Kind: captions
Language: en
So for anybody that doesn't know you're
a former CIA legitimate spy which is
crazy and the reason I find that
interesting is because you would have to
be a master of psychology your own and
others and this also gets into where we
are in the world right now I've heard
you say that we are potentially already
in the beginnings of World War III which
hits a little too close to home in terms
of how I view what's going on but here's
a quote the core element of being able
to control a relationship is
understanding the Pink Matter truth of
feelings what all people feel becomes
their point of view on what reality is
so when you understand it and you learn
how to manipulate how people feel then
you can essentially direct them to feel
any way you want them to feel
woof I mean I sound like a sick bastard
sometimes man hearing my own words back
to me like what kind of evil person came
up with that idea I'll assume that we're
going to use these for good
both as a screenwriter and as an
entrepreneur the idea of being able to
take somebody's perspective to actually
think like they think
is really important so the that the idea
that you capture in that quote is what I
call frame of reference
now in my marriage the biggest arguments
that I have with my wife are always
where I'm I'll be saying to her I'm not
able to penetrate your frame of
reference and people feel a certain way
they see the world a certain way and if
you can't get inside that then you're in
trouble and so what I like about the
quote is basically what I'm taking from
that is if you can see their perspective
the the elements that Cobble it together
that make them feel the things that they
feel then you can steer that
relationship now again I'll assume we're
steering it for good for the purposes of
this conversation but I do really want
to understand more about that one how do
you take somebody's perspective how do
you build something where you can
reasonably I can be able to mind read
but you can reasonably understand where
they're coming from the first big thing
that you hit on uh and I'm actually
gonna I'm gonna tweak what you said
it's not about getting into people's
perspective most people don't have
perspective the average person has no
perspective they live in a world of
perception how they perceive the world
around them most individuals at least
that's what we learn at CIA individuals
live with a frame of reference around
themselves
they're the center of the movie they're
the star of the show they're the center
of the universe
that is an inherently human thing to do
because humans in our evolutionary
process and the Pink Matter that is our
brains we're always worried about
survival
we've never outgrown that the
technological development and the
technological evolution of the world has
happened exponentially faster than the
human evolvement the human evolution of
the world so while you and I are sitting
here in 2023 we our brains work in
essentially the same way as they worked
in 1823 but the world around us is
extremely different we don't need to
worry about Survival anymore now we're
supposed to be worrying about how to
thrive how to meet our objectives how to
meet our goals
if you think about it humans just 200
years ago humans had to worry about how
do I make it to the next day how do I
just survive they were always focused on
the here and now and how do I make it
work today so I can live again tomorrow
you and I don't worry about how to make
it through today most people are
thinking about
what am I gonna do this weekend what am
I going to do next week when is my
upcoming vacation we don't worry about
the Here and Now
but the brain is still wired to live
first and foremost in this survival
mindset the survival process so the Pink
Matter that exists in your brain and
mind and everybody around us is still
very much focused on the self as the
most important element and because of
that it views everything around its
everything around the environment and
around the individual through a lens of
perception
what I perceive is real to me
to hell with what you perceive what I
perceive is the truth my stepdad used to
lecture me about perception is reality
perception is reality Andrew perception
is reality and I disagreed with him from
the time I was 12 years old I was like
no dad reality
is reality if I perceive a car coming
down the road and it is in line to hit
me if I perceive that it's not going to
hit me doesn't make a difference right
reality is reality what CAA taught me
was a better way of explaining what
reality actually is and reality is that
98 of human beings are trapped in their
own perception so the two percent that
live in the real world that have
perspective they are able to manipulate
the perception of everybody else
okay so when you were in training did
you have to like are there
um like five bullet points or whatever
that you begin to go okay people are
they're in survival mode
um they're looking at the world through
their own eyes they have fears like is
is there a framework by which you begin
to understand the other person yes uh
there is it doesn't really boil down to
five bullet points but it does boil down
to essentially like a handful of short
lectures right but walk me through it so
here's here's how I imagine you I don't
know if this is real or not but the very
first thing I wrote down when I started
researching it was how the hell do you
manage your own anxiety when you're in
spy mode and you can't give yourself
away but you have to figure something
out about that person so I imagine you
walk up to them whatever that you know
framework is the rubric that you're
determining who they are by I imagine it
kicks in right away how do you start
categorizing them when you first walk up
so when you first walk up to somebody
you've got to keep in mind that nobody
is what they appear to be nobody every
every human being has three lives it's
what we're taught three lives there's a
uh public life
a secret life and a private life right
so the order is public life private life
Secret Life
the public life is what we're all
presenting to each other it's what we
want to appear as in public
right you want to look cool and Suave
