Kind: captions
Language: en
in my mind I have to tap everybody else
winning is not enough
the following is a conversation with
hajir Gracie widely considered to be the
greatest Jiu Jitsu competitor of all
time this is the Lex Friedman podcast to
support it please check out our sponsors
in the description and now to your
friends here's hodger Gracie
let's start with possibly the greatest
match in Jiu Jitsu history your second
match against buchesha let's go through
the details let's go through the whole
thing so the walk leading up to it you
always do this walk it's epic walk you
post on Instagram Hanzo posted on
Instagram yeah this calm walk towards
the mat well let's go to that match in
particular what was going through your
mind you've been away from competition
facing probably one of the greatest and
at that time many people consider the
greatest Jiu Jitsu competitor of all
time in bachatcha uh here's the old man
the Old Timer getting back out there
what were you thinking yeah I think
that's the first time
since probably I got my black belt that
I was in the favor to walk into a fight
I have to say like a lot of people
thought consider him the favorite
I mean
understandable you know I was out of
competition for a while he was just
winning everything
so you know saying about the walk like
for me
you know the five stars way before the
referees say go you know it's uh is all
the focus on concentration
that I think is very important for me to
start before like you know I almost walk
blind to the Met many times I passed
like great friends and I couldn't see
anyone you know they're trying to talk
to you and I'm like I'm 100 focused on
my opponent already even thought that I
cannot even see him in front of me so I
think that's what me was always uh very
important to try to clear my mind out
from everything are you visualizing the
opponent I'm not just clearing not at
that time is there what's what's in your
head is it like a calm River with birds
chirping what it's flank just blank
Darkness yeah Darkness okay and that's
what we see in that calmness it's just
blankness how hard is it to achieve that
blankness it's difficult to say because
I think I don't remember when I'll say
probably as a black belt I try to
Focus like that not to think because
it's probably something you learn is the
more you think the more nervous you get
and there's nothing that you're gonna
gain by thinking of the fight or the
possibilities what you know what you can
do what can go wrong what can go right
because it's unpredictable you have
absolutely no idea it's impossible to
predict the fight and you discover that
if you just let those nervous feelings
go and empty your mind it actually is
pretty effective it is it makes you feel
better it's you know you kind of control
your emotion control the adrenaline on
your body up to a level
so it absolutely helps you you know
focus in the fight I've learned that in
Jiu Jitsu and in general in life that
whenever something feels really shitty
you can just like take that thought and
not think about it yeah like I do that
like on long runs or like a fast run or
yeah in Jiu Jitsu especially not getting
older out of shape like that feeling of
exhaustion well you can always get to
the feeling of exhaustion you could just
not think about it yeah not think about
being exhausted yeah just and that's
somehow it relaxes you I think maybe in
the face of exhaustion all the fears
start to creep in maybe your muscles
tighten up I don't know this is for the
uh the amateur suggested person
but it's kind of funny how you can just
take that thought and let go of it so
you get as a black belt competitor you
get used to you get good at letting go
of any thoughts yeah for Innovation to
exhaustion is I mean that's not the good
example of it it's
you know there's a lot of times in the
fight you're getting tired and you're
getting pretty tired
so it's like the last scene you want to
think of it is how tight you are it
doesn't matter because it doesn't but
you're going to quit I mean it doesn't
matter yes how tall you are it's yeah
there's no value thinking about it
there's no value it's you just have to
go through it so when you're like uh
you know many minutes into the match and
you're slowly moving as you sometimes do
tying your belt catching your breath
you're not thinking about anything
you're trying to let go of thinking I'm
trying to like to save
everything to the file like nothing goes
to waste it's you know every move
unnecessary this is just going to make
you more tired or it's going to take
something out of you like you know I try
to calculate every single Move I Make
save as much energy as I can so I can
fully you know be focused 100 in the
fight with no way especially energy wise
and that's instinctual like uh
minimizing the amount of moves you're
not like
explicitly thinking should I do this or
not it's just just don't move unless
it's absolutely required yeah because
fight these you you cannot really
there's not really time to think much
you know it's like it's just your
instincts are playing it's like it's
you know you already have your you know
your weapons let's say you know you did
the things that you do at is just you
wait for the perfect moment the beauty
of it is you know there's the right
moment to everything if you feel one
second too late it doesn't work no you
get messy so it's you know you're trying
to catch that moment
that's his you know and for that you
have to be fully focused in what you're
doing because one second is you out it
won't work but you're you're not exactly
known as somebody that moves super
quickly so the so the moment
it's not about how quickly you move it's
about uh the right moment yeah yeah it's
not
like it's speed
it's not like you have to move the
spirit of life it's it's the move itself
at that precise moment it doesn't have
to be super fast because your opponent's
not moving so perfect you know so it's
it's a combination of moving between you
and him I mean the same thing happens in
in Judo and the movement can be really
small yeah it's just Jude is a is a bit
more explosiveness you know she's the
moves are slightly faster so it did no
it does require a bit more explosiveness
in Judo but even just the right timing
for an off balance yeah
it's still a little tough yeah yeah it's
not that they're you know moving the
speed is not going to count that much
yeah it's the timing that you initiate
that move you see that with foot sweeps
there's nothing more beautiful than uh
like uh Olympic level athletes going at
it in the Olympics and a person
and it's just and you see
one man's life flashed before his eyes
and realized like I'm supposed to be the
top three person in the world that I
just find they don't they have this look
on their face like I don't know what
just happened it's beautiful to see you
don't see that I guess you see that
unboxing Knockouts and stuff like that
you don't know what the hell just
happened yeah is it that precise moment
of movement that you get caught like is
is that one Split Second
that's it do you get that in Jiu Jitsu
at all because Judo has
because of the explosiveness because of
the point scoring system that
incentivizes these giant throws
um has these moments where everything
just turns on a single moment do you
have that in Jiu Jitsu too not really
because Dennis points is you get like
you know two points so he's
because I think regarding the submission
it's not just one precise movement that
changed everything I think Judo is the
takedown that counts as a submission
like keep on fight over Jujitsu don't
have that
so you will you will score points but I
think in terms of submission you need to
get to uh in a dominant position first
and then the submission will come slowly
it's a process yeah
okay let's go back to that guy with his
mind so actually in the weeks leading up
to it in the days and the hours in the
minutes is there some fear in you
leading up to this
I mean I'm not going to say you know
that I'm fearless because everybody
fears something you know
the fear is there but it's like how much
you like that controlled you I think I
was a lot more confident than fearful
that for sure walk into that fight like
I I was pretty confident that yeah I
could beat him was the source of that
confidence
my belief going on on me this okay I can
take the word
you can take anyone in the world but is
there specific strategic
like uh you know talking to Donahue
he believes that there's no such thing
as confidence like or rather the way you
get confidence is through data
like that you have proven yourself
effective
uh in previous situations but with
buchacha
you don't you don't have much data it
was a very the first time you faced them
was a very tough
that was also one of the greatest
matches of all time it was very tough so
doesn't that creep in like that doubt
because you know you don't have enough
data to be confident based on
uh
yeah I mean
okay if I never have fought before you
know somebody walked into a fight with
someone like that then would I be that
confidence I mean probably no you know
so that history of what you know what
we've been doing or been achieving those
gives you confidence if that was my
first fight ever
I wouldn't probably I wouldn't be that
much but the time off
uh it doesn't matter it doesn't matter
doesn't matter you don't have the fear
or the actual physical experience the
psychological experience of being Rusty
of being honest that will come out on
training
so you okay so you simulate some aspect
of that yeah I mean the trainer will
tell you how you are okay did you
increase the intensity of the training
leading up to this yeah I mean I've
trained I train normal let's say
compared to the first fight the second
was a lot more confidence because you
know like I said on training the
training for the first fight they were
terrible
so what do you mean I think I was
focusing MMA for a while for a couple
months and I wasn't really focusing the
ghee and you know by the time I accept
the fight didn't start training
like all my responses on training were
off like all my training partners that I
used to train with that I destroyed I
mean now they like they're beating me
you know it's like I cannot beat them
the way I I was used to but you know so
I knew it was something was not right
for the first fight
but then it's like is it you know no
points is submission or Draw so yeah for
people who don't know it was the mother
Morris which is a 20 minute match
submission only so there's no the winner
is determined only by submission
otherwise it's the draw so physically I
was I wasn't myself on that fight I was
tired you know my body wasn't responding
anyway so that so the conflict was
different from the first the second I
think I was confident enough that I
wouldn't get tapped out on the first
that I was still gonna fight because he
has to tap me out to beat me and I trust
on my defense I'm confident enough for
my defense that he will not top me out
but in terms of
winning you know walking to the second
fight I was a lot more confident
what can you say about that feeling when
something's not right it's not a thing
that breaks people these three breaks
it's weird like people crack they give
up you know this is is a big test
because it's it's like being
really tired it's the same thing it's
like a lot of people crack because they
just feel they cannot give in more
there's not having nothing more to give
so they just like give up it's too hard
so what do you do just again take the
thoughts out there's no giving up I mean
I don't mind I don't care like you
you're just giving up it's not enough
it's not that's always the way you
thought yeah about Jiu Jitsu yeah I I'm
never gave up I mean I tapped it's you
know not giving up it's not not typing
that's just stupid especially you know
doing training like it's I get caught I
tap I've never ever
hurt myself by not tapping I get you get
angry you know it's train hard you know
improve make it make yourself better
you'll go caught accept that you made a
mistake give up tap then try harder so
you know the not tapping it's you're
sacrificing your body and you know
you'll never be the same like if you let
your elbow popped the air will never
ever be the same ever you let yourself
go to sleep your resistant drops so this
everybody has a has a limit of
resistance until they you know to resist
a choke before you pass out the moment
that you you you go to sleep that
resistance will dropped that's why I've
never heard anyone say yeah that's
awesome so that's true so tap this so
that's the reason because people usually
say it's no you can somebody is the same
or you're getting knocked out you get
knocked out the first time your
resistant dropped your drug weak gets
weaker so just for the record I've never
gone to sleep again
which uh means my resistance is high
right I don't know it must be oh your
defense is pretty good I I don't know
about that no no I would
um because it doesn't make sense to me
or maybe
in my case I think my understanding of
when I'm screwed is pretty good yeah
like there's no you're not in trouble
yeah one of the things I regret the most
about my Jiu Jitsu journey is not having
given enough time to um
being in really bad positions like the
better I got I think the less I started
being in bad positions
that's like the that is how you train
yeah because you should just Spa When
You Spa like it's difficult to to be in
bad positions a lot and you train with
better people but I mean let's say five
six minute rolls how long you're going
to be in a really bad position not long
right so you don't really have time to
develop
that's why people they don't
you know they don't train be in bad
positions because you have to stop there
over and over again
to be used to it yeah or put yourself
there I just didn't have that mindset I
think I think you start I mean part of
the fun of jiu jitsu's as you get better
and better you have certain people you
go with you have these puzzles that
you've figured out that you're playing
very specific details you're working out
you're trying to improve your main
like techniques and so on but yeah just
the percentage of time you spend being
submitted or being or trying even going
against like Laura ranks trying to
escape basic submissions is low I I
don't know if that's true for most
people probably is right most people
have very bad defense yeah because they
don't allow themselves to be there
because
I mean who wants to get tapped because
you will until you you know to work on
your defense of course you're gonna get
tap or you know you're not gonna Escape
you're gonna struggle to escape
so people they don't want to be there
I regret it most because of the effect
it clearly had and how I competed
it it was it was clear that my
competition was was constantly driven by
a conservative thinking
like don't take risks I think because of
a weak defense honestly and I think uh a
lot of the any of the fear like uh for
example exhaustion was accompanied by
fear because of weak defense I think if
I were to psychoanalyze myself and I
regretted it I regret it a lot
um
but speaking of which
I don't think anyone's ever submitted
you in competition so you're
well I was a juvenile yes
yes so so when you were a young person
yeah six is that still haunt you I know
first I was winning that fight by a
large
I mean I think by six points or four
something like that but I was like I was
going to remember it though huh by the
details
again he never competed again
hi whoever you are please uh let's let's
do a podcast
uh no but what do you attribute to that
too you're saying you're confident
you're confident that
the top of the world the number one
puchesha would not submit you
um so where is that confidence grounded
and what do you attribute the fact that
nobody was able to submit you
first you come down training you know I
train
a lot bad position like my defense is
good because I I practice over and over
again as much as I practice all my
offenses position
so it's you know you have to train both
equally it's not just being a good
position you have to be in bed
so I think that's a very strong part of
my game
you know to be a complete fighter you
know at least a complete martial artist
you have to be good in every single
position every single one those that
you're not you have a weakness
so it's you know to be complete you
should have no weakness
so that was always my you know I was
always very uh particular on that like
it's one of my weakness where am I what
I don't feel good at it if you put me in
a position to a struggle how to escape
how do I get out everything any
submission locked Penny position you
know back mount everything it's doesn't
matter which position up I practice over
and over again so that when I if I get
there in a fighting situation I will
know how to get out at least I'll have a
direction you know I would know this is
my way up
do you practice both escaping the bad
position and the transition
into the bad position avoiding it
because that's how it happens you know
Jiu Jitsu you start in a neutral
position
now the transition then it then becomes
the fight itself you see it's being
there is the most important is when
you're there
then you have to know how to get out
that's your weakness how I either
stopping the person getting that
something different they're two
different things it's you you either you
practice one or the other
so but both are important I guess but
the the stopping the person is easier to
practice because that comes naturally in
training yeah what was uh the actual
process like what was your biggest
weakness throughout your like you just
remembering what was annoying to you to
figure out uh I mean outside control is
always is the bottom of second bottom
it's regardless how much you you
practice it's not that very easy you'll
never be easy
but it's so annoying it makes no sense
yeah someone pins you down this doesn't
want to move much he's a big and strong
guy regardless of who is not going to be
to escape so some situations are just
hard it must be the sorry to interrupt
I'm interrupting hydrogracies but
but you just made me realize
