Kind: captions
Language: en
if you want to do well with women you
are going to have to understand it as an
art you don't need to be fake but you do
need to be strategic every move or non-m
move that you make makes you more or
less desirable and if you're naive to
that you're not going to get anywhere if
on the other hand you come to understand
women generally and how to be both
Artful and genuine in seduction you've
got a shot to help in this effort I'm
joined by best-selling author Robert
Green what should men learn learn from
the fact that women fantasize about
vampires and billionaires seduction
involves the desire to lose control and
Men share this as well which is why men
are often attracted to women who are
slightly dangerous women who are either
a little bit crazy or women who have
this incredible Sexual Energy that can
almost dominate a man so seduction
involves Crossing up closely to that
border of something that's dangerous
where you might be overwhelmed
particularly in the day in in our world
today where things are getting more and
more Puritan and people are more
constrained by political correctness and
all these tenance that we're supposed to
adhere to that we lead rather dull
constricted lives we're not playful
enough we don't things are too ordered
and conventional and regimented in our
world but secretly we want to get out of
that secretly we are drawn to what is
dangerous to what we can't really
control seduction is a sense of I'm
letting go a little bit I'm entering a
world where the other person is leading
me through an adventure and that's the
excitement that's the kind of
transgressive element a dangerous person
is always going to have that a vampire I
can understand billionaire is a
different thing I mean billionaire has
to do with security and comfort and
money and the sense of a man who's made
it you know he must have some quality
that's that got him into that position
kind of thing the fantasy of you can
have any kind of object that you desire
like in a fairy tale because this man
has billions of dollars so he can afford
whatever you want I prefer when I'm
thinking about seduction to deal with
kind of real life situation scenarios I
understand romantic fiction but romantic
fiction isn't isn't what aren't
characters in real life that we're going
to be encountering so it's a little bit
distanced from me it's interesting the
way I look at that and the reason I
found the book a billion Wicked thoughts
so intriguing is I think it is
absolutely revelatory what men and women
spend their time fantasizing about it
certainly gives you a sense of the
underlying algorithm that's running in
all of our brains you know the fact that
male pornography and male pornographic
searches are all around like body parts
and um things like it's basically just
body parts that that really there's not
even an and there it's just that's what
male searches are all about they're
describing the thing they want to see so
it's all like hyper visual whereas the
fact that women um are into a totally
different kind of uh erotic stimulation
to me that was that alone was already
revelatory that they like story based
they want to read that their porn is
read Because what I'm hoping guys will
get out of this episode is an
understanding that there is an art to
seduction you're not being fake by
acknowledging that and the reason I
wanted to start with where people
fantasies lie is because if you
understand that you understand the
algorithm that you're trying to trip
into now of course you're going to do it
in a way that's far more real and
grounded I'm not saying to act like a
vampire but uh to to just address your
work as it relates to both the vampire
and the billionaire at least as I read
it is um you talk a lot about there
there is a type and I forget what which
name it is for the type of Seduction um
archetype but where they're playing with
androgen
and dandy The Dandy okay so the Dandy
Blends the two so there's a familiarity
for the woman of a vamp I think of
vampires as being somewhat androgynous
they're usually Ultra refined there's an
aristocratic air to them and so you have
this the The Dandy portrayal in that
mixing the androgyny but then you need
the like you talk a lot about Errol
Flynn who had flashes of danger and so
to me that's the vampire the vampire is
obviously in the extreme obvious viously
in the abstract it's fiction but it
really does hint at something real and
so getting people to understand this is
the algorithm that's running in a
woman's brain that it is very different
than the algorithm that's running in the
male brain and so your job is going to
be if you if you're going to seduce
somebody again this is me quoting you
you have to be them focused and not you
focused yeah um but then you know it's
what's a little bit tricky here is you
have to think that each woman has their
own separate fantasy so first of all
it's a particular type of woman that's
reading romantic fiction not all women
are reading that kind of thing but each
person that you deal with has their own
particular fantasies right and you want
to be very sensitive to that so if you
come at this with this idea that women
have these preset kind of um ideals then
you're already in trouble because you
want as far as being you oriented you
want to drop everything and you want to
enter their world and look at the signs
that they that they're giving out as to
what their fantasies are if they happen
to be reading that kind of fiction and
they happen to be reading those kinds of
stories then great a little red light
goes on in your head but you want to be
looking at all the other signs that
they're giving out as well you know the
movies that they watch the music that
they listen to the clothes that they
wear you know if a woman seems to be
particularly
repressed that's a sign that they're
going to be attracted to that danger
element right so you want to be pay
paying deep attention to the individual
this is a problem that men have in
general that they need to address
they're thinking in generic terms
they're thinking that they don't
