Kind: captions
Language: en
in my mind I have to tap everybody else
winning is not enough
the following is a conversation with
hajir Gracie widely considered to be the
greatest Jiu Jitsu competitor of all
time this is the Lex Friedman podcast to
support it please check out our sponsors
in the description and now to your
friends here's hodger Gracie
let's start with possibly the greatest
match in Jiu Jitsu history your second
match against buchesha let's go through
the details let's go through the whole
thing so the walk leading up to it you
always do this walk it's epic walk you
post on Instagram Hanzo posted on
Instagram yeah this calm walk towards
the mat well let's go to that match in
particular what was going through your
mind you've been away from competition
facing probably one of the greatest and
at that time many people consider the
greatest Jiu Jitsu competitor of all
time in bachatcha uh here's the old man
the Old Timer getting back out there
what were you thinking yeah I think
that's the first time
since probably I got my black belt that
I was in the favor to walk into a fight
I have to say like a lot of people
thought consider him the favorite
I mean
understandable you know I was out of
competition for a while he was just
winning everything
so you know saying about the walk like
for me
you know the five stars way before the
referees say go you know it's uh is all
the focus on concentration
that I think is very important for me to
start before like you know I almost walk
blind to the Met many times I passed
like great friends and I couldn't see
anyone you know they're trying to talk
to you and I'm like I'm 100 focused on
my opponent already even thought that I
cannot even see him in front of me so I
think that's what me was always uh very
important to try to clear my mind out
from everything are you visualizing the
opponent I'm not just clearing not at
that time is there what's what's in your
head is it like a calm River with birds
chirping what it's flank just blank
Darkness yeah Darkness okay and that's
what we see in that calmness it's just
blankness how hard is it to achieve that
blankness it's difficult to say because
I think I don't remember when I'll say
probably as a black belt I try to
Focus like that not to think because
it's probably something you learn is the
more you think the more nervous you get
and there's nothing that you're gonna
gain by thinking of the fight or the
possibilities what you know what you can
do what can go wrong what can go right
because it's unpredictable you have
absolutely no idea it's impossible to
predict the fight and you discover that
if you just let those nervous feelings
go and empty your mind it actually is
pretty effective it is it makes you feel
better it's you know you kind of control
your emotion control the adrenaline on
your body up to a level
so it absolutely helps you you know
focus in the fight I've learned that in
Jiu Jitsu and in general in life that
whenever something feels really shitty
you can just like take that thought and
not think about it yeah like I do that
like on long runs or like a fast run or
yeah in Jiu Jitsu especially not getting
older out of shape like that feeling of
exhaustion well you can always get to
the feeling of exhaustion you could just
not think about it yeah not think about
being exhausted yeah just and that's
somehow it relaxes you I think maybe in
the face of exhaustion all the fears
start to creep in maybe your muscles
tighten up I don't know this is for the
uh the amateur suggested person
but it's kind of funny how you can just
take that thought and let go of it so
you get as a black belt competitor you
get used to you get good at letting go
of any thoughts yeah for Innovation to
exhaustion is I mean that's not the good
example of it it's
you know there's a lot of times in the
fight you're getting tired and you're
getting pretty tired
so it's like the last scene you want to
think of it is how tight you are it
doesn't matter because it doesn't but
you're going to quit I mean it doesn't
matter yes how tall you are it's yeah
there's no value thinking about it
there's no value it's you just have to
go through it so when you're like uh
you know many minutes into the match and
you're slowly moving as you sometimes do
tying your belt catching your breath
you're not thinking about anything
you're trying to let go of thinking I'm
trying to like to save
everything to the file like nothing goes
to waste it's you know every move
unnecessary this is just going to make
you more tired or it's going to take
something out of you like you know I try
to calculate every single Move I Make
save as much energy as I can so I can
fully you know be focused 100 in the
fight with no way especially energy wise
and that's instinctual like uh
minimizing the amount of moves you're
not like
explicitly thinking should I do this or
not it's just just don't move unless
it's absolutely required yeah because
fight these you you cannot really
there's not really time to think much
you know it's like it's just your
instincts are playing it's like it's
you know you already have your you know
your weapons let's say you know you did
the things that you do at is just you
wait for the perfect moment the beauty
of it is you know there's the right
moment to everything if you feel one
second too late it doesn't work no you
get messy so it's you know you're trying
to catch that moment
that's his you know and for that you
have to be fully focused in what you're
doing because one second is you out it
won't work but you're you're not exactly
known as somebody that moves super
quickly so the so the moment
it's not about how quickly you move it's
about uh the right moment yeah yeah it's
not
like it's speed
it's not like you have to move the
spirit of life it's it's the move itself
at that precise moment it doesn't have
to be super fast because your opponent's
not moving so perfect you know so it's
it's a combination of moving between you
and him I mean the same thing happens in
in Judo and the movement can be really
small yeah it's just Jude is a is a bit
more explosiveness you know she's the
moves are slightly faster so it did no
it does require a bit more explosiveness
