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Language: en
you're going to fail if your plan is to
rely on natural Talent OR mindlessly
clocking 10,000 hours if you want an
outrageous amount of success you're
going to have to throw away most of what
you know and build a real path to
Mastery there is a reason that most of
you will die with your potential still
trapped inside of you but I'm joined
today by best-selling author and
celebrated Professor Adam Grant and our
goal is to map out the exact path you
can walk to beat the odds and be
celebrated in Valhalla
somehow the growth mindset has become
controversial because despite how many
of us preach it people are still
struggling so what is it that all of us
are getting wrong about self-help I
actually studied this with um Amy resesi
and Justin Berg we did an experiment at
a tech company where we tried to teach
people growth mindset um and have them
think about what skills do you want to
develop take maybe some talents that you
thought were fixed will get you to
reframe them as flexible and we found
that that alone didn't change their
happiness and it didn't boost their job
performance we needed to do something
extra for them which is um have them
change the environment around them so
there was a group of people who got
randomly assigned not only to think
about themselves as you know as
malleable but also their jobs as
malleable so think about your job as you
know as a basically a set of of tasks
and interactions um those are building
blocks uh they probably weren't designed
for you right it's a job description
that was written by somebody else but
you could change the size of those
blocks you can make some of them bigger
you can make some of them smaller you
could bring in strengths that maybe
weren't designed into your job and and
try to do what Amy and Jane Dutton have
called job crafting where you become an
active architect to your job and and you
actually customize it to try to better
suit your your capabilities that you
have and the ones you want to develop
and it turns out that if we give you
that growth mindset about your job as
well as your skills you see a
sustainable boost in your happiness over
the next six months at work um there's
no cost to your performance and there
might even be some gains and so I think
the the idea here is to say let's not
just look inward at changing our
ourselves we also need to to alter our
context to better fit where we're trying
to grow so I'll take a slightly
different read on that as somebody that
my All of My Success is predicated on
the adoption of a growth mindset what I
realized was when I didn't think I could
get better it had a radical impact on
all of my Downstream behaviors so
ultimately only your behaviors matter so
you can do the right thing for the wrong
reason you're still going to get the
right result but if you understand that
all of those behaviors are Downstream of
the things that you believe to be true
then you realize okay the thing I
actually need to tackle is it is an
internal job as far as I can tell that
because if I don't believe that I can
get better at something or I don't
believe that I can shape my job then I
won't try it's a self-filling prophecy
exactly when I think about okay how do
we make lasting change in somebody that
wants to change that's the first thing I
go to you have to adopt the only belief
that matters you have to believe if you
put time and energy into getting better
at something you will actually get
better and it's interesting you're
actually making me rethink cuz I always
say that that if you put time and energy
into getting better you'll get better
but there is a secondary part that I
think you're getting at here which is I
have to believe that I can shape things
to my will now the interesting thing is
that's what I always call power I don't
know how you feel about the word power
that one's also become a little
controversial I didn't grow up in an era
where that word was weird so like I'm so
comfortable but to me that's personal
power you close your eyes you imagine a
world better than this this one you open
your eyes and you acquire the skills
necessary to actually go and execute and
get the skills you need to do the things
you want to do and so I often remind my
team because the way I came up I didn't
start I didn't found my first company
until IID worked my way up from uh
copywriter to partner and so I'm like
I'm not the CEO and that's why I think
like this I became the CEO because I
think like this and so the way that you
really get ahead is to just act as if
you can completely change everything in
front of you you can change your job you
can persuade people to see things your
way you're not always going to pull it
off but if you believe it's doable then
you'll behave accordingly I think that
what you're calling power could also be
seen as agency right which is I have the
the freedom and the leeway to shape my
environment I'm not a a sculpture of my
context I'm actually a sculptor of it
and I think we we all need that I think
the the other thing is I I think you're
making important distinction that growth
mindset is not it's not a Magic Bullet
it's not a Panacea but the absence of
one can be devastating so if I have a
completely fixed mindset it's really
hard to imagine that I'm going to
operate to try to change my environment
um because I'm kind of I believe that
I'm stuck with it and I think that
that's that's a a really reasonable
place to land um I wonder I'm just I'm
thinking out loud here are we allowed to
think out loud I think you know I like
that I I think you like it I like too
and I I feel like I don't do enough of
it because my job as an organizational
psychologist is to start with the
evidence and like okay here's what the
evidence says but the evidence always
leaves questions unanswered and so let's
let's think this throughout loud so um
you think about belief as a driver of
behavior I think that's right I think
Behavior also can reinforce your beliefs
and so this can become a a virtuous
cycle over time so you you start out
thinking I can change my environment um
and I can improve myself then you act in
ways that that basically confirm that
and then you get feedback from your
environment that says wait a minute that
worked let me do more of that and so you
might be somebody who feels like
opportunity hasn't knocked and you
realize maybe there's a way I can build
a door okay that is one of the driving
forces in the book that you've written
hidden potential as soon as I saw the
topic I was like between the topic and
you this is definitely going to be one
that I'm excited to explore uh but what
I want to know is why does potential
remain hidden are there myths or DS that
people propagate and look it I'm
perfectly happy if I'm like telling
people something that ultimately doesn't
work then I will immediately get rid of
that all I care about is creating actual
impact on people so uh you need not pull
punches so I in fact I will ask for
advice I don't know how much you know
about the things I I spout but what are
the the misconceptions that people have
what's the [ __ ] that people are
spreading that actually leaves people
with the the potential dormant I think
the great myth of potential is that you
can judge where people will Land by
where they start we do this to ourselves
we do this to others constantly um the
assumption is if you're a natural if
you're a prodigy then you're going to go
on to do great things and if you
struggle at first if a task doesn't come
easily to you then you might as well
give up and look elsewhere um I think
you're you're living proof that's not
true but there's also a lot of science
that that backs it up so one of my
favorite studies looked at World Class
athletes scientists artists and
musicians um trying to figure out when
could you see their potential and it
turned out that the vast majority of
them people at the very top of every
field um did not stand out when they
were young um their teachers did not
necessarily think they were anything
special their coaches didn't and neither
did their own parents in some cases
which I want to have a conversation with
those parents later but um it's it's
staggering that when they did stand out
they stood out more for unusual
motivation than unusual ability
and I think what that tells us is yeah
everybody starts at a different place
but ultimately the question of potential
is the distance you can travel um as
opposed to you know what's what's the
natural level of aptitude that you were
born into or that you locked into so
that to me is the the starting myth that
that gets a lot of people in
trouble okay so the one stat that I've
heard that um seems odd given that is
that a lot of times professional
athletes end up being I think you even
talk about this in the book end up being
towards the older bigger in their class
uh I always thought then the knock on
effect of that is that they're
outperforming they are more confident
they get more attention from the coaches
but then I would assume that they people
would be like oh that kid's really got
it yep but that's not true at least
that's not what you just said so it's I
would say it's incomplete so you can
tell that story and that will explain a
bunch of people's trajectories um and
those people those kids weren't at the
beginning better right they just had the
natural advantage of being older and
therefore being bigger and stronger and
faster and smarter um I think though
that there are two wrinkles that you
could add to the table so one is um if
you look at the hockey data uh so it's
true that if a hockey player is born in
January or February significantly more
likely to become a star make the NHL
what we don't talk about is the fact
that the later you're born as a hockey
player if you do make it the more
successful you become so the November
and December bursts at the end of the
year they do have lower odds of getting
there if they can break through they
have a greater shot at becoming Allstar
caliber players and I think part of that
is some people would say well they had
to be that much better to begin with to
make it I think that might be part of
the story but I think there's also a
piece of the story that says you know
what they had to learn to get that much
better in order to overcome the
obstacles that they were facing so I
think that's that's one big wrinkle um
that we don't we don't talk about that
overlooked group that you know is
overlooked um they're underdogs they
tend to be you know in a lot of cases
later Bloomers but they ultimately make
it and sometimes rise to Greater Heights
uh I think that's that's probably the
first principle the second principle is
if you look at the the brand new data on
um this is also mn's work Brook mnea
what she and her colleague shows that uh
the elite junior athletes are less
likely to make it to world class and so
there's one group of kids that basically
specializes early um they go all in on a
sport um they Peak fast and then they
burn out um and sometimes they burn out
because uh they're just exhausted
mentally in other cases they burn out
because they they literally pound the
pavement so hard that their bodies can't
handle it any more whereas the kids who
wait longer to specialize who delay that
Focus they end up um you know sort of
they end up Rising slower but ultimately
they're more likely to get to the very
top of international competitions uh and
I think there's there's a case to be
made there that what we need is a
sampling period which is we try out a
bunch of activities we figure out where
maybe some of our our skills lie but
also where our motivation lies but also
the cross trainining pays off over time
and so I guess there's a there's a
second story that people tell here which
is okay if you're not a natural Talent
believer then you're a hard work
believer and your story is if you
worship at the altar of the altar of
hustle if you pray to the high priest of
grit then you're done like no it's not
about how hard you work it's about how
well you learn um and we've all heard
cliches about working smarter not
working harder um but I think the actual
skills involved in working smarter get
far too little attention so what do you
make of all that uh so you're taking
notes you have multiple reactions care
well I'm taking notes on things that we
will definitely get to um but first on
that
particular I'm going to put it in a work
context for a second which is a if you
think of business as a sport which I do
then this will connect directly um I
consider business the only sport that
you don't from a bodily standpoint you
don't have a a clock on you look at
Warren Buffett still going he's in his
80s right so it's really an
extraordinary thing that you can play as
long as you want to play um but I think
that people need to work long hard and
smart and people will inevitably push
back on me and they'll say Tom if I'm
working hard and smart why do I have to
also work long hours and my answer is
because you're going to go up against me
and I'm doing all three and obviously
I've read your book I've heard you talk
so I know some of the punchline is that
play is an incredibly important part of
this and so of course I agree with you
wholeheartedly and so I'll I'll add a
fourth thing and say you need to work
long hard and smart at something that
you are obsessed with so for me I've
literally structured my life to be I
mean as close to play as you're going to
get I mean we're in your garage right
now right we are technically in my
garage though I respond violently to
that CU I don't like cars uh so but my
thing is I've really tried to handcraft
my life to be the things that I love so
for instance um if I'm playing Minecraft
right now I would be playing it as a way
to learn because we're building a video
game okay that's not an accident our
video game is done in a style of gaming
meets anime that's not an accident those
are the things that I love uh we make
comics why because I read Comics right
we make comics in the style of manwa why
because I love manga anybody anybody
that understands that connection will
get it but it's like okay so my life is
really me
asking if I didn't have to worry about
money what would I do and then try to
make money off that thing but I really
do feel like if you want to be one of
the greats man and maybe people don't
and I hear that but I'm just saying if
you want to be one of the greats you
really are gonna have to go that
hard yeah I don't think I disagree with
that I think I think what you're talking
about is being an outlier um at the very
extreme of success I don't want that to
be true but I worry that it is I mean I
think look yeah if you want to be at the