individualize the woman and the worst
thing you can do in seduction is to give
the other person the idea that you are
coming at them and thinking of of
somebody else you're thinking in terms
of stereotypes you're thinking in terms
of your previous girlfriends you're not
looking at them as an individual the
kinds of things that they love the kinds
of things that they that you can Prov
them that they're missing in life so the
game is most the most important game as
opposed to just thinking in terms of of
these categories is dropping all of that
stuff in your head and just looking at
the woman and entering her world and
seeing it for what it is that's half the
game of Seduction because if they feel
that you are individualizing your
attention that is absolutely the key to
any kind of Seduction because we don't
get any kind of individualized attention
in this world we're hungry for it and
particularly women coming from men
because men don't seem to understand the
fantasy element as you say a fantasy is
kind of a story it's like a drama it's
going and and so when you're seducing
someone it's a story that you're
bringing them into you're creating
theater you're creating drama you're
leading them into this world just like
an author will lead a Reader through a
series of steps right but you have to be
very focused on them and who they are in
particular and sedu ction involves a
sense of
vulnerability right a sense of openness
where you're letting the other person
come into you and the word vulnerable
comes from the Latin meaning wound so
vulnerable means the willingness to be
wounded right and the archetypal um
image of love and seduction was Cupid
with an arrow and hitting you with an
arrow and wounding you with love and
creating blood from it it's like there's
pain involved because you're opening
yourself to another person you're
willing for them to hurt you and you
know that you could be hurt and so the
origin of Seduction actually comes from
our relationship to our parents and
often times for a man or a woman Yung
talked about this in terms of an animus
and an anima and speaking as a man you
know anima figures are those kind of
women that inhabit your dreams and I
have dreams all the time of that kind of
anim woman it's usually usually a
certain type A Certain look certain kind
of feel to it okay and that anima figure
for the man comes mostly from these
earliest relationships in childhood like
the mother figure generally could be a
sibling and when you're a boy and you're
facing your mother you're completely
vulnerable you're weak you're dependent
and that sense of being dependent is a
source of a lot of your erotic tension
but also a lot of your fears because men
are afraid afraid of Letting Go afraid
of being dependent afraid of being
overwhelmed right so you carry within
you these images of the anima and the
animos You're vulnerable in those
moments right but what you happen what
happens to you as you get older is you
try and make yourself
invulnerable because life is hard it's
harsh people are coming at you with a
million different things you Retreat
into yourself into your ego into your
little castle you build walls around
yourself and you you're afraid of
letting someone in you're afraid of let
letting go you're afraid of losing your
defenses and in the 2023 it's worse than
ever before because the world is very
very
intrusive people secretly want to be
vulnerable I just wrote a chapter about
this in my Sublime book in in relation
to the idea of love people want to feel
vulnerable they're just afraid and so
it's I think very psychologically
important for people today particular
Ally for young people to be willing to
be vulnerable and to experience what
that's like to experience letting go of
your defenses if you're hurt how do you
deal with that because never you're
going to be hurt that builds life skills
that builds toughness that builds kind
of thickness in your in you where you
can endure being hurt because life
involves in all sorts of hurts and
you're able to function with it and and
and actually invite it in it's almost
good sometimes to invite a little bit of
pain in your life life when you want to
get physically well and you want to
exercise you you realize that getting
well involves pain involves repetitions
it involves running so far that it hurts
a little bit right so you have you want
to be able to welcome a little bit of
that pain so I think where we are in our
culture right now seduction is
incredibly important and I must say that
on all of my social media when I do a um
a little video about seduction I get the
most views of all and the irony is that
more than ever that word seduction has
like an element of ew I don't like that
I don't want to be seduced oh what an
ugly book oh Robert's really evil but
secretly people are yearning to be
seduced so that's that's my answer to
your question it's a great answer so now
the thing I want to know is all right
vulnerability is about a wound Opening
Our eles up to being wounded in going
through that process we learn a lot
about ourselves and how to be in some
sort of ironic sense uh by being
vulnerable you're able to develop
strength and a willingness to expose
yourself like that why are people so
hungry for it now why as we get more
puritanical as we have to worry about
political correctness why is it that the
desire to let go becomes a thing that
we're crying out for well people are
generally ambivalent I try and make a
case when I talk to people that your
emotions are never singular they're
never one thing we're we're const we
have many moves our emotions are
continually passing like clouds in the
sky they're never set or fixed right so
as Yung points out and a lot of other
psychologists when you have a strong
quality let's say a man who's hyper
masculine who's so tough and rugged you
can bet that underneath it is is an
insecure Purity is a feminine streak
that he is afraid of revealing so when
people reveal a strong quality such as
defensiveness such as resistance such as
puritanical things such as virtue
signaling such as I'm the saint and
