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Language: en
you're going to fail if your plan is to
rely on natural Talent OR mindlessly
clocking 10,000 hours if you want an
outrageous amount of success you're
going to have to throw away most of what
you know and build a real path to
Mastery there is a reason that most of
you will die with your potential still
trapped inside of you but I'm joined
today by best-selling author and
celebrated Professor Adam Grant and our
goal is to map out the exact path you
can walk to beat the odds and be
celebrated in Valhalla
somehow the growth mindset has become
controversial because despite how many
of us preach it people are still
struggling so what is it that all of us
are getting wrong about self-help I
actually studied this with um Amy resesi
and Justin Berg we did an experiment at
a tech company where we tried to teach
people growth mindset um and have them
think about what skills do you want to
develop take maybe some talents that you
thought were fixed will get you to
reframe them as flexible and we found
that that alone didn't change their
happiness and it didn't boost their job
performance we needed to do something
extra for them which is um have them
change the environment around them so
there was a group of people who got
randomly assigned not only to think
about themselves as you know as
malleable but also their jobs as
malleable so think about your job as you
know as a basically a set of of tasks
and interactions um those are building
blocks uh they probably weren't designed
for you right it's a job description
that was written by somebody else but
you could change the size of those
blocks you can make some of them bigger
you can make some of them smaller you
could bring in strengths that maybe
weren't designed into your job and and
try to do what Amy and Jane Dutton have
called job crafting where you become an
active architect to your job and and you
actually customize it to try to better
suit your your capabilities that you
have and the ones you want to develop
and it turns out that if we give you
that growth mindset about your job as
well as your skills you see a
sustainable boost in your happiness over
the next six months at work um there's
no cost to your performance and there
might even be some gains and so I think
the the idea here is to say let's not
just look inward at changing our
ourselves we also need to to alter our
context to better fit where we're trying
to grow so I'll take a slightly
different read on that as somebody that
my All of My Success is predicated on
the adoption of a growth mindset what I
realized was when I didn't think I could
get better it had a radical impact on
all of my Downstream behaviors so
ultimately only your behaviors matter so
you can do the right thing for the wrong
reason you're still going to get the
right result but if you understand that
all of those behaviors are Downstream of
the things that you believe to be true
then you realize okay the thing I
actually need to tackle is it is an
internal job as far as I can tell that
because if I don't believe that I can
get better at something or I don't
believe that I can shape my job then I
won't try it's a self-filling prophecy
exactly when I think about okay how do
we make lasting change in somebody that
wants to change that's the first thing I
go to you have to adopt the only belief
that matters you have to believe if you
put time and energy into getting better
at something you will actually get
better and it's interesting you're
actually making me rethink cuz I always
say that that if you put time and energy
into getting better you'll get better
but there is a secondary part that I
think you're getting at here which is I
have to believe that I can shape things
to my will now the interesting thing is
that's what I always call power I don't
know how you feel about the word power
that one's also become a little
controversial I didn't grow up in an era
where that word was weird so like I'm so
comfortable but to me that's personal
power you close your eyes you imagine a
world better than this this one you open
your eyes and you acquire the skills
necessary to actually go and execute and
get the skills you need to do the things
you want to do and so I often remind my
team because the way I came up I didn't
start I didn't found my first company
until IID worked my way up from uh
copywriter to partner and so I'm like
I'm not the CEO and that's why I think
like this I became the CEO because I
think like this and so the way that you
really get ahead is to just act as if
you can completely change everything in
front of you you can change your job you
can persuade people to see things your
way you're not always going to pull it
off but if you believe it's doable then
you'll behave accordingly I think that
what you're calling power could also be
seen as agency right which is I have the
the freedom and the leeway to shape my
environment I'm not a a sculpture of my
context I'm actually a sculptor of it
and I think we we all need that I think
the the other thing is I I think you're
making important distinction that growth
mindset is not it's not a Magic Bullet
it's not a Panacea but the absence of
one can be devastating so if I have a
completely fixed mindset it's really
hard to imagine that I'm going to
operate to try to change my environment
um because I'm kind of I believe that
I'm stuck with it and I think that
that's that's a a really reasonable
place to land um I wonder I'm just I'm
thinking out loud here are we allowed to
think out loud I think you know I like
that I I think you like it I like too
and I I feel like I don't do enough of
it because my job as an organizational
psychologist is to start with the
evidence and like okay here's what the
evidence says but the evidence always
leaves questions unanswered and so let's
let's think this throughout loud so um
you think about belief as a driver of
behavior I think that's right I think
Behavior also can reinforce your beliefs
and so this can become a a virtuous
cycle over time so you you start out
thinking I can change my environment um
and I can improve myself then you act in
ways that that basically confirm that
and then you get feedback from your