very top of where you're going there's
no question that you're going to have to
work hard as part of it um I would say
hard work is not enough number one we
know that and number two there is such a
thing as as overworking to the point
that you either kill your motivation or
you undermine your own creativity and
what you do see I think I think we can
make a pretty compelling case that
there's a trade-off at some point
between quantity and quality and so the
21st hour that you're putting in the day
is probably less valuable than sleep
that's interesting so let's map that out
uh I believe the most important thing
well go okay God uh I'm going to talk
from a behavior standpoint not from a
punchline of Life the punchline of life
is fulfillment it's love it's all the
beautiful things that life has offered
but within the context of I love how you
just made that a disclaimer by the way
yes of course the things that matter
we're not going to talk about but let's
talk about this stff that doesn't we'll
get to those but just to to map the
edges of this for a second so with
within those confines of knowing I'm
talking behaviors right now sleep is the
most important so I didn't want to say
sleep's the most important and then
people are like oh [ __ ] You Like Love is
All That Matters yes I get it I'm just
talking behaviors if you don't get sleep
you will not optimize your brain so
anytime that I or anybody else start to
diminish their sleep then I'm like you
have a problem uh just because you won't
be a even if your goal is just to work
as hard as humanly possible you will
begin to diminish your ability to do
that you will get brain fog you won't be
able to focus like I have to imagine
though you'll probably know the science
of this that you can measure a decrease
in
IQ if you're fatigued oh easy yeah yeah
although you know there are ways to
upset that too so one of my favorite
studies that didn't make the book um and
this is I think worth a quick detour
there was a this was a HRI at all paper
um they did a NASA simulation with
flight Crews and it turned out that
flight Crews that were exhausted um
actually made um fewer potentially
catastrophic errors uh in their fewer
fewer if they'd flown together before
than a brand new crew with no shared
flying experience okay but what about a
well-rested team that's flown together
that would probably be the best of both
worlds that's interesting so they're
saying that the if you don't know each
other well enough that's worse than
being tired yeah and maybe there's a
greater loss to collective intelligence
that comes from not knowing each other's
strengths and weaknesses not having
effective routines not having Norms
where you're allowed to challenge each
other if you see a problem but I think
I'm 100% with you I would bet on the
well-rested crew that has shared
experience that's really interesting
okay so go back to sleep sleep is the
most important behavior from your
perspective so you don't want to
compromise that yes correct okay but
everything you have a system that's
basically laser focused on what your
professional goals are yes so I I'm huge
into whatever is going to optimize my
cognition so I eat right uh I meditate I
work out all of that stuff which many of
those things I do only because they are
good for cognitive optimization it isn't
something that I intrinsically enjoy I
will say meditation is in and of itself
it's pleasurable for me so that that one
I really like and would do occasionally
even if I didn't think it was moving me
forward um but yeah so that I I
definitely do all of that stuff to
optimize but then beyond that I really
resonate with somebody like Kobe Bryant
who's like look if I'm in the gym for
six hours a day and you're only in the
gym for two hours a day I'm going to eat
you alive like I will just be so far
ahead of you you know Three Seasons Four
Seasons Five Seasons in um I think the
same is true of business look I'm I'm
only so smart so if I can't tune my
genetic dials I have to find the other
dials that I can tune and effort is
certainly one duration is another um and
then just the steady accumulation of
skills since they stack would be another
I think I'm on board with all that I
think the one thing I worry about is the
I guess a little bit of a productivity
creativity trade-off so you you raise
your attentional filters you block out
all the things that might be
distractions your productivity goes up
your learning in the core domain goes up
you also lose out on Eureka moments and
unexpected connections and so the very
thing that seems to interfere with your
productivity the lowering the
attentional filters um lets unexpected
ideas in um and it sounds like you're
you're designing for some of that by
exploring in adjacent areas that you're
working in and I think there's probably
a benefit there but I also wonder like
what's what can you systematize like I I
think Da Vinci probably put it best when
he said like I don't know the exact
translation but it was something like
you can't produce a work of Genius
according to a schedule or an outline
and maybe you're just comfortable
letting go of breakthrough radical
Innovation and doing you know kind of
more incremental Innovation which
actually is probably a more more
sustainable path to building a
successful business but how do you think
about that trade-off okay so two things
there's the Seth Goden response which I
love or no actually I can't remember it
was either Seth Goden or Chuck penck
those two couldn't be more different but
I have no idea why both those
neurons uh but they said there is no
such thing as writer block you when
you're on a deadline you just have to
get it done and I'm yeah I agree with
that the other thing though I will say
is that I really get driven crazy when
people say uh I'm overwhelmed then do
less so I think people ought to be able
to and I use that word as a moral
judgment I'm realizing uh they ought you
hope that people are capable of go on
yeah well no I really do mean not uh
they ought to be capable of saying oh I
need to stare out the window for a while
I need to go for a walk um I'm not
feeling creative right now and that
they'll create that space so my thing is
when you leave it all out on the field
you you're not worried about judging
yourself because you know look I I show
up every day and I play a not every day
we all have days where we're like I was
just lazy today but if you don't lie to
yourself and you know that way on
balance you really do play your guts out
um then when it's like you know I really
think what I need right now is to stop
down and just cuddle my wife for a day
it doesn't even I'm not saying like take
15 minutes people need to really think
about what do I need to do to optimize
myself whether and so if your job has
that element of creativity to it and you
need to stare out a window or go to
Beach or whatever 100% do it but you
need I if you want to achieve the
extraordinary you need to be able to
trust yourself to say I will do this
until I know I'm now avoiding something
else and it's no longer adding up to
something and because I have earned that
within myself when I need time off I
take time off M I would say ideally
before you need it right I don't that I
might suck at yeah you you don't want to
be the person I mean I've I've done this
literally in a car more times than I'd
like to admit like waiting until it
tells you you can go zero miles before
you pull off to the gas station ideally
you're scheduling the quarter tank yeah
no how do you do that I think I'm
usually trying not to waste time and it
wasn't on my plan to stop for gas
interesting okay but I clearly need to
rethink that because I I I had it hit
zero and the gas station was not in
sight and that was a little terrifying
have you few gas I've never I've never
had a this is the other problem every
time it hits zero like well I've never
run out before that must be lying to me
there must be a little bit more left in
the tank and I do not want to push that
any further but yeah I think obviously
humans aren't machines but the idea of
scheduling breaks at planned intervals I
think is really important so what would
you say what would you say to a
Beethoven who wants to take walks as
long as his workday um and who only
really seem to do three or four hours of
focused work a day like you don't get
greater at music than Beethoven yeah I
mean that that would be my answer so the
thing I think everybody should judge
themselves by are the results and
results that are um set by you what what
are you looking for what is the metric
by which you're going to judge success
and so I think one of the things people
really struggle with is they don't have
Clarity they don't know what they want
and if you don't know what you want then
you're not going to be able to measure
whether you're getting there or not so
if somebody knows you're Beethoven
you're like this is how many symphonies
I want to write this month or this year
whatever and then did you do the things
that you needed to do in order to hit
that and now we should probably talk
what really is the punchline of life
which is I think at the highest level
it's how you feel about yourself when
you're by yourself so if you don't like
yourself all the money and success in
the world your life will still suck and
you will be racing toward suicide um so
I wouldn't do that so I would do things
that really earn your respect but you
have to be careful because you're going
to respect yourself based on your
beliefs and your values so be thoughtful
about what you build your beliefs and
values around you talk a lot about this
you need to anchor on something that's
real like you need to be lathering your
hard work and all that around something
you actually care about otherwise you're
going to be in trouble um but if he
loves his life back to Beethoven if he
loves his life and he's hitting his
goals I don't have any problem with that
I don't mind if somebody wants to stare
at a wall all day like I really don't
mind that I want to help people achieve
what they want to achieve I mind that a
little because I at least want that to
be useful to other people yeah lay out
for me what ought and I use that word in
the moral sense what ought people um
strive for well I I don't think it's my
place to determine that so I'm kind of
with you whatever your your values are I
want to try to figure out how you can
align your goals and your behaviors with
those values but you know I think we
should have a hierarchy of values I
think you know all else equal if you're
if you're doing something that's useful
to other people and makes their lives
better I feel much better about that
than if it's totally self- serving you
just touched on something that
I have a real issue with in Hustle
culture and it sounds like you do too
which is when people turn hard work into
a virtue they forget that hard work is
actually not in and of itself um a
morally worthy end it's a means to end
age with really yeah okay wait so let's
talk about this reading your book I was
like oh yeah I'm a Puritan I am a child
of the Puritan I mean your Protestant
Revolution like you you've you've
internalized the Protestant work ethic
100% I I think I I did too for for a
long time and I still subscribed to
parts of it like I'm a give Parts you
hate about it yeah I mean well look okay
so I'm let me do the double-edge sword
I'm a beneficiary and maybe also a
victim of learned industriousness the
idea that you get rewarded over and over
again for effort which is what Carol DW
and other growth mindset researchers
have long encouraged and then at some
point effort itself starts to take on
secondary reward properties and the
feeling of hard work itself is
satisfying I have felt that since at
least I was a teenager maybe even
earlier and it's propelled a lot of the
the growth that I've achieved at the
same time sometimes I work hard at
something because uh you know I
internalize a goal of somebody else's
and then I realized this doesn't benefit
anyone and I don't enjoy it and so if
I'm not working hard on something that I
think is worthwhile why am I investing
my hard work there and that's the part I
would question do you object to
that so I've long thought of it in the
following way I'm always trying to
figure out what has Evolution optimized
us for so Evolution only has two levers
Pleasure and Pain and with those two
very blunt instruments it creates an
incredible diversity of behavior and I
have a feeling that the following
statement is evolutionarily accurate
though I don't have um hard science to
back this up but when I think
about fulfillment being the the closest
thing to the ideal state that I can
steer people towards and the reason I
stear people towards fulfillment instead
of happiness happiness is very transient
you can't be happy and grieve at the
same time but you can be fulfilled and
grieving at the same time so that just
strikes me it's a positive State it's
far more resilient um so I started
thinking okay what is fulfillment what
is it born of I think it's the following
though if somebody has a better
definition I'm here for it um you must
work hard to gain a set of skills that
you care about for whatever intrinsic
reason that allow you to serve not only
yourself but
others I think those are all
evolutionary levers that nature had to
incentivize so we're a social creature
so if you're just doing it for yourself
you won't feel right unless you're a
sociopath and if somebody came to me and
they were like I am profoundly depressed
I'd say go serve somebody like but
really go serve somebody and I think the
I barring a catastrophic
like inability to create serotonin or
whatever I don't think you can
meaningfully serve others and be
depressed it's a it's a gut instinct I
have not run any tests but I that seems
pretty relevant and then the work hard
part to me
is evolution from an evolutionary
standpoint life was hyper dangerous and
very difficult and if you weren't
courageous and willing to work hard then
you were going to starve to death
effectively and so that feels like the
right cocktail of if you align yourself
with those things you'll just feel
better so interesting okay so I have I
have thoughts and questions um let's
let's start on the serving others um
question for a second so on the one hand
I'm I'm in agreement with you that um
actually empirically if you look at the
effect sizes on average um helping other
people is about as good for reducing
depression and anxiety as taking the
best known anti-depressants and
anti-anxiety medications on the market
surprised not bigger um it might be it's
the I think part of the problem is it's
hard to quantify and compare so you know
how many hours of you know of service or