everybody else is evil you can bet that
lurking underneath is a deep deep
insecurity of I'm actually the opposite
I'm hiding the opposite and the sense of
being inauthentic of repressing a part
of our s is very painful that secret
self I call it the Lost self it wants to
come out it wants to play it wants to be
like that child and go out and play and
be in the world and so when somebody
enters your life who touches upon that
who has a little bit of that dark energy
and you fall for it it's because you've
been repressing it and it's it's
secretly what you want very much so I
think people secretly want to be seduced
now and I see signs of it in our culture
I've seen signs of it in politics you
find a a uh a what's the word um well
like a a a charismatic politician
there's a word I can't seem to my mind
isn't a little bit slow today um that
has this sort of strong quality like a
demagogue demagogue thank you thank you
God you you have to be my brain today CU
sometimes it's like not clicking there
so the demagogue we're attracted to the
demagogue because secretly we want that
kind of power we want that dark side to
come out into play it's all through our
culture entertainment is wreaking with
this stuff you know you have in movies
if you want to talk about vampires and
going back to your vampire
thing all of the evil characters the
seducers yes in the movie we may
moralize them we may say they're awful
they're horrible we hate them but boy
all of our attention is drawn
immediately to those dark evil
characters to those seducers to those
people who have that dark energy people
are dying for it you know it's been
repressed and it's what I wrote about in
human nature about the Dark Side of our
shadow that we're trying to repress is
seduction necessarily a dark
energy it has to involve some kind of
sense of danger of something that's a
little bit
naughty so if
I want to pick up a woman and I go to a
bar just throwing out a scenario here
and it's so easy I I don't even have to
buy her a drink she follows oh yes of
course Robert I'll go home with you yes
yes you're so attracted blah blah blah
there's no interest there there's no
excitement there's no spark but a bit of
resistance a bit of I'm not so
interested oh you know I already have a
boyfriend blah blah blah whooo my
interest is
going like that so we are by Nature
attracted to what we cannot have and I
explain why that is so in the laws of
human nature on on a chapter on the
nature of our
desire things that we can have or that
we don't have excite our desire more
than anything else so a sense of
resistance a sense that we're not
supposed to have this person or that
they're not supposed to have us is
exactly what entices us into it so if
there's no element of naughtiness if
there's no element of a slight taboo or
transgressive nature it's not going to
get our juices going our erotic our
fantasy juices and all that other stuff
like my wife and I are very much in
another era my opening line to my wife
was um you're not going anywhere sit
your ass down and when I said that I was
her teacher school for adults always
feel important to say that um yeah I was
her teacher and my opening line was
playfully aggressive but aggressive and
it that our courtship was very much like
textbook seduction and it was awesome
and amazing and also now so high risk
that I don't know that I would have made
that move now and so you know look to
your point maybe over enough time this
plays out that people push back against
it and well they already are but what do
you say to people in this moment well
yeah there are boundaries you have to
respect and you and it is a cultural
moment and first of all there is nothing
in The Art of Seduction That ever even
comes close to advocating violence or
rape or or Force ing yourself or
coercion yes some of it's psychological
and I know it it kind of Teeters on that
boundary where you're
psychologically manipulating someone to
a degree but there's never any element
of physical Force right so I understand
personally I don't think that that is
seductive to be forcing yourself on it
to be that um you know overpowering I
think is is not seductive because
seduction is inviting the other person
in it's a gentleness that brings them in
later on the powerful stuff can come in
but you have to be able to to see those
codes and and respect them so there's
nothing in The Art of Seduction That
would ever violate that code I think so
I know there's a a chapter in the in in
the strategy part the second half of the
book that people point out as kind of
evil and I admit it's a little bit
teetering towards that which is about
isolating the other person so
you kind of take them to a place where
their family and their friends there's
nobody around they don't have anybody
else but you right and it could be an
island it could be a place or it could
be just literally where you take get
them away from their familiar
surroundings and when they're in
unfamiliar territory they become much
more vulnerable now I understand there's
an element you would never ever start
out of Seduction with that strategy I
have those in order it's like it's like
strategy number 17 of 24 it's towards
the end it's towards when you've gotten
them you've cast a spell and they're
hooked a little bit toward okay so in
the beginning you're respecting all of
that but as long as there's never any
taint of force of coercion because
that's what the me too movement was
about because men were exploiting and in
a bad way and not in a seductive way
were using their positions of power to
get women to do sexual favors or to
harass them in some way way there's
nothing seductive about that there's
nothing in my book about that so if
you're reading the book you don't have
to be afraid of violating any of me to
uh uh tenants in fact the opposite
because the fifth chapter or so was
enter their spirit it's all about being
incredibly incredibly receptive to who
they are as an individual right and and
knowing how to give the right gifts and
how to how to see them for who they are
etc etc etc so it's it's the reputation