if you're really good if you're if
you're going against like the perfect
Jiu Jitsu competitor
probably side control might be one of
the hardest positions is that the
hardest position to escape is one of
them if the person doesn't want to
progress It's concerned about it yeah
like the best pinners in the world I
mean partially because I've Just Seen
Judo people that know how to pin yeah
they scrape this I control is a
nightmare it's a nightmare doesn't
matter how much you practice yeah it's a
nightmare
and it's also just frustrating uh I
think I guess it is also frustrating
because a lot of people in that position
will be about maintaining control not
progressing yeah and usually people in
their mouth and back control are usually
trying to progress towards a submission
which opens up opportunities for escape
so what's the actual process
of
just time and time again putting
yourself inside a bottom side control
yeah over and over again starting that
escape back Escape get back
if you mount you get back any situation
outside that stop start again stop start
again
and it has to be I'll say five minutes
because it's the repetition that will
teach you you know if you train like
three minutes on top
you have time to you know one thing and
then time up is the right position there
over and over again you know when you
try to say move over and over again then
you see what can go wrong
and is that understanding the details of
the movement are actually doing the
movement and feeling it it's it's both
first you have to understand the
movement and then practice
but
most important thing is defense
Escape coming second
because if you know he's attacking you
the one thing is if he's not trying to
submit you but the other one if it is
let's say if a person is very good has a
very good attack
the first thing is defense
not just Cape you can expose yourself to
a even worse position because that is is
very risky when you're trying to escape
you'll always expose yourself to a worse
position
so avoiding that it's you know first is
defense not getting caught and then when
you're Skyping don't be no worse
position so defense uh Engineers when
you're wearing a ghee what does defense
entail is it mostly grips is it mostly
the positioning of your hips and legs is
is everything together because it's a
whole body movement it's you know it's
constantly moving off your arms legs
body it's it they you know they they
have to everything works together
going back to the mind of that guy uh so
confident
no fear at this point
is there a bit of ego in there too yes
like I say no I'm not gonna say I'm
fearful I'm fearless of course This
concerns
that fight I would have to say was
probably the fight that I got nervous
the most walking in because I knew what
that meant that fight I mean everything
for me all my legacy was on the line
because
you thought I lost that fight though
forever will be number two yeah forever
and I mean bushesh is is a great great
guy great competitor judicious is very
good but I'm better than him I knew that
it's like he's competing non-stop with
them he's uh he's a great competitor you
know taking nothing out of him he's
super tough very very tough very good
it's probably the best competitor
introducer and he won 13 times the world
championship I won 10. so as a
competitor you know he has more titles
than I do
so but in terms of you know analyzing
the game I consider technically better
than him
so knowing all that everything that I
build all my legacy it's
if I was writing on this match if I lose
this fight I'm forever number two
and none of that is going going through
your mind I know I knew I mean it's not
at that moment that I I already knew
that I remember just before you know the
curtains open I'm standing in before
they call my name and I mean my legs
were like
I feel the adrenaline kicking on my legs
and I'm like
you know I'm hitting the legs I'm like
wake up you know get off get adrenaline
off me you know
so it's it was it was intense it was
intense and this was in Rio that was
Unreal so
my hometown so this is I mean and you
know Rio is is not exactly known for its
calmness in its fans so this is like wow
wherever they hosted the Olympics
the year before yeah so this is like
I mean this like the whole basically
martial arts Community is watching this
stuff like
yeah I mean is there some uh was henzo
there yeah yeah so people are just I
mean there's attention it's also
I mean I don't know if you felt that in
part but you're also fighting for the
Gracie name yeah
in the in our hometown the greatest
where the Gracie really is crazy
competitor of all time arguably in the
hometown
yeah I mean okay all my family my best
friends my friends everybody watching
everybody there there was a lot of
pressure a lot
see and then
were you thinking that you would be able
to submit him no it's at that point like
I don't predict how the fight will go
that I never did because it is
unpredictable it's I never tried to set
any strategy for any fight I think oh
okay that I did but that was the only
time that I said any strategy into a
fight there was a 15 minutes fight that
and for I said first five minutes I'm
gonna play defense he's bigger stronger
younger I don't want to play his game
and I know he comes in very fast every
single fight he had you know he comes
very aggressive
so my strategy walk into the fight let's
say five minutes I'm gonna play defense
I'm not gonna try to attack I'm not
gonna try to match his space
I already expected you know maybe I'm
gonna start losing the fight because you
know if he comes in there's a risk of me
maybe getting takedown you know
something happened
I'm like I'm gonna stick to the game
plan
five minutes I'm gonna start picking up
the pace because then it's 10 minutes to
go which 10 minutes a long fight so I
don't need to stop fast but I'm gonna
stop being more aggressive and then
you know try to take him down up who God
you know but by then I'm like that's as
far as strategy goes
there's no specific uh stay on the feet
were you comfortable being both bottom
and top and this yeah strategic I'm
always comfortable being borrowed top I
prefer to be on top because
being in the bottom the personal topic
takes the pace of the fight because he's
on top over you so I always prefer to be
on top because I can dictate the pace I
can Implement my own pace
and being the bottom they can Slow Me
Down
so it's harder so if I can choose I will
always be on top
but I think by then I was like it's
you know five minutes hit it I'm like
he's pretty big and strong I'm gonna
spend a lot of energy taking him down
I forgot how did it how did it feel
so here you're stepping in by the way
puzzle masks this is old school as old
school as it gets
so calm and relaxed here for people just
listening we're watching the early
minutes of the match yeah so just
feeling it out he seems pretty calm too
he must be nervous too I wonder how do
you ever talk to him you guys are
friends yeah yeah we're friends did he
ever say how nervous he was no we never
spoke about that fight no no
he probably lays uh late at night
thinking about it maybe I don't know
that SOB yeah I mean so you see the
first five minutes no he kept
I knew what he was going to do in my
study his game his stand-up is most
basic is basic in takedowns uh leg
attacks double leg so you go single
double and he charges in that is pretty
much his
stand-up game so you try you get you get
a grip yeah that we got penalized
so do you like to uh use the
do you like to post with your left you
have a right foot forward usually you're
righty right I'm ready but I know he
wants my leg so I'm I'm playing my
stance just because of this game
oh you know all my grips are that the
first five minutes was to kind of try to
neutralize his attacks so he wants to
get your left leg Yeah
uh yeah right there yeah so how hard is
that to stop that I mean he felt pretty
strong
so I'm you know I'm pushing the head
down trying to play with his balance
yeah if if you if you see it there was a
pause
go back there he charged in
there's a pause me standing in front of
him yeah I did that on purpose
what do you mean
just uh it's just in front of him
because you know he tried yeah and I'm
like you fail I'm here
there's a
okay so you could feel the frustrations
I could feel his frustrated his
frustration not be able to take me down
okay so now and this is just
psychological battles and you see me
walking straight into the middle of the
mat and he's circling out yeah see I'm
going very slow I'm recovering and he's
Computing like shit yeah okay it's
because he just made a you know effort
trying to take me down he needs to
recover
and I mean you you need to recover the
other guys there waiting for you yeah
enjoy do I go for another takedown
because this one failed yeah do I need
to recalculate the strategy yeah and he
kept trying over and over again and keep
failing I think that frustrated him a
lot on that fight I fell
I felt him kind of slowing down suddenly
because he was getting nowhere
so we're five minutes in yeah he keeps
so you never got that takedown in the in
the early no
let's see so at this point do you pull
guard yeah okay so
that's when I fell
like he's he's
mentally he's he's not he's worried now
did you try to pull close guard here no
I knew he was going to bring Danny in
okay because that's the defense against
pulling closed guard yeah
but I like that
what he I like people bringing the knee
between my legs
because see I'm gonna close my guard
even with this lagging okay he is he's
he's stopping the club well this is this
is awkward but yeah I was holding his
arm that's why he felt he had no hand to
post got it
but still it puts a leg in but you're
able to close your guard around if
you're okay with that I do that really
well at three people from that position
a lot what's the sweep I guess just
pushed okay it's just a pledge to your
left side yeah okay because he has no oh
it's almost like uh you mean you're
basically around his back a little bit
like he knew that like I swipe a lot of
people with that sweep so you you see he
kept leaning to his left to my right
yeah so I want to push them to my left
so you see him leaning over to my right
a lot what's the right answer for him to
like roll or something no I mean he's
stuck he does not really he's stuck
there but the one thing he did he kept
off me completely see that he's leaning
yeah true like he's too afraid of my
attack now because he that you know he
should lean on me yeah you know you
should bring the fight to me so when I
fail him you know I I knew he was like
he's too worried about my attacks now oh
yeah that's right so he can't yeah he
comes back to the center he has no like
so he's not engaging at that time he's a
hundred percent just defending so I felt
that I'm like he doesn't want to engage
and he's looking I knew at that point he
wants my foot because our first fight I
had this like the same position I wasn't
holding his arm and he went to attack my
foot which he did you know he got into
hold or what okay yeah so I know he's
looking at my foot which foot sorry the
left my right yeah my right foot okay
so I'm hoping he's hiding it I'm holding
his arm and now you're going to the back
it's an arm drag type of thing so the
moment that I came off now I'm here I'm
holding his arm so he cannot come up so
he's you know I'm holding his left arm
so he cannot post a hand on the floor
and come up and he's holding it right to
try to get you yeah
basically to prevent you from attacking
yeah
oh that's interesting and he rolls yeah
he tried to he tried to get me off
balance so see now I'm switching I
switched the grip on his arm so I can
free my left arm
can I ask you a question like uh
was there a chance he sweeps you here I
mean there's always a chance but very
bad yeah but see my left arm is free uh
so you can post yeah
why was your left arm free oh cause
you're using it you got it got it
okay
and now I tried the hook now you will
see
yeah but what I knew
his Hispanic
because
he did a move that he completely opened
himself up like I'm holding his left arm
so by holding the arm
his that prevents him from defending the
hook on that side because his arm is
being hauled across so their arm cannot
block the hook and
I mean the hook with your left leg Yeah
okay so you see when he come up but I
would say I mean that's my guess but
bushesh is
he's a big guy you know he's like 110
kilos 112 something like that which is
245 yeah all right yeah so what were you
at the time uh less 220 yeah 220. a nice
slim 100 kilo okay
so
it hits
his defense are not amazing he's good
but you know he's not known to have
amazing defense so by being the big guy
in the room when you train you used to
get out of situation because of your
size you shake people off you know it's
it's because of your size you shake them
off you get off some bad positions you
can I mean I could feel on the first
fight I'm side control you know
something he explode out so you know you
I've seen him doing that a few of his
fights no you're not in the most
technical way just I'm getting out and
he did because of his size
so and he did the same thing like he
tried to stood up when I'm on his back
did he completely open up the hooks he
will see the next move his head gonna
come up and he's gonna try to get off
the floor so basically come up shake you
off kind of energy there was no
difference for the hooks I put both
hooks in
straight away
his arms yeah I'm off balance yeah see I
didn't bring him up he came up yeah and
now
I'm attacking his neck and he's worried
about the hooks
that's fatal mistake that's like defense
always come first remember what I just
said now the defense first Escape second
so he's not worried more about the
points than his neck
so it was like a a progression of
mistakes that's why I think he did he go
frustrated when he couldn't take me down
and then when I pulled God he was he was
he was frustrated that the fight wasn't
going his way you know he's very good
about taking down he tried over and over
again for five minutes and here he was
frustrated about the hooks so he's like
it's almost like the frustration things
like no no these folks shouldn't be here
like I pull God on the grips that I want
he's not comfortable inside my God he's
not in a position that he wants to be
he's over leaning to his left you know
to to to not he's not engaging or trying
to pass he's trying to get the foot but
his arm is trapped he's gonna get
nowhere
and then when I swapped him thundered
his words are collapsing you know he
couldn't take me down I pull God I'm
swept him he tried to roll me over no
you didn't get me anywhere the first
movement that he tried to escape I'm on
his back I mean now he's lost yeah
that if you just go back to him standing
up
see both who goes in no defense like
there was nothing on the way of those
hooks
coming up you're you're high enough on
him to where the weight was just
probably immense
it just felt too heavy man you got it
you already got you're already you're
already going for the choke huh of
course there's no time to lose
look at that yeah so you're not like
worried I'm gonna get shaken off you're
going for the trip okay no shaking me
off I'm on your back now
we're in this together and your your
right hand is opening up the lapel my
right hand is holding his arm
sorry yeah like you're holding the
sleeve but holding the sleeve and I'm
already going for the neck
because it's timing at which point do
you let go of the sleeve and open up
help with the power do you not need it
no I did that but first I want to try to
make a grip like then I need to
establish control Before I Let Go his
own got it
so I kept holding that a bit longer and
then when I fell okay I have a good
control over the back then I Let Go
do you okay so you have like a light
grip on his lapel but you're thinking
you need I need to adjust that you need
to adjust it you're like holding it
there and you're thinking okay at some
point I need to adjust all I need all I
want is to get under his chin then I
noticed I mean now I can't go for it
because if it's over there's no choke
right the wrist needs to be on the
that's just not right okay it's not
right or it doesn't work it both it's
not writing doesn't work I mean would
you tap the choke on your chin no just
pressure
have you you heard but it's not going to
choke you out I don't know I don't know
I'm not let me argue this I love this
arguing with Roger great thing about
jokes this is great okay like clock joke
it was always interesting to me because
in Judo it's illegal to have the gear on
them
and face and so it was kind of
liberating for me to be allowed to have
our gear on the face no it's just
liberating no you don't have to worry
about it like of course it's more
effective to go under the chin but I'm
surprised just because the amount of
pressure like it's all about how much
you can take it you can take a lot but
it feels like no it doesn't feel
comfortable I mean sometimes on your
mouth it cuts your mouth now you're
bleeding you feel horrible no but it
feels that's not the feeling the feeling
it might not be a joke but the feeling
like like it's a pressure that
everything's just closing in but but it
doesn't take you anywhere like you're
not gonna go to sleep you might not go
to sleep so it's just pressure
yes so pressure he hurts is
uncomfortable but it it is not going to
break your face and it's not going to
put you to sleep so if I don't get the
neck I don't go for the kill
I'm like I'm I'm holding the the his
collar you know my my wrist is almost
under it's you know I I'm trying to kind
of dig in if if I can't dig in then I
will adjust the call but first I need to
dig in I dig in first and adjust can you
do all that with one hand or no I did
so you can tighten the choke with just
one hand no I need the second one to
open the level but you're like digging
in with one I'm digging it under the
chin yeah this is under now I need to go
deeper but that the going deeper
requires a second hand it does okay
it does and but that requires you
letting go of the other hand yeah I have
to let go eventually
yeah I see all right yeah well that's