and handsome and you want to sound nice
and you want to surround yourself with
nice things because that's what you want
the public to perceive about you it may
not be real
but it doesn't have to be real if they
perceive it to be true then you have won
because you have just proceed you have
just manipulated their perception that's
why broke ass high school and college
kids will still wear nice name brand
stuff so they don't pers they don't look
like they're broke ass students right I
was one of those students so I remember
then you've got your private life now
your private life is what your closest
confidants know about you so what your
wife might know about you what your
close friends know about you what your
parents know about you so publicly
nobody knows my feet smell bad
privately my wife knows my feet smell
bad right but I'm never going to make
that part of my public Persona because
it goes against what I'm trying to
display as an image so here you've got
these two lives
when you meet a stranger they're
presenting their public life
always most of your connections most of
your friends unless they are in the
private life they are all in the public
life your co-workers your customers
these are all people who you are dealing
with you're interacting with on a public
life to public life level
we haven't even talked about the secret
life right the secret life is the life
that you don't share with anyone it's
that place where your darkest thoughts
your biggest
uh vulnerabilities it's where they live
and convince you every day not to share
them with your spouse not to share them
with your parents the things that make
you feel horrible about yourself the
things that you that you wonder if
they're really true but you're afraid to
even ask the question because what would
they think
they the public life they the private
life how would people judge me we all
have a secret life too for some people
secret life is big for some people's
secret life is quite small
but you've got these three lives so when
I approach somebody in spy mode or in
business mode or in Social mode I know
I'm dealing with a public life first so
are you trying to peel beneath that
sometimes spy mode in spy mode I'm sorry
no no please this is so interesting to
the average person you have no idea like
this is like movie [ __ ] in in spy mode
you have two objectives objective number
one is to get into someone's private
life as quickly as possible because if
you're not unless you're in someone's
private life you'll never get into their
secret life
objective number two once you're in
private life is to become one of the few
people that will ever penetrate their
secret life and there's only one reason
why you want to penetrate someone's
secret life because once you're there
you never leave
once someone has trusted you with a
secret life Secret
their their fealty to you their loyalty
to you is beyond question forever
because they believe that you have
earned that right to their secret life
they believe that you two are inherently
connected
star-crossed lovers Soul matches they
rationalize it however they need to
rationalize it but essentially all they
did is they just in a moment of
vulnerability they let you into one of
their deepest darkest secrets so they
have been leveraged like debt they have
been leveraged now so their deepest
darkest secret hinges on you keeping it
a secret and that is interpreted as
loyalty they interpret that as this is
the most trusted Confidant this is my
most trusted Lieutenant this person gets
me this person understands me I need to
be I need to have I need to do life with
this person so when you're a spy and you
get into someone's secret life that
means you get all the secrets if they're
a general in a nuclear program in a
hostile country you can just ask them a
question hey who are your missiles
pointed at what's the temperature sure
that you guys use or how often do you
enrich your uranium what's your primary
source of uranium you can ask them
anything because they don't even care
about that that's all stuff that they
basically have in their private life
you're in their secret life that stuff's
yours they'll just give it to you the
stuff they really care about is I'm
really not happy I'm I'm trapped in this
marriage that was arranged by my parents
and what I really like is this kinky
thing with this whatever that's going to
get me you know killed in my own country
but I can tell you about it so how do
you how do you get into that mode I'm
guessing you have to understand
something about them first so you have
to know what makes them tick you have to
understand what's going to make them
suspicious what's going to trip them up
are those like generally true or do you
have to tailor them to that specific
person
they you come in
to any operation against a human being
so human intelligence is called human
human operations human intelligence
operations whenever you come into a
human's operation you're using a
generalized dossier of the target set so
if I know I'm talking to an Asian person
who has traveled to Europe maybe
educated in Europe their parents are
well to do they live in China but they
were born in Cambodia you can kind of
come up with a general sense of the
person
walk me through that though so are you
thinking okay if you're born in Chinese
culture it's more collective in nature
so you probably feel a tremendous sense
of pressure from your family and so how
do I leverage that or no you have a
certain reaction to Authority and if I
can position myself like like are you
thinking like that you are exactly
that's exactly how you're thinking so
there's a couple things to keep in mind
so first is that there's three
developmental stages to the human brain
there's three developmental stages to
the human brain there's from birth to
seven years old from birth to seven
years old we're all sponges we don't
differentiate between true and untrue
information there's just information
right this is one of the reasons why my
son when he was four
just fell head over heels in love with
his grandpa his Grandpa's wrong pretty
much all the time he just lies he tells
stories that that never happened he just
makes stuff up right oh the reason this