generosity do we equate to a given dose
milligrams of an antidepressant you
would know more about that than I would
but I don't I don't know how to do it
from a behavior perspective but um and
this is not to say by the way that I
think helping others is a substitute for
medication um or for therapy um it's
just to say it has a really powerful
effect the same way that we would tell
someone look the average effects of
exercise um are huge and you should not
Overlook those because that's a behavior
you can control on the other hand there
is um there is good evidence I'm
thinking about um helus and Fritz among
others uh to suggest that there's a
particular kind of service that can be
problematic from a depression and
anxiety standpoint which is basically
self-sacrifice um they call it
unmitigated communion and it's the idea
of I care a lot about helping other
people and I have zero concern for
myself and then I start to sacrifice
sleep um I don't work out uh I don't
spend time doing things that nourish me
I'm all about just responding to other
people's needs because I want to be
needed and I've come to believe that
actually being needed could be a little
unhealthy that needed too much or needed
full stop um I think that I have a
problem with the idea of being needed
that someone else is fully dependent on
me what I want to be is valued as a
father of three help me reconcile that
well look I I think maybe there are
exceptions to that I think it's okay for
kids to need their parents but also you
want to teach your kids to be
independent and to be self-sufficient at
some point or to rely on others for
specific things but not to need one
person for everything and so I'd much
rather be valued than needed in general
I guess I'm thinking about friendships
and can you give me when you say value
just the other person's like wow I'm
glad you're in my life I think it's um I
think about it a lot when people ask for
help um I need you to do this versus I
would really appreciate it if you could
do this um I want I want anybody who's
in a position to to seek help to have
multiple places to go um and to not be
solely relying on one person and I think
it's a great travesty of modern society
that a lot of people don't have access
to
that very interesting uh I had not
thought about that before okay so that
makes sense to me I think it is a big
thing that people need to serve
themselves as well as others um that's
why I think it's really important that
whatever you're working hard at is
something that for whatever reason that
you don't need to justify to people
you're just into that thing um like I
have known for a very long time that the
way that I would contribute to others
was through storytelling it may not be
the most effective though I do think
it's pretty potent but the reality is
I'm not pursuing it because I think it's
the best I'm pursuing it because that's
my passion uh and so finding something
that you love being Unapologetic about
it but finding a way that you can
leverage that
to uh lift somebody else up make them
smile whatever I don't go play guitar
but have a sense of I play guitar as a
way to bring some joy to other people
and not just bu myself in my room again
not because I pass a moral judgment on
that I don't but because I think that
it's not in line with what evolution had
in mind and so you will end up feeling a
profound sense of disease and not know
why yeah so I I I think we're we're in
sync there I think it's interesting I'm
reminded of there was an eie white quote
that I loved uh where he said uh I wake
up in the morning torn between a desire
to enjoy the world and prove the world
and this makes it very difficult to plan
the day it's pretty good it kind of does
but I think um the the research I've
read on this says that over time people
gravitate toward trying to align the two
and say I want to find things that I
enjoy that are also helpful to others
and I want to find ways of helping
others that I personally enjoy and but I
think whichever place you start that's
the only sustainable place to land that
makes sense so now talk to me about what
what does it take to really become
extraordinary you have a lot of examples
in the book not the least of which is
your own with diving and and how you got
better and better there uh but even
somebody like Steph Curry whose
documentary if I remember right is
called underrated yeah um and he's a
great example in the book what what is
that process well let's start with Steph
Curry because I think there's there's an
incredible scene in the documentary that
that came out after I turned in the book
it's like oh this is this is a this is a
missing scene um I I learned so much
from his trainer Brandon Payne about how
they they structure practice uh to bring
out the best in Steph Curry and keep him
I think he's already the best shooter in
the history of basketball and he wants
to keep getting better so if you look
back at how he did that early on um
there's this scene you you saw the
documentary I haven't you haven't seen
it yet okay so I don't want to do a
spoiler on the whole thing but you kind
of already know where he ends up uh but
there's one scene in particular that I
can knock it out of my head which is uh
Steph Curry's in high school he's short
um he's he's not six feet yet no way
he's going to be tall enough to make the
NBA based on that growth trajectory I
think is probably the Assumption and
he's got a huge problem which is every
time he takes a shot and he's guarded by
somebody who is tall he gets blocked
because he's shooting from his hip and
it's a really slow developing shot um it
comes from low people can see it coming
and then just SWAT it down and sometimes
they don't even have to jump and he
watch this guy is going nowhere so he
talks to his dad um it helps to have a
dad who is an NBA player yeah would you
run into that that wall and his dad says
you've got to rebuild your shot if you
want to get to the next level if you
want to play in college you have to you
have to stop shooting from the hip and
start releasing higher um it's going to
be a faster release it's also going to
be harder to block um that's that's your
path and you watch Steph Curry literally
lose the ability to shoot he has to
start over and go back to the drawing
board and I think a lot of people are
unwilling to do that because he was a
really good shooter shooting from his
hip and the idea of going backward and
saying I've got to give up the gains
I've already made and start over from
scratch that's just too much to lose I
don't want to do it but Steph Curry is
passionately committed to getting better
and he wants to play in college so he
literally goes through months of just
brick after brick after brick so what do
I take from that I take from from that a
couple things one sometimes you have to
reverse to go forward um a step back can
lead to two steps forward if you find a
better method and that's exactly what
he's doing two you have to then be
willing to to embrace the discomfort of
saying this is going to feel like crap
and three you have to be willing to
tolerate imperfection and say I'm going
to make a lot of mistakes I'm going to
get worse on the path to getting better
um and that to me is a bunch of
character skills that we don't teach
enough uh but we ought
to okay but I'm going to guess that
there is a lot more than just a
willingness to go backwards what do we
in terms of um drilling repetition
ability to push through boredom like
where where where what breaks most
people cuz I've said many times boredom
kills more dreams than failure ever will
um from an entrepreneur standpoint yeah
I see that all the time in terms of
people that I work with in terms of
entrepreneurs that come to me seeking
help I'm just like the number of days
that you're going to spend doing things
that you absolutely do not want to do
but they just have to get done in order
to get to the next level it's like you
can avoid it a little bit more maybe if
you're uh you know just working for
somebody else because you can uh what do
they call it quiet quitting you can back
off pick your generation but if you're
going to be the one responsible for
everybody's paycheck all of a sudden you
just have to do it um it's an idea that
you touch on in the book yeah what's
what's the deal okay so long before
burnout what you're talking about is the
problem that psychologists call bore out
which I was delighted to find it's an
actual term literally you're bored out
of your mind and I think that comes from
the way that most people think about
deliberate practice which is I've got to
I've got to just push my th myself
through I've got to I've got to push as
hard as I can through this slog um it's
monotonous it's repetitive but I know I
need to do it um and the problem is like
bore out is sort of the opposite of
burnout in that it's under stimulation
and chronically that actually is a
source of burnout and that's your point
about how boredom kills more dreams than
than failure does because um repeated
experiences of Bor bore out just at some
point you're like I I cannot I can't
find the will to do this I just don't
want to do it anymore I'm
exhausted so um Steph Curry's trainer
Brandon Payne has a really interesting
solution to this uh he he does what I
would call um drawing from whole body of
work in sports psychology deliberate
play as opposed to deliberate practice
and it's the idea that I want to take
the the specific skill I want to build
and I want to I don't want to gamify it
in the sense that we're going toate
create a leaderboard um or a bunch of
bells and whistles to trick you into
liking the thing you hate I actually
want to re-engineer the very process of
skill building so it's fun so for Steph
an example of one of the games Brandon
created is called 21 he's got a minute
and a half to score 21 points from
anywhere on the court and the shots are
deliberately calibrated so that his best
shot of making the 21 is to shoot from
places that he's not that accurate and
also he's got to move really fast and
get out of breath so that he's
simulating what he do in a real game and
guess what that score he has a personal
best which is okay how fast can I do 21
and then instead of having to to compete
against other people he's actually
trying to compete against his best uh
excuse me instead of having to to try to
compete against other people he's
basically trying to raise the bar for
his future self um and defeat his past
self and I think that kind of deliberate
play is a great solution to Bor out
because you're taking the Daily Grind
and you're actually turning it into a
source of daily Joy it is a fun
challenge for Steph Curry to say okay
can I get 21 in a minute today how do
you want people to apply this in their
normal life like does all this stuff
apply to uh a career does this only
apply if you're in sports like how do
you how do you apply this if you're not
the entrepreneur you're in the
accounting department at a big company
well let me let me actually give you my
personal example because after writing
this chapter I was like yeah I should
probably practice what I was teaching
there and see if I can put this into
action
so I was thinking about the most boring
parts of my job and the thing I hate
most as an author is editing just bores
the hell out of me like I already I
figured out the idea the AHA the Insight
is there I've covered the evidence I
found a story to bring it to life and
now I'm just tinkering it's like you
know I'm on the one yard line and I've
already marched all the way down the
field the last yard takes so much effort
to try to refine it and it doesn't feel
to me like I'm learning anything or
contributing anything
but I know it matters for the reader
experience and it's the task that I
procrastinate on most most I will start
the next chapter instead of editing the
last one uh I'll put it away for weeks
because I just don't get energized by it
and then I wrote this chapter about
deliberate play and said I've got to
turn this into deliberate play how do I
do that all right let me um Let Me Take
A I've got specific things I'm trying to
improve in my editing so one thing that
I I've struggled with for a long time is
um is concreteness and imagery um I'm an
abstract thinker I'm very cognitive um I
start with the data and I need to I need
to have lots of vivid stories so that
people can who are much more I guess
more narrative oriented than I am for
for you for example you love stories
right I need to have a story in there
that you can relate to and say ah okay
that makes the evidence stick so I'm
trying to rewrite a paragraph I'm trying
to turn a study into a
story like why don't why don't I try to
write this in the voice of Maya Angelou
and that's my game can I take a
paragraph and rewrite it as Maya Angelou
would write it always Maya Angelou no so
that was the first thought and then I
thought okay I went to poetry because
poets are great at imagery let me also
go to some of my favorite fiction
authors how would John Green write this
story how would JK Rowling do it how
would Maggie Smith do it and that
becomes a little experiment where every
day I've got a different author I'm
working on and I'm trying to write a
little bit in their voice and now we
have Claude and chat GPT and I can
actually compare what I came up with to
what the generative AI tool produced and
learned something in the process editing
is fun now no I I don't want to say it's
fun it's kind of fun and I almost like
it that's really interesting so how did
how did you come up with that game how
do people figure out what their way of
making something play is it's a really
good question so for me it started with
I was actually reading um I was reading
Harlen Cobin uh who's just great at page
Turners and I was like wow okay like how
would how how would har cin do this and
then I realized it wasn't enough of a
stretch for me because Haren builds a
lot of psychology into his books and so
I went to Maya Angelo as a more extreme
option um how would I do that if I if I
were in a different area I think where I
would start is I would say let's look at
well let's let's take a jot what's a
task you hate Tom that you find boring
oh God anything to do Finance okay what
bores you about Finance in particular um
there is something weird about the way
my brain processes numbers I can feel
myself it's like running a marathon in
quicksand and so all of the sudden when
I I go from like what we're doing now I
feel sharp I feel alert I can put ideas
together very quickly uh but once it
gets to math I can do it and I at times
feel like I think about the numbers in a
more useful way than many of my
peers however I do it so
slowly that I'm just like this is really