of Seduction That that some people are
like think oh I don't want anything to
do with that in fact the book is banned
my book is banned in Germany they pulled
it off the shelf German people are
writing to me all the time how can I get
a copy of your book specifically The Art
of Seduction yes interesting do you have
any sense of why feminists in Germany
were protesting it feminists in France
were protesting it and I wrote a letter
to my French publisher explaining why
that's ridiculous they published it and
and the whole furer died down because it
is ridiculous did they say why like well
they found it psychologically
manipulative so a man who is who is like
that who who who there's another word
I'm missing but who could be like that
um this is a book that could help him do
figure out the various tactics for for
misleading a woman and leading her into
uh you know like grooming her for some
kind of relationship she's going to
reget reget you know first of all that
makes women seem like these weak little
fragile little dolls from the 19th
century that need all of this protection
from the from the evil man but in fact
if you you know my book explains to you
how a Seducer works and it gives you the
knowledge for how to resist him how to
recognize somebody who might be using
some of these tactics in a way that's
going to be dangerous for you and I've
had women write to me and tell me that
the book has helped them immensely in
understanding that then I'm not weak I
can figure out I can I can identify a
Seducer etc etc I can protect myself I
have the inner strength to be able to do
that so I think the book kind of fed
into this idea that I was giving
instruction but half the book is about
women seducing men which is the
absurdity I have gay seductions I have a
transgender seduction it's not a book
about men seducing women with their dark
energy it's about seduction in general
the whole psychological process it's
part of our culture where we're
infantilizing people well we don't think
that they're adults and I assume that my
readers are adults that they can see use
the book for whatever purpose it can and
a lot of it is to give them knowledge
that will help them defend themselves
against people who have bad
intentions yeah I also think it's
important for people to understand the
way the world works and the reality is
while a lot of the human animal makes us
uncomfortable the human animal is what
the human animal is and while anybody
listening I will tell you it will blow
your hair back but I highly encourage
people to read a billion Wicked thoughts
um it is what people search for when
they're searching for um pornography is
is hair raising it is really pretty eye
opening it is
shocking and that's just who we are so
under the hood is is a a monkey brain
that is worrying and has had you know
millions of years of evolution and we
think that we've escaped all that but we
haven't so and I'll I'll contextualize
my own thoughts on this subject by
saying I used to be the nice guy and I'm
very curious to know if you think nice
guys finished last I will say they do uh
I certainly did when I was when I was
playing when I was using the tactics of
a nice guy now nice guy carries weird
connotations today probably rightly so
in that quote unquote nice guys I think
are power less they don't understand the
game uh you actually had a
quote I can get really close if I have
to paraphrase but um the idea being that
um powerlessness yeah corrupts more than
power yeah it's a quote of Malcolm X
actually okay tell me more well um so we
all desire a degree of of power and
control in life and you have to
understand the word power is not just
like about politics or about Elon Musk
or anything I'm talking about in our
day-to-day lives right how we interact
with people the sense that I cannot
influence my boss my colleagues my wife
my children the people around me is
deeply deeply miserable for us right it
makes us feel powerless and when we're
powerless
we either we turn in on ourselves we end
up hating ourselves and we get depressed
or we become passive aggressive and we
start manipulating other people in ways
where which we can justify to ourselves
as oh no I'm not really doing that I'm
actually a good person but it's actually
can be very very harmful so you have to
admit that you want a degree of power
you want the the ability to influence
people and you're not going to be
hypocritical you're going to be honest
with yourself you know
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niceness is okay is a good quality if
it's under control if you understand it
and if you use it and you know how to
use it strategically and it's maybe it's
a part of your personality it's
authentic but it doesn't govern you you
are in control of it and what happens is
if you're the pleasing
type which is your whole strategy in
life is pleasing other people getting
them to like you which is you know a
quality that a lot of people have men
and women right it doesn't come from a
place of security it comes from a place
of deep deep insecurity you're not you
don't understand really who you are and
so you can't control it and so you're
always trying to please people and when
we can sense we can smell people's
insecurities and when it comes to like
seduction with between men and women
women have a sick sense of they can
smell an insecure man right and you can
they can smell it in you they can smell
it in all kinds of ways and trying so
hard to please and trying so hard to be
nice secretly indicates that you're
actually very weak inside and it's very
much a turnoff it's very anti- seductive
and
so you want to be nice but you want to
be strategic about it you want to know
sometimes I don't want to be nice
sometimes I want to show create
boundaries sometimes I want to pull back
I want to play the coet I want the woman
to know she does she can't take me for
granted right I'm not interested in her
the moment you show her that you're not
interested in her she's going to be much
more interested in you you're willing to
play a little bit that tough part of it
