Kind: captions
Language: en
blink once if you know when Elder
Scrolls 6 is coming out
but are not going to tell me
the following is a conversation with
Todd Howard one of the greatest video
game designers of all time
he has led the development of the
Fallout series and the Elder Scrolls
series including Arena Daggerfall
Morrowind Oblivion Skyrim and the future
Elder Scrolls 6 and a totally new world
in an upcoming game called Starfield
many of these have won Game of the Year
Awards and have been some of the most
celebrated and impactful games ever made
to me Skyrim is quite possibly the
greatest game ever
this is a Lex Friedman podcast to
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in the description and now dear friends
here's Todd Howard
is it possible that we are currently
living inside a video game that the
future you designed can you give hints
as to how one would Escape if this was a
video again
how can a video game character escape to
outside the video game
are these things you don't consider when
you design the game
actually we do because in the kind of
games that we make
we want it to be as open as possible so
you know when you start a game you're
always testing it what can I do what
would the game allow me to do and you
check everything you try to pick up the
you know the mugs you try every door you
collide with everything like hey what
are the rules of this world we try to do
games where
you know we say yes as much as possible
that leads to some level of Chaos
but if you were stuck in a video game
you would you would try everything and
usually you're going to find a door or a
space where the designers didn't uh
anticipate you piling all those crates
up and getting over a wall
that they didn't expect right so it's
not a designed doorway out it's uh
accidental unintended doorway out and
it's a it's a happy bug you could like
trim and show just get in the ocean and
go until just keep going and keep going
right but the more realistic the game
becomes the harder it is to find that
door the the bigger the world the bigger
the open world
and then as we do it we learn
they're going to find a way so just
don't try to pen them in usually we
leave like this developer test cell yeah
area in the game that we don't
anticipate anyone will find and and they
ultimately find it it usually has crates
of all the weapons in the game and
things like that
the little hints you drop now will just
drive people mad which is something I
enjoy deeply so Skyrim NPCs have at
times hilarious dialogue what does it
take to build a good NPC dialogue
the main thing is to make them reactive
a lot of times when you write characters
from movies or things like that you want
to make that character
interesting for themselves right what's
their story
and there's some characters like that
that the player definitely cares about
but the best characters are the ones
that react to you so you'll find a lot
of people love our guards
and the guards are written almost purely
to be reactive
hey nice tie I like your jacket do this
cool watch you know hey what'd you do
and so that hey you're the man
as you walk by
that makes them interesting or the way
they react to something that you do
Lydia in Skyrim who everybody loves I'm
sworn to carry your burdens that's a
generic line
that all of the you know house Carls
have and it just kind of lands when she
says it
why does it land what do you what do you
and did you anticipate with land there's
a slight snarkiness in that particular
read of it and you're asking her to do
something and
she's reacting to you
what about the
the trade-off between
maybe the randomness and the scripted
nature of the dialogue like is there any
room for randomness of the dialogue tree
oh absolutely we tend to write them in
Stacks with you know it's a it's a very
small I think it was a small state
machine that just says okay
this is what's happening here's a random
list of things I could say to that
and then some of that
um plays out in ways you don't
anticipate but we look at the things
what are the players doing that we could
have the characters respond to that they
don't expect you know jumping on tables
or stealing stuff or
um
you know sneaking in in the middle of
the night or those kind of things the
more that we can do the more reactive
and interesting the characters
appear
and these State machines how big are
these things are these individual to the
individual characters that's just
fascinating how you design State
machines is it just just a giant I would
think of the AI as one big one yeah
oh so for for sort of everybody
so there's an AI
there's a manager for all the people and
one of the things people manager right
nice one of the things that makes what
we do particularly unique
is
and this is a trade-off for what people
are seeing because a lot of it's not on
the screen but we're using Cycles to run
this which is
we're thinking about everybody in the
whole world
all the time the ones that are further
away at a much less tick rate they go
into low but we know if they want to
walk across the world and we're running
every Quest
at the same time whereas in other weapon
World Games you start an activity the
rest of the world is going to shut down
so that they can really make that as
impactful
we're I I really prefer that the rest of
it's going on it's more of a simulation
that we're building
so when those things Collide that's
where it gets the most interesting
and so we're running all of those people
and understanding where they want to go
and their cycles and what they want to
do and the ones that are closer to you
we just update a lot more it's one way
to think about it
I mean that's really fascinating that's
something that people had um
they're wondering about to what degree
is possible to run the world without you
so there is a feeling to role-playing
games that you're the central you're at
the center of the world the whole world
rotates around you as it does in normal
life like when we walk around it there's
a
when you forget yourself you start to
take yourself very seriously like you
are the center of the world uh you
forget that there's eight billion people
on Earth and if you gotta have lies
that's actually a sobering realization
that they all have really interesting
life stories and they have their worries
they suffer in different
complicated ways
and yet
when you play a role-playing game
there's a
I mean both computationally from a
storytelling perspective you wonder if
the world goes on without you like if
you come back if you take a break and
you come back is there still a bustling
town that now has a history since you
have last visited so to what degree can
you create a world that goes on without
you or goes on at the same time as you
do your thing whatever the heck you're
doing we don't prioritize the stuff you
can't see so it's more like an amusement
park if you study like the design or
level designers did this how do they
build Disney World in these places so it
still exists
for you the player
so it is fairly you know when you're
going to come in this is what you're
going to see the shops are in the front
you're going to do this
it's just for us to make it far more
believable and get some more emergent
Behavior
that not just make that sort of
the versamillitude of what you're in for
that moment
but you you buy it all I always say like
you know we got to do the little things
so that you buy the reality of the
virtual world you're in so we want to do
something crazy you know when a dragon
lands or a death law comes out of the
Wasteland or those kind of things that
you it has the impact to you as the
viewer
that it would to the people in the world
okay
but still you are simulating stuff
that's close to you it is a bit of a
simulation going on oh absolutely yes
and so that creates some interesting
Dynamics then and the stuff that we're
looking at in the future in our plan is
to push that even more
to think about
how these things exist in the world
first
then we do some of this but even more so
in the future to say how do these things
exist take like a faction in the world
what is their role in the world as
opposed to just their role is for the
player to join it go through a bunch of
quests and become the head of the
faction
you know think a little bit deeper about
the simulation and what would the Mages
Guild be doing in a fantasy world
or the Fighters Guild be doing in a
fantasy world versus just
sign up do quests get gold
and so that when you show up to that
Mages Guild
it's a bustling Guild
full of stuff going on it's not just
that it's bustlings that they feel
rooted in it they don't feel like a
storefront for come here do quests get
experience
is that one of the essential components
of randomly generated worlds
so when I think back to Daggerfall as a
gigantic world when I first played it I
thought like
I mean you're just struck by the the the
the immensity of it right the immensity
of the possibility when you're young and
you look into your future it's it's wide
open and you can do anything and that's
what Daggerfall felt like the openness
was gigantic
and Daggerfall is interesting coming off
Arena where Arena does the same thing
but Daggerfall in many ways is bigger
despite focusing on an area
because of how the density of okay this
is how this is how much physical game
Space will do for these Villages and
towns and it does feel endless even
though you're looking at a map that has
constraints
and Daggerfall actually was a touchstone
for us going into Starfield
for how we do the planets
because there is
there's a different kind of gameplay
experience when you just wander outside
a city in Daggerfall
then you know follow a quest line and go
through go to this place and it's
completely handcrafted and everything
around every corner we've kind of placed
like Skyrim
you know starfield's a bit more like
Daggerfall and if you want her outside
the city
we're going to be generating things and
you kind of get used to that game Flow
different than we've done before and
fun in a different kind of way
we'll talk about Starfield so just for
people who don't know and how dare you
for not knowing but where with
Daggerfall we're talking about the Elder
Scrolls series that started sort of
talking about the big titles within the
series started with arena in 94
Daggerfall in 96. I didn't look up the
years before this this is depressing or
or awesome
um so all of these games
brought hundreds probably for some of
them thousands of hours of joy for me so
Arena Daggerfall Morrowind Oblivion and
Skyrim
so I don't remember arena being that
open world well it's all the provinces
it follows kind of the same pattern it
just doesn't have all the number of
villages and places that Daggerfall has
while Daggerfall focuses on the iliac
Bay
area arena does it all just changes the
scale in terms of
you know one block on the map equals
this much space there is something that
I mean I'm speaking anecdotal experience
but I I just remember it feeling
wide open Daggerfall it definitely was
the way Arena didn't
I don't remember maybe maybe because
Arena
it was so cool to have the just the
role-playing game aspect you're focused
on the items and the character
development you Daggerfall has a lot
more depth particularly in the character
system that's what it introduces all of
the skills and those kind of things
Arena
it's actually it's a game I love
um and it's very very elegant if you
look at the first one where it's just an
XP based system do this get XP level up
very classic role-playing game
um Daggerfall digs deep into who's your
character how you're going to develop it
what are your skills there's advantages
there's disadvantages and the
environment going full 3d
from Arena which is actually like a two
and a half D Doom style engine
um that I agree with you that Daggerfall
feels like there's more possibilities uh
when you're playing it were you able to
like look up the sky in Daggerfall yep
my memories yeah so that's what full 3d
means and then you can go outside the
city you can walk outside and says you
can do that in Arena too but it looks
more fakey right it's all going to be a
flat plane Here Comes things and then a
dungeon entrance is a you know 8-bit
here comes a little flat coming out the
camera
so before we go to the end
uh in the middle so from Star fields of
Fallout and the Elder Scrolls series
let's go to the very beginning what's
the origin story you know what let's
even go before then what's uh when's the
first time
you remember the thing that made you
fall in love with video games
well I think it's partly you know my age
coming up with the arcades and playing
you know Space Invaders at the pizza
place and then Pac-Man really it's
interesting about video games and what
Pac-Man did for video games where it
popularized them in a way that was just
insane at the time had a song had a
cartoon had all of the things
um Nintendo comes along so it was always
part of you know I think if you were a
kid growing up then it was such a
newness
to playing things like that I remember
being in fifth grade when the TRS-80 was
brought into the classroom and there was
a Star Trek game
and I was enamored with it
and they were going to start teaching
some rudimentary programming like okay
would you like to know how this is made
and I was I was hooked I was like I need
to figure out how to make this stuff
and so I was just you know self-taught
programmer and my whole goal
was to write my own video games
and uh
you know by sixth seventh grade I had
written my own much better Star Trek
clone for this yeah of course Apple II
um and uh I really enjoyed programming
on the Apple II then
and that I think was the right level of
like complexity
you know at that age where you could
kind of you were always learning but you
could still understand a lot of the
problem set for like this is when I when
I get on the screen
and I was also into art so I did a lot
of Art and I did a lot of programming
and I was always making games that was
my hobby from the time I was you know 10
or 12. what was to you involved in
making games like how did you think of
it was it from a graphics perspective
like what shows up on screen
was it how it makes you feel was it
about the story was it the text-based
stuff and the dialogue and the prompting
like what what like um
what does it mean to create a video game
at that young age to you well it was a
way of experiencing things that I
couldn't
myself
so you know if you're playing uh
Dungeons and Dragons at the time too
where you uh you really feel even pen
and paper these are like like
they feel somewhat in quotes real to you
as you're playing them you're very
invested in your character and what
you're doing and then I loved the games
the Wizardry and Ultima that were able
to bring that to a computer so I could
you know do it on my own time was very
very real to me I'd sit in my bedroom
and then go to bed and think about it
and then oh no I have to go to school I
want to come home and figure out how to
how to do this problem in the game
and so whatever I was creating was
something that I was excited about at
the time
I made a Raiders of the Lost Ark games
um like with graphics and everything
yeah I was so it was usually you know
made a Miami Vice game made it grew The
Wanderer game made a traveler game I
made and but every time I was doing it I
wanted to figure out a new method on the
Apple II of pulling it off graphically
whether that was editing character sets
to get Graphics in different formats or
how can I enable the secret double high
res mode it had or just things like that
where it became kind of this Limitless
what can I make this do and I had some
friends who were doing the same thing
and then you get into who can impress
each other and I was kind of middle of
the pack I would say
um
and that but but again this was the time
where they're bringing computers into
the school then the apples come into the
school and the teachers
are learning it because they have to
teach the students but then I was I
would say I was part of a group of
students that were like way past that
um and it was very much of a self-taught
uh you know how do you make this thing
dance I'd like to ask a strange question
so at that time
a lot of people consider you one of if
not the greatest game designer creator
of all time
you were middle of the pack then
uh did you have a sense that this would
be your life and you would also be
creating you know the greatest games
ever
not not in the slightest
um no I don't think anybody but I was
very much like that was my dream
at a at that age but you don't think
that that's a job
you know and the as I got older I was
really going through college and I
to come even the computer classes then
weren't where I wanted them to be so I
still kind of doing my own stuff
um
and I ended up getting a business degree
and then interviewing for some jobs like
finance jobs so well I guess I should do
this to make money and I can keep doing
this on the side and I remember I
actually got to like the final level of
like this Corporate Finance job at
Circuit City nice and they turned me
down
and I was like fuck them I'm just gonna
go make video games
so thank you Circuit City yeah
I think they went bankrupt actually they
were based in Richmond I was going to
school close to there and so so what
what's the origin story of you joining
uh Bethesda softworks at the time
so I had gotten Wayne Gretzky hockey
three
for Christmas uh from my girlfriend at
the time who's now my wife
um I was in college
and I noticed that it was
you know in
Rockville Maryland
and oh that's on my way home over
Christmas break back to William and Mary
where I went to college
and that was at this point committed
like this is what I want to do so I'm
just going to drive by and knock on the
door which is what I did so I I drove by
and knocked on the doors Martin Luther
King Day 93.