environment that says wait a minute that
worked let me do more of that and so you
might be somebody who feels like
opportunity hasn't knocked and you
realize maybe there's a way I can build
a door okay that is one of the driving
forces in the book that you've written
hidden potential as soon as I saw the
topic I was like between the topic and
you this is definitely going to be one
that I'm excited to explore uh but what
I want to know is why does potential
remain hidden are there myths or DS that
people propagate and look it I'm
perfectly happy if I'm like telling
people something that ultimately doesn't
work then I will immediately get rid of
that all I care about is creating actual
impact on people so uh you need not pull
punches so I in fact I will ask for
advice I don't know how much you know
about the things I I spout but what are
the the misconceptions that people have
what's the [ __ ] that people are
spreading that actually leaves people
with the the potential dormant I think
the great myth of potential is that you
can judge where people will Land by
where they start we do this to ourselves
we do this to others constantly um the
assumption is if you're a natural if
you're a prodigy then you're going to go
on to do great things and if you
struggle at first if a task doesn't come
easily to you then you might as well
give up and look elsewhere um I think
you're you're living proof that's not
true but there's also a lot of science
that that backs it up so one of my
favorite studies looked at World Class
athletes scientists artists and
musicians um trying to figure out when
could you see their potential and it
turned out that the vast majority of
them people at the very top of every
field um did not stand out when they
were young um their teachers did not
necessarily think they were anything
special their coaches didn't and neither
did their own parents in some cases
which I want to have a conversation with
those parents later but um it's it's
staggering that when they did stand out
they stood out more for unusual
motivation than unusual ability
and I think what that tells us is yeah
everybody starts at a different place
but ultimately the question of potential
is the distance you can travel um as
opposed to you know what's what's the
natural level of aptitude that you were
born into or that you locked into so
that to me is the the starting myth that
that gets a lot of people in
trouble okay so the one stat that I've
heard that um seems odd given that is
that a lot of times professional
athletes end up being I think you even
talk about this in the book end up being
towards the older bigger in their class
uh I always thought then the knock on
effect of that is that they're
outperforming they are more confident
they get more attention from the coaches
but then I would assume that they people
would be like oh that kid's really got
it yep but that's not true at least
that's not what you just said so it's I
would say it's incomplete so you can
tell that story and that will explain a
bunch of people's trajectories um and
those people those kids weren't at the
beginning better right they just had the
natural advantage of being older and
therefore being bigger and stronger and
faster and smarter um I think though
that there are two wrinkles that you
could add to the table so one is um if
you look at the hockey data uh so it's
true that if a hockey player is born in
January or February significantly more
likely to become a star make the NHL
what we don't talk about is the fact
that the later you're born as a hockey
player if you do make it the more
successful you become so the November
and December bursts at the end of the
year they do have lower odds of getting
there if they can break through they
have a greater shot at becoming Allstar
caliber players and I think part of that
is some people would say well they had
to be that much better to begin with to
make it I think that might be part of
the story but I think there's also a
piece of the story that says you know
what they had to learn to get that much
better in order to overcome the
obstacles that they were facing so I
think that's that's one big wrinkle um
that we don't we don't talk about that
overlooked group that you know is
overlooked um they're underdogs they
tend to be you know in a lot of cases
later Bloomers but they ultimately make
it and sometimes rise to Greater Heights
uh I think that's that's probably the
first principle the second principle is
if you look at the the brand new data on
um this is also mn's work Brook mnea
what she and her colleague shows that uh
the elite junior athletes are less
likely to make it to world class and so
there's one group of kids that basically
specializes early um they go all in on a
sport um they Peak fast and then they
burn out um and sometimes they burn out
because uh they're just exhausted
mentally in other cases they burn out
because they they literally pound the
pavement so hard that their bodies can't
handle it any more whereas the kids who
wait longer to specialize who delay that
Focus they end up um you know sort of
they end up Rising slower but ultimately
they're more likely to get to the very
top of international competitions uh and
I think there's there's a case to be
made there that what we need is a
sampling period which is we try out a
bunch of activities we figure out where
maybe some of our our skills lie but
also where our motivation lies but also
the cross trainining pays off over time
and so I guess there's a there's a
second story that people tell here which
is okay if you're not a natural Talent
believer then you're a hard work
believer and your story is if you
worship at the altar of the altar of
hustle if you pray to the high priest of
grit then you're done like no it's not
about how hard you work it's about how
well you learn um and we've all heard
cliches about working smarter not
working harder um but I think the actual
skills involved in working smarter get
far too little attention so what do you
make of all that uh so you're taking
notes you have multiple reactions care
well I'm taking notes on things that we
will definitely get to um but first on
that
particular I'm going to put it in a work
context for a second which is a if you