you're in control you're strategic you
know when to use absence and when to use
presents when to to text them and call
them and when to disappear for a couple
a week or so and make them feel like
they don't you know they they can't take
you for granted so know when to be nice
and you can use it to to effect but you
also know when I don't want to be nice
in this world and that pertains to all
sort of situations and negotiation Etc
if you're always so nice in business
you're you're going to be a doom you're
not going to survive very long I come at
this from a evolutionary perspective and
so the reason because I was so bad with
women for so long and then figured out
how to quote quot play the game and it
worked literally on a dime from what
literally from one day to the next I
could not be successful with women to I
felt like within my sexual market value
let me not oversell this but within my
sexual market value I could be
successful sort of when I wanted to be
and it it was so it was such a set of
rules that I was following that I
actually had to laugh out loud I was
like I cannot believe it took me this
long to just figure out that oh I have
to present myself a certain way that uh
you don't want to go for the close right
away that you really this is about um a
strategic revealing of your personality
it's about understanding what's going to
get them exciting you might hate this
description but it's marketing once you
understand that you're a brand you have
to establish what your brand means you
have to make them feel some kind of way
about you the way that you're
establishing your B brand better be real
and one of the things I'm sure we'll
talk about today is I take all of this I
I've been married to the same woman for
21 years we've been together for 23 to
me that we had to seduce each other in
the beginning and then at some point
that becomes a a deep long-term pair
bond which is a totally different game
and I really hope everybody can get good
at both games because that's really how
you end up having an amazing love life
that will ride with you through the ups
and downs but seduction is real people
need to stop pretending that it's not
from my perspective this is based on
Evolution that women and it's
interesting cuz I think you push back a
little bit on looking at the 30,000 fo
view of men and women I'll make a case
for it if you hate it tell me you hate
it but here's my case there's a quote I
forget who it's by forgive me whoever
said this this is a paraphrase any
individual woman is a mystery but taken
as a whole they're a mathematical
certainty it was technically said about
men but you get the idea and that makes
sense to me and so I you're right like
ultimately I had to figure out my wife I
didn't just have to figure out women as
a general thing I had to figure out my
wife but every time I think of my wife
as thinking like me I can't predict her
behavior the second I lump her in the
mathematical certainty of women are like
this then I'm way closer to being able
to predict her behaviors and so I think
it's very important to understand the
distinction between how men think and
how women think what we fantasize about
how we approach sex what we think of as
seductive but you're not going to get
get that from a book so you can read all
of the facts about this is how women
think etc etc the best way to do that is
by observing them so if you pay
attention to the person that you're
trying to S if you pay if you start
paying attention to women as young an
ear at the earliest possible age you
will see these qualities in them you
will see the fact that they are
interested more in stories that they
want that they don't want to be feel
like it's just about sex and you're in a
hurry to get them to that point these
aren't great Mysteries that you need to
read from a book it's pretty clear if
you pay attention right so I just want
to get men out of the M because we are
so goddamn analytical it's such a
problem that reading a book reading a
text having algorithms is the only way
we can think get the [ __ ] out of there
and pay attention to the person develop
your your mirror neurons develop your
observational skills develop the human
part of you that observes that feels
what the other person is feeling if you
depend so much on things that you've
learned from The Art of Seduction or
from a book it's going to make you a bad
Seducer but to the degree that you can
click into those human qualities that we
all possess where you sense the
emotional tone of the other person you
sense what they're vulnerable
vulnerabilities you sense what they're
missing in life yes maybe 60% of women
are missing a similar thing that there
are patterns to and maybe reading about
it can kind of click that into you okay
fine I'm not going to say that that's
all bad but the main thing you want is
to be getting out of your head and into
your emotions and into observing and
into feeling what the other person is
feeling and not being so head oriented
not being so analytical you know that I
think is the main problem that a lot of
men face it's really interesting my
experience was I needed to understand it
analytically because I didn't have the
intuition for it and it may be that I
just just didn't look I don't believe
people are born with intuition I think
that it develops over time so for
whatever weird reason the intuition I
developed was that if I wrote poetry and
showed up with flowers on the first date
which I actually did multiple times uh
that that would get me somewhere and it
did not get me anywhere I was actually
once this is where you ask any kids
listening in the car to you turn the
radio down whatever uh but this is a
true story I was in bed with a woman we
were getting naked we were rounding
third base and I managed to mess that up
because I displayed what I will call uh
at a moment where I should have been
confident and uh masculine you might
hate that word but um I displayed what I
will now God I don't even like saying
this out loud but it's true uh I
displayed a more feminine trait and was
like let's not go any farther unless