and someone came out and met me and said
well maybe what and I said well I'm in
college I'm talking about when I'm out
of school I'm like okay well contact us
then
and
I will say I was I was I would contact
them every once in a while
I did work for a small software company
right
um out of school
uh down in that area of Williamsburg
and still would contact Bethesda Arena
had just come out so then we're in 94
Arena had just come out and I loved it
so I was into sports games I like the
hockey stuff they were doing a
basketball they did a basketball game
yeah I'm just looking at they did a lot
of they did like six sports games six
but that's the last 10 games six of them
sports games and and CAA basketball
Hockey League simulator simulator yep
so there was really like sports Gridiron
which is like the first kind of
physics-based football game at the time
um and there's a famous story with
Electronic Arts trying to do Madden and
then hiring Bethesda before my time to
make Madden because they were struggling
um when I started Bethesda I remember
the owner had John Madden's Oakland
Raiders Playbook nice in his office like
can I see that
um and I love sports right so I still
played Madden to this day I love it so
there's an alternate reality where I
made sports games yeah yeah absolutely I
I wanted to make I wanted to make like
the ultimate college football game well
it's always like you know it's like
music you probably listen to Lots type
of music like you don't play every time
but I think of open worlds as
fundamentally different really sure no
like source of Happiness entertainment
storytelling
World gaming than than matter I mean I
just because I love both I love both
worlds but they're two totally different
experiences just like when you might
watch a movie you might be in the mood
for Lord of the Rings one day and then
you want some other I don't know
competitive show or game show or
something like that or watch football on
TV right you watch football on TV but
then I want to watch get really into
Game of Thrones yeah so I think all
those things have validity
um and actually one of the first things
I worked on when I started Bethesda was
NCAA basketball road to the final four
two
so that was kind of an external project
it was came in like hey you you know
Sports get this game done
and then went on to but they were doing
everything I loved it was like this is
where I have to work they're doing like
the Terminator science fiction stuff I
love that they're doing these open world
role-playing games like I love that
they're doing sports like this I have to
work here yeah
um so it started there and you loved I
loved it yeah so when I came in
it had just come out and they were doing
the CD-ROM version so CD-ROMs aren't
even out yet
um oh it used to be floppy disks that's
probably one of what was the reason we
would burn them in the basement we had
the disc replicators
right so Arena was not released on
floppy it was yeah it's I believe it's
six floppy disks six floppy disks maybe
it was eight
yeah but in those days the number of
floppy disks was very very important to
what
the money you were making
so you know if you want to do a big huge
game like well that's just too many
discs so the CD-ROM became this
this jumping off point for the whole
industry where oh it's unlimited data
by the way I played Arena
uh
so that that was uh of course attained
um
legally as one does alternate means by
alternate means right uh on floppy on
floppy disks and that was um
that was such an incredible as as you as
you probably have seen interacted with a
large number of people it's it's a whole
world it's a world that you escape to in
the way like your favorite book like
Lord of the Rings
you it was just some it was
um
it was unlike anything else it was
incredible it's probably I mean of
course as people say it's the first game
you play is the most uh is the one that
really sentimentally means the most to
you that's I think the first
role-playing game I played and it was
just changed everything was Arena it was
Arena yeah I think Daggerfall is what I
really kind of really played
um especially because like you said the
character development was really rich
but just like that you can uh be
feel like you traveled to this whole
other world that's less about
entertainment like a shooting game right
and more about a world it felt like it's
a world like like uh like you're
literally there you can travel there you
can live there you actually feel like
that person versus like a Pac-Man like
um
like an arcade fun entertaining Advent
Adventure game so uh
so you joined
you made it
uh what did you work on first there
I worked well everyone did a bunch of
stuff so that I worked on the basketball
game really just to get it out the door
and Terminator future shock so we were
doing Future Shock and Daggerfall at the
same time
they were developing a new engine so it
was one of the first 3D engines the X
engine the word um there were a bunch of
guys from Denmark actually it was like
there's like a big Danish demo scene in
those days in the PC
and so a bunch of the top programmers
there one look this is not big this is
not a big company maybe there's 20
people in development
um
and we were doing both Daggerfall and
the new Terminator
and so Daggerfall was a bit more again
behind the Terminator game so I was one
of the main people on the Terminator
team and I don't know things kind of
worked out I very quickly I don't know
why like I quickly became the producer
and I was making levels and doing all
these things and it was it was awesome
uh and I like looking back now I can
understand it better but at the time I
didn't appreciate it which is no one
quite owned the Terminator license it
was in like this limbo legally so there
was no one to tell us what to like no
you can't do that so we would you know
pick apart the movies and oh how does he
mention the gun he wants and the wattage
of the laser and all these things and so
Future Shock is a game that I still love
today it does a lot of things that if
you go back and look at it
we're frankly still doing like it's a
large open world post-apocalyptic you
know landscape height map with
instanced objects all over it and
that is still a lot of how we build our
worlds what's an instanced object it's
you know some games every
uh you know wall or building is kind of
unique in its data whereas we would just
build you know these little husks of
buildings and then place them all over
the place so the memory and the way you
render it is much more optimal so that
allows you to build a bigger World once
you build a bigger World much faster and
not
um you know not every single version of
that building is in its own unique
architecture that is going to take up
memory and processing speed etc etc so
you're they're very much feeling the
computational constraints of the system
when you're creating these open ones and
you know what that's the thing then you
see some of it now but in those times I
do feel like every year the technology
moved and maybe it's because same thing
we're like that my age at that time
where every year somebody was coming up
with some new method or some new game
system
and
it was every year that Innovation
Innovation Innovation and then you know
3D acceleration comes along and then
these things come along and then HD
comes along and it is true that as time
goes on there is visually a diminishing
return in terms of
what you're able to do on the screen and
it there's a ton of work that goes into
it now because just rendering this cup
to the perfect shine and material and
roughness and how does the global
illumination off this wallet gets a ton
of work
but you can pretty much do what you want
now if you want to put the time in
whereas then okay you can't do
everything you want
so
pick your battles really carefully and
it technically you couldn't do what you
want if that makes sense how much
trade-off is there now in um how much
effort you put into
the the realism of the graphics versus
the story and actually not even how much
effort you put in but is there um
a trade-off in the experience the feel
of the game
in terms of realism and story
usually we will start with let the
player have as much agency and do as
many things as they can as possible and
we will sacrifice
some graphic Fidelity for that some
speed for that you know we could make a
game that
you know our traditionally our games are
you know we okay with 30 frames a second
as long as it looks really good and the
simulation is running and all of those
things so we'll we'll sacrifice some of
that Fidelity for the player experience
in in this the kind of things that that
I do
um but from like a Manpower standpoint
the graphics programmers work on
Graphics the artists work on Art and we
have a you know awesome team of artists
and designers and writers and
programmers it's usually where we find
as time goes on the amount of art time
that it takes to create
a cup
compared to what it used to be that has
increased so we do use like most people
use you know art Outsourcing as well so
that we're not we still relatively
compared to our industry and what we're
doing have smaller teams what about the
experience of the beauty of the graphics
So like um one of the most
amazing things about Skyrim and maybe
you could say that about some of the
other games but for me Skyrim is the
Outdoor when you step outside yeah it's
the outdoor scenery so what does it take
to create the feeling especially of that
being outdoors of Nature and just like
lost in the beauty whatever it is when
you go hiking and you feel the awe of it
how do you create that all is that
Graphics what is that it's a lot of
Graphics it's a lot of mood we just talk
about it in terms of tone and those are
again going back to my previous comment
the graphics are very very important to
us because and we always push them
because when you're doing the kind of
things we do where you step into a
virtual world it doesn't have to have
that moment of wow this is this feels
real I've never experienced this
and it's okay
I think it's okay to let just like the
time settle
meaning you step out
how does the wind sound
how are the trees moving how are the
clouds moving
um
I enjoy strolling and watching the
sunset
you know how does it land over the water
like it doesn't have to be like hey
let's go let's finish a quest let's go
kill things let's figure out the next
step let's level up like I like The
Quiet Moments a lot and I think when you
play our games you can tell we spend a
lot of time on them
um then you watch like the weather roll
in
um I think that's just part of being
being that character being that person
in that space
yeah the I saw that there's a mod that
removes all enemies I've been meaning to
do to do that to just do like a live
stream where for hours walk around
Skyrim just and then answer questions
and so on that just feels
um
that's a completely stress-free
environment it's just you are just like
you said in this moment in time and it's
so incredible it feels as incredible as
going hiking or some something like that
but in another a totally different place
like an like uh Iceland or something
like that this this this whole other
surreal ethereal place it's uh yeah it's
incredible how you kind of create that
so Graphics is a part of that but also
letting it
uh the temporal aspect of that like the
when the the rustling sound and look and
all of that the soundscape is really
really important in the sky we spent a
lot of time on the sky because it's
taking up much more of the screen than a
lot of people give credit
for
what about the rendering the openness of
it like how do you is that there's a lot
of level of detail streaming work and if
you know nowadays it's getting more
common like frankly the systems are
built better for it
um hard drive speed is really
prioritized like they're so blazing fast
um he takes Skyrim and Oblivion and the
fallouts of that 360 era it's a it was a
lot of time spent on how do we get all
this data streaming in as you move and
then levels of detail so you can see all
the way
but not you know crush the processor you
know what let's even step back as you
mentioned tone you mentioned tone a lot
what do you mean by Tone it's all of it
together if you look at
I think you can flip through let's just
take fantasy you know you can sort of
look at a couple images or things and
know how does Lord of the Rings
different from
Game of Thrones that is different than
um you know uh ethereum like Excalibur
or your you know
Sci-fi channel uh
you know series of the month kind of
thing
um
and so
finding that what's going to make it
kind of unique and usually I lean on
something that is grounded in
reality for what it is
and then have lesser kind of
Fantastical things at least at the start
and then they they kind of build so even
when we do star field I mean it's a
science fiction game there are laser
guns and spaceships that fly around
shoot each other and blah blah blah blah
but it's grounded in you can look at it
and say okay this is kind of an
extension of
things as we view them today in space
and we sort of take the same approach
with Fallout where admittedly things can
get admittedly things can get even a
little bit crazier
the longer you're developing Fallout
content
so just to uh Linger on this so tone
starts at or defining the tone starts at
creating a realistic experience like you
feel like I could walk into this and
this feels like life what's their
technology level like even for a fantasy
world like is Magic how prevalent is it
or are they making weapons and things
and armor
is it for utility is it for decoration
how do they live their lives does this
feel
like a place that you believe that has
some grounding in our reality whether
that's historical or near future or that
it's grounded in some some semblance of
the reality that you and I understand so
that it can feel it's also making it
feel a little bit welcoming like okay I
understand this is that art or science
so like what how do you know when it
feels welcoming and and everything fits
in his ground no I mean it's I guess
it's personal taste some people like
things that are
weirder that have more Fantastical from
the get-go even a game like Morrowind
where we get into some more Fantastical
things it intentionally starts a little
more grounded you know there's a very
classic medieval looking town that you
come into but you look just beyond it or
mushroom trees and giant insects and
things like that so in Skyrim when you
put a dragon in it what are your
thoughts about dragons and tone
how does that fit into tone
that's a great question
the
it's a ridiculous question but yeah I
just love dragon so I want to bring it
up no no these are the things that we we
debate
um with do we include a dragon
why didn't you include a dragon in
Daggerfall that's what I want to know I
think there's Dragon there's Dragon
Lings they're hard to do dragons are
hard to do so when you start Skyrim say
hey look you know dragons are going to
be a theme you start to start visually
you think yeah they're you know you can
make the argument the dragons existed
okay what would they look like how close
to dinosaurs would they be or what would
they and ours are less I believe they're
less Fantastical looking in general they
look like beasts that could exist in
that World
um and then how we introduce them it's
kind of a little bit of a slow
you know role in Skyrim and that the
people in the world are reacting to the
dragons appearing
and that's somewhat you know mirrors you
want something that mirrors the player
experience as well it says back to you
like hey no these are this is have you
heard this someone saw a dragon
well that's what Daggerfall is there
isn't there mentions of dragons or
something because there are members
I remember being sure
that there's dragons in Daggerfall as
I'm playing it and I'm searching pretty
sure
to my memory look I guess someone would
probably correct me like actually there
is a dragon here
um but I'm pretty sure they're sort of
they're not yeah and then
game I did Red Guard which
um we bring back a dress takes place
beforehand so we have a dragon there in
that game and that was unique to that at
the time yeah uh just a brief tangent on
that I thought redgar was a really
really good game I played it as a
and again again you don't you know this
you you forget stuff but I remember
getting um
I guess it was the first in the Elder
Scrolls series to put it in into that
world but it was like an adventure game
it reminded me of another game I really
love like Prince of Persia that was the
ins one of The Inspirations one of my
favorite games like maybe okay I
apologize if I'm forgetting but you can
like jump in buildings and stuff like
there's a jumping there's a dynamic like
Airy nature like it's that like Park
yeah that was our situation
um yeah it was an incredible game what
why do you think let me ask sort of a
dark question why do you think that game
was a flop one of the one of the few
years not a dark question yeah it was
um well a lot of reasons
um game that I love and really got us
