probiotics all that stuff is there I use
it with my patients but at the end of
the day all of those things will make
things a little bit easier or a little
bit harder they will never fix the
problem of the fundamental struggle that
each human being has I've never seen a
pill or a probiotic or a surgery that
can fundamentally conquer your struggle
with yourself that you have to do
subjectively and internally it's the
only
way that was a really useful explanation
of coming to understand where your
desire comes from and seeing it from all
the Angles and realizing this never goes
anywhere that I want it to uh I like
that a lot um okay so as people begin to
understand elves understand the nature
of the mind understand the nature of
Desire understand the nature of
suffering um My Hope Is that they begin
to understand okay I'm now I'm not on a
train which I thought was a brilliant
analogy I'm not on a train uh that I
don't steer I am going somewhere that
I'm in control of
I'm putting out the energy I'm choosing
the Direction all of that okay so I'm
going to call those levers that you're
going to pull you're going to choose
where you go so bringing this back to
we've got modern guys in crisis and they
Now understand okay they're to do the
things I want to do I need to be aware
of everything you just walked us through
so now I'm going to be able to pull the
right
levers what are the right levers that
they need to pull let's focus on dating
for a second so if these guys want to be
successful with women what are the
levers that they pull in the reality of
today's dating market so I'm gonna
answer that question in an annoying way
and in a useful way okay so the first
annoying way is that you're still you're
falling into the same trap which is
which levers do I pull to get to where I
want to go same problem you still have
the want which is driving you now you
just want to achieve the want you want
to use everything that that I've taught
you which is to abandon all want to
begin with we'll get to the practical in
a second but do you see that you're
still sort of like you can do it very
practically and we're going to get to
that second answer but the real answer
is to stop wanting to achieve something
right start really and this is what
you'll hear from people which is focus
on yourself and and so this is kind of
my experience so I struggled a lot with
dating like in high school I never
really had a girlfriend never really
even dated at all I had crushes on
people but didn't know how to talk to
girls then I go to college and I was
going to reinvent myself I joined a
fraternity drank a lot went to parties
and just had catastrophic after
catastrophic I can't even call them
relationships to be honest and then I
decided to become celibate right because
I'm going to become a
monk no temptation I have to conquer sin
and lust and all of these things I'm
going to rise above so really what had
happened at that point psychologically
is I had failed at life and I was
adopting a narcissistic view that I'm
going to be rise above materialism right
so I'm going to start devaluing that
which I had failed which is a big thing
that a lot of people struggle with is
they start to devalue things that they
think that they're bad at because that's
how your ego feels good about it then I
noticed something weird happened when I
stopped worrying about sex people that's
when I met my wife
and suddenly because now like what used
to happen is this my subjective
experience is when I'm talking to a girl
how do I get this girl to like me you
know I have that insecurity we human
beings are empathic so the girls would
detect that insecurity in me because I'm
feeling it right so people will say like
be confident well you can't be confident
it's not something that you can be it's
something that you are not or are not so
how do you cultivate that confidence
with Detachment so I let go of even
wanting a girlfriend I'm going to be CIB
and suddenly women are attracted to me
because now I can be conf because
there's no I'm not trying to achieve
anything so I can be
authentic you know I I remember like
talking to girls and and sort of being
like you know being like hey do you want
to hang out sometime and they'd be like
I have a boyfriend and then I'd be like
cool do you want to invite him right and
and so so we'll get to the Practical
practicalities of it but I think really
letting go of the want and this is where
in in the yogic system there's this idea
called Vaga which means Detachment so
this is also in stoicism so this whole
idea that we want to detach from the
outcomes of our actions and we want to
focus on the actions themselves because
I can't I can't I don't know if this
makes sense I can never get a girlfriend
is literally impossible does that make
sense to you not yet okay so what can
you do to get a
girlfriend uh you can to shorthand it
you can be the thing that she is very
attracted to and if you the thing that
she's very attracted to does that mean
that she's going to be your girlfriend
yes yes I would disagree right so I I
know lots of people who are attracted to
all kinds of people but choose not to
date them for any number of reasons sure
be the thing the girl wants maybe would
have been a better way to say it so
here's the reason you can never get a
girlfriend because there is another
conscious being at play mhm so you can
never control what she does that's one
way to look at it I think that's can you
control another human being yes I know
where you're getting at so I'll instead
of giving cheeky answers I will just say
this uh every literally every word
you're saying I think is so bang on
accurate but I think it is misleading to
not acknowledge that you can do things
to sway somebody's opinion about you for
better or worse that you can have very
profound influence so I will use this
bit of my own life
experience uh like you in high school I
was just unbelievably bad with women um
I was once in bed with a
woman I was on second base rounding
third and I managed to [ __ ] it up I
still can't believe this is a real story
this is a real story uh and I just did
not understand how to be successful with
women and then when I figured it out the
punchline being what I would have said
no fear of loss what you're calling
Detachment or no
desire once I had no fear of loss and I
presented myself very confidently and I
was I faking it wasn't really faking it
I was like I just no longer care what
they think about me I'm going to be me
because I I had come to believe it was
the winning strategy so my confidence
was in the strategy itself go ahead yeah
so I I don't disagree with you at all
but I I still think oh I guess I well
let me let me finish that that story
once I did that then my hit rate went
from 1% to 40% I mean nobody bats a
thousand but it was such a leap forward
that could I I can't force anybody to do
anything but man when you are a key that
unlocks a certain number of doors and
it's a good number of doors all of a
sudden you feel like oh my God the key I
just needed the
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camera so I I'm with you so so and I say
this as a doctor right so let me let me
kind of agree and disagree with you so
as a doctor do I have the power to Save
a Life yes I would say no yes I right so
you learn this you learn this the hard
way in medicine so I trained at Harvard
Medical School I had great teachers we
have amazing equipment and no doctor has
the power over life and
death right so you can you're allowed to
disagree with with that now that doesn't
just because we have no power so we
don't have absolute power let's put it
that way I will agree with that right so
so I think that that's I think we're
basically saying the same thing which is
that and then if you really look at it
then we have all these evidence-based
approaches which are probabilistic which
are more likely to result in what
happens but at the end of the day there
is some element that is outside of your
control and we do not have absolute
power let's call it that so then the
question kind of becomes okay so then
what are the strategies that you want to
employ if you're a man today and you
want women to like you so I think the
first thing and this is where I I kind
of say step away from the goal so step
away with the goal of getting this
person it sounds like you sort of call
this the fear of loss which is step away
from that right be who you are you can
plant a seed and you can water it every
day but you can't make it grow the human
beings if you really look at what human
beings truly have control over we only
have control over this everything else
has some element of Randomness to it I
cannot mind control another human being
I can barely mind control
myself and so this I think is the big
thing is that we get way too caught up
this is my Approach right is we get way
too caught up in trying to get a girl to
like me and I think this is true which
is why you get to the same conclusion is
is you focus on yourself you focus on
Detachment from the outcome and you
focus on the task in the present not
where you want to go so I I think this
may sound surprising but maybe you know
this because you've done your research
right so if you ask me like what's my
goal with healthy gamer and all the work
that I don't have one I really don't I
just show up every single day because I
have no idea if I'm going to be live
tomorrow I do plan for the future
because chances are probabilistically I
will be alive but I don't control life
or death I don't know if the world is
going to end with a nuclear eruption
tomorrow or our magnetic poles are going
to flip or all manner of other things
what do I truly control I just control
what I do the whole problem with people
and women is that we spend so much time
trying to control another human being
how do I get this girl to like me how do
I get my boss to promote me how do I do
this how do I do this how do this we
spend so much energy trying to control
the thing that we fundamentally have the
least control over instead of focusing
on how do I control this how do I could
turn this into the best possible version
of what it is and as you move in that
direction this is when dating will
become way easier so what happened with
me is not only did I get one girlfriend
who eventually became a wife but now I
had even more Detachment so then when I
was working in the hospital suddenly
like all these nurses and stuff started
hitting on me and I was like what the
[ __ ] is this I went through all of my
adolescent and teenage years with women
not batting and eyelash even looking in
my direction they looked in the other
way and I realized that here I am an
authentic guy I I can afford to be smart
I can afford to be funny I don't care
what this girl thinks I'm not trying to
get with her and suddenly this is when
when I start to attract other women so I
think practically what we need to do is
and I'm all for like falling in love and
stuff like that and then go for it right
but even then there's some amount of
Detachment that you can cultivate so
that's what I did which is sort of like
acknowledging that I can even though I'm
love I'm going to enjoy the experience
right let's see where this goes and this
may result in heartbreak but that's part
of life I don't get to choose whether I
get heartbroken or this person falls in
love with me too so that there's a lot
of stuff that you don't control don't
focus on that focus on yourself and then
I'm not saying that focus on yourself to
the point of ignoring other things like
don't just F you know if you go to the
gym every single day but you never
approach a woman it's not going to work
so you have to take the actions but
you're not entitled to the fruits of
your actions so this is where why I
really sort of encourage people to don't
worry about the fruit so this is a
Eastern concept called karma far so
karma means action and far means fruit
so all I'm entitled to in life is what I
do I don't get to control whether my
company is successful or not successful
whether this podcast is successful or
not successful that's not in my control
it's not in your control we can optimize
things we can prepare for them we can
cultivate all the right attitudes but at
the end of the day who knows there could
be this power outage and everything all
the power goes out and then we're so so
what you should really focus on first of
all is don't get overly caught up in one
particular person if you feel love just
acknowledge it observe it notice how
wonderful it is and how painful it is to
be in love focus on what you can control
focus on the actions observe yourself
and the last thing is to try to shed as
much baggage as you can because all of
your
prior
relationships will form things like
resentments conclusions and you will
project your past experience into
current situations in your relationship
which will sabotage your relationship
recognize that each person you are
dating is
a completely new person and what I sort
of see with people who are held back is
they will interpret neutral stimuli in
the dating world as negative based on
their past experience I texted this girl
she didn't text back in 10 minutes that
means she's not into me we make all of
these conclusions based on completely
neutral stimuli the reason she didn't
text you back is maybe her phone died
maybe her phone got stolen there are all
kinds of different things on the
differential
diagnosis but it's the conclusions that
we jump to in our mind that sabotages us
the
most what do you think the role of porn
is in modern
relationships I mean I
don't bad is a short answer so I I don't
really think about porn as tied to
relationships I know that's kind of
really yeah oh yeah and tell me more so
if we look at pornography addiction okay
the science of it everyone thinks that
pornography is about lust about about
relationships with women and it can it
can interfere with that I've absolutely
seen that but let's understand like the
neuroscience and clinical progression of
pornography addiction so first thing
that's interesting with pornography
addiction is prepubertal exposure of
pornography it's correlated with it okay
so people start watching porn at a very
young age when they don't even have the
capability of an erection or maybe they
get an erection it's the first erection
they they have no idea what they're
doing do they
masturbate not usually at the beginning
so it's just like a whoo this is weird
yeah so if you look and this based on my
clinical experience and we'll get to
some things that are research based but
if you look at people basically the
earlier you get exposed to something the
more likely you are your brain is still
developing it's still in its infantile
stages so the younger and more
vulnerable the brain is the more likely
you are to get addicted but when a
9-year-old watches
pornography and their brain starts to
change this has nothing to do with women
at this point right we'll get to how it
can relate to relationships so the
second thing is that any addiction
requires two things the ability to give
pleasure and take away pain it has to
have both and if you really look at what
pornography is really really good at in
the brain it's not even the dopaminergic
part it's the suppression of our
negative emotional circuitry so
pornography addiction is essentially an
emotional regulation
technique that's really what the main
thing that that happens now if you look
at the research of it what correlates
with pornography addiction so this is in
adults it's meaninglessness in life
so one of the two variables that is most
tightly correlated with pornography
addiction is having no reason not to
watch porn so you have to have a reason
and this where when we focus on helping
people with pornography addiction we
don't worry about relationships and
things like that we worry about building
a life so that you can't sit home and
watch porn all the time building
alternative emotional regulation
strategies because porn is so good at it
so this is also something to understand
is that see the sex and the drive to
procreate you'll love this as a
biological reductionist is so powerful
so I tried to understand what part of
the brain does sex affect and there's a
great reference which we can sh share
with your audience if you all want but
it turns out that sex like all the other
parts of our all other functions of the
human mind are located in some part of
the brain so our frontal loes do this
our occipital cortex does this but sex
is every part of the brain every single
neurotransmitter so our whole brain is
devoted to sex so the thing about
pornography is it has a whole brain
effect if we sort of look at even
something like you know a man who has
cancer who's 80 years old still is
producing viable sperm can get it up
occasionally and can impregnate someone
right so our whole biological evolution
is designed for sex and so as a result
this is why pornography addiction is so
powerful because you're recruiting all
of these different parts of the brain
and in different ways and so it's a very
powerful emotional regulation technique
as an aside if you look at the yogi they
say that one state of temporary
Enlightenment is orgasm so if you look
at the State of Mind in orgasm there's
no thought it's a Transcendent State
we're not talking about post-nut Clarity
or prenut anxiety or whatever that
moment of or orgasm is a no mind State
you're not thinking anything you're just
in the moment fully without attachment
without thought with just pure Bliss
that's why everyone's so addicted to it
because it's the quickest way to get to
Temporary
Enlightenment right because it's
blissful
and so then what you can do is you can
practice meditation and what you'll
discover is through good meditation you
will essentially have protracted orgasms
it's the same state of mind and it can
feel
amazing um but going back to pornography
addiction so it's a very powerful
emotional regulator really shuts off
your amydala in your lyic system also
releases some dopamine if you masturbate
and Achieve orgasm but a lot of people
who are uh addicted to pornography watch
way more pornography and it doesn't
always end in masturbation or orgasm wow
which is a lot of people don't know this
um so it's really an emotional
regulation technique now over time this
can absolutely result in problems in
relationships but it's not early on so
I've seen all kinds of relation problems
with relationships in pornography but I
don't think it's due to pornography
addiction so if you have a woman who's
insecure who feels like she can't
satisfy all of her man's needs or or
things like that and she has problems
with him watching porn that can cause
problems pornography relationship uh
pornography addiction can absolutely
cause problems in relationships if Men
start to believe that pornography
is some kind of correlation with
relationships if the women that you see
in in
pornos um you know behave like real
women in real life you're going to get
all screwed up in your relationships but
these are Downstream effects uh one
really good example of this is I I once
had a really you know sad case of a a
young college student who came to me and
said like you know I have a problem is
that I can't achieve a full orgasm and
then I asked him what what do you mean
by you can't achieve a full orgasm and
he's like I I have like you know like I
have the first stage of an orgasm but I
can't get like the full way there and
then like it took me a while like I did
Psychotherapy and stuff and then one day
I I removed all of my prior conceptions
then I asked him what do you mean by
full orgasm tell help me understand like
tell me like what literally happens like
give me like volumes and the problem is
this guy's watching pornography he sees
gallons of ejaculate and he thinks that
and he has a normal volume of ejaculate
which is like 3 to 5 millit and he
doesn't even realize that he's having an
orgasm and he's finishing that is
hysterical right it's crazy so you can
see these kind of Downstream effects but
basically pornography is just like any
other addiction it can affect
relationships but usually doesn't I mean
it does impact relationships but there
isn't as direct of an impact as most
people think it's really interesting um
the porn addiction angle is definitely
one that I'm not nearly as familiar and
so listening to you talk here and in the
research I did is really really eye
openening I think there's another
element to this I'd love to get your
take on it is to want to risk putting
yourself out there for a woman to reject
you've really got to be quite hungry and
I would say there's two motivating
factors there somebody I want to share
my life with and sex and I think sex
certainly for a young man is such a
potent driver that if you're at home and
you're masturbating several times a week
I don't know that you're going to have
the drive especially if you've got video
games staring at you and you know Friday
night could be go to the bar risk
rejection or stay home and play video
games with my friends online feel like
an actual athlete man for people if
you've never played video games like I
am in my late 40s and let me tell you
when I play video games I feel like I I
am an athlete I feel like I'm competing
I am playing to win I've Gotten Good at
something something it's incredible so I
can feel like an athlete and play this
thing that I absolutely love and I can
see the most attractive naked women
and have pseudo sex seems like a pretty
good thing when I combine that with the
data on birth rates it gets terrifying
because birth rates are
plummeting yeah so I'm I'm uh I yeah I
mean I agree I I think that like so the
here here's the basic problem with