in Judo but even just the right timing
for an off balance yeah
it's still a little tough yeah yeah it's
not that they're you know moving the
speed is not going to count that much
yeah it's the timing that you initiate
that move you see that with foot sweeps
there's nothing more beautiful than uh
like uh Olympic level athletes going at
it in the Olympics and a person
and it's just and you see
one man's life flashed before his eyes
and realized like I'm supposed to be the
top three person in the world that I
just find they don't they have this look
on their face like I don't know what
just happened it's beautiful to see you
don't see that I guess you see that
unboxing Knockouts and stuff like that
you don't know what the hell just
happened yeah is it that precise moment
of movement that you get caught like is
is that one Split Second
that's it do you get that in Jiu Jitsu
at all because Judo has
because of the explosiveness because of
the point scoring system that
incentivizes these giant throws
um has these moments where everything
just turns on a single moment do you
have that in Jiu Jitsu too not really
because Dennis points is you get like
you know two points so he's
because I think regarding the submission
it's not just one precise movement that
changed everything I think Judo is the
takedown that counts as a submission
like keep on fight over Jujitsu don't
have that
so you will you will score points but I
think in terms of submission you need to
get to uh in a dominant position first
and then the submission will come slowly
it's a process yeah
okay let's go back to that guy with his
mind so actually in the weeks leading up
to it in the days and the hours in the
minutes is there some fear in you
leading up to this
I mean I'm not going to say you know
that I'm fearless because everybody
fears something you know
the fear is there but it's like how much
you like that controlled you I think I
was a lot more confident than fearful
that for sure walk into that fight like
I I was pretty confident that yeah I
could beat him was the source of that
confidence
my belief going on on me this okay I can
take the word
you can take anyone in the world but is
there specific strategic
like uh you know talking to Donahue
he believes that there's no such thing
as confidence like or rather the way you
get confidence is through data
like that you have proven yourself
effective
uh in previous situations but with
buchacha
you don't you don't have much data it
was a very the first time you faced them
was a very tough
that was also one of the greatest
matches of all time it was very tough so
doesn't that creep in like that doubt
because you know you don't have enough
data to be confident based on
uh
yeah I mean
okay if I never have fought before you
know somebody walked into a fight with
someone like that then would I be that
confidence I mean probably no you know
so that history of what you know what
we've been doing or been achieving those
gives you confidence if that was my
first fight ever
I wouldn't probably I wouldn't be that
much but the time off
uh it doesn't matter it doesn't matter
doesn't matter you don't have the fear
or the actual physical experience the
psychological experience of being Rusty
of being honest that will come out on
training
so you okay so you simulate some aspect
of that yeah I mean the trainer will
tell you how you are okay did you
increase the intensity of the training
leading up to this yeah I mean I've
trained I train normal let's say
compared to the first fight the second
was a lot more confidence because you
know like I said on training the
training for the first fight they were
terrible
so what do you mean I think I was
focusing MMA for a while for a couple
months and I wasn't really focusing the
ghee and you know by the time I accept
the fight didn't start training
like all my responses on training were
off like all my training partners that I
used to train with that I destroyed I
mean now they like they're beating me
you know it's like I cannot beat them
the way I I was used to but you know so
I knew it was something was not right
for the first fight
but then it's like is it you know no
points is submission or Draw so yeah for
people who don't know it was the mother
Morris which is a 20 minute match
submission only so there's no the winner
is determined only by submission
otherwise it's the draw so physically I
was I wasn't myself on that fight I was
tired you know my body wasn't responding
anyway so that so the conflict was
different from the first the second I
think I was confident enough that I
wouldn't get tapped out on the first
that I was still gonna fight because he
has to tap me out to beat me and I trust
on my defense I'm confident enough for
my defense that he will not top me out
but in terms of
winning you know walking to the second
fight I was a lot more confident
what can you say about that feeling when
something's not right it's not a thing
that breaks people these three breaks
it's weird like people crack they give
up you know this is is a big test
because it's it's like being
really tired it's the same thing it's
like a lot of people crack because they
just feel they cannot give in more
there's not having nothing more to give
so they just like give up it's too hard
so what do you do just again take the
thoughts out there's no giving up I mean
I don't mind I don't care like you
you're just giving up it's not enough
it's not that's always the way you
thought yeah about Jiu Jitsu yeah I I'm
never gave up I mean I tapped it's you
know not giving up it's not not typing
that's just stupid especially you know
doing training like it's I get caught I
tap I've never ever
hurt myself by not tapping I get you get
angry you know it's train hard you know
improve make it make yourself better
you'll go caught accept that you made a
mistake give up tap then try harder so
you know the not tapping it's you're
sacrificing your body and you know
you'll never be the same like if you let
your elbow popped the air will never
ever be the same ever you let yourself
go to sleep your resistant drops so this
everybody has a has a limit of
resistance until they you know to resist
a choke before you pass out the moment
that you you you go to sleep that
