Kind: captions
Language: en
blink once if you know when Elder
Scrolls 6 is coming out
but are not going to tell me
the following is a conversation with
Todd Howard one of the greatest video
game designers of all time
he has led the development of the
Fallout series and the Elder Scrolls
series including Arena Daggerfall
Morrowind Oblivion Skyrim and the future
Elder Scrolls 6 and a totally new world
in an upcoming game called Starfield
many of these have won Game of the Year
Awards and have been some of the most
celebrated and impactful games ever made
to me Skyrim is quite possibly the
greatest game ever
this is a Lex Friedman podcast to
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in the description and now dear friends
here's Todd Howard
is it possible that we are currently
living inside a video game that the
future you designed can you give hints
as to how one would Escape if this was a
video again
how can a video game character escape to
outside the video game
are these things you don't consider when
you design the game
actually we do because in the kind of
games that we make
we want it to be as open as possible so
you know when you start a game you're
always testing it what can I do what
would the game allow me to do and you
check everything you try to pick up the
you know the mugs you try every door you
collide with everything like hey what
are the rules of this world we try to do
games where
you know we say yes as much as possible
that leads to some level of Chaos
but if you were stuck in a video game
you would you would try everything and
usually you're going to find a door or a
space where the designers didn't uh
anticipate you piling all those crates
up and getting over a wall
that they didn't expect right so it's
not a designed doorway out it's uh
accidental unintended doorway out and
it's a it's a happy bug you could like
trim and show just get in the ocean and
go until just keep going and keep going
right but the more realistic the game
becomes the harder it is to find that
door the the bigger the world the bigger
the open world
and then as we do it we learn
they're going to find a way so just
don't try to pen them in usually we
leave like this developer test cell yeah
area in the game that we don't
anticipate anyone will find and and they
ultimately find it it usually has crates
of all the weapons in the game and
things like that
the little hints you drop now will just
drive people mad which is something I
enjoy deeply so Skyrim NPCs have at
times hilarious dialogue what does it
take to build a good NPC dialogue
the main thing is to make them reactive
a lot of times when you write characters
from movies or things like that you want
to make that character
interesting for themselves right what's
their story
and there's some characters like that
that the player definitely cares about
but the best characters are the ones
that react to you so you'll find a lot
of people love our guards
and the guards are written almost purely
to be reactive
hey nice tie I like your jacket do this
cool watch you know hey what'd you do
and so that hey you're the man
as you walk by
that makes them interesting or the way
they react to something that you do
Lydia in Skyrim who everybody loves I'm
sworn to carry your burdens that's a
generic line
that all of the you know house Carls
have and it just kind of lands when she
says it
why does it land what do you what do you
and did you anticipate with land there's
a slight snarkiness in that particular
read of it and you're asking her to do
something and
she's reacting to you
what about the
the trade-off between
maybe the randomness and the scripted
nature of the dialogue like is there any
room for randomness of the dialogue tree
oh absolutely we tend to write them in
Stacks with you know it's a it's a very
small I think it was a small state
machine that just says okay
this is what's happening here's a random
list of things I could say to that
and then some of that
um plays out in ways you don't
anticipate but we look at the things
what are the players doing that we could
have the characters respond to that they
don't expect you know jumping on tables
or stealing stuff or
um
you know sneaking in in the middle of
the night or those kind of things the
more that we can do the more reactive
and interesting the characters
appear
and these State machines how big are
these things are these individual to the
individual characters that's just
fascinating how you design State
machines is it just just a giant I would
think of the AI as one big one yeah
oh so for for sort of everybody
so there's an AI
there's a manager for all the people and
one of the things people manager right
nice one of the things that makes what
we do particularly unique
is
and this is a trade-off for what people
are seeing because a lot of it's not on
the screen but we're using Cycles to run
this which is
we're thinking about everybody in the
whole world
all the time the ones that are further
away at a much less tick rate they go
into low but we know if they want to
walk across the world and we're running
every Quest
at the same time whereas in other weapon
World Games you start an activity the
rest of the world is going to shut down
so that they can really make that as
impactful
we're I I really prefer that the rest of
it's going on it's more of a simulation
that we're building
so when those things Collide that's
where it gets the most interesting
and so we're running all of those people
and understanding where they want to go
and their cycles and what they want to
do and the ones that are closer to you
we just update a lot more it's one way
to think about it
I mean that's really fascinating that's
something that people had um
they're wondering about to what degree
is possible to run the world without you
so there is a feeling to role-playing
games that you're the central you're at
the center of the world the whole world
rotates around you as it does in normal