going on a handcrafted world so we're
coming off a Daggerfall Morrowind is
sort of in design
and then you know part of our
development teams broke up to do
different things this game would did
battle spire and Red Guard was my game
um
and I wanted to do something a little
more Ultima feeling handcrafted world I
really like things that blend up genres
so I know it's in the adventure game
category but it really does a lot of
things you know it's it's a it's a love
letter to Prince of Persia there's a
little Raiders of the Lost Ark in it
there's a lot of Ultima in it
um and really see what we could do with
the engine
but it's very much I think plays like it
would have had a much better home on say
Playstation or Xbox this is predates
Xbox
right where it's a much more like
constantly Tomb Raider had come out so
do you see those influences of Tomb
Raider on that game and
3D effects cards have just come out and
so okay we can do and it was the last I
think it's one of the last like dos
games in a Windows world so it I think
it missed kind of a technology window as
well as
ultimately not what people wanted from
us
you know
um
and
I felt
I was really kind of the company let me
make that game and it it was a big flop
battle Spire hadn't done well the
company was in really bad shape and I
felt really like personally responsible
like they let me do this creative thing
it didn't do what we needed it to do and
now we're in a very very bad situation a
company almost went out of business
and that's when it got reformed with
xenomax media and Robert Altman came in
and we were starting more when we had
just sort of started and it was sort of
that whole experience that made you sort
of realize someone says okay you're
gonna get another shot
and that's where like okay we're gonna
make Morrowind
and make the biggest best RPG we can
make we know what the audience wants
from us we know what we could do
building a world so there's like
callbacks to how we built the world in
Red Guard Morrowind is a large-scale
handcrafted but if you were to put it
you know pixel per pixel with Daggerfall
you wouldn't even see Morrowind like
because Daggerfall is so big but the
impact of playing it I think is in many
ways equal but different
just you personally psychologically did
you have doubt about yourself from from
the performance of Red Guard like do I
even do I know what it is of course of
course where do you get the how do you
overcome that I
I don't know I would say this honestly I
enjoy it so much you know like I'm so
I'm so heads down like that becomes For
Better or Worse like my life yeah
um and
it's just something that I want to play
so much it becomes like there's a little
bit you get a little obsessed with it no
but I mean you love Red Guard right so
like doesn't that mean isn't there a
kind of self-doubt about do I know what
it takes to create a great game well no
I think red guard's a great game right
so you were sure even if okay like do I
like that game it's about finding an odd
Okay so
I love Red Guard yeah and the people who
play it it won the bunch of awards and
it you know it like critically was a
pretty good game did not sell
and the reason for that again like we
probably made this the wrong type of
game and we missed a technology window
we also thought it was very conservative
we're gonna do this
so my main takeaway was I'm not going to
be conservative again I'm going to swing
for the fences and we've had you know
there'll be some rough edges in swinging
for the fences and shooting for the moon
but we'd rather do that in the land
where we land than be very very
conservative
and what we're putting out there
you've mentioned just referencing this
game uh on a Reddit AMA that long time
ago during Red Guard the lead programmer
made me
made all the buildings up up and down
after you played for 10 minutes just to
mess with me uh just a curious tangent
what What's um involved with programming
in open world game so so we talked about
we will talk about design and so on but
specifically the programming because I
think this question came from what are
some interesting sticky bugs that you've
encountered throughout your life in
creating these games and this is one of
them that you mentioned so what are some
of the challenges of
programming these open world games
I mean there are different flavors of
them right your gtas will have different
issues than
you know the Ubisoft games versus our
games I can sort of you know speak to
ours
which is you want to build systems right
because they're gonna they're gonna play
the game for a very long time as well
which we've learned
and
you can't go through and touch
everything by hand per se so you have to
rely on some systemic level of creation
and a lot of systems that are robust
enough so that when they touch another
one things aren't breaking apart
so there's like a
what are the major systems is there like
the physics of the game the engine of
how like stuff
yeah like
um yeah the physics the motion and maybe
how light is rendered and all that kind
of stuff right so you have the rendering
right of like okay this is how I'm gonna
render the data that I have
so a lot of people confuse engines with
rendering I mean they're combined
obviously but there's the data you're
gonna give to a renderer which is the
thing that you know the audience you
know that draws the pixels on the screen
so there's a most of the engine is how
are you going to bring in that data and
give it to the renderer to to draw it so
you have that whole system of walking
through the world feeding in the data
and drawing it
you then obviously have the physics and
the interactivity
what are the things that are there just
to be drawn
and what are the things there that are
meant to be interacted with and touched
we put a big premium on the ones that
can be interacted with and touched
whether it's flowers whether the trees
move whether you can sleep on the sofa
sit in this chair pick up all this stuff
make bread blah blah blah
you then have the AI which Loops in the
stuff we talked about earlier in terms
of processing everybody and
combat systems which is a lot of what
and the people end up doing combat
systems on top of that AI how do they
react to those types of things and then
how how do they look at the things that
can be interacted with one of my
favorite things is when NPCs will go
pick up weapons in the world but you
don't see in other games and the first
time you see it in one of ours like very
unexpected you can drop like a crazy
weapon be in a fight and an NPC runs
over picks it up and uses it on you it's
not something you would expect
um but I love that stuff and that's
integrated into a larger system the
ability to pick up the npcp accountable
so it's not like a little cork that's
hard-coded in it's part of a bigger
system they they have their own AI for
scanning the environment that's one of
the rules hey is there a weapon
that is better than the one I have
I'm gonna go get it now we do lock off
if it's in a chest and that's treasure
we left for the player but it's in
particular
because what you don't want we actually
have this problem you start in Oblivion
I believe which is a separate level hey
let the enemies go pick up the you know
weapons if they're better so we make a
level and go in and wow all of the
enemies are armed of the teeth and
there's no treasure for the player
because the enemies went and took all
the good weapons and you say okay they
don't take those they take the ones that
are dropped Yeah by other NPCs or the
player that's such a fascinating world
of EX or the design of the experience
for the NPC because in part that
experience
is uh defines the experience of the
player
so how they interact with their
environment defines how you how the
player experiences their environment is
there room for further and further
development of the AI that controls the
MPC
sure we're always iterating on it and
again as we look in the future
it's more about us finding those more
reactivity to the player and also
understanding their roles in the world
so they're not just there they're not
just there for the player to as a
signpost for the player but they're
reacting to the player but what about
you know some of the richest experiences
we have with people is like the chaos of
it the pull the push and pull the
unpredictability is there something I
don't know if you've been following but
the the quick amazing development of
language models
uh the neural network
natural language processing systems
dialogue systems
um do you think there's some possibility
of using sort of these incredible neural
Nets that can have open-ended dialogue
basically chat Bots yep I've seen some
incredible demos I do think it's coming
I don't know when yeah
um and there's a little bit of a
question like what's ready for
real deployment and release
versus
hey let's use that to generate some
things that is then static that we're
giving to the players
um versus yeah it's generated on the fly
but it's definitely coming it's
definitely coming and I think you'll see
it in in the types of games that we do
it has great you know application I love
the idea that you'll be
um using that to design different uh
NPCs and then testing if they're if
they're good enough if they're like um a
little too crazy you don't want like the
the super right but if we go back to it
being reactive some of that bot stuff
you know it's pretty it's incredible
it's then Translating that into voice
and then is that being done
by the client as it being done on a
server is it baked into the game there's
like different flavors of it so there's
still computational challenges like how
do you actually make that happen right
well what about
oh in terms of creating the feeling of
an NPC
uh what's the role of voice actors and
awesome yeah we we work with a ton of
voice actors
and they bring so much to it and and
that's the thing
um
they you know we can write some stuff
and and the best ones get in there and
make it so much better or even ad-lib
things and so we we do a lot of voice
recording and we used to do it kind of
like at the end of the project
and now we do it throughout we start
really early and we just start recording
so we're recording
for years and years literally probably
three years four years so part of the
actual experiences of recording will
help Define the characters and the tone
of the game
all right and we'll go back sometimes
and hey we really like this we want more
of this let's write let's do another
session or
hey we don't think this character is
actually working we want you to do it
you're going to be someone else now
sorry that got cut
do you ever
uh try to sort of imagine that people
fall in love with the characters with
the NPCs I do
like I mean do they get really attached
to the oh yeah I mean I've done it in
games these are like close friends right
like you can like you missed them 100.
actually like whenever I'm playing a
game and there is you know if there's
like a friendship option or make friends
or a romance thing I I find those
moments really
I enjoy them I find them pretty
impactful emotionally to what we're
doing and so
um we've done a little bit of it it's
one of the things that we actually have
pushed in Starfield
so we have a number of companions but
for them
we go you know I won't say super complex
romantic but but more complex
relationships than we've had
in terms of
not just some you know state of they
like you or they don't like you but they
can be they can be in love with you
and dislike something you did and be
pissed at you temporarily and then come
back to loving you so that that
relationship status if it's complicated
that that they're they're existing in
that gray area is complicated we're not
dating we're just
well it's in a lot of games you know
previous stuff you just work your way up
they like you more and more and more and
more and now you're in a relationship
now you're in and you and when you make
him upset you drift out of like it never
happened you know you drift out of it
whereas we wanted one where okay we can
be in a relationship and yeah
um
we've committed to each other in some
way but I just did something that really
made you angry yeah
as opposed to just drifting out of that
status you're in a temporary
I don't like what you did State wow so
some greater degree of complexity in the
relationship with the company a little a
little bit a little bit a little bit
we're talking about I don't want to
oversell that part but sure my point is
I think those things where you meet a
character in a game and you do spend
time with them a companion in a game and
it leads to romance you know myself and
others and I find a lot of players
those moments are really really
impactful and special to them because
they did put in the time that's another
thing that I always come at it with
which is I think people don't play video
games they sometimes think like oh
that's I don't know that's a waste of
time but that's not real that's not like
you're not getting a lot out of that
like well you haven't really experienced
it in the way that you can because
these moments that I spent in games not
not the ones I made other ones when I
was growing up or even now those are
that is important time to me
like I love those moments I felt really
like proud of what I accomplished
and we want people to have that in our
games and the fact that they've had they
have had those experiences and we hear
from them and how important it is to
them it's like
no this is this is really really special
yeah it's uh
it's fun I mean from from a game design
perspective I wonder if you can honor
the time you spent together with the
game because
um
you know sometimes there's a hard break
at the end of the game like when you're
when you when you leave a game there's a
yeah it's a really complicated
relationship actually because when you
leave a game it's almost like leaving a
romantic partner because
I think you spent so much meaningful
time together
and
there's a sense in which it was uh
it was ephemeral like it right this this
is not this didn't happen it didn't
really happen it was good it was like
you went to Vegas he got drunk and
stopped for like and now Life Goes On
I wonder if there's a way to sort of
always carry that with you I mean I
guess with words you can kind of share
with others like this it's weird I don't
like
now that we're in the age where you have
achievements and you can look at your
library and see your hours and games
like that's like it's almost like a
scrapbook now like I wish
one of my wishes was like I wish I had
that achievement list for everything
like back to the late 70s like every
game you play right when yeah like you I
mean that's one of the cool things with
Xbox like we're moving towards that
direction it'd be cool to be from like
childhood the first time you play video
game it will actually tell you what is
the first game you know what yeah kids
today they will have that they will have
that
and see you could look back and see oh
my God I put a thousand hours in
Daggerfall what is the first and my last
save was
19.
um man I don't know golden ax maybe I'm
trying to think what was the first game
I've ever played
uh no it's probably a Commodore 64 games
yeah
um yeah arcade games
okay
you mentioned Starfield what is
Starfield and what's the origin story of
this game
we had always wanted to do something
where you explore space you know the
explore space role-playing game so take
the kind of games that we make and
give it a little bit of a different Spin
and
you know the other games that I loved
there was a pen and paper RPG I love
traveler it was one of the first games I
made for the Apple II
I didn't uh I never finished it right
I'm just doing it on my own
and I love this game starflight was one
star control two was a game that I loved
um Sundog was a big one in the Apple two
days that a lot of people don't know
that I loved and so a lot of us in the
studio felt it was time to do something
new you know we're going between Elder
Scrolls and Fallout and going back and
forth and I mean we love that but hey
we've always wanted to do this explore
the Galaxy science fiction game
you know now is the time uh to do that
and uh that's a brave move so follow us
post-op apocalyptic
on a single
Planet
uh you know Elder Scrolls series is
uh on a single planet so this is going
out into the open world of many Star
systems many planets I saw that it's uh
thinking about a hundred star systems
and a thousand planets available to
explore
um what is that world of stars and
planets like
well you mentioned Daggerfall we go back
to some of that well the first one we
did it was how are we gonna
render a planet like pull it off for the
player like can we
or do we have to sort of do it where you
can't land on all of them where you're
Landing in a very controlled small world
space that we you know kind of craft and
you would have a very limited set of
those if you go back to tone like well
that's probably the wrong tone
and how can we say yes like I want to
land on that ice ball so it started we
started the game right after Fallout 4
so 2016.