think of business as a sport which I do
then this will connect directly um I
consider business the only sport that
you don't from a bodily standpoint you
don't have a a clock on you look at
Warren Buffett still going he's in his
80s right so it's really an
extraordinary thing that you can play as
long as you want to play um but I think
that people need to work long hard and
smart and people will inevitably push
back on me and they'll say Tom if I'm
working hard and smart why do I have to
also work long hours and my answer is
because you're going to go up against me
and I'm doing all three and obviously
I've read your book I've heard you talk
so I know some of the punchline is that
play is an incredibly important part of
this and so of course I agree with you
wholeheartedly and so I'll I'll add a
fourth thing and say you need to work
long hard and smart at something that
you are obsessed with so for me I've
literally structured my life to be I
mean as close to play as you're going to
get I mean we're in your garage right
now right we are technically in my
garage though I respond violently to
that CU I don't like cars uh so but my
thing is I've really tried to handcraft
my life to be the things that I love so
for instance um if I'm playing Minecraft
right now I would be playing it as a way
to learn because we're building a video
game okay that's not an accident our
video game is done in a style of gaming
meets anime that's not an accident those
are the things that I love uh we make
comics why because I read Comics right
we make comics in the style of manwa why
because I love manga anybody anybody
that understands that connection will
get it but it's like okay so my life is
really me
asking if I didn't have to worry about
money what would I do and then try to
make money off that thing but I really
do feel like if you want to be one of
the greats man and maybe people don't
and I hear that but I'm just saying if
you want to be one of the greats you
really are gonna have to go that
hard yeah I don't think I disagree with
that I think I think what you're talking
about is being an outlier um at the very
extreme of success I don't want that to
be true but I worry that it is I mean I
think look yeah if you want to be at the
very top of where you're going there's
no question that you're going to have to
work hard as part of it um I would say
hard work is not enough number one we
know that and number two there is such a
thing as as overworking to the point
that you either kill your motivation or
you undermine your own creativity and
what you do see I think I think we can
make a pretty compelling case that
there's a trade-off at some point
between quantity and quality and so the
21st hour that you're putting in the day
is probably less valuable than sleep
that's interesting so let's map that out
uh I believe the most important thing
well go okay God uh I'm going to talk
from a behavior standpoint not from a
punchline of Life the punchline of life
is fulfillment it's love it's all the
beautiful things that life has offered
but within the context of I love how you
just made that a disclaimer by the way
yes of course the things that matter
we're not going to talk about but let's
talk about this stff that doesn't we'll
get to those but just to to map the
edges of this for a second so with
within those confines of knowing I'm
talking behaviors right now sleep is the
most important so I didn't want to say
sleep's the most important and then
people are like oh [ __ ] You Like Love is
All That Matters yes I get it I'm just
talking behaviors if you don't get sleep
you will not optimize your brain so
anytime that I or anybody else start to
diminish their sleep then I'm like you
have a problem uh just because you won't
be a even if your goal is just to work
as hard as humanly possible you will
begin to diminish your ability to do
that you will get brain fog you won't be
able to focus like I have to imagine
though you'll probably know the science
of this that you can measure a decrease
in
IQ if you're fatigued oh easy yeah yeah
although you know there are ways to
upset that too so one of my favorite
studies that didn't make the book um and
this is I think worth a quick detour
there was a this was a HRI at all paper
um they did a NASA simulation with
flight Crews and it turned out that
flight Crews that were exhausted um
actually made um fewer potentially
catastrophic errors uh in their fewer
fewer if they'd flown together before
than a brand new crew with no shared
flying experience okay but what about a
well-rested team that's flown together
that would probably be the best of both
worlds that's interesting so they're
saying that the if you don't know each
other well enough that's worse than
being tired yeah and maybe there's a
greater loss to collective intelligence
that comes from not knowing each other's
strengths and weaknesses not having
effective routines not having Norms
where you're allowed to challenge each
other if you see a problem but I think
I'm 100% with you I would bet on the
well-rested crew that has shared
experience that's really interesting
okay so go back to sleep sleep is the
most important behavior from your
perspective so you don't want to
compromise that yes correct okay but
everything you have a system that's
basically laser focused on what your
professional goals are yes so I I'm huge
into whatever is going to optimize my
cognition so I eat right uh I meditate I
work out all of that stuff which many of
those things I do only because they are
good for cognitive optimization it isn't
something that I intrinsically enjoy I
will say meditation is in and of itself
it's pleasurable for me so that that one
I really like and would do occasionally
even if I didn't think it was moving me
forward um but yeah so that I I
definitely do all of that stuff to
optimize but then beyond that I really
resonate with somebody like Kobe Bryant
who's like look if I'm in the gym for
six hours a day and you're only in the
gym for two hours a day I'm going to eat
you alive like I will just be so far
ahead of you you know Three Seasons Four
Seasons Five Seasons in um I think the
same is true of business look I'm I'm
only so smart so if I can't tune my