is happening is because of that and I'm
like no that's that's not true at all my
four-year-old son doesn't care or when
he was four he didn't care but Babu who
he calls his grandpa Babu Babu tells the
best stories so now my son is 10. he has
left that first developmental stage but
because of those years spent with his
grandfather he is now predisposed to
believe his grandfather
the second developmental stage happens
from 7 to 13. in that period of time you
can start to differentiate true and
untrue information
but you choose which information you
want to give more value to so you're
still absorbing it you still retain it
but you might have a preference for one
information for one bit of information
or the other right so now this is the
place where it's like yeah I know I ate
broccoli once and it wasn't terrible but
I don't really want to eat it anymore
before that you're just like and if you
if you give a four-year-old broccoli
they'll put it in their mouth
so 7 to 13 people start to have a
preference for the information but they
still absorb it all
puberty from 13 to 25 nobody thinks
about this puberty lasts until you are
25 years old that period of time
cognitively is characterized by the fact
that you resist
some forms of information so now you
actually have a cognitive capacity to
hear something
and reject it and not even let it come
into your brain at all so 7 to 13 you
hear it you retain it whether you like
it or not zero to seven everything comes
in 13 to 25 you're actually rejecting
information so when we create a dossier
on somebody we're looking at those first
25 years where did they spend the first
seven years oh they spent it in China
lots of stuff we can ask we can high
probability assume a number of things
because they spent the first seven years
in China oh they spent their first seven
years in Alabama they've spent their
first seven years in in New York New
York they spent their first seven years
in Canada lots of stuff you can pull
from the foundation of how they were
programmed
seven to thirteen they did this okay so
they were exposed in some places like
Saudi Arabia North Korea turkey uh Syria
you can assume
that some pieces of information they
were just never exposed to right they
were predominantly exposed to one style
of information and if they were given
other information they may have absorbed
or they would have absorbed it but the
chances are they were never exposed to
it and then you look at them from their
puberty years 13 to 25 where were they
what were they doing what college did
they go to what high school did they go
to what countries were they in because
now you know well what would they have
been exposed to what would they have
rejected based on their predisposition
to these other formative years and now
you're talking them in their 35 or 45
after 25
neuroplasticity is still a thing for the
entirety of your life meaning your brain
can always learn something new but your
world view has been set by 25. so unless
something comes in and challenges your
worldview and you give it permission to
challenge your worldview
you're never going to change the way you
think after the age of 25. so we can
largely assume that every person that
we're talking to especially at their
government engineer super Secret
Squirrel stuff
they probably haven't been challenging
their worldview since the time that they
were 25. so now we have a we have these
different levels that we can use to make
probabilistic assumptions about how they
think and what they believe
when you have that dossier that
generalized dossier then you can go into
a more granular dossier about
what they drink what they eat who they
hang out with are they cheating on their
spouse how often do they use their phone
all the really Nitty Gritty detail stuff
to create a picture of how you want to
talk to this person so that your first
introductory line essentially
predisposes them to want to talk to you
for the entire conversation
and that's so interesting so do you did
you take classes on like okay if you
grew up in an American large city here
are going to be you know some of the
things you would have taken in by the
time you're 13 or
if you grew up in the Middle East then
it's you know you're going to be
probably Islamic culture here like the
main things you're going to need to know
about somebody like that so at CIA it's
organized according to disciplines so
they do a really good job of making sure
that people are compartmentalized in
terms of their skill sets so that no one
person can do everything and they also
capture the efficiency of scale by
having some people be really good at one
skill so they can essentially like a
like an industrial revolution uh
as
what is it called uh
assembly line so somebody says we need
to Target
nuclear engineers in Iran
and here is a list of and then a
different person a different discipline
says here's 12 nuclear Engineers that
travel outside of Iran that we think we
can actually get in front of and then
they give those 12 to an analyst team
and now your analytical targeters create
that generalized dossier and then that
those analytical targeters give it to
human targeters who create the
nitty-gritty dossier those human
targeters then give it to actual field
officers or case officers and say here
are the 12 people here's everything we
know about their background here's
everything we know about them
individually here's what we know about
their pattern of life where they hang
out what they like to order at their
favorite restaurants and what days of
the week they're going to be in those
restaurants and then they give it to the
field officer so the field officer can
review the whole case and say
here's how I'm going to do this here's
the day the place here's my opening line
here's where the conversation is going
to go we create our conversation map a
map of how we expect the conversation to
go with all of the different break-off
points where it might go awry and how we
bring it back together and then we go
and we execute and we execute what's
known as a bump or a cold introduction
with a known Target of interest and a
bump is your meat cute it's where you're
gonna bump into them I assume is where
that comes from from their perspective