technology right and and uh I recently
wrote a book for parents that's coming
out in a couple weeks but so I think the
basic problem with technology is that
people have figured
out how to give the brain what it always
wanted in simpler ways in less risk in
risk-free ways so if we sort of look at
all of this biological drive to have sex
why it's because it was necessary for
procreation and it used to be hard to
have an orgasm right you have to it
requires a partner maybe I don't know
how long talking about guys here what
what do you mean you think it was hard
for guys to have an orgasm no I mean in
the sense of like sexuality and stuff so
like I mean I know I was just wondering
about I don't know how how many years
ago human beings started masturbating I
imagine it was a long time ago monkeys
monkeys yeah yeah so I I realized I was
about to make that comment but so you
have you have a lot of evolutionary
drive to do this thing and then what
happens though is that I think that the
way that pornography has grown and if
you look at all Technologies like so you
talked about you know being an athlete
so the problem is that technology people
have figured out how to activate some
parts of your brain so you do get that
dopamine kick you do get like all of the
like not all but you get like some level
of activation which is what really
motivates you and then the problem is
that your brain has a choice so I can
either do it the hard way and get even
less of a dopamine activation or I can
do it the Easy r risk-free way and it's
really about the risk-free and I think
that's what you kind of really touched
on with this sort whole idea of going to
the bar and getting rejected right and
at some point your brain starts to say
like it's not worth the trouble and
people will start to consciously believe
that right that's why they sort of
that's how they become incels or
whatever and and so it it just becomes
the world is becoming lopsided once
technology enters the picture because we
can get
50% of our brain structures activated or
even hyperactivated there's a really
fascinating study on beetles there's
this population of beetles that were
going out of uh were not going extinct
but in a local area and it turned out
the reason that they were becoming
endangered is because they were having
sex with beer bottles and so people were
like this is really weird but there's a
particular green beer bottle which The
Beatles were trying to procreate with
and then people sort of discovered that
okay there are ways to create something
called a supera normal stimulus which
then these beetles are drawn to so
something about the way that they
perceive this green beer bottle makes it
look like a super hot female Beetle and
in the same way if you look at the
trends in pornography tits are getting
bigger higher resolution louder sound
virtual reality so we're creating these
super normal stimuli that are drawing Us
in and now the brain has a choice it's
like I can either have no risk for free
at my home and jerk off or I can go to a
bar try to talk to someone it makes me
feel I get rejected right and then as I
get a social skills atrophy it starts to
become harder and harder to engage with
women and then it becomes a vicious
cycle where people then just tap out of
the game they're just done with it and
this is probably a piece of why we don't
have why we have low birth rates but I I
I don't think it's I think that's has
other issues too have you heard of the
um gooning
subreddit there's at least a million it
might be multi-million people so so I'm
just now learning about this utterly
fascinating so uh massive subreddit
gooning is basically going into your
bedroom or whatever setting up
oftentimes multis screens and saying I'm
going to be here for a while pulling up
frequently multiple pornographic movies
on the different screens and basically
trying to Edge and make it last as long
as you can now from what I know in the
literature about pornography if you're
spending that kind of time on
pornography that pornography is going to
get weirder and weirder and if I'm
understanding the subreddit write one of
the most popular forms of pornography is
um transgender porn and going back to
the book uh a billion Wicked thoughts
they talk about that that as you
habituate to the type of porn you look
for more and more extreme uh novel maybe
an even better way to think about it um
what do you think about that what does
that tell us about where we're headed so
I I think it's it's back to the beer
bottles right so so what we're doing is
as we acclimatize to a particular
stimulus our dopamine levels will go
down right so this is why this is why
people overdose when they get addicted
to opiates because the original dose
doesn't work anymore because there's
homeostatic tolerance so I need to up
the dose on the signal to chase that old
high same thing happens with pornography
when I watch pornography every day I
climatize to the stimulus need more
hardcore
porn so I think this is just the new
version of that it's going to keep going
by the way so as you goon twice a week
you're going to need to do more and
that's just the N the nature of of this
kind of stuff so there'll be transgender
porn there will be more hardcore porn
there's so we see this where there's
like basically you need a stronger and
stronger stimulus to chase that old
dopam energic rush and it it looks like
people have sort of stumbled into this
right and they're making it like an art
form of gooning where we're going to try
to work together as a community of a
million people to figure out how to
squeeze as much dopamine as we can from
this particular thing so I think this is
like exactly what I'm talking about we
like as a human race like we're not
going to nuclear war is not going to
[ __ ] us it's going to be stuff like
haptic feedback and virtual girlfriends
and things like that and someone is
going to figure out and this is what
happened with video games someone is
going to figure out that Within AI
girlfriend the way to really get someone
addicted is we have to approximate the
real experience as much as possible
which means once in a while your AI
girlfriend is going to pick a fight with
you and she's actually going to hang up
on you when you call her and they're
going to exhibit I'm I don't know if
this is true or not but I would bet
money that over time this is exactly
what we're going to see and as we do
that we're activating other parts of the
brain and we're making this virtual
experience approximate the real thing
because I'm sure you're familiar with
random reinforce sches right so right
now the problem with porn is that any
time I watch it it's always available
the moment that someone figures out that
denying someone their pornography 20% of
the time means that they are going to
come to your website more that's so
crazy right so gooning is just one
example there's a thousand other
examples of how porn will evolve as long
as we as human beings are going to rely
on the outside world to satisfy this
it's just the most recent manifestation
what do you think's really going to
happen with AI girlfriends like does it
freak you out like are you waking up in
the middle of the night in a cold sweat
because I know you have kids and
thinking oh God no I'm not waking up I
think it could be the end of the human
race but I'm not freaking out about
it right so if the human race ends it
ends like what you know I can't control
that so like this is where I there's no
I'm not going to prevent you know I
can't stop the tide of AI girlfriends in
fact I may have just leaked something
that will you know the first pornography
site to start denying pornography to
their users they may figure this out I
may have helped them but I think what's
going to happen so this is really
interesting in the late 90s we developed
an interesting technology in medicine
called haptic feedback and this was
developed because we wanted to do remote
physical diagnosis so literally what
happened if someone developed a glove
where you could palpate a breast in one
location and then that glove sends
signals to a different glove where the
person feels the resistance so you could
literally feel like a cancerous nodule
in someone else's breast remotely
because it pushes against you and we
have these kind of like you know things
like fleshlights and stuff like that and
I think at some point someone is going
to combine all of this stuff into a
girlfriend that throws temper tantrums
that is there for you maybe even like
kind of pretend cheats on you and then
has all this psychologically like
activating stuff along with physical
feedback fleshlights virtual reality
it'll all get integrated and then the
human race is
[ __ ] that's a very terrifying picture
uh What I find most interesting I mean
there's two things one that you are very
because you can't control the outcomes
you are very fatalistic about what might
happen that's certainly interesting what
do you mean by fatalistic that ah the
world might end or human race might end
so what it is what it is so I'm trying
to stop it but I can't stop it you can't
have absolute authority over whether it
stops just to play my own little game
there with myself uh yes and then the
other part that I find interesting is
that I do think the stakes are
extraordinarily High I agree with you on
that very much but that you think a key
part of making this all work is a lot of
uh a certain percentage of negative
things that the AI girlfriend to be
effective is going to pick a fight with
you that she's going to you said po like
flirt with the idea that maybe she's
cheated on you why would that up your
attachment to it because that's what
happens in regular humans right so you
think about this so you have an amazing
wife of 21 years yeah married 21 yeah
right so like and what would happen to
you emotionally if someone else
started not quite flirting right but
started doing something to pull your
wife's attention away from you and she's
not sending you any kind of signal that
she's going to be unfaithful or anything
like that what do you think that would
do to you emotionally and like to your
attachment to the relationship yeah it's
interesting um for me because that is in
my insecurity my wife has done such an
amazing job making me feel like her
number one ah
uh I that wouldn't make me insecure I
would be happy for her if someone is
flirting with her and that she still got
it and all that um but I trust me I am
hyper aware of the the psychological
response of if you think that your woman
like the uh study show if you believe
that your woman has been near other men
and had a chance to cheat your ejaculate
volume goes up substantially so you get
into sperm competition and like this is
this is part of the reason why male porn
is way more likely to be multiple men
and a single female because that cue
going back to how you get into
transsexual porn even if you identify as
a straight guy in these gooning uh
subreddits
the the brain is the male brain is
hardwired to be hyperconscious of the
present presence of other penises which
is weird uh but nonetheless true so
anyway while I might have a mildly
atypical conditioned response because of
the being with my wife for 21 years I
certainly get the thing but that's that
is really interesting and distressing
yeah so in this case it's atypical right
but you just cited a bunch of research
that pushes it in the direction no
you're 100% right right I'm just super
unnerved because it means that we're
going to be knowingly triggering anxiety
in people to get them to come back
jealousy anxiety and then and then oh my
God it goes even deeper than that
because she's going to she's going to
like start to cheat on you but she won't
ever do it right and then she's going to
say I'm so sorry I should have paid
attention to you more and and like I'll
never do that again and then what's it's
going to be it's it's such a mess it's
not just the jealousy it's the jealousy
followed by the
unwavering commitment that I would never
leave you and that's going to be like a
drug I mean this is what we're talking
about right this is what all of our
movies are about all of our romance is
about this idea that she's going to be
with you forever and now we're Way
Beyond pornography now we're we're into
the core of humanity which the study on
ejaculate volume is fascinating this is
what I mean it's not just the jealousy
right then she's going to apologize I'm
so
sorry and then imagine what that would
do emotionally to the person when she's
apologizing to you because she's hurt
your feelings he girlfriends don't do
that right now right now they're all
servile they don't they don't piss you
off or anything like that but if you
look at what bonds human beings this
Dynamic tension that you talked about so
someone's going to figure out how to add
that to an AI girlfriend and we will
approximate reality closer and closer
and closer this is what we did with
video games video games used to be
single player now there's a community
aspect what a lot of parents that I work
with don't understand is that games are
no longer games you can be a programer
you can be a streamer so games have
moved into relationships theyve moved
into Community they moved into career
they've moved into success I had
aspirations to go to Harvard when I was
16 years old and now 16y olds have
aspirations to be streamers so
technology is is in is starting to
approximate the real world and Trigger
these parts of our brain and pornography
is going to do it
too yeah that that is for sure what what
advice do you give to people about uh
going down the path of AI girlfriends
avoid it like the plague don't even
touch it never look at it or no it's
fine it's like porn as long as you're
not addicted you're good yeah so I I I
think uh with with all technology it's
just recognize that if you have a life
that is worth living the addiction will
melt away on its own right so I had a
video game addiction we're healthy gamer
now I teach my kids how to play video
games I play games with them the whole
point is that with these AI girlfriends
you're going to be vulnerable to that if
you have no other substantial
relationships right so I think the
advice that I give to everyone is build
a life that is worth living and oddly
enough I don't even focus so much on the
addiction because we have to have a
solid foundation from which to combat
addiction and this is a big problem that
a lot of people make even like so they
teach us this in in addiction Psychiatry
that you know if someone has a
depression that is going to be fueling
the addiction and if they have an
addiction that's going to be fueling the
addiction I the depression so you have
to do something called dual diagnosis
treatment where you have to tackle both
at the same time so I think the biggest
mistake that many people make with
trying to overcome an addiction is that
they are not acknowledging the factors
in their life that are driving them
towards the addiction in the first place
and you have to tackle those things and
then you can deal with the addiction way
easier let me ask right now I think that
the tide of culture is sweeping men out
to a cold dark sea what is it that's
going wrong um I think that the world
has changed and we are not allowing men
to change so if you sort of look at it
right so like we have a certain idea of
what it means to be a
man um and the expectations around for
being a man have not changed but the
world has changed so just as a simple
example I think 70 to 80% of women want
the man that they date to earn more
money than they Doh but 60% % or more of
people who graduate from college are
women so like the world is changing but
we're not sort of adjusting expectations
for men that's problem number one I
think problem number two is
that men are as a class the only group
that we do not allow to suffer so
there's sort of this idea that men are
privileged which there's data for in in
a lot of ways um but the problem and
this is just my work as a psychiatrist
so like you know I work with a lot of
men who are suicidal and one of the
crazy things that we assume is that if
you're suicidal it means you're mentally
ill but when I was going through
residency like I started out assuming
all the men who I worked with who were
suicidal were mentally ill but as I
started to become familiar with mental
illness I quickly found that like the
majority of men that I work with who are
suicidal are not actually mentally ill
they have no malfunction of their mind
their life is so genuinely difficult
that it just becomes logic iCal to
choose suicide as like your only option
because to stay in the life that you
have today is completely untenable can I
just draw a line into that for a second
okay so it's your life is so bad that it
is logical to contemplate suicide Absol
that's super terrifying uh tell me more
how so the expectations of men that's
certainly one thing what
for it to be logical to contemplate
suicide a lot more things are going to
have to be piled on them yeah so let's
just start like so when I first stumbled
upon this I was like maybe I'm wrong so
I looked at the research and it it's
staggering but one study for example
shows that 50% of men who commit suicide
have no history or evidence of mental
illness so if we sort of look at it
right we assume that this is like a
malfunction that people aren't seeing
things clearly but as I've worked with a
lot of men who are very suicidal their
lives they they just feel incredibly
trapped and Incredibly alone and these
are people that if you look on the
outside you would look at these people
and they would be incredibly successful
these are people like bankers at places
like Goldman Sachs like they have
everything that many people envy and so
it can be very confusing to think what
why is this person complaining and then
we we create a really dangerous ground
because if you're in a place where you
don't get you're not allowed to
complain then suddenly if you're
struggling in some way and you try to
share something with other people you
say hey I'm struggling and then people
say but what are you complaining about
you're privileged you're lucky you make
so much money you're so tall you're so
handsome you have no right to complain
and the moment that we remove that then
this person has no way to get their
suffering actually
addressed and oftentimes what I find is
that you know men
are not not only do we create this kind
of situation but that we expect men to
do a lot of things that are like very
dangerous and we expect men to be
self-sacrificing um you know so it's
like women and children first which I
I'm not I'm not against that is a rule
of thumb by the way um it it's just that
if we're doing this to men we should at
least acknowledge it so like I remember
when I was a a seconde resident working
on an inpatient unit on a schizophrenia
unit so these are where people are
actively psychotic or actively manic so
they're like hallucinating their violent
um you know anytime there's a violent
patient uh I was working in a hospital
with four other Physicians we were all
on the same floor and the other four
Physicians were women and anytime
there's a violent patient it's an
unspoken rule that the women step back
and the men step forward there's no
literally unspoken no one ever said hey
because you're a man you have to step
forward what would happen is someone
from the staff would come and get me and
then I would step into the room with the
other men so we sort of expect men to
sacrifice and you know it's kind of
weird because you you're not allowed to
say as man like I don't want to do that
right you're not even allowed to say
this is hurtful to me or dangerous to me
or unfair in some way um because you're
privileged which in a lot of ways you
are as a man like I certainly have grown
up with a lot of privilege so I think
that there's just a a Nuance there that
everyone is so black and white with the
way that we sort of think about the
experience of men that we there's no
space for the suffering that men
experience okay uh I think this is
really profound there's a lot of
different threads to pull in here so
would it be fair in your mind to
categorize there's two kinds of problems
that we have we've got inside problems
we've got outside problems so outside
problems um social media uh changing
expectations of um women going up and
holding their expectations the
same uh then we've got the inside
problem which is I have all the success
that anyone could want people Envy me
but I still don't feel good and I could
process through that if somebody would
only let me talk about it but I'm not
able to talk about it and so now I'm in
a death Loop
of there probably is an answer because
my life is pretty good but it doesn't
feel good because I can't
process yeah so so even in that we see
another challenge so like you say well
we're not allowed to talk about it so
there's like another really simple thing
that I recently realized which is if you
look at the the field of Psychiatry the
field of Psychiatry has all kinds of
gender related biases and and let's
remember that just because we're biased
in one direction towards a particular
gender does not mean that there can be a
concurrent bias against a different
gender so we're biased against women in
Psychiatry for particular reasons like a
really good example of that is um the
hormonal fluctuations and how they
impact mental health so we sort of think
about diagnosis as static like once you
have ADHD you have ADHD but there's a
ton of data that shows that menstruation
menstrual cycles basically affect all
symptoms of all mental illnesses but
that's not something that any of us are