resistance will dropped that's why I've
never heard anyone say yeah that's
awesome so that's true so tap this so
that's the reason because people usually
say it's no you can somebody is the same
or you're getting knocked out you get
knocked out the first time your
resistant dropped your drug weak gets
weaker so just for the record I've never
gone to sleep again
which uh means my resistance is high
right I don't know it must be oh your
defense is pretty good I I don't know
about that no no I would
um because it doesn't make sense to me
or maybe
in my case I think my understanding of
when I'm screwed is pretty good yeah
like there's no you're not in trouble
yeah one of the things I regret the most
about my Jiu Jitsu journey is not having
given enough time to um
being in really bad positions like the
better I got I think the less I started
being in bad positions
that's like the that is how you train
yeah because you should just Spa When
You Spa like it's difficult to to be in
bad positions a lot and you train with
better people but I mean let's say five
six minute rolls how long you're going
to be in a really bad position not long
right so you don't really have time to
develop
that's why people they don't
you know they don't train be in bad
positions because you have to stop there
over and over again
to be used to it yeah or put yourself
there I just didn't have that mindset I
think I think you start I mean part of
the fun of jiu jitsu's as you get better
and better you have certain people you
go with you have these puzzles that
you've figured out that you're playing
very specific details you're working out
you're trying to improve your main
like techniques and so on but yeah just
the percentage of time you spend being
submitted or being or trying even going
against like Laura ranks trying to
escape basic submissions is low I I
don't know if that's true for most
people probably is right most people
have very bad defense yeah because they
don't allow themselves to be there
because
I mean who wants to get tapped because
you will until you you know to work on
your defense of course you're gonna get
tap or you know you're not gonna Escape
you're gonna struggle to escape
so people they don't want to be there
I regret it most because of the effect
it clearly had and how I competed
it it was it was clear that my
competition was was constantly driven by
a conservative thinking
like don't take risks I think because of
a weak defense honestly and I think uh a
lot of the any of the fear like uh for
example exhaustion was accompanied by
fear because of weak defense I think if
I were to psychoanalyze myself and I
regretted it I regret it a lot
um
but speaking of which
I don't think anyone's ever submitted
you in competition so you're
well I was a juvenile yes
yes so so when you were a young person
yeah six is that still haunt you I know
first I was winning that fight by a
large
I mean I think by six points or four
something like that but I was like I was
going to remember it though huh by the
details
again he never competed again
hi whoever you are please uh let's let's
do a podcast
uh no but what do you attribute to that
too you're saying you're confident
you're confident that
the top of the world the number one
puchesha would not submit you
um so where is that confidence grounded
and what do you attribute the fact that
nobody was able to submit you
first you come down training you know I
train
a lot bad position like my defense is
good because I I practice over and over
again as much as I practice all my
offenses position
so it's you know you have to train both
equally it's not just being a good
position you have to be in bed
so I think that's a very strong part of
my game
you know to be a complete fighter you
know at least a complete martial artist
you have to be good in every single
position every single one those that
you're not you have a weakness
so it's you know to be complete you
should have no weakness
so that was always my you know I was
always very uh particular on that like
it's one of my weakness where am I what
I don't feel good at it if you put me in
a position to a struggle how to escape
how do I get out everything any
submission locked Penny position you
know back mount everything it's doesn't
matter which position up I practice over
and over again so that when I if I get
there in a fighting situation I will
know how to get out at least I'll have a
direction you know I would know this is
my way up
do you practice both escaping the bad
position and the transition
into the bad position avoiding it
because that's how it happens you know
Jiu Jitsu you start in a neutral
position
now the transition then it then becomes
the fight itself you see it's being
there is the most important is when
you're there
then you have to know how to get out
that's your weakness how I either
stopping the person getting that
something different they're two
different things it's you you either you
practice one or the other
so but both are important I guess but
the the stopping the person is easier to
practice because that comes naturally in
training yeah what was uh the actual
process like what was your biggest
weakness throughout your like you just
remembering what was annoying to you to
figure out uh I mean outside control is
always is the bottom of second bottom
it's regardless how much you you
practice it's not that very easy you'll
never be easy
but it's so annoying it makes no sense
yeah someone pins you down this doesn't
want to move much he's a big and strong
guy regardless of who is not going to be
to escape so some situations are just
hard it must be the sorry to interrupt
I'm interrupting hydrogracies but
but you just made me realize
if you're really good if you're if
you're going against like the perfect
Jiu Jitsu competitor
probably side control might be one of
the hardest positions is that the
hardest position to escape is one of
them if the person doesn't want to
progress It's concerned about it yeah
like the best pinners in the world I
mean partially because I've Just Seen
Judo people that know how to pin yeah
they scrape this I control is a
nightmare it's a nightmare doesn't
matter how much you practice yeah it's a
nightmare