yeah you're just bumping into them yeah
yeah right from their perception you're
just same place same time and it's
totally by happenstance because they're
living in their world if they actually
lived outside of their world they would
realize an entire team of people just
orchestrated this singular moment where
I say exactly the right thing to you at
exactly the right time to make the
conversation continue Jesus
are humans laughably predictable
laughably predictable
even I am laughably predictable man yeah
like it's you you and your team invited
me here knowing with high confidence
how I was going to react what I was
going to say unpredictable we all are
it's something that makes us human it's
just how you use another human's
predictability that kind of defines
whether you're Typecast as hero or
villain
so rough swags how many like personality
types do we break into there's science
that basically I'm I lean heavily on the
Myers-Briggs type indicator
it's what I was taught at the agency
it's what I've seen work in the field so
that's where I lean on and they break
people into 16 category types would that
be in your dossier that would be in your
dossier your Myers-Briggs would be the
estimated Myers-Briggs type indicator
for you would be in your dossier whoa
the field officer actually meets you
would then be able to tweak it further
because again public life private life
secret life you might we might assume
that you're an introvert and then I meet
you and you seem to act very extroverted
so now are you the introvert that we
assumed or are you the extrovert that
you present yourself to be only way
we're going to find out is by continued
consistent experience with you over time
right if I can get into your private
life and especially if I can get into
your secret life then I'll know then
I'll know whether you're introverted or
extroverted whether you're just playing
an extroverted role for the societal
opinion of you right but yeah it takes
time
so that would be in Udacity so I would
say roughly 16 types but then I would
also double that because every type is
going to have the the true personality
of who they actually are versus that
public life personality of who they're
trying to present themselves to be and
because each type each of those 16
personality types are predisposed to a
certain type of behavior publicly
they're also predisposed to a certain
type of behavior privately so how
different would their Myers-Briggs be
from so they're presenting themselves as
one personality type but in reality not
reality in secret life they're a
different personality type would those
often be very Divergent
sometimes not so sometimes they're very
Divergent it really depends on the
individual let me give you an example
right when we think about personalities
let's talk through a lens of resources
right individual resources so human
beings we're taught that human beings
only have three resources that matter
there is time
energy and money that's it every other
resource boils down to one of those
three resources time energy and money
for you to accomplish anything it takes
a certain balance of time energy and
money
so when it comes time for you or I to
live our public life
we go to a restaurant we go to uh I was
just at Megacon a big comic book
conference right I was there with my
kids and my wife it takes a certain
amount of money to buy the ticket money
to take to invest in the hotel room and
everything else it takes a certain
amount of energy to put up with all
those people and the lines and your kids
going crazy for Megacon and your wife
trying to get in line to meet Beverly
Crusher right from Star Trek so there's
a certain amount of energy that goes
into it and then of course there's a
time element
when you meet with somebody
you have to understand how they're three
those three resources are being used at
any given time so if you meet somebody
at the beginning of the day they're most
likely fully resourced you can reboot
your life your health even your career
anything you want all you need is
discipline I can teach you the tactics
that I learned while growing a billion
dollar business that will allow you to
see your goals through whether you want
better health stronger relationships a
more successful career any of that is
possible with the mindset and business
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today
you meet somebody at the end of the day
the gas tanks are at different levels
energy might be lower time is probably
running on empty uh money might be might
be safe that's it helps to know the
financial status of your client or your
target right so it you have to
understand how people's resources are
different the more a person's resources
are depleted
the closer they get to their true
Myers-Briggs Personality that is
interesting when they're fully resourced
they can fake it
they can act extroverted they can take
extra time to think something through
they can be non-judgmental but when
they're tapped when the end of the day
comes and they're fried that's when you
see who they really are so a big part of
the process of bringing someone from
public life to secret life is to drain
them of their resources systematically
so that you can see who they really are
because it's when they're in that low
point that you can essentially replicate
or mirror their core personality back to
them and then they let you into that
secret life
they're not you're not going to let
someone into your secret life who's
different than you so you have to mirror
back to them what you believe their true
personality to be and then they're like
if you like that let me show you this
other thing
dude that's crazy okay it's not that
different man than what we what you and
I just did off camera when we were
talking about 100 were you folding your
arms on purpose uh no because at one
point I noticed we both had our arms
folded and I was like okay are we
mirroring right now like what are we
doing no I was not I was not mirroring
you there I was not mirroring you there
um I was I'm just a little bit cold
sometimes in uh in these Studios but uh
the fact that we connected on a genuine
common interest and then from there the
I don't know if you noticed how quickly