and the first thing we did was can you
know how can we have a system to
generate these planets and make them
look
you know I'll say reasonable as opposed
to you know fractally goop
you've probably seen a lot of like
simulations whether they're space things
or landscape things where they're using
fractals and this the landscape does not
look real just this is like highs and
lows and it's muddy and so we did find a
way we came up with a way
um had prototyped of of building tiles
like large tiles of landscape the way we
would usually build them we kind of
generate them offline hand do some
things and end up with these very
realistic looking tiles of landscape and
then built a system that wraps those
around a planet and blends them all
together
and we had pretty successful results
with that and so we thought yeah we
could we could do this
um and so there was a big design
kind of problem to solve in terms of
well what's fun
about landing on a planet where there's
potentially nothing
because there's a lot of planets and
moons if you kind of right in reality
that well there's nothing on them except
resources and so we spent a lot of time
figuring out okay let's just lean in on
that can a be a lonely experience as
long as we tell the player here's what's
there here are the resources that are
there go find them but I equate it to
that moment of we said about listening
to the wind go and watching the sunset
and I do think there's a certain Beauty
to landing on a strange Planet being
somewhat the only person there building
an outpost and we are modeling
all of the systems because that's how we
like to do things so you can watch
whatever that gas giant or Moon it will
rotate and go and
Sunrise Sunset and all of those things
that you would expect and it's it's all
really happening and most people
probably won't notice or appreciate all
of that but
um
I think it gives them the ability to say
I want to go do that and see that on
that place as long as we tell them hey
the quest leads over here here's where
the handcrafted content is that you
would expect and then here's more of the
open procedural
Planet experience see your long answer I
don't know if I answered your question
there's no all right questions as stupid
and the answers are brilliant so that's
how this works so this is the world's
most immense simulator of um The Human
Condition of loneliness
because I can't imagine a more lonely
experience I mean you put it that way I
don't know that was the goal but just on
a planet alone I just
that must be
I mean just a deep embodiment of what
loneliness is like
I mean both on like when you hike alone
there's a there's a deep loneliness to
that it's like uh it's humbling that
this thing will last much longer than
you it's been here way before you
is it the line from the moon landing
beautiful desolation
it's Buzz Aldrin is it beautiful
desolation is that what you said I think
so beautiful desolation well something
like that but that's just words there's
a feeling to it and you want that
feeling to be real
you just hear there's some resources
here I just feel like it will hit people
at a certain moment like it does for me
with Skyrim like
holy shit I'm here alone
and then and whatever cruel nature
that's out there it doesn't really care
about me
exactly Dusty that's that's the
experience so you you want to create the
whole planet and you want to have many
of them
we have we do have many but once you
build that system I think the numbers
become
I mean honestly a little bit we we wrap
it in so we can name them all and and
have a finite set even though it's a
very very large number but a set that we
can
you know validate and and know about
even though it's a huge number but once
you
once you're Building A system that can
build a planet I mean a planet is sort
of Infinite Space we go back to the
Daggerfall analogy right
if you have systems to build that much
space doing a hundred plants or a
thousand or ten thousand or a million
planets is not it's just you just press
you just change the number and press the
button but you can't you can't name them
all you can't control like when you're
getting in really big numbers
hey what is what does this system way
out here feel like if you take your ship
and jump that far
we do level the systems when you go to
system you'll see oh this is like a
level 40 system and us being able to at
least control that scale is how we kind
of ended up with the 100-ish systems we
have what are the what are the levelings
what do you mean by level levels it
could be like when you look at a map in
a game it says this is the area for
low-level players this is level one yeah
yeah so we do that on a system basis
star system
I read that space travel is considered
dangerous in this game can you explain
that's more of that goes back to a tone
thing
right when you actually play the game
because it's a game like we don't really
kill you when you fly out in space but
it has a tone of there's some effort
involved
and we've dialed it back as we've been
making the game whereas we used to run
out of fuel you jump and get stranded
which on paper was a great like it's a
great moment when you get stranded you
have to press this Beacon you don't know
who's going to come
um turns out that's not like it just
stops your game we found you'll be
playing the game and I ran out of fuel
okay I guess I'll just
wander these planets trying to mine for
fuel so I can get back to what I was
doing it's just you know it's a fun
killer that's too realistic of a
simulation of The Human Condition
yeah I know the idea was well it's very
you know games do that if you had like a
hardcore you're right a hardcore
survival mode that's the kind of thing
you would do maybe we'll do it in the
future
um but it's more of like a tone how they
build their ships do they have all the
right things for safety we do get into
environmental things on the planets you
know in your spacesuit obviously a lot
of different spacesuits and Buffs for
you know the gases the toxicity or the
temperature on on various planets
are there robots yes those companions
are they robots by chance can you one of
the companions the robot Vasco yeah okay
so they have they have uh they have a
name and a personality and so on and
Vasco does and then there's a whole
bunch of I call them generic robots
they're you like we use them for utility
you know okay people we actually dialed
them back because if you think about
well you know a lot about this more than
uh me in terms of I'm offended right now
you're calling robots generic no no the
ones we use the ones we we use we made
them more generic we didn't so we didn't
feel sensitive about this I understand
um if you were to chart the future you
would say robots would have a much
bigger role in our future than we are
presenting
um but that was a tone thing so we most
of our robots are there as utility
robots and there are some combat ones as
well as enemies so it's a deeply human
world very much yes in in terms of its
own
uh so
have you talked to Elon about this about
this game over there a little bit
how much of reality like the work of
SpaceX is an inspiration for the
decisions made in this game
I wouldn't say it's for the decisions we
made but
you know visiting SpaceX and walking in
there it was
it's like the Avengers Mitch NASA it's
like the most amazing and here we're
building the next gen like see the the
dragon stuff before it was uh you know
other people saw it like just I was
really
in awe
you know just giant machine that looks
for imperfections on the surface of
these giant
you know fuselah just you know whenever
and because you know we're in DC go to
the air and space museum a lot and so
whenever I look at those kind of things
or you know you'll visit the space
shuttle sort of overcome with how big it
is and I go stand back by the engines
and think about that thing leaving orbit
you know and one of the things that Elon
really impresses like we're reaching the
edge of physics on a lot of the stuff
where how hard it is
to leave
orbit
the gravitational pull and like so the
engineering that has gone into that
rspace program what what he's doing now
um I just marvel at I don't understand
oh right I'm not at that level but I
Marvel at the kind of human Ingenuity
and scale
I was
on the Delaware Coast last month
and I went I was outside I was outside
for some reason it was dark and I saw
this crazy light in the sky
and I thought it was like a helicopter
and then it didn't go away
and I'm like someone what is that I call
my we had with some friends hey does
everybody see this what is that and we
just stood dumbfounded looking at this
thing in the sky
and
like that is a UFO nobody takes their
phone out everyone I'm with like four
people everyone is too dumbstruck you
would think why don't you take a picture
of this thing
and the next day we found out it was in
the news it was the SpaceX launch in
Florida
and I'm seeing it from
Delaware Maryland area it was one of the
most it was incredible it's just even
just that
I am in complete of
is there some aspect to that that you
can replicate the The Majestic nature
that in in the video game
the answer to that you know I think some
of it we
were doing when you're standing on a
planet and you see you see the other
moons go by yeah and then you realize I
could get my ship blast off and land
there and build myself a home I think
that's pretty cool
there's a minor thing we do which is we
um we have other ships come and go from
the Star ports when you're there so
you'll be in a city and then you hear
this when you hear the engine you look
up and the ship is taking off or come
out that's great there's nothing for you
to do but
it's I think it's awesome yeah yeah
and then that's all about creating the
soundscape to feel seeing it and like oh
that's real that's a ship that or you
jump into a system and you see these
Freighters and sometimes they contact
you like
um it's not all just like jump in and
combat
do you ever think about the fact that
science fiction seems to make a
it has a way of creating reality
not just kind of predicting it or
imagining it it's almost like the thing
you put out there with a video game like
this
like Starfield that you cut anticipate
it it kind of fuels people's imagination
what is possible
maybe I don't know I don't know I can't
I can't say you're making me think now
about other science fiction that
movie I love Minority Report it's more
of like a not a space movie but more
like looking at the future if you look
at a lot of the things in that movie
it's almost like I think those are
coming true yeah I mean uh is that the
one that you do interface this like uh
it's the interfaces and then the you
know a way looks his child's more like a
holographic almost AR VR kind of thing
or digital billboards
or trying to predict human behavior
um there's that there's just a lot of
future stuff in that movie as it comes
to sci-fi to your other question I don't
know I I don't know
well I think it does and it's
interesting I mean I suppose
you're trying to create the most realist
sticking to the tone the most immersive
realistic world and almost by accident
you create the thing that is possible
because you want it to be realistic in
some deep sense so
accidentally can become the possible and
then that places that idea in people's
heads I mean if humans are ever to
become a multi-planetary species
we need
we need to play games
we need to read sci-fi just help imagine
that that's possible to look outside of
Earth to look outside look up on the
stars then we can actually travel out
there I don't know there's power to
sci-fi to do that I guess you shouldn't
feel the pressure of that
I don't know if I'd make the leap
now that's all that what we're doing
might now maybe you know
one of our you know hopefully it might
Inspire some young people who are headed
in that direction alike
Oh I thought about getting into space
and space exploration and being an
engineer doing these things and I played
this game and
you know it really
sparked that interest in me so I'm gonna
go take that as a field and maybe that's
the person who goes and does some of
these things yeah because in the next
couple of decades
a likely a human being will step foot on
Mars which are the first steps until
we're just becoming multi-planetary
and if you read some of the stuff
they're doing uh with the James Webb
Telescope and them being able to look
for signs of life
on other planets it's quite fascinating
and you know recent stuff I read say
they think in 20 years they will
so
it's actually quite encouraging to think
I was almost a dream of mine like in our
lifetimes that we discover Life on
another planet
yeah especially if it's intelligent life
I've been talking to a lot of biologists
and a lot of folks I imagine there's
life everywhere out there the numbers
are would say so yes the challenging
question is what it looks like and how
much of it is intelligent so a lot of
biologists tell me the big the big
difficult leap is from the precarious to
the eukaryotes so like the the complex
life it could be that a lot of our
universe is just filled with bacteria
I believe if if I'm understanding it
right that there's two ways they're
going to look at planets when they can
look at you know they can read hey this
planet has this kind of gas they can now
look at the ones that are created by
potential life forms and then the ones
that are created the byproducts of
Industry so there's only certain ones
that are created if you have a society
there
um and that they can start looking on
these types of in these types of star
systems and these planets but it takes a
lot of time because you have to book
time on that telescope you have to like
look at that planet over a long period
of time but
in theory given enough time given the
amount of space out there
um
we would find one
that would be a cool thing in this short
life of ours to find out definitively
that there is an an industrial
intelligent civilization out there
before you contact them so like die end
your life
not knowing the rest of the story but
just know that it's out there that's a
cool and then if you have kids be like
well this one's on you
uh F this I'm out and I'm fascinated by
what it would do
to the way I think in a positive way the
way Humanity thinks about itself here
like no there's there is a definitively
other life out there I mean both things
if there isn't life out there
that's also a huge responsibility both
are super exciting
for a loan it's super exciting because
there's a responsibility to preserve
whatever special thing we have going on
here this uh
whether you call it the flame of
Consciousness or whether it's
Consciousness or intelligence that's a
special thing preserve it have it expand
but if there's others out there
I mean that like that Sparks that drive
for exploration
of reaching out to the stars and meeting
them
most of them probably want to kill us
so but luckily we have the
military-industrial complex on Earth
that builds bigger and better weapons
all the time space force it will both
protect us and destroy all our enemies
[Laughter]
uh this this is 100 a video game we're
living in okay back back to dragons so
blink once if you know when Elder
Scrolls 6 is coming out
but are not going to tell me
I have a vague idea okay big idea
so like if you have the quantum
mechanical interpretation that allows
for multiple universes any in the
universe where you didn't blink uh what
would that Todd tell me about the year
it's coming out would it be 2025 trick
question or 26. someone asked that
question yeah many ways but never like
that yeah I thought I would try to speak
um I mean there is there is of course no
answer because I wish it was soon
yeah like we don't we want him out too
you know
um
and I wish they didn't take as long as
they did but they do
and look I mean if I could go back in
time would never have been my plan to
wait as long as it's it's taken uh for
it
so you love that world the oldest Girl's
World look it's it's part of why I'm
spent more time there than anything else
in my life probably right so
um
it's deeply love it we we all do it's a
part of us and
you know when you aren't doing it for a
while you you really do miss it
um and when I look at what we're doing
uh have planned for that game
and that was a meeting yesterday I was
like I just want to play all this right
um but it you know we're going to make
sure we do it right for everybody and
we do have to approach it
people are playing games for a long time
you know Skyrim's 11 years old
still probably our most played game and
so we don't see it slowing down
and people will probably be playing it
10 years from now also so you have to
think about okay
people are gonna play the next Elder
Scrolls game for
decade two decades and that does change
the way you think about how you
architect it from from the get-go what
what are some elements that changed the
way
like how do you make a game that's
playable for 20 years
so we're trying to figure that out but
there are some elements I should pause
on that you know pardon me I'm of course
asking jokingly I'm excited for it but I
think Skyrim was an amazing game still
you know I really enjoy it still yeah
and you know what the content the
um even if I think if you step away from
it for a while then play what I'll put
say the vanilla version without mods if
you go and haven't played in a while
there's always a new way to play it but
then if you look at the mods and what
creators are doing to it we think that
is just awesome it's something that
we've always supported we're gonna keep
supporting
we've hired a large number of modders
that are now professionals we want to
support the people who are doing on
their own so they can be professionals
on their own
um and how you create a world that's
modable so you you think of Designing
the game from the start as that enables
mods yeah absolutely
so if it starts with us like everything
we're doing okay a modder a content
creator is going to have to do it use
our tools now we do clean them up for
release you know you because if you're
like a developer in-house you can deal
with some clergyness when you're putting
stuff together when you put it out for
people we do clean a lot of it up and
there's still a lot obviously a learning
curve there
um but we have look we have people been
doing it for 20 years with us
um what's involved with modding I'm
actually quite newbish at this okay and
I'm almost afraid to ask because now
that you explained to me oh I I fear I
will spend a very large amount of time
creating mods well we have an editor uh
you can download on Steam the creation
kit for our games and then it loads up
the world and you could do something
really really small like change the
color of the weather and it creates a
little plug-in file we call it you know
a modification to the game and then you
can run your game with that
um it's on Console now the the mods not
the editing
and it's just been incredible our
community there has been amazing what
they do with the games so a lot of it is
the the the visuals
a lot of people do visual things because
it's the easiest thing to do first or to
build a new space there's some great
things with like I love the Khajiit
follower mod for Skyrim it's awesome
um the uh there have been quest lines
those things just take a really really
long time and so someone is going to do
that
that's almost like it takes them a long
time it's more than a hobby and we're
always looking at ways that we can make
it like hey they can turn a career into
it because it's just awesome
what about is is there any possibility
in doing a mod for the some of the AI
stuff
there is and I've seen some but to
really move it along if they're using
the tools that we already put out there
so to really move the AI along you'd
have to get in the code which some
people have figured out ways to hack in
and do things with script extenders but
for the most part like really pushing it
it does take us which is why you see
when we have a new game come along the
palette that they have is there's
there's so many more things they can do
well I've I've built Bots that play
um the the driving games
but they do that by just taking
um reading the screen and doing basic
not basic it's actually pretty
complicated but computer vision doing
the control but you're basically
simulating the human player
um to do that for Skyrim or for what
some of the open world games that's
literally you have to create AGI to be
able to yep to play the those open well
maybe not maybe you can create a super
dumb like just a two-handed sword and
just keep swinging until look there's
some bot stuff out there that does it we
have we have some very very dumb Bots
that we use to run through the world to
test it that will Deploy on a whole
bunch of servers just to you know we do
it every day we run through every space
we're doing Starfield and then just
running they're all out there well it
does it very quickly it loads up every
place every
every place in the game and runs around
a little bit and then loads the next
place and runs around a little bit we're
just testing like did a crash what's the
memory growth what's the get a report
hear all the places where the frame rate
wasn't up to Snuff
and then we do have one that will play
on its own heavily scripted but it lets
us test
you know every time we make a build
there's a bot that runs through like the
first one or two main quests like it'll
just play it that way we know do we
break anything
because you don't want to waste like
qa's time like you guys broke it again
within five minutes so yeah
yeah so that's for but that's for like
uh broken stuff right I wonder if you
can build the bot that estimates the
quality of the experience oh my gosh
okay can you do that but just like the
number
like how boring or not boring the boring
meter how many times you die
how many times you die death is death
boring or exciting that's the question I
mean I I feel like there's a balance to
be stuck there because you always want
to be in fear of death again yeah we
always we have this chart at work we use
which is like if you think about any
game that you've played that you've put
down it's either about a frustration
slash confusion or boredom
yeah you gotta put the player right in
the middle of that but I've sometimes
put down games from frustration only to
return again stronger Dark Souls yeah
so I mean that that's I mean the
challenge
that's part of it it's well I don't know
actually Skyrim I don't I'm one of those
I mean I'm sure there's all kinds of
humans that you've interacted with about
what they enjoy but to me I could enjoy
Skyrim on every on any difficulty at the
level it doesn't all of it so it depends
the open world nature of it is what's
really compelling not necessarily the
challenge of the particular quests and
so on but I'm not sure if that's the
same experience for everybody do you
play the survival mode there's a
survival mode in Skyrim it was a
creation Club thing it does like some
Hunger it does hot and cold
it does some other systems that make it
you know in our minds a more believable
it was actually a creation Club thing
made by an external Creator who is now
full time with us
so can we actually thinking about uh
star field thinking about Elder Scrolls
six go through the full life of a video
game you've created so what's it take to
take a game
from the idea to find the final product
what are the different steps along the
way
great question
um well usually it starts with I mean
honestly lunchtime conversations with a
number of us hey we we think we want to
do this this is what it's going to be
like I mean look within Elder Scrolls
you know you're gonna do it
it's a matter of when you say okay
what's the tone we're going for right
where is it set so we usually start with
the world
and then
we're always overlapping so while we're
making one game as we're you know
getting in the throes of it or wrapping
it up you know probably by the midpoint
of one game we've had enough
conversations
to understand what the next one's going
to be what are the big ticket like
where's it set what's the tone is there
a big ticket feature or two that make it
really unique
and then when we're finishing one game
we start
um
prototyping sorry before that we start
concepting so we'll do concept art
and for one reason or another I usually
have the beginning of the game worked
out like I like to think about okay
how's the game start what's the player
do first
um we do music early
you know so take Elder Scrolls six we
figure out where it's set what's the
tone what are the big features we
discussed the beginning of the game
which we've had for a very long time
where's this set again um yep and
uh damn it well at least we know we
narrowed it down that yeah that would be
epic if it was like a portal into
another dimension anyway I like to do
music so we've already done a take on
the music uh for Elder Scrolls six so
you can sit there with the like the the
concept art and the music no no the
music we put in the teaser for it this
was 2018.