life like when we walk around it there's
a
when you forget yourself you start to
take yourself very seriously like you
are the center of the world uh you
forget that there's eight billion people
on Earth and if you gotta have lies
that's actually a sobering realization
that they all have really interesting
life stories and they have their worries
they suffer in different
complicated ways
and yet
when you play a role-playing game
there's a
I mean both computationally from a
storytelling perspective you wonder if
the world goes on without you like if
you come back if you take a break and
you come back is there still a bustling
town that now has a history since you
have last visited so to what degree can
you create a world that goes on without
you or goes on at the same time as you
do your thing whatever the heck you're
doing we don't prioritize the stuff you
can't see so it's more like an amusement
park if you study like the design or
level designers did this how do they
build Disney World in these places so it
still exists
for you the player
so it is fairly you know when you're
going to come in this is what you're
going to see the shops are in the front
you're going to do this
it's just for us to make it far more
believable and get some more emergent
Behavior
that not just make that sort of
the versamillitude of what you're in for
that moment
but you you buy it all I always say like
you know we got to do the little things
so that you buy the reality of the
virtual world you're in so we want to do
something crazy you know when a dragon
lands or a death law comes out of the
Wasteland or those kind of things that
you it has the impact to you as the
viewer
that it would to the people in the world
okay
but still you are simulating stuff
that's close to you it is a bit of a
simulation going on oh absolutely yes
and so that creates some interesting
Dynamics then and the stuff that we're
looking at in the future in our plan is
to push that even more
to think about
how these things exist in the world
first
then we do some of this but even more so
in the future to say how do these things
exist take like a faction in the world
what is their role in the world as
opposed to just their role is for the
player to join it go through a bunch of
quests and become the head of the
faction
you know think a little bit deeper about
the simulation and what would the Mages
Guild be doing in a fantasy world
or the Fighters Guild be doing in a
fantasy world versus just
sign up do quests get gold
and so that when you show up to that
Mages Guild
it's a bustling Guild
full of stuff going on it's not just
that it's bustlings that they feel
rooted in it they don't feel like a
storefront for come here do quests get
experience
is that one of the essential components
of randomly generated worlds
so when I think back to Daggerfall as a
gigantic world when I first played it I
thought like
I mean you're just struck by the the the
the immensity of it right the immensity
of the possibility when you're young and
you look into your future it's it's wide
open and you can do anything and that's
what Daggerfall felt like the openness
was gigantic
and Daggerfall is interesting coming off
Arena where Arena does the same thing
but Daggerfall in many ways is bigger
despite focusing on an area
because of how the density of okay this
is how this is how much physical game
Space will do for these Villages and
towns and it does feel endless even
though you're looking at a map that has
constraints
and Daggerfall actually was a touchstone
for us going into Starfield
for how we do the planets
because there is
there's a different kind of gameplay
experience when you just wander outside
a city in Daggerfall
then you know follow a quest line and go
through go to this place and it's
completely handcrafted and everything
around every corner we've kind of placed
like Skyrim
you know starfield's a bit more like
Daggerfall and if you want her outside
the city
we're going to be generating things and
you kind of get used to that game Flow
different than we've done before and
fun in a different kind of way
we'll talk about Starfield so just for
people who don't know and how dare you
for not knowing but where with
Daggerfall we're talking about the Elder
Scrolls series that started sort of
talking about the big titles within the
series started with arena in 94
Daggerfall in 96. I didn't look up the
years before this this is depressing or
or awesome
um so all of these games
brought hundreds probably for some of
them thousands of hours of joy for me so
Arena Daggerfall Morrowind Oblivion and
Skyrim
so I don't remember arena being that
open world well it's all the provinces
it follows kind of the same pattern it
just doesn't have all the number of
villages and places that Daggerfall has
while Daggerfall focuses on the iliac
Bay
area arena does it all just changes the
scale in terms of
you know one block on the map equals
this much space there is something that
I mean I'm speaking anecdotal experience
but I I just remember it feeling
wide open Daggerfall it definitely was
the way Arena didn't
I don't remember maybe maybe because
Arena
it was so cool to have the just the
role-playing game aspect you're focused
on the items and the character
development you Daggerfall has a lot
more depth particularly in the character
system that's what it introduces all of
the skills and those kind of things
Arena
it's actually it's a game I love
um and it's very very elegant if you
look at the first one where it's just an
XP based system do this get XP level up
very classic role-playing game
um Daggerfall digs deep into who's your
character how you're going to develop it
what are your skills there's advantages
there's disadvantages and the
environment going full 3d
from Arena which is actually like a two
and a half D Doom style engine
um that I agree with you that Daggerfall
feels like there's more possibilities uh
when you're playing it were you able to
like look up the sky in Daggerfall yep