unbearable it it I cognitively feel
unrecognizable to myself it's very weird
and so that makes it because it's so
inefficient it just makes it a real SLO
and there's no story there's no emotion
to it it's all just like where do we
have to cut where do we add oh God okay
and so what's what's the like what are
you trying to do with numbers that
involves learning or skill building so
uh that involves learning or skill
building that I'm not sure yet I don't
know how to answer that question but but
I will say trying what I'm trying to get
to is okay how do we Capital allocate um
knowing what my goals are where do I
allocate the resources in order to get
to that next level or what story is the
data telling that gets a little more fun
in terms of trying to actually analyze
but as you like really dig in you start
trying to cross check to make sure I'm
not telling a fake story that this is
the real story that the data is telling
um that just gets really tedious okay so
if you put I would start one option
would be to pick something you already
enjoy and try to graft it onto this
process so could you write a comic book
about your Capital allocation it's
really interesting um I don't know I'd
have to think about that the way I have
done it historically is I will reward
myself so like okay this is your
objective you need to get this done by
this time and if you get that done by
that time then I get to move on to the
things that I find fun so uh I will
often do if I have art to review which I
love uh I'll say okay I see that I've
got art to review but I also have
Finance to do I'm going to do the
finance first and if I finish it you
know by whatever time then I can go do
the art stuff um but I've never thought
about how to turn that into a game I I
mean I think it's the timer is
interesting it's an experiment
definitely an experiment to run yeah so
you can do a timer and accelerate the
reward if you finish a little faster
without making mistakes yeah even just
doing something where I'm beating my
personal best so this goes into okay
we're we build video games here to
impact Theory which not many people know
yet so we think a lot about gamification
and you talk in the book about you don't
want shallow play you want deep play is
it deep play is that what you call it uh
Dan coil called it deep fun which I love
I love the term for instead of shall fun
with that in mind so how do you go from
the shallow gamification of just like
get better time get you know experience
points or whatever in a video game to
something that's deep fun cuz this
really applies to me on multiple levels
one it'll help me better orchestrate a
game of things that I find boring but it
will also help me make better video
games maybe we'll find out uh I think
the difference between shallow and deep
fun is about purpose uh it's it's about
saying hey I'm going to find a way to
enjoy the process of um of working
toward a goal that really matters that I
believe in so um how many people are
working on video games right now uh the
team ues but call
it 15 fulltime okay so what I would do
is I would take those 15 people and say
let's start with um let's do a brain
writing exercise where we're gonna um
we're g to each jot down 20 ideas for
how we're going to take the financing
part of building a video game company um
and make it more fun we're going to
collect everybody's ideas uh we're all
going to rate them independently and
then we're going to just pilot the five
best ideas and then you've got a little
bit of deep fun in the the process of
trying to get everybody's independent
creative problem solving skills focused
on this problem and then ideally they've
also come up with some things that would
be fun to try you do a lot of Consulting
in business right uh I do more
Consulting than I intend to but I've
given up on formal Consulting and made
it advising like I'm I'm happy to to
tell you here's what I've seen in the
randomized controlled experiments and
the longitudal studies I'm happy to give
you examples from other organizations
I've worked with um I will not tell you
how to implement it because your company
is best run by you and I can hold up a
mirror and kind of reflect some problems
to you and generate some solutions you
might not have thought of but you need
to have ownership over whether you're
going to take those seriously or not
right I ask because I'm curious who has
gamified the workload the most
interestingly so I don't know if this
counts as gamified but I'm definitely
going to say it's a version of Deep deep
fun and it's probably a variation on
something we were talking about earlier
which is job crafting so have you ever
been to Morning Star the tomato paste
plant in Northern California believe it
or not I've never even heard of them
okay good so one of the most interesting
organizations I've ever visited so I
went there five or six years ago to do a
podcast episode because I I found out
that they make hundreds of millions of
dollars a year uh they've never had a
single boss since the 1980s and I was
just like this is we've heard about hocy
in the tech World they started it much
earlier and they found a way to make it
effective in manufacturing I just I want
to see that I want to understand yeah
and they do a lot of unusual things that
may not be a good fit for anybody's
company but they do have some processes
that I thought were really compelling so
one thing they do is when you join
Morning Star on day one uh they don't
know how to assign you a job because you
don't report to anyone and eventually
they realized what we should do is just
give you the job of your predecessor and
you do that for the first year at the
end of year one then you get to rewrite
your own job description how fun is that
you get to figure out what you enjoy
doing what you think is Meaningful and
that's now your new job but they put
guardrails around it I was going to say
like uh yeah they have a couple of them
one guardrail is you have to write up an
explanation of how what you want to do
is going to better Advance the mission
than the prior version of your job so
you've got to you've got to make a case
that this is going to generate
Collective value number two you then
have to go to the five to 10 people
you're most interdependent with and get
their Buy in and convince them that this
is a better version of your job and if
you do that you have created a more fun
more meaningful version of your job
committee that has to approve it uh it's
it's basically it's a they call it a
colleague letter of understanding and so
there's a a group of your colleagues who
have to give you the thumbs
up wow okay this is super weird and this
really starts to lean into um the future
of
work okay
so without you having to endorse this is
like the thing everybody should do
animent I want to
understand why and how so what made them
embark on that Journey back in the 80s I
think they they realized at some point
that they wanted to build a company on
self-management so they were they were
into the idea that people should have
more autonomy at work than they do uh
and they hated the idea that there would
be like office space style eight bosses
breathing down your neck micromanaging
you and they said what if we treat
people like adults uh what if we not
only recruit but develop on motivation
and encourage people to really think
about how what they care about and enjoy
aligns with what's good for the company
and then they said at some point you
should be an active architect of your
own job um and we're not going to start
over from scratch in most cases we're
going to have you Tinker with your
existing job to try to make it better
but if you want to make a radical change
and you think there's a better way for
you to contribute to the company we want
to know that uh because a lot of people
are you know are sort of selected into a
job that just was not made for them at
all um and I thought that was cool I
don't think that it has to be that
extreme so let let's now pull back and
and bring this into like how does a
slightly more traditional workplace do
this so WL Gore have you spent any time
with them no so they they made gortex
you probably know them for their gloves
and and winter gear uh they have instead
of a a ladder hierarchy they built a lus
system and the simple idea eor is um
normally in companies good ideas die
when one person up the ladder above you
rejects them and they said what if we
did the opposite What If instead of one
no killing an idea we allowed one yes to
give life to an idea so the idea in
alatus is you can go to multiple people
at different levels of the hierarchy and
pit your idea or your project and all
you need is one of them to give it the
green light in order to begin working on
it and that means you could spend 10 or
20% of your time on something that's
very deep fun for you that might
generate value for others I I loved one
example they had where um a guy um
basically said hey like the the the some
of the gortex material that we have that
repels writ on bike cables um I wonder
if that could keep the grd off my guitar
strings and he starts prototyping it he
brings in this guy um John Spencer and
John uh John finds a sponsor for it in
the company he finds one senior
executive who says yep sounds
interesting and three years later they
have one of the most successful guard
guitar strings on the market and I think
it it keeps the strings clean
dramatically longer than the existing
options they like that was somebody's
idea they dreamed up they thought it
would be fun to work on they then
realized this could be really valuable
to the organization and they had to find
one person who could approve the
investment in it and that's all they
needed I don't know why more companies
don't run that experiment can I tell you
yeah tell me uh that sounds like a
suicide run so uh as you were talking
about it I was like okay hold on the
these are companies with just
ridiculously high profit margins that I
don't know how long they've been in
business but if the Tomato company has
been around since the 80s I get it like
there is a point at which it becomes
hyper predictable um but I mean they've
survived recessions because my my
immediate reaction is at least in a
small company where you're fighting for
every dollar there's hypervariability
like we make a lot of our Revenue off of
YouTube and that means I'm in a knife
fight with the algorithm which people
are it's you know share of eyeball time
there's only so many things that people
can watch and YouTube could not care
less whether it's me or somebody else
they just want to keep you on the
platform and they'll care to a certain
extent because we do highbrow content if
you guys will give me that our cpms
speak for themselves we get [ __ ] high
cpms I'm going to be Unapologetic
Unapologetic about it um so and that
they might lean towards us a little bit
but like if we take our eye off the ball
for half a second somebody else is going
to come in in the space they're going to
take some percentage of our share away
they're just new people entering this
space every day and so
the the thought of being able to look
away and expect it to be the same when
we come back just non-existent now I am
a big believer in I I don't scale so me
micromanaging people is even worse than
just like walking
away but it seems that what you need and
the reason that more companies don't do
that is you need to know exactly where
you're trying to get to you need to
communicate how we're going to get there
you need to leave room for better ideas
because I I operate on what R alio calls
the dot collector so you want people to
be able to give feedback to anybody
anytime so if somebody thinks my
strategy is dumb I would want them to
give feedback that the whole company can
see by the way I tell people to give
give me feedback aggressively and in
public and I do that because I want to
set the standard I don't want people
getting weird about somebody saying they
don't like their idea or whatever
um but man like the the
odds I don't want to make a blanket
statement because I will do whatever
works but with my experience the odds of
people pulling in opposite directions
border on 100% And that's a risk I agree
with that I don't see how they keep
laser focus okay so um I think you you
may be right Gore may be able to get
away with that because they have some
very well-defined Market niches and
they're successful and they have slat
capacity um maybe maybe a better example
of how you would take this into a a more
traditional company is um Innovation
tournaments so great example um Dow
Chemical years ago says we're looking
for ideas that will save energy and
reduce waste and we'll let anybody in
the company submit proposals they have
to cost uh no more than 200 Grand us and
they have to be at least have the
potential to pay for themselves within a
year and you have that very focused call
for this is what we want you then have
peers in subject matter experts
evaluating the proposals promising ones
might be a paragraph at first then they
get Advanced around two you write a
couple Pages maybe you get paired up
with somebody who had a similar idea
eventually they bet on the the highest
rated
ideas they do this for a decade they
invest in 575 ideas on average they save
the company $110 million us per year
whoa most of these ideas Tom do not come
from people in creative jobs they you
know somebody's on a factory floor they
saw a process that was broken they had
an idea for how to fix it they didn't
know where to take the idea until the
Innovation tournament was announced what
I really like about the tournament is
you have a a filtering and selection
process to say we're not going to bet on
all the ideas we're going to take the
most promising ones uh that we think are
smart experiments to run and we're going
to you know we're going to expect just
like a venture capitalist does that if
we bet on dozens of ideas that those are
going to produce net value if they were
highly rated inside the company could
you see doing something like that yes
that one is that's I love that that's
Fant
fantastic uh have you paid attention to
what Elon Musk does in Tesla with the
production line tell me more I wish I'd
studied this more closely so I'm going
to give you my memory of this it could
be a little bit off but my understanding
is anybody can stop the production line
at any time and anyone can experiment on
a better way to do something and there
was one story they told I forget what
the guy was like trying to simplify the
way that windshield wipers were cut it
it wasn't that but it's something like
that and so he ends up stopping the line
and uh somebody came over like what the