um we've taken that further obviously
and
again we're working on the world you're
then doing concepting and design for the
world and then once we we're wrapping up
one game we can really start prototyping
the new one and you're usually building
kind of your initial spaces and so we do
like to do like a first playable a
smaller section of the game
that we can sort of prove out and show
to people hey this is how it feels
different this is what it looks like
this is what's unique about it then we
turn that into a larger chunk when more
of the team comes on when the other game
is done
um and that's still what we call a vs
vertical slice so you still don't have
the full team on it
and it's a larger chunk of the game that
you can play and then once you feel good
about that you're going to bring on
the rest of the team
and we're fortunate that the other games
we've done are popular enough that we
can be doing DLC and content and those
kind of things while we're getting the
one going and then we're at full
production
where we're sort of at maximum size we
just call that production that's like
the full production period
and that depending on the game
you know can run a year two years maybe
more
and then you kind of have a finalizing
final six months to a year on a game
which is okay we've built everything now
um
and usually it needs a lot of glue where
we have a lot of
very different elements that maybe
aren't clicking together the way you
want outside of the regular polish for
levels and features
and we're shaving and gluing and
sticking things together so that it's
not the schizophrenic game experience
that things flow from one end to another
in terms of story like on that level
it's really no usually the story The
designers have done a really good job
it's more about game features you know
and then how they interact with the
story or hey I went from this experience
to this experience or picking flowers
and Alchemy feels like a different game
then and then how is another character
referencing that and how is that
intersecting with
the skill system and the interface like
the skill system and the interface is
the party host
if you think about a game most games
particularly what I like to do
is that's your person who says welcome
do this go here check this out and the
skill system and the way it reacts on
the HUD the interface of the game is
sort of leading you to the next thing in
it and once you get that flow down
and the the
rate at which the game is giving you
activities then you're in like what we
we describe as a game Flow what is and
it's not until really that last year
before that the game Flow was just it's
not it doesn't even exist
in the way that you see it in the final
game
and that's what we're working on a lot
that last year
so at which point is like the set of
skills a skill tree
the characteristics of the role-playing
aspect of it when is that set the idea
is we usually have it in the beginning
but it's just we know it won't be done
until that last year we'll have one but
we know it's going to get honed
because it's not until you really see
okay how impactful is that one how much
are you doing it like how much are you
really and the main combat ones they
always win you always know the players
will drift toward the combat type skills
because every character needs some
amount of that but okay well how how
important is cooking how important is
alchemy how important
is these other type of activities and
then how do you balance them where when
you load up the skill menu it isn't
automatically give me plus 10 damage
how do you get the what about the combat
system that does seem to be an important
part of a lot of games you started in
the beginning yeah every time yep
so usually we're making that first
playable it's an area you can go through
some amount of dialogue some out of
combat
how do you get the combat right what's
the secret to a great combat system
well first on a control side helping the
player when they don't realize it
there's a lot of tricks you can do with
magnetism in terms of the controller and
where the attacks go so it has to feel
the minute to minute has to feel really
good in your hands there's a lot of
Animation time
right and changing animations so they're
impactful and they they happen at a rate
that the player feels
like they're really doing it and then
ultimately it's the illusion that the
enemies are smart
but they really
are there for you to kill them right so
they do a lot of things to just let
themselves get killed they're not a near
Smart near smart as we can make them
because it turns out that is not fun
foreign
so there's a balance between but there's
a that is I guess a kind of AI
and
it's a very intimate interaction with an
AI because it's like there's a lot of
stuff going on it's not just
very kind of shallow like a dialogue or
something like that it's like there's a
Time critical nature of it a lot of
stuff is happening and if ever if
anything feels off it's it's gonna feel
it wrong yep all the games Do It
um you know it's not unique to what we
do in terms of how they handle combat
scenarios
um and there's some games that just do
it extremely well in terms of
um even in multiplayer where you're
playing Bots and most people don't know
it
um or how
a multiple enemy scenario is really you
know they don't all shoot you they trade
off they're gonna wait I was like I'll
just wait my turn because we don't want
to overwhelm them but he feels like you
feel like you're overwhelmed when
there's six enemies but
you know a good game will no they're
gonna they're gonna take their time
is there a science to it is it is it art
is it like
oh my God yes yes I mean it's it's all
of that so it's like an iterative
process where you try different things
there's a lot of there's a lot of
Animation there's a lot of timing
animation work
hard work also how does the reticule
change
um what are the little sound effects
what about like the the gamify like that
is fun
again that goes back to the winning
you know the winning is fun yes death
does not yes Let The Wookie win
I like how you have to dumb down the AI
to make it fun for humans
um because if if you didn't it would
just be just Slaughter non-stop for for
All Humans that's good to know what
about things like
um
he said cooking like crafting making
potions and poisons and uh smithing
weapons and armor cooking how do you get
that right what's what's interesting
there such an interesting like
um just you know a lot of games don't
have that kind of thing so what role
does that play you know I think we
really cracked it in a way I like with
Fallout 4 actually where when we're
doing Elder Scrolls we have like the
flowers and things and you have Alchemy
and we took this to okay if it's
post-apocalyptic what if everything in
the world
was an alchemical ingredient sometimes
so breaking it down to their components
so when you walk around a world like
that again we like the simulation we
like we like the forks and spoons and
the cups and all that okay how can I use
those to create so I love how it works
starts working in Fallout 4 where okay
all these things I find there is they
have some value
in creating or crafting outside of a cup
is worth one gold piece or one cap
by the way I have to be honest I haven't
played Fallout 4 played Fallout 3 I
thought that was a Legendary game I've
been uh
um can you make a case for Fallout 4
that I should or should I just wait till
Fallout five and when does that come I
think you should play Fallout 4. love to
hear your thoughts all right it's a
different game Skyrim is too I mean it's
uh we try to make them all different
they all they all they are fundamentally
different they all have their own tone
yeah so Fallout 3 and Fallout 4
intentionally a very different tone Oh
really interesting yeah so what what
what's that world like what's uh the
post-apocalyptic world of Fallout if you
can just briefly take a stroll into that
world tone wise well there's look in
entertainment there's a lot of
post-apocalyptic stuff and what what
makes Fallout tick is
the the world that was left behind the
world that blew itself up this utopian
world of nuclear energy and it all goes
wrong so I love the American dream of
that like how they visioned the future
in the 50s and that blowing itself up I
think that's like a super interesting
place to explore which is why we always
wanted to play in that World
um
and it does an amazing job of sort of
weaving
you know the drama and darkness of a
post-apocalyptic world with
B-movie humor
um you know it Winks at the camera
sometimes
often actually and
that when when you're in that world it
just has this this its own unique flow
and and Vibe outside of anything else
kind of in that genre
so Elder Scrolls has or at least Skyrim
has some humor that's a little bit but
Fallout leans into it a little more a
little bit more a little bit more yeah
yeah it does it's like ironic humor it's
the Duck and Cover so get under your
desk if the bomb comes and everything
will be fine it's that type of humor so
the funny thing is I do think Fallout 3
is one of the uh the greatest games ever
uh you've said that quote when we
started Fallout 3 in 2004 we obviously
had big ideas of what we could do with
it and I talked to a lot of people from
ex-developers to press folks to fans
what made it special what are the key
things you'd want out in in a new one
the opinions and I'll put this mildly
varied a lot but they would all end the
same like a sternfather pausing for
effect but do not screw it up how do you
not screw up a game you have not screwed
up many games
yet
I mean back to the Fallout one yeah
yeah that was look that I remember that
we were met with a lot of skepticism in
terms of oh what are they going to do
with this it was a beloved kind of
isometric turn-based role-playing game
you know awesome for when it came out
um and actually it was announced we had
finished Morrowind but not announced
Oblivion
but because we'd acquired the rights we
had to announce it because I think
interplay was a public company I don't
remember
um I just remember we had to announce it
and we're thinking there well you're
gonna we're gonna piss off all the Elder
Scrolls fans because we're announcing a
Fallout game we're probably gonna piss
off the hardcore Fallout fans because
we didn't make the original and clearly
we'll probably make a different kind of
game so I do remember you know there was
a lot of concern with with all of our
fans
um and fans of Fallout at the time and
so
I think it was pretty rewarding for us
that that game found the audience and
success that it that it did
um is one of my favorite projects that
I've ever ever worked on
and because it was so fresh for us and
we we had a very clear like even before
we had the rights like this is the game
we're gonna make like we're this is the
kind of thing we're gonna do and
we had done more when then we were
working on Oblivion
and it was kind of a breath of fresh air
to do it and what's kind of remarkable
is Fallout 3 comes out just you know two
and a half years after Oblivion and we
did all this DLC for Oblivion so we were
really really kind of prolific in how
our development how it was going so
um
I just remember enjoying making that
game so much because it was everything
we were doing was new
which which as did the world creation uh
was there some Innovation like
technically that was happening the world
creation like it was you know obviously
a different look even though some of us
a very few of us had worked in the
Terminator things
um the vat system the skill system and
we loved the original game so much so
you felt this responsibility
to bring it back in a big way and
reintroduce it in a way that you know as
much as we could scratch the same itch
when you when you played the original
game that had the same tone are there
some favorite things to you about that
world
that just kind of connected I love again
I usually start with the beginning I
love the beginning I love the character
generation if you go if you played it a
lot or you're developing it it starts to
feel really long
but the first time you play it or second
I just think it's awesome
and this idea
it's a hard thing to say okay we want we
want you to feel like your character on
the screen even when you play like a
Skyrim you don't know what you were
doing before that but Fallout 3
you you were born in the vault and you
raised in the vault and you lived in the
vault but you experience a part of that
so it's a very different when you step
out it I think it really
and then the visuals are the visuals but
the emotional moment of stepping out of
the Vault you feel like you lived your
whole life in the ball
and you feel like you have a sense of
your past
right and I need to find my father
we should isn't it possible to have that
sense with like Elder Scrolls like a
life story like like childhood trauma
and stuff back to the human I mean you'd
have to like look you do some of that
stuff but they go through menus you know
pick your background we're doing that in
Starfield hey pick your background what
are you doing before this moment can you
pick your traumas and stuff
yeah thank you we'll go for that and
then also make a mod for like a
therapist but a lot of it you know it's
in your head so you're gonna you're
gonna do that you're gonna pick this
background and do these things and
you're sort of like this is who I was
yeah and we intentionally with Elder
Scrolls kind of make it a as much of a
blank slate you know I'll just goes a
little bit more of a blank slate game to
who you are which has a lot of positives
and and Fallout for us has been more of
a this is this this was your life before
here's who you were go be who you want
to be but this is the background it's a
little more strict
now this might reveal something about me
and uh speaking of childhood trauma but
but I but I feel like there's
a lot of
a lot of the meaningful experience of a
role-playing game is not just the
development of the character throughout
the game but the initial character
creation like you said is there
something to that process
that um you found to be powerful
like the design of that process because
you think so much about that beginning
what how much should be controlled
how much should be defined
the interface itself the visual
appearance of the character too because
I feel like that you're loading in you
start to load in the world that you're
about to enter by creating that
character right
yeah we think about it a lot it's a
really really good uh comment and
question and it's more than
it has to set the whole stage has to
like pique your interest for the world
you're going to enter
and
we've done it so many different ways
in terms of when you actually go to make
your character when you're making the
choice
and one of the things over time that
we've wanted to avoid is people starting
over
so there's a lot of intentionality
around the types of choices you have
that can be undone or not undone
because what you what game players want
to is I'll play it and then I'll make a
new character
but sometimes they do that because they
realize they made the wrong type of
character
and as a designer you don't want that to
happen
so
some people let me get this comment
Elder Scrolls like oh you simplified it
like no no no we moved those choices
into the gameplay so that you don't
you know make this character in the
beginning
and then eight hours later realize you
make a horrible mistake and so okay I'm
going to start out like that to me is a
really really bad experience so also
like life itself
[Laughter]
but like life is okay so you can then
fix it in game right I wish I wish I had
learned archery well I'm gonna start
tomorrow yeah
um so you can do that like the Skyrim
character system uh it was really
designed around that all you pick is
like what's your race and that gives you
some things but there's nothing you
can't get then on your own mostly
that sounds weird but you mostly want
that
beginning character generation to be
visual which you then can also change in
the game and some starting skills
that get you off to the type of play
that you want but if you discover you
don't like that type of play as you play
you can move your character along so we
have
moved away post you know Oblivion to a
classless
meaning you don't have a strict
character class Warrior Mage thief
whatever
um in our games and that's that's
continuing for the are you like thinking
of Elder Scrolls six you're already
thinking about that kind of stuff so you
think of early on the the like you said
the first few experiences in the game
you already think it's in them yeah
we know what the first few hours are
like we
we know it's a character system is
basically like and so tonally what's the
difference to you between Oblivion
Skyrim Morrowind oblivious Skyrim and uh
Elder Scrolls
like I could to me man stuff Blends