the conversation turned into very
private conversation right and this was
me predictably responding to your
questions you were the one in control of
that conversation why did you homeschool
your kids why do you do this why did you
leave agent like you were asking the
questions I'm responding you're the one
in control questions are always being
asked by the person in control of the
conversation
I was just responding in a predictable
way because we had just connected over
something that made me bring you into my
private life
man this is really useful so when I
think about this obviously again I
understand how quickly this stuff can be
nefarious but I also understand how this
can be really useful in my marriage
first of all like understanding my wife
being able to take her perspective
understanding her perceptions uh that
stuff is incredibly incredibly helpful
and the times where I'm unable to pierce
her
um her frame of reference in my language
I'm like oh we're derailing because I
can't I can't get you to see that you
have a frame of reference on this and I
often use the David Foster Wallace quote
of this is water it's like your frame of
reference is so ever present you you
don't even realize you have one
and so the thought of there being a
dossier on me somewhere that's like got
their you know an estimate of my
Myers-Briggs and that for sure like so I
think of it not as I present a fake
version but there are I think of my
personality in slices and so every slice
that I present to people is real but I'm
only going to show my wife all of my
slices to your point that consistency is
the most difficult thing
um I I just wouldn't be able to be like
with my wife as long as I've been with
my I've been together 22 years I
wouldn't be able to be fake for that
long like at some point The Jig is going
to be up you're gonna like slip up and
so that like my wife sees all of my
slices everybody else sees some version
thereof
and what's interesting is as you
understand more and more of somebody's
slices two things happen you can you can
begin to predict their behavior and I'm
obsessed with the human brain as a
prediction engine and my whole thing
like we're we're living through a moment
where Thomas Soul has the perfect quote
to sum it up and people have this as a
paraphrase but people have exchanged
what worked for what sounds good and
this goes back to your idea of well you
can say that a truck's not heading
towards you but if a truck is heading
towards you it's heading towards you and
so there is there's what's really
happening and then there is your
perception of what's happening and
in in a desire to look at the world
through a lens of just pure acceptance
no judgment our prediction engines are
breaking and we're no longer dealing
with what I'll call is close to ground
truth as you can get you and I may
disagree a little bit on how much of the
world is objectively true
physics is true but like we don't even
understand physics fully right we're
still able to do like incredible [ __ ]
right so like we're we are existing at
some layer of abstraction all right rain
this back in because I could really
derail on that uh but in my marriage so
my ability to predict the outcome of my
behaviors as they Echo back off of my
wife or just my ability to predict her
native reaction or actions on something
is extraordinarily helpful
but I do a lot of this intuitively and
so hearing it like broken out like I
don't even know my wife's Myers Briggs I
know my own but even I don't even
remember what they mean anymore I did it
so long ago
um
when you think about this stuff and I
know you work with corporate clients
how how much do you really try to get
people to solidify this and how much of
it is just people play by ear
when it comes to how I teach others I
know that it's like uh you called me a
master earlier
and I am not a master I think the the
more you learn about something the more
you become an expert in something the
more you realize how much there is to
learn so I do not consider myself a
master of human psychology or a master
of human behavior I don't consider
myself a master really if anything
except being a masterful student of
continuing to learn more maybe
so when I teach a client my objective as
a service provider is to bring them
maximum Proficiency in the minimum
amount of time
they don't need to learn how to use this
12 different ways they hired me for one
specific purpose what I know being a
business owner is that if you can meet
someone's expectation once they'll come
back and they'll give you a second
chance to meet a different expectation
so when a corporate client comes to me
and says I want to learn how to use
these skills in my human recruiting
process right my my human resource
process
then let's do it right I don't tell I
don't make I don't distract them by
telling them how to incentivize their
High performers I don't distract them by
telling them how to improve their
relationship I don't distract them by
telling them how to improve themselves
you want to use this skill in your human
resource sourcing and Staffing
here's how we do it right and then when
they have success doing that
that's when they come back and they're
like that was amazing
how else can I use this or where else
can I use that or here's my next problem
my c-suite doesn't get along how do I
get my c-suite to get along how do I
increase communication between my
program management team and my budget
and finance team right now they bring
you specific problems and you solve
those specific problems that's how I end
up teaching it because people understand
their problems people don't necessarily
have the consistency or the
self-discipline it takes to master
multiple areas of a certain skill it's
not a luxury many of us have is there a
question so going back to your HR
example
do you think there are Universal
questions that will prompt people to
reveal themselves
in general would be my ideal but we can
limit it to HR if we have to so I would
my instinct is to say yes but I'd have
to think through what those questions
would be and how would I use time to
think about it here's the one that I use
in interviews because this is so culture
is everything to me like you might be