over yeah because I'm already under his
like the first hand got under the chin
do you need the a hand on the second
level yeah of course otherwise he turns
and he's out that's the control of the
Turning versus the tightening of the
choke yeah he does both it helps tighten
the collar and stop the person rolling
out
will you
feeling pretty good about this position
yes
I just felt it's getting tighter tighter
tighter tighter because he wasn't super
tight from the beginning he wasn't like
the perfect joke so we're still I mean I
knew it was like it's very close to the
end but you know he was I still need the
just that was still the risk of maybe
escaping is it possible for his head to
slip up yeah is it possible yes but I'm
closing that Gap
yeah
and here
what does that feel like relief relief
like
awesome amazing
somebody on Reddit ask ask him about the
Cross grip he used to sweep followed
with the genius grips which when
buchesha was inverted did you use a
cross curve when you sweep did you I
guess the Cross grip in the arm that
must be oh that's the cross group okay
uh what's the genius behind that or was
that just the uh do you like that kind
of that kind of grip yeah because I
always like close guard and no one wants
to be in anyone's close card right it's
open God is the step to pass
so everybody when you try to close the
guide they bring them in the middle like
if you if if you're not standing if
you're lower on the ground and the open
guard if you're close to me you need
that knee between so it's a must that's
when I start developing the attack you
know I managed to have long legs to
close my legs around people even with
that and then I just developed that
sweep when did you start developing that
like I don't remember when but I would
say before black belt
Okay so
your answer to that is not to figure out
how to prevent them from putting the
knee in
is there an answer to that no
the good guys will always no you can't
remove that leg out of the way that's
not possible well maybe off balance them
enough to wear this now no okay I mean
you you can try but like it's hard you
know he's kind of honestly you'll sweep
them
right so that means gonna so you're
gonna have to say it's not full sweep
yeah
because that's is the is extremely
common to have that I mean I if if I'm
on your guard open guard you know if you
have your legs you've found between both
of your legs in the open guard mind you
will be between your legs because it's a
must my knee cannot be on the floor
sometimes I was there what did he tell
you before
I think just motivate you I think that's
hands will always do that fantastically
well to motivate me like before I fight
a match
I think that you know the confidence you
know he's
you know his energy being around you
it's I think that's the is the great
thing to have hands on your corner it is
the motivation that he gives you what
did you learn about Jiu Jitsu in life
from Hanzo Gracie we got to hang out
with him in Vegas a little bit he's a
character he's one of the uh historic
coaches and Jiu Jitsu competitors but
also Personalities in the martial arts
world in in the world in general there's
very few like them hands was a fantastic
person it's it's you know what I've
learned most from him is like it's you
know you can't take any challenge it's
you know it doesn't matter when where
yeah well you know who it's you know you
have to be ready and
you know with that war spirit that he
has he you know he always took any
challenge
Ready or Not Ready
was it you that said it or he said it
where
uh not until
you go in
you know to do something difficult to
discover the strength that you have so
like
like if you really think about it
you might think that you don't you're
not good enough you don't have the
strength to take on something difficult
I fully agreed I think we are measure
not when we're on the strongest but when
we are on the weakest
that's when we truly measure ourselves
or character who we are not we're in a
position of power
or when our position of weakness have
you surprised yourself like how damn
good you are
like is this is this really how good I
am in this situation where in retrospect
you might think how the hell was able to
accomplish this not
how good I am because
otherwise I wouldn't be there
so you know being there in the first
place it's it's already not a great
thing but I say you know I've every
single time I found myself there I was
super proud that I've never cracked
like I've never gave up ever any second
any fight never never been broken in
competition never even it's not about
winning or losing is about you giving up
I've never doubt myself I always fought
to the very end always that I'm most
proud of
because there was moments you know it's
you're in a terrible position you know
mainly like there was moments that I was
super tired but like exhaustive tired
when and it was easy to give up like I
had nothing more to give
but I pushed I took
energy out of my soul I would have to
say because when my body had zero my you
know my spirit my soul
pull it out
is that in part just not allowing
yourself to have um
to have to ever ever quit yeah
I have uh one other thing I regret I
remember like a blue belt match
I remember I'm not gonna say who it was
against but uh I remember just being
extremely exhausted
and um just constantly fighting a guy
was really good Mount really good guard
passing and I just remember
um him passing my guard
eventually it was just like a finals of
one of the ibgf tournaments
and then
right away going to mount
and just
I don't know I the the level of
frustration I mean I quit at that point
I said I remember that still like I it's
not about losing winning or losing but I
just remember I was like like I was like
teary-eyed frustrated and then I knew
there was a lot of fights still left
even in there somewhere and I I quit and
I regret that to this day because uh I
think the reason I regret that is
because it gave me an option
to to now quit in every other aspect of
life like that this is an option yeah it
is it sucks
yeah it teaches you you know it makes us
stronger it's actually made you stronger
uh yeah it makes you stronger that you
did that to learn that don't do that
again
um but still like you said just going to
sleep in training
I do think it made me weaker it did make
me weaker in the rest of my life too
that those you know I've quit a few
times in my life on small things and you
realize okay it's not that big of a deal
it's fine
like who cares
um but that what you learn over time is
that voice always comes there like uh uh
obviously maybe it does for you too even
at the highest level of like it's not
that big of a deal like it's okay to
quit here like it makes sense I really
would understand
um
you know in some sense like you're uh
you know many people would say you're
past your Prime in this match with the
procession like it makes sense you've
been focusing on MMA makes sense yeah it
makes sense to lose yeah I don't know
that that's a weird voice and in some
sense uh it's that voice and a voice
that says like why are you doing this
like this is silly that doesn't make any
sense just just stop just stop just stop
and uh shutting that voice down and
never allowing yourself to quit that's a
really powerful thing like everybody
I've met
everybody that's successful
um
yeah down to the even Engineers CEOs
Elon Musk just never quitting
like when everybody around you it says
quit never quitting it's weird I don't
know what that is might be genetic it
might be like using the stubbornness to
just never allow yourself to um
develop that it's basically developing a
calluses to that voice that tries to
tell you to quit you never quit huh what
would you attribute that to
it's like how much you want to get to
the destination you chose like you know
it's how badly when I get there
it's if you quit you're never gonna get
there and you always wanted to I always
wanted
is there some thing you remember from
that match some things that happened
before and after that stand out to you
just since in Rio yeah there was an
interview you know like prior to the
fight you know there was a big fight we
don't like media every day before we
know me and him we're meeting for media
and
like five days before you know five six
days before I'm quite chatty it's
you know the closer we get to the fight
the more Focus I get the less I stop
joke around playing you know with people
but I remember I think it was maybe
three or four days before we were doing
an interview together I think
I think my cousin Kira was there she was
doing one of the interviews with us
and
I don't remember exactly what we were
talking about but I just remember we'll
talk about the fight of course and then
it was original with standing beside
each other
and I'm like and then I you know
suddenly I chop and I grabbed him by the
neck I say well I'm gonna tap you by the
neck and then he's like you know very
shy yeah and then I let go see no I'm
gonna tap it by the arm and I could feel
he was like he wasn't comfortable you
know with being there was you know me
saying that I'm gonna tap him out there
was like I was so relaxed joking about
it but I'm joking that I'm gonna tap him
out in a fight that we're gonna have him
for this time and
yeah I felt he was like not comfortable
at all
do you think you got in his head a
little bit to give you a little bit of
confidence yeah you've said that you
just is a reflection of your personality
so both your jits and your personality
there's a calmness what is that why are
you so calm is there in like an ocean
underneath that's boiling is this
developed or is this your personality
are you basically leveraging who you are
already to develop a game around the Jiu
Jitsu or the Jiu jits and make you calm
I think both I I was always very calm
since I was a kid you know since very
young I was never very you know fiery
person so that is a reflection you know
you reflected on my reducer of my life
all my fights the way I fight so it's a
direct influence of my personality
and I think he's also in the day you
know you develop the more the more you
practice the more you fight it's like
you know you don't want to get nervous
you don't want that adrenaline and so
you just learn how to shut that off from
your mind so the less I thought about it
you know it's like how many times I
fought you know let's say the week
before the fight that's when you stop
more because when you're concerned the
most because now it's getting very close
before it's just far away you know it's
it's normal to think of the tournament
you get a bit nervous but it goes away
quick but the fight you know the week
before now you're constantly thinking of
that day
and every time you think adrenaline
pumps in your heart accelerate you know
it doesn't you know it makes you it's
like why am I feeling this what
difference will it make so you kind of
you sharing that thought out of your
mind because you don't want to feel the
adrenaline your heart accelerating it's
not gonna add you anything
so it's you know it's the practice also
that I think I helped me to shut that
off my mind has that helped you in
regular life yeah of course it's you
know it's suddenly when you go into any
any situation that might be stressful
you know like an important meeting no
super whatever it is it's like how much
would you worry about that before what
it is not going to help you anywhere
it's the opposite just gonna make you
more nervous you're hard to accelerate
your ability to think clearly is going
to be
damaged by that so it's like they're
more calm the more relaxed you are the
better you can think of do you ever get
angry yeah
like in traffic
do you ever get like not calm just like
you're screaming not not in a screaming
no but just angry what does the angry
look like is it still calm
yeah like you know a few seconds of
complaining but then it goes away have
you ever like thrown a cell phone at a
wall or something like that I think just
that no I never get that angry because
that's just silly it's like it's it's
it's if I would have done that I would
not be able to control my emotions prior
to a fight
[Music]
letting yourself lose yeah uh and losing
control that will reflect other times
do you think
it has uh make in part made you more
emotionally closed off from the world
like you're you're it's harder for you
to be vulnerable to others probably
yeah but I I heard that a few times I'm
emotionally close it's yeah maybe that I
think that influenced it yeah have you
ever cried in a movie yeah
for not for many years before I think
maybe I'm getting older you remember the
movie something nice I mean it's no I
mean not the notebook
I mean I would say the last few years
I've been crying more than before for
some reason I don't know why like silly
movies like nothing suddenly brings
tears to my eyes yeah well I really I
already just having met you and
interacted with you I can see that
you're kind of opening your heart and
mind to the world you could you could
see like here's this historically great
athlete now like the wars have been
fought and you're now like waking up to
the world it's cool to see probably I'm
bringing my guard down now I don't have
to keep it up all the time
you can even do some podcasts
um you said you watched like movies
beforehand sometimes mentioned
Braveheart what were you doing did you
watch something beforehand like the day
before I used to yeah there was like I
think Brave hard
and
Gladiator
I mean there's a few others that I've
always watched the day before because
the day before I used to do nothing yeah
I just want to be at home in bed
watching TV like saving you know the
energy
stretching by myself so it's like it's I
just want to save energy I don't waste
my energy going out going around
so you know it's those are the movies
that I always like to watch kind of
trying to bring some you know hyper
excitements like you know I'm getting
ready to walk tomorrow so I'm like let
me watch some
movies they're like brother you know
some that Warrior Spirit yeah into me
yeah what is that about human nature
Braveheart I love you know even more
should you put your life on the line
for a thing that matters or run away
just so you can live it's like running
you may live but like years from now
when you look back at this moment uh
would you trade all the days yeah
just to come back and to this moment and
tell the English you could take our
lives but you can't take our freedom I
mean oh man what is that about human
nature
um
is there some aspect of like the glory
you were able to achieve being more
important than anything else
there's some aspect of that that that's
that's greatness you know yeah I never
pursue Glory
so it's it just came you know it is it
came with it but that was never my goal
I never care for
Glory were you able to experience like
like I'm at the height of this thing
whatever whatever humanity is able to
achieve in various things holy shit I'm
flying I felt like
no one can touch me I can destroy people
yeah prolonged periods of time or just
momentarily
I I always knew you know from before I
got to a black belt that like I I you
know it's I can be great because my
program you know I used to train with
the best in the world I used to you know
it for many years and I used to see my
progression with then everybody else so
I knew I was getting somewhere I know I
could be the best
and that was that was always my goal
since very very young
and I always believed that I could be
and that over the years that kept
telling me over and over again because
I'm getting better and better faster
than everybody else
so it's I just need to carry on with
what I'm doing but I think you've said
that you wanted to
and maybe you thought you could be the
greatest of all time
like at the very beginning like when you
sucked yeah
yeah not not the greatest of all time
because
and I never really thought about that
but I thought I'm gonna be the best in
the world when I saw it when I saw okay
so what is that uh
what is that like that's self-belief is
there a component to that self-belief
being a prerequisite it's difficult to
say because that was a decision I think
like why did I believe that could be I I
can't tell you that because I don't know
but you think you decided I decided to I
decided to be and I believed I could I
think there was like a day somewhere
when you were young where you're like
huh you're sitting at a couch eating
Cheetos I don't think it was them a day
like a moment because
for many years is I wasn't really
training much as a child you know I've
done a bit of I used to train and then
stopped on a bit of Judo never stay away
from it much but until you know it
like from 10 to 14 I barely trained juji
so much I used to there was no gracious
school near where I used to live
and I was doing there was a judo school
I used to go twice a week
I'm going to introduce torment I lost in
five seconds left cried
the guy he pulled me in five seconds
anyway
so
when I was 14 I went to the south of
Brazil to see my uncle Helen
to spend some summer holidays I was
there for like four weeks I think
and I want to go there my cousin Hollis
were living with him Holly is like
bigger than me it was I think it's four
years four years older so I was 14 I was
already 18 17 18. purple belt comparator
and I think that was the first time in
my life that I felt what it mean
what it meant to be a greasy
in terms of
having a school teaching training you
know living that you know judicial
lifestyle what a crazy mean to be and
I've just I've loved that
it was out of shape
my uncle was like you know incentivizing
me to lose weight to train but you're
not training why you know it's like give
what a shape you need to diet so I used
to run every day I was eating super well
I started you know I started that when I
start changing so when I go back to Rio
was super motivated to follow up carry
on and he you know he invited me to go
back there to live with him but I
couldn't it was too soon in to change
schools and everything my mom said no
but maybe next year if you want to go
you can
so I kept that in my mind next year
hey I moved to the South to live with
him I was 15.