taught in medical school let Al let
alone Psychiatry residency so but if we
kind of go to man so a really good
example is that this idea that talking
about your emotions is the gold standard
of processing them so if you look at the
history of Psychiatry 70% of patients
are women 70% % of therapists are women
and so I started to discover as I worked
with more and more men that there are
even studies about this so if you look
at studies of couples counseling the
reason that men are reluctant to go to
couples's counseling is because they are
not good with verbal expression of their
emotional state so anytime they go into
coup's counseling they feel outgunned
because they're is a heterosexual couple
their their female partner is able to
like articulate their emotional
experience better and the therapist ends
up it feels like the therapist ends up
understanding and siding with the female
partner more so like as men we just
don't talk about our emotions and this
is where the society jumps to a
conclusion and says okay so this is a
problem that you guys have as men you
need to learn how to talk to about your
emotions more but that therein lies the
bias we never stop to ask ourselves hold
on a second if men are not very good at
talking about their emotions are there
different ways to manage emotions and if
you look at historically the way that
men manage emotions we have all kinds of
things that are different we are much
more physical and that's viewed as a
negative thing right to be Vis like
instead of being physical like you need
to talk about your problems if you have
a problem with someone you should
articulate it out so already we're
starting to see that the way that our
society judges particular things we
place articulation of emotions above
physical expression of emotions have you
heard Jordan Peterson's quote on this uh
I'm G I'll paraphrase it but I think I'm
pretty close to verbatim women have
probably done to men what Humanity did
to
wolves what's that mean the unsaid thing
is domesticated that when I hear you
talk and if this is inaccurate to what
you're trying to convey definitely stop
me but this is my worldview that uh
women are a civilizing force and the
more we unleash women to achieve be in
every element of soci iety uh they've
got birth control they're no longer
forced through biological necessity to
stay much closer to the home that you
will see that civilizing Force really
become extreme now that sounds awesome
until it becomes pathological so I'm a
big believer that you need Dynamic
tension between two opposing forces and
that's actually how Society moves
forward so male and female um opposing
is probably the wrong word but that gets
you close enough they they are very
different and you want that Dynamic
tension between the two you don't want
either one to be in complete control and
anybody that's researched uh the like
Mongol takeover of the known world it's
like when when masculinity gets
completely pathological ah we're just
going to kill everybody in this Village
so uh for sure there is a place where
that goes where it becomes pathological
now what I what I think is happening
right now is that we're seeing uh
feminine pathology come into play where
men are being told that they're sort of
way of being um I I'll even back it off
the structures are just made in a way
that reward a female mode of existence
so whether that's school and you're able
to sit down pay attention you mature a
little faster all of that um or just
don't be aggressive don't um speak
physically etc etc yeah so I think
there's a lot there that I agree with
and some there that I I wouldn't
characterize it that way so I think the
the main uh disagreement that I have is
women did to men what humans did to
wolves I I don't think it's women that
did it right so this is where I I think
there's a there's a very common attitude
which is that if things are biased
against men in some way that the women
are to blame or feminism is to blame or
the de decay of the whatever whatever
particular thing is to blame so my
experience as a psychiatrist is that
it's never that simple so everything is
multifactorial and you know we men are
responsible for the world that we live
in just as much as the women are so I
you know I I don't that's the only part
that like so I I work with a lot of
people for example who are incels and
incels are a great example of like you
know if someone else
suffers they deserve compassion but
incels are the the one group of the
population that and they also trigger
this because of the way that they use
language and stuff they're not you know
they really incite people to dislike
them because they say a lot of very
dislikable things and at the same time
you know these are people that are
struggling in some way and they will
demonize women for their problems the
majority of women I mean the majority of
incels I've worked with their problem is
themselves just as or or even more so
than the women they have so many
cognitive biases that they blame women
for this they blame women for this and
that's not like a that's a foolish way
to go through life because the moment
that you blame women for your problems
you lose control over your life you
don't take responsibility because you
can't control women you can't control
anything outside of yourself and so
that's why incels sort of spiral so hard
is because they are misdiagnosing their
problem see if their the problem is
women you can't change what they do or
what they think or anything like that so
then you surrender control to this
external force and then you're screwed
so the only thing that I kind of
disagree with is the attribution that
women sort of did this intentionally
because it's not like they're a
monolithic cult that has meetings and
plans to domesticate men I I I don't
that hasn't been my experience maybe
that's going on but okay so I think
there's a a really interesting Dynamic
you're bringing up so I think it is
important that people come to at least a
hypothesis which is all I will say that
I have and for people that have never
heard this explained before I I will
differentiate between a hypothesis a
thesis and something I consider a fact
so a hypothesis is basically a guess
hopefully an informed guess a thesis is
every other hypo hthis has fallen away
and this is the last one that remains
invalidated and then a fact is like if
you do this thing you're going to get
this outcome predictably every time okay
so if we're willing to sort of take that
know that I'm at the hypothesis end
which is why I'm so interested in
bringing people on to talk about the
subject uh I see things going in the
wrong direction I see male suicide rates
and female suicide rates quite frankly
going up I see more girls cutting
themselves more men actually committing
suicide uh depression anxiety rates
literally skyrocketing I mean absolutely
insane uh and so and and that is the tip
of a very large Iceberg of data about
things that I will say point to a
decline in human flourishing which for
any longtime listeners of my show know
that's my norstar so every word out of
my mouth is predicated on that's where
I'm trying to get to so I see all this
data that says okay we're moving in the
wrong direction in fact I will quote you
uh the only area of medicine that is
moving backwards is mental health so hey
all this amazing modern stuff but
something is wrong because mental health
is going in the exact wrong direction at
the time of sort of peak everything okay
everything should be okay okay so here's
my hypothesis on this so my hypothesis
is
that men have become
domesticated maybe not by women though
my hypothesis would be women play a huge
role in this that the birth control pill
plays a huge role in this that women as
somebody who's been married for 21 years
and believes that my wife is the best
thing that has ever happened to me and
the amount of domestication she has
introduced in my life has been
incredible so I don't want people to
hear me mischaracterizing women which I
think are amazing but a domestication is
happened I have a hypothesis that I I
will simply plant now but maybe we don't
talk about it right now I think for
society to work well people have to be
chased by a lion metaphorical is fine
but but they need some lurking danger
that they have to contend with
constantly uh so you've got
domestication the eradication of most
sort of lions at the the door and if we
can and many other things social media
being a huge one just the general
internet age the velocity and volume of
information uh changing social mores the
pill I mean it is a mountain of things
that have happened but those
things if not accurate ACC identified as
causal then we will never be able to
figure out what the path out is so to
speak to an
incell I think identifying a change in
women and the way that they interact
with the world is accurate it is
accurate even to say that that creates a
problematic Dynamic that has to be
negotiated and figure
out it does not mean that it's anybody's
responsibility other than their own to
navigate that
well okay so uh it's so interesting how
I agree with so much of what you so
there premises that I agree with I come
to different conclusions and there are
conclusions that I agree with but I come
from different
premises um so let me start by this what
do you mean by
domestication um I think that men are
these are averages men are
more risk-taking men are more driven men
will do more extreme things to Garner
the attention of a woman uh men tend to
be more
aggressive um they tend to at least in
the narrow snapshot of humanity where we
have recorded history well um men have
been encouraged to be um
militaristic to conquer to be strong and
even though the scope of that went from
Conquering the known world to cities to
your job to just making sure that you
protect your household it's been the
same idea but it really has been sort of
this ever shrinking Circle um and as
somebody who reads about history
obsessively it's gonna people will be
hardpressed to convince me that that
isn't the story of History so so what
you're saying by domestication is that
like we used to be more militaristic but
there's like there isn't stuff to
conquer anymore it's probably better to
look at the individual and say the value
system that we encouraged men to adopt I
would say was very in line with their
biology and while at times again from a
historical perspective at times so
appalling that I'm not saying just
because something is that it ought to be
history is appalling I mean it will curl
your eyelashes it is insane but
nonetheless so the domestication is and
if you I I mentioned this before we
started rolling there's a book called a
billion Wicked thoughts in that book
they put forth that basically the
central tenant of female sexual desire
is to tame a man to tame the the best
man it's the Beauty and the Beast myth
that he is a beast that is locked away
in his castle and I'm the only one
that's able to break through and see his
heart and so men become integrated only
through the female touch it's actually a
great story and pretty close to reality
I would say so I that I think there is
an amount of domestication that's
positive and I think we've now spilled
over into
pathology okay so and by domestication
you mean the curbing of militaristic or
aggressive tendencies I swore I was not
going to let you flip this interview
around on me cuz I know you are so good
at this no no I I just want to
understand the language that you're
using I'm not trying well if you want to
flip it I can do that too but that I'm
leaving on the back side that's on the
back burner right so if you want to flip
it the question that I have is you made
this kind of interesting statement that
you know your wife is the best thing
that happened to you and it's kind of
like as we talk about men's issues
you'll notice this we as public figures
cannot talk about men's issues without
commenting about how women are awesome
don't you think that's important I think
it's important I think it's very
important because what would happen if
you didn't say that I I would mislead
people so here is my goal nothing has
given me more joy in my life by a
country mile and this is somebody who's
made a lot of money been celebrated all
that nothing has brought me as much joy
as sharing a life with my wife I mean
just unbelievable orders of magnitude
better than everything else so I'm
trying to acknowledge what's happened
and say okay like now that we know now
that we know having an adversarial
relationship with women would be the
dumbest possible thing you could do red
pill Community I'm talking to
you you want a partner you want an equal
so I just want to just chime in about
the red pull community so I think one
thing since we're talking about men's
issues um thank you so much for
explaining that by the way that was that
was great um so I I think the
interesting thing is everyone talks
about the rise of like toxic masculinity
right so there's there's really only one
place remember I always said men are not
allowed to suffer so I think one of the
things we have to remember is that if
something is rising within our society
there is a like there's almost like a
darwinian pressure for that thing to
rise so everyone can sort of decry toxic
masculinity which by the way I don't
also don't know how to define really
because it seems that we Define toxic
masculinity as that which that about men
or a particular man which I do not like
in this moment that's the most universal
definition that I've been able to
understand as a psychiatrist because
there's a lot disagreement but if we
kind of look at the red pill Community
the interesting thing about the red pill
Community is they're the only community
that allows men to suffer so if a man
today says I am struggling the most
common thing that they hear in return is
that you are privileged you should not
be
struggling um which also by the way is
an interesting bias about the way that
we we treat men which is that men are
designed to be the masculine ideal is
independent right and to not need help
from someone else so the interesting
thing is that the red pill Community is
the only community that says if you if
you're if you're struggling yeah you are
struggling because you suck right and
like they're the only ones that say yes
your life is hard here is a way to make
it better and so I think one of the
biggest problems that we see with men
right now is that they have nowhere else
to go where someone at least accepts the
premise that your life is hard now I
think there's a lot of toxicity that
comes out of the red pill Community
because it's born I've worked with a lot
of incels and red pillars and things
like that and I think that you know it's
it's almost textbook like avoidant
attachment kind of theory sort of stuff
and literally every single one that I've
worked with has had some kind of
incredibly traumatic experience with a
woman that they then generalize to women
as a whole which I think is a big
mistake um so I I just wanted to kind of
toss that in but going back to your your
hypothesis I think the the main thing
that I would kind of say is that I just
don't operate at the level that you do
so you're kind of thinking about
historic things which I'm a big fan of
history and things like that but you
know my clinical practice is an
individual and what I've sort of found
is that even if and I agree with some of
these trends that you're discussing
right so we as a society we've become
less aggressive um for sure but I I tend
to find that there's a lot of individual
variability that at the same time
mirrors some of the trends that we've
talked about like so the increase in
suicidality rate the worsening of mental
health so I think there's kind of global
Trends and the reason that I don't quite
jump on board with some of your
conclusions is because there's a lot of
individual variability but I think
that's just uh give me the things that
you think I'm most off base
about um man so many things so so for
example like I don't I don't remember
them now but Ju Just as an example so
like you know if you look at even if we
look at the Mongols so I don't know that
I would agree that what the Mongols did
is a mascul uh a a manifestation of
masculinity G toai interesting right so
so why do we say how would you
characterize the the Mongol I have no
idea but why is it gender related right
so out of culture religion sociopathy of
their leader a lack of empathy you know
cultural divisions a culture that
perhaps has been trampled by other
cultures and is bred hate for a very
long period of time that's kind of my
point is that I I think that it's like
I'm not saying that it isn't masculine
I'm just saying that I I don't I have
not
studied Mongol invasions so I've studied
a lot of invasions like of in the Indian
subcontinent and things like that and
there have been like Invaders right
there's the Crusades there's kud and
ibach who came from Turkey into like
Northern India there's all these like
mugal Invaders who basically destroyed a
lot of temples and things like that and
you could say that that's masculinity
right you can make an argument for it
but I I think there's just so many other
cultural ethnic Rel religious forces at
play that I wouldn't just jump to that
conclusion interesting so just to put a
point on that I would say
um I could at least give you the I will
briefly give you the reasons why I think
that it is tied to masculinity though I
agree wholeheartedly with something you
said earlier which is none of this is
single factorial this is always going to
be incredibly
complicated however so I have a base
assumption that everything and this is
ultimately you and I are going to um get
into this I think later in the interview
it' be better uh I I am a complete
materialist so your brain drives your
behavior your biology drives your
behavior and while I completely agree
with you that at the level of the
individual you almost can't make any
predictions whatsoever but at the
population level Things become a
mathematical certainty so that's me
paraphrasing a very famous quote about
men basically any individual man is is a
complete mystery but men at the
population level are a mathematical
certainty um that I agree with and so
anyway without derailing on Mongol
history no I mean I I I think so that
that's it's a great example of so many
things that I agree with and so many
things that I disagree with so one
simple thing is that things are
multifactorial but that doesn't mean
that we can't understand them right so I
I think that stuff can be incredibly
understood very very well despite the
fact that they're multiactor
I completely agree that population based
stuff gets us closer to quote unquote
truth than individuality so I'm with you
there but I think there's also like
other examples of of you know gender so
for example like if we look at men as
being masculine there ways of conquering
that aggressiveness that men have done
historically for thousands of years a
simple example is a yogi right so the
the simple idea of of a man who is very
very happy content doing well in life is
sort of like you know I even ideally
happy you could look at someone like
Buddha who attained mocha presumably um
or Enlightenment and I I think that's
kind of an so I I just don't know how
that when you make some of the
statements that you make I don't know
how those kinds of examples fit into
your worldview I'm not saying you're
wrong by any means but you know when
you're talking about this this
mathematical Global idea of like what
men are and aggressiveness like I'm just
really curious how you reconcile that
with the idea of someone like a Buddha
or a
monk probably be an easier question let
me first ask do you believe that men
have a nature again on average on
average any individual this may not hold
true to but do you believe that they
have a
nature on average that is different than
the female nature undoubtedly okay so
then this will become for me for us to
figure out a path forward which I think
is what we both share share I have a
base assumption that drives all of my
thinking which is that um 50% of biology
is or 50% of the way you are is the hard
wirring of your biology I think 50% of
the way you are is changeable and
malleable and I spend the vast majority
of my life looking at the 50% that's
malleable but I think that part of the
disconnect in the modern era is there
there is a subset of people who believe
that you can divorce your theories your
policies your um treatment of men or
women and completely divorce it from a
biological reality and so my thing is
just hey whatever your hypothesis thesis
fact is if it isn't in alignment with
Biology we have an innate problem and so
going back to the idea that I'm I'm this
all started because I was characterizing
the the modern moment that we're living
in in terms of what the
female personality type that's a
probably really lame way of summing this
up but when that becomes pathologized
and it becomes all about reputation
savaging it becomes about trying to um
overly mother remove all obstacles make
sure there are no Lions etc etc it
creates a problem the only reason I
brought up the other stuff was so people
don't think I think well guys are
perfect and women are now [ __ ] things
up just saying hey this you you want
them both in in a dynamic tension
between the two of them and when you
have that it's amazing when you don't it
can become pathological in either
direction yeah so I I I think that that
makes a lot of sense and by the way this
a fantastic conversation dud Tom you are
something else man that is exceedingly
kind um all right so to make this all
useful so we sort of agree on some