hell are you doing cuz there was like
this pile of uh rejected blades from his
test or whatever it wasn't blades again
but you get the idea and I the guy was
like oh no Elon wants us to do this like
if we think that we have a way that we
can improve something by whatever metric
then we're able to stop it and
experiment and it probably isn't you can
just stop down the line and take it over
but it's like something that has spare
capacity or whatever like you can go um
work on it and I just thought ooh that
is really smart because you want like
one thing I'm always telling my team
because companies companies go through
phases you start in what I call the
Hustler phase in the Hustler phase
everybody's doing everything um I'm
hyper involved I'm having to create the
momentum I've only got generalists I
don't have anybody specializing in
anything we just have to wear too many
hats uh you can really make a mistake
staying in the Hustler face too long you
want get to Professional Management as
quickly as you can where people begin to
specialize that there's very formal
things that you're trying to do and
accomplish and all that but as I
mentioned earlier I don't scale no no
CEO scales so you very quickly have to
be in a position where in the beginning
it was like yeah just ask me and I'll
give you the answer we're all sitting in
one room yep do that do that do that and
then you get to the point where it's
like I won't answer that question
anymore you have to know how to solve
this problem and if you can't solve this
problem and maybe it won't be as
efficiently as as me because you know my
experience whatever but if you can't
solve that problem I'm going to replace
you with somebody that can and back to
Elon he said you're paid in direct
proportion to the difficulty of the
problem you solve and I think that's
exactly right and so you need people
that can think for themselves which
means that you have to like you cannot
turn people into automata and one of the
mistakes that managers make is they
think their value is in being needed
going back to your thing about being
needed they think their values in being
needed your values not in being needed
your value is in helping those people
shine and if a
manager says to themselves I can't do
anything all I can do is make sure the
right people are on the right task that
I have the right team with the right
motivation and Clarity then interesting
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v.com SL
impact so interesting I I I think you're
you're articulating a few things that um
that I guess my world of organizational
psychology has has tried to codify so um
I think first of all there's a great set
of studies by Toby Wallen colleagues
that looked at what happens when you
brought in advanced manufacturing
technology um to you know much more
traditional
machines and so people are are more or
less learning to work with robots for
the first time and as part of that they
end up getting additional autonomy and
it's a test to try to figure out what
like is this autonomy good do they use
it effectively or not and it turns out
when you give people autonomy um the
machines end up um getting um they have
lower downtime basically because people
have they they've felt like okay it's my
responsibility now to make sure that the
robot can work and so if the machine
goes down I'm going to learn the skills
to fix it and that's good right you want
you want people to be able to take that
initiative the other thing that happens
though is that you have fewer faults in
the first place because once people
started fixing the machines and they
felt like it was something they had
ownership over they learned what was
causing the problems and they were able
to prevent them in the first place and
so I I think you're making a compelling
case that has some good data behind it
suggesting yeah we want to we want to
let people take that initiative I will
say uh Elon Musk would be the first
person to to tell you you should be
hesitant to take management advice from
Elon Musk I think we should all be
cautious about that we don't know how
much of his success is because of his
strategies versus in some cases in spite
of his strategies let's map that out so
I will take the very um I
was I was I'll be I'll dial back the
controversy here I was very uh impressed
with how he moved when he came into X
formerly Twitter uh I think some people
are going to hate that statement where
does Adam Grant fall on that
statement I I I was not excited about a
bunch of the choices he made um they
tell me which ones and why you didn't
like them I mean first of all downsizing
the empirical evidence is it could not
be more negative on a strategy for
organizational change there was one
paper actually published in a top
management Journal calling down in quote
Dumb and Dumber and when academics use
that kind of language the data have to
be pretty pretty airtight um so in those
studies you look at what were what were
they judging it against because yeah
looking at it as an entrepreneur I'm
like you just bought a company that's
rapidly going at of business and if and
look I'm I'm taking him at his word in
terms of how much Capital they were
burning but there is no option other
than to downsize when you're burning the
kind of capital they were burning well
maybe right I think that's the open
question so if you look at the
downsizing research you I think in the
the study I'm thinking of um want to say
or data Guthrie among others they're
you're looking at about 5,000 companies
um you match them with with controls
that have similarly dire Financial
Straits and then you look at what
happens to the companies that downsized
versus the ones that took other steps
like executive pay cuts for example um
and it turns out that the companies that
downsize do consistently worse so what
goes wrong when you downsize number one
you eliminate people whose jobs were
indispensable and you didn't know it
until you lost them and we've seen
versions of that at at X um especially
when the platform became unstable two um
you end up seeing that your most
talented people are the most likely to
leave because they have the most options
elsewhere they see the writing on the
wall like this ship is sinking I don't
want to be on it and three of the
talented people who stay you also run
into the problem of Survivor guilt where
they they start to feel really terrible
that you know equally competent people
have their jobs lost
um they start to focus really narrowly
on what they need to do to keep their
jobs as opposed to broadly on innovating
to improve the company and it seems to
be a net losing proposition I'm not
going to say never downsize but I think
it's it's really rash to come in and
think this is going to be your your
magic bullet to try to fix
Twitter okay so I I that's my first beef
I love it so we won't know whether what
he's doing makes any sense for let's say
another year uh but I'll happily play
back this clip if I end up just being
woefully wrong I'm happy to be wrong too
right because the interesting thing
about my job is I can tell you what
works on average for most of the people
most of the time in a situation like
this and say like downsizing is not a
strategy that I would bet on right but
there may be cases where it's effective
there may be cases where to your point
it's just totally necessary um but I
think there were Alternatives and I
would have loved to see those like run
the ab test let's let's experiment with
some other options before you cut
people's jobs all right so here's why I
was very excited watching him come in
and do his thing um one I want to be
very clear it bums me out when people
lose their job I'm I'm not indifferent
to that it when when you have run
companies for as long as I have when I
say you take it very personally that
people have a job that they can count on
you that their families are able to
count on their job I can't say that Elon
cares maybe he doesn't I'm just saying
I'm about to give you my take on this
and so I want to be very clear that that
is not lost to me and I'm mortified
every time I have to let somebody go
even when it's for cause I hate it but
nonetheless you have a business there
are only two options when you are losing
money option number one make more money
option number two spend less money
that's it there's no magical third
option so making more money is always
the right answer if you can do it the
bad news is it takes a lot of time and
there are huge question marks and so you
might have an idea and you think okay
this is really going to work but if it
doesn't you're in trouble cutting costs
on the other hand has instant impact now
he took the company public or sorry
private so there's one thing I'm about
to say that he didn't have to worry
about but just as a general rule because
we're recording this right after Disney
made their announcements of the massive
budget cuts um and their stock price
soared the reason their stock price
soared is because people that own the
stock understand you can't operate at a
loss like that like you've got to do
something and so if I'm if I have
tracked it closely and and maybe I've
missed some of it with Disney but they
um cut number one was staff and then a
future cut that they plan to do is
basically doing less content and so not
all Cuts have to be at at the employees
expense 100% I'm all for executive
compensation reduction if they're not
delivering results [ __ ] slash and
burn baby myself included first of all
as the owner of my companies I'm paid
last not second to last last
[ __ ] I have not made a single
dime off of impact Theory I have just
shoveled all the profits back into the
company I've shoveled my own money into
the company so my money is very much
where my mouth is now Elon comes in
realizes okay we're in Dire Straits here
he's super controversial by this point
so advertisers are flinging the platform
like crazy because they think he's a
right-wing nut job so he's thinking to
himself if he's smart I'm going to try
to make more money off of my antibot
thing with the subscriptions but I don't
know if people are going to go for that
so I I I'm going to do it but I can't
count on it uh the
mentality as perceived by myself as an
outsider I have no idea I could be
totally wrong but from the outside
looking at the rate of new features that
they added was so ridiculously slow and
when I watch him look admittedly as
somebody who again I've built companies
for people that are hearing my voice for
the first time I built and sold a
billion dooll company I know what it's
like to build
companies that [ __ ] is hard what he does
is crazy he might be a lunatic I might
hate him if I ever met him not not
standing up for who he is as a person
I'm just saying the results he has
gotten from a business perspective are
unparalleled in this generation like
this guy is unreal what he's doing is
just it it's Peerless right now I'm not
saying in history but rare rare rare is
the entrepreneur like Elon Musk so
anyway I see him come in
and he's like I we have a culture
document Adam grah that again maybe you
would love but maybe not I think you
would respond to it whether you think
it's wise of me to do is a totally
different question but it says we are
looking for and I quote hardcore
[ __ ] and that was the bat
signal that he threw into the sky and so
I agree with you that I'm sure a lot of
people fled but he'll attract a
completely different kind of person who
who's like I want to be in an
organization that we're hardcore like
we're going to do something
unprecedented we're going to build the
everything app like we're going to go
ham and because I like that energy so
much and I try to bring that energy to
my company uh now ah you'd have to ask
my staff and I'm not around to find out
if this is really true I don't think I'm
an [ __ ] I'm not everybody's flavor I
liken myself to black licorice if you
like me you like me does anyone like
black licorice I love black licorice
more than you can imagine wow I can't
even imagine this is my bad signal to
all the people that like black licorice
uh so look we are not the right company
for everybody nor is I'm sure X or any
other company that Elon must touch us
but seeing somebody come in and say I
want hardcore people uh I don't come
back if you're not willing to work long
hard and smart that energy to me is
intoxicating it's exciting and because I
love it I want it to work if it doesn't
I'll acknowledge it I will accept it I
only care about what actually works but
that was incredibly exciting now again
if they can be believed they will be
hitting profitability in the not tood
distant future which when he took it
over they were losing like $40 million a
month or something just insane so I
don't disagree with most of what you
said I think where where I struggle a
little bit is I think Elon had a
competitive advantage in electric cars
and in rockets that he does not have in
social media which is if you want to be
an aerospace engineer SpaceX is the job
of choice um they're far ahead of their
competition um if you want to work on
electric cars Tesla is still this it's
the place to
be nobody's looking around no software
engineer is like my dream company is
Twitter like I think that company is
going to change the world and I like
that is a literal rocket ship and I want
to be part of it and so I think he has
much more competition I think it's way
harder to do that in Social I also think
that the you know the specific Vision he
brought to the table was not compelling
to people in the same way as I want to
create um an escape hatch you know for
like I want to colonize space I want to
get people to Mars like we need a hard
drive backup for Humanity or like I want
to fight climate change and we need a
different source of you know of of power
for cars you weren't rallied by free
speech um
everybody is I get it no because I mean
everybody's seen the the xkcd cartoon
right that says like Freedom it's it's
I'm not going to do it justice here but
let's call it up you let's bring it up
let's do it right now XKCD all
letters here we go this is
it oh God it's too small zoom
in go for it Tom you can do the HS uh
Public Service Announcement this stick
figures so there there's a stick figure
saying Public Service Announcement the
right to free speech means the
government can't arrest you for what you
say it doesn't mean that anyone else has
to listen to your [ __ ] or host you
while you share it the first amendment
doesn't Shield you from criticism or
Consequences if you're yelled at
boycotted have your Show cancelled or
get banned from an internet Community
your free speech rights aren't being
violated it's just that the people
listening think you're an [ __ ] and
