Kind: captions
Language: en
there's a broader question here right as
we build
socially and emotionally intelligent
machines what does that mean about our
relationship with them and then more
broadly our relationship with one
another right because this machine is
going to be programmed to be amazing at
empathy by definition right it's going
to always be there for you it's not
going to get bored
I don't know how I feel about that I
think about that a lot
the following is a conversation with
Rana l kalyubi a Pioneer in the field of
emotion recognition and human-centric
artificial intelligence she is the
founder of effectiva Deputy CEO of Smart
Eye author of girl decoded and one of
the most brilliant kind inspiring and
fun human beings I've gotten the chance
to talk to
this is the Lex Friedman podcast to
support it please check out our sponsors
in the description and now dear friends
here's Rana l kalyubi
you grew up in the Middle East in Egypt
what is the memory from that time that
makes you smile or maybe a memory that
stands out as uh helping your mind take
shape and helping you to find yourself
in this world so the memory that stands
out is uh we used to live in my
grandma's house she used to have these
mango trees in her garden
and in the summer and so mango season
was like July and August and so in the
Summer she would invite all my aunts and
uncles and cousins and you know like it
was just like maybe there were like 20
or 30 people in the house and she would
cook all this amazing food and
um us the kids we were like go down the
garden and we would like pick all these
mangoes and
um and I don't know I think it's just
the bringing people together like that
always stuck with me the warmth around
the mango tree yeah around the mango
tree and there's just like the The Joy
the joy of of being together around food
and and
um I'm a terrible cook so I guess that
didn't
that that memory didn't translate to me
kind of doing the same I love hosting
people do you remember colors smells is
that what like what how does memory work
yeah like what do you visualize you
should visualize people's faces
Smiles do is there colors is there like
a a theme to The Colors is it smells
because of food involved yeah I think
that's a great question so the those
Egyptian mangoes there's there's a
particular type that I love and it's
called darwazi mangoes and they're kind
of you know they're oval and they have a
little red in them so I kind of they're
red and mango colored on the outside so
I remember that this red indicate like
extra sweetness is that yes that means
like it's it's nicely sweet yeah it's
nice and ripe and stuff yeah
oh yeah what uh what's like a definitive
food of Egypt you know there's like
these almost their typical Foods in
different parts of the world like
Ukraine
invented borscht bush is this beet soup
with that you put sour cream on you see
it's not I can't see if you played it
that way if you if you know if you know
what it is I think you know is delicious
but if I explain it it's just not gonna
sound delicious I feel like beet soup
this doesn't make any sense but that's
kind of and you probably have actually
seen pictures of it because it's one of
the traditional foods in Ukraine in
Russia in different parts of the Slavic
uh world so this but it's become so
cliche and stereotypical that you almost
don't mention it but it's still
delicious like I I visited Ukraine it's
I eat that every single day so do you um
do you make get yourself how hard is it
to make no I don't know I think to make
it well like anything like Italians they
say well tomato sauce is easy to make
but it didn