this means something which isn't what I
was feeling those exact words which
isn't what I was feeling
it was what I thought she wanted to hear
and it was not and it put the breaks on
the whole situation well it's very easy
to explain why that would happen because
that makes her think that oh maybe he's
not so into it maybe I'm not that
attractive women secretly want to feel
that you desire them that you're that
she is so attractive that you're going
to lose control and you didn't lose
control in that moment and you blew it
you [ __ ] it uph so it's very obvious
why that didn't work yeah obvious to you
now where were you back then Robert
Green uh because I still want to punch
myself in the mouth for that entire
evening so yeah lesson learned we've all
made mistakes like that yeah I'm going
to guess that that one's pretty bad uh
so what I had to really begin to
understand was what women actually were
going to respond to and not the terrible
assumptions that I had built up in my
mind yeah and what I began to realize is
that um there are things that women want
that don't they are not the same as what
I want and so when I started realizing
okay making that person my like what you
just said you're losing control making
and that's where I think you get like
the billionaire archetype of okay this
is somebody that has everything that is
normally this you actually talk about
this in your book you say normally men
get completely lost in what I think you
refer to as masculine Pursuits and so I
read that to me Hyper pursuit in
business being myopically focused on
something working yourself to death
which certainly resonates with the life
my wife is living right now where I I
work an obscene amount now if you ask my
wife what does she want she'll say
quality time which is another way of
saying I want this person who's made a
ton of money who's at the top of the
business Heap I want him to stop all of
that because I'm so irresistible that
he's only going to pay attention to me
and the way that makes her feel when I'm
just completely focused on her I'm not
touching ing my phone I'm not my mind
isn't wandering I am locked in on her
I'm making her feel physically
attractive I'm making her feel the truth
which is she is my mental equal like all
of that that she's a woman I have to
contend with that she's captured my
imagination that she has taken this wild
stallion as evidenced in and I don't
mean stallion Studley I just mean this
unbroken cult that is you know off-
running in the world of business she's
gotten a saddle on me slowed me down got
me to pay attention to her I mean this
is the Beauty and the Beast mythology
where she is so special that she has
been able to capture the attention of
the person who's never had their
attention captured before now I've never
thought about this before I've only ever
told my wife uh that I love you I've
never told that to another woman because
I was never in love before so for my
wife it really was the um what in
literary circles they call in erotic
literary circles they call the magic
hoo-ha so for my wife she was the only
one that was able to break me out of
that she's the only person that's ever
gotten me to slow down in my ambition to
pay attention to her and once I could
see it from not just my wife's
perspective but the general that's what
women are looking for perspective and I
was like oh wow like I really get now
why she wants my attention that that
isn't something I should be frustrated
by that yeah this is even now 23 years
in it's a seductive tool that I can play
which is you've completely captured my
attention like if I see my wife and
she's looking good I'm going to stop
whatever I'm doing and tell her and make
sure she knows and feels it viscerally
and all of that required me to
understand just the psychology of the
whole
situation I have no problem with that is
it something that I seem to have
disagreed with no not at all that's just
me um appealing to the nice guys out
there of I get you either may it may be
insecurity which mine was certainly
driven by that or you may think it's a
winning strategy I get that but it isn't
well one thing that I think is very
seductive that I can point out here and
it has a little bit to do with what
you're saying is what I call
generosity generosity is is a very
powerful seductive quality it doesn't
mean money as as you might necessarily
assume it can mean money
but it means that you're generous with
your attention you're generous with with
what you're giving to the other person
right so you know the main thing for a
man who's we tend to be very linear
focused mono focused on this one thing
and there's an evolutionary reason for
that for tens of thousands of years
hunting we had to just focus on one
thing women were focusing on many
different things at the same time you
know they're they're they could
multitask we can't um so getting out of
that mono rail that you're in with your
attention and being able to give to the
other person and give them attention and
in the initial phases shower them with
the attention that they're not getting
from other people although you can go a
little too far with that so you
sometimes you have to step back and kind
of be absent for a little bit so they
they don't feel like it's you're not
like a stalk you're not like it doesn't
come from an insecure place you're in
control of it but the sense of being
generous with your personality with the
time with the attention you get is
incredibly incredibly seductive the
sense that you're not generous and
stingy with money you like take them to
a cheap restaurant you ask them to pay
you're kind of you know you that's a
sign that you're not generous in general
so uh maybe that's part of the the
billionaire appeal where you assume that
that person's going to be very generous
at least with their money so the sense
of being closed inside yourself and
stingy and not wanting to give to the
other person give of your time your
attention your money all these other
things that is deeply deeply
anti-education in a negative way by um
changing gender