and it's also just frustrating uh I
think I guess it is also frustrating
because a lot of people in that position
will be about maintaining control not
progressing yeah and usually people in
their mouth and back control are usually
trying to progress towards a submission
which opens up opportunities for escape
so what's the actual process
of
just time and time again putting
yourself inside a bottom side control
yeah over and over again starting that
escape back Escape get back
if you mount you get back any situation
outside that stop start again stop start
again
and it has to be I'll say five minutes
because it's the repetition that will
teach you you know if you train like
three minutes on top
you have time to you know one thing and
then time up is the right position there
over and over again you know when you
try to say move over and over again then
you see what can go wrong
and is that understanding the details of
the movement are actually doing the
movement and feeling it it's it's both
first you have to understand the
movement and then practice
but
most important thing is defense
Escape coming second
because if you know he's attacking you
the one thing is if he's not trying to
submit you but the other one if it is
let's say if a person is very good has a
very good attack
the first thing is defense
not just Cape you can expose yourself to
a even worse position because that is is
very risky when you're trying to escape
you'll always expose yourself to a worse
position
so avoiding that it's you know first is
defense not getting caught and then when
you're Skyping don't be no worse
position so defense uh Engineers when
you're wearing a ghee what does defense
entail is it mostly grips is it mostly
the positioning of your hips and legs is
is everything together because it's a
whole body movement it's you know it's
constantly moving off your arms legs
body it's it they you know they they
have to everything works together
going back to the mind of that guy uh so
confident
no fear at this point
is there a bit of ego in there too yes
like I say no I'm not gonna say I'm
fearful I'm fearless of course This
concerns
that fight I would have to say was
probably the fight that I got nervous
the most walking in because I knew what
that meant that fight I mean everything
for me all my legacy was on the line
because
you thought I lost that fight though
forever will be number two yeah forever
and I mean bushesh is is a great great
guy great competitor judicious is very
good but I'm better than him I knew that
it's like he's competing non-stop with
them he's uh he's a great competitor you
know taking nothing out of him he's
super tough very very tough very good
it's probably the best competitor
introducer and he won 13 times the world
championship I won 10. so as a
competitor you know he has more titles
than I do
so but in terms of you know analyzing
the game I consider technically better
than him
so knowing all that everything that I
build all my legacy it's
if I was writing on this match if I lose
this fight I'm forever number two
and none of that is going going through
your mind I know I knew I mean it's not
at that moment that I I already knew
that I remember just before you know the
curtains open I'm standing in before
they call my name and I mean my legs
were like
I feel the adrenaline kicking on my legs
and I'm like
you know I'm hitting the legs I'm like
wake up you know get off get adrenaline
off me you know
so it's it was it was intense it was
intense and this was in Rio that was
Unreal so
my hometown so this is I mean and you
know Rio is is not exactly known for its
calmness in its fans so this is like wow
wherever they hosted the Olympics
the year before yeah so this is like
I mean this like the whole basically
martial arts Community is watching this
stuff like
yeah I mean is there some uh was henzo
there yeah yeah so people are just I
mean there's attention it's also
I mean I don't know if you felt that in
part but you're also fighting for the
Gracie name yeah
in the in our hometown the greatest
where the Gracie really is crazy
competitor of all time arguably in the
hometown
yeah I mean okay all my family my best
friends my friends everybody watching
everybody there there was a lot of
pressure a lot
see and then
were you thinking that you would be able
to submit him no it's at that point like
I don't predict how the fight will go
that I never did because it is
unpredictable it's I never tried to set
any strategy for any fight I think oh
okay that I did but that was the only
time that I said any strategy into a
fight there was a 15 minutes fight that
and for I said first five minutes I'm
gonna play defense he's bigger stronger
younger I don't want to play his game
and I know he comes in very fast every
single fight he had you know he comes
very aggressive
so my strategy walk into the fight let's
say five minutes I'm gonna play defense
I'm not gonna try to attack I'm not
gonna try to match his space
I already expected you know maybe I'm
gonna start losing the fight because you
know if he comes in there's a risk of me
maybe getting takedown you know
something happened
I'm like I'm gonna stick to the game
plan
five minutes I'm gonna start picking up
the pace because then it's 10 minutes to
go which 10 minutes a long fight so I
don't need to stop fast but I'm gonna
stop being more aggressive and then
you know try to take him down up who God
you know but by then I'm like that's as
far as strategy goes
there's no specific uh stay on the feet
were you comfortable being both bottom
and top and this yeah strategic I'm
always comfortable being borrowed top I
prefer to be on top because
being in the bottom the personal topic
takes the pace of the fight because he's
on top over you so I always prefer to be
on top because I can dictate the pace I
can Implement my own pace
and being the bottom they can Slow Me
Down
so it's harder so if I can choose I will
always be on top
but I think by then I was like it's
you know five minutes hit it I'm like
he's pretty big and strong I'm gonna
spend a lot of energy taking him down
I forgot how did it how did it feel
so here you're stepping in by the way
puzzle masks this is old school as old
school as it gets