and it was him my uncle Helen and my
uncle crawling they both used to live
very close to each other they used to
have their own schools close to each
other so I was with both and I stayed
there for almost a year I mean I was the
youngest in the academy there was some
you know blue purple Bells normal guy
but they're very competing training
ahead of me and I just joined the group
of training I didn't compete while I was
there because there was no composition
that then and I wasn't really ready but
it's not about company it's more about
the training and I start training every
day start improving and year after that
when I came back to Rio I was already on
a mission I was like I love this I'm
just carry on training every day because
my uncle Carlos Carlos Gracie Jr Grace
about
and the one I got there I was training a
little bit that before but I just 14 15
but when I got there there was a you
know there was one of that was one of
the most competitive one of the biggest
Jiu-Jitsu schools at the time there was
so many high-level World champers
competitors in every single belt and so
and I've kind of joined in with that
and I've carried I don't remember when
but I remember you know looking and
saying I'm gonna be the best in the
world but I used to be I was at the
bottom of the stairs you know no one
really believed me I didn't shower you
know to disguise but you know I told a
few people I'm like I'm gonna be the
best
and that's I think up
I was just losing but I've never ever
doubt I've never divert from that
Mission outside did anyone believe you
when you said you could be great nobody
did it matter it didn't matter I don't
care I don't need even people that like
love you everybody my mom my dad not me
no one thought no one in my family
thought I was gonna be here today nobody
because I just started late you know
I've I've never had any start that
people or that kid's gonna be really
good you know I'm always a chubby kid
that didn't barely train I mean people
used to look at me he just another
greasy this
you know one more
what do you learn from that do you think
most people
lose that self-belief they quit when
everyone around them doesn't believe
yeah I think
if if those that need approval yes
but I see you shouldn't have approval
and I'd never need approval from anyone
I don't care if you we believe you're
not if you
not my problem it's tough it's tough I
don't need approval but
you're surrounded by people older wiser
better than you and they're kind of
directly or indirectly saying you stop
being silly kid no one ever told me that
because I I it's not that was not
something that I used to say all the
time I'd maybe say it just very very few
times
I just go you know maybe that's the
secret of course I mean if you start
shouting then you've just been silly
then it's not what you really want then
you're saying that for another reasons
if you say it over and over again
because you shouldn't I mean that's why
well to push back one of the reasons you
might want to say it is to find the
right people that believe in you yeah
but more if you say over and over again
then it's just then you're just bragging
sure because
one thing is to say it but the other one
is to do it
so it's you know you say that once or
very few times but now you have to do it
saying it's not helping you getting
there was there sacrifices you had to
make everything
everything that was my priority in life
everything was secondary like social
life
career paths yeah everything
and is it from 14 15 16 as you get
better and better and better and better
it was just becoming sharper the focus
on this thing yeah it's just over and
over again over and over again it's you
know it's just training training
training and
I mean how many times I lost I I have
had no clue so on the mat you were
getting beat up I'm getting smashed by
everybody
people my age I was chubby I was
physically weak I mean I'm tall but
physically I'm not physically strong I'm
normally strong for my size but
physically
if you want to measure strength I'm weak
because you know we can measure strength
living with living with I'm weak I don't
lift I lift weight same as people much
lighter than me everybody my my weight
leaves have heavy weight and then people
that train with you often talk about how
they're strong super strong yeah because
I generate a lot of strength I can
create I I put myself in the right
angles so then I can be strong I'm not
strong and the only person who I listen
to saying that is uh computer one guy
that I fought
I fought him a few times
and he's the only one that I heard
saying about me this like no Roger's not
strong
he's not he's Technical and he's he can
create strength but he's not strong he
meant that as a compliment
yeah I think so no I think he was honest
because he I think he's the only one who
could see that yes so I think that's a
compliment so he's technically so you
had an incredible matches with him yeah
is there a
Insight you have about how you went from
a person
who was not very good
but had a a dream
a confident dream
a vision
to somebody that was actually good was
there something to the practice sessions
were you getting reps on the specific
techniques I'd never done anything
special because I mean you know I'm in a
gym training equally with everybody else
so I've never did anything on the side
different than anybody else so you know
I was in the school training this is
like the same way as everybody else wow
in terms of schedule yes but what was
can you reverse engineer what was going
through your mind because there's so
many different ways to actually mentally
approach these same exact training
sessions I'm gonna try to be
okay so in some part is competitive yeah
like at the core of it
is I want to be better than these
particular people you're going to keep
beating me I'm gonna keep coming back at
you and to do that I have to solve
problems I have to figure out how to do
stuff you catch me once
I'm Gonna Keep On Coming trying to
unlock
get get caught on that at which point
did you develop a game that was
basically the white the famous white bug
game of the very Basics the very
fundamentals of Jiu Jitsu like
saying I'm going to beat you
there was never there was never a
conscious decision to to try to you know
to have a basic judicial first
I think there's a big misconception
there okay
it's not you're right it's not basic
it's not old school I think people they
just don't see that it's extremely
complex
in a way that is is people they cannot
copy I teach people you know I can teach
you
the cross color choke
but the one thing that people didn't
realize
is not the move is you need to practice
the move until you learn
is the practice over and over again like
it took me years
when I say ears I'm like years after I
was a black belt I was able to choke
people out with a cross-color choke in
the mouth effectively years after I got
my black belt so he said that's
something that you learned first day
first week
so I can't teach you it makes no
difference
you you know the theory but until you've
applied it and you help you of course
the more details you learn you know the
the more tools you have to practice but
it's still very complex because it's not
about the move itself it's about how can
you control the movement of the other
person
he's resisting you're blocking you
cannot predict what he would do and he's
doing a whole bunch of moves to to block
you every single move you do a step of
the way because it's a is is a
progression of move from beginning to
end till I apply the joke it's a
progression of moving there's not one
way to get that there's many ways
because how many ways can you blocked
you can put your arm in every single
angle we have both arms you can Bridge
so it's dealing with all that that is
the yeah that is the complex complexity
of the position but that goes for
everything like every single move
my strong moves I would say it took me
years developing them years so it's and
you're going to tell me that's basic so
go try and do it what the other person
is defending that's the thing because
most of the things that I do
have been doing them for years and I
they know that I'm gonna do and I can
still
get it most the times
that's the hardest is when they know
what's coming and you can still do it
and he said that the way you're able to
do that you just have to do it right
yeah
what do you learn by doing
all the steps along the way and just for
people who don't know cross-color choke
from the mount
so Jiu Jitsu starts in a neutral place
there's people on their feet and then
you either then you get to the ground
somehow and then there's the person on
top and on bottom and then there's a
guard with the legs between the two
people and then you can get past the
guard as you get past the guard and you
uh into side control and so on you get
more and more and more dominant
positions and so Mount is considered to
be one of the most dominant positions
it's when you're
past their legs sitting on top of their
stomach
putting pressure on them and cross
collar choke is using their jacket to uh
how would you explain that to children I
put my both hands on your collars and
when I squeeze you you press your neck
so it blocks the venue you go to sleep
so it's a you you choke people with your
hands in the wrist you put them you know
you grab the collar so you get the
wrists around people's neck can you
squeeze yeah the discovery of that is
fascinating I mean because it's it's
interesting it's like um
you know you can imagine there's all
kinds of ways to choke
a human being
what animals do with their like mouth
right they put like their jaws around
the
and the fact that you can kind of
discover this methodology of the right
kind of positioning and then it becomes
an art form like
of why this why not this right or why
not this or something like to figure out
we practice that would come easy over
time you figure out what works and what
not on you and then and then more
further and further details and
subtleties start to emerge anyway on
that process of beating of being able to
beat some of the best people in the
world and the thing they know is coming
what is what's the difference between
the white belt doing that and hydrogracy
doing that the thing that's so hard to
explain what do you think you're picking
up is it some tiny tiny details of
muscle movements it is it's many tiny
details because
is is the whole movement itself is the
perception
from beginning to end like every step of
the movement it's important and precise
so it's you know you miss once one
detail on the way you collapse
so I'm going to start with the black
belt the black belt has no control over
their whole movement he's thinking
beginning and then
so he goes straight to you know straight
to your neck regardless he cannot read
the other person if his you know if it's
time to let go of the time to go for a
neck should I be pushing here before I
get my hand in you know is is this the
right time to go deep or should I deal
with this first before the second hand
that's at the beginning says that that
the white belt yeah at the very
beginning of the journey yeah the white
Bell to just think finish yeah
and then as you get progressed you see
that there's like this giant tree of
possibilities that you're almost feeling
your way down I mean would you be able
to teach
do you even know what you're doing
by the details okay
but it's hard to convert into words
probably uh no it's possible then you
don't know what you're doing okay uh
so what is what what is the most
important details
they could say maybe positioning of the
hand the gripping is it the positioning
of your body the posture is there some
interesting like insights It's a
combination because first you have to
put your body in a very strong position
that you don't require your hands to
hold them out
so the choke is that that's first
because
I cannot use I cannot use my hands on
the floor to stop you escaping yeah so
if I had to my body has to handle that
the way I position myself I have to do
it in a way that don't require my hands
for balance okay why is the model such a
dominant position it doesn't make any
sense right like you're just sitting on
top of the stomach of a person it makes
all sense if you think what's forget
forget fighting forget Jiu Jitsu like
you've never trained what's the one
position the most dominant position you
can get over another human being one the
most for you which one it is like the
most dominant position that you can get
over another human being
so if we were just because the way I
think about it is putting myself in like
a six seven eight year old self without
knowing any martial arts and I had an
older brother who would beat the shit
out of me
uh yeah it probably was Mount
it what
but
well yes okay so we both didn't know but
if you knew something it'd probably be
back control
if in the back control you're under the
other person the thing being under is
the most dominant position it can be
over another person
you mean like a back control if I'm on
your back oh like that you can move you
can roll I cannot stop you rolling yeah
maybe you can even stand up how dominant
is that yeah but if we're the same size
both untrained it doesn't matter have
you seen kids do they do that okay
mount looks and feels like dominance
when you're two eight-year-olds fighting
okay I don't know I don't know why it
feels that way it could be some
animalistic thing maybe it is actual
dominance I don't know but it feels like
if you're on trained you can just buck
your way out of it it feels unstable it
feels unstable to hold mouth unless you
know what you're doing right no well if
you if you're multiple both of your
hands on the floor yeah just your hands
to think it's easier to take somebody
off
yeah maybe not to think it's easy to
remove the hand and bring them out the
hands on the floor I'm straight I'm
leaning in
yeah you're right it's hot
I mean you don't need to know fighting
to hold yourself down yeah but you're
right when you take the arms off and
balancing then it gets tricky because
when you're trying to uh I think what
happens I'm thinking back to
eight-year-old because my my brother's
five years older than me and he would do
the usual like stop hitting yourself
thing and you I think he'll be in mouth
like hitting me with my own hands uh
from at a place of Love of course I love
them deeply and it was very formative
and uh positive experience for me okay
um I think yeah the weakness is when he
takes
well when the person who has your mouth
takes their arms off to to do something
but even if you keep your hands opened
yeah when I'm falling
yeah okay I'm not falling so I'm
speaking about untrained people I feel
like they get greedy they try to do
stuff the other day I watched my
nine-year-old daughter yeah well I'm in
a friend's house
there's a whole bunch of kids that
they're playing
and when I looked
she's mounting a boy her age her size he
cannot Escape wow she probably has seen
no she trans she's been training for
almost a year and a half okay which is
not much I mean she's a nine-year-old
daughter a girl over a boy has she seen
footage of you maybe she picked up no
but she appreciate she'd been training
for a year and a half so she has an idea
what Mount is but
I mean it talks about skills I don't
never taught her them out yeah she has
you know she had lessons at the Academy
like any other kid did she make him cry
or no but he couldn't escape
which which are the position would she
be able to hold that boy
you know in the back he would roll it
out that's true like he couldn't come
out from underneath her shoes in decades
like there is no other most dominant
position that you can pin the other
person couldn't you argue
from that perspective side control no no
because I control you have to to hold
the other person
and it's you're not free you you cannot
release them but inside control your
hips are not on top of theirs
so
they can't Buck you off right
can you if you're holding them a little
bit and then you can hit them with one
hand but his head is here you're gonna
hurt him here by the time you're doing
that but then he has his arms free and
if you turn towards your legs
then he's away from your arms you're not
even has the perfect angle I mean it is
a good position you can hit you can
dominate but it's not the best position
to be over the other person he can knee
you in the head at the same time you
punch him then there's a knee come into
your head
I love playing Devil's Advocate to hide
Your Grace about two eight-year-olds
fighting and you and you your head is
closer to his hand yeah maybe he can
give throw you a punch all right so
would you choose to be inside control of
a mouth
getting in the head well for a person
who in competition prefers neon belly
over her mouth
but that's my weakness that's my failure
as a human being holding him out is is
can be tricky it's very hard
of course it's hard
but what is easy
control in neon Bell is easier but neon
Bell is easy
easier I'm not saying black belt level
I'm saying well maybe even black belt
these are for what to hold somebody
to make them squirm and hurt
to create openings with a big guy yeah
you can you can't yeah
he's gonna push it back and come up in
the mouth he can't sit up not when he
mounted him the thing is also about Mao
is people on the bottom of mouth Panic
more
it's the most exposure you you have
because the first arms are free you
cannot touch him his head is too high
there's nothing he can do his legs won't
get you anywhere he might touch your
lower back it's like nothing
you do you you most expose being in the
mouth
already you hope inside control a
thousand times the amount of me and
having to look up for your fist come
down
yeah side control I heard you you cannot
hurt me
okay hold me but I'm hugging you if I
hug you tight what can you do against me
hold it it seems maybe it's just from uh
and again I'm arguing just for the fun
of it but
um
it seems like a more difficult
skill to learn
to apply a huge amount of pressure and
weight from Mount you don't have some
slight pressure and weight from mouth or
not apply pressure but be heavy right
you don't necessarily need to be heavy
you don't
no why do you as people say you feel
extremely heavy if I'm putting if I'm
being heavy I cannot attack
yes I I have to choose I can be heavy