things disagree on other things but our
real goal right now is to figure out
okay there are a set of problems guys
really are going through a hard time
absolutely uh I think you and I both
agree that it's like hey I don't care
how or why the deck is stacked against
you probably good to identify those
things because it will help inform how
you're going to get out of this it's up
to you to get out of this hating women
being a dick that's not going to help
you so one do you feel like the table is
set in terms of the major problems
because we sort of only touched on
social media a little bit so so I I
think so I mean I I I think so despite
the fact that you know I'm focusing on
individuality and I I think for the lon
share of things I I think we're we're on
the same page that there is a global
change that's happening especially as it
relates to uh me uh gender
Dynamics um men are getting crushed in a
lot of ways that a lot of these
are um societal forces why which is why
we're seeing men as a population suffer
right so for men to suffer there must be
a systemic problem in my opinion anyway
people will disagree with that which I
think is part of the problem is that we
are willing to acknowledge systemic
problems for ethnicities and genders
except for men which I think is the
systemic problem so so I I think that no
one is really debating that for
example um you know if you look at I
remember I I worked in a jail for a few
months and it took me three weeks before
I saw my first Caucasian patient working
in jail whoa and and so that was I
realized one day like I walked in I was
like something is different today like
what what is it and that's when I
realized I've gone three weeks without
seeing seeing a single Caucasian person
so when we look at things like that
we're very quick as a society to say um
that you know it's not that people who
are non-caucasian or criminals we we
don't think that that has to do with
their ethnicity or anything like that
we've figured out that there are
socioeconomic factors there's systemic
factors which are responsible for Crime
but when it comes to things like men and
violence there is an overwhelming sort
of belief that the reason that the
majority of people in jail are men is
not because of a systemic bias it's
because men are biologically more
violent right so people will make that
argument very much so what I sort of see
one of the biggest challenges I see with
men is that we as a society are not
willing to afford men the
same status as a class as we do for
other people who need
help and that in turn is partially
because there are very many very
successful men right so if you look at
the the people who have the most money
the most power whatever those will
predominantly be men but we don't sort
of acknowledge that still the majority
of people who suffer from addictions the
majority of people who kill themselves
like 80% of people who kill themselves
are men and somehow we as a soci society
have difficulty reconciling these two
things so I think we agree there and
then I think we also agree that there's
a lot of individual focus and
responsibility to deal with the world
that we're in so I think we're like
completely set fair yeah I just have one
question of what you just said so um do
you think that men's propensity for
violence at the extreme of the bell
curve has anything to do with the
incarceration rate discrepancy between
men and
women has anything to do undoubtedly if
you had to swag a percentage small
really yeah so what's the major driving
Factor in your mind for why more men end
up in prison it's just the the society
makes it impossible for them to deal
with their emotions which driv them to
drugs and alcohol that's probably a
little bit beyond my scope like to
answer but just to give you all a simple
example so we look at abuse right so we
criminalize physical abuse and sexual
abuse more than em emotional abuse but
my experience as a psychiatrist is that
physical abuse is not actually more
damaging than emotional abuse abuse so I
and I think I I would want to say that
the majority of mental health
professionals out there would agree with
this that it's not like physical abuse
is objectively worse than emotional
abuse so if we sort of look at the ways
in which there are gender specific ways
in which people will Express violent
tendencies so ostracization emotional
abuse versus physical abuse so men are
more physical and we tend to criminalize
that more we also criminalize for
example
the way that men deal with emotions is
oftentimes through substances so men use
something called emotion focused coping
which is that if they feel a particular
thing they will do something externally
to change the way that they feel and so
this is also something that we sort of
even Champion as men right so if you
feel ashamed of yourself you should go
and do something in the world so that
you can have more Pride you can hold
your head up high it's it's not this
doesn't the shame doesn't get fixed in
here it gets fixed by changing your
circumstances this is also what opens
men up to manipulation because if
someone can make you feel guilty as a
man I'm making you filty feel guilty the
way that you're supposed to deal with
that is to make more money because I'm
calling you not a real man because
you're not providing so there's a lot of
like men basically manage their emotions
using the external world and I think
when we have that kind of situation we
are more likely to end up engaging in
like Criminal activity the fact that we
criminalize substance use the majority
of substance users are men um you know
so things like that so I think it's like
I I I don't know exactly if that answers
your question but I don't think it comes
down to simple aggression so just to
give you a simple an example so you know
I I worked with a a patient who was 19
years old was in jail and um so I asked
him I was like you know how you know
tell me about yourself and and he he
wasn't upset about being in jail it
seemed very natural to him so I asked
him I was like you know so help me
understand that and he's like well when
I was 12 years old um before you say
that can I make a guess yeah they grew
up poor absolutely yeah and I know I
think everyone at home is going yeah
that's obvious that's self-evident
that's the point no no so here's the
difference so he he grew up poor but so
did his three sisters right they're all
in the same family why did he end up in
jail because his sisters told him when
he was 12 years old and Dad left the
house when he was 12 years old dad
sisters told you're a man you have to
provide that's what a man does and so
how does a 12-year-old boy provide for
his family he starts selling drugs so in
and out of juvie and things like that
for selling drugs because he's a
12-year-old now has a profession which
school does not prepare you for he has
no mentorship so he's kind of like in
this life of crime and this is how he
ends up in jail because it's his job as
a 12-year-old boy to provide of his f
for his family of four
right three sisters and one
mom and this too is where where people
will say okay like the problem here is
absent fathers and things like that
which you can make a very strong
argument for I'm not disagreeing we can
even see that in the animal kingdom so
for example if you look at elephants
juvenile male elephants who grow up in
tribes of elephants that don't have
senior males will exhibit a lot more
aggressive and delinquent Behavior so
this is very
biological at the same time you know I'm
not going to go into too much detail but
you know the circumstances of dad
leaving the house I I think we we are
quick to blame Dad for leaving but we
don't know the circumstances that Dad
was living in we don't know why he left
or what caused him to leave or or
whatever right so in this particular
case I mean I guess I can't say so it
was false accusations of sexual assault
right and so if you're in that kind of
situation where one of your daughters is
falsely accusing you of sexual assault
it gets real ugly real fast so you have
no choice but to
run well
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Theory okay so um it's a very important
Insight on all the other ways that the
masculine Tendencies can end you have
you end up in jail um all right so if we
call the table largely Set uh for the
problems against men how now since we
both agree that this ultimately is their
responsibility even if it's not their
fault it's their responsibility to build
a way out of this what is the way
out so I I think the first thing um and
this is kind of true of all people so I
don't think this is specific to men so
so the the stage is set you said it
beautifully Tom the stage is set for men
right this is the world that we live in
but whether the stage is set this way or
any other way your responsibility as an
individual is the same you have to deal
with you have to play the hand of cards
that you're dealt so I think one of the
biggest things that men need to do is
understand themselves and this is not
just men this is everyone so I think if
you look at the biggest problem in our
society today it's that we have a lot of
formal training of everything outside of
a human so we'll teach you math we'll
teach you economics the real crazy thing
is even if you major in Psychology right
you'll learn about populations you'll
learn about studies you'll learn about
in general the way that human beings
Trend uh tend to behave but you won't
learn about yourself so the the reason
the basic reason I think mental health
is moving in the wrong direction is that
the institutional powers that understand
human behavior our understanding of
human behavior on the scientific or
population level has grown so
sophisticated but our understanding of
ourselves within us
has come to an all-time low so a simple
way to put it is let's look at something
like pornography the people who make
pornography understand how to addict
someone but we do not give kids or
adolescents training to understand why
they get addicted to pornography or what
goes on internally that allows one human
being to become addicted so we have
advertisers who understand body
dysmorphia and how to induce body
dysmorphia in people on social media but
as a human being we are not trained in
understanding our ego our sense of self
where my sense of identity comes from so
we have a huge amount of there's even
something called like neuroeconomics
right so which is like using
Neuroscience to understand how to
influence human behavior so there's all
this kind of stuff there that we've
become so sophisticated scientifically
that the individual in today's society
is just completely outgunned this is why
you have people who will Doom scroll
every they know they don't want to spend
eight hours on their phone that they
wake up and they say I don't want to do
this I had that problem where I would
wake up up and I didn't want to play
video games all day I just did not know
how to resist it whereas the people who
are designing games not quite true back
then but is more true now know how to
keep you on when you don't want to stay
on so there's a fundamental power IM
balance between people who develop
things like technology in their
understanding of the self and we're like
you know they're armed with nuclear
weapons and we're armed with sticks in
terms of understanding ourselves and
once you understand yourself and how you
work that I think think is the ultimate
salvation for like basically any
problem okay so know thyself is Step
number one um what is the process to
come to understand
yourself I mean that's such a great
question um I don't know so I think
awareness and observation are like the
core of it but I think generally
speaking we have things like spiritual
traditions in which we are trained in
this so that's what happened with me is
that in the same way that we learn about
mathematics or
science or history right we can we have
formal processes of studying things
outside of oursel in our society today
we've sort of lost sight of the formal
process of internal study which involves
lots of steps um but that's basically so
I would kind of say like yoga is a
really good example of this of like a
formal system to understand how you work
as a human being where do your desires
come from where where does willpower
come from you know why do you wake up on
a particular day and feel sluggish why
is there a variability in your
performance you get that from yoga
absolutely tell me more I did yoga once
I did not enjoy it meditation I love I
thought you were going to say meditation
for sure meditation is a part of yoga
okay so let's let's understand so this
is the other problem is that there's a
misunderstanding of a lot of terms so
yoga comes from the Sanskrit the word
yuj yuj is yoke or like yoke not like y
l k like the inside of an egg but that's
that which binds so yoga is the practice
of becoming Unbound from that which
binds human beings so it it is what
binds human
beings um an inability to recognize that
we are Divine is a simple way to put it
so if you sort of talk about like you
know if we look at Buddha Buddha attain
Enlightenment what is that we're not
really sure I can go into detail if you
want but there's basically like this
process through which human beings will
attain some kind of psychological
spiritual whatever state where they are
all knowing and happy Jes out on all
powerful but so we'll say you know we'll
say that Avidia or ignorance is the
source of our suffering so this is what
binds us to this world and if you kind
of think about like I'm sure this has
happened in your life where like a lot
of your suffering and your lack of
success which by the way went hand in
hand was because you did not understand
something about yourself right and once
you understood oh I was I've been living
my life in the wrong way I've been
looking at things in the wrong way right
so you're you're a big fan of mindset
and so if we sort of think about it like
that's really interesting because we're
not actually changing anything right
you're not acting in a different way
there may be a consequence of action but
the start of it is a change in your
perception what goes on internally which
increases your happiness reduces your
suffering improves your performance but
fundamentally what it is is a shift in
mindset it's like the light bulb going
off so we suffer because we we have a
lot of Avidia or ignorance we don't
really know who we are we don't really
know how the world works and so we're
going through life deaf blind and dumb
and then no wonder things aren't working
out so the process of being able to see
being able to hear and being able to
speak is Yoga so yoga is returning is
the search for enlight the path to
Enlightenment basically and meditation
is one piece of that and then the
postures that we do in yoga studios
that's ASA so it's one of the the eight
parts of yoga got it I was going to say
we're gonna have some guys go roll up to
a bick roomm yoga class and expect
Enlightenment and walk out very confused
it yeah so you can get enlightened
through just ASA but it's very difficult
you have to have a very good treatment
uh teacher
interesting okay um man I know I'm
asking you to break down something that
is just impossibly large but if you had
to give us a thumbnail sketch of the
process of unbinding yourself from the
thing that closes our eyes to our
Divinity uh what would that process be
so process I can tell you it's not going
to make sense but I can tell you so the
first thing is that we have to
understand like what we are so let me
ask you Tom because now I I know you're
I'm answering questions but I can't
answer this so you're going to have to
answer for us okay okay so what are you
human what does that mean I am a
collection of cells that operate in a
certain way that we all recognize as
human I don't know how deep you want me
to go on that that's deep enough how do
you know
that I exist within what I call a frame
of reference my frame of reference is
built upon beliefs and
values I have a
core belief that I I can stop you right
there so let's understand a couple
things do you know you're made of
cells man I I could pass a lie detector
that yes I know I'm made of cells how
yeah so uh I have I mean do we want to
jump straight to we're living in The
Matrix or do you because I can we can go
step by step I can give youw we we we
don't need to jump anywhere I'm asking
you let's like you're asking how what is
the I think your punch line is going to
be you don't know anything no no no no
no no forget about punch lines and where
we're going forget about all that I will
simply answer the questions uh I know
that I made of cells because I have done
enough research that I believe in and
given my own tactical experience of okay
so then you also say that you have core
beliefs values whatever right so you're
you're a very wellb built human being so
but when you say I have core beliefs and
values what is the
eye uh the eye is the locus of
Consciousness that
feels like a riter inside of my body
okay so what is that locus of
Consciousness that feels like a riter
inside of your body it is and this will
be very controversial I don't find
Consciousness to be interesting but
that's probably because I'm too dumb I'm
willing to accept that but Consciousness
seems self-evidently the stacking of
brain microbiome potentially hard cells
up up up up up until the way that they
process information includes a feedback
Loop of um assessment so it is both
processing the data and looking at the
data that it's processing we read that
as qualia meaning the world feels a way
uh but to me that's just a simple
feedback loop and I can go in and damage
regions of your brain and it will go
away absolutely right so we can
stimulate the temporoparietal junction
of your brain that will trigger an
out-of- body experience we can damage
different parts of the brain so for
example we can do bilateral amygdalar
lesions and you will no longer
experience loss aversion you won't feel
fear we can alter your experience of
Consciousness by making changes to the
brain Aro you conclude that the brain
the Consciousness is some kind of
fictional hallucination born of the
brain fictional rubs me the wrong way
for a reason I have not explored uh it
doesn't feel accurate so I think it
simply is what happens when you
configure cells in the way that we are
configured with a layer of abstraction
your brain is running algorithms
algorithms jobs are to not show you
things as much as they show you things
and then to tell you how you feel about
the things that you see which have an
insane feedback loop based on your
personal experience and oh God uh so
yeah okay perfect so I think that's good
enough answer we don't need to go beyond
that so so like you have this subjective
experience y right of Consciousness or
whatever whether it's born of neurons or
whatever that's a debate for
philosophers we not you ask me the
question what is the process to remove a
viida to remove ignorance and understand
who you are so we don't need to know the
science of it because people did that
long before we understood that there
were cells or neurons or anything like
that so process doesn't require any
scientific
understanding um so now the question
kind of becomes so you have this
experience right but if you kind of
think about it the experience gets
colored so it can be colored or
influenced by past experiences so like
just a to kind of think about we we have
people who are in relationships who we
say they have baggage so what is baggage
baggage is past experiences that you
project on the present world so if I
have a history of being let's say I I
was deeply deeply in love and my partner
cheated on me and so this creates a
trauma a psychological trauma my
amygdala and my lyic system react that
alters my hippocampus these memories
change my amydala my amydala becomes hyp
sensitive so I become very sensitive to
stimuli of potentially getting hurt
again and now what's happened is the
organism has learned so now when I look
at a new human being I'm taking this
past experience which has changed my
wiring and now I'm looking at the world
not in the way that it is now the world
has become
distorted because this person I don't
know if this person is going to cheat or
not but some part of my brain tells me
this person is GNA cheat you can't trust
them so if we look at life this is all
life is we are unfettered experience
when we are children there's nothing to
add we have no colorings we have no
biases we have nothing like that and
then as we go through life we
accumulate all kinds of [ __ ] can I say
that sure okay so and then if we sort of
think about you let's talk about mindset
right like an incel whatever so if you
look at the incel mindset where does it
come from it comes from their emotional
baggage it comes from all of the
learnings that they have about reality
but the whole point is if you really
look at an incel they're divorced from
reality there's a study that just came
out that showed that incels are very
poor judges of what women actually want
they are very confident in the idea that
women want a b and c but if you actually
look at women that's not what they want
so if we look at life if you really look
at it life is just is a particular way
that is completely static like this is
water this is a cup this is not a good
cup or a bad Cup this is not good water
or bad water it's just water and the
basic problem that we have with life is
that we are unable to see life as it is
and the reason we're unable to see life
as it is is because we're colored by all
of these past experiences and so the
process of that spiritual path or
whatever is simply to see things as they