so calm and relaxed here for people just
listening we're watching the early
minutes of the match yeah so just
feeling it out he seems pretty calm too
he must be nervous too I wonder how do
you ever talk to him you guys are
friends yeah yeah we're friends did he
ever say how nervous he was no we never
spoke about that fight no no
he probably lays uh late at night
thinking about it maybe I don't know
that SOB yeah I mean so you see the
first five minutes no he kept
I knew what he was going to do in my
study his game his stand-up is most
basic is basic in takedowns uh leg
attacks double leg so you go single
double and he charges in that is pretty
much his
stand-up game so you try you get you get
a grip yeah that we got penalized
so do you like to uh use the
do you like to post with your left you
have a right foot forward usually you're
righty right I'm ready but I know he
wants my leg so I'm I'm playing my
stance just because of this game
oh you know all my grips are that the
first five minutes was to kind of try to
neutralize his attacks so he wants to
get your left leg Yeah
uh yeah right there yeah so how hard is
that to stop that I mean he felt pretty
strong
so I'm you know I'm pushing the head
down trying to play with his balance
yeah if if you if you see it there was a
pause
go back there he charged in
there's a pause me standing in front of
him yeah I did that on purpose
what do you mean
just uh it's just in front of him
because you know he tried yeah and I'm
like you fail I'm here
there's a
okay so you could feel the frustrations
I could feel his frustrated his
frustration not be able to take me down
okay so now and this is just
psychological battles and you see me
walking straight into the middle of the
mat and he's circling out yeah see I'm
going very slow I'm recovering and he's
Computing like shit yeah okay it's
because he just made a you know effort
trying to take me down he needs to
recover
and I mean you you need to recover the
other guys there waiting for you yeah
enjoy do I go for another takedown
because this one failed yeah do I need
to recalculate the strategy yeah and he
kept trying over and over again and keep
failing I think that frustrated him a
lot on that fight I fell
I felt him kind of slowing down suddenly
because he was getting nowhere
so we're five minutes in yeah he keeps
so you never got that takedown in the in
the early no
let's see so at this point do you pull
guard yeah okay so
that's when I fell
like he's he's
mentally he's he's not he's worried now
did you try to pull close guard here no
I knew he was going to bring Danny in
okay because that's the defense against
pulling closed guard yeah
but I like that
what he I like people bringing the knee
between my legs
because see I'm gonna close my guard
even with this lagging okay he is he's
he's stopping the club well this is this
is awkward but yeah I was holding his
arm that's why he felt he had no hand to
post got it
but still it puts a leg in but you're
able to close your guard around if
you're okay with that I do that really
well at three people from that position
a lot what's the sweep I guess just
pushed okay it's just a pledge to your
left side yeah okay because he has no oh
it's almost like uh you mean you're
basically around his back a little bit
like he knew that like I swipe a lot of
people with that sweep so you you see he
kept leaning to his left to my right
yeah so I want to push them to my left
so you see him leaning over to my right
a lot what's the right answer for him to
like roll or something no I mean he's
stuck he does not really he's stuck
there but the one thing he did he kept
off me completely see that he's leaning
yeah true like he's too afraid of my
attack now because he that you know he
should lean on me yeah you know you
should bring the fight to me so when I
fail him you know I I knew he was like
he's too worried about my attacks now oh
yeah that's right so he can't yeah he
comes back to the center he has no like
so he's not engaging at that time he's a
hundred percent just defending so I felt
that I'm like he doesn't want to engage
and he's looking I knew at that point he
wants my foot because our first fight I
had this like the same position I wasn't
holding his arm and he went to attack my
foot which he did you know he got into
hold or what okay yeah so I know he's
looking at my foot which foot sorry the
left my right yeah my right foot okay
so I'm hoping he's hiding it I'm holding
his arm and now you're going to the back
it's an arm drag type of thing so the
moment that I came off now I'm here I'm
holding his arm so he cannot come up so
he's you know I'm holding his left arm
so he cannot post a hand on the floor
and come up and he's holding it right to
try to get you yeah
basically to prevent you from attacking
yeah
oh that's interesting and he rolls yeah
he tried to he tried to get me off
balance so see now I'm switching I
switched the grip on his arm so I can
free my left arm
can I ask you a question like uh
was there a chance he sweeps you here I
mean there's always a chance but very
bad yeah but see my left arm is free uh
so you can post yeah
why was your left arm free oh cause
you're using it you got it got it
okay
and now I tried the hook now you will
see
yeah but what I knew
his Hispanic
because
he did a move that he completely opened
himself up like I'm holding his left arm
so by holding the arm
his that prevents him from defending the
hook on that side because his arm is
being hauled across so their arm cannot
block the hook and
I mean the hook with your left leg Yeah
okay so you see when he come up but I
would say I mean that's my guess but
bushesh is
he's a big guy you know he's like 110
kilos 112 something like that which is
245 yeah all right yeah so what were you
at the time uh less 220 yeah 220. a nice
slim 100 kilo okay
so
it hits
his defense are not amazing he's good
but you know he's not known to have
amazing defense so by being the big guy
in the room when you train you used to
get out of situation because of your
size you shake people off you know it's
it's because of your size you shake them
off you get off some bad positions you
can I mean I could feel on the first
fight I'm side control you know
something he explode out so you know you