genetic dials I have to find the other
dials that I can tune and effort is
certainly one duration is another um and
then just the steady accumulation of
skills since they stack would be another
I think I'm on board with all that I
think the one thing I worry about is the
I guess a little bit of a productivity
creativity trade-off so you you raise
your attentional filters you block out
all the things that might be
distractions your productivity goes up
your learning in the core domain goes up
you also lose out on Eureka moments and
unexpected connections and so the very
thing that seems to interfere with your
productivity the lowering the
attentional filters um lets unexpected
ideas in um and it sounds like you're
you're designing for some of that by
exploring in adjacent areas that you're
working in and I think there's probably
a benefit there but I also wonder like
what's what can you systematize like I I
think Da Vinci probably put it best when
he said like I don't know the exact
translation but it was something like
you can't produce a work of Genius
according to a schedule or an outline
and maybe you're just comfortable
letting go of breakthrough radical
Innovation and doing you know kind of
more incremental Innovation which
actually is probably a more more
sustainable path to building a
successful business but how do you think
about that trade-off okay so two things
there's the Seth Goden response which I
love or no actually I can't remember it
was either Seth Goden or Chuck penck
those two couldn't be more different but
I have no idea why both those
neurons uh but they said there is no
such thing as writer block you when
you're on a deadline you just have to
get it done and I'm yeah I agree with
that the other thing though I will say
is that I really get driven crazy when
people say uh I'm overwhelmed then do
less so I think people ought to be able
to and I use that word as a moral
judgment I'm realizing uh they ought you
hope that people are capable of go on
yeah well no I really do mean not uh
they ought to be capable of saying oh I
need to stare out the window for a while
I need to go for a walk um I'm not
feeling creative right now and that
they'll create that space so my thing is
when you leave it all out on the field
you you're not worried about judging
yourself because you know look I I show
up every day and I play a not every day
we all have days where we're like I was
just lazy today but if you don't lie to
yourself and you know that way on
balance you really do play your guts out
um then when it's like you know I really
think what I need right now is to stop
down and just cuddle my wife for a day
it doesn't even I'm not saying like take
15 minutes people need to really think
about what do I need to do to optimize
myself whether and so if your job has
that element of creativity to it and you
need to stare out a window or go to
Beach or whatever 100% do it but you
need I if you want to achieve the
extraordinary you need to be able to
trust yourself to say I will do this
until I know I'm now avoiding something
else and it's no longer adding up to
something and because I have earned that
within myself when I need time off I
take time off M I would say ideally
before you need it right I don't that I
might suck at yeah you you don't want to
be the person I mean I've I've done this
literally in a car more times than I'd
like to admit like waiting until it
tells you you can go zero miles before
you pull off to the gas station ideally
you're scheduling the quarter tank yeah
no how do you do that I think I'm
usually trying not to waste time and it
wasn't on my plan to stop for gas
interesting okay but I clearly need to
rethink that because I I I had it hit
zero and the gas station was not in
sight and that was a little terrifying
have you few gas I've never I've never
had a this is the other problem every
time it hits zero like well I've never
run out before that must be lying to me
there must be a little bit more left in
the tank and I do not want to push that
any further but yeah I think obviously
humans aren't machines but the idea of
scheduling breaks at planned intervals I
think is really important so what would
you say what would you say to a
Beethoven who wants to take walks as
long as his workday um and who only
really seem to do three or four hours of
focused work a day like you don't get
greater at music than Beethoven yeah I
mean that that would be my answer so the
thing I think everybody should judge
themselves by are the results and
results that are um set by you what what
are you looking for what is the metric
by which you're going to judge success
and so I think one of the things people
really struggle with is they don't have
Clarity they don't know what they want
and if you don't know what you want then
you're not going to be able to measure
whether you're getting there or not so
if somebody knows you're Beethoven
you're like this is how many symphonies
I want to write this month or this year
whatever and then did you do the things
that you needed to do in order to hit
that and now we should probably talk
what really is the punchline of life
which is I think at the highest level
it's how you feel about yourself when
you're by yourself so if you don't like
yourself all the money and success in
the world your life will still suck and
you will be racing toward suicide um so
I wouldn't do that so I would do things
that really earn your respect but you
have to be careful because you're going
to respect yourself based on your
beliefs and your values so be thoughtful
about what you build your beliefs and
values around you talk a lot about this
you need to anchor on something that's
real like you need to be lathering your
hard work and all that around something
you actually care about otherwise you're
going to be in trouble um but if he
loves his life back to Beethoven if he
loves his life and he's hitting his
goals I don't have any problem with that
I don't mind if somebody wants to stare
at a wall all day like I really don't
mind that I want to help people achieve
what they want to achieve I mind that a
little because I at least want that to
be useful to other people yeah lay out
for me what ought and I use that word in