my memories yeah so that's what full 3d
means and then you can go outside the
city you can walk outside and says you
can do that in Arena too but it looks
more fakey right it's all going to be a
flat plane Here Comes things and then a
dungeon entrance is a you know 8-bit
here comes a little flat coming out the
camera
so before we go to the end
uh in the middle so from Star fields of
Fallout and the Elder Scrolls series
let's go to the very beginning what's
the origin story you know what let's
even go before then what's uh when's the
first time
you remember the thing that made you
fall in love with video games
well I think it's partly you know my age
coming up with the arcades and playing
you know Space Invaders at the pizza
place and then Pac-Man really it's
interesting about video games and what
Pac-Man did for video games where it
popularized them in a way that was just
insane at the time had a song had a
cartoon had all of the things
um Nintendo comes along so it was always
part of you know I think if you were a
kid growing up then it was such a
newness
to playing things like that I remember
being in fifth grade when the TRS-80 was
brought into the classroom and there was
a Star Trek game
and I was enamored with it
and they were going to start teaching
some rudimentary programming like okay
would you like to know how this is made
and I was I was hooked I was like I need
to figure out how to make this stuff
and so I was just you know self-taught
programmer and my whole goal
was to write my own video games
and uh
you know by sixth seventh grade I had
written my own much better Star Trek
clone for this yeah of course Apple II
um and uh I really enjoyed programming
on the Apple II then
and that I think was the right level of
like complexity
you know at that age where you could
kind of you were always learning but you
could still understand a lot of the
problem set for like this is when I when
I get on the screen
and I was also into art so I did a lot
of Art and I did a lot of programming
and I was always making games that was
my hobby from the time I was you know 10
or 12. what was to you involved in
making games like how did you think of
it was it from a graphics perspective
like what shows up on screen
was it how it makes you feel was it
about the story was it the text-based
stuff and the dialogue and the prompting
like what what like um
what does it mean to create a video game
at that young age to you well it was a
way of experiencing things that I
couldn't
myself
so you know if you're playing uh
Dungeons and Dragons at the time too
where you uh you really feel even pen
and paper these are like like
they feel somewhat in quotes real to you
as you're playing them you're very
invested in your character and what
you're doing and then I loved the games
the Wizardry and Ultima that were able
to bring that to a computer so I could
you know do it on my own time was very
very real to me I'd sit in my bedroom
and then go to bed and think about it
and then oh no I have to go to school I
want to come home and figure out how to
how to do this problem in the game
and so whatever I was creating was
something that I was excited about at
the time
I made a Raiders of the Lost Ark games
um like with graphics and everything
yeah I was so it was usually you know
made a Miami Vice game made it grew The
Wanderer game made a traveler game I
made and but every time I was doing it I
wanted to figure out a new method on the
Apple II of pulling it off graphically
whether that was editing character sets
to get Graphics in different formats or
how can I enable the secret double high
res mode it had or just things like that
where it became kind of this Limitless
what can I make this do and I had some
friends who were doing the same thing
and then you get into who can impress
each other and I was kind of middle of
the pack I would say
um
and that but but again this was the time
where they're bringing computers into
the school then the apples come into the
school and the teachers
are learning it because they have to
teach the students but then I was I
would say I was part of a group of
students that were like way past that
um and it was very much of a self-taught
uh you know how do you make this thing
dance I'd like to ask a strange question
so at that time
a lot of people consider you one of if
not the greatest game designer creator
of all time
you were middle of the pack then
uh did you have a sense that this would
be your life and you would also be
creating you know the greatest games
ever
not not in the slightest
um no I don't think anybody but I was
very much like that was my dream
at a at that age but you don't think
that that's a job
you know and the as I got older I was
really going through college and I
to come even the computer classes then
weren't where I wanted them to be so I
still kind of doing my own stuff
um
and I ended up getting a business degree
and then interviewing for some jobs like
finance jobs so well I guess I should do
this to make money and I can keep doing
this on the side and I remember I
actually got to like the final level of
like this Corporate Finance job at
Circuit City nice and they turned me
down
and I was like fuck them I'm just gonna
go make video games
so thank you Circuit City yeah
I think they went bankrupt actually they
were based in Richmond I was going to
school close to there and so so what
what's the origin story of you joining
uh Bethesda softworks at the time
so I had gotten Wayne Gretzky hockey
three
for Christmas uh from my girlfriend at
the time who's now my wife
um I was in college
and I noticed that it was
you know in
Rockville Maryland
and oh that's on my way home over
Christmas break back to William and Mary
where I went to college
and that was at this point committed
like this is what I want to do so I'm
just going to drive by and knock on the
door which is what I did so I I drove by
and knocked on the doors Martin Luther
King Day 93.