I've seen him doing that a few of his
fights no you're not in the most
technical way just I'm getting out and
he did because of his size
so and he did the same thing like he
tried to stood up when I'm on his back
did he completely open up the hooks he
will see the next move his head gonna
come up and he's gonna try to get off
the floor so basically come up shake you
off kind of energy there was no
difference for the hooks I put both
hooks in
straight away
his arms yeah I'm off balance yeah see I
didn't bring him up he came up yeah and
now
I'm attacking his neck and he's worried
about the hooks
that's fatal mistake that's like defense
always come first remember what I just
said now the defense first Escape second
so he's not worried more about the
points than his neck
so it was like a a progression of
mistakes that's why I think he did he go
frustrated when he couldn't take me down
and then when I pulled God he was he was
he was frustrated that the fight wasn't
going his way you know he's very good
about taking down he tried over and over
again for five minutes and here he was
frustrated about the hooks so he's like
it's almost like the frustration things
like no no these folks shouldn't be here
like I pull God on the grips that I want
he's not comfortable inside my God he's
not in a position that he wants to be
he's over leaning to his left you know
to to to not he's not engaging or trying
to pass he's trying to get the foot but
his arm is trapped he's gonna get
nowhere
and then when I swapped him thundered
his words are collapsing you know he
couldn't take me down I pull God I'm
swept him he tried to roll me over no
you didn't get me anywhere the first
movement that he tried to escape I'm on
his back I mean now he's lost yeah
that if you just go back to him standing
up
see both who goes in no defense like
there was nothing on the way of those
hooks
coming up you're you're high enough on
him to where the weight was just
probably immense
it just felt too heavy man you got it
you already got you're already you're
already going for the choke huh of
course there's no time to lose
look at that yeah so you're not like
worried I'm gonna get shaken off you're
going for the trip okay no shaking me
off I'm on your back now
we're in this together and your your
right hand is opening up the lapel my
right hand is holding his arm
sorry yeah like you're holding the
sleeve but holding the sleeve and I'm
already going for the neck
because it's timing at which point do
you let go of the sleeve and open up
help with the power do you not need it
no I did that but first I want to try to
make a grip like then I need to
establish control Before I Let Go his
own got it
so I kept holding that a bit longer and
then when I fell okay I have a good
control over the back then I Let Go
do you okay so you have like a light
grip on his lapel but you're thinking
you need I need to adjust that you need
to adjust it you're like holding it
there and you're thinking okay at some
point I need to adjust all I need all I
want is to get under his chin then I
noticed I mean now I can't go for it
because if it's over there's no choke
right the wrist needs to be on the
that's just not right okay it's not
right or it doesn't work it both it's
not writing doesn't work I mean would
you tap the choke on your chin no just
pressure
have you you heard but it's not going to
choke you out I don't know I don't know
I'm not let me argue this I love this
arguing with Roger great thing about
jokes this is great okay like clock joke
it was always interesting to me because
in Judo it's illegal to have the gear on
them
and face and so it was kind of
liberating for me to be allowed to have
our gear on the face no it's just
liberating no you don't have to worry
about it like of course it's more
effective to go under the chin but I'm
surprised just because the amount of
pressure like it's all about how much
you can take it you can take a lot but
it feels like no it doesn't feel
comfortable I mean sometimes on your
mouth it cuts your mouth now you're
bleeding you feel horrible no but it
feels that's not the feeling the feeling
it might not be a joke but the feeling
like like it's a pressure that
everything's just closing in but but it
doesn't take you anywhere like you're
not gonna go to sleep you might not go
to sleep so it's just pressure
yes so pressure he hurts is
uncomfortable but it it is not going to
break your face and it's not going to
put you to sleep so if I don't get the
neck I don't go for the kill
I'm like I'm I'm holding the the his
collar you know my my wrist is almost
under it's you know I I'm trying to kind
of dig in if if I can't dig in then I
will adjust the call but first I need to
dig in I dig in first and adjust can you
do all that with one hand or no I did
so you can tighten the choke with just
one hand no I need the second one to
open the level but you're like digging
in with one I'm digging it under the
chin yeah this is under now I need to go
deeper but that the going deeper
requires a second hand it does okay
it does and but that requires you
letting go of the other hand yeah I have
to let go eventually
yeah I see all right yeah well that's
over yeah because I'm already under his
like the first hand got under the chin
do you need the a hand on the second
level yeah of course otherwise he turns
and he's out that's the control of the
Turning versus the tightening of the
choke yeah he does both it helps tighten
the collar and stop the person rolling
out
will you
feeling pretty good about this position
yes
I just felt it's getting tighter tighter
tighter tighter because he wasn't super
tight from the beginning he wasn't like
the perfect joke so we're still I mean I
knew it was like it's very close to the
end but you know he was I still need the
just that was still the risk of maybe
escaping is it possible for his head to
slip up yeah is it possible yes but I'm
closing that Gap
yeah
and here
what does that feel like relief relief
like
awesome amazing
somebody on Reddit ask ask him about the
Cross grip he used to sweep followed
with the genius grips which when
buchesha was inverted did you use a
cross curve when you sweep did you I
guess the Cross grip in the arm that