the moral sense what ought people um
strive for well I I don't think it's my
place to determine that so I'm kind of
with you whatever your your values are I
want to try to figure out how you can
align your goals and your behaviors with
those values but you know I think we
should have a hierarchy of values I
think you know all else equal if you're
if you're doing something that's useful
to other people and makes their lives
better I feel much better about that
than if it's totally self- serving you
just touched on something that
I have a real issue with in Hustle
culture and it sounds like you do too
which is when people turn hard work into
a virtue they forget that hard work is
actually not in and of itself um a
morally worthy end it's a means to end
age with really yeah okay wait so let's
talk about this reading your book I was
like oh yeah I'm a Puritan I am a child
of the Puritan I mean your Protestant
Revolution like you you've you've
internalized the Protestant work ethic
100% I I think I I did too for for a
long time and I still subscribed to
parts of it like I'm a give Parts you
hate about it yeah I mean well look okay
so I'm let me do the double-edge sword
I'm a beneficiary and maybe also a
victim of learned industriousness the
idea that you get rewarded over and over
again for effort which is what Carol DW
and other growth mindset researchers
have long encouraged and then at some
point effort itself starts to take on
secondary reward properties and the
feeling of hard work itself is
satisfying I have felt that since at
least I was a teenager maybe even
earlier and it's propelled a lot of the
the growth that I've achieved at the
same time sometimes I work hard at
something because uh you know I
internalize a goal of somebody else's
and then I realized this doesn't benefit
anyone and I don't enjoy it and so if
I'm not working hard on something that I
think is worthwhile why am I investing
my hard work there and that's the part I
would question do you object to
that so I've long thought of it in the
following way I'm always trying to
figure out what has Evolution optimized
us for so Evolution only has two levers
Pleasure and Pain and with those two
very blunt instruments it creates an
incredible diversity of behavior and I
have a feeling that the following
statement is evolutionarily accurate
though I don't have um hard science to
back this up but when I think
about fulfillment being the the closest
thing to the ideal state that I can
steer people towards and the reason I
stear people towards fulfillment instead
of happiness happiness is very transient
you can't be happy and grieve at the
same time but you can be fulfilled and
grieving at the same time so that just
strikes me it's a positive State it's
far more resilient um so I started
thinking okay what is fulfillment what
is it born of I think it's the following
though if somebody has a better
definition I'm here for it um you must
work hard to gain a set of skills that
you care about for whatever intrinsic
reason that allow you to serve not only
yourself but
others I think those are all
evolutionary levers that nature had to
incentivize so we're a social creature
so if you're just doing it for yourself
you won't feel right unless you're a
sociopath and if somebody came to me and
they were like I am profoundly depressed
I'd say go serve somebody like but
really go serve somebody and I think the
I barring a catastrophic
like inability to create serotonin or
whatever I don't think you can
meaningfully serve others and be
depressed it's a it's a gut instinct I
have not run any tests but I that seems
pretty relevant and then the work hard
part to me
is evolution from an evolutionary
standpoint life was hyper dangerous and
very difficult and if you weren't
courageous and willing to work hard then
you were going to starve to death
effectively and so that feels like the
right cocktail of if you align yourself
with those things you'll just feel
better so interesting okay so I have I
have thoughts and questions um let's
let's start on the serving others um
question for a second so on the one hand
I'm I'm in agreement with you that um
actually empirically if you look at the
effect sizes on average um helping other
people is about as good for reducing
depression and anxiety as taking the
best known anti-depressants and
anti-anxiety medications on the market
surprised not bigger um it might be it's
the I think part of the problem is it's
hard to quantify and compare so you know
how many hours of you know of service or
generosity do we equate to a given dose
milligrams of an antidepressant you
would know more about that than I would
but I don't I don't know how to do it
from a behavior perspective but um and
this is not to say by the way that I
think helping others is a substitute for
medication um or for therapy um it's
just to say it has a really powerful
effect the same way that we would tell
someone look the average effects of
exercise um are huge and you should not
Overlook those because that's a behavior
you can control on the other hand there
is um there is good evidence I'm
thinking about um helus and Fritz among
others uh to suggest that there's a
particular kind of service that can be
problematic from a depression and
anxiety standpoint which is basically
self-sacrifice um they call it
unmitigated communion and it's the idea
of I care a lot about helping other
people and I have zero concern for
myself and then I start to sacrifice
sleep um I don't work out uh I don't
spend time doing things that nourish me
I'm all about just responding to other
people's needs because I want to be
needed and I've come to believe that
actually being needed could be a little
unhealthy that needed too much or needed
full stop um I think that I have a
problem with the idea of being needed
that someone else is fully dependent on
me what I want to be is valued as a
father of three help me reconcile that
well look I I think maybe there are
exceptions to that I think it's okay for
kids to need their parents but also you
want to teach your kids to be
independent and to be self-sufficient at
some point or to rely on others for
specific things but not to need one
person for everything and so I'd much