just to penalize you know just to
pin them take the energy out you know to
make them suffer but the moment that I
decide to attack I can only behave him
if I'm sitting up straight that's when
my all my weight can drops down if I'm
high then I'm sitting on your chest and
on your own solar plexus that's the
worst position to be said added on the
person because that's where he breathed
so you're in a high mouth sitting up
straight that's when you can I can be
very heavy I can make people you know
feel my weight and you know be very
uncomfortable but I'm not in a position
to attack the moment that I want to
attack my body has to lean forward I
have to approach the you know the neck
of the arms the moment that I do that my
weight comes off my hips it goes to my
knees the way it is off you
but at that point if you have now I'm
attacking I'm no longer heavy on you but
you want to be at that point to remove
any of the defenses they have or some of
the defenses by getting there now now
I'm like either getting trying to get
your call or bringing your elbow across
to talk to your unlock so what are some
interesting details along the way that
are tough to get to figure out
what were the big leaps for you from
white belt to to the best in the world
it's you're trying to attack the neck
you know putting one hand in the collar
you're priving yourself that hand to
place it on the floor yeah so now you're
vulnerable to get bridge to get rolled
over because if your hands are free
trying to roll you over you stopped the
moment they put your hand in the
person's collar now you have to be very
careful with your body positioning very
careful the distribution of the weight
yeah and how you you know how high you
sit you know how tall you you your upper
body goes and then the biggest challenge
comes as you try the second hand that's
the you know for the for the choke
that's the biggest challenge the second
hand because you already have you you
know you already don't have one hand now
you you are trying the second hand and
if one of my hand is in you you know as
a uh defending yourself have two hands
one hand is already on one side this
this side is getting attacked you have
two hands blocking that I have one hand
there's no help for that hand I cannot
remove anything that's the biggest
challenge getting one hand getting past
two
and not getting rolled over but I also
have to have two hands on bottom I have
two hands and can also turn and do all
kinds of stuff yeah
and my whole mind and everything is
focused on that second hand
it's a big challenge it's hard very hard
is there an art to getting the first
hand into a place where you it's less of
an art because it's easier I'll say most
times I get my first hand in is when you
you try some move you're trying to
escape you're pushing I get with the
first handing as an opportunity and it's
gonna sit there for a while
and now and I go as deep as I can so the
first hand because the second hand is
the hardest I have to compensate the
first thing to be as deep as I can right
if I cannot get the first hand in deep I
won't try the second
I need that first hand deep then I go
for this and it's deep in it everything
is like super like tight super tight the
first hand has to be super tight
otherwise the chance of failing is very
big okay does the opponent usually feel
like they're screwed at that point also
no as you put in the first hand and the
moment that I position myself just prior
to attempt the second hand I think the
way I my body is positioned the way I'm
I'm collapsing with my weight and the
field is like it's I'm in a
this is terrible yeah how long did it
take you to figure out how to reposition
your weight once the first hand is in
very quickly because door get reached
out
okay so that there's a good feedback
loop yeah because one mistake you out
like one off positioning you out but you
still have to do that against the best
people in the world yeah where is the
way out for most people like if you were
in Mount against pusheshire or some of
the best defenses in the world uh
the way out is to I mean obviously is to
defend themselves and you know prevent
the first hand to get deep and I'll say
the best
thing that they could do is try to
change my positioning on the mount in a
way that you know pushed me to a very
low amount you know try to just to to to
to change the way I'm dominating you not
to be you know to get me off the high
mount pretty much are you always is it
as slow is it a fast thing to go from
low to low a high mode slow very slow
because I need to beat your arms because
you're holding me down and the arms need
to come out it's a slow it's a slow
process okay and you just is there like
a yeah you saw use my legs against your
arms so it's my legs pushing your arms
but how do you get them how do you get
your legs into the elbows as long as
this
you know it has to come under the tip of
your elbow because now the legs will
start forcing your arms up
so your legs are like spread out there
no they're in your elbow cannot get
inside my leg right because that because
that means I'm in a very low amount
and then I cannot attack because I
cannot ignore that because the mode that
I attack that will
you will stop pushing my leg to push me
out
what's the secret to getting the second
hand in
there's two ways either you go four
fingers inside which is the hardest
because with the moment that your two
hands are defending
you'll be blocking the the you know the
the way and I cannot clear and attack
two hands against one so I go summon I
go behind the ear yep so my my grip goes
because for you to defend you need to
get there yeah and when you get there
you elevate your air will expose the arm
lock
put the thumb in and then there's the uh
dreaded
like the other person just waits for you
to Loop the arm over how about that this
will it's a once you get the thumb and
it's over
okay no but when I'm there it's if I get
that it could be a bridging you know
they try and I mean I'm not using their
hand to post
now your head is your head is very close
to the floor when you've tried to Bridge
and you know my forehead would touch the
floor that would be used as a hand but
it's not on the floor not necessarily
okay because if it's on the floor my
body's collapse over you yeah so there's
no place for my hand for me to work on
your neck so I need some space between
us so I don't completely make it bob up
and down yeah I try to keep a gap
between us okay
so that Pursuit that takes many many
many many many years
I don't know if you've seen Giro Dreams
of Sushi the
doing the simple thing
that's not so simple but it kind of
looks simple of the over and over and
over and over and over and presumably
getting much better and simple it
becomes very simple but you're picking
up details probably along the way
there's wisdom along the way
what is that is that um
there's like lessons that you just kind
of accumulate over time like one
training sessions you'll see
maybe
um
like the positioning
of the thumb like this detailed
positioning of the thumb or something
like this and then you like okay if you
like load that in
that that would be very basic because
there is not that many different ways
maybe one two I just do one any other is
not as strong because it's it's about
getting a strong grip on Your Collar I
mean the sun is it's the thumb goes
inside you know is it the thumb in or or
four fingers in base getting a strong
grip on the call as long as they know
this
is just holding yeah and feeling strong
so that's just two options so uh it's
the dynamic stuff along the way that
yeah and then some of that timing too
it's timing are you also like making
people like faking them out making them
think about something else no not at
that point
that's not because I cannot fake
anything else at that point
because I'll have to change my
positioning to you know maybe to fake an
arm look then I have to move out from
that so then I will lose that the
control I have so what's the process
towards Mastery if you were to convert
that to something that generalizes
Beyond jiu jitsu how can you get
that good at a simple thing practice
and what that simple the same exact
thing over and over it's just a matter
of how long it would take
so all
that's true that's true I mean like I
said that's true look how long it took
me
people give up along the way
there is um intricacies to that Journey
towards Perfection there's a lot of
people that do Jiu Jitsu for decades
and don't get better no because they
don't train the way they should they
don't train to get better they train to
get tough there's a big difference
most people they train to get tough so
they are tough you know like we were
talking before they don't practice the
weakness you want to be good at you want
to be really good at jiu jitsu
you have to practice your weakness not
your strength
you have to practice everything but you
have to be equally strong in every
position they all exactly the same you
know you your guard top bottom side
control top bottom Turtle half guard
mount back I mean you pick take down
it's and then you get into details of
escaping triangle
it's applying the you know triangle
escaping arm lock difference scenarios
of you know it's the one thing is
defending the amlock when you you know
you have your time your arms very close
to your body the other thing is to
defend the arms when your arm is you
know almost getting and then when he got
your arms so this
so many things to practice
that you need to repeat them over and
over again until you confidence enough
that when you get there you have a
chance and you can do the same kind of
thing for even the final stages of a
cross joke from everything I mean of
course like you don't practice skipping
the unlock with a full arm straight
because you know it's it's gone
I mean you practice
you know you practice keeping the arm
lock when he takes your arm you have you
know you have a chance of trying to
escape but you don't practice you know
okay take my arm when I say go Go I mean
you got you know you pop the arm
that is like you get injured doing that
escaping the cross color choke it's
I mean Escape not letting the person get
there you can escape you can practice
keeping triangles because you know it's
like it's you you have a way better
chance of skipping Triumph but then okay
mount on me put both hands in my neck I
mean it's over you know don't be there
what's the best submission in Jiu-Jitsu
a choke I would say for which position
oh
if if a billion dollars
to start in a position
like uh in a submission and you only get
the billion if if you get the submission
which one would you start choking them
up Costco checking them not from the
back
no you have a better chancecaping from
the back
really yeah even with the hooks even
with everything do you think some people
disagree with you I don't care I have a
better Escape I have a better chance
skating from the back than if you mount
on me put my hands on my neck so I've
been that many you are facing yourself
and I will give you a billion dollars to
escape
you you would uh you would pick from the
back a thousand times over like really
no compare you have like uh with hooks
with like a triangle like that matter
you can do whatever you want but like a
body triangle okay
okay
a thousand times over so what no
questions it's you the mount is a super
controlling position it's not just
because
cross color choking the amount the
moment they put both hands on my neck
you know you have to your arms need to
be very close to your body to attack so
that means there's very little space
between us so that means there's very
little escape space for you to work on
your escape and the moment that you
cannot Bridge let's suppose I have you
know the person has a good Mouse so he
cannot Bridge him off what else you
don't have space to try to work on your
defense being in the back I have all the
space around me to work on my difference
in my arms I have the mobility to bring
them anywhere
so I because of that it gives you me a
much better chance
and yeah you cannot I can move my body
you feel my you feel my back you you
cannot pin me
you know my I cannot take you off my
back first I need to defend the choke
but you have no control over my body so
that means there's still a lot of
movement that I can try to use to escape
in the mount there's no movement I'm
pinned down I cannot move and I have no
space between us to escape well the
argument against that this is great is
that on the bottom of Mount I the uh I
do have my hands between
so you're saying they're pinned there's
nothing between where I mean you could
get them in theory you could somehow you
could but there's no you can but then
there's no space they'll be squeezed
between our bodies if it's an incredible
if it's an incredible amount no it does
not Mount like how standing if I put
both hands on your neck if I'm gonna go
for the cross collar choke after I get
my hands in the next step is to pull you
close to me so it's this my arms needs
to be closer again
put there's a hands that could do
something they can come in but this they
are very limited space between us yes
yes no I mean to push your body away
only through standing not if your back
is against the floor okay the argument
against the mount is uh or the argument
for back controls being the most
dominant position is even though I have
hands I can't really use them
effectively
as effect 9 the mount
there's no space there's no space you
can try
I mean you can squeeze your hand in I
mean there's there's still things that
you could do but they're so limited so
if you pulled
the 100 best competitors of all time
what do you think they would answer to
that do you think most would agree with
you
I don't care
please
it will show me
their skills the ability to see okay so
the perfect mount versus the perfect
back control there's no question okay
there's no question for me
I mean argue with me like show me
because I'm not being stubborn because
I'm being I've been scientific
so explain it to me why the back it you
would be harder it would be better to
your position to finish them out if if
you can explain it to me why
I might change my mind I was trying to
but uh
I don't I don't have the cred
I'm like a middle school a science
student trying to talk to Einstein here
okay besides you who do you think is the
greatest Jiu Jitsu competitor of all
time
can you make the case for some of them
Marcelo Russia
liangelo I'll have to go with bushesha
because look at the how many titles he
has I mean
he has by far more than Marcelo Marcelo
stopped quietly
londolo has eight but
sure she's better than him what do you
think makes procession so good
he's a heavyweight that moves like a
lightweight his removes very fast but
he's very agile for his size
so the uh the agility combined with
aggression yeah so it's very hard to
control him because he moves fast
and he's 112 kilos more than 15
sometimes or 110 I'm not sure but he's
about around that so 240 in in pounds so
when you when you agile 200 to 240
pounds that makes it very hard to
control you what about making the case
for some others what about the little
guys or about Marcelo if you were to
make the case for him being the
strongest what makes Marcelo good masal
gas is extremely technical I mean I
think he's he's one of my favorite
judges of Fighters
because in in a technical way I think
he's probably one of the best because
raw technique in a bunch of different
positions for submissions he's
he's not very powerful you know
physically he's not very strong
but he can make himself very strong and
his technique is very very high level
have you ever uh trained with him not
fight him twice yeah
he's more smaller than me it's what
happened in those matches the first
fight I topped him I think five minutes
in which submission choke from the back
color choke from the back
and the second time I beat him by points
but a very large I think 12 to
actually uh
just to continue
uh I wonder if uh if John Donahoe would
agree with you about Mountain back I
can't wait to this is a bear versus lion
conversation but I'm looking there's
there's statistics about
I'm not letting this go uh there's
statistics about
oh look at that Roger what do you know
looking at Hydra Gracie's statistics for
um most successful submissions choke
from the back yeah is the most
because people panic when I'm out ah
they turn the back I choked them out
that's one explanation uh but for people
it is interesting that uh of course this
doesn't capture but this captures a lot
of your major matches
and we should say that you've submitted
most of your opponents so you rarely win
on points usually wins submissions
choke from back is most of them then
cross joke from about arm bars a lot too
so 18 from choke from back 12 cost joke
10 armbar
uh five RNC rear naked this is for nogi
okay so Ezekiel is very powerful I took
I'll use it's a strong weapon yeah also
from Mount for also from Up
oh that's when you can't get the one
hand in no because the Ezekiel most
times I use against people is is that
is the attack that as soon as I get to
the Mount when they're trying to escape
the open up and I get them it has to be
at that initial
timing so it's not a thing you use to
like bother them in order to create
either I get it right right away or I
don't bother trying much because you
need to keep one hand behind the head
and that um you're naturally on that
position as soon as you're Mount most of
the times and the moment that you mount
someone no one accepted they go mount it
they're gonna expose to get out so hold
in the head it gives you a better way
way to dominate them initially you know
to deal with that explosiveness on the
big on the initial in the beginning
and then but then we have to let go to
try it you're very limited hold in the
head
in terms of goats uh shanji
I feel like he doesn't get enough credit
that he deserves he had an extremely
dominant performance in competition what
about solo and Sanji hibera what are
your thoughts about what makes them so
good yeah a bunch of tough matches with
ashanji yeah and Solomon eight times
yeah for eight times shown there I
fought solo once
what uh
I think I'm bringing up a sore Point
um
oh did Sanji tap when you uh or did the
time right out and that uh was the last
time you guys face each other yeah 2008.