must be oh that's the cross group okay
uh what's the genius behind that or was
that just the uh do you like that kind
of that kind of grip yeah because I
always like close guard and no one wants
to be in anyone's close card right it's
open God is the step to pass
so everybody when you try to close the
guide they bring them in the middle like
if you if if you're not standing if
you're lower on the ground and the open
guard if you're close to me you need
that knee between so it's a must that's
when I start developing the attack you
know I managed to have long legs to
close my legs around people even with
that and then I just developed that
sweep when did you start developing that
like I don't remember when but I would
say before black belt
Okay so
your answer to that is not to figure out
how to prevent them from putting the
knee in
is there an answer to that no
the good guys will always no you can't
remove that leg out of the way that's
not possible well maybe off balance them
enough to wear this now no okay I mean
you you can try but like it's hard you
know he's kind of honestly you'll sweep
them
right so that means gonna so you're
gonna have to say it's not full sweep
yeah
because that's is the is extremely
common to have that I mean I if if I'm
on your guard open guard you know if you
have your legs you've found between both
of your legs in the open guard mind you
will be between your legs because it's a
must my knee cannot be on the floor
sometimes I was there what did he tell
you before
I think just motivate you I think that's
hands will always do that fantastically
well to motivate me like before I fight
a match
I think that you know the confidence you
know he's
you know his energy being around you
it's I think that's the is the great
thing to have hands on your corner it is
the motivation that he gives you what
did you learn about Jiu Jitsu in life
from Hanzo Gracie we got to hang out
with him in Vegas a little bit he's a
character he's one of the uh historic
coaches and Jiu Jitsu competitors but
also Personalities in the martial arts
world in in the world in general there's
very few like them hands was a fantastic
person it's it's you know what I've
learned most from him is like it's you
know you can't take any challenge it's
you know it doesn't matter when where
yeah well you know who it's you know you
have to be ready and
you know with that war spirit that he
has he you know he always took any
challenge
Ready or Not Ready
was it you that said it or he said it
where
uh not until
you go in
you know to do something difficult to
discover the strength that you have so
like
like if you really think about it
you might think that you don't you're
not good enough you don't have the
strength to take on something difficult
I fully agreed I think we are measure
not when we're on the strongest but when
we are on the weakest
that's when we truly measure ourselves
or character who we are not we're in a
position of power
or when our position of weakness have
you surprised yourself like how damn
good you are
like is this is this really how good I
am in this situation where in retrospect
you might think how the hell was able to
accomplish this not
how good I am because
otherwise I wouldn't be there
so you know being there in the first
place it's it's already not a great
thing but I say you know I've every
single time I found myself there I was
super proud that I've never cracked
like I've never gave up ever any second
any fight never never been broken in
competition never even it's not about
winning or losing is about you giving up
I've never doubt myself I always fought
to the very end always that I'm most
proud of
because there was moments you know it's
you're in a terrible position you know
mainly like there was moments that I was
super tired but like exhaustive tired
when and it was easy to give up like I
had nothing more to give
but I pushed I took
energy out of my soul I would have to
say because when my body had zero my you
know my spirit my soul
pull it out
is that in part just not allowing
yourself to have um
to have to ever ever quit yeah
I have uh one other thing I regret I
remember like a blue belt match
I remember I'm not gonna say who it was
against but uh I remember just being
extremely exhausted
and um just constantly fighting a guy
was really good Mount really good guard
passing and I just remember
um him passing my guard
eventually it was just like a finals of
one of the ibgf tournaments
and then
right away going to mount
and just
I don't know I the the level of
frustration I mean I quit at that point
I said I remember that still like I it's
not about losing winning or losing but I
just remember I was like like I was like
teary-eyed frustrated and then I knew
there was a lot of fights still left
even in there somewhere and I I quit and
I regret that to this day because uh I
think the reason I regret that is
because it gave me an option
to to now quit in every other aspect of
life like that this is an option yeah it
is it sucks
yeah it teaches you you know it makes us
stronger it's actually made you stronger
uh yeah it makes you stronger that you
did that to learn that don't do that
again
um but still like you said just going to
sleep in training
I do think it made me weaker it did make
me weaker in the rest of my life too
that those you know I've quit a few
times in my life on small things and you
realize okay it's not that big of a deal
it's fine
like who cares
um but that what you learn over time is
that voice always comes there like uh uh
obviously maybe it does for you too even
at the highest level of like it's not
that big of a deal like it's okay to
quit here like it makes sense I really
would understand
um
you know in some sense like you're uh
you know many people would say you're
past your Prime in this match with the
procession like it makes sense you've
been focusing on MMA makes sense yeah it
makes sense to lose yeah I don't know
that that's a weird voice and in some
sense uh it's that voice and a voice
that says like why are you doing this
like this is silly that doesn't make any
sense just just stop just stop just stop
and uh shutting that voice down and
never allowing yourself to quit that's a