and someone came out and met me and said
well maybe what and I said well I'm in
college I'm talking about when I'm out
of school I'm like okay well contact us
then
and
I will say I was I was I would contact
them every once in a while
I did work for a small software company
right
um out of school
uh down in that area of Williamsburg
and still would contact Bethesda Arena
had just come out so then we're in 94
Arena had just come out and I loved it
so I was into sports games I like the
hockey stuff they were doing a
basketball they did a basketball game
yeah I'm just looking at they did a lot
of they did like six sports games six
but that's the last 10 games six of them
sports games and and CAA basketball
Hockey League simulator simulator yep
so there was really like sports Gridiron
which is like the first kind of
physics-based football game at the time
um and there's a famous story with
Electronic Arts trying to do Madden and
then hiring Bethesda before my time to
make Madden because they were struggling
um when I started Bethesda I remember
the owner had John Madden's Oakland
Raiders Playbook nice in his office like
can I see that
um and I love sports right so I still
played Madden to this day I love it so
there's an alternate reality where I
made sports games yeah yeah absolutely I
I wanted to make I wanted to make like
the ultimate college football game well
it's always like you know it's like
music you probably listen to Lots type
of music like you don't play every time
but I think of open worlds as
fundamentally different really sure no
like source of Happiness entertainment
storytelling
World gaming than than matter I mean I
just because I love both I love both
worlds but they're two totally different
experiences just like when you might
watch a movie you might be in the mood
for Lord of the Rings one day and then
you want some other I don't know
competitive show or game show or
something like that or watch football on
TV right you watch football on TV but
then I want to watch get really into
Game of Thrones yeah so I think all
those things have validity
um and actually one of the first things
I worked on when I started Bethesda was
NCAA basketball road to the final four
two
so that was kind of an external project
it was came in like hey you you know
Sports get this game done
and then went on to but they were doing
everything I loved it was like this is
where I have to work they're doing like
the Terminator science fiction stuff I
love that they're doing these open world
role-playing games like I love that
they're doing sports like this I have to
work here yeah
um so it started there and you loved I
loved it yeah so when I came in
it had just come out and they were doing
the CD-ROM version so CD-ROMs aren't
even out yet
um oh it used to be floppy disks that's
probably one of what was the reason we
would burn them in the basement we had
the disc replicators
right so Arena was not released on
floppy it was yeah it's I believe it's
six floppy disks six floppy disks maybe
it was eight
yeah but in those days the number of
floppy disks was very very important to
what
the money you were making
so you know if you want to do a big huge
game like well that's just too many
discs so the CD-ROM became this
this jumping off point for the whole
industry where oh it's unlimited data
by the way I played Arena
uh
so that that was uh of course attained
um
legally as one does alternate means by
alternate means right uh on floppy on
floppy disks and that was um
that was such an incredible as as you as
you probably have seen interacted with a
large number of people it's it's a whole
world it's a world that you escape to in
the way like your favorite book like
Lord of the Rings
you it was just some it was
um
it was unlike anything else it was
incredible it's probably I mean of
course as people say it's the first game
you play is the most uh is the one that
really sentimentally means the most to
you that's I think the first
role-playing game I played and it was
just changed everything was Arena it was
Arena yeah I think Daggerfall is what I
really kind of really played
um especially because like you said the
character development was really rich
but just like that you can uh be
feel like you traveled to this whole
other world that's less about
entertainment like a shooting game right
and more about a world it felt like it's
a world like like uh like you're
literally there you can travel there you
can live there you actually feel like
that person versus like a Pac-Man like
um
like an arcade fun entertaining Advent
Adventure game so uh
so you joined
you made it
uh what did you work on first there
I worked well everyone did a bunch of
stuff so that I worked on the basketball
game really just to get it out the door
and Terminator future shock so we were
doing Future Shock and Daggerfall at the
same time
they were developing a new engine so it
was one of the first 3D engines the X
engine the word um there were a bunch of
guys from Denmark actually it was like
there's like a big Danish demo scene in
those days in the PC
and so a bunch of the top programmers
there one look this is not big this is
not a big company maybe there's 20
people in development
um
and we were doing both Daggerfall and
the new Terminator
and so Daggerfall was a bit more again
behind the Terminator game so I was one
of the main people on the Terminator
team and I don't know things kind of
worked out I very quickly I don't know
why like I quickly became the producer
and I was making levels and doing all
these things and it was it was awesome
uh and I like looking back now I can
understand it better but at the time I
didn't appreciate it which is no one
quite owned the Terminator license it
was in like this limbo legally so there
was no one to tell us what to like no
you can't do that so we would you know
pick apart the movies and oh how does he
mention the gun he wants and the wattage
of the laser and all these things and so
Future Shock is a game that I still love
today it does a lot of things that if
you go back and look at it
we're frankly still doing like it's a
large open world post-apocalyptic you
know landscape height map with
instanced objects all over it and
that is still a lot of how we build our
worlds what's an instanced object it's
you know some games every
uh you know wall or building is kind of
unique in its data whereas we would just