Norms I don't know if I want to get into
that
that Hornet's Nest but um you know in
seduction I I I make it clear and I made
it clear in my human nature book that
we're a mix of qualities that nobody is
completely masculine and no woman is
completely feminine men have feminine
qualities women have masculine qualities
some men have more feminine qualities
than masculine some women V we're a mix
it's a chemical thing and there's no way
to predict that right and it's always
been that way but but um there's ways
that kind of element of androgyny for
instance can be very very seductive and
very powerful if you know how to use it
right so I'm not going to say that um
that's overly complicating things in
fact the sense of kind of crossing
boundaries with gender is actually a
sign of some of the periods in history
where thing where things were the most
open to seduction so for centuries women
could not seduce men and I you I can I
can delineate that period I mean going
through all throughout ancient history
and I talk about it in my new book
because to be interested in a
woman so much that you wanted to give
them attention and time meant that you
were feminine right and the men were
masculine they were warriors etc etc
they weren't interested in the inner
worlds of women women were there to
clean the house and and to make babies
essentially so seduction was not
something that really existed in the
ancient world except with some
exceptions like Cleopatra Etc so the
idea that you're interested in a woman
and in her world is already admitting
there's a feminine element within you
and so I look at moments in history and
I just wrote about this like in the
Middle Ages where our whole notion of
Love Came From at least the Western
Ocean or you look in the 18th century
the grand EP of of Seduction with
Casanova and all those characters you
look at the 1920s in America and in
Europe a period of incredible Sexual
Energy freedom and seduction these were
periods where there was a lot of
androgyny going on so I don't
necessarily think that that's something
that's going to limit the the seductive
qualities and the energy that's in the
atmosphere I think what's hindering us
is not the gender Norms it's more our
kind of defensiveness our closed Spirit
our desire to to be completely in
control of of our circumstances by by
withdrawing into our egos and being
afraid of of being hurt being afraid of
being wrong being afraid of of not being
strong etc etc I think that has more a
more inhibiting Factor on on seduction
in the world why do you think young
people are having so much less sex right
now well for men a lot of it has to do
with
porn I mean I'm not sure I'm not a
scientist I'm not a sociologist but that
would be my
estimation where first of all they're
having a lot of sex virtually and second
of all their idea of sex and what is
pleasurable what a what a woman should
be like comes from those ideals in
pornography and the look etc etc and so
it's not as much of a need for them Etc
to to kind of physically we become much
more virtual in how we get pleasure in
life um um also I think there's an
element of fear as I said I mean young
people have grown up in these in these
periods of massive uh economic
instability they've had to deal with the
08 collapse with the pandemic and
everything that's happened there so
they've had to deal with circumstances
that are very powerful and that are
going to make them anxious as well as
all of the helicopter parenting that
many of them had to to live through so
they're filled with much more anxiety
right now than I think in my generation
and that anxiety makes you want to kind
of retreat into your own inner world and
having
sex at least for a man and you can
probably relate to this it's a feeling
of you're almost like it's almost like
too much you're almost like weak
afterwards you're almost like afraid of
it you're afraid of the power that a
woman has over you right you obviously
get over that very quickly and you deal
with it but there's an element of fear
involved and especially when you're an
adolescent especially when it's when
you're younger and so I think the levels
of fear and anxiety that young people
are having in the world and rightly so I
don't condemn that for that is probably
why there's less physical ex sexual and
psychological interactions with members
of the opposite
sex yeah I think it's inevitably going
to be a very complicated issue and like
you I'm not a scientist but um I am
always willing to talk about things that
I know nothing about just to walk people
through how I think about a problem uh
so looking at it I think that a big part
of the problem is what you're talking
about with insecurity I think that the
way the world is set up right now
whether it's um pornography whether it
is uh a society that's really spent the
last several decades telling men that
they their masculine impulses are bad
and for better or worse I think that
sexuality male sexuality is tied up in
power and I think sex itself is uh
dances around power dynamics it's one of
the the main things in female erotica as
power dynamics and it man you want to
dive into a hornets nest like power
dynamics people get real weird about
this subject um but with all of that if
men are either because the economy is
weird and they're not able to get on the
property ladder and they've got you know
$180,000 in debt and they don't feel
like they're going anywhere and they're
lost in a sense of hopelessness they
have easy access to pornography um
they're just not feeling powerful and if
they're not feeling powerful then
they're going to uh struggle to feel
confident in the bedroom and I mean just
to really put it all out there um I
think a guy has has to feel confident
and Powerful not in a weird like I'm a
dominant way but strong and confident
rooted in his body and feeling good
about himself to get and maintain an
erection like you're not going to see a
lot of people who are insecure scared uh
sporting erections those are sort of
flip sides the same take a lot of Viagra
or something I guess but do you really