they're showing you the door okay so uh
yeah I don't have a beef with that what
I will I will say dear Society is a
public service announcement you'll shoot
your Society in the [ __ ] face with
that attitude but nonetheless it's true
if people want to vote against you they
absolutely should be able to
however in when people on one side of
the political Spectrum are
being not banned but shadowbanned silent
censored at whatever 10x the rate uh
that gets worrisome like I legitim get
worried I I haven't researched the
Twitter files but certainly that is the
the word coming out of the pr machine
now if that's total [ __ ] fine fair
enough but it I will admit that's how it
felt yeah and I I think a lot of people
felt that way and what I want to know is
is that sentiment or is that something
that can be backed up by the data and
one um I will say and I I comment this
you know really wanting to to follow
wherever the data go and I'm I'm 100%
open to being wrong and changing my mind
on this um one I I've read one body of
research on social media suggesting that
okay yes conservatives were canceled at
a slightly higher rate than liberals um
or at least Shadow Bann or whatever
whatever you want to talk about it their
their their post did not take off to the
same degree they also spread
misinformation at higher rates than
liberals did and so like this is
actually interestingly a conservative
critique of liberals that you could flip
and say and by the way I I would not
identify as a liberal like I don't
believe in political parties to begin
with which is a whole another
conversation um I don't think your
belief should ever line up with a group
of people on multiple issues you're not
thinking for yourself facts at that
point um and you're definitely not doing
critical thinking uh if you just you
know parrot the the positions of your
party but anyway uh that's another
conversation I think the you know so
often on um like I I think conservatives
rightly critique um you know data on um
on opport in all kinds of domains by
saying like we don't want equality of
outcomes we want equality of opportunity
and if different groups have different
outcomes we don't know whether that's
because they were not as you know as
good or because they were disadvantaged
um so let's go to the opportunity thing
I would say the same thing here just
because one group um is you know is sort
of uh I don't even want to say banned um
is Deb boosted or de Amplified at a
greater rate than others doesn't mean
they didn't deserve it um and if you're
spreading rampant misinformation or
disinformation um and that can be
independently and responsibly fact
checked um I think Elon said and I this
was one of my favorite things he did
when he bought Twitter he said I want us
to become the most reliable source of
information on Earth well then you have
to have metrics for gauging reliability
um and I think Community notes was an
effort at that I think tweeting
conspiracy theories is not helpful to
that mission in any way shape or form
okay let's talk about Community notes
because we'll that'll be the platform on
which we will agree so I am sure that it
has its flaws and its problems and all
that but I don't see a better way other
than if the wisdom of the crowd is
calling out saying hey this is a problem
and he's talked about how the algorithm
of community notes works it's like
people that typically disagree need to
agree on the note for it to become a
note I was like oo that's Saucy so look
I haven't looked super closely at it but
that feels like the right answer if you
can come up with the right algorithm for
hey people that normally disagree
actually agree on this thing the odds
then of this being believable are pretty
high I'll take for now that it isn't
being hacked right because of course I'm
sure there are ways to gamify that yeah
and what you're talking about is called
a bridging algorithm right which you we
we need more of to identify the
overlapping points of view between
people who normally are on very
different um ends of a spectrum I think
the other thing we need to do though is
we ought to be looking at look at
Wikipedia Wikipedia the Wikipedia that
deleted me yes the Wikipedia imagine I
don't exactly have a lot of faith in
Wikipedia I mean I I don't know what
happened there all I know is empirically
um Wikipedia put encyclopedias out of
business because they created a process
for people to gain credibility it's it's
a little bit like what Ray does at
Bridgewater um we're going to build a
believability score based on your track
record of of being right in the past in
a domain right which is very domain
specific you could do that um we could
have a series of edits that go back and
forth and then there's a group of
independent Arbiters who then try to
take a look at the sources and and
resolve it is remarkable I mean if you
if you pitch Wikipedia today and people
didn't know it existed and you called it
something else people would tell you
you're mad there's no way you could get
the internet to agree on anything my
read of the evidence is on average it's
surprisingly accurate and so there's
something that's working more often than
it's not why aren't we studying that why
aren't we you know incorporating that
potentially into a platform that we
bought would be my question interesting
so what is it what's the difference not
the difference why is community notes
worse than Wikipedia I don't know if it
is I just haven't seen the data because
that to me feels like it's a similarish
approach I don't know how the algorithm
works on Wikipedia so I can't say but
going back to um the well actually can I
throw out one thing that I think would
be relevant here I think that where we
ran into a lot of a lot of trouble over
the past few years is people posting
information that has health or safety
cont consequences um with huge
followings that goes viral before it's
fact checked and so I think that in an
Ideal World um Community notes would
have a filter fact cheing we can we can
have independent fact Checkers we can
have experts with different political
Persuasions um because not all crowds
are equally wise like this is the the
fundamental lesson of wisdom of crowds
research is some Crowds Are Much More
insightful than others and we want to
figure out like we we want to you can do
this for example in forecast um Phil
tlock and his colleagues have some
remarkable data showing that some people
are better at predicting future events
than others and it's domain agnostic in
other words we can ask them what's going
to happen to the price of Bitcoin in six
months we can ask them who's going to
win um the Olympic gold and gymnastics
uh in 20124 we can ask them who's going
to win an election in a given country
and there are certain people who will
outperform um most of the world on each
of those questions because they are
better at overcoming confirmation bias
they're better at recognizing their
assumptions and then press testing those
assumptions and rethinking their
convictions if they get an initial
signal they might be wrong that's a
skill set guess what I want those people
making our forecasts I want those people
weighing in um as part of the crowd
that's going to judge I don't think we
should run Community notes like a
democracy where everyone has an equal
vote I think that some opinions are more
credible than others don't you yeah no I
agree with that wholeheartedly um I just
want to make sure that that's as broad
of a SWAT like for instance if there's
nine people that have that predictive
ability I'm not for it anymore it's just
way too easy for nine people to either
collude get biased whatever have an
angle uh that would be a huge problem
and it's a problem if they have a shared
affiliation so if it's a bunch of
liberals who share that skill well
there's something wrong with the way
that we're measuring predictive accuracy
um and we also need to do a better job
democratizing the knowledge so that
people can improve their skills yeah so
when it's when it is a broads set that
there's some criteria in this case
algorithmically just to keep it simple
that these are people that traditionally
disagree but they agree on this thing
when there's some set of rules like that
I can get behind it when it's a broad
set of people so my my very aggressive
bias is that when something becomes top
down that is when things lead to just
nightmare scenarios and longtime
listeners in my show will be sick of
hearing me say this but for newbies uh I
will say this there is a trifect of
books you need read and at the end of
those I seriously doubt you will ever
want top- down control that is the
untold story The goog archipelago by
Alexander Soulja niten and um the rise
and fall of the Third Reich if you read
those if you want a fourth for spice
read the red famine and all of a sudden
you're going to be like [ __ ] that I do
not want anything top down it can just
when it deranges it deranges so hard
that millions in some cases tens of
millions in other cases over a 100
million people end up dead and that that
that scares me so much and P.S I just
assume I'm one of the bad guys that that
I wouldn't see it that I would break bad
and not realize it scary and so I don't
want the power I don't want other people
to have the power like I want this as
Diversified as possible which brings me
to the other point that I will make and
can I jump in before you shift gear so
as a psychologist what I would add to
that analysis um I think it's it's
terrifying the one of the things that
scares me most about the concentration
of power is that the wrong people are
attracted to it so if you think about um
what psychologists called the dark Triad
of Personality yes
machiavellianism psychopathy and
narcissism uh guess what people who have
those traits are more likely to want
power and in a lot of cases we're more
likely to give it to them because we
mistake their confidence for competence
and then people see them at some point
they're like oh no power corrupted maybe
maybe sometimes maybe for some people
but there's also a case to be made um
empirically that reveals that like these
people are really good at hiding uh
their self-serving agendas until they
have free reign and then at that point
they let all hell break loose and I
think that's the fact that that's a
dynamic in Social systems um is
completely terrifying and I think
underscores your fear of autocracy and
megalomania and anything else that you
want to throw in that bucket so I'm I'm
totally with you there okay what's your
other
point people the reason that I said
the xcd k whatever cartoon uh that
you're going to shoot your Society in
the face is that that the energy behind
that cartoon is one of sides one of like
I I am perfectly happy when I see
somebody who disagrees with me shut down
oh yeah and I don't want that I beg of
everybody listening for for just your
own selfish reasons you have to want the
tension between sides I think the
question people ought to ask
is why are there two sides whether
that's male female whether that's um
liberal conservative and from again me
going back to an evolutionary standpoint
when you think
about any social creature is going to
have to deal with the do you hold
everybody responsible and there's no
sense of collective anything it's just
hey you didn't do your thing I'm going
to let you starve to death I don't care
whatever or are you going to be just all
compassion and empathy all the time
where it's like no matter what you do
I'm going to take care of you and
protect you so if you don't act as a
group you're not going to be able to
cooperate you're um like the the coolest
thing to think of is that if I hunt and
kill something I'm better off letting
you eat some of it than eat all of it
myself because I can literally store
calories on your body because now you'll
reciprocate right it is when I heard it
said like that I was like oh my God
that's so brilliant cuz I can only store
so much on my own body in one meal
otherwise I'm just going to excrete it
out but if I let you eat some now I've
effectively stored calories on your body
and it's going to come to me the next
time when I miss the hunt so okay you
want to you want to have some amount of
like we're looking out for each other
this is a collective thing but then you
get the free riter problem where other
people then just become parasitic on the
organism and just like I'm not going to
do anything because you're going to take
care of me so you need Dynamic tension
so for any body out there that has a
husband or a wife or boyfriend
girlfriend whatever and sometimes you
they're driving you mad I will remind
you you need the dynamic tension you
don't want to you want to share values
but you don't want to see the world the
same way you want to have this Dynamic
tension between I mean especially if
you're raising kids I don't have kids
full disclosure but like when you're
raising kids there's a reason that um
old school like back in the day 100,000
years ago uh that we don't know that
five ,000 years ago hunter gatherer
societies you would go and uh on the day
of adulthood for a young boy he would
traditionally be with his mother and the
men would go ceremonially pull him away
from the mother to demarcate that role
your time with the the feminine the soft
the gentle the nurturing that shit's
over and now you're going to go do
something hard we're going to take you
out we're going to make you hunt a Lon
or whatever their you know societal
thing was and you want both of those
energies present in that child you don't
want them to never have encountered that
love and that nurturing you know
especially when they're young and so
wanting the tension between the left and
the right between the liberal and the
conservative you have to want the
tension yeah and my problem is people
don't want the tension anymore they
think their side is Right whichever side
both sides are as ridiculous on this as
the other but when you want attention
and I obviously encounter this in my
marriage and I encounter this in
business where you if you've read the
book rocket fuel you have the Visionary
and you have the executor you need both
but they often both think the others a
[ __ ] and you have to understand that
you both bring value it's the dynamic
tension it's like a kite and a string if
you just have a string it lays on the
ground if you just have a kite just
crashes into a tree and you have nothing
but when you have them in Dynamic
tension you can keep the kite a loft so
much okay so much to to build on here so
first of all um your your case that
actually like caring for other people in
your group is evolutionarily adap
um Darwin first wrote about it Darwin
like we think of Darwin as the survival