build you know these little husks of
buildings and then place them all over
the place so the memory and the way you
render it is much more optimal so that
allows you to build a bigger World once
you build a bigger World much faster and
not
um you know not every single version of
that building is in its own unique
architecture that is going to take up
memory and processing speed etc etc so
you're they're very much feeling the
computational constraints of the system
when you're creating these open ones and
you know what that's the thing then you
see some of it now but in those times I
do feel like every year the technology
moved and maybe it's because same thing
we're like that my age at that time
where every year somebody was coming up
with some new method or some new game
system
and
it was every year that Innovation
Innovation Innovation and then you know
3D acceleration comes along and then
these things come along and then HD
comes along and it is true that as time
goes on there is visually a diminishing
return in terms of
what you're able to do on the screen and
it there's a ton of work that goes into
it now because just rendering this cup
to the perfect shine and material and
roughness and how does the global
illumination off this wallet gets a ton
of work
but you can pretty much do what you want
now if you want to put the time in
whereas then okay you can't do
everything you want
so
pick your battles really carefully and
it technically you couldn't do what you
want if that makes sense how much
trade-off is there now in um how much
effort you put into
the the realism of the graphics versus
the story and actually not even how much
effort you put in but is there um
a trade-off in the experience the feel
of the game
in terms of realism and story
usually we will start with let the
player have as much agency and do as
many things as they can as possible and
we will sacrifice
some graphic Fidelity for that some
speed for that you know we could make a
game that
you know our traditionally our games are
you know we okay with 30 frames a second
as long as it looks really good and the
simulation is running and all of those
things so we'll we'll sacrifice some of
that Fidelity for the player experience
in in this the kind of things that that
I do
um but from like a Manpower standpoint
the graphics programmers work on
Graphics the artists work on Art and we
have a you know awesome team of artists
and designers and writers and
programmers it's usually where we find
as time goes on the amount of art time
that it takes to create
a cup
compared to what it used to be that has
increased so we do use like most people
use you know art Outsourcing as well so
that we're not we still relatively
compared to our industry and what we're
doing have smaller teams what about the
experience of the beauty of the graphics
So like um one of the most
amazing things about Skyrim and maybe
you could say that about some of the
other games but for me Skyrim is the
Outdoor when you step outside yeah it's
the outdoor scenery so what does it take
to create the feeling especially of that
being outdoors of Nature and just like
lost in the beauty whatever it is when
you go hiking and you feel the awe of it
how do you create that all is that
Graphics what is that it's a lot of
Graphics it's a lot of mood we just talk
about it in terms of tone and those are
again going back to my previous comment
the graphics are very very important to
us because and we always push them
because when you're doing the kind of
things we do where you step into a
virtual world it doesn't have to have
that moment of wow this is this feels
real I've never experienced this
and it's okay
I think it's okay to let just like the
time settle
meaning you step out
how does the wind sound
how are the trees moving how are the
clouds moving
um
I enjoy strolling and watching the
sunset
you know how does it land over the water
like it doesn't have to be like hey
let's go let's finish a quest let's go
kill things let's figure out the next
step let's level up like I like The
Quiet Moments a lot and I think when you
play our games you can tell we spend a
lot of time on them
um then you watch like the weather roll
in
um I think that's just part of being
being that character being that person
in that space
yeah the I saw that there's a mod that
removes all enemies I've been meaning to
do to do that to just do like a live
stream where for hours walk around
Skyrim just and then answer questions
and so on that just feels
um
that's a completely stress-free
environment it's just you are just like
you said in this moment in time and it's
so incredible it feels as incredible as
going hiking or some something like that
but in another a totally different place
like an like uh Iceland or something
like that this this this whole other
surreal ethereal place it's uh yeah it's
incredible how you kind of create that
so Graphics is a part of that but also
letting it
uh the temporal aspect of that like the
when the the rustling sound and look and
all of that the soundscape is really
really important in the sky we spent a
lot of time on the sky because it's
taking up much more of the screen than a
lot of people give credit
for
what about the rendering the openness of
it like how do you is that there's a lot
of level of detail streaming work and if
you know nowadays it's getting more
common like frankly the systems are
built better for it
um hard drive speed is really
prioritized like they're so blazing fast
um he takes Skyrim and Oblivion and the
fallouts of that 360 era it's a it was a
lot of time spent on how do we get all
this data streaming in as you move and
then levels of detail so you can see all
the way
but not you know crush the processor you
know what let's even step back as you
mentioned tone you mentioned tone a lot
what do you mean by Tone it's all of it
together if you look at
I think you can flip through let's just
take fantasy you know you can sort of
look at a couple images or things and
know how does Lord of the Rings
different from
Game of Thrones that is different than
um you know uh ethereum like Excalibur
or your you know
Sci-fi channel uh
you know series of the month kind of
thing
um
and so
finding that what's going to make it
kind of unique and usually I lean on
something that is grounded in
reality for what it is
and then have lesser kind of