are
without the crap that we attach to it
and as you do this work on mindset right
so like if you kind of think about it
what holds people back it is their false
beliefs if the beliefs were real then
changing them wouldn't cause any change
does that kind of make sense I think I
know what you mean right so so if I
believe this is hot water but it's not
the the only way that changing a belief
works is that if a belief is false like
if you're accurate about something you
can change your beliefs as much as you
want to I can believe that I can fly but
if I can't fly and I jump off a building
I'm going to fall so if you really look
at it what a lot of this spiritual path
is is to understand the universe and
yourself as you truly are instead of all
of this baggage that you carry because
this is the big problem is if you look
at your
life are the do the lessons that you
learn do you learn them with intention
or are they automatic this is the big
problem is it's all automatic a child
who grows up in a traumatic household
believes that they are worthless they
don't get to choose this belief it's not
crafted it's not crafted intentionally
it's not even crafted correctly right
that's why we can change that false
belief but the majority of learning that
we have in life the majority of things
that you've learned the majority of
things that I've learned are haven't
been learned carefully they've been
learned automatically by this biological
system and so the path is to undo all of
that wiring and return as close as you
can to Pure unfettered experience
does that make sense it does um it in
the last sentence it made me wonder if
we are 100% on the same page or if we
have a slight disagreement so uh it it
is really really intriguing to me when
people from so I think as we go we're
going to realize you are not a
materialist maybe it doesn't matter
right now anyway I see you as thinking
of the world slightly different than me
but you and I have come to the exact
same conclusion just with different
words
uh so the words I use are frame of
reference we all have a frame of
reference and that Enlightenment would
be if if I had a conception of that it
would be your ability to completely step
outside of your frame of reference and
see things as close to reality as
possible so it sounds like on that we
are aligned so I see frame of reference
as a distorted pair of lenses that you
wear from the moment you were born to
the moment you die the crazy thing about
them is though you can shape the
Distortion and will shape the Distortion
but to your point all unconscious most
of the time if you can take control of
that which I think is going to be our
punchline to people uh you have to
become aware and then you have to shape
that lens so the only difference I think
is you think people will actually be
able to access a place that
is
true what you call it true feeling true
it was like true perception but that
wasn't word you used this is what's
great is that no word can describe it so
the the true the true state so there's a
state of consciousness called Dua which
is a Transcendent State of Consciousness
so it is a state that is beyond mind and
that that State of Consciousness is disc
will you let me is it a state beyond the
distortions of the Mind Beyond mind
entirely what does that mean great
question
so let's talk about science for a second
yeah so if you look at oh if you look at
mental illness or just illness in
general right so let's talk about
medicine so the whole idea in medicine
is that there is a pathology so
pathology is there's some part of your
body or mind that is malfunctioning okay
so we can say that let's say I have an
autoimmune disease so this is a case
where my immune system is not
functioning the way that it's supposed
to so that's why we call it an illness
in the case of mental illness we have
things like major depressive disorder we
have bipolar disorder we have
generalized anxiety disorder we have
schizophrenia we have narcissistic
personality disorder we have all these
different disorders and the whole idea
is that in our mind there are lots of
different things that can go wrong our
sense of identity can go wrong this can
result in narcissism our ability to
regulate our affect or mood can go wrong
this can result in bipolar disorder or a
mood disorder our ability to everyone's
mind has the ability to look into the
future and anticipate problems when we
lose control of that function this is
when we have anxiety so we're seeing
problems everywhere no matter how much
we think about it we're anxious we're
anxious we're anxious so these are all
differences different pathologies in the
mind right this is what medicine
says so then we comes meditation now
meditation is really interesting because
generally speaking in medicine we don't
have one treatment for all things if you
have high blood pressure we're going to
correct your blood pressure we're not
going to give you an antibiotic if you
have a infection we're not going to give
you chemotherapy we're going to give you
an antibiotic and in the same way when
it comes to the treatment of the mind we
have a lot lot of different medications
we have different psychedelics now
ketamine whatever we have different
kinds of psychotherapy we have
evidence-based support that certain
psychotherapies are effective for
certain malfunctions of the mind so
mentalization uh based therapy or
dialectical behavioral therapy is very
good for people with borderline
personality disorder or narcissistic
personality disorder cognitive
behavioral therapy is very effective for
people who have mood disorders we have
all kinds of different
stuff now so then the question becomes
okay if we we have different problems
right so if I have if I have a a car
that has a flat tire an oil change isn't
going to fix it
right so now the question becomes how
can it be that meditation is an
evidence-based treatment for all mental
illness how's that possible and the
answer is that it transcends mind it
moves so far the whole point of
meditation is we move Beyond mind
entirely so you can have any kind of
problem in the mind and it won't matter
because we're stepping outside of it
it's like you can have any kind of
problem in your car you can have a flat
tire you can have an engine that's
broken but if you take a helicopter none
of the problems of the car affect you so
this was something that is is very very
important to understand is that if we
transcend mind entirely all of these
problems in the mind will get fixed and
this is what confused me so much so when
I was you know studying to become a
psychiatrist I looked at all these yogic
texts and I had you know piles of them
from seven years of studying in India
and South Korea and Japan
and I looked at and I was like where is
all the mental illness stuff they have
all these yogic texts where they go into
so much detail about the way that the
mind works but they never talk about
depression they never talk about anxiety
and that's when I realized oh that's
because they transcend mind entirely
they just move completely beyond the
phenomenon of mind and if you can do
that whatever problem exists within the
Mind becomes completely irrelevant
because you've just bypassed the whole
phenomenon does that make sense I
understand the argument you were putting
forth but I would like to differentiate
between agreement and understanding yeah
great so yes I understand so you had a
question about because I think you would
ask me something about Consciousness or
mind yeah so I'm going to restate your
position yeah if you agree that I
understand your position then I'm going
to say it in my own words to find out
whether I agree or not uh your position
is that through meditation we are able
to transcend the mind
the mind is different than the
brain the mind is the sequence of you
won't like that the mind is
the don't jum the lens of
confusion that people are trapped
behind that makes
them be wrapped up and not understand
their
Divinity uh I yes and no so the mind can
so the mind is is not is is not the
problem it is it it it is just one part
of us right so when we misidentify fully
with the mind that's the problem so the
mind is an instrument just like my hand
when we misidentify with the mind I'm so
sorry my audience hates when I interrupt
but I I have to understand so so so it's
this idea that we believe we are our
mind we're not our mind can you use
I the we if I ask who's the we that'll
work just fine okay who's the wi what do
you mean when we so so are you your mind
yes does the mind have a physical form
yes what is the physical form of the
Mind the brain it's way complicated the
brain the heart hand yeah uh you could
cut off my hand and I would probably
experience life with very little
difference but if you transplant
somebody's heart the recipient will make
noises about like hey I feel like I'm
adopting the person's personality way
undiscovered super big question marks
but I have a feeling that just like if
you give somebody's microbiome to
somebody else it impacts him so I don't
think it's as simple as just the brain
but I don't believe there is anything
that does not it that isn't a a hologram
created by biology so the sense of self
is a hologram created by biology that is
my thesis okay so fair enough so then
then let's understand something so you I
think it it depends on definitions right
so you're defining so if you define the
mind as anything you are capable of
experiencing right so all experiences
are born out of the mind all experiences
are understood in the mind so you cannot
have an experience outside of mind that
is correct so I don't know that which
the way I would have said it though
nothing was wrong with that is
that you cannot have any experience that
exists outside of the brain that's more
grounded in what I mean when people hear
me say that they're going to be probably
more mad because I think some people
believe there's something beyond the
brain I really do not so so I I I think
that this is uh it's it's a really
fascinating it just depends on whether
you want to go here or not I want to go
here so badly this one of the things I
was most excited to talk to you about so
I I think I think I used to agree with
you and even now I agree with you so
like I understand the Neuroscience of it
I I think the the the key thing is that
as we have some Transcendent EXP
experiences so like you can have
experiences that will shape your
understanding of reality question yeah
does transcendent mean where I have
broken past my
mind I would say yes okay but but let's
understand that we can biologically
induce some level of transcendent
experience through drugs yes or not just
drugs through meditation right so so we
can we can do things like uh we know for
example like I said temporoparietal
Junction you can electrically stimulate
the temporal parietal Junction and you
can have an outof Body Experience so
this is where things get kind of tricky
because there's a different way of kind
of looking at things which is not that
life is all reduced to biology but that
biology is one layer of existence so
it's just a different way of looking at
things so if you look at something like
a family okay so a family is not
something that is a physical object
right it is like a conception or an
abstract
thing so now the question kind of
becomes okay if we think that this
family is not a real thing but it's
still has utility so like this almost
gets into philosophy which is not
actually what I'm interested in because
I'm kind of focused on individual
experience and growth and stuff like
that so it's it's really about practical
applicability um but if you kind of get
to like what is the nature of a human
being there's this kind of going back to
the original point of how do we get
there right so how does a human become
enlightened so you go through a series
of practices to peel
away prior layers of mind because if you
kind of think about what is your mind so
you can say that it's Consciousness too
but the yogis would separate out what
you call mind into two pieces and they
would say that mind is what thinks it
what it's what has emotions it what H
it's what has memories but your
fundamental subjective experience of you
they Define that is outside of
mind now this is also where things get
really weird
because you can make a biological
reductionist argument that we have no
physical
evidence for subjective experience
outside of the brain which is fair
enough but that presumes that there are
no layers of existence that are not
physical does that kind of make sense it
does the one so one I want to give
people a mile marker everybody stick
with us I'm telling you this I would
have cut this off a long time ago or cut
this out of the episode if you're
hearing this it's because this is
actually going somewhere and the place
that it is going that I really want to
make sure people understand you and I
use different words for this if the this
all started from something has happened
in culture Society whatever that is
derailing men washing them out to a cold
dark sea as I said at the beginning of
this if you do not understand that using
your words you're trapped in the mind
using my words you're trapped in a frame
of reference if you do not understand
the distortions that you're living
inside of you will never find your way
out okay now what we're debating about
is or maybe even just coming to
understand because I am so fascinated by
what you're talking about
uh that there are ways to understand the
mind that may make it easier to get out
of the
Trap and I think what you and I are
going to present are the ways that we
have over our lives come to understand
see if you like this analogy that we've
both come to understand this is I think
maybe a more Buddhist way of saying it
the difference between the sky and the
clouds that cross the sky very well said
right perfect so we're both trying to
describe the same phenomena but we use
slightly different words yeah I and I
don't think I honestly I know it's kind
of weird but I don't think it matters
whether everything is biological
reductionism or not because at the end
of the day what we're talking about is
the Practical element of it right so you
can make an argument that everything
that you know about biology how do you
know everything that you know about
biology it's all perceived through your
Consciousness right all knowledge that
you have about biology at the root of it
if you weren't
conscious you wouldn't know any of
it does that make sense it does but I
have such a strong conviction loosely
held so please if you can shake me of it
biology is all that matters
and that this moment if you force me to
Define it in a single sentence I would
say people have stopped believing that
you're having a biological experience
now I said that long before the gender
thing came along that wasn't even on my
radar I was just trying to get people to
understand why they suffer yeah so I I I
think this is where just I have some
experiences which have caused me to
consider the view that is not
biologically reductionist so the the
simplest of which is like you these are
patient EXP experience so I I once had a
patient who was in a really bad accident
was in a coma was in the neuro IU so we
get consulted I'm a psychiatrist and so
we get consulted because the the
neurologists are concerned that this
patient has depression so I go in and I
assess them for depression the prognosis
is good they're going to make a full
recovery they have a a family guy has a
wife who loves him two kids that love
him he's going to be fine he's
financially okay everything's okay
everything's great so I go I see him I
assess him for depression it turns out
that he's not doesn't seem depressed he
doesn't check the boxes of our our
understanding of depression so then I
kind of tell him right you know I said
the team is a little bit concerned is it
okay if I just come by and check on you
again because you seem like everything's
fine so I I come and I visit the guy
maybe every other day for a period of
about a week and then you know one day I
get to I get to know him and then sort
of he tells me that while he was in a
coma right and this goes back to your
Matrix thing while he was in a coma the
reason he's depressed today is because
he had a whole other life that he had he
was married to a different group of
people and he fell in love and he had a
different set of kids and the reason
he's depressed now is because he
realizes that that life is false now
this gets to this idea of are we all
living in The Matrix or whatever I don't
know how to answer that and frankly I
don't care right so the the the the main
thing is that I don't know that you can
convince someone using intellect or
logic that one way is correct and one
way isn't so you can have your firm held
beliefs which is totally fine I have my
firmly held beliefs which are based on
my experiences and we can also agree to
disagree that's okay the main thing
though is that I think whether you
consider it biology or you consider it
some kind of transcendent Consciousness
what we certainly know in there is
overwhelming scientific evidence for is
that the people who
conceptualized
existence as something Beyond biology
developed a set of practices based on
that theory and those practices have
evidence-based outcomes that are
positive for just about all human beings
and we even know the biological layer I
would use the word layer it's just that
there's other layers of existence that's
all so even if you sort of think about
thought are thoughts real or not they're
certainly not Material you can say that
they arise out of biology that's totally
fine and this is kind of where you can
also look at like matter versus energy
right so like if I look at a wave and I
exam
the thing using a physical element I'm
not talking about like a force measure
but let's say all I can meure is matter
so if I scoop out water I will never
find a wave so I personally think that
we're just at that point in science
where we just haven't been able to
detect Consciousness using physical
instrumentation because our
instrumentation isn't good enough so you
can't use matter to detect energy I
think maybe you can I don't know but we
have ways of detecting energy like and
we just haven't developed our science in
that realm yet kind of coming back to
the point though is that what we sort of
know is that there is a process which
these Yogi say will lead you to
Enlightenment and I was a biological
reductionist too and then I started
doing Advanced sadana so this is a
spiritual practice these are the
esoteric spiritual practices you learn
from people in the Himalayas and your
experience of existence is so wildly
different from the day to-day experience
of existence having memories of things
like past lives or whatever you know
there's all kinds of different stuff
that then you can still say okay this is
all just hallucinations in the brain and
that's a completely Fair argument
there's no scientific way to disprove
that the point though is that whether
you want to disprove it or not I I don't
know but I don't know if this kind of
makes sense it sort of doesn't matter
because even when we look at the path of
changing someone's frame of reference or
doing Psychotherapy we're not working on
biology directly we're using the layer
of mind to to do the work does that kind
of make sense when I talk to you I'm
working on the layer of your mind is a
psychotherapist and you can say that the
mind is real or is a hallucination it
doesn't matter it still has a biological
Cascade which is going to alter your
neurons alter your amydala hypers
sensitivity we know that meditation
strengthens the the connections between
your frontal lobe and your amydala so I
frankly I think it's sort of a
philosophical argument
about is it just the brain because I'll
completely acknowledge that there is a
biological layer I just happen to think
that there's another layer which I
consider real which biological
reductionists will consider essentially
a
hallucination but it doesn't matter
because the methodologies still work and
we have scientific proof of
that yeah that I think we agree on okay
so for everybody um keeping up with the
mile markers here would be the next
one uh you are living inside of a
delusion whether you think of that as
the mind with its trappings or you think
of that as a frame of reference with its
trappings no human being in fact every
human life is going to be defined
by your ability to see through the
Distortion to something with predictive
ability and so while you and I use very
different words as I was listening to
you really feels like we are very much
describing the same thing and again
gentlemen we're trying to help you get
to a better place so to get to that
better place you have to identify the
distortions um we know that they are
born of what you call the mind what I
call frame of reference which I'm
perfectly happy to use U mind certainly
as as I view it um whether unlocking
higher States Of Consciousness that are
no longer tied to biology we both agree
doesn't really matter we're just trying
to get to um your mind works a certain
way creates distortions that can be
somewhat predictable if you look at your
traumas and your beliefs and your value
system and just what your own
personality is like you can begin to
really zero in on these and that if you
begin to pull certain levers you can
change the distortions to either
transcend or or to the way I think about
it is um as I mentioned earlier I see
your frame of reference as a distorted
lens that can be Rew warped it will
never be 100% accurate I I don't think
the human mind has the processing power