of the fittest oh we're we're
evolutionarily selected to be selfish
Darwin wrote that a tribe of altruist
would Outlast a tribe of selfish people
because the group that puts the tribe
first would ultimately be victorious um
David Sloan Wilson has formalized this
into a theory of group selection which
is um very parallel to to your argument
uh which I think is fascinating
um the dynamic tension point I think is
so important um I I actually wrote a lot
about this and think again the my prior
book and I I'm so stunned that people
want to surround themselves with people
who agree with their conclusions instead
of the ones who challenge their thought
process like I don't want you to be
like-minded great minds don't think
alike they challenge each other to think
differently you can be like-hearted
which is we have similar values that's
your point um but we want to have really
different views um and that Divergence
of views with similarity of values is is
where we do our best learning um we
don't just affirm our beliefs we
actually end up evolving our beliefs
based on that which last time I checked
is the only way you grow cognitively I
think the other the other thing that's
really interesting here so I want to
push back a little bit on the Free
Speech point I I I think we're we're in
actually in agreement on the principles
there's uh there's some evidence that
really got me thinking differently about
this a couple years ago uh Peterson um
the lead author I think is Michael bang
Peterson published eight studies showing
his middle name is bang I believe it is
it might be bang I think he's
that would be the greatest middle name
of all time uh I I cannot confirm or
deny the pronunciation but uh he
published eight studies uh thousands of
people looking at the question of is
social media fundamentally worse than
in-person
interaction just because people are
Anonymous or because they don't see a
human face and there's all this
evolutionary hand waving about how you
know we we were adapted to sit here like
this and talk to each other and we can
respect each other and like each other
but now we're behind a screen and maybe
behind a screen name and now Ow like I'm
you know I no longer see you as a full
human well what the data showed is we
should not let that drive all of our
thinking because it turns out that the
people who are [ __ ] online are also
[ __ ] offline that's not too shocking
to be fair it's not surprising right
when you think about it um they tend to
be nastier um in real life too the
difference is in real life that behavior
is disincentivized you get excluded from
your group somebody takes you aside and
says that's not respectful
um and you learn to evolve it and social
media I think does the opposite which is
our our algorithms amplify outrage and
so trolls learn that they can use
aggression to get attention and then all
of a sudden this Behavior seems to be
more common and we think people are
worse than they are and that like I
thought that was the first problem that
Elon was going to solve to take us for
full circle on the Elon conversation my
dream for Twitter was we are going to
stop amplifying trolls who are just
using aggression to get attention and
we're going to start amplifying people
who disagree thought thoughtfully who
complexify conversations who take what
was you know a simple belief in one
person's head and actually turn it
upside down and say there's another view
to this and now you don't just change
your mind you actually elaborate your
thinking and you have a more
sophisticated understanding than you did
before that to me was the future of we
want to have a public a Public Square
that makes people smarter as opposed to
more tribal and more polarized and to me
a huge disappointment is there's been no
effort to build that I don't think he
ever will and and I don't think anyone
will and the reason I don't think that
is I don't think that's what people want
so Elon is very careful to say uh we
want to entertain and educate or inform
uh and I think that that is probably
necessary like you and I were talking
before we started rolling I to pull my
channel back from becoming Doom and
Gloom and the reason is I have
legitimate anxiety about the future um
when I look at things like AI which I
really hope we get a chance to talk
about today uh and I think that it's
probably going to be good but I think
that there is a risk that either it guts
people's sense of meaning or it actually
destroys us and anytime I would express
my anxiety the episode would blow up and
so I'm like huh that's you really have
to fight against that now because of
what I want to bring to the world I'm
already wealthy it became
very simple for me to say okay I'm I'm
never going to artificially lean into
this when it's real I will talk about it
but I could easily take something and
spin it more negative and it would do
better um so when I think about what
people want I was literally just
thinking about this today I don't know
what had this on my mind but think about
like the old newspaper boys that had to
like yell and Shout um to to get people
to buy the newspaper you're in a way
better position if the Titanic just sank
than you are if the Titanic made it in
record time right so there we are I'm
pretty sure he talked about this in the
book we are more likely to lean towards
negative stuff so it's like okay we're
more likely to lean towards negative
stuff negative stuff is also just it
tends to be higher drama more
captivating and even I I hate that this
is true man but even I if I see two
people arguing I'm more likely to stop
then if they're like oh I love you so
much okay so I I think there's a false
dichotomy there so first of all I I I
think you're right that I I wouldn't say
it is what people want I'd say it's what
people tend to so our our attention is
geared toward um what Rosen and royman
called negativity bias or B meister and
colleagues called bad is stronger than
good um and The evolutionary argument is
really simple like if you if you didn't
pay attention to the good thing you
could still survive um if you ignored
the bad thing then you're not going to
pass along your jeans um because you got
eaten by a tiger or whatever it was
possible early on um so it makes sense
that we're to be hypervigilant to
threats um and we have an amydala that
that seems to function to do this very
primitive threat detection fight or
flight kind of stuff um that doesn't
mean though that we can't activate that
in a way that makes people smarter and
more thoughtful so if you respond to the
people who are having an argument we
can't say let's turn turn that into like
a world-class debate um that that's like
the cognitive version of a WrestleMania
um match um maybe that's not the the
right the right metaphor Prett good I
like that um it's fun right you know
they're actors but they still look like
they're they're really beating each
other up and they're working at it if
they weren't even actors they were just
legitimately going they debating with
respect but like Lincoln Douglas style
Lincoln Douglas is a great example of a
you know an amazing debate um what we're
looking for is basically the
intellectual version of why we watch
sports which is I I will I will turn on
any game that has step against on um I I
will watch because you know these are
two people who are at the very top of
their field um who are genuinely trying
to to both put forth their best effort
and there's no reason I mean this is
part of why podcasting and YouTube have
taken off is people there's a hunger
there's a demand for these conversations
right and so why not build an algorithm
that penalizes people for being uncivil
but rewards them for being
constructively critical and for
challenging people to think differently
um you could try instead of a like
button a
huh I never thought of it that way
that's actually interesting maybe right
this I don't know if this is going to
work but this the experiment gets people
to engaged because that ultimately
that's the test you know look In
fairness um they they do have to make
money because people want to get paid
for their work let's keep that in mind
um okay I think I have the Silver Bullet
as to why that's wrong tell
me movies no matter how uplifting the
ending and I went to film school they
used to beat this into US they've got to
be just high seas drama the most
dramatic high stakes high wire act now
it doesn't mean that you want it to end
badly you don't you actually want it to
end well especially if you identify with
the lead but it needs to be
dramatic that is the thing that makes us
attend to it so I I'm not defending the
trolls that's probably just the easiest
way and I'm not a troll anybody can look
at my feet yeah that's the lwh hanging
fruit it's the lwh hanging fruit version
of getting to I want you to attend to
this thing it's people slinging mud
although In fairness like if people
are if people are dicks as I perceive it
I won't follow them but I'm sure there
are people who think elon's a dick and I
follow him so well I think you've made a
calculus that you think his net
contribution to the world is positive
and you're willing to tolerate some of
the things you don't like I'll give you
I'll give you an even better one Jordan
Peterson very controversial figure has
added so much value to my life but I
really think he's bad on
Twitter Jordan I love you I want to get
you back on the show and I really mean
that like as a contributor to humanity
I've had him on the show a couple times
dude is amazing I legitimately have love
for what he's done I don't know him well
enough to actually love him but like for
real for real like this guy's add of
value to my life and I think to the
world but the way he is on Twitter uh is
not ideal from my perspective and so
that's one of those
where I wouldn't be traumatized
if there was a huh I never thought of
that button and nobody was clicking it
because he's just coming at it from such
an angry place but I certainly wouldn't
want his account to be silenced or shut
down I'll give you another example of
somebody who I think is amazing but I'm
sure there are people that just want him
to shut up Eric Weinstein who is from a
sense making apparatus I think he's
another one Sam Harris Sam Harris has
become so controversial but man do I
think that guy thinks clearly and look
there are things I disagree with him
violently but I'm glad nobody's telling
him to shut up telling him to shut up
all the time but this is this is exactly
where where I've landed so I think Sam
is a really interesting example A lot of
people have objected because they
disagree with his conclusions and first
it was the the left because they thought
he was islamophobic and now it's the
right because they think he's um you
know drinking vaccine Kool-Aid right and
in both cases like I I want to listen to
the quality of somebody's thought
process and say before I know what their
conclusion is is this somebody who who
challenges me to think deeper and
broader um and and Sam has that impact
on me so I respect him as a thinker I
often disagree with his conclusions and
that's not the point right the point is
that he makes me think um I think that
you could probably try a version of this
so I I see your film example and I raise
you
school people like to learn you could
try a this person's thinking teaches me
um I feel smarter after a list listening
to this person um this person opened my
mind right like that you could get
people fired up about that and you're
right we'd have to raise the stakes we
need really high importance issues uh
that people have serious emotions
invested in we need people who genuinely
disagree for good faith reasons um who
could look at the same evidence and
actually agree on the standards um and
then maybe you know one of them admits
they're wrong or they both realize they
were wrong and they had incomplete
information I I I don't think this is
easy to do I think it's it could be
built and tested and I don't know if I'm
running a social media company it is the
first experiment I'm
running cuz it's a huge differentiator
if it works yeah what would really be
interesting is if I have the option to
click oh I never thought of that I mean
I suppose this is a subscribe button but
uh that I can tailor the kinds of things
that I respond to so uh that and I mean
In fairness if you subscribe to the
right people and interact with the right
people over time the algorithm does
really begin to feed you this because I
actually don't see many trolls except in
my own comments uh for the most part
it's I'm going to see people that on my
for you page anyway that are positive
that are thoughtful just because of what
I interact with but um I'll I'll give
you school and I'll Raise You video
games so we can agree on that I when I
look out at the world so impact theory
is called impact Theory uh for one very
simple reason it actually isn't for the
YouTube content it's my theory is if you
want to get a growth mindset which we've
talked about the limitations of but if
you want to get a growth mindset out to
people at scale I think you have to do
it through entertainment and so the
YouTube show I say only addresses 2% of
people and so the 2% the self- select
that go on YouTube and want to learn are
very different than the 98% of people
that I think one you have to reach them
when they're young which I think is
critically important and then two you
have to do it through entertainment you
have to create something they think is
cool that their friends think is cool
and that they would do you know
regardless like it's just intrinsically
enjoyable um and meet them there so if
if there were only one door that kids
could walk through door one is education
and door two is video games choing video
games more people not everybody
thankfully um but more people will just
because it's so aligned with the wiring
of our brain and dopamine secretion and
all of that but also really useful in a
bunch of ways I I I was stunned um to
look up a bunch of meta analyses studies
of studies showing that on average video
games actually build grid and willpower
which I mean as a kid who grew up
playing video games that was where I
learned resilience it was where I
learned to I loved your Mario Kart
example by the way thank you that was I
mean it's it's really it's it's exactly
what I want to teach kids you fail you
get sent back to the beginning you have
to try again and level up your skills
and then there's uh reward for it and
also the process is fun it's it's
deliberate play um in a nutshell which
is what you're arguing for so you you
want to talk about AI I'm curious about
where you want to go on AI the future of
work so uh I there's a lot of anxiety