Fantastical things at least at the start
and then they they kind of build so even
when we do star field I mean it's a
science fiction game there are laser
guns and spaceships that fly around
shoot each other and blah blah blah blah
but it's grounded in you can look at it
and say okay this is kind of an
extension of
things as we view them today in space
and we sort of take the same approach
with Fallout where admittedly things can
get admittedly things can get even a
little bit crazier
the longer you're developing Fallout
content
so just to uh Linger on this so tone
starts at or defining the tone starts at
creating a realistic experience like you
feel like I could walk into this and
this feels like life what's their
technology level like even for a fantasy
world like is Magic how prevalent is it
or are they making weapons and things
and armor
is it for utility is it for decoration
how do they live their lives does this
feel
like a place that you believe that has
some grounding in our reality whether
that's historical or near future or that
it's grounded in some some semblance of
the reality that you and I understand so
that it can feel it's also making it
feel a little bit welcoming like okay I
understand this is that art or science
so like what how do you know when it
feels welcoming and and everything fits
in his ground no I mean it's I guess
it's personal taste some people like
things that are
weirder that have more Fantastical from
the get-go even a game like Morrowind
where we get into some more Fantastical
things it intentionally starts a little
more grounded you know there's a very
classic medieval looking town that you
come into but you look just beyond it or
mushroom trees and giant insects and
things like that so in Skyrim when you
put a dragon in it what are your
thoughts about dragons and tone
how does that fit into tone
that's a great question
the
it's a ridiculous question but yeah I
just love dragon so I want to bring it
up no no these are the things that we we
debate
um with do we include a dragon
why didn't you include a dragon in
Daggerfall that's what I want to know I
think there's Dragon there's Dragon
Lings they're hard to do dragons are
hard to do so when you start Skyrim say
hey look you know dragons are going to
be a theme you start to start visually
you think yeah they're you know you can
make the argument the dragons existed
okay what would they look like how close
to dinosaurs would they be or what would
they and ours are less I believe they're
less Fantastical looking in general they
look like beasts that could exist in
that World
um and then how we introduce them it's
kind of a little bit of a slow
you know role in Skyrim and that the
people in the world are reacting to the
dragons appearing
and that's somewhat you know mirrors you
want something that mirrors the player
experience as well it says back to you
like hey no these are this is have you
heard this someone saw a dragon
well that's what Daggerfall is there
isn't there mentions of dragons or
something because there are members
I remember being sure
that there's dragons in Daggerfall as
I'm playing it and I'm searching pretty
sure
to my memory look I guess someone would
probably correct me like actually there
is a dragon here
um but I'm pretty sure they're sort of
they're not yeah and then
game I did Red Guard which
um we bring back a dress takes place
beforehand so we have a dragon there in
that game and that was unique to that at
the time yeah uh just a brief tangent on
that I thought redgar was a really
really good game I played it as a
and again again you don't you know this
you you forget stuff but I remember
getting um
I guess it was the first in the Elder
Scrolls series to put it in into that
world but it was like an adventure game
it reminded me of another game I really
love like Prince of Persia that was the
ins one of The Inspirations one of my
favorite games like maybe okay I
apologize if I'm forgetting but you can
like jump in buildings and stuff like
there's a jumping there's a dynamic like
Airy nature like it's that like Park
yeah that was our situation
um yeah it was an incredible game what
why do you think let me ask sort of a
dark question why do you think that game
was a flop one of the one of the few
years not a dark question yeah it was
um well a lot of reasons
um game that I love and really got us
going on a handcrafted world so we're
coming off a Daggerfall Morrowind is
sort of in design
and then you know part of our
development teams broke up to do
different things this game would did
battle spire and Red Guard was my game
um
and I wanted to do something a little
more Ultima feeling handcrafted world I
really like things that blend up genres
so I know it's in the adventure game
category but it really does a lot of
things you know it's it's a it's a love
letter to Prince of Persia there's a
little Raiders of the Lost Ark in it
there's a lot of Ultima in it
um and really see what we could do with
the engine
but it's very much I think plays like it
would have had a much better home on say
Playstation or Xbox this is predates
Xbox
right where it's a much more like
constantly Tomb Raider had come out so
do you see those influences of Tomb
Raider on that game and
3D effects cards have just come out and
so okay we can do and it was the last I
think it's one of the last like dos
games in a Windows world so it I think
it missed kind of a technology window as
well as
ultimately not what people wanted from
us
you know
um
and
I felt
I was really kind of the company let me
make that game and it it was a big flop
battle Spire hadn't done well the
company was in really bad shape and I
felt really like personally responsible
like they let me do this creative thing
it didn't do what we needed it to do and
now we're in a very very bad situation a
company almost went out of business
and that's when it got reformed with
xenomax media and Robert Altman came in
and we were starting more when we had
just sort of started and it was sort of
that whole experience that made you sort
of realize someone says okay you're
gonna get another shot
and that's where like okay we're gonna
make Morrowind
and make the biggest best RPG we can
make we know what the audience wants
from us we know what we could do
building a world so there's like
callbacks to how we built the world in
Red Guard Morrowind is a large-scale
handcrafted but if you were to put it