to see the world as it actually is which
would be a set of photons reflecting off
you at certain wavelengths and certain
amounts right that's what I'm actually
seeing I don't perceive that I perceive
it as you wearing a gray shirt right so
it's a hyper hyper hyper simplified
version of the world World um so now
that we know that that both of us are
talking about a game of self-awareness
growing to understand the distortions
that are causing you to make causing you
to behave in ways that don't lead you to
your intended goal which is why I'm
obsessed with thinking about not
Enlightenment but thinking about utility
you have a goal is this Behavior going
to move you to that goal yes or no if it
is then do it and if it's not don't do
it now I will say be wise have honorable
goals but that's really as as the
materialist in the room that's like the
really straight line we're we're both
trying to get people to a better place
yes sure okay all right so those are the
mile markers through I love that okay uh
so but for anybody that that needs those
mile markers to hold on to there they
are okay so now let's come crashing back
to
Earth if you had to Define what a life
worth living is made of what elements
would you say apply what a great I love
these questions because they're they
okay they're so hard to answer so the
short answer is that I think um and this
is going to sound kind of weird but I
think basically a a life of neutrality
and nothing is the closest thing to a
life worth living so a life with no
goals where you just exist in the
present you focus on action you life is
just meant to be lived so a life doesn't
have any attributes you're just living
the life itself you're being here on so
right now I consider this to be a life
worth living I am ecstatic that we are
doing this right now could this help a
thousand people a million people maybe
but that's not what this is about this
is a moment between you and me where I
should be here and I'm loving this
conversation here I am in Los Angeles
California where you are and all this
kind of stuff right like so this is a
beautiful moment in existence which is
only going to exist now we may never
even see each other again so to
appreciate what this is right now is the
essence of it now you can't get there
though very easily so very practically I
think that you know there's a saying
that you can't meditate on an empty
stomach and to achieve this state of
mind I think you have to go through some
steps
so at first I was unhappy because I had
not achieved something in life but to
truly transcend achievement
you can't give up achievement without
achieving just like my my teacher said
so I was I had a very negative ego where
I was like I'm I'm a loser I'm nothing
which I had a lot of evidence for and
then I had a very big ego where I was a
spiritual person I was at Harvard I was
doing this I was doing that and then I
still had that ego but then I let that
go too and then I realized that you kind
of have to go through the steps and so I
think that like by all means become
successful but then what you'll find is
that Success is Not Enough right let's
talk about you for a second you built a
very successful business you exited it
and then are you were you content for
the rest of your life not even close not
even close well what the [ __ ] man I
thought that like 99% of the people out
there are trying to do exactly what you
already did and are you telling me that
that's not going to lead them to
Everlasting happiness I am telling you
that aggressively exactly so first you
don't have achievement and then you
attain achievement
and then you realize that attaining
achievement isn't going to be enough
then you can truly transcend the
phenomenon of achievement to be a loser
and to be successful then you realize
that I'm I realize I'm the same person I
piss the same way I did I [ __ ] the same
way that I did I still struggle in the
same ways that I used to that's life I
can't I'm successful I'm not Su I'm the
same piece of [ __ ] that I was back then
and I'm the same awesome guy that I am
now you're always you right and this is
hard to understand so I think that like
in terms of building a life worth living
I think by all means have your goals
right like adopt your Fram set shift
achieve those kinds of goals and I work
with a lot of people who are high
performers billionaires CEOs whatever
but I also work with degenerate Gamers
people who are in jail people who are
homeless right and all their struggles
are very similar I think what makes us
human is is much more shared than it is
is
different I've seen people who are
homeless who are suicidal and I've seen
people who are multi-millionaires who
are suicidal
and so by all means Chase all your goals
and Achieve them but achieve them with
awareness don't get so caught up in them
and also try something else right so if
you've been chasing goals your whole
life and it's not bringing you happiness
pause and think for a second can you
just enjoy a simple day when you say
what is a life worth living I would ask
that to all of your listeners take the
best days in your life and look at what
are you doing that day what is a moment
worth living what is your favorite
moment is it winning a video game what
is the price that you pay for that so
really just look at yourself because a
life you can't build a life worth living
all you can do is live a moment worth
living and then IDE theoretically if you
add those on you'll have a life worth
living but even I don't agree with that
I imagine you will but that's okay yes
um I do believe in having some
scaffolding I think that there is a
formula for a life wor living which I
always call fulfillment the reason that
I think that's the right place to go if
you remember my North Star is human
flourishing the thing the only mental
state that is positive that can survive
even grief is fulfillment so uh then the
question becomes okay what is fillment
because ultimately fulfillment is just a
neurological state which I'm sure if I
knew the cocktail I could induce it
chemically uh but to induce it naturally
in your veins I don't know I've never
done heroin so I can't say but maybe uh
but the things that you would need to do
are you have to work really hard to gain
a set of skills that matter to you for
whatever reason that allow you to
progress and get better in serving not
only yourself but other people if you do
all of that I think the algorithms that
are running in your mind that were put
there by Evolution you will just feel a
deep sense of profound well-being now
there are a lot of traps and there's a
lot of distortions that most people fall
to as they try to do that the number one
is thinking that oh I'm going to help
this many people and I'll feel good
about myself I'm going to get this award
and I'm going to feel good about myself
I'm going to get so good at this saying
that I make a lot of money and I'm going
to feel good about myself all of which
are distortions traps they are not going
to get you anywhere but and I'll be very
curious so in fact one thing I I feel
like I've said this behind your back
even though I never had you in mind when
I said it but uh I've always said that I
keep in my back pocket Buddhist style
Detachment I've never been a monk but
dude early in my life from the time I
was like 15 or 16 I called myself a DST
like that was my thing like I was about
it I was like an inch short of getting a
minor in eastern philosophy in college
um just really really captivated
by a very orthogonal way of thinking to
how I had grown up and reading the
daing I felt like like yo this was
written by Yoda from Star Wars like this
is the greatest [ __ ] ever like obviously
George Lucas basically just stole from
dosm and Buddhism and the way that Yoda
presented his philosophies but they they
always struck me as so profoundly useful
so in in going through all of that I
came to a a a tourist's understanding of
what Detachment would look like and that
always felt like the wrong path for me
because I wanted to do the other side of
that coin which was to engage as deeply
as humanly
possible without worrying at all about
the outcome and so that is Detachment
that's not the tourist version that's
the real version interesting
so a monk which is my sort of
visualization of what I was calling real
Detachment is they're not eating that
bag of chips they are not striving to be
the greatest of all time they're just
trying to be here in the present moment
to remember the beauty of a pebble
that's not how I'm trying to live my
life how are you trying to live your
life I am trying
to make sure that I achieve fulfillment
so working really hard to gain a set of
skills that allow me to progress in
doing cool things for myself and serving
others um I would say I achieve that
probably 40% of the time I feel like I'm
on a good path like there's a Greek
phrase for it yeah please are you are
you fulfilled with your lack of
fulfillment because you're moving in the
right direction am I fulfilled with my
lack of fulfillment whenever I feel
unfulfilled I take that as a nudge that
I have gone off course do you play
Minecraft oh
man what anyway I am I am an evangelist
for Minecraft there's a very interesting
thing in Minecraft you can put torches
up it creates a safe area you can
sometimes think you're setting torches
up as like oh follow this path but then
it gets dark and you can sort of tell
the direction of the light and so what
you realize is oh it's getting dark
that's a reminder to get back into light
it's getting dark reminder to get back
into the light that's how I feel when
I'm not fulfilled it's like Ah that's a
reminder to come back into the light
because I really feel there is a lighted
path and that lighted path is that thing
that I just listed for fulfillment and
so you can become obsessed with an
outcome you've fallen off the path you
can um stop thinking about others you've
fallen off the path so on and so forth
yeah so so you're I mean I I don't think
Tom you have a tourist's understanding
of dosm I think you have an authentic
understanding of it so let's understand
a couple things
okay
the so what I realiz the reason I didn't
become a monk is because I realized that
the trappings of a monk and being a monk
are two entirely different things so if
I had if I had a teacher who had
accepted me I would have never been a
monk because I would have still had all
these internal problems these
attachments this ego this pride of
humility which you see a lot in the
spiritual world look at me how little
ego I have I'm so look at me I'm so
spiritual I'm not materialistic at all
right I don't wear Lululemon I wear
simple things look at me so this is very
very common so if we really look at it
what I realize is that the Detachment is
internal it's not so you can be in the
world you can get married you can have
kids whatever so even when we sort of
say that like okay I have kids and I
love my kids and I'll be hurt and all
this kind of stuff so I was struggling a
lot when I was deciding to have kids
where where like is this is this mean
I'm screwed because I'm bound to this
world and then I detached from
attachment in general I said let my life
be attached let me suffer what's going
to happen is going to happen like if I
get [ __ ] I get [ __ ] and that's okay
I've chosen to live my life this way and
so be it this is I I choose this right
and so it's weird but like it's really
great because I'm detached from
everything even though I'm attached I'm
detached to the concept I'm not hung up
on being detached which is what I used
to
be so if you sort of look at even your
sense of fulfillment I I think you're
very fulfilled and I think you have a
emotional variance but what I detect in
you is that even transcending that if
you're moving in the right direction you
can maybe not quite forgive yourself
100% because if you would do that you
wouldn't have accomplished everything
you've accomplished there's a karmic
element here too to your life where you
have certain debts that you need to be
paid and you've said to yourself this is
who I am and you're moving towards it
but I mean you didn't need to tell me
that you had kept dosm in your back
pocket since you were 15 that's your
karma too you've always had this voice
you know this stuff you've known it for
a very long time and you can live and
you can become successful and you can
make a big impact or a less big impact
and you're going to be okay I don't know
if that kind of makes sense but like
it's not like achieving a particular
thing is going to do it because you even
say that right you say that you can slip
into this idea of if I'm trying to go
for this goal then like it's going to
disturb it right so if you really look
at it the the one thing that I would say
for you and everyone else out there is
like look at the nature of your
fulfillment what does it mean to be
fulfilled and sure there's some
biological cocktail of oxytocin
serotonin dopamine whatever you want
that all that layering is there and then
the real question for you is can you be
okay with being
unfulfilled because if you can achieve
that then have transcended the whole
thing I'm definitely hung up on that one
it just feels wise to me it's
interesting I'll have to reflect on that
but as of right now with my distorted
lens it feels wise to pursue fulfillment
see that that answer you can't it's it's
a it's you're you're right you're more
right right because the caveats that you
add for in this moment it feels right to
me so it is right for you I'm not saying
that it's wrong I don't know if that
kind of makes sense but do you realize
how different that answer answer is
because there's a part of you that
understands that this is just in this
moment that I am this way so you're
accepting yourself as being
attached does that make sense yeah of
course and so the acceptance of
attachment is
Detachment it's when we are ignorant of
our attachments that we really get into
problems right so when I'm super hung up
on a girl the moment I realize holy [ __ ]
I'm hung up on this way too much that's
the source of my peace M it's not
actually being hung up or not being hung
up is our ignorance of being hung up
when we deny to ourselves that I'm in
love with this person but I shouldn't be
in love with them right that's when we
get really screwed up so even accepting
the flaws within yourself and this is
where we get to the you know the garden
variety Buddhism of acceptance you're
doing
it and you're saying that I'm not doing
it because you're looking at other
people who are sitting in in ashrams or
monasteries that's real that's not real
Detachment you're real Detachment you're
already doing it just look at what
you're doing and you'll find that
there's a lot of contentment and even
you'll find that that lack of
fulfillment is like just one slice of
you I don't know if that makes sense but
it does you just made a penny drop for
me uh so I given that this year is an
election year I am super freaked out for
the first time in my life maybe just cuz
I never paid attention before maybe
because this time really is different
but the idea that people are not aware
of their attachment to the tribe that's
the thing that worries me so the drum I
have been beating forever is you have to
want Dynamic tension between say the
left and the right um but is it more
fruitful to get them to focus on their
attachment I don't know if I could do it
in the way that you can but as you look
at what we're stepping into where uh
we're going to be back Biden Trump
almost certainly on the ticket
what is your thinking what is is the
problem attachment to tribe is the
problem something else how do we diffuse
the
situation I think the biggest problem
that we see in our political climate
today is a lack of compassion for the
other side So speaking of Jordan
Peterson um which you who you quoted
earlier I thought there was one thing
that I really liked that he said and and
I I I'm not going to get into him but I
think he's very his lectures are Fant
fantastic so he has a couple of lectures
from University of Toronto that are on
YouTube that are phenomenal especially
ones on personality um so I'm not
espousing his political beliefs or even
commenting on those but one thing that I
really liked is after Trump won the
election I think he was a guest on Bill
mahs show or something like that and
then I think Bill Mah is liberal is that
right yes and so they were talking about
all these Trump supporters are idiots
and I'm not commenting on whether that's
true or not but then I I liked
Peterson's response and he said so
what's your plan with them right because
because like whether you think they're
idiots or not they're here and they
voted this guy into Power what are you
going to do about them so this is one of
the biggest problems that I see with
Israel Palestine left versus right no
one is trying to understand what the
other person is
thinking and so the one thing that I
found as a psychiatrist is that like
everyone's like I'm right and they're
wrong and there's everyone has data and
I mean this is the the crazy thing right
you can ask someone on the right are you
objectively right they'll say yes you
you ask someone on the left or you
objectively right they'll say yes and
they they completely
disagree and if you really look at I
think the basic problem is that no one
is trying to understand because everyone
thinks that the other side is idiots
yeah but if you really stop and think
about it if you think someone is a
complete idiot their understanding of
the world has to be very different from
yours to be that stupid so their
experience is so different and I think
the basic problem is that we like we're
not unified anymore like no one is
trying to work together right everyone
is just decrying the other side the
other side is is idiots they're stupid
they're woke whatever like I to pick
whatever your insult there is but the
one thing I've learned as a psychiatrist
is even people have low IQ are not
stupid they're just living their life
and they're living the way the best way
that they know how and they have these
kinds of experiences I'm from Texas so
and I was in you know in Boston so
surrounded by liberals over there but my
family is in in Texas and tons of
conservatives and I hear both sides and
I listen to both of them and I think
everyone has a
very understandable perspective I think
some of them are wrong from an objective
standpoint but even then do you blame
the person who is wrong I know it sounds
kind of weird because we usually do but
this is where I'll kind of say so you
know I worked with a kid who was um an
adolescent who was smearing [ __ ] on
bathroom walls fun right and so they go
to like juvenile detention or whatever
they get into trouble But like everyone
is willing to punish and say that this
kid is bad and say that this kid is
awful no one ever stops to ask why are
you doing this what's going on in your
life of course it's abuse at home right
the kid doesn't know any other way to do
things and you can look at something you
say that's objectively bad but how do we
treat this child because punishing him
doesn't work so the biggest thing that
scares me and I think if we look at
what's going wrong in the world today is
we have stopped even attempting to
understand
what someone who strongly disagrees with
us and like both sides are guilty of
that no one gives a [ __ ] what the other
side thinks or why we just say that
you're wrong and they need to be stopped
at all costs and if you really look at
it like you
know the way to overcome addiction or
the way to work things out in marriage
counseling is each side has to
understand the other side's perspective
and right now we have no empathy and so
if we we have no empathy we have no
understanding of the other person it
becomes antagonistic and then of course
what are people going to do when they're
backed into a corner they're going to
fight the way to stop all this political
stuff the way to fix gender Dynamics and
we did this on our subreddit which was
an absolute mess there's a place where
Echo Chambers collided women from some
corner of the internet and incels from
some corner of the internet met on our
subreddit and boy was at a mess our mods
are amazing and we were able to navigate
through that there was this beautiful
post where a woman said I'm a
conventionally attractive woman who can
get laid whenever I want to and I'm
incredibly lonely here's my story and
when people who like post incel stuff
were like wow I never realized that your
life could be like this I see myself in
you I thought you were completely
different I'm so sorry that your life
has been this way like it's through
compassion and understanding of the
opposite side that's our only
salvation and the other option is of
course that you could eliminate the
other side which has happened in
violence and history right but that's
the go-to choice for Millennia yeah uh
is there even the remote possibility of
empathy in the age of
algorithms yes I think algorithms it's a
beautiful question because I think
algorithms make it harder exponentially
harder right so I think what people have
realized is that activating your
emotional circuitry is what gets you to
stay on a particular website and the
problem right now is that there's an
arms race between platform forms the
problem is that whichever platform wins
the individual
loses so take your platform they're all
competing with each other for your
attention but the one person who always
loses your attention is
you
so I think a a lot of people don't
realize that what keeps them on a
platform is often things like righteous
Fury so I think this is the strongest
emotion that keeps people engaged um and