right now around AI I've done a fair
amount of content around it and the
response that people give is like okay
wait how do I thrive in this
world and because we do video games we
interface with art a lot artists have
really reacted violently against Ai and
for my second or third Public Service
Announcement I will say um artist I
really beg of you when I first
saw um Toy Story I was in film school
and when I say saw when it came out I
refused to go watch it because I was
like this will be the death of
traditional cell animation and I was
Crest Fallen was a it was a skill that I
really wished I had a talent for
something I really loved and the thought
of like people aren't going to draw
anymore it's all going to be on a
computer I really had a negative
reaction and I probably didn't see Toy
Story for five years after it came out
and then I finally saw it and I was like
oh wow but it made me feel something and
so now obviously artists grow up with
Photoshop and all the tools that the
artists don't mind but they don't
realize that that's already like wiped
out a whole bunch of people that spent a
lot of time learning how to do with a
pencil and if artists understand that at
least from where I'm sitting the play is
and and I'll say this to anybody the
play is to figure out how AI can be a
tool that you use to not be less
creative you're going to be more
creative because now you're not limited
by the execution side of this you're
only limited by your imagination by what
you can think of and how you can execute
against that and I get it it's tough if
you spent a long time training yourself
to write like my Angelou and now you can
just go to chat GPT and it can write
like my Angelou boom licky split um
there is something unnerving about that
but the way that it lets all of us
amplify our
skills is
incredible MH so I I have heard you
previously say look I can't predict the
future and so I'm really not going to
take a super hard stance but I'd love to
hear like how you want people to at
least it is happening you don't have to
predict anything more than today to say
this is emotionally how you should frame
it yeah okay so a couple disclaimers
first of all I'm an organizational
psychologist I'm not a computer
programmer um I'm not a tech founder so
my perspective is informed by reading
the evidence um having studied work for
two decades and by having talked with
the founders of a bunch of the big um AI
companies if anybody tells you they know
where this is going they're lying um
it's Chang ing so fast under their feet
that they're just kind of trying to keep
up with the machine at this point um in
a lot of cases I think there a few
things we can say are true right now the
first one is um Ethan mik has summarized
this point really beautifully um he's
probably my favorite thinker on AI he
has a book coming out in the spring
called co-intelligence uh and he's the
best synthesizer of the trends that I've
seen um what Ethan has highlighted in is
in a whole bunch of experiments AI is
basically a skill leveler so if you are
a poor performing software engineer or
salesperson or knowledge worker of a
whole bunch of Kinds if you do a lot of
writing it will help you close the gap
between you and your star performing
peers and in very few of the studies
does star performers get much um out of
it and they tend to get a lot less uh
than people who are basically catching
up so that's great news if you're trying
to get better um it may not help you as
much if you're already really good at
your job I think the second thing we
know is uh there reason to be concerned
because um I think you you've accurately
sort of captured the history of
technology which is most new
technologies displace jobs they don't
eliminate jobs um we see certain kinds
of jobs go away other jobs come in to
take their place what's different about
AI is machines have never learned before
and the idea that you know that a
machine can actually keep getting
smarter um is a threat to jobs that
people just can't predict because it's a
different it's it's why it's called
exponential technology right um and so
if there is an acceleration toward
General artificial intelligence I think
that's where people just say we've never
seen anything like this we don't know
what it will mean open question third
you you asked about purpose and meaning
and I I think here there's at least some
short to medium-term Good News which is
I just read a study of what happens when
people get AI tools and robots in their
jobs so who didn't have have them before
and the one of the key findings was this
is over a multi-year process uh people
figure out what the robots are bad at
and then they make outsmarting the robot
part of their job goal and becomes a
source of meaning and purpose for them
because they've discovered what is
uniquely human at least now the problem
is we don't know what that's going to
look like in two years 5 years in three
months probably um it's sort of a giant
question mark and so I don't know how
we're going to think about that I think
you know my hope would be that if we get
to a point where you know computers can
actually take over um a lot of jobs that
don't get replaced then we're going to
find some version of a universal basic
income that allows people to you know to
support their their life and their
lifestyle um and that frees people up to
do more play more social connection um
and Find meaning in other in other
sources um but I don't think we have a a
good model for what a society looks like
that yet that looks like that and so I
don't really know where to take it we
actually have more of a model than I
think people realize I was recently in
Kuwait yeah so in Kuwait everyone gets
Ubi so they're kicking off so much money
from oil that everybody gets uh stiped
it's pretty
hefty I it's ballpark like $2,500 right
so it's not it's enough that your basic
needs are met but it's not enough that
if you want for the Finer Things that
you would have them and it plays out at
least according to the people that I
spoke to uh it plays out the way you
would think it would so people that
aren't ambitious now don't need to be
ambitious and they do nothing and they
collect their check and that's fine and
so some strata of society just stays at
like the that they're not reaching for
more uh the people that are ambitious
and really want to do something
extraordinary with their lives they're
going to reach Way Beyond that but
they're like well at least I have that
so do I think that I mean look some of
them were complaining saying yeah that's
a problem like people don't because
there is that net there more people than
would otherwise do nothing um but I
don't think I mean being in Kuwait it
was lovely it was beautiful people were
lovely the people I was talking to
anyway were very ambitious um so it's
not going to Creator Society by any
stretch of the imagination it really
comes down to how much we get now if
this world of abundance comes in and we
really don't want for anything then I
worry we have a rich kid problem where
you just have never had to work hard for
anything and going back to my earlier
thesis if I'm right that working hard is
just a critical part of this so few
people will need to work hard but there
will be a profound sense of disease and
they won't understand why and this is
something I find really interesting so I
think right now what we're struggling
from in the US is that things have been
so good for so long for so many people
not everybody I'm very aware of that
trust me as somebody who's worked in the
inner cities I've seen this [ __ ] up
close but even people in the grips of
poverty in America have refrigerators
have used
a home right so it's like whatever if
96% of people have a home that's a lot
that's the vast majority
so it's been so good for so long for so
many people that we have fallen prey to
the fourth turning
of Hard Times make strong men strong men
make good times good times make weak men
and on and on the death Loop goes um so
I do worry about that if it is really
just an age of abundance that you get
the kids that are doing coke at you know
16 and they just derail yeah I worry
about that too I think I mean the I
guess the good news on this is Humanity
has a really poor track record when it
comes to appreciating how good things
are yeah uh so do you see a way out of
it I don't know I'm sure we'll find ways
to screw up any version of abundance uh
that comes but then if you're if you're
sort of self-correcting cycle is right
then that will in turn create a
generation of motivated people
um I think
the the the experimental evidence I've
seen on universal basic income is really
encouraging in the sense that most
people are not demotivated um most
people want either because they're you
know aspiring for more career-wise or
because they see their work as a calling
or because they're bored there are lots
of reasons um you know end up continuing
to engage I think where um where this
gets to me really interesting is I
wonder
actually I don't know I don't know what
to make of this but curious to get your
reaction it seems to be the case that
when um when you look far enough back in
human history there was a did you ever
read James susman's book work no he's an
anthropologist um who who has gone very
far back into human history and argued
that basically for 300,000 years we did
a 15-hour work week so this image of
hunter gatherer life as you know just
nasty brutish and short like there were
elements of it that were extremely nasty
you do not want to live without modern
medicine for example um if you can avoid
it but um they LED mostly lives of
leisure and they there was like okay
we're going to hunt we're going to
gather we're going to cook we're going
to cover our necessities and the rest of
the time you built Community you did Art
um there was a lot of creativity and
connection and so I actually wonder if
there's not a blueprint for where this
would go if it went there from I guess a
world a different kind of abundance um
an abundance of time that we had for a
lot of our ancestral past what do you
make of that uh I I think in movies and
video games so I will say Minecraft
gives you all the answers you seek uh in
the beginning it is deadly and the mere
existence of nighttime meant that your
risk of death skyrocketed yeah and so
there then you uh start as building
safety
and then you start figuring out the
movement patterns of the elk or the
Buffalo or whatever and then you've got
a reasonable life of you move with the
herds or you sit down and you plant uh
and you harvest or you heard and but
life back in the day to your point one
without medicine you're just already in
a danger zone and then two we have
played a really dangerous game with
Evolution from a hip to head ratio for
women and so childbirth is about the
most dangerous thing that a human being
could do from an evolutionary standpoint
but you got to do it so now you've got
something where you have high infant
mortality rates uh mothers dying at I
mean some it it's ridiculously high
forget the percentage of death but it
was high and so that already just is one
of the reasons I think that humans had
to have this drive for improvement
because it was just like dude if you
didn't want to make things better then
every night people were getting eaten by
lions but because you're trying to
improve you're like hey wait a second
when we have a fire I think the Lions
actually stay a little bit back hey this
dog or wolf that's coming up and asking
for scraps they'll actually bark to
alert me when something comes near huh
this is all very interesting and so you
start putting these pieces together and
you start building I mean this is
anybody kids that grw up with Minecraft
take it for granted because I found it
at 47 I'm like holy hell this game is
unbelievable it is brilliant a small set
of rules creates this unbelievably
unbelievably complex Behavior sets I
played it in isolation I had no idea
what it was I almost threw my controller
through the TV screen I was like they
expect kids to get good at this what
like this is so hard and then you
realize oh the zombies only come out at
night I didn't notice that okay days are
10 minutes long nights or 10 minutes
long oh [ __ ] I need to build shelter
then and all you start piecing this
together that is humanity and so we are
on this this March towards Improvement
but we're all living in the weird ass
moment where
computers potentially become sentient
and we now have some
real potentially competition and so now
it's like all the things that got us
here aren't going to get us to the next
level and so it'll be very interesting
to see what plays out it will be
interesting I it's funny I think I
learned some of the same lessons from
playing Zelda um not not identical but
it overlaps a little bit with Minecraft
on on some of the themes you're talking
about I think yeah I I I think this is
one of the reasons that we we've talked
for Generations now about how cognitive
skills are what separate us from animals
as humans I think moving forward it's
probably character skills not cognitive
skills that are going to elevate us
above machines so here's what a machine
can't do um a machine can't decide what
values are worth prioritizing um a large
language model can basically take a
bunch of people's claims about what's
important to them and try to adjudicate
or rank them U but it can't decide for
you uh what principles should matter to
you and it definitely can't tell you how
to put those principles into practice
and live them and I wonder if that's
going to be the dividend uh where you
know if we're trying to think about what
advice do we give people who are
concerned about the future of work I
would say double down on character
skills um it's going to be much easier
for a machine to cover your coding and
your language skills um than it is for a
machine to teach you to be proactive um
to be pro-social um to be determined to
be disciplined uh I think those are
those are skills that are going to be
really hard to Cod and they're going to
help you unearth your hidden potential
Adam thank you for joining me today
where can people find you uh wherever
they're on the internet there it is at
Adam Grand everybody amazing list of
books you will love them all all
speaking of things you will love if you
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until next time my friends be legendary
take care peace check out my intense
conversation with Patrick Bet David
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own life and many men today simply do
not qualify many of you have been told
the pursuit of power is disgusting you
shouldn't do it many of you don't even
have