together yeah uh but Oblivion
that's when you can make spells and
stuff
you could you could do it in Morrowind
as well Oblivion has some more guard
rails on it morrowind's where you can
really go and Daggerfall
I don't remember if you make spells in
Arena I think you can
someone will correct me you definitely
can a dockerfall gets crazy Morrowind
um you can sum up and then we start we
start putting guard rails on it because
people started
breaking the game in certain ways yeah
was about to break the game like you
always wanted to be well there's like
one people love in Morrowind where you
can make these uh recall stones
and uh you could teleport to different
areas but you really need in that game
it breaks so many quests yeah and so as
we any any Quest we were then we would
do this this exercise of Designing a
quest and then someone would say and
then I recall away okay the quest is
broken and then one day someone says can
we just get rid of that spell effect
everyone's like yes please and so it
allowed us to make better content so uh
the tangent upon a tangent upon a
tangent how do you equate a compelling
Quest because there's all kinds of
personalities of humans that play these
games right because I like the grind
well there's look there's there's
multiple flavors of a compelling quest
uh
you know some of them have very good
upfront storytelling you just like the
story and the NPC that's giving you this
task and then uh you'll go through a
more handcrafted experience that
the designers have done a really really
good job on the space it has some some
twist or surprise in the middle and then
the ending has some
you know multiple options that the
player feels like they had they got to
do something they made an interesting
choice but the best ones for me are
actually were
all of that was far more open-ended the
how I am going to accomplish this task
is
completely up to me and I'm gonna find
some ingenious solution a silly that
this was like this sounds very basic
it's going to sound quite cliche and
silly go find me five danger cards or
whatever like find me X of something
that's hard to get
that's a very simple set you can give a
simple story set up for that
and we're not telling the player where
to get those and I think now where could
I get those
and I've actually find those
to be just as rewarding as the really
handcrafted well done a little bit more
linear with an interesting choice at the
end if those objects
are in the world in some you know
believable way that there's usually some
challenge at getting getting them
how do you place objects in a world in
an interesting way because it's a big
part we have a level design you cannot
people oh if they only knew how much we
spend on we have a clutter group a group
people who clutter
like we like clutter is all the stuff
around just like interior decorators
yeah for Treasure and stuff and trash
and
um they go through every space and they
clutter it our level designers think
about it a lot these also become
landmarks for the player when you're
walking through a space and oh this is
the place with this and there is a logic
to making a good level
um as they say with even if you walk by
like a little T intersection that
becomes like a decision point in the
player's head like oh I didn't go down
that way but the more you do that it
looks easy on paper but when you're
playing a game
you actually kind of want to limit those
because he's trying to keep track of all
these decision points then they get lost
and yes we have Maps but anytime the
player is going to check a map in a
place like that I feel that it's more of
like a backstop for certain players if
we if they need to check the map feel
like we've kind of failed
got it so it's just there's a there's a
momentum to it just pulls pulls them in
and you know if you played a lot of
games you played a lot of levels where
you're just like I'm a little confused
or I don't know and you play other
levels where like man I just I yeah it
was great I went through it it was well
balanced I knew where I was going and
it's not you don't want to ever be Maisy
as long as you know where you're going
as long as you know you made those
choices then
it feels fine but as far as the treasure
and all of the loot
um it is really an art we will not do
enough clutter and then we will over
clutter and then there's too much stuff
everywhere and then we declutter every
single game I wish we got better at it
it would save us a lot of time but your
constant's gone by feel like this is not
as too much it's not enough right right
because the other thing is
look it creates
um
people want to pick everything up they
want to click everything
so if you have too many things of
importance in a room it's like it
actually makes you feel a little tight
as a player you're like well I need I'm
basically an idiot if I don't pick all
this stuff up
you probably felt this way yeah yeah for
sure and like the moment where you
decide that you're just like I've
clicked so many things in this room I
actually am going to leave that ammo
canister there yeah but you feel like a
dope yeah you've probably experienced it
yes but also you have a you have a joy
from if there's not many items and you
found the one and you got it right and
you feel good I got it and then it's
finding like oh I stuck my head in this
corner and you know I picked this lock
and I open this locker and oh there was
this there's this thing I've been
waiting for yeah
what about like rare and rare items
that's an art even more so of an art
um I will say we have a ways to go there
in terms of finding the right drop rate
for special items we call them in your
epic rare legendary
you look at games like so many games do
it and there are ones that P you just
play and love because they have it down
you know Destiny Destiny 2 is great at
it Diablo
a series I love you know sort of
famously Diablo 3 which I think is great
and they did an update it mostly just
changed the loot drops and it's like
this whole new experience and there's a
really real art to it um I think that
that we're still learning we're still
learning a lot and have to we're trying
to you know get better at it because
it's one of those things where it drives
you through the game it's it's fun to
get the treasure in Diablo and Skyrim
have this interesting quality of
being extremely popular
and there's a lore around like rare
items so it's a it changes the dynamic
of like you could afford to have really
rare items yes and then and then
somebody finds it and that becomes like
a thing I mean as you release a game
there's a there's a I mean a lot of
people play and they start sharing
stories and so on it's so interesting
because that's part of the game
experience is the stories of others
right for us a hundred percent because
we've been classically with most of our
stuff single player that that water
cooler shared experience we would have a
thing like we call them did you know
moments like we gotta have a bunch so
you meet someone they do what are you
doing and then they say did you know
if you go here and do this what did you
know
and that to us uh is aware of a lot of
our community
has has been sharing their stories and
here's what you can do has there ever
been a temptation to create
um not a single player game that's
gigantic that's what we did Fallout 76.
we have Elder Scrolls Online not not a
game I created but and look that started
as more classic MMO know the folks
they're part of a company who made that
game
um and it's insanely insanely popular it
is okay so I should try it out they do
some great storytelling quests like the
actual mechanics aren't the same as
Skyrim but the world is awesome they've
just done an incredible job you know
it's about to uh be 10 years for that
game as well and they this is you know
great Community around that
yeah it's uh I haven't played because
there's a there's a mobile uh fallout
game right I need to play that I was
thinking of playing Diablo mobile too I
mean you can debate the monetization but
I would not it's I think they did a
Phenom it's really fun
Diablo Diablo well follow I definitely
recommend that one fallout shelter
completely different game yeah Diablo
Immortal is uh I was very very impressed
with I had a lot of fun on the mobile
yep what's the challenge of Designing a
game for mobile versus the PC and
console well obviously the screen size
right is that what you feel first what
what's the what's the fundamental change
in the in the philosophy of a design
does it does it constrain does it change
the tone of the game
well we've done a few things and we have
a new mobile game that we're working on
that we haven't announced yet that I'm
in love with
um
there are a couple things that you
approach on mobile now I can give you
sort of the classic Mobile gaming thing
and then what we do
um you know a classic Mobile gaming is
really for
Short play sessions
because
for the amount of people you're gonna
get the the number that I have the
amount of time to sit there for a long
time and play it like a console game or
a PC game is lower because people are
playing mobile games on the move or
whatever
and how it on boards you because
obviously most of them are free so the
tutorial how the tutorial Works how it
gets you into the game because you
haven't bought it you haven't done this
investment of buying it and then saying
no I'm going to learn it people don't
care so really understanding how they
get into the game those two things are
really the magic uh to Mobile gaming we
have found though with our games you
know particularly fallout shelter
people will sit there for an hour or two
like they will just sit there and play
it like large numbers of people who play
it for hours a day
so it's uh there is a more
I don't know addicting element to the
mobile because I guess you can spend if
you look at
you know if you look at kids these days
they can stare at their phone for hours
that's all they do that's where they
watch everything so it's also like a
demographic thing the younger audience
they would rather sit and stare at their
phone than
play it on a big screen I would just
love to sort of list out throughout
human history the evolution of sentences
that began with if you look at kids
these days
is true it's true the kids the kids of
the kids these days will probably be
talking about be doing like virtual
reality like I love mobile games though
I I play a ton of them I am like the
game my favorite game this year is
Marvel snap
this card game from the folks who did
Hearthstone you should really play it if
you like do you like card games oh yeah
yeah do you like superheroes no it's
genius you don't like superheroes no I
don't like superheroes I never
understood listen this never this is
like super girl growing up in the Soviet
Union what I don't understand them all
right well I don't understand you're
wearing a costume it's it's it's silly
to me I can't so you have to uh suspend
um like you have to be able to immerse
yourself and for some reason there's
something about costumes it doesn't get
me but then again I'm like into elves
and Dragons so I don't understand and
I'm fine I get it yeah but the rest the
rest at least the America the Western
World disagrees with me so
uh even Batman you have like little ears
but that's fine
um uh
well back to uh Elder Scrolls star field
so one thing I didn't ask you about
when you look at the timeline of five
six seven eight years whatever it is to
create a game what's the role of the
deadline
internally not publicly enough to be
honest do you try to keep in your own
brain a deadline for the team a deadline
yeah all the time and when you set that
deadline early in the development
do you try to set deadline like that's
really tough to reach no we try to make
it like hey this is our best guess if
you make it tough to reach it's sort of
you know you're going to miss it it's
arbitrary
we really try to you know keep ourselves
honest because it will let you know
where you're at right when I first
playable we want to be done with
prototyping or design by this date we
want to First playable this day we want
to have this but look you know things
happen pandemic happens people go home
it's throws everything off or
you know what you needed to do because
we're not just like making a game and
then moving everybody on you know what
you needed to do like Skyrim was so
popular we kept people on that game for
longer so it delayed a little bit we
were doing with Fallout 4 at the time
because we can't weren't you know hey
we really shouldn't move the people on
The Fallout yet because we're doing
these things in Skyrim and we should so
it just sort of keeps you honest for
where you're where you're at does it get
super stressful as you get closer you
try to avoid announcing anything is
there a temptation to analysis well I've
done it always right I've I've announced
you know Starfield we're pretty you know
loud with a release date that we then
had a delay so
um was that tough
it was
it was but it was the right thing to do
and uh how do you know it's the right
thing like when you when you sat down
and looked at it like this is not ready
it's not an exact science but you can
look at what needs to be done and the
amount of time you have and you know
we've done it in the past where we can
get it done we we believe we can and so
you're fighting that personal belief
that you can get something done
but there's a lot of things that go into
release date with marketing and
Publishing
and
you know we've reached a point where on
Starfield where it was it was pretty
clear to us
even though you want to say you can get
it done that
the risk involved with that to the to
the fans of the game to the team to the
company we're part of Xbox now to
everybody was
we should really uh we should really
move it
and give it the time it needs
so you mentioned part of Xbox
Microsoft bought bethesdin and as nmx
for 7.5
billion dollars
well what's it like joining the Xbox
team you've you've um I think written
about it what's what what are the
what are the exciting aspects of that
you know
when your company goes through a change
like that no matter what it is even if
it's somebody that you've worked with
for a long time you never know what
you're in for you hope
um and I had worked with them uh for
since we started doing console stuffs
with Morrowind was you know they came to
us came to me and hey you should make
this game for the Xbox and so when they
were making that console
um had a great experience with them
and then on the 360 with Oblivion and so
I guess the point is
we felt that we had a very good
relationship with everybody there
and we understood uh what their culture
was but you never really know
and and I mean this honestly it's been
awesome that the culture inside of
Microsoft and Xbox that that people see
from the outside is the culture inside
the way they talk about players
the um the way they'll invests in the
players the risks they'll take
the thoughtfulness from Phil Spencer on
down has been you know feel really
really lucky
and then a game like Starfield where
look we've had a lot of success with
with the games that you talked about but
we've never been kind of the
platform seller
you know the game
for a platform for a period of time and
so you know there is a lot of pressure
there's a lot of responsibility there to
make sure we deliver for everybody
is there a chance that Starfield is
exclusive to Xbox it is it is exclusive
it's officially right yep yes
so you're
I get it so extra pressure also creating
a new world
yeah it's new but keep in mind for us
that exclusivity is not unique even
though we've done PlayStation stuff and
I think the PlayStation 5 just an insane
machine they've done a great job and
we've had great success on PlayStation
we were traditionally a PC developers in
the beginning
we transition to Xbox became our lead
platform like morrowind's basically
exclusive to Xbox Oblivion was exclusive
to Xbox for a long period of time Skyrim
DLC was so we've done a lot of like our
initial stuff is all Xbox so
we get into development and saying we're
focused on Xbox and it's not abnormal
for us in any way it's been kind of the
norm
and from a development side I you know I
like the ability to focus so our ability
to focus and say and have help from them
you know the top engineers at Xbox to
say we are going to make this look
incredible
on the new systems is like from from my
standpoint it's just awesome
what's the difference in creating the
the console versus the PC I also have to
admit I've never
um is this shameful actually you should
recommend to me I've never played Skyrim
or any uh any of the games you've
created on Xbox really yeah and on
Console I I played I managed to play
very little actually yeah sure I mean
look there's there's the obvious
interface part between mouse and
keyboard and then a controller but when