I think that there is opportunity so I I
think we can use these tools that's what
we do when we interview people and and
stuff like that we try to create a space
where that is emotionally engaging but
hopefully helps people become empathic
but we're definitely losing and the deck
is stacked against us but I think it's
possible I don't think we've lost do you
have to set the phone down and and just
disengage from the algorithm can you
take control of the algorithm what do
you uh so I I think people who can just
set the phone down don't have the
problem um so I think that it's a slow
process of first of all like
understanding what you get from this I
think there are all kinds of like
Neuroscience tips that people don't
really know that's not like common
knowledge so like one good example of
this is that so you can think about the
dopamine in your brain like a lemon so
when you wake up in the morning your
brain is full of dopamine so if you do a
non dopaminergic activity and a lemon is
full you don't have to squeeze very hard
like a boring activity and you'll still
get some juice you'll get some reward
but if you play something like a a video
game it's like a strong squeeze and so
at the very beginning you'll get a lot
of pleasure but even after you've
squeezed most of the juice out of the
lemon you can still keep squeezing with
porn and video games and things like
that right and then you can extract a
little St you you start by playing video
games and you end up jelking in your
goon cave uh with eight screens of
pornography exact good these are good
tips I hope you taking notes everybody
there's your hydraulic press nice right
so that's do it at the end of the day
when you need that harder squeeze so
something is le as if you play video
games for even an hour in the morning
all other tasks will be difficult for
you for the rest of the day you will get
literally more of an experience of
reward in reinforcement if you do
something first thing when you wake up
so there there are all kinds of tools at
our disposal that we can learn these
kinds of tools so we understand how we
work but the basic problem here is that
all of those Technologies are
manipulating you and in order for you to
combat them you have have to understand
yourself that's the only way that it
works because they're not going to be
looking out for you yeah I was very much
hoping you were going to say that this
feels to me like a very useful extension
to the idea earlier I looked at my
desires and I saw from every angle that
this was not going anywhere interesting
um I agree with you violently that what
we have to do is find a way to come
together um Ray
doio puts the odds at us uh being in a
Civil War I think in the next 10 years
at
50% so it's uh it's really terrifying
and so if people don't get that
awareness come to understand not only
themselves but the algorithms and then
my mission in life feels like to get
people to understand you want the
dynamic tension between the two sides
and if you think the other side as
stupid as you were saying they all do uh
and you allow yourself to be manipulated
and have that reinforced by the algor
alith then there is nowhere for this to
go other than violence and so even if
you just want to look at a future that's
optimistic for your children you want to
find that exit ramp what is the way that
we resolve this in a non-violent fashion
and that is going to be back to your
point about Jordan Peterson asking hey
these people exist and so standing
around saying that they're stupid
regardless of what side you're on saying
the other side is stupid uh they're here
so what exactly are we going to do to
build bridges that becomes the question
yeah and I think that's what we see with
kind of wrapping things back around a
gender Dynamics so I think like that's
the problem right is if we look at all
this toxic masculinity what do we do
with people who are toxically masculine
we blame them right we hold them
responsible we don't look at what was
the world that formed them in that
way and so this is this is why toxic
masculinity is actually on the rise is
because there's only one group of people
cuz they get ostracized from all other
corners of the internet what ends up
happening they they end up into the
waiting arms of the people who are
toxically masculine and then we wonder
why these people keep you know my my
friend my boyfriend my son is going down
the the toxic Rabbit Hole of of
masculinity what can I do to stop it
what you can do to stop it is listen to
what they [ __ ] say about their life
instead of invalidating them understand
that they have nowhere else to go that
they're kicked out of everywhere that
you're making a post about how to stop
this because this person is going down
the wrong road without trying to
actually listen to what that person says
and trying trying to help them and this
is where people will say but I've tried
to help them how you told them to do
things differently that's what it is 99%
of the time you don't actually listen to
what their experience of things were
when someone says I have trouble what
how did you respond did you say help me
understand how you have trouble did you
say what can I do to help or did you say
hey you need to stop doing that because
it's bad and a lot of human beings think
that they're very compassionate but
often times especially when it's a
gender Dynamics we get triggered so hard
our own emotional circuitry becomes so
hyperactive that we see in black and
white we get paranoid you know all this
kind of stuff happens you have to shut
down all that circuitry to be able to
see things
calmly yeah frame of reference you are
in a wildly distorted frame of reference
and unless you can calm your emotions
down you're you're never going to be
able to see outside of that going back
to the concept that hey look it might
not be your fault that things are this
way but it is your responsibility to do
something about it uh in all of this I
fear that what people hear is they
Envision themselves on the side that's
being unfairly persecuted I would say it
is far wiser to look at the situation
and say ah what can I do to build a
bridge not how how do I finally get
heard that I'm being done hard bun I'm
being hard done by and instead really
start looking at okay how do I be the
one that bridges that Gap yeah and I I
think it's it's reminds me of trauma
groups where when you have group therapy
with people who have trauma you can get
this one upman [ __ ] going on where one
person says I was traumatized in this
way and someone says I had it worse and
so I think the basic problem this is a
very very scary thing that's happened in
our society is we say like okay like you
know I have it bad therefore I can't
listen to them
so I know this sounds crazy but the
moment that human beings start to say I
don't need to be heard it's okay for me
to not get my needs met and I'm willing
to still support someone else that's the
moment things will turn around but
everyone feels like I need to get my
needs met first then I can go help
someone else whereas I think we'd live
in a very different world if you woke up
tomorrow and said I don't need to get my
needs met I'm one of the L's of the
human race I'm [ __ ] in my life and
still I'm going to do what I can I'm a
sinking ship but I'm going to try to
save as many people as I can before I go
down and if we can start to do that the
human the world will change
tomorrow yeah man that's uh that's some
biblical stuff right there the the idea
of yeah you're going to be crucified
that that is what it is and now it
becomes how are you going to respond to
that I'm not a religious guy but that
that idea really resonates with me in
terms of yes there are going to be
horrific things that will meet you if
nothing else either I or my wife will
have to watch the other one die oh God
like that is
distressing that is distressing man and
I don't know which of those would be
worse for me I don't know if it'd be
worse knowing I'm leaving her alone or
if it would be worse watching her die oh
Jesus and so knowing that not only does
that catastrophe come but that all of us
die much to my dismay though I'd love to
see it change we are currently on a path
nobody gets out alive and if in the face
of that you throw up your hands and
embrace a nihilistic view you've just
made things worse versus if you say okay
I get it at the end of this I'm still
going to find some way to connect to
something positive I'm going to
recognize that I am the sky and not the
storm rolling across it well set
yeah man let me ask dude uh every now
and then I look out at a future and all
I see is the Event Horizon of Technology
of global
disruption um it gets hard to predict
the future I won't even necessarily say
it's going to be bad I just can't see
what it is how do you advise people as
somebody who's very cognizant of um
long-term plans are not your best
friends anyway how do we approach a
world of just
crippling
um
uncertainty and live in a joyful manner
yeah so it's a great question so that's
something I've seen more and more of so
in my clinical practice the rise of
existential depression is huge so people
like there there something was different
40 years ago where like the future
seemed like a relatively safe place and
now it's uncertain I've had um a very
high number of patients who the reason
they they choose not to have kids is
because they cannot justify bringing a
child into this uncertain world so it's
something I've seen a ton of
um I think I know it sounds kind of
weird but
like you can only do as much as you can
do so it's kind of this this philosophy
of gard and action and fruit so it's not
in your life to control what happens
it's only in your life to control
control what you choose to do and so
certainly there's it's not like random
right so if you do the right things it
increases your probabilities I'm not
disagreeing with that but I I think
that's really our only salvation is to
like focus on the present moment because
this is where we are right now right and
you should think about the future but
this is where a lot of people trip up
see thinking about the future should be
something that you control it should not
control you if we look at something like
anxiety you look at the future you say I
don't know what's going to happen I
don't know what's going to happen and
then how does that thought affect you
does it paralyze you does it make you
too fearful can you just acknowledge
that you don't know what no one knows
what's going to happen right and so the
fact that no one knows what's going to
happen it's a universal Human Condition
no one has ever known what's going to
happen it's been impossible no human
being has been able to see the future
and so despite all that whether you can
see the future or you can't see the
future the reality that you live in
today is what you live in today and
99.9% of people I've worked with know
what they should do today they may be in
denial but they know what they should do
so they'll say something like it won't
be enough but if you really think about
that like oh like working out going to
the gym once won't be enough where is
their mind their mind is in the future
they are projecting out that this won't
be enough how do you know you don't know
what's going to happen tomorrow so I
think the only antidote which is
something that budda figured out
thousands of years ago in studies on
mindfulness are figuring out today is
focus on the present it's all you can do
it's the only place you can exist you
can't exist in the future you can't
exist in the past you literally exist
here and now now is your time to act and
it is the false belief that you can act
in the
future that screws people up
procrastination is what I'll do it later
later becomes now this is going to be
the same whether you do it now or
whether you do it later it's always now
you can only act in the present you
can't act in the future by the time the
future rolls around it's the present
again so this fundamental
misunderstanding that human beings
forget about the future because it's
always the present the only thing that
ever exists is the present and so that's
where your focus should be and then to
some degree you will be able to learn I
mean so I I was so lucky because I had
opportunities to learn this that most
human beings don't get that's being a
doctor so you can't I can't save a life
right so you may disagree which is fair
enough but this is what I learned right
so someone comes in with three I I
remember the actual case someone came in
with three gunshot wounds into the
emergency room right and here we are
Massachusetts General Hospital one of
the best hospitals on the planet
and like we can't we can't we don't know
we can do everything we can do and so
then what I sort of found is that I did
a lot of work on physician burnout what
tears Physicians up is the Physicians
who think that they can save a life what
allows Physicians to sleep at night is
did you do the best that you could if
you did the best that you could then is
if you decondition your mind then you'll
be able to sleep right because what more
could you do you did everything that you
could and take solace in that and now
this is a beautiful thing you were
talking talking about motivation so now
we're going to circle back to how to
find the perfect motivation in your life
once you realize that you can attain
complete Peace of Mind by doing 100%
effort right I can try to save this
kid's life he's been shot three
times and so I'm not God but I'm going
to do everything within my power and
there will be sadness if the person
still dies but you will be able to sleep
at night now you have discovered
something very beautiful
which is peace of mind comes through
100% effort and then you will never
procrastinate again because you know
that all I have to do is put forth one
it's not about the outcome it's did I do
everything that I could do I'm guessing
that for your viewers who are not happy
with their lives the reason they're not
happy is because they know they can do
better no human being wakes up and
thinks to themselves oh my God my life
sucks because I can't
fly it's impossible so it causes us no
suffering what causes us suffering is
when something is possible and we do not
do it when we know we're capable so put
forth 100% effort and recognize that
you're just human and you'll find peace
of mind and then once you realize this
is the way to find peace of mind then it
becomes easy to put forth
effort does that make sense I don't know
it makes a ton of sense um and I love
that it's very akin to Jaco willink's
idea of discipline equals Freedom it's
the surprising thing of if I give it my
everything and I fail still I'll be okay
because I know I did everything I could
assuming they have the belief that you
don't have absolute authority over the
outcome um and I think that's right I
think that's exactly what you have to
teach people is like I always tell
people look I I am trying to build the
next Disney I'm really swinging for the
fences my odds of success are just
ridiculously low but I don't value
myself for whether or not I accomplish
it I value myself for whether I
sincerely pursue it every day meaning do
I go play and leave everything out on
the field if I give it my all and I fail
cool I'll feel I'll be fine with that I
won't be ecstatic that I didn't make it
but I will have I will be completely at
ease with myself because I know I did
everything that I could um that that is
the most freeing thing in my life was
when I stopped valuing myself for the
outcome and I started valuing myself for
The Pursuit that's when it it got a lot
more fun all right I want to I want to
go back to the idea of either being able
to see or not being able to see the
future and exactly how we find uh the
right amount of Detachment so I like
given the group of people that you speak
to they bring you like some hard
realities about where the world is and I
think the world is in a financially
super weird position so um Boomers had
it great they locked up a ton of wealth
they came in at a time where you could
just sort of blindly invest in an index
fund and over a long enough time you're
were going to do very well uh housing
was cheap it was going to be the best
investment of your life on a relatively
normal salary you could get a 30-year
mortgage and buy a house I mean just
like all the things that could have been
at their back demographics is Destiny
right everything just like really lined
up for them but you have somebody now
who's in their early 20s and they treat
everything like it's gambling because
they don't see any way for them to get
on that wealth track like their parents
did so they've got a Yello they've got
to do the GameStop they've got to do
crypto they've got to do something that
could deliver just this massively
disproportionate return and so they
literally look at everything as a
potential slot machine now when that
person cannot see the future so not only
when they could see it it was Bleak now
they really can't what do you want them
to do they've got money they want to
invest do they just go spend that money
do they save for retirement like how
should a young person now when
technology makes the future impossible
to see by my
estimation what do they do with their
money just this one question I mean I
the short answer is I don't know I'm I'm
not an expert in investment but I mean I
I think I'm going to be a little bit of
a a a beating a dead horse here because
and I have worked with people who have
both made a ton of money in in crypto
and have lost a ton of money um I've had
experiences with
spouses who you know their partner
invested a ton of stuff liquidated their
401k and all this kind of stuff and and
really took big list risks lost it all
uh terrified suicidal um so I I've seen
that all and I I think this is the weird
thing right so I've worked with like a
lot of different people but this is why
I believe what I believe because at the
end of the day all these people are
human right so whether you're trying to
win an Esports tournament or you're
trying to make money or you're figuring
out whether you have kids or not at the
end of the day you are you so I think
for a lot of these people in terms of
planning for the future the general idea
is to think about what is your
attachment towards this thing so if I
want to have a house why do you want to
have a house what do you appreciate
about a h house you know to really
understand the nature of your wants and
why you're chasing this because now
let's think about this right because as
long as my North Star stays my North
Star then it becomes an increasingly
impossible situation and I certainly
don't know enough about Finance to say
this is the right way to invest in
today's world I have no [ __ ] I don't
know what to do with my money right and
I have no idea and so and even
knowledgeable people have no idea so how
do I approach this I approach this by
sort of telling people okay stop for a
second and before you lock in your
assumptions about what you want and they
even like subtle things that you're
talking about which are really
problematic like so you compare to
Boomers why do we compare to Boomers Why
Don't We compare to ancient Egyptians or
are you know the the Visigoths why do we
compare to this generation so this is
something we have to understand this is
a good example of what we don't
understand about our mind see anytime
our ego or our humar becomes active it
makes comparisons but the comparisons it
makes are very selective and the
comparisons that it makes reinforce the
emotions that we're feeling so why do we
compare to the rumors because we all
feel like things are unfair and we think
I know this sounds kind of weird I'm a a
lot of people disagree with this but
there's science behind it see we think
that the reason that our lot is unfair
is because the Boomers had it better but
the unfairness comes first and then our
mind finds a reason a logic a some kind
of data to support the way that we feel
in the moment and I'll give you a simple
example if everyone's like that's crazy
no the Boomers had it better but yeah
but why do you compare to the Boomers
compared to whatever other gener
generation other simple thing is if you
feel insecure about your appearance your
brain will reduce this the inputs that
are reassuring and will amplify negative
inputs when it comes to your appearance
you'll ignore and you you'll know this
I'm sure because you have very
successful people and a lot of people do
this you may have done this yourself
where you downplay your successes and
you focus on your faults because if you
do that that's how you improve right
because if we rest on our Laurels we
won't keep
climbing so this same fundamental ego is
at play here when we look at the world
things used to be so unfair if you're
making that comparison so stop making
that comparison I that's kind of weird
but then what ends up happening is as
you stop making comparisons to the
Boomers because what is the good of that
like it's not actionable in any way all
it does is just make you feel bad and it
pisses you off and the Internet by the
way is creating an algorithm of
righteous Fury against the
Boomers right because that why why do
why are we so anti- Boomer why does the
internet serve us so much content
because that's what gets Millennials and
gen Z clicking
more and so we're all being sucked into
this crap whether we realize it or not
so I'm going to sort of Dodge the
premise of the question don't ask me
about that the answer is stop being
egotistical about it stop worrying about
what's what happened in the past because
what good does it do you this is the
hand of cards that you've been dealt and