rather be valued than needed in general
I guess I'm thinking about friendships
and can you give me when you say value
just the other person's like wow I'm
glad you're in my life I think it's um I
think about it a lot when people ask for
help um I need you to do this versus I
would really appreciate it if you could
do this um I want I want anybody who's
in a position to to seek help to have
multiple places to go um and to not be
solely relying on one person and I think
it's a great travesty of modern society
that a lot of people don't have access
to
that very interesting uh I had not
thought about that before okay so that
makes sense to me I think it is a big
thing that people need to serve
themselves as well as others um that's
why I think it's really important that
whatever you're working hard at is
something that for whatever reason that
you don't need to justify to people
you're just into that thing um like I
have known for a very long time that the
way that I would contribute to others
was through storytelling it may not be
the most effective though I do think
it's pretty potent but the reality is
I'm not pursuing it because I think it's
the best I'm pursuing it because that's
my passion uh and so finding something
that you love being Unapologetic about
it but finding a way that you can
leverage that
to uh lift somebody else up make them
smile whatever I don't go play guitar
but have a sense of I play guitar as a
way to bring some joy to other people
and not just bu myself in my room again
not because I pass a moral judgment on
that I don't but because I think that
it's not in line with what evolution had
in mind and so you will end up feeling a
profound sense of disease and not know
why yeah so I I I think we're we're in
sync there I think it's interesting I'm
reminded of there was an eie white quote
that I loved uh where he said uh I wake
up in the morning torn between a desire
to enjoy the world and prove the world
and this makes it very difficult to plan
the day it's pretty good it kind of does
but I think um the the research I've
read on this says that over time people
gravitate toward trying to align the two
and say I want to find things that I
enjoy that are also helpful to others
and I want to find ways of helping
others that I personally enjoy and but I
think whichever place you start that's
the only sustainable place to land that
makes sense so now talk to me about what
what does it take to really become
extraordinary you have a lot of examples
in the book not the least of which is
your own with diving and and how you got
better and better there uh but even
somebody like Steph Curry whose
documentary if I remember right is
called underrated yeah um and he's a
great example in the book what what is
that process well let's start with Steph
Curry because I think there's there's an
incredible scene in the documentary that
that came out after I turned in the book
it's like oh this is this is a this is a
missing scene um I I learned so much
from his trainer Brandon Payne about how
they they structure practice uh to bring
out the best in Steph Curry and keep him
I think he's already the best shooter in
the history of basketball and he wants
to keep getting better so if you look
back at how he did that early on um
there's this scene you you saw the
documentary I haven't you haven't seen
it yet okay so I don't want to do a
spoiler on the whole thing but you kind
of already know where he ends up uh but
there's one scene in particular that I
can knock it out of my head which is uh
Steph Curry's in high school he's short
um he's he's not six feet yet no way
he's going to be tall enough to make the
NBA based on that growth trajectory I
think is probably the Assumption and
he's got a huge problem which is every
time he takes a shot and he's guarded by
somebody who is tall he gets blocked
because he's shooting from his hip and
it's a really slow developing shot um it
comes from low people can see it coming
and then just SWAT it down and sometimes
they don't even have to jump and he
watch this guy is going nowhere so he
talks to his dad um it helps to have a
dad who is an NBA player yeah would you
run into that that wall and his dad says
you've got to rebuild your shot if you
want to get to the next level if you
want to play in college you have to you
have to stop shooting from the hip and
start releasing higher um it's going to
be a faster release it's also going to
be harder to block um that's that's your
path and you watch Steph Curry literally
lose the ability to shoot he has to
start over and go back to the drawing
board and I think a lot of people are
unwilling to do that because he was a
really good shooter shooting from his
hip and the idea of going backward and
saying I've got to give up the gains
I've already made and start over from
scratch that's just too much to lose I
don't want to do it but Steph Curry is
passionately committed to getting better
and he wants to play in college so he
literally goes through months of just
brick after brick after brick so what do
I take from that I take from from that a
couple things one sometimes you have to
reverse to go forward um a step back can
lead to two steps forward if you find a
better method and that's exactly what
he's doing two you have to then be
willing to to embrace the discomfort of
saying this is going to feel like crap
and three you have to be willing to
tolerate imperfection and say I'm going
to make a lot of mistakes I'm going to
get worse on the path to getting better
um and that to me is a bunch of
character skills that we don't teach
enough uh but we ought
to okay but I'm going to guess that
there is a lot more than just a
willingness to go backwards what do we
in terms of um drilling repetition
ability to push through boredom like
where where where what breaks most
people cuz I've said many times boredom
kills more dreams than failure ever will
um from an entrepreneur standpoint yeah
I see that all the time in terms of
people that I work with in terms of
entrepreneurs that come to me seeking
help I'm just like the number of days
that you're going to spend doing things
that you absolutely do not want to do
but they just have to get done in order
to get to the next level it's like you