really smart but if you're not a good
cultural fit then we have a problem this
goes back to what I was talking about
we're living through a cultural moment
where people go they're they're not
um
they are so trying not to upset or
offend anybody that they don't realize
that people are predictable like you
were saying that they fall into certain
categories boys and girls is the easiest
one for me as somebody who writes Comics
like I just had to realize oh 12 year
old boys are into this 12 year old girls
are into this and they are wildly
Divergent desires and look that's on
average it's not everybody and of course
they're going to be some 12 year old
boys that prefer the girls comics and
vice versa
um but in an interview the question that
I ask is when was the last time you were
offended okay now that matters to me a
lot what are you hoping to discover from
that question I am trying to figure out
what their
um if they have thick skin
and very specifically what was it that
triggered you because that to me gets me
their frame of reference because I think
everybody's offended by something and
the question is what and if that if what
you give me is something small then I
know okay there's no way like you're
gonna in a business where it's it's just
data like it's either working or it's
not we're not competing against each
other we're competing against the market
and competitors and this is
running a business is the the closest
that most of us will come to a quote
unquote life and death situation where
you can literally go out of business
nobody has a job the company is now dead
uh and as the person you know that
started the company that's like real
stuff like that's really high stress and
so I need to know if in that dog fight
if I'm gonna have to worry about
overly worry about how I say things it's
a fair question
um I would
now that you've given me time to stall
and and think through it I would start
with a question that has more to do with
how they process information I would
start with a question like
how would you plan your ideal vacation
that is a good Universal question for me
because it's going to tell you
how they process information how quickly
they responded to tasking
um the time and resource demands that
we'll go into any future tasking you
give them while they're on the job
and the reason I come up with that is
there's a there's an exercise at CIA
that they put us through called the four
temperaments and they break these four
temperaments down into four different
animal categories basically
so the four animal categories are lions
foxes cheetahs and bears interesting
right tell me more so your lions are
people who have a temperament to
organize
your foxes are people who have a
temperament to create ideas to create
your cheetahs are people who have a
temperament to take action
and your bears are people who have a
temperament to build relationships so
why those animals none of those seem
self-evident I don't know other than the
cheetah the fox is also relatively
clever right I don't know why
um I was just taught and I just do what
I'm told yeah
so what ends up happening is you ask in
in a high performance team
a high performance team is a four block
team right if you can imagine a square
with four blocks inside it and each of
those blocks has is rep is
representative of one of those animal
temperaments you need each of them in a
high performing team you can have a good
team that doesn't have all four but if
you want a truly high performance team
you need all four present somebody to
organize someone to create ideas someone
to build the relationships someone to
execute
when you are looking to Source somebody
into HR you already know who you're
looking for we need bears we need
cheetahs we need Lions we need foxes you
should already know because you can run
the temperament of your existing staff
and if you want to build a high
performance team you need all four
blocks present so you just find the
missing block and then you start
sourcing for that
the questions that you want to ask you
want to ask questions that disarm the
person interviewing because guess what
every person you interview is in what
stage of their life or they're in what
of their three very Public public life I
need this job I want this job I'm super
ex I'm prepared for this job right I'm
prepared for this interview public life
so you need to disarm them if you're
going to find your way into their
private life if you want to see how they
actually behave you can't ask them
questions about the job you also can't
ask them questions that go against HR
policy you know federal policy about
what you do in an interview so you have
to ask these elicitation questions these
parallel questions and a question like
how would you plan your perfect vacation
is completely disarming to somebody so
if they say well
the first thing I would do is I would
make a list of all the places I want to
go and how much it costs to be there and
you know what the high season and low
season is now you know you're talking to
a lion
Lions want to organize right if you talk
to somebody what's your ideal vacation
oh man I'm just going to jump on the
next plane to Fiji you know you're
talking to a cheetah cheetah just wants
to take action what the hell are you
going to do when you get to Fiji I have
no idea but I'm on the next plane right
if you ask somebody what they're going
to do for their ideal vacation and they
come back and they're like you know I've
thought about this a lot and I'm either
going to Antarctica or I'm going to
Africa or I'm going to you know Saudi
Arabia because there's all this cool
stuff going on in all three places and
they've got fantastic reviews you know
you're talking to a fox
because a fox is full of ideas and if
you ask somebody where are you going on
your perfect vacation I'm going to go
anywhere my husband wants to go I'll go
wherever my best friend takes me you
know you're talking to a bear
it's all about the relationship with the
bear Nothing Else Matters right so when
you ask a one-off question you disarm
the person you already know they're
coming in armed up because they're in
their public life so you've got to
disarm them to get into their private