I imagine you'll agree with me here that
the focus is not we can cry as much as
we want to about the shitty hand that
we're dealt but the question is how
you're going to play it and the big
lesson that I learned in my life is
there are a lot of shitty hands which
you can win with and a great example of
this is failing out of college in what
world is failing out of college an
advantage in the one world that you wind
up at Harvard Medical School and if I
had had a 4.0 I would have been no
different from the 6,000 other people
that were there right so this is what's
really crazy is when you remove all
those filters that we're talking about
you realize that the world is not nearly
as Bleak as we think it is we're
literally being conditioned how many
posts have you seen or people in your
audience seat about Boomers do this
Boomers do that Boomers do this Boomers
do that and it's conditioning your mind
and you're not able to see reality as it
is it's suffering we don't know how to
act why don't we know how to act because
we're we're not acting in the real world
we're acting in a conditioned World our
frame of reference has been shaped and
then we feel paralyzed and you're asking
me what is the right way to SU in this
frame of reference I don't accept the
premise of the question the problem is
that the frame of reference is wrong so
that's what you need to get out of and
when I have patients who deal with tons
of uncertainty that's what I do and it's
amazing what we see people in finance
and this and that you know people who
worked at Leman brothers and it got
destroyed and then went somewhere else
and then other things have imploded and
and and stuff like that you know what is
Silicon Valley Bank or whatever like
I've had people who have been at
multiple of these failed things they're
like like how do I live my life seems
like I'm getting screwed every single
way you can't control any of that and
it's amazing so when you work with these
people you get rid of that frame of
reference you find peace the path
becomes clear because even if you look
at people who say like this doesn't work
right so let's talk about finances and
someone says okay you should do this but
then if you really pay attention why
can't they do that because their mind
jumps in and says that won't work it
won't be enough it won't be enough it
won't be enough so what paralyzes all
these people from acting it's your own
mind if you are confused and uncertain
about life if you really look at where
that confusion comes from it's because
your mind paralyzes you you think maybe
I should do this and mind says it isn't
good enough it isn't good enough it
isn't good enough and then we enter this
false belief that if I get enough
information from the outside then the
decision in the mind will become easy
which makes sense right if I can time
travel and see the future then I know
what to invest in you're absolutely
right but that's not the right way to do
it the consistent way that the Buddha
figured out and people ADI Yogi or Shiva
thousands of years even before the
Buddha figured out which works for
bankers and CEOs and whatever homeless
people is this strategy clean your mind
step away pay attention to why your ego
is active how does it feel to have
Boomers have such an easy life and Buddy
you just scratch the surface you get
born in 1950 you go to college in the
60s you do a bunch of [ __ ] LSD you
slide into a job with very little
competition the you know you just you
invest in whatever the [ __ ] it grows you
buy a house in the 70s when things are
super cheap and then you retire with a
gigantic pile of money in the early
2000s before the 20072 2008 crash you
didn't have to work hard in college you
got to do a bunch of
drugs before things got criminalized you
had fun you slipped into tons of money
buying a house was easy and then you got
to retire and then the icing on the cake
is then you get to [ __ ] on the Next
Generation for them not working as hard
as you
did they are lucky so what
step away from all that stuff look at
your life as it is look at what really
paralyzes you and what you'll find is
it's your mind not something outside of
you and once you do that Things become
easy I don't know if that makes sense
that was great I didn't want to say a
word um okay we could have done drugs in
the 60s if we were lucky enough but
let's say that we do some LSD or other
uh things now is there a real third eye
that opens
how much of that is
real I think it's 100% real but I think
biological reductionists will have
difficulty with this right so let's
understand so just for some
context so we have this idea in in the
yogic system that we have these seven
chakras so chakras are there's this
energy that's seated at the base of our
spine called the Kundalini shaki and as
it rises to the top of our spine we will
become enlightened as it travels through
through the the chakras um it awakens
believably psychic
powers so what a lot of people don't
realizes everyone thinks I'm a good
psychiatrist because I talk to someone
and I see into their soul or whatever
and the thing is I'm cheating so I've
done third eye practice for about 20
years now so like I have an intuition
about things that many other people
don't so everyone thinks I'm special I'm
not special I just it's kind of like you
know if you if you train in free diving
you can hold your breath for very long
time it's not like you're some magical
creature it's just you've trained in a
particular way now there may be there
has to be not there may be there has to
be and this is kind of a lot of what my
research used to be this was back when I
was faculty at Harvard but
developing clinical protocols based on
these yogic theories and what I sort of
found is that we had good clinical
outcomes not all mindfulness is the same
and I think what's going on when you do
thirde eye practices it's probably from
a biological perspective somehow
strengthening your empathic circuits so
you're able to detect information I
don't think it's anything magical right
so there's absolutely V if you're not
doing drugs what is the practice is it
meditative in nature yeah yeah it's
meditative so there's all kinds of
different practices so we have a
practice that we call charging the laser
beam which if name yeah it's a my
community came up with it so if you kind
of hold your your middle finger over
your eyebrow Center you'll sort of and
you close your eyes you'll detect like
some sensation there and you hold it
there for about 60 seconds seconds and
then you can put your hand down and then
you just focus on that sensation it's a
very simple introductory practice to
open the third eye so it'll take years
to open but you kind of do that for a
while it's just a cool thing to focus on
so my I suspect that these esoteric
meditation
practices undoubtedly have some kind of
neuroscientific effect now I can't say
with certainty that there is something
magical about them but there there's
definitely something
neuroscientific but I I think the third
eye is absolutely real and I think
there's a really simple
what is the third eye giving you access
to is it simply you're stepping outside
of mind and that's what we call that
that's one way to step outside of mind
so so we're so basic that it's kind of
like okay we're g to you know there's
leaving the Earth but there's a thousand
directions to go there are solar systems
there are galaxies all this kind of
stuff so not transcending mind is just
step number one there's a whole world to
Universe to explore so when we do you
mean that literally uh yes yes as in I
don't know if this is the right word
astral
projection yes but I don't like that
term because I think it has all kinds of
connotations to it so let's let's just
I'll kind of explain it quickly and I'm
not I don't I'm not this may not
convince anyone but if you want to know
what I think I'm just going to share I'm
here to understand so the first thing to
understand is that does a thought exist
like what do you think
yes what is a thought so this is quaia
that you were talking about earlier
right yeah thought is a sequence of
neurons firing in a given pattern so
that is the biological correlate of a
thought right so do we have any
scientific evidence of the existance of
thought
um given the way you're defining it I
don't know but I would say it the
opposite way that the um the thought is
what arises when neurons fire in that
order like they they are not separate
things okay so fine they can be
connected so I would say that we have no
ex no scientific evidence and I've
talked to neuroscientists and
psychiatrists and no one has convinced
me otherwise yet and in fact the
majority of people I've talked to agree
with this that we have no scientific
evidence of the existence of thought why
not you don't you why are you
discounting the firing of neurons as
what is the firing of neurons the what
is it what do you mean what is it what
do we have evidence of at an
electrochemical level yeah that's what
it is right so we have sodium channels
that open up that depolarizes the neuron
creates an action potential so what is
what is reality the reality is there are
sodium channels moving through a neuron
yes a transporter that's what it is
that's not a thought how do we know that
neurons are where we think from that
feels like you're asking me how do we
know that walking exists because all we
can do is see the way that the muscle
fiber is firing absolutely you know
walking exists because you can watch
somebody walk across the [ __ ] room
then you have sensory perception right
so we have sensory so we have we have
photons that are bouncing off of their
body that are entering our eyes that's
how we observe so this is what's weird
right so we take this for so for granted
that we kind of miss miss it is how do
we know that the amydala is where
emotions happen it's because we do an
fmri study which measures blood flow to
the brain so what we literally have
proof of is there's blood flowing to a
tissue in the brain that's all we have
proof of how do we know that's where
emotions happen because we ask someone
what are you feeling when tissue goes
goes here mhm they say I'm feeling fear
so there is a subjective realm of
existence which is not biological so
when you have a
thought it correlates with neurons but
the substance of a thought is not there
may be electrical impulses 100% of the
time but that is an electrical impulse
that's not a thought our subjective
experience of a thought is a thought is
a different thing it's not Material it's
not electrons does that make sense um I
okay so let me let me steal man your
argument and then I'll know at least if
I'm understanding what you're saying
correctly okay so uh Tom you have to
understand that there is a difference
between the firing of the neurons and
the ineffable thing that we call a
thought now this ineffable thing cannot
be measured cannot be um detected with
current scientific
tools but I grant you that yes there is
a fire ring that we see that is
correlated with the thought but they are
not one and the same and therefore you
have to understand that the thought
which is ineffable is existing outside
of the physical structures of the
brain yes okay um well because it does
it doesn't have space right so it
doesn't it can't it doesn't have
material location the thought the
thought that doesn't feel accurate to me
okay let me really try to uh does this
feel like a sky cloud differential to
you does that analogy still make all the
sense with this all I'm saying is that
you have a subjective experience of
thoughts which is different from the
physicality of sodium channels going I
mean sodium ions moving through a sodium
transporter and creating an electrical
gradient yep those are two different
things the subjective experience of a
thought they may be 100% correlated and
I'm not saying that the subjective
experience is not a hallucination that
arises does it change anything for you
if I say they're positive not just
correlated even if they're causitive
that's fine but they're still
qualitatively different things
yep agree or disagree yeah yeah agreed
very much so now the question is this is
what we have to understand so science is
only able to explore the physical it
can't explore this realm of existence
that is non-physical right so science
can absorb that we can observe that's
literally what we do this is how we
figured out the amigdalas where we feel
fear because we looked at this physical
structure in the brain that correlates
with these thoughts we looked at our
frontal lobes which correlates with
willpower we looked at our nucleus
acumin which correlates with motivation
and desire so we have a subjective
experience of being a human which can be
100% correlated with the brain and if
you want to say it can be 100% positive
of the brain that's fine it's okay right
but that feels feel like it makes if it
is positive if thoughts are positive
from the brain It seems impossible for
you to explore the universe no matter
how widely your third eye opens because
your brain and your oh no no not the
physical Universe okay so uh are you
saying that there resides a universe in
the same Lial space that thoughts exist
exactly wow no one has ever gotten me to
that before okay right because because
in science what we do is we don't
explore thought we explore tissue we
explore neurons we explore electrical
signals we do not literally use the
qualia of thought to explore in the
direction away from the
physical um can we bring it back because
I don't know that I'm tracking that but
I really am excited because you've
gotten me to see an element of this
argument I've never understood before
Okay so so in the lional
space where the thought exists but is a
separate thing from the firing even if
only in a qualitative way uh as a
separate thing from the firing of the
neurons um if I do
DMT and I feel I have encountered real
alien beings which for anybody that
hasn't heard of that before is is a
claim a lot of people that do DMT make
there's a study that showed that n 90
94% of people who are experienced DMT
94% of people who have who are
experienced DMT users will encounter
other worldly Banks okay now I've always
just I haven't done DMT but I've always
had what seems to me there when when you
dream you see somebody who's not your
mom but you're like that's my mom so
there's a difference between the thing I
see and then just I know it is my mom
and so I've always thought that DMT is
going to be like that you see just a
vision but your brain is really telling
you that's an alien man so
assuming well sorry is what you're
saying that in the linal space where
thoughts exist that there are
actual beings that exist in that Lial
space that you actually encounter does
that Lial space exist in time and
space
I don't know if it exists I I I think so
but I I don't think it so it's not
physical so this is the key thing to
understand right so you have the
subjective experience of a thought uhuh
which can be correlated or caused
there's some link between the physical
world I'm not saying there isn't but my
point is that if we look at the
direction of exploration the direction
of exploration of what we call
science is in the Physical Realm mhm so
we like took something like a brain and
then we like opened up the skull and
then we measured it we sent x-rays
through it we looked at the the
fluctuations of proton molecules we
looked at things like the electrical
activity based on electrodes on the
scalp this is literally what exists
right so electrical activity across the
brain is not the same as the subjective
experience would you love or hate me
calling this Lial space
imagination imagination is the first
layer of
it
[Music]
okay uh so imag imagination thoughts and
feelings are what 99% of human beings
have access to in the same way that 99%
of human beings have access to Earth but
very few of us have gone into the Stars
so our basic sense of perception with
the naked eye we can see what 99% of
human beings can see but using certain
technology like a telescope we can
observe things that are scientifically
impossible for 99% of people to OB
observe and if you want to understand
what the the third eye is it is
technology for the Lial space so as we
do meditation techniques we are
utilizing tools that let us explore the
completely non-physical
realm because we as human beings are
seated between both sides of this we
have the subjective experience realm
which is qualitatively different from
the biological realm the problem is that
the more we've advanced in science the
less we've explored that realm in fact
people who are so well-versed like you
have never even considered that that is
an entire realm to be explored how is
the non-physical World different than
dreams dreams
are a one version of the non-physical
world but dreams are just the same as
real version or interaction with the
only non-physical world I don't
understand that question but dream is no
different from our general perception
M so you're saying it's not the same no
so what I'm so a dream is a dream is
just a different perceptual reality yes
or an imagination and you're saying the
non-physical world is not that it is a
far more no no it okay so this is going
to sound kind of weird but if regular
existence is here like the thoughts and
emotions that I experience in my waking
State I feel the emotions that I
experience in my dream right that's no
different the fear that you experience
in the dream is 100% the same the fear
that you experience in life and
meditative practices where you can be
cons aware in dreams so this is
something that you can explore but
they're still at this level what I'm
talking about is this
direction so at the end of the day A
Dream is still a perceptual emotional
and thinking experience it's not
actually moving out it's just like
regular life except it's false right
imagination is the same way as well it's
just thought but it's not actual
exploration in those
Dimensions okay um is is the
non-physical how does the non-physical
World differ from
Magic what do you mean by Magic I don't
know what you mean by that
term um I was trying to see if you would
have an allergic reaction to that more
than I think it's a literal question I
cannot conceive yet of what you mean and
so like a Zen Cohen I'm trying to knock
myself out of my well of course you
can't conceive of what I my frame of
reference so that I can see what you're
talking about
um I need a I need a model of conception
okay I'll put it this
way a model of conception this could be
the worst thing that I've ever come up
with or it could be the best thing that
I've ever come up with I already love
it so before you hit puberty people can
talk about erections in sex right so I
had one friend of mine who was a couple
years older a friend of my brother's and
so he was explaining to me what sex was
like right and so I was like I was like
eight or nine and he was like you know
it's when you put your thing in the
girl's hole now I had never seen a naked
girl before I didn't realize that they
have more than one hole so I thought sex
was basically like you know doing it in
the butt all the time I was like that's
weird going to get far with that so if
you sort of think about my capacity to
understand y the concept of orgasm if I
am pre puberty is
zero it'll seem completely imagination
mythical I can try to approximate it
with imagination but I have no idea what
an orgasm is like even my friend tells
me it's like the best candy you've ever
had or the best video game you ever had
comes nowhere close to orgasm the whole
phenomenon of sexuality attraction lust
intercourse and orgasm is completely
it's like trying to explain philosophy
to a dog agreed does that make sense
yeah I'm going to give you one that will
resonate certainly with me better maybe
other people um because you degraded my
mind in that analogy not just my
experience so I will say it's like love
before you've been in love absolutely uh
so that is admittedly hard to imagine
but I can at least anchor myself around
how it arises through a physicalist
model fine so so that's okay so here's I
won't have the qualia but I'll have the
process
so here's the reason I use the puberty
example because what happens is in
puberty you have a fundamental change of
your biology of your hormones of your
tissues of your brain that allows you to
have an experience that you could
literally would be impossible for you to
have before does that make sense yep so
in meditation the process of doing
esoteric sad sad spiritual practice when
you do this you go through something
like puberty but on in the non-material
plane in the spiritual realm you go
through a transformation that allows you
to experience things that were literally
unfathomable before and if you try to
explain it to anyone who has not gone
through that transformation because it
is almost puberty is the best example I
can think of because it changes the way
that you literally
function and it opens you up to levels
of experience that cannot be described
which is precisely why the yogis don't
describe it which is why these texts
were considered esoteric because the way
that these were originally taught is
they weren't talked about you actually
put people through puberty first and
then you start teaching oh that was fun
that was fun where can people follow you
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check out our YouTube channel so healthy
gamer GG you'll find this kind of stuff
I suppose everything we talked about
gender Dynamics Neuroscience Psychiatry
and then sometimes one of some of the
weird spiritual stuff I love it the most
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theame