can avoid it a little bit more maybe if
you're uh you know just working for
somebody else because you can uh what do
they call it quiet quitting you can back
off pick your generation but if you're
going to be the one responsible for
everybody's paycheck all of a sudden you
just have to do it um it's an idea that
you touch on in the book yeah what's
what's the deal okay so long before
burnout what you're talking about is the
problem that psychologists call bore out
which I was delighted to find it's an
actual term literally you're bored out
of your mind and I think that comes from
the way that most people think about
deliberate practice which is I've got to
I've got to just push my th myself
through I've got to I've got to push as
hard as I can through this slog um it's
monotonous it's repetitive but I know I
need to do it um and the problem is like
bore out is sort of the opposite of
burnout in that it's under stimulation
and chronically that actually is a
source of burnout and that's your point
about how boredom kills more dreams than
than failure does because um repeated
experiences of Bor bore out just at some
point you're like I I cannot I can't
find the will to do this I just don't
want to do it anymore I'm
exhausted so um Steph Curry's trainer
Brandon Payne has a really interesting
solution to this uh he he does what I
would call um drawing from whole body of
work in sports psychology deliberate
play as opposed to deliberate practice
and it's the idea that I want to take
the the specific skill I want to build
and I want to I don't want to gamify it
in the sense that we're going toate
create a leaderboard um or a bunch of
bells and whistles to trick you into
liking the thing you hate I actually
want to re-engineer the very process of
skill building so it's fun so for Steph
an example of one of the games Brandon
created is called 21 he's got a minute
and a half to score 21 points from
anywhere on the court and the shots are
deliberately calibrated so that his best
shot of making the 21 is to shoot from
places that he's not that accurate and
also he's got to move really fast and
get out of breath so that he's
simulating what he do in a real game and
guess what that score he has a personal
best which is okay how fast can I do 21
and then instead of having to to compete
against other people he's actually
trying to compete against his best uh
excuse me instead of having to to try to
compete against other people he's
basically trying to raise the bar for
his future self um and defeat his past
self and I think that kind of deliberate
play is a great solution to Bor out
because you're taking the Daily Grind
and you're actually turning it into a
source of daily Joy it is a fun
challenge for Steph Curry to say okay
can I get 21 in a minute today how do
you want people to apply this in their
normal life like does all this stuff
apply to uh a career does this only
apply if you're in sports like how do
you how do you apply this if you're not
the entrepreneur you're in the
accounting department at a big company
well let me let me actually give you my
personal example because after writing
this chapter I was like yeah I should
probably practice what I was teaching
there and see if I can put this into
action
so I was thinking about the most boring
parts of my job and the thing I hate
most as an author is editing just bores
the hell out of me like I already I
figured out the idea the AHA the Insight
is there I've covered the evidence I
found a story to bring it to life and
now I'm just tinkering it's like you
know I'm on the one yard line and I've
already marched all the way down the
field the last yard takes so much effort
to try to refine it and it doesn't feel
to me like I'm learning anything or
contributing anything
but I know it matters for the reader
experience and it's the task that I
procrastinate on most most I will start
the next chapter instead of editing the
last one uh I'll put it away for weeks
because I just don't get energized by it
and then I wrote this chapter about
deliberate play and said I've got to
turn this into deliberate play how do I
do that all right let me um Let Me Take
A I've got specific things I'm trying to
improve in my editing so one thing that
I I've struggled with for a long time is
um is concreteness and imagery um I'm an
abstract thinker I'm very cognitive um I
start with the data and I need to I need
to have lots of vivid stories so that
people can who are much more I guess
more narrative oriented than I am for
for you for example you love stories
right I need to have a story in there
that you can relate to and say ah okay
that makes the evidence stick so I'm
trying to rewrite a paragraph I'm trying
to turn a study into a
story like why don't why don't I try to
write this in the voice of Maya Angelou
and that's my game can I take a
paragraph and rewrite it as Maya Angelou
would write it always Maya Angelou no so
that was the first thought and then I
thought okay I went to poetry because
poets are great at imagery let me also
go to some of my favorite fiction
authors how would John Green write this
story how would JK Rowling do it how
would Maggie Smith do it and that
becomes a little experiment where every
day I've got a different author I'm
working on and I'm trying to write a
little bit in their voice and now we
have Claude and chat GPT and I can
actually compare what I came up with to
what the generative AI tool produced and
learned something in the process editing
is fun now no I I don't want to say it's
fun it's kind of fun and I almost like
it that's really interesting so how did
how did you come up with that game how
do people figure out what their way of
making something play is it's a really
good question so for me it started with
I was actually reading um I was reading
Harlen Cobin uh who's just great at page
Turners and I was like wow okay like how
would how how would har cin do this and
then I realized it wasn't enough of a
stretch for me because Haren builds a
lot of psychology into his books and so
I went to Maya Angelo as a more extreme
option um how would I do that if I if I
were in a different area I think where I
would start is I would say let's look at
well let's let's take a jot what's a