life and then you need to ask something
that's going to give you some insight
into how they're going to react on the
job I don't disagree with your question
about asking somebody the last time they
were offended but you run the risk of
making an assumption that isn't accurate
because you're asking them about
something that that they are publicly
their public life is going to influence
their answer significantly because they
know they're trying to get a job so they
might say oh well I don't really want to
admit that I was offended when my son
you know ate the last bowl of Cheerios
because that's going to sound childish
so I'm going to say something else
instead what can I say that's really
smart yes I hear all of that and I
haven't gotten any of the really cool
like Cheerio answers but one I know ever
asked that question in the beginning so
we're going to be deep in the interview
by the time I pull that one out but when
people speak they cannot help but reveal
themselves and so no matter what lie
they're trying to tell like even the
fact that they stumble in hem and ha is
like already information now maybe it's
because they're not easily offended and
so they're like Jesus wow I really have
to think about that but usually within
the context of the interview it becomes
pretty apparent by the time we get to
that question whether they're stalling
to buy time trying to come up with
something but then other times and I
don't know if people just are they're so
caught off guard that they'll give you a
real answer and it's like whoa uh yeah
it's pretty pretty revelatory the one
that I do along the lines of what's your
vacation is describe your closet how do
you organize your closet or what does
your closet look like right now don't
give me your ideal closet I want to know
what does your closet actually look like
and that will get like if I need
somebody that's super detail-oriented
and they're like okay my closet is
organized by color or designer or it's
like okay cool like this is somebody
that really like there's a method to the
madness
um that can be pretty useful now
bringing this into the world of
relationships
you and your wife both have a CIA
background she wasn't an operative
though so I don't know if you guys are
like constantly trying to evaluate each
other like take each other into the
perfect setting but how do you
um how do you guys deploy these knowing
that they are you have to have
psychological
um awareness Savvy too in my opinion
have a high functioning marriage how
much of this do you bring into your
relationship we bring a lot of it in uh
it's an it's silly to not bring it in we
were both we both joined CIA because we
love this stuff we independently join
the agency we independently were vetted
recruited trained and brought in we
didn't meet each other until we were in
complementary Fields inside CIA right
and then after meeting each other after
building a relationship after falling in
love after getting married then CIA
turned us into a tandem operational
couple because
it was just the perfect cover two two CI
officers married in real life can
basically operate anywhere with very
little outside support
so that was that was our Nexus that's
where we were kind of forged in fire
um now as business owners because my
wife is a co-owner of the business and
parents and spouses outside of CIA we
really lean heavily on the tools and the
language that CIA gave us to understand
human psychology probably the most
impactful
piece of everything they gave us that
plays into our marriage our relationship
now I was telling you about the three
different developmental periods right
zero to seven seven to thirteen thirteen
to twenty five and over
we have this concept of CIA that we call
the Thousand personalities
every everybody has a core personality
that under-resourced drained of all you
know additional all excess time money
and energy this is who a person is
but then you have a thousand
personalities that you can play
depending on what the like what the
scale is of your time energy and money
so this idea of a thousand personalities
has been incredibly valuable in marriage
because it makes it so that you can
be gracious and forgiving to any of the
Thousand personalities that present
themselves at any time that you are also
in one of your thousand personalities
and it really boils down to these for us
my wife and I it boils down to these
three developmental phases sometimes
she's dealing with me
and I am little Andy
Andy zero to seven
sponge Andy hurt child Andy you know my
father died before I was born so
sometimes she's talking to Andy who was
raised by just his mom and his grandma
and when she's talking to that Andy or
when that is the Andy responding to some
disaster in Life or business right she
can call it out she can say hey I'm not
trying to hurt little Andy's feelings
here right I need to talk to
adolescent Andy I need to talk to
puberty Andy right does that wind you up
in the moment like does that annoy you
or are you like oh word thank you that's
exactly what it is now because we speak
the same language because I speak to her
I speak to her little jihi right my
wife's name is G I speak to her little
jihi I speak to her teenage G I speak to
her grown-up G I speak to her c i a g he
I speak to her mom jihi I speak to her
wife jihi I speak to her business jihi
that's
and and now
we're we're not trying to point fingers
and Trigger each other because we're not
saying hey you're being a child we're
saying I need to speak to this
personality right I'm having a problem I
need this problem solved and the best
person that I know to solve this problem
is business jihi right so I understand
that you're in the middle of making a
peanut butter sandwich and I understand
that you didn't get enough sleep last
night and I understand that you're
really hoping that you get your bath
later tonight
all of those things are valid
but for this five minute conversation I
need to talk to business ghee right and
she can do the same thing to me
that's really potent uh it's interesting
how we bring these different frames of
reference you can snap yourself into
actually feeling differently like I can
I would never have used those words