you're looking at Hardware PCS it's
tough right because you're looking at
well
you know what are their driver versions
what kind of monitor they have what is
the actual refresh rate of x y and z
um we're used to it yeah but if you know
anyone will tell you give me the
hardware that I know I'm writing it for
you know this
um and the the series X is just a
incredible machine
and now you know what it is you know you
know what it is and and now that we're
part of Xbox getting you know the people
who built it to show you how to make it
really really dance is it's just awesome
is there a case to be made did you get
people that enjoy people that do both PC
and Xbox that enjoy Xbox more like that
if they have a choice yeah they they
enjoy it I think that depends on
and look now that you you can kind of
cross you can take your Save and Go
between and all those things you can
yeah
if you depends on if for which games so
for this Cairo if you have the Game Pass
PC version of it versus Steam not not
via steam right now and so there's the
GamePad so I'm like learning about this
because there's a Microsoft gate so this
is going to be on Game Pass
and then you can if yeah if you can take
it from PC through game pass but I think
it depends on like
like for me like what's my physical mood
do I want to lean back on a sofa exactly
right like the actual physicality of it
is what determines where I want to play
do I want to be two feet from a thing
right now and sometimes I like that I am
more of a console player just because
I sit on my PC at work all day like I
play a lot of video games so when I get
home and I want to play somebody else
like I am a sofa screen controller
person
let me ask you a ridiculous question so
you've created some of the greatest
games ever I I think there's there's uh
the question would be what's the best
game of all time all right all right
just give me a second Tetris all right
yeah that's interesting have you read
the book on Tetris no you should read it
particularly someone to grew up in
Russia
yep I'm sure there's an interesting
story the fact that there's a book about
Tetris is fascinating is there a book
about Mario
um I would love uh I would love to find
out more but I think I would put
Personnel put Skyrim I'll take that good
answer at number one for me
uh which is tough however you put it
because you could also make the case out
of the uh Elder Scrolls series like what
do you actually value more if you put
Tetris and Super Mario up there then
like the credit goes to Morrowind maybe
over Skyrim I don't I don't know where
the biggest leaps are
um but overall I think it's Skyrim but
uh for you if you're not allowed to pick
any of the games you were involved with
what are some interesting candidates for
you that are just games that
inspired the world impacted the world
shook the world in terms of what video
games are able to do
well first
I'm just sort of like hearing you say
that you think Skyrim's the best game of
all time is quite
like thank you but and it's you know
incredible thing to hear
um and
you know when I think about
a couple answers there's ones that are
like personal to me Ultima seven it's
probably yeah can you talk about Ultima
like you you said that as an inspiration
I've never crossed that world well which
it was what kind of game is it it's a
role-playing game you know Circa 1992 93
94 and Ultima Online first you know
really visual online World in that way
um but for me that was a virtual fantasy
world where I had you know you could
bake bread you could pick all this stuff
up I mean anyone who's played ultimas
and plays our stuff can see the kind of
uh touchstones and callbacks to that or
inspirations
and the other thing that I loved about
Ultima
was actually the peer they were all
different
right that they iterated and there
weren't necessarily what I'll call A
plus one sequel outside of Ultima 7 part
two clearly a plus one sequel but they
each had their own tone
um I love like the boxes
you know it's something that we get into
as well I love this idea that a game
also is this tangible
thing oh when you but when you buy it
you know the cardboard boxes and the way
they were designed and Ultima 7 is black
and Ultima Eight's the fiery gate and
the paintings on them and I just you
know if you break your heart a little
bit that that culture is a big gone a
little bit a little bit
and that's also why I like
you know this goes to video gaming or
any other digital things where digital
ownership has great value to people so I
like looking at my collections of games
even digitally I want to see nice you
know in the same way you want to see
nice album art I want to see nice cover
art for our games
and we spend a lot of time in them so
that you take a look at Elder Scrolls
and Mormon Oblivion and Skyrim we want
those boxes to look good next to each
other
going back to the video games
yeah you know I always mention Tetris
because I think
it's
you know obviously I love Virtual Worlds
and those kind of things but for the
time and what an interactive like video
game sort of the simplest form
I sort of think you can put Tetris in
front of just about anybody
and
they'll enjoy it
and it's got some moment of Challenge
and
um it's just so elegant it's like to me
the like this very pure game
that only works because it's a video
game
and I think mobile games figured out
some of the magic of Tetris the simple
uh some of them have yeah yeah and but
tatters did it a long long time ago
right you could you can really create
that immersive experience without but
for me you know the ultimate
civilization
yeah
um as far as you know a grand strategy
game
um
Pac-Man I mentioned in terms of bringing
games into the mainstream in a way that
captured people that nothing before it
had
Super Mario Donkey Kong everything
Nintendo I probably the best game makers
in the world still
um they know who they are they know what
they want to do
um always in awe of what they create
I gotta ask about the a game I haven't
played but people put up there as one of
the great Zelda breath of the wild have
you got a chance to play a lot of it yes
yes it's fantastic it's fantastic what
do you think about I mean it's a very
different experience I played other
zeldas than the open walls you've
created but it is also an open world it
is uh uh it's my favorite Zelda because
obviously like open World stuff and
the the one thing that they do really
really well is they don't constrain you
some people you know even some of the
things we do can strain you a little bit
more Zelda says here's the whole thing
and you are constrained by the actual
um player abilities you haven't earned
yet not some arbitrary barriers and so I
think they just did a phenomenal job
it's a magical game
it really feels open it's because it
truly is yes what about I mean I just
like asking about some open world uh a
very different one is the world of
either Grand Theft Auto or Red Dead
Redemption both love I would put GTA 3
Grand Theft Auto 3 up there with the
landmark kind of Usher in the open world
when that comes out on the PlayStation
2. even though there was GTA one and two
this was an all new thing with the
mobster storytelling uh
3D version I guess it was it was then
Vice City is kind of a fast follow which
uh
could be my favorite one
um
I loved all the Grand Theft Auto I think
they're really phenomenally well made
games same with red dead I think Red
Dead Redemption one
could be my favorite story
like it highly recommend finishing that
game so you like both the story you like
the grittiness of that because they have
they have a bit of the
like I guess if you like to fall Fallout
there's the humor the
I don't know I don't know what it is
it's the light-hearted humor of it but
also the brutality of human nature is in
there too but it's like uh
and also some of the fun they create
with the music when you drive and stuff
like that they create they create a
world there's a tone there's a very
strong there's a very strong tone
um you know the satire on the world is
just so well done the gameplay is great
um I think they've just done a
a phenomenal job is there any others
that pop to mine portal portal yeah
that's that's another weird creation
I could just sit here and list games
forever well first of all I'm enjoying
this
hearthstone's a game I love I love all
time like sports college football NCAA
Football was my favorite it's like I
would say this is a great role oh you
would actually keep getting a rule it's
a role-playing game because I have all
these characters I have like you know 60
characters and they're all leveling up
and then I have to play them and then
the college ones are like college
football they'd graduate so you lose
your players and then they stop making
the series and I know the folks at EA
and they will say I have bugged them
when is this going they're doing it so
it's finally coming back nice what would
you say is the is the is the greatest
sports game of all time hmm
well it's NCAA football you have to pick
the year
versus Madden oh yeah yeah but there's
more teams you get to College you know
fight songs there's more pageantry and
the players turn over they're only there
for Four Seasons so you have to the the
the so you know it's that there's it's
more Dynamic so you like variety versus
so what was the last one 2014 maybe it
was
and you don't like FIFA and I like look
FIFA's incredible I just look I'm a
college football fan they give you that
fantasy if you like if you like European
football soccer Fifa is incredible yeah
I love that game too
have you been paying attention to the
game design of that world of those
worlds yeah and the thing people I think
with those kind of games
it is re like we're racing games Forza
put up there I love Forza
um play them all when you are have to
recreate something that's real in the
real world say it's cars or it's sports
games everybody knows how it should work
that's that's a really difficult task
when people know how it should work then
you're going to balance it for single
player the multiplayer parts of it
um they get very very competitive
and you know in many respects you're
forced to put out a new version every
year
and
I say forced in quotes because they're
you know you count them as big updates
but it's a very it's a much more
difficult development process than I
think
um
people understand
and how hard those teams work I know a
lot of people who do it and I think they
just do
I've enjoyed them all I buy Madden every
year yeah so yeah every single year
yeah they do refresh it there's a
feeling of freshness I don't know what
that is yeah look there's been years
where it feels like less was done and
more was done but I I enjoy it every
year yeah yeah
uh what is a perfectly productive day in
the life of Todd Howard look like
so uh maybe not perfectly but just like
a perfectly average productive thing uh
what what are you a morning person
evening person is it chaos is it pretty
regular
uh I'm in a good I'm on a good flow
right now I'm still doing a lot of stuff
so there's things I'm like executive
producing and then
you know Starfield I'm directing so I
sort of view that as that's an everyday
thing
um fortunately I get to do a lot of
stuff from
look at the TV show we're making and
um this Indiana Jones game that's being
developed at machine games we have to
look at that
um but you know the best really day or
before I feel is fulfilling is
um get to play some of a game the game
will say star field get to play some of
Starfield look at the problem set of
what it is doing
and then get in a room with
the other developers that I work closely
with and we solve that problem together
so
that's the most rewarding thing when you
can say okay what do we want this to do
what's the what's the Real Player
experience we want what are all the
pieces in front of us where you you know
the actual tangible pieces as opposed to
the beginning the pie and the sky part
is always fun
but it's like anything is possible
that's fun but it's not
rewarding in the same way because you
haven't solved something whereas these
are the elements you have to play with
how do we make this all work together
and you come out of at the end of the
day like now that feels great
so brainstorming about specific big
picture both big picture and and very
specific detail of a game that's not
working something's not working you want
to fix it that kind of stuff
because you feel like okay you've made
tangible progress on the actual build of
the game it was something you played in
the beginning of the day didn't feel
great
you've figured out a solution with a
group of people like it's always with a
group
and then the next day you're like yeah
that was
that worked out who's on the team is it
designers Engineers all the above
artists voice over so internal to the
studio it's you know a lot of
programming a lot of art you have design
which breaks into some you know Quest
design writing systems design who are
like doing all the treasure and the loot
and the syst and the skill systems yeah
and then level design is making the
spaces like those that you'll play
through production is a big part of it
the producers who organize everything
um I can't remember if I mentioned art a
lot of artists um QA staff as well
they're hugely valuable in saying hey we
broke your game in these magical ways
what are you gonna do about it
is the loot design team still hiring how
do I apply it seems like the most tough
always I mean that all of this seems
like a super fun it is you know what
it's the best then you have audio
um and
it it by far is is the greatest job you
could possibly have and so if you're
into like technology it's great if
you're in the storytelling and
creativity and art it's great and it's
really the gaming you know the
combination of that
and like like I mentioned to you offline
I think of video games I mean to me he's
brought thousands of hours of happiness
and so when you're designing the game
whatever you're doing you have a part to
playing a thing that's going to bring
like Millions hundreds of millions of
Hours of Happiness to people
and you know crazy right it is and I'm
gonna I'm gonna play play you saying
that back to our team because you know
people forget your head's down you're
trying to solve these problems and then
you do forget how many people
it touches like even tiny decisions you
make tiny little things you create yeah
it's weird I wish there was a way to
like
um like I would notice things in the
video game and it's like huh okay like
there's a if it feels good but you don't
get that signal it the the creator
doesn't get that signal I wish they did
um I guess you could get that signal by
you know why is Lex stuck in this room
like digging through the loop we do get
we do now get a lot of good data on what
the players are doing enjoying a knot
well we we know where they've been and
where they've died and how long they
play in certain sections and we can sort
of tell outside of people just telling
us on forums or calling or other things
um we can tell for some data where
people are dropping off or having a you
know we can tell if there's a key
frustration point
do you ever
think about making people feel like
human feelings when they play like
designing
like make them feel fear or excitement
anger
uh longing loneliness with stuff all the
above yeah of course the big one
I like to say is the video games give
you is pride outside of other you know
if you watch movies or things like that
like yeah but you never think like look
what I did
yeah and that feeling of like
accomplishment and pride in what you did
where you overcame
you talked about going back to a game
that like those are real feelings of
like accomplishment
that I've felt in games uh that I've
played
and
when we get to see a player feel that
um it's really really special
the other one is there is a
you know there is an escape or to be
someone else that's more powerful in
what in our games that you are in real
life that gives you a confidence or a
perspective
um
we're doing one next week but we've done
a number of Make-a-Wish visits kids who
could wish for anything
and they want to come and
I want to see the next game and meet the
creators and see how you do it and they
come with their family
um and it is like the greatest thing
that we do
and
it reminds you of like how important it
is and the other really awesome thing is
that you can see like the family change
by the end of the day like they don't
they didn't even realize what it meant
to their child or what would into it and
it's just that to me is like
been been involved with that foundation
for a number of years and it's been
really good you know reminder
of how lucky we are and in general for
young people that sense of
accomplishment is hard to find
I mean yeah where they they don't not
everybody has it in the outlets that
real life provides well that's the thing