task you hate Tom that you find boring
oh God anything to do Finance okay what
bores you about Finance in particular um
there is something weird about the way
my brain processes numbers I can feel
myself it's like running a marathon in
quicksand and so all of the sudden when
I I go from like what we're doing now I
feel sharp I feel alert I can put ideas
together very quickly uh but once it
gets to math I can do it and I at times
feel like I think about the numbers in a
more useful way than many of my
peers however I do it so
slowly that I'm just like this is really
unbearable it it I cognitively feel
unrecognizable to myself it's very weird
and so that makes it because it's so
inefficient it just makes it a real SLO
and there's no story there's no emotion
to it it's all just like where do we
have to cut where do we add oh God okay
and so what's what's the like what are
you trying to do with numbers that
involves learning or skill building so
uh that involves learning or skill
building that I'm not sure yet I don't
know how to answer that question but but
I will say trying what I'm trying to get
to is okay how do we Capital allocate um
knowing what my goals are where do I
allocate the resources in order to get
to that next level or what story is the
data telling that gets a little more fun
in terms of trying to actually analyze
but as you like really dig in you start
trying to cross check to make sure I'm
not telling a fake story that this is
the real story that the data is telling
um that just gets really tedious okay so
if you put I would start one option
would be to pick something you already
enjoy and try to graft it onto this
process so could you write a comic book
about your Capital allocation it's
really interesting um I don't know I'd
have to think about that the way I have
done it historically is I will reward
myself so like okay this is your
objective you need to get this done by
this time and if you get that done by
that time then I get to move on to the
things that I find fun so uh I will
often do if I have art to review which I
love uh I'll say okay I see that I've
got art to review but I also have
Finance to do I'm going to do the
finance first and if I finish it you
know by whatever time then I can go do
the art stuff um but I've never thought
about how to turn that into a game I I
mean I think it's the timer is
interesting it's an experiment
definitely an experiment to run yeah so
you can do a timer and accelerate the
reward if you finish a little faster
without making mistakes yeah even just
doing something where I'm beating my
personal best so this goes into okay
we're we build video games here to
impact Theory which not many people know
yet so we think a lot about gamification
and you talk in the book about you don't
want shallow play you want deep play is
it deep play is that what you call it uh
Dan coil called it deep fun which I love
I love the term for instead of shall fun
with that in mind so how do you go from
the shallow gamification of just like
get better time get you know experience
points or whatever in a video game to
something that's deep fun cuz this
really applies to me on multiple levels
one it'll help me better orchestrate a
game of things that I find boring but it
will also help me make better video
games maybe we'll find out uh I think
the difference between shallow and deep
fun is about purpose uh it's it's about
saying hey I'm going to find a way to
enjoy the process of um of working
toward a goal that really matters that I
believe in so um how many people are
working on video games right now uh the
team ues but call
it 15 fulltime okay so what I would do
is I would take those 15 people and say
let's start with um let's do a brain
writing exercise where we're gonna um
we're g to each jot down 20 ideas for
how we're going to take the financing
part of building a video game company um
and make it more fun we're going to
collect everybody's ideas uh we're all
going to rate them independently and
then we're going to just pilot the five
best ideas and then you've got a little
bit of deep fun in the the process of
trying to get everybody's independent
creative problem solving skills focused
on this problem and then ideally they've
also come up with some things that would
be fun to try you do a lot of Consulting
in business right uh I do more
Consulting than I intend to but I've
given up on formal Consulting and made
it advising like I'm I'm happy to to
tell you here's what I've seen in the
randomized controlled experiments and
the longitudal studies I'm happy to give
you examples from other organizations
I've worked with um I will not tell you
how to implement it because your company
is best run by you and I can hold up a
mirror and kind of reflect some problems
to you and generate some solutions you
might not have thought of but you need
to have ownership over whether you're
going to take those seriously or not
right I ask because I'm curious who has
gamified the workload the most
interestingly so I don't know if this
counts as gamified but I'm definitely
going to say it's a version of Deep deep
fun and it's probably a variation on
something we were talking about earlier
which is job crafting so have you ever
been to Morning Star the tomato paste
plant in Northern California believe it
or not I've never even heard of them
okay good so one of the most interesting
organizations I've ever visited so I
went there five or six years ago to do a
podcast episode because I I found out
that they make hundreds of millions of
dollars a year uh they've never had a
single boss since the 1980s and I was
just like this is we've heard about hocy
in the tech World they started it much
earlier and they found a way to make it
effective in manufacturing I just I want
to see that I want to understand yeah
and they do a lot of unusual things that
may not be a good fit for anybody's
company but they do have some processes
that I thought were really compelling so
one thing they do is when you join
Morning Star on day one uh they don't
know how to assign you a job because you
don't report to anyone and eventually
they realized what we should do is just
give you the job of your predecessor and
you do that for the first year