you know pixel per pixel with Daggerfall
you wouldn't even see Morrowind like
because Daggerfall is so big but the
impact of playing it I think is in many
ways equal but different
just you personally psychologically did
you have doubt about yourself from from
the performance of Red Guard like do I
even do I know what it is of course of
course where do you get the how do you
overcome that I
I don't know I would say this honestly I
enjoy it so much you know like I'm so
I'm so heads down like that becomes For
Better or Worse like my life yeah
um and
it's just something that I want to play
so much it becomes like there's a little
bit you get a little obsessed with it no
but I mean you love Red Guard right so
like doesn't that mean isn't there a
kind of self-doubt about do I know what
it takes to create a great game well no
I think red guard's a great game right
so you were sure even if okay like do I
like that game it's about finding an odd
Okay so
I love Red Guard yeah and the people who
play it it won the bunch of awards and
it you know it like critically was a
pretty good game did not sell
and the reason for that again like we
probably made this the wrong type of
game and we missed a technology window
we also thought it was very conservative
we're gonna do this
so my main takeaway was I'm not going to
be conservative again I'm going to swing
for the fences and we've had you know
there'll be some rough edges in swinging
for the fences and shooting for the moon
but we'd rather do that in the land
where we land than be very very
conservative
and what we're putting out there
you've mentioned just referencing this
game uh on a Reddit AMA that long time
ago during Red Guard the lead programmer
made me
made all the buildings up up and down
after you played for 10 minutes just to
mess with me uh just a curious tangent
what What's um involved with programming
in open world game so so we talked about
we will talk about design and so on but
specifically the programming because I
think this question came from what are
some interesting sticky bugs that you've
encountered throughout your life in
creating these games and this is one of
them that you mentioned so what are some
of the challenges of
programming these open world games
I mean there are different flavors of
them right your gtas will have different
issues than
you know the Ubisoft games versus our
games I can sort of you know speak to
ours
which is you want to build systems right
because they're gonna they're gonna play
the game for a very long time as well
which we've learned
and
you can't go through and touch
everything by hand per se so you have to
rely on some systemic level of creation
and a lot of systems that are robust
enough so that when they touch another
one things aren't breaking apart
so there's like a
what are the major systems is there like
the physics of the game the engine of
how like stuff
yeah like
um yeah the physics the motion and maybe
how light is rendered and all that kind
of stuff right so you have the rendering
right of like okay this is how I'm gonna
render the data that I have
so a lot of people confuse engines with
rendering I mean they're combined
obviously but there's the data you're
gonna give to a renderer which is the
thing that you know the audience you
know that draws the pixels on the screen
so there's a most of the engine is how
are you going to bring in that data and
give it to the renderer to to draw it so
you have that whole system of walking
through the world feeding in the data
and drawing it
you then obviously have the physics and
the interactivity
what are the things that are there just
to be drawn
and what are the things there that are
meant to be interacted with and touched
we put a big premium on the ones that
can be interacted with and touched
whether it's flowers whether the trees
move whether you can sleep on the sofa
sit in this chair pick up all this stuff
make bread blah blah blah
you then have the AI which Loops in the
stuff we talked about earlier in terms
of processing everybody and
combat systems which is a lot of what
and the people end up doing combat
systems on top of that AI how do they
react to those types of things and then
how how do they look at the things that
can be interacted with one of my
favorite things is when NPCs will go
pick up weapons in the world but you
don't see in other games and the first
time you see it in one of ours like very
unexpected you can drop like a crazy
weapon be in a fight and an NPC runs
over picks it up and uses it on you it's
not something you would expect
um but I love that stuff and that's
integrated into a larger system the
ability to pick up the npcp accountable
so it's not like a little cork that's
hard-coded in it's part of a bigger
system they they have their own AI for
scanning the environment that's one of
the rules hey is there a weapon
that is better than the one I have
I'm gonna go get it now we do lock off
if it's in a chest and that's treasure
we left for the player but it's in
particular
because what you don't want we actually
have this problem you start in Oblivion
I believe which is a separate level hey
let the enemies go pick up the you know
weapons if they're better so we make a
level and go in and wow all of the
enemies are armed of the teeth and
there's no treasure for the player
because the enemies went and took all
the good weapons and you say okay they
don't take those they take the ones that
are dropped Yeah by other NPCs or the
player that's such a fascinating world
of EX or the design of the experience
for the NPC because in part that
experience
is uh defines the experience of the
player
so how they interact with their
environment defines how you how the
player experiences their environment is
there room for further and further
development of the AI that controls the
MPC
sure we're always iterating on it and
again as we look in the future
it's more about us finding those more
reactivity to the player and also
understanding their roles in the world
so they're not just there they're not
just there for the player to as a
signpost for the player but they're
reacting to the player but what about
you know some of the richest experiences
we have with people is like the chaos of
it the pull the push and pull the
unpredictability is there something I
don't know if you've been following but
the the quick amazing development of