um but I can snap myself out maybe
that's not quite the word I can wildly
diminish my anxiety which has always
been my struggle by I'll say the phrase
remember who you are and what I mean I'm
snapping myself into what you'd probably
refer to as business Tom or entrepreneur
Tom where it's like oh yeah remember the
things I've done what I've accomplished
all the like mental faculties that I
have at my disposal that for whatever
reason right now like don't feel
accessible it's so weird it is that I
can shift into that and I can feel small
and scared and all that and then I just
say that phrase and I'm like my chin
comes down my brow froze and I'm like oh
that's right like I know who I am and
what I can do and so
the Thousand personalities knowing that
you're in one of these different ways
you are those other things too though
brother like I'm not I'm not I'm not
diminishing your
you know remember who you are mantra but
I I want to encourage you also not to
diminish you are all the other things
too you are still the zero to seven
you're still a childhood Tom is that
useful absolutely that's useful despise
those moments and that might be why the
experience happened at all and some part
of that experience shaped who you are
now
so there's a resource in those
experiences when you carte blanche
reject them because you despise them you
use a term like that I'm sure there are
things that happen between zero and
seven that you don't despise oh I didn't
mean the age only that feeling of being
anxious and oh that feeling isn't too
weak for something hate yeah that
feeling sucks but we're talking about a
feeling we're not talking about a
rational frame of reference right we're
talking about a feeling so as an example
in marriage especially your spouse
because your spouse is the closest
person to your secret life perhaps your
spouse is in your secret life which
would be awesome if you have your wife
and your secret life
my wife is very much in my secret life
your spouse understands you
at a very deep level if she's in your
secret life or he's in your secret life
and sometimes they suspect that what
they're dealing with is some sort of
memory trauma Behavior conditioning that
happened when you were a child
zero to seven so they they get the
benefit of being able to call that out
if that's what's happening or if they
suspect that's what's happening when you
engage in that kind of openness and say
this is what I was like as a kid for me
I was always competing for attention my
mom's attention because my mom was a
single mom
she was working two jobs sometimes three
she was going to school I spent a lot of
time with my grandma all I wanted was
mom because what does every child under
the age of seven want mom they say they
want dad sometimes but they want mom
they want that nurturing loving maternal
figure and I didn't have that very often
so I learned very young that I had to
compete to get Mom's attention and that
competing to get Mom's negative
attention was not a good way of doing it
so acting out was not productive instead
I had to excel I had to exceed I had to
be super helpful around the house I had
to be super independent if I could make
myself if I could get up at six o'clock
in the morning on Saturdays I could
watch my cartoons pour a bowl of cereal
be awake and be alert and be fed by 6 30
in the morning when my mom woke up and
she'd be like Andrew
did you feed yourself
good job and what are you watching and
let me sit with you and then I got Mom's
attention
so my wife knows that when I'm showing
that attention-seeking behavior to her
to clients to whatever else she knows
that it's going to drain my resources
very quickly so she'll call it out
she'll be like hey is this little Andy
trying to seek attention
because he sees some sort of opportunity
or is this business Andy cultivating a
client with Biz Dev or whatever and then
I can look back and say oh yeah it's a
great call girl like if I'm putting this
much energy into a client it better be
the right client if I'm putting this
much energy into whatever some the the
neighborhood watch Parent
then it better be for a good reason
because I'm going to drain resources
when I drain those resources who's going
to pay the penalty my wife my kids my
staff so it's really useful to me to
have her be able to communicate to me in
those terms and for me to understand
that there are advantages that come from
zero to seven seven to thirteen I mean
my worst years of my life were from 13
to 25 I was I mean those were hard
horrible years most people those are
hard horrible years right is there
something specific
uh I I was in the military I should have
never been in the military like ROTC I
was an Air Force Academy graduate so um
so 13 to 14 right when I was going into
puberty my dad was my stepdad was a
Vietnam vet and was lived we ran he ran
a very military household as it related
to me the stepson so part of me was
always prepared to go into the military
because my dad told me right you're out
of the house at 18. you're either going
in the military or getting a job you're
not going to college because we don't
have any money for you to go to college
so that was always my rubric right I'm
going to get a job and I'm or I'm going
to go into the military but I don't have
a home
April 18th the day after I turned 18. I
no longer have a home and my dad made it
very clear like this is how it's going
to work were you still in high school I
was my senior year 18 and 18 I was going
to I was going to graduate in May and
April was my birthday so you didn't even
get to finish high school so I'm sure
that they would have I got to finish
high school and but I needed a plan
right right like I had to demonstrate
that I had a plan it wasn't like I was
going to graduate high school and be
able to stay at home right and I kind of
knew that so you know back up 1617 I'm
making this plan for when I turn 18
because I've been conditioned by my
stepdad since I was like 12. you're out
of the house at 18. and college is not
an option so I happen to find that a
military school the Air Force Academy is
a full ride scholarship to a university
and it's also in the military so what is
little Andy zero to seven Andy thinking
well maybe I'll mak