I mean the world is cruel to when you're
young
nobody takes you seriously you don't get
like that's why you everybody always
wants to grow up and get all the scripts
as possible it's the hardest
it's hard and then video games allow you
I mean to build that sense of confidence
a sense of Pride and something that's
why when people talk uh down to video
games like it's a culture and so on I
it's it's not
it misses out on that really deeply
meaningful thing especially with like
single player there's some darker
aspects to multiplayer that people
create communities and you know it can
it can go off the rails a bit but the
actual experience of the game
um especially one we used to stick with
for a while that's that's really
beautiful
um do you have uh advice for those same
Young Folks
given that your life is an interesting
one given what kind of degree you got
end up being a Legendary game designer
do you have advice for young folks in
high school maybe College
I don't have a career or a life they can
be proud of
well you have to find something that you
love so much that uh it's never gonna
feel like a job
and don't do it for money don't do it
for find something you love and uh
foreign
will come it won't be a straight path
and
do not ever underestimate yourself
it's going to take hard work
but the worst thing that young people do
is think they can't accomplish something
or they underestimate themselves
and maybe those first few times through
where they do fail
if they love it enough they're going to
be resilient and and push past that
anyone who's had success or gotten
somewhere it's been
they've had those times right and
they've stayed resilient because
they love it so much that this is what
they want to do
when you do it for other reasons
I just don't think it's going to work
out the same did you have low points
uh in your life dark points or your mind
went to a dark place whether it's uh
struggling to get a job and uh but does
the soft works or maybe with the
Red Guard flop or
uh where you kind of start to doubt
yourself or any of that well I think
what's weird looking back
I was so I was always so like in love
with doing this that I didn't view them
as
like dark per se
looking back it's like oh that was I
just wanted to okay let me find a way to
make this work even when it's hard and
it's failing and all that kind of stuff
you just kind of like it's a problem
before you to solve yeah you know when I
started Bethesda
I don't know my father had moved near
nearby to the office I I was moving
and uh you know I slept on his sofa like
I didn't care like I don't need a
bedroom I'll just I'll sleep on the sofa
and work there that's all I want to do
um when the company almost went out of
business it was well I hope it doesn't
I feel
somewhat responsible but hey let's okay
that's a Learning lesson let's go I
think I was pretty resilient to it all
fallout 76 like really bad launch and
okay
what do we do wrong what can we learn
let's go at it now it's a now it's a
success
but those kind of ups and downs for the
length of developments that we have you
know people don't see them but we have
them you know all the time
and so it's that sort of belief that you
know with the team having done it time
and time again to know that now we're
gonna we're gonna make it as good as we
possibly can and whatever we're
experiencing now
when we solve it and we get it out and
you know we see the millions of people
who love it it's all worth it
and you're getting into new spaces first
of all new worlds with Starfield but
also new I saw the TV show you're
working on
uh
on Fallout
with Amazon what's that like worlds that
you created in the digital realm
becoming going on the screen yeah people
asked you know I can remember 10 years
ago after Fallout 3 was a hit you know
the movie Producers coming and hey we
think this would make a great movie
and taking a lot of meetings and I think
every you know most people would jump at
that like sweet and
I sort of paused and like I don't know
what is this gonna do
I felt like they're like synthesizing
about great people like well-known
creatives like you know it's gonna get
synthesized into this two-hour I don't
know I'm not
I'm not seeing the great thing here yet
so
you know I think the Advent of
television
in terms of what it's become you know in
nowadays with big budget TV series it
kind of came up again and met with
people and uh Jonathan Nolan and Lisa
Joy who do Westworld and I always
love the work he did uh writing
Interstellar and the dark movies I just
Nolan's involved with this yeah he's the
yeah he's the he's the EP and he's big
director incredible yeah
and uh he he's the ep's directed the
first few episodes
um and and when I connected with him
uh Jonah was like Hey you know you're my
you're the person I want to do this so I
met with people kept saying like you
know just
let me see if he wants to do it and I
was to my joy he was like oh yeah fall
three is one of my yeah sign me up there
was like no how do we get this done
and at that time he was sort of he was
at HBO and it was you know we were
trying to figure out it was put a little
pause on it
um and uh
you know got to visit the sets reading
scripts and things like that it's all
new to me
um but I they're doing such an
incredible job like I think if you like
this world you are gonna be just blown
away so cute I've never made a TV show
you know those are all the best you know
no one ever does it uh wanting it to not
be great but they've just done their
attention to detail and obsessed there's
obsessive
with what's on the screen
and the storytelling and how it looks
the whole the whole thing yeah I think
obsession is really uh a prerequisite
for greatness what they did uh HBO did
with Chernobyl
like the attention and he's doing uh The
Last of Us now that showrunner if you
really care and you really put a lot of
effort into the details
I was stunned that they I mean
I don't want to spoil but when people
see it I think you'll just be like wow
it's the um the other thing we're
approaching it is very different where
when it was people would say want to
make a movie they wanted to you know
tell the story of Fallout 3 or then tell
the story of Fallout 4. and for this it
was
hey let's do something that exists in
the world of Fallout
it's not retelling a game story it's
basically you know an area of the map
and like let's tell a story here that
fits in the world that we have built
doesn't you know break any of the rules
um Can reference things in the games but
isn't a retelling of the games it exists
in the same world but is its own unique
thing so it adds to it while also people
who don't haven't played the games who
can't experience like how crazy cool
Fallout is
um can watch the series and so
yeah there's some similarities or
interesting differences between the
creation of a game and a TV show they
notice from the sort of story
perspective well for them you know it's
much more character driven like you can
do all these things with the world and
stuff that we already have
um it's the main characters who they are
what their motivations are that
really is the engine
right there's no uh finding the right
actors to do those yeah because you're
not there's no interaction
there's no
um you don't get to enter that world
they have to do the work for you the
NPCs are on the show
yeah I can't wait to see how it turns
out you also mentioned Indiana Jones
that's a weird that's a different one
how do you work with a like a with a
famous
protagonist like uh when the character
is known
how do you work with that
well
it's different it's different like
Indiana Jones is different where like
the name he it is the the kids Indiana
Jones not a world it's him right you can
talk about the world video Jones but at
the end of the day it's about this
character
um and Raiders still my favorite movie
of all time no debate it's the best
movie ever
um best movie ever ever
on a tangent what do you love about it
uh well you know I saw it obviously when
I was younger and I believed it I
believe this happened and when they
found the ark I literally I I could not
believe that they found it so
and I have found over my life
it's still really watchable every time I
enjoy it every single time
um love the character love the story
um the opening is the greatest movie
opening ever and
I just love everything I love everything
about it what was the opening is this
one what it's the temple and then the
ball rolls and tries to crush him oh
that's the that's the opening of Raiders
yeah he steals the
I think you're uh you're deeply
fantastic what's the opening of Raiders
um so I've always wanted to it's one of
those things like what's on your bucket
list like I want to make an Indiana
Jones game and I had pitched Lucas I met
some people there and pitched them
back in 09
this Indiana Jones game concept
and
they wanted to publish kind of the deal
fell apart they wanted to publish it and
we were a publisher and so we we didn't
do it and I didn't really have the team
to do it I just was going to figure that
out after we agreed to a deal and well
you know we made Skyrim so it worked out
and then you know fast forward uh 10
years plus and uh you know Lucas now
part of Disney and they're doing a lot
more of Licensing and working with
people and so I knew some folks there
and said ah I have this idea that I
pitched a long time ago and they loved
it and again the internal team that I
had not only didn't have the time they
probably weren't as good a fit as
machine games who's done the Wolfenstein
series who is the perfect fit for this
game with storytelling and how they
record it and they are it's awesome
they're just doing an incredible job uh
with that game that's people are going
to be uh if you like Indiana Jones it is
it is a definite Love Letter to Indiana
Jones and everything with it can you say
if it's a little if it's more on the
action adventure like side
like the actual experience of the game
I could go back I would just say it is a
mashup it is a unique it isn't one thing
intentionally so
um it does a lot of different things
that you know weave myself and and
yurich and the folks in machine games
have wanted to
to do in a game so it's
it's a it's a unique thing
before I forget who do I
um
how many humans do I have to kill I mean
dragons to have to kill to get myself
somehow into uh Elder Scrolls six it's a
mod if anyone wants to create mods of me
and is that is that possible yeah it has
possible
uh while maintaining realism somehow
if you don't want you don't want a
person in a suit and tie
it doesn't make you put you in both put
you in Fallout you can wear that yeah
please put me so follows there's also
culture of uh you do a mod where you
replace the mysterious stranger
there you go
that's a to-do task top mod right there
and you will have my deep gratitude and
more dear stranger for doing so
um what's the programming language for
mods is it mostly their use our internal
scripting language that's built into the
tool
okay I'm almost afraid to explore that
world because you will never never turn
back
how long you've created so so many
incredible games
is there uh what does the future hold do
you is there so so going through this
process do you still have the energy the
passion the drive I keep creating I
cannot imagine
doing anything else
um
I'd like to do it as long as possible I
will say though as I've done it
um you know soon it'll be 30 years at
Bethesda
I've learned that to appreciate the
developments a little bit more
you know that the the time it takes I
should
re I should prioritize all of us
enjoying the development process more
than I did in the past
it was like you know just wanted to
the end of this all that mattered yeah
um and the more you do it you realize no
I'm I'm spending the majority of my life
in in Tamriel and the Wasteland and
Fallout so
you know the moments that we're all
doing this together we need to enjoy it
like it's a lot of work finishing
Starfield but
hey we gotta enjoy this this is like
incredible we don't get that many shots
so so the actual process of creating the
struggles along the way of stuff not
working like like you said at this point
Starfield probably creating some of the
glue of how Stuff feels and going back
again and again and again to try to make
the beginning better all that kind of
stuff and I would say it for anybody's
vocation whatever you're doing you know
whatever people do you're gonna have
harder times
and sometimes people would say you know
be out of you know maybe recalibrate
yourself to like okay how can we make
this more enjoyable for all of us no
matter what you're doing and rewarding
so if if life is a video game which most
likely is what do you think is the
meaning of life from having created so
many games
or the character has to
try to figure out
I mean there's bigger questions than
just solving the quest you're big asking
big questions of why am I here I feel
like that's good practice for answering
the same question for this video game
we're in
what do you think is the meaning of life
Todd Howard
that's a very
I can say what motivates me
that's a good
start
having a curiosity
you know the ability to
not assume a lot
and be curious about the world around
you
it's it's more it's you know
not the same as just wanting to learn
everything but what makes other humans
tick how do they feel how do they love
it might be cliche to say the meaning of
life is to love right
um so that curiosity is just is about I
I'm noticing the the world noticing the
world around you yeah look there's
someone just an anecdote someone says uh
everybody has two lives
and the second one starts when you
realize there's only one
and I think I usually preach to my
children everything else like have a
curiosity to the world around you and
you'll have the most fulfilling days
are you able to be inside the worlds
that you've created and be able to
notice them like really
like really enjoy them it takes time so
like Skyrim had its 10th anniversary and
so when I went back into it
I think I got to see it for what it is
my younger son got really into it if you
know a few years back on the switch
that's what we noticed people age up
into it
right so when there's so popular is you
know some people come into you know
they're now becoming you know teenagers
and oh okay I'll finally play Skyrim
and uh
you know he got obsessed with it not
and he wasn't usually I say hey check
out my games ah shut up Dad we don't
we're playing this other stuff um and he
got like obsessed with Skyrim like we're
having like deep Elder Scrolls lore
conversations at dinner
um and you know I saw it through his
eyes
and that was pretty special
and then the mods he was downloading and
the YouTubers he was following talking
about stuff so the people who like the
Elder Scrolls people don't realize how
much of that I have watched with my son
yeah and then I kind of when the 10th
anniversary came out like oh I'm gonna
I'm gonna check out a bill I have to
check at the build out but I hadn't
played it in so long and it was like
it does
it has this flow we're like oh my God I
just played for four hours I need to I
need to turn it off
uh yeah I mean there's something about
enjoying enjoy video games of the people
you love too or the the the water cooler
discussion and with kids so I actually I
would love to have kids and hopefully
soon in the future so I guess the thing
I need your advice on is how do I time
it in such a way when they're old enough
right at the age they're old enough
like I I want to know when to have them
so that when they're old enough that's
exactly when Elder Scrolls 6 comes out I
wanna can you give me a hand when I
should have kids all right never mind
you are a genius yeah how to ask that
question the number of times uh yeah you
told anecdote that your that your son
asked you the same question
um but but of course it's all for good
fun uh take as much time as is needed
it's uh Skyrim is still an incredible
game it has an impact on millions of
people's as as do all of your games it's
uh thank you for everything you've done
for the world thank you it's a huge
honest you will talk with me there it's
this has been an honor and uh you know
it has to be said like it's I have a
huge team of people I've worked with for
some of them for 20 years
um and
um it's really all of us together
keep doing a great job guys and gals I
can't wait to see what you create next
it really really does have an impact on
uh silly kids like me and uh millions of
silly kids like me so I really
appreciate everything thank you thanks
Dad
thanks for listening to this
conversation with Todd Howard to support
this podcast please check out our
sponsors in the description and now let
me leave you some words from Tolkien
so come snow after fire and even dragons
have their end
thank you for listening and hope to see
you next time