language models
uh the neural network
natural language processing systems
dialogue systems
um do you think there's some possibility
of using sort of these incredible neural
Nets that can have open-ended dialogue
basically chat Bots yep I've seen some
incredible demos I do think it's coming
I don't know when yeah
um and there's a little bit of a
question like what's ready for
real deployment and release
versus
hey let's use that to generate some
things that is then static that we're
giving to the players
um versus yeah it's generated on the fly
but it's definitely coming it's
definitely coming and I think you'll see
it in in the types of games that we do
it has great you know application I love
the idea that you'll be
um using that to design different uh
NPCs and then testing if they're if
they're good enough if they're like um a
little too crazy you don't want like the
the super right but if we go back to it
being reactive some of that bot stuff
you know it's pretty it's incredible
it's then Translating that into voice
and then is that being done
by the client as it being done on a
server is it baked into the game there's
like different flavors of it so there's
still computational challenges like how
do you actually make that happen right
well what about
oh in terms of creating the feeling of
an NPC
uh what's the role of voice actors and
awesome yeah we we work with a ton of
voice actors
and they bring so much to it and and
that's the thing
um
they you know we can write some stuff
and and the best ones get in there and
make it so much better or even ad-lib
things and so we we do a lot of voice
recording and we used to do it kind of
like at the end of the project
and now we do it throughout we start
really early and we just start recording
so we're recording
for years and years literally probably
three years four years so part of the
actual experiences of recording will
help Define the characters and the tone
of the game
all right and we'll go back sometimes
and hey we really like this we want more
of this let's write let's do another
session or
hey we don't think this character is
actually working we want you to do it
you're going to be someone else now
sorry that got cut
do you ever
uh try to sort of imagine that people
fall in love with the characters with
the NPCs I do
like I mean do they get really attached
to the oh yeah I mean I've done it in
games these are like close friends right
like you can like you missed them 100.
actually like whenever I'm playing a
game and there is you know if there's
like a friendship option or make friends
or a romance thing I I find those
moments really
I enjoy them I find them pretty
impactful emotionally to what we're
doing and so
um we've done a little bit of it it's
one of the things that we actually have
pushed in Starfield
so we have a number of companions but
for them
we go you know I won't say super complex
romantic but but more complex
relationships than we've had
in terms of
not just some you know state of they
like you or they don't like you but they
can be they can be in love with you
and dislike something you did and be
pissed at you temporarily and then come
back to loving you so that that
relationship status if it's complicated
that that they're they're existing in
that gray area is complicated we're not
dating we're just
well it's in a lot of games you know
previous stuff you just work your way up
they like you more and more and more and
more and now you're in a relationship
now you're in and you and when you make
him upset you drift out of like it never
happened you know you drift out of it
whereas we wanted one where okay we can
be in a relationship and yeah
um
we've committed to each other in some
way but I just did something that really
made you angry yeah
as opposed to just drifting out of that
status you're in a temporary
I don't like what you did State wow so
some greater degree of complexity in the
relationship with the company a little a
little bit a little bit a little bit
we're talking about I don't want to
oversell that part but sure my point is
I think those things where you meet a
character in a game and you do spend
time with them a companion in a game and
it leads to romance you know myself and
others and I find a lot of players
those moments are really really
impactful and special to them because
they did put in the time that's another
thing that I always come at it with
which is I think people don't play video
games they sometimes think like oh
that's I don't know that's a waste of
time but that's not real that's not like
you're not getting a lot out of that
like well you haven't really experienced
it in the way that you can because
these moments that I spent in games not
not the ones I made other ones when I
was growing up or even now those are
that is important time to me
like I love those moments I felt really
like proud of what I accomplished
and we want people to have that in our
games and the fact that they've had they
have had those experiences and we hear
from them and how important it is to
them it's like
no this is this is really really special
yeah it's uh
it's fun I mean from from a game design
perspective I wonder if you can honor
the time you spent together with the
game because
um
you know sometimes there's a hard break
at the end of the game like when you're
when you when you leave a game there's a
yeah it's a really complicated
relationship actually because when you
leave a game it's almost like leaving a
romantic partner because
I think you spent so much meaningful
time together
and
there's a sense in which it was uh
it was ephemeral like it right this this
is not this didn't happen it didn't
really happen it was good it was like
you went to Vegas he got drunk and
stopped for like and now Life Goes On
I wonder if there's a way to sort of
always carry that with you I mean I
guess with words you can kind of share
with others like this it's weird I don't
like
now that we're in the age where you have
achievements and you can look at your
library and see your hours and games
like that's like it's almost like a
scrapbook now like I wish
one of my wishes was like I wish I had
that achievement list for everything
like back to the late 70s like every
game you play right when yeah like you I
mean that's one of the cool things with
Xbox like we're moving towards that
direction it'd be cool to be fro