really powerful thing like everybody
I've met
everybody that's successful
um
yeah down to the even Engineers CEOs
Elon Musk just never quitting
like when everybody around you it says
quit never quitting it's weird I don't
know what that is might be genetic it
might be like using the stubbornness to
just never allow yourself to um
develop that it's basically developing a
calluses to that voice that tries to
tell you to quit you never quit huh what
would you attribute that to
it's like how much you want to get to
the destination you chose like you know
it's how badly when I get there
it's if you quit you're never gonna get
there and you always wanted to I always
wanted
is there some thing you remember from
that match some things that happened
before and after that stand out to you
just since in Rio yeah there was an
interview you know like prior to the
fight you know there was a big fight we
don't like media every day before we
know me and him we're meeting for media
and
like five days before you know five six
days before I'm quite chatty it's
you know the closer we get to the fight
the more Focus I get the less I stop
joke around playing you know with people
but I remember I think it was maybe
three or four days before we were doing
an interview together I think
I think my cousin Kira was there she was
doing one of the interviews with us
and
I don't remember exactly what we were
talking about but I just remember we'll
talk about the fight of course and then
it was original with standing beside
each other
and I'm like and then I you know
suddenly I chop and I grabbed him by the
neck I say well I'm gonna tap you by the
neck and then he's like you know very
shy yeah and then I let go see no I'm
gonna tap it by the arm and I could feel
he was like he wasn't comfortable you
know with being there was you know me
saying that I'm gonna tap him out there
was like I was so relaxed joking about
it but I'm joking that I'm gonna tap him
out in a fight that we're gonna have him
for this time and
yeah I felt he was like not comfortable
at all
do you think you got in his head a
little bit to give you a little bit of
confidence yeah you've said that you
just is a reflection of your personality
so both your jits and your personality
there's a calmness what is that why are
you so calm is there in like an ocean
underneath that's boiling is this
developed or is this your personality
are you basically leveraging who you are
already to develop a game around the Jiu
Jitsu or the Jiu jits and make you calm
I think both I I was always very calm
since I was a kid you know since very
young I was never very you know fiery
person so that is a reflection you know
you reflected on my reducer of my life
all my fights the way I fight so it's a
direct influence of my personality
and I think he's also in the day you
know you develop the more the more you
practice the more you fight it's like
you know you don't want to get nervous
you don't want that adrenaline and so
you just learn how to shut that off from
your mind so the less I thought about it
you know it's like how many times I
fought you know let's say the week
before the fight that's when you stop
more because when you're concerned the
most because now it's getting very close
before it's just far away you know it's
it's normal to think of the tournament
you get a bit nervous but it goes away
quick but the fight you know the week
before now you're constantly thinking of
that day
and every time you think adrenaline
pumps in your heart accelerate you know
it doesn't you know it makes you it's
like why am I feeling this what
difference will it make so you kind of
you sharing that thought out of your
mind because you don't want to feel the
adrenaline your heart accelerating it's
not gonna add you anything
so it's you know it's the practice also
that I think I helped me to shut that
off my mind has that helped you in
regular life yeah of course it's you
know it's suddenly when you go into any
any situation that might be stressful
you know like an important meeting no
super whatever it is it's like how much
would you worry about that before what
it is not going to help you anywhere
it's the opposite just gonna make you
more nervous you're hard to accelerate
your ability to think clearly is going
to be
damaged by that so it's like they're
more calm the more relaxed you are the
better you can think of do you ever get
angry yeah
like in traffic
do you ever get like not calm just like
you're screaming not not in a screaming
no but just angry what does the angry
look like is it still calm
yeah like you know a few seconds of
complaining but then it goes away have
you ever like thrown a cell phone at a
wall or something like that I think just
that no I never get that angry because
that's just silly it's like it's it's
it's if I would have done that I would
not be able to control my emotions prior
to a fight
[Music]
letting yourself lose yeah uh and losing
control that will reflect other times
do you think
it has uh make in part made you more
emotionally closed off from the world
like you're you're it's harder for you
to be vulnerable to others probably
yeah but I I heard that a few times I'm
emotionally close it's yeah maybe that I
think that influenced it yeah have you
ever cried in a movie yeah
for not for many years before I think
maybe I'm getting older you remember the
movie something nice I mean it's no I
mean not the notebook
I mean I would say the last few years
I've been crying more than before for
some reason I don't know why like silly
movies like nothing suddenly brings
tears to my eyes yeah well I really I
already just having met you and
interacted with you I can see that
you're kind of opening your heart and
mind to the world you could you could
see like here's this historically great
athlete now like the wars have been
fought and you're now like waking up to
the world it's cool to see probably I'm
bringing my guard down now I don't have
to keep it up all the time
you can even do some podcasts
um you said you watched like movies
beforehand sometimes mentioned
Braveheart what were you doing did you
watch something beforehand like the day
before I used to yeah there was like I
think Brave hard
and
Gladiator
I mean th