that was incredible to watch uh also
um
I think you pull guard with one minute
left working towards or attacking I mean
it's probably very tough to get anything
and uh for people who don't know time
ran out you had uh something that looked
like an arm block
and uh shanji
look like he may be tapping but it
looked like he might be just celebrating
which is mostly I'm not sure I'm not
sure it was
I'm not sure because
I think he's I'm just just straight he's
on time finish yeah so I'm not sure if
it was tapping to you know to let go
time time's up or because of the outside
most likely the time was up yeah and
also there's a thing where you start you
realize there's only three two seconds
left he used to kind of start
celebrating you realize that hydra's not
gonna be able to finish this armbar in
the time left so you start celebrating
no I think he topped to say the time the
time was up anyway what do you think
like the longevity especially is
impressive with with uh with shanji how
long I think he doesn't get credit as
much as he deserves because he pushed
his career very far and the last few
years he was on his best
so he's
if you were to stop before you know you
would people would remember him on his
highest
but he kind of pushed
more than his
Peak let's say
how hard is it for you to walk away
we'll talk about the journey into MMA as
well but you basically especially with
the second match against Patricia
basically walked away on top
um beating arguably the greatest
competitor of all time
um and just walking away
it wasn't that hard to be honest because
there was something that I was
considering for a while
because the last few years of my career
let's say
he was fighting MMA at the same time I
was fighting Jiu Jitsu and it's very
challenging to do both
like I don't there's not another person
who ever did that because the training
is a confliction with the Y train
everybody who start doing MMA start
focusing MMA
the Jiu Jitsu gets worse because they
stopped training with Diggy
everybody no exception
was your Jiu Jitsu also getting worse no
because I made sure I kept training with
the ghee and I kept fighting at least
the world championship once a year that
was my goal I'm like I'm gonna go for
MMA but I I love Jujitsu and I still
want to fight the highest level so I
kept fighting once a year for a few
years
it was a challenge
especially because the two or three
times when I competed other words it was
right after I MMA fight ahead and then
you know no you don't you you don't have
the grips so if my grips it made a big
difference
oh my grace so I was weaker great price
so I failed that so I knew it was like
it's it's unnecessary risk because I'm
not if I cannot be 100 so what am I
doing this but I'm stubborn I love
Jujitsu that's like I love if I
introduced to I never loved MMA I've
liked it but I think it for Grace I
wouldn't have done it
so the the thing you felt the most
is uh the grips yeah
yeah because you want a ghee World
Championship without gripping no like
just pretending it's no game match they
get to grip you but you don't no so
grips are essential of course I mean how
can you choke someone like it's if your
grips are weak you you your forearms
will fatigue
and then you will have no power and then
you cannot do anything yeah
you could still arm lock and you can
so I meant more not for the submission
but for the control of the game of it
but you need to opportunity to grip to
get there to get there
and if it was a week
but you also have grips and nogi can she
use those grips no it's a thought
experiment so like I'm trying to
understand how essential I gotta get a
new guy go fight with the git they Panic
they Panic of course everyone panics a
bear panics when they're in the water
with a shark but that doesn't mean the
bear can still win when it stops
panicking and relaxes
it's not possible that's another
discussion can a bear beat a shark in
the water
um
actually I need to put maybe a polar
bear because they're pretty good at
swimming okay I say not possible for the
no gear guy to win but the Bears is it
for the discussion
what was to you the biggest difference
between mixed martial arts and uh jiu
jitsu what are some interesting
differences some interesting insights
even just about the grappling within
both Sports
so the biggest difference for me between
MMA and Jiu-Jitsu is first is the speed
like Jiu Jitsu you know like a 10
minutes match I can take my time there's
no dangers there that forces me to move
fast
MMA you have to be 100 Sharp
in fast from
first second of the fight because
punches are coming can get knocked out
anytime one mistake you're out you just
don't have that like it's I don't have
to worry about quick submissions because
it's all about the way my body is
positioned you know my grips is easy to
avoid it's easier to see it coming
like it's like a quick submission a
surprise it only works if you make a
mistake if you're not correct
positioning otherwise it's impossible
it's extremely difficult MMA is not I
mean one Split Second mistake and when
the person comes
you have to respond you have to to match
your space I mean you can slow down but
it's like you you're forced to respond
so that much faster is that it's a lot
more physical a lot more
and you need to be physical much better
conditioning faster it's explosiveness
it's much harder is it possible in the
MMA to
calm things down unless if they change
the rules yeah five minute rules now
ah I see so like uh I just meant
actually technically speaking is there
ways to
to take an opponent that's being
exceptionally aggressive you can clinch
clinch but then he takes her down he
keeps moving something is hard to
control that pace
you can you don't if you play defense
you you save more energy than if you try
to beat aggressor and respond and even
get into the coins is very difficult
yeah you have no way to hold yourself
there
so that was the biggest challenge for me
in MMA is the speed because I'm a very
slow start fighter if you look at my
matches I start very slow because if I
go hard you know I fatigue faster so for
me that was the hardest part
of is to start fast
what about on the ground is there
something different
more challenging in the ground being in
the bottom yes the sponges yeah how
fundamentally different is jiu-jitsu's
punches on the ground that changes
everything everything
which which parts the the distance that
you allow your opponent to be on you the
techniques that you choose to apply
you know you you have to
but your body has to be aware of the
punches and you know you are a lot more
limited on your attacks like so you're
you're known for your closed guards how
does your closed guard have to adjust
how does the positioning of your hands
have to adjust when you're on the bottom
of close guard so in the garden
especially the close guard you you have
to either keep the person very close to
you or you have to kick him away that's
in the God is either I'm hugging you or
get away from any Jiu Jitsu you're
allowed to have a middle yeah there's a
lot of you can allow the person to be
what about getting a a arm lock or a
triangle submissions from the from the
guard is is that fundamentally different
because you don't have the middle game
is much harder
there's barely no open guard
in MMA very little
because the open guard there's a
distance between you and him yeah
there's a distance you how you you
cannot control it's much harder to
control that punch coming and I have to
position myself a way to block that and
it limited my attacks my options of
attacks is there a reason
correct me if I'm wrong but I don't
think you do open guard much in Jiu
Jitsu and nogi
is there a reason for that
it's harder with the explosive uh
explosion of person
because it's you know when they're
moving fast then you have to try to slow
them down so you like guards that allow
you to control the person
and closed guard is the ultimate control
oh no it's not ultimate control but
close guy puts in a position that I'm
attacking and you're defending you
cannot attack me for my close guard
we can argue that this might be one or
two attacks but it's like
very very very limited and
depends who you're fighting against
but I I hate the Coast Guard of being on
top well against a good close guard is
no one likes this is terrible it's
horrible yeah it's one-sided yeah so
you're in the garden is one-sided the
person the brother has the advantage I
can be completely relaxed in my closed
guard
and I cannot be completely relaxed you
know the most annoying thing is is
somebody who is both good and extremely
confident with a close card because they
have that smug energy about them they
know how much unpleasant how much work
it takes to pass this anyway
um especially people with longer legs
is there something you um wish you did
differently in how you started trading
at MMA in that trajectory and figuring
out how to train how to get good like
what have you learned about getting good
at MMA
from having done it if you were to start
now for example
I think I would have to dedicate it more
I didn't dedicate enough
uh both like literally time number of
training sessions training yeah but also
mental training wise physics yeah I
think a lot more the physical part of it
the strikes everything the strike from
the beginning it's
because
I mean I love Jujutsu like it's I truly
love the old aspects of it fighting
training you know the practice the
competition
I don't have that for MMA so it's hard
to to give your heart to it something
that you don't have the passion to it
like Jiu Jitsu you know I gave my heart
to it like I did everything that I had
to MMA I never I didn't do that so
that's why it was
I won't say it was wrong for me to to
have to to do it because I don't regret
doing I always
you know looking back as a kid when I
decided to you know to be to take Jiu
Jitsu for life I I already knew that
some point I would have to do MMA
there's almost like that's the path of a
Gracie you know you when you're ready
you go to MMA
so there was a like a Duty versus a love
yeah that was that was not a choice that
was like I have to
that's just the the life I took he will
lead that way
are you proud of that stuff you know go
against the natural love and towards
more Duty
I think
I don't regret it because if I hadn't
done it I would feel there was something
missing yeah so I don't regret doing I
would regret not doing
the the tricky thing is the choice to go
to MMA
could have compromised your ability to
win against Patricia
and it didn't and it's um it's a
fascinating
case study it still doesn't make sense
to me they after all those years you're
able to come back and go against the
best person in the world and beat him
yeah
and I had to because the first fight we
had
I had something stuck in my throat for a
long time
you think so you think about that oh
yeah I'm like as soon as that first
fight finished
a headset I that got stuck in my throat
that I already at that point I knew I'm
gonna have to fight him again I knew
I always knew
because there's no choice I have to oh
man all right well
in terms of nogi who do you think is the
best no-gi competitor of all time
there's no question you know this Gordon
is
I mean it's
I don't think it's right to say the best
comparative of all time because he's
still very young I think that's
something that he came back in the end
of when the person you don't want him to
get lazy you know what I'm saying I mean
but you cannot praise someone in the
middle of his career you know so it's
you cannot call him the best ever he's
26 or 27. so it's I mean he's he's great
he's very good he's ahead of all of
other competitors I think
and I mean he's having an amazing career
you know he's doing amazingly well
so I mean when he's when he finished
when he finally retired
then you can I go like
you know what there's wisdom in that
it matters how you finish right of
course it's very interesting
I think that nogi is relatively new
that Noki seen that was not there wasn't
a scene before
I think you started now on his
generation you know his time because
before
like when I was competing you know he
was just ADCC there's nothing else
every two years and my first was only in
the Emirates you know you should have
you had to go there to compete
so there was not even a scene there was
like this one tournament that gives a
lot of money to
you know to competitors to Fighters and
it brings fighters from other modalities
you know to
Marca Venice day or you know some
wrestlers
Greco-Roman you know they can compete
against each other
and they you know they create that
settle rules try not to favor anyone
so that was it so you cannot be called
the greatest dogia of all time if you
only have one torment
every two years only in memories they
have to be invited to but I think now
you know the degree grew a lot now we
have so many different tournaments now
we have a scene you have people that
only train nogi they're fully dedicated
to nogi then you have supervised
different tournaments so now it's it is
now you know now it's professionally you
can do just no dinner which before was
unheard of it because you you have one
or two Thomas if you cannot be called a
no-gi Fighter fighting one so two one
seven two years twice every two years
and now there's an entire yeah systems
that are optimized for Noki that could
be fundamentally different like what do
you think about the body lock
like this passing with the body lock I I
don't know if you get an understanding
of it yeah that I think it's okay
it's uh it's a popular way to uh what is
it
to maybe to apply to stay tight to stay
tuned very close to your parents your
your opponent so he can't push create
distance he can push away but somehow it
uh shuts down the hips as well
yep makes it more difficult to yeah kind
of trap your legs you'd see your back
gets stuck on against the floor
are you like scientifically
curious about these new developments do
you think do you do you have answers in
your head to them
most
so body lock is one interesting one
obviously foot locks is another and
that'll mean just the full locks but the
whole like control aspect of foot locks
that's interesting and there's other
there's other interesting stuff John is
really into uh
um
the wrestling aspect but not wrestling
wrestling but wrestling everywhere Jiu
Jitsu at all levels of the plane
um that's that's very interesting
because you know obviously you just was
not really been you know unlike like
Freestyle Wrestling and so on has not
been this like a systematic scientific
rigorous exploration of wrestling it's
like you're on your feet and you're on
the ground not
academic he tried to you know numbers
mathematic everything well you kind of
are too yeah
oh I mean that
I am because you have to understand what
you're doing you know there's a
everything there's a step by step
like logistic like details every single
move there's a reason for it you know
there's things around that happens it's
the more you know the better you are
right the more knowledgeable
compared to whatever
so I think with the foot locks with the
nogi like if you look back
you know if you think of used to be seen
as a really bad thing to attack the foot
it wasn't seen as a good options of
attack
mainly what is a respectable gentleman
don't attack the lake or what no because
if you look back you know the Thomas the
one they were created all the rules and
everything else was to simulate a real
fight with no punches we're now having a
ghee I mean if you ask what is Jiu Jitsu
like what are you trying what's the main
goal of jiu jitsu to dominate your
opponent what's the middle of fighting
it's refining it's of course submission
is the ultimate goal
but the the you know before that the
main goal is to dominate you like we're
fighting I have to dominate you and then
the submission comes
and foot locks it's I don't require any
domination on you I don't I I don't need
to be in a dominant position to attack
your foot and is this if I attack your
foot you're still free to knock me out
if your body goes down to my foot I can
still come close to you or stand up and
I'll punch you so it's not a good
position to be in a real fight
yeah to attacking the foot I mean how
many times you've seen that going bad
they're going bad in in MMA fight I mean
of course you had you know some sort of
success with the hookup it's no
questions but how many times went wrong
people who are knocked out attacking
their foot so you can't say it's the
best position to be it's it's okay to go
but it's a very high risky position to
go so that's why it's not in a real
situation it's not seen as a good thing
so when you translate that to jiu jitsu
and attacking the foot is not seen as a
good thing because when you reflect that
to a real situation it's not going to go
down well
so he was always seen as a as an easy
way out you know easy cut you're trying
you're trying to do the easy path you
can't pass my guard you can't dominate
me
and then you're trying to attack my foot
that's why I was always seen as a you
know it's not as a best a great
submission of which win but the sad side
effect of that is it was completely
underdeveloped because of that
of course so people never really
developed that but now they do the
torments the the fighting it got
completely not completely but you got
some it's not longer seen as you know as
a simulation of the real thing now is uh
now's a sport it's only seen as a sport
so now it doesn't matter if you attack
my foot you cannot punch me so why is it
bad now to attack the foot
this is not seen as a bad thing anymore
and
it now it got really developed
I don't know that's another
Bear versus Shark question but you know
there is
um
in a street self-defense situation it's
possible to imagine where foot locks
would be effective for a highly but I
guess if you invest 10 000 hours it's
better to invest it in chokes yeah to
dominate you if I'm you know if I were
fighting
it's way better for me to be on your
side control on the mount where I can
pin you'll be completely safe then to
stay inside your legs trying to attack
your foot
but people would argue that there's a
lot of very dominant controlling
positions in the whole football game
right it is but it can go bad very
quickly yeah just no it I mean this
there's some great ways to control
someone that he cannot Escape but it can
go bad very quickly that's the thing
well even back control can go bad very
quickly on the street
so Mount I don't know is mount a really
good position but then then there's no
good position then
there's no every every position there's
a risk okay
attacking the foot is a way higher risk
than side control mount back
as I'm saying the back is not the best
way to pin someone unless you underneath
me
because I if you try to rotate I can
sacrifice the back and just allow you
push be in the mouth okay there you go
would you prefer Mount or back Mount or
they're flattened like uh
still Mount sorry I gotta get you
uh so yeah going back to Gordon what do
you think makes that guy so good we were
just a ADCC got to see him uh
historically dominant performance
he's dedication
the way he trains and how much he trains
and of course you have to add his mind
his belief
to really try to be good
the best or you know I don't know what
his goals are but I know he's trying to
be better than his opponents so his
belief are very strong
his dedication he probably trains more
than everybody else
I mean I'm I haven't seen firsthand it
but from what I hear interviews with him
and everybody else training I you know
the way everybody trains yeah you know
trying to for my
uh little knowledge I have I I'll bet he
trains more than everybody else and most
important how he trains
and when I I kind of already knew but
when I heard John podcast with you the
other day John was explaining the
preparation the training for the ADCC
and that kind of gave me a very strong
idea how they've been training all these
years
so you know when we said it's you have
to work on your weakness so you have no
weakness
he trains a lot on his weakness which
not everyone does that you know if you
look although I'm not gonna name but you
know or the main schools when like very
strong competitors great comparatus so
super tough people
but super tough
not great
because they train they Spa very hard
that makes them tough
if you want to be good you have to work
on your weakness
because
when you spaw like we're saying how many
times you're gonna practice
Escape in a bad position like a
submission hold or a pinning position
side control Mount or this very little
the amount time you get to spend on
those positions if you don't start there
so that
he's very smart the way he trains and
part of that is also cerebral it's not
just putting yourself in those positions
but talking through different ideas like
they they talk
they like experiment
it's very like at at first glance it's
like philosophical almost
is you're trying to create systems
constantly trying to understand how this
fits into this big picture and and then
it goes back to what is Jiu Jitsu what
is fighting he's fighting for dominance
you know he's fighting for the ultimate
dominance positions which is back him
out there's no others and from that you
finish so if you look back at his you
know over the years thought you know of
his past fights
before he used to mainly focus in legs
and over the past few years now he's