think like I would be surprised it just
that puts you in and also just bodies
right so diet nutrition hour so horrible
that I have to imagine a lot of people
are just physically not in a place where
they're feeling good about themselves uh
you wrap that all up and you get to what
I'm sure is the tip of a very large
iceberg that I've grossly oversimplified
but no no no I think you you touched
upon a point that's very valid I and I
didn't touch upon I think it's very true
is that um it's it's not a good time to
be a man right now it's very confusing
you know our role models are very mixed
up we don't really know what is a
positive virtue for a man we think that
we look at somebody like Andrew Tate as
possibly an icon a lot at least a lot of
young people do which I don't at all I
think that's I think it's really gross
and vulgar and full of all kinds of
insecurities a man like that a kind of
an icon sort of a sense of strength from
either a political figure a leader or an
actor or anything that used to be in the
culture we don't really have that and
men are are seen as something kind of
ugly in our culture you know it seems
like ugly energy that comes from men and
I every time I read the newspaper I I
see that kind of that kind of slant on
things that anytime a man is sort of
revealing a kind of atavistic trait of
being kind of dominant and strong ew
ugly oh he's you know he's awful he's
he's primitive he's not you know etc etc
and so it's very very confusing and I
remember being a young man myself
growing up I'm such an old person that I
can remember like the late 60s you know
and it was kind of confusing then and I
was struggling and I had a good role
model with my father he was very he was
very gentle but he was also quite
masculine Etc and I remember being
confused about it and kind of straining
and trying to find a proper masculine
role model and it was a struggle and and
I found it sometimes with my teachers my
professors in school and other people I
later grab itated to but the sense of
this is what it means to be a man these
are good qualities the quality of being
a leader of being strong of even being
kind of dominant and being able to
dominate a group and dominate a room or
to be so powerful that your voice can
carry these are all positive traits we
wouldn't be here right now Tom Talking
you and I if men didn't have those
traits right if they didn't have the
courage to face you know enemies with
Spears etc etc these are all positive
qualities just have to be channeled in
in socially productive ways which is
what an Andrew Tate doesn't do but if
only we could craft a Frankenstein
monster of what an ideal male figure
would be like it would be very very
helpful for young men and I don't mean
to craft it in a fantasy way it would be
great if there was really people like
that you know in this world today so you
know um to me a masculine quality is a
kind of inner strength a it doesn't need
to yell it doesn't need to scream it
doesn't need to bully people it's just
so strong that people are attracted to
it and it emanates it radiates itself
and people can feel it you know so you
don't have to yell at someone I remember
when I was at uh on the board of
directors of American Apparel and the
CEO um who we ended up firing he was a
good friend of mine he's brilliant in
some things but he could he was yelling
at people left right and Center he
thought that's what power is that's what
being masculine is and I thought it just
showed incredible
weakness the ability to set an example
to tell people this is how you should be
by how I'm behaving Etc taking
responsibility these are that's a
masculine quality not blaming other
people we need to redefine what it means
to be masculine and what are the
positive aspects of it I think is very
very critical for our culture talk to me
about aggression I think men should have
a gear that is aggressive should be a
gear I don't think they should live
there what do you think completely I
mean and you know my wife can attest
this I'm an insanely competitive person
right to the degree that it's almost
maybe unhealthy right so like I'm
bicycling up a hill and people pass me
God damn it you can't pass me I'm going
to pass you even though right now I
can't because I'm physically weaker I'm
still trying to do that on my stupid
recumbent bike Etc I'm very very very
competitive and that competitive energy
I think a lot of men have it's what
directs us towards Sports you know and
I'm I'm a Sports Addict
Etc compet being competitive is aligned
with being
ambitious and getting back to seduction
a man who seems ambitious is very very
seductive and having no ambition is very
unmasculine and very anti- seductive but
we have we see the word ambition as
being kind of ugly as if it's like
egocentric as if it's selfish but damn
it this world was built by people who
are ambitious theyve created it right
you wouldn't be here you wouldn't have
the internet you wouldn't have all your
little tools that you whine and complain
about if it weren't for people who were
incredibly ambitious ambitious people
have created the world so men have
aggressive energy it's the testosterone
flowing through us right you can't you
can't repress it you can't get rid of it
it's there there and how you Channel it
is the key you can become very
self-destructive you can Channel it
towards violence you can Channel it
towards pushing people
around or you could say I'm going to I'm
going to channel towards being
competitive to towards being the best
person at what I'm doing we talked I
think last time I was here when I was
talking about the human nature we talked
about Kobe Bryant a man who had a dark
side he is so competitive to a degree
would could have killed him it was just
awful and he ack knowledges it he
channeled it into the basketball court
and it made him Fant made him the one of
the greatest players ever it's how you
take that energy that testosterone that
aggression and what you do with it
that's the critical factor and that's
where I think a lot of men are confused
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