mainly focusing in finishing from the
mountain back
but that's when he became really good
uh so part of that is Mr John Donahue
what do you think you've you've you've
known John for a long time what makes
that guy
interesting uh special and and good what
have you learned about Jiu Jitsu in life
from John donoher he's super smart
I mean eccentric and he leaves
through Jiu Jitsu he's 24 7 thinking
better ways to teach how to make his
competitors better
and that as a coach when you have that
dedication as a coach that it makes the
most difference of your athletes like
which other big team you have that coach
with that motivation
all the other
schools is either someone that competes
that push the training like on drug
overall it's not he's one of the
competitors so he brings the hype in
everyone else but he doesn't have the
time he doesn't spend the time working
individually I mean I'm sure he does but
he's limited because he's also a
competitor
and you know looking
most of the other big schools like
you don't have that nowadays all the
leaders the the main coaches for The
Other big schools they have other things
all the things in their lives they could
not don't fully dedicate it to the
athletes John does
you know look at the interview he spends
hours and hours a day studying how can
await a system you know to make his
athletes better
look at the results
I enjoy just sitting back and forth you
can actually just get him you control
him essentially by sending interesting
videos and you could just see his mind
he's gonna do research on that because I
kept sending him videos of bears because
he claimed
that a lion would beat a bear because
I'd love to get your take on this okay
so the bear is much bigger much stronger
but his take is that the Bears don't
have experience of fighting to the death
that's not part of the culture they're
more scared in fact he keeps sending me
footage of like even like a small
mountain lion scaring a bear away
because they're they don't want to fight
uh
so his idea is that it really matters
your life experience how much you fight
it's not necessarily the skill
um like the dimensions the the
characteristics you have
uh but then I send him I'll show you
people should
um Google this it's bears fighting of
any kind and it's it's pretty much the
most epic thing ever
here I'll show you
like look at these guys the cardio
though is interesting you know it's
funny I was going to mention that
because I was you know flipping to
internet I came I came
around that video look how big these
guys are no they huge but she they don't
buy each other
you think it's just playing they're
trying to no intimidating because they
don't want to get hurt
so they try to size each other up you
know they they'll see the whole fighting
his sizing each other up there's a lot
of pushing and the the the fur is so
thick so the cloth doesn't really damage
much
and they're using the tree so maybe they
they yeah they're I mean there is bites
but see there's very little
so the whole time they trying to
intimidate the other one like winning
the fight by their size
and mostly about like the way drunk
college kids fight which is like some
kind of display of dominance versus
actual yeah they're not fighting to kill
and bear or tiger you know they they
fight to Finish unless the odd one runs
away like one will die
yeah the Lions attacks yeah I uh well
look at the cardio look how bad the
cardio is I wonder how
uh my favorite part is when one of them
just like stands behind a tree it says
all right he's holding things
let me catch my breath he sits down he's
like all right you can't it's over
it's like uh it's the equivalent in the
in the in the forest tapping out all
right all right you got me yeah look
they're both like uh just shot
and but see the thing is that I was
trying to make an argument for is that
we get this rare footage it's not rare I
mean there's like hundreds of videos but
it's not millions of videos because
there's a huge number of bears and I was
trying to say that there's some badass
bear we don't know about
because he just goes in there
and just does work
and we just don't know about it because
he's
like ever see the thing is if you kill a
lot of other animals you probably have a
territory that nobody's gonna mess with
you so it's very hard to catch the uh
the
like the Hydra Gracie of bears you know
he's just gonna be sitting there doing
nothing so I don't know I don't know I
feel like
of course when you Corner him John will
say that if you put a bear and a line in
a cage the bear will win if it's like if
it's the if if they're forced to be to
the death but
I don't know oh let me ask you another
ridiculous thing before I ask you
serious questions
um so Joe Rogan thinks that a tie
um
is an effective way to attack somebody I
don't know if I I can't believe I
haven't in the time in Vegas I didn't
talk to you about this I think it's not
have you ever explored this it says so
as the best choker in the world have you
ever explored the use because like
Jiu-Jitsu has the jacket but the tie
to me is a pretty shitty uh way to choke
somebody like intuitively it thinks like
it's a good way but it can slide around
it's it feels like if it feels like
there's no uh there's no way to really
pin you would need to right so you use
it the way you use a belt yeah
essentially yeah but then I would guess
so yeah
I don't I don't think it's and I think
if it gives you it actually has the
reverse effect which it gives you the
the false sense of confidence that you
can use it
and instead it'll just distract you so
you think is a stronger way than the
call
or just a strong way yeah
yeah I don't see how
maybe just like in a street fight
scenario right like um but by the time
you grab the tie the guy goes punch your
nose yeah what what uh what George Saint
Pierre thinks is the best use of the
ties to actually like a um what do you
call that so basically to all balance
them
which is an interesting point to like um
yeah but you could use the jacket for
the same kind of thing
yeah I don't know I haven't really fully
tested it it's a okay for that
perspective of unbalancing of balancing
the person
it can be yeah because you you know you
have control of the person's neck the
color you know the jacket moves so for
the purpose of off balance in the person
I would agree with George
see the thing is that's the thing about
martial arts is you can say all kinds of
bullshit
but until you really test it in uh over
a period of years the competition you
won't really know I think like that's
where my gut says
um just how easily the time moves
my gut says the collar there is
something really powerful about the
jacket there's like the way it sits
I mean the fact that the arms trap it
from rotating
yeah like it's a weird piece of clothing
it's a really dangerous piece of
clothing that we put on ourselves yeah
like and it's kind of cool that we've
developed this whole martial arts system
that allows you to use that to to do a
lot of damage it's very interesting so
when we're saying something that you
develop over the years of practice over
and over again going back to deficience
of the amount of back by experience of
attacking people
they people always had a much higher
chance of escaping from the back then
from my mouth
so it's I feel if if I mount you get
both my hands on your neck you cannot
Escape if my hands are deep
it's over like that I don't remember
anyone escaping but I do remember if my
hands are deep on your collar or even
the real naked choke is still a hassle
like super clean you have some data on
this is there some aspect to you to how
your body is the characteristics of your
body then that fits a particular set of
techniques so if we just look at Jiu
Jitsu broadly
do you see most techniques being able to
work for most people like uh what you're
saying about Mount versus back control
is this is it possible for a different
body type to mount is not as effective
uh yeah of course
I'll say very big people make sure I'm
out
you don't have to give yourself as big
not big I mean fat oh
they should stay off them out why is
that that's a card Mobility it's like
it's I think that you know you don't see
any you know like those few ways like
160 kilo like you know in pounds I don't
know
270 pounds of a lot of fat
it's you you need a bit of Mobility
and that wouldn't you would play against
you so great and even back that great
back the same requires Mobility yeah
okay so even though it doesn't look like
you're moving very much when you're
doing Mama that requires Mobility yeah
because you have to reposition and wait
redistributionally uh adjusting your
your body all right the legend goes you
got very good by training mostly with
lower ranks uh what was your training
like in that environment
so when I first moved to London I was 20
years old
I opened my school there
and I had nobody to train with
I had one guy that was teaching with me
a black belt middleweight
it was good
and that's it brother was May humu to
the same they said he moved to England
the same time as I did but he was in
Birmingham so we did got together you
know maybe twice a week close you know
when we were prepared for something
if not then not very often as often as
we could but like did I say not that
often
and I had just
call about students there was no one
high level there was no one world
champion in any Bell to train
then you need to create a scenario that
simulates that can simulates
you know like a realistic
fighting so I think on that aspect you
know when people
said you know people ask
why they have such a basic game I think
that also influenced me sharpening up
all my skills when I move there because
you know when I'm when if you practice
with people
you know lower level than you you cannot
there's nothing to to learn
from them or you know you can learn
things and practice with them but
outside
very complex scenes on them it is not
the best so it's
I sharpen up all my skills so I you know
that when I really improved everything
that I already knew to a higher level
but how can you sharpen something if the
resistance is much lower level than a
purple belt okay makes it very hard for
you to skip side control doesn't have to
be a war Champion for black belt
it's you know if it's one is holding you
it can be very hard what about on the
attack how do you how do you become
literally by far the best person at the
cross truck from Mount by training with
purple belts
it's sometimes football belts defense
way better than black belts okay see a
lot of people listening to that would be
like that makes no sense haja Gracie how
does that make any sense because like a
lot of the black belts even world
champion they get to the black belt
they're really good enough what in what
they do let's see in the guard you know
on on top on the bottom position but the
difference or not like very very few
people high level have a very good
difference because they don't practice
yeah then that goes back to how you
train you know you can be very tough
very tough it will make you terrible
defense because you're not going to
practice your weakness so your weakness
still gonna be terrible you can have the
best God in the world impossible to pass
the day people pass to God you do
nothing
like it's you your guard is high the
highest level but your side control
defense or not your mouth defense or not
so some purple Bells they practice this
you know the the amount way more than
that black belt did so the naturally the
difference is better so they they get to
experience the defensive position much
much more and especially training with
you they get really good at defending
yeah and then over and over again you
attack them with the same thing over and
over again and didn't know what's coming
they will block they will develop a
defense over that yeah way better than
most other high-level blackboards so
both put yourself into really bad
positions with lower ranks and just keep
attacking the same way over and over and
over
yeah
and with that you were able to be at the
top of the world at the World
Championships yeah
I mean can you give some like what was
the preparation like to a world
championship with lower ranks I mean
um I did a lot of boxing a lot of
conditioning no but the conditioning is
but they won't seem to help me extremely
living in England in London was training
Judo at the Budokai in London
that helped me massively because he he
gave me the motivation to learn
something new because it you know that
by then at the Budokai you know the
stand-up was I'm sure today it is too
but by them was even higher than it is
today like there was some very high
level Judo guys training there and
I mean the first time I went there my
stand-up was terrible compared to theirs
I mean was was bad but compared to them
was terrible so I was getting through
like a child
and that motivated me to kept to keep
coming back and and get better
so that made my Jujitsu much stronger I
became my base got better my top game
improved
my pressure game improved
did uh this Neil Adams train uh Ray
Stevens when he I've never met
neurologist
is that he's the voice of Judo I don't
know if you watched the tournaments he's
uh incredible yeah Frank Stevens is a
you know Superman and silver medalists
in the Olympics he won European he won a
lot so he did some Judo training what's
your favorite throw like uh
if I would pick one so that made you
better at Jujitsu as well yeah yeah
okay and and back then like for the
first I'll say maybe three years maybe
four
I went to Brazil for like two months
before every major tournament yeah so I
said you know I moved away from the
school and I really focused I was
really well prepared with my jewelry and
everything else sharpen up my skus and
then went going to Brazil to train with
like really high level people
so that way I would manage it to compete
in the highest level what uh advice
would you give to let's start with a
complete beginner
so
um you know a bunch of people come up to
me they still want to start doing Jiu
Jitsu what advice would you
give them
try to absorb as much technique as you
can and try to be as relaxed as you can
don't
you know don't desperately try to
fight so hard
like learn
and move slow
move slow and relax that's the hardest
thing to do
the hardest you know you know what I
find with people it seems like it's hard
to even know that you're not relaxed
it's it's like the introspection
they don't even know what it feels like
to relax not even know they tense yeah
right they're trying to relax you look
how you see what what do you mean relax
I'm relaxed exactly exactly
you feel it and in terms of going slow
they're like yeah where I'm going slow
no you're you're not uh yeah there's
there's a there's a grace and elegance
of movement that you could probably pick
up from a lot of other disciplines like
for me I think that came from just
learning piano piano at a young age this
for um I think any Mobility thing to
learn how to move efficiently you have
to know how to relax it's just the fact
that you can like the body can be tense
so it could be relaxed just knowing that
fact now imagine you showed the stints
yeah play piano well no yeah everything
has to be real life I guess some of that
is mind too but just knowing that and
being self-aware and you but see like
even me
um
you know approaching a thing I'm not
I don't know anything about being a
beginner you're going to tense up no
matter and like it actually takes a
conscious effort to think to relax I
mean that's massively that's why
learning things as an adult is much
harder than as a child like it's very
hard and as an adult
it's like to get to the highest level
it's not possible
because you will never relax
for the way you should yeah relax in a
way that you become like water but then
you solidify in the right places
yeah
is there advice you can give to an adult
so like somebody that has a job like a
hobbyist like how to progress I mean
dude train this just need to train as
much as you can no you know five seven
days a week because you get gonna get
injured I mean two three times a week to
start is the best way to to you know to
to to to to initiate your judicial
journey and practice the same thing over
and over again when they don't work it's
just because you're not doing well not
because you know you have to learn
something else
do you see some value in just picking a
set of techniques that seem to seem to
draw your heart in like for example I'll
give you an example you'll get a yell at
me
but
uh I never learned the close guard
well
it just never connected with me you
could say it's body mechanics whatever
it doesn't matter the point is it's just
like my heart
never connected with it uh you know the
way I Justified it to myself is I felt
like when you're bad you're using the
close guard just like you could use the
half guard to stall so I was really
drawn to the butterfly guard as a
beginner because I thought that I have
or open guard in general uh there's I
have no options to stall so I'm going to
learn my thinking was let me do the
guard that enforces me to learn and then
I fell in love with the butterfly garden
open guard and so on and I never I never
really understood the close guard
and the other thinking was
do I really need to understand the
closed guard because it's always by
choice that I go there
so I can avoid not I mean you can avoid
anything you want
I mean you don't have to do anything
well in this life yeah it doesn't make
you complete yes that means you want to
be complete as a this is the question
how valuable is it to be complete
to get good
depends how good you want to be okay
let's go uh well there's several
questions there yeah okay like to be the
best in the world do you need to be
complete of course
the best in the world of course you have
to be complete otherwise you somebody's
gonna be
better than you but what about like two
so to understand to defend you have to
be also good at the offense and in every
single position
otherwise you you have a weakness and
someone can
capitalizing that weakness okay what
about to be like a hobbyist and you
don't have to but can you or this is so
bad I mean it's not bad I'm nothing is
bad I mean if as a hobbyist you start
late I mean this it doesn't matter how
far you're gonna get as long as you
enjoy it just train as much as you can
if it's twice a week twice a week it is
you you'll be limited how good you will
be training twice a week of course
then the guy that trains twice a day you
know this is the more train the better
you get but you have to select what you
train that's what I'm asking so I don't
know yes but like for how long like
there was some point in your life that
you might try something
so if you like it noted at some point on
your life that you might okay let me try
close guard you might not like it now
maybe in two three years from now well
still don't like it I kept trying it
listen because listen it's very
difficult to get any respect and you
just get it's hard to get to black belt
and Beyond in Jiu Jitsu at a respectable
place
and not have a good close guard close
guard is then don't do it it's not
necessary I'm being a rebel no no it's
not it's I'll say because it's not it's
not a position that
you want the pressure that if you don't
know you'll be in trouble you're not
going to be in trouble not to know the
close guard you're just gonna go
straight for open guard I mean that
that's not a problem the main limitation
is if you don't do a close guard a lot
that you don't quite
you don't get a full complete picture of
understanding how to attack close guard
when somebody puts you into a close
guard when you're on top so it's nice to
know both sides if it's just understand
yeah but you can have a pretty good
understanding of how to defend from the
top and not having any bottom I mean
some of it is also just like the length
of legs and just the the geometry of
your body
uh Nick I'm sure Marcelo Garcia is a
good close guard but I don't I've never
seen that that's exactly that's the
point
in theory Theory you can imagine it but
like for a hobbyist I think it's
interesting to think of that like
is it possible to
is it possible to focus on a small set
of techniques that help you to develop
of course still into a good job yeah of
course and still enjoying and still be
most people Hobbies
in the judicial World 99 let me put
their competes even the people that
compete one percent max and you have
high level competitors
have no clue how close God is okay thank
you for me no I think you would say that
most people don't have an Coast Guard is
such a
a such a difficult position to
understand For Me Maybe One Day we're
brainwash yeah good I I felt it's too
easy to stall
uh versus attack
that that was my main concern is like I
want to be forced in every way to
um to always be attacking to always be
moving to always be and it felt like if
I got really good I've seen it happen
with half guard too it's like when
people get really good at half guard it
just feels stully if you just look at
this at the matches and so on it's you
just slow things down to a thing that's
not
you don't get reps on learning you don't
get action in interesting ways so that
was my worry that I'll get old and fat
and just sit in close guard all day
holding on to the white belts trying to
kill me because it's also I mean that's
the other thing for hobbyists and for
everyone
is to like when you first start I think
you have to relax
in the face of the fact that you're just
getting your ass kicked non-stop yeah
that can also be really tough on the ego
I think the probably the right way to
see that is you're growing as a person
you see that clearly when they are like
in a bad position let's say side mount
or mount
like a beginner
he will never relax from those positions
the moment that you say go they like
trying to
push you out and explode there's no
relaxation and work on the Defenders
like no it's a out and go until I have
zero to give until I'm exhausted my arms
cannot move
it's kind of fun to watch actually
what's the role of drilling
did you do you like drilling I do not
like drilling but I'll tell you why
I think
fighting its mechanic right so it's it's
very important to drill a move until you
learn the mechanic of course it's
important if someone want to teach you
an arm lock
you want to practice that movement until
you learn the mechanic of it but the
guy's not resisting so it's easy to
apply it right
so you apply as many times as you have
to until you know the mechanic of the
moves until you can apply the mechanics
the moment that you know how to apply it
there's no more pointing drilling now
you have to practice now we have to
practice with resistance of course
you're not going to practice with the
guy fully resisting the guys better than
you because he's not going to give you a
chance to practice that move but you
have to practice with resistance so
where does drilling comes
on that is most of people you know they
they flow drill and everything nothing
whatever you do you condition in your
body to do something
is there you know you do you repeat the
same move over over and over again your
body's conditioning to apply that
movement or the technique
drilling is not realistic because the
other person is not resisting you know
the flow movement or whatever after you
go beyond when you already know that the
the mechanics
the drilling with no resistance is not
going to teach you anything because you
will never know if how to apply the
movement with resistance so it's
pointless to carry on drilling after you
learn the mechanics yeah see but you're
making it sound easy to learn the
mechanics I would argue
you can drill as many times I'm not
limiting how much you drill yes you
drill as much as long as you had to
I mean it doesn't matter how long the
benefit of drilling and I'm just playing
Devil's Advocate with you the benefit of
drilling is that you can more
efficiently get a higher number of reps
in
so
what are you gonna gain with those reps
understanding the mechanics of the
movement and what I would like to argue
is you don't necessarily need the
resistance to deeply understand the
mechanics of something now
there's some moves
like I bet you you could drill your way
to an incredible mount
like mile is a good example of that you
don't really need a result
I can imagine a world in which the
resisting opponent is not essential for
developing some of the very fine details
of the mechanics which one I don't know
any what you say amount yes
why what are you gonna achieve by resist
by drilling with no resistance after you
learn the mechanics what I'm trying to
tell you the learning the mechanics
isn't a thing where you get a
certificate and you're done you're going
to learn the fine details of the way you
redistribute your weight you're going to
learn how to move your I don't
understand like inside a dead body what
yeah like everything you do is a slow
process and timing
you have to understand moving okay it's
the guys resistant like he's not I'm not
gonna grab you and apply the movement I
need to grab you and feel when is the
right time to do
like that that it only comes when you
with movement if you're not fully
resistant
how would I know
you could infer through it it's like a
with no movement with no resistance
okay okay let's say you've been drilling
for a week yeah
five hours a day you should be an expert
with the mechanics
but now
how are you going to carry on with
really
no resistance no you have exactly yes
after that week drilling five times five
hours a day the the arm lock you still
have no clue how to apply the arm lock
against a resistant opponent no clue
zero yeah so you don't know the movement
you know the mechanic which is you know
it's like how long you have to drill and
how that doesn't matter it's the various
of the person you can do for a month
after that month is over you should
understand how the mechanic works you
still have no clue how to apply the
movement against a resistant opponent
you will never ever know how until you
apply with a fully resistant opponent
yeah that's the the only way to know
to to really learn the movement yes well
put but the question is can you have a
small percentage of time when you go
against the resisting opponent to get
the wisdom and the Insight of what it
takes to perform that movement and you
spend the large percentage of other time
just practicing the mechanics of it so
like uh
do you need to as you get better and
better at technique to basically drift
away completely from Drilling and more
into the the sparring I I'd like to I
just you're like really no I don't like
drilling I see I well yes I like
drilling I would say uh but I just see
it always bothered me in the Jiu Jitsu
Community how a few people really saw
the value of drawing I see no wrestling
especially in the in the Russian style
of wrestling like the value of drilling
I don't necessarily mean that it's like
a dead body or like a dummy or something
like that but just getting the Reps in
really focusing on the high amount of
reps
agreed in wrestling in Judo I agree that
drilling is very important initial drill
a thousand times each move yeah Judo is
a really big one for that too it is
because
is is is the movement the the timing you
know is the Precision of the movement
yeah it has to be perfectly because this
one movement then is you you learn about
the timing of the movement when you're
fighting but doing fighting you only
need to know the time because your body
movement is exactly the same when you
drill that's really well put yeah the
mechanics is much more important there
yeah but it's completely different for
jiu jitsu because let's say from Jujutsu
like the arm lock for example we use
that as an example let's see from the
closed card even my closed card before I
go for the arm lock I need to have set
of grips let's see I have your call in
your arm right and then you know when
you're drilling I'm gonna grab your arm
I'm gonna grab your collar and I'm going
to drill my body until I can apply the
unlock and finish yeah I can do that a
thousand times okay now we're fighting
we start with the grip the moment that I
initiate the amlock attack you will
defend the amlok will not work
so it's not the one movement that will
get me to attack the arm there's a
there's a combination of other things
that I need to do I need to feel about
your weight you know I need to get you
close to it there's so many other things
involved that I need to fill that only
comes with life life with the fully
resistant opponent
yeah so pretty quickly it has to be live
yeah
and then he comes how you practice how
you train
you're starting on that position and
just saying let's go and and the moment
that we disengage from that position we
go back that's when you really learn
because everything that you do wrong
you're gonna go back there and you're
gonna try again try again try again and
the repetition it will teach you have a
feeling of timing when to go if there's
a you know there's other combinations
which you always has
uh to go with it
uh by the way for the internet that's
currently yelling at me for arguing with
Hydra Gracie about drilling that that's
called you know uh Playing devil's
advocate to strengthen to explore ideas
I'm not actually arguing okay
I forgot to ask you
um
if you had to fight against the bear
line gorilla or anaconda to the death
um which one would you choose and
would you be able to actually to win
against any of them what beer a lion
a tiger a tiger Anaconda oh a gorilla
joke gorilla you can go gorilla
I'll probably choose the Anaconda
let's see
that I mean you're not allowed to run
away though so you're in a cage
do you have to kill
the Anaconda okay I said the other one
look I think I have no chance against
any other ones
I think I have a tiny little hero
against the Anaconda
I just waited out you don't you don't
think it's possible to be
I just um
it it feels like technique can do
something against these animals but they
have so much strength so much aggression
you know that the real naked choke
translating to Portuguese is killed the
lion
so ever since I was a kid I always
thought that made me forget behind a
lion the real naked choke which you know
in Portuguese it says matalion
so matalionis kill the lion so I always
thought that that's the only way to kill
a lion or to you know to fight him
against Allah you go behind and put the
real naked choke I think you put him to
sleep or the name Mata Leone yeah is
like kill the lime yeah someone came up
with the name why somebody must have
maybe someone should be going to fight
with their life talk too much there you
go I I honestly do you think also
actually yeah you you understand
controlling positions do you think like
a animal like a gorilla or a lion would
shake you off if you had back full you
locked in well you say the one that will
have the biggest chance of staying there
is the lion because it's the thinner
body yeah he's smaller than a tiger I'll
guess I think tigers are bigger yes so
so do you think they can shake you off
though I think I'll have a bigger chance
of staying against Alliance back than
any other animal still answering the
question do you think you have a chance
if I start on the back I start full
locked in full controls let's say it's a
small enough line you can actually have
a full oh I'll guess so I mean I I would
like to believe so okay
well like just like you said somebody
must have been able to do it
throughout your journey in Jiu Jitsu
have there been low points because there
have been points where you really
doubted yourself
no I never really doubted myself this
low points in defeats those are the low
points when I lost how did you deal with
the feast
I just went back to the gym next week
and say I need to get better
that every time I lost I'm like I need
to get better because I need to choke
them out I need to submit them
because you know we buy points
it's as a black belt I have very very
little lost
I would say
I mean I don't like to sound like a
crying baby but I'll say most most of
those laws was very very controversial
yeah it was not a dominant clear
performance this has about referees and
points and so on everything that was
since I was very young
I always fought against my opponent in
the referee like it's if there was ever
in my whole life since I was a kid
those ever a doubt
they you always go to my opponent always
always that was just something that I
had to do with my whole life what's the
motivation behind what led to the fact
that you win most your matches by
submission or indominance like are you
chasing because that's the only way to
prove you better
and I've never
I never fought to win tournaments that
was never my goal that was the
consequence of me trying to be the best
like I don't
care how many titles I have I care about
I need to beat all my opponents and not
not win because
win is not enough
I have to submit them that's the only
way to prove I'm the best
to submit them if I win by advantage or
a point that means I was better than
them that day that does not mean I'm
better than them
if I take her down
pass your guard Mountain submit you
there's zero questions with the best
like there's nothing you can say about
it if I foot sweep you you put your butt
on the floor again an advantage we're
carrying a fighting in a win means
nothing
not even means I'm better than you
and if that happened that would haunt
you if this for me is not enough I
wouldn't be happy
what advice would you give to Young
Folks
who look at you was able to accomplish
from a place where you're not very good
to becoming the best in the world at a
thing what advice would you give them
to uh have a journey like that to have a
journey where they could be successful
in their career and their life
to to such a high level
determination is the most important
thing
you need to know where you're going
together
so you need to have a go which whatever
that goal is like you need to set the
goal for yourself
so you know where you want to go
and to have the determination to get
there
and
be sure that you will fail many times
like you cannot let your failures
brings you down because
you you will fail many times everybody
does
so you said you didn't look to external
sources of
uh belief you just believed in yourself
is there something to that where um
you have to try to
like
be your own source of belief
Flame the fire within yourself was it
was that something difficult to do like
um my dad was just very natural for me
I said you know you can surround
yourself with great people
that is extremely important don't
surround yourself with failures
because they will they're not going to
push you to
you know they don't know what it is how
to get there I mean everybody knows but
it's
when you surround yourself with winners
you know you know what it took them to
get there used them as an example
yeah there's a certain kind of Aura to
people that just achieve great things
and being around them but it's still
it's hard to find people that especially
at that early stage any any area here
any error that's right yeah greatness
has a certain I think it's almost
humbling just to see okay any human like
at least that's the lesson I learned
almost any human can do
could be great I mean one I've used
Muhammad Ali as a great example look at
his belief
look at how much he believed himself
before he was Muhammad Ali
look at the you know determination he
had the way the confidence he had
fighting
even on his loss
they never changed him
not when you fought Foreman George
Foreman I not not one person in the
world thought he was going to win that
fight by himself
he never doubted himself everybody else
did he won over
All Odds Against
so it's I mean you do when you look at
people like that you can you don't have
to be a boxer to try to you know follow
his example
but see those are like epic giant
battles but I feel like you fight the
same kind of battle when you're young
and your parents tell you that you know
just with their whole energy that this
is silly don't be silly don't don't be
silly to chase it's harder it is harder
but as a kid it's harder to deal with
that because I mean to go against adult
special parents telling you otherwise
like them the amount of strength you
need is uh is gigantic I don't even know
how much strange you need because that
that was not my case
so I can understand what you have to go
through with the with the force of your
parents telling you you know otherwise
but it's how much you want
it will dictate how far you're going to
go where you're gonna go so it's you
know if you can break through that
you'll get nowhere it's that simple
and actually one of the really nice
things the internet does that I will
give advice to young people is that you
can find even even if your parents are
not a source of that your teachers your
community you can find people on the
internet who believe in you yeah it's
kind of cool it's kind of cool how the
internet opens the possibility of like a
community of like 10 11 year olds like
building shit I see this all the time
engineering
the in a I mean they're fueled by belief
they want to um
they want to be like
they want to create the next trillion
dollar company right there there's that
fire in their eyes and not for the money
obviously but to do something really
impactful and I think that fire is
extinguished Often by teachers and and
uh parents because I think the logic
that parents have
and teachers they look at a kid
and they don't on the surface level they
don't see greatness
right they just see kind of mediocrity
and so to them it's like no right the
world is more complicated than that in
order to get great you have to like like
they they somehow kind of always try to
be reasonable with you and then so doing
extinguish the flame it's weird I think
most people afraid so to even try
so you can call them cowards for not
trying because
you are a coward for not trying not
putting yourself a risk right so
I would say a big part of society
are cowards for never trying
never pursuing
what they really want is so it's there
is
you know a a weight a pressure everyone
most people a lot of people will say
around you
that because they were afraid to try
they they don't incentivize people to do
so because
they want everybody to be like them
because imagine if everybody around you
suddenly I'm not afraid and everyone is
trying and you look yourself in the
mirror and say I was too scared I've
never tried so you feel really bad about
yourself so it's easier to have people
around you that think exactly like you
then otherwise
so they reflect a lot on the kids
it's you know it's Society almost like
pressed them down to be like everybody
else to have a normal life normal job
it's you know don't take risk because
you can lose it all
I mean that's the worst thing you can
tell everybody take all the risks lose
it all a few times that's how you're
going to build things especially when
you're young yes you can recover much
exactly what's what's the what's the
point of not trying you should try and
you should you will lose everything
doesn't matter what's what's what what
emerits
to lose at everything it does matter it
will teach you
resilience you know try harder go after
you know
it's don't don't live a normal life
because otherwise you I mean what we're
here for yeah take big risks take a lot
of them fail and failure a thousand
times
until you succeed and then you're gonna
you'll be the most proud of yourself
like is this this then it'll be
Priceless it's that then we'll change
the world
it is true that most people
are not necessarily cowards but have
cowardice in them it's most people are
just afraid to try you know and a lot of
it comes from a place of love because
um
you know if you try and you fail you get
hurt
um
and it hurts I mean it's not it's not a
pleasant thing to fail I mean you feel
terrible to think you know when I lost
any time it was a good thing you know
when taking when I was getting beat up
at the gym over and over again was a
good thing when I was getting there and
getting smashed by all the good guys I
think I liked it well I hate it
but it's my resilience that you know
make me carry on until I succeed I think
I like to get tapped
one of the most competitive persons you
know I hate to lose bodies I accept I
mean I just I just need to get better
every single time I lost in the
championship I hate you I've never
screamed no one never saw me screaming
shouting that you know I got robbed you
know I should have won the referee yeah
but you know screwed me over I mean it's
okay
it happened shit happens
I need to get better because I don't
want to be in that position ever again
so when I fight if I'm better
if I tapped him there's no question I
don't need to wait for the referee to
decide that that was points or no points
if you know his interpretation that made
me better
because I I was even more determined to
be better in my mind I have to tap
everybody else winning is not enough
it's just objectively speaking
what you learn the most from is really
wanting to succeed and then failing
and doing that often that's the reality
from a parent from a teacher perspective
from anybody from people you love if
they really want to do something help
them do that thing if you think they're
going to fail good help them do that
faster so they fail faster they're going
to learn the only way to succeed is
failing there is no other way that's
what people has to understand without
failing there is no success
since you've gotten a little softer a
little more emotionally open What's the
role of Love In The Human Condition
Hydra Gracie probably the most important
thing
that's the basic of everything right
it's I mean love brings the best of us
it's if we had more love and compassion
from from the other person
I think would will be a more evolved
species the world would be much better
place than it is now did Fred's family
help you along the way
yeah a lot I always had a lot of love
and help from many people that's why I
succeeded I've never got here by myself
I had a lot of people who loved me
believed in me and helped me get to be
here today
well I'm glad they did I'm glad you're
here today I'm a huge fan it was an
honor to meet you as an honor to hang
out with you in Vegas to hang out with
you again today I just been a huge fan
for a long time uh my pleasure man thank
you for everything you're doing thank
you for this conversation it was awesome
thank you very much
thanks for listening to this
conversation with hajip Gracie to
support this podcast please check out
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let me leave you some words from Haji
Gracie himself
Jiu Jitsu is simple
you just have to do it right
thank you for listening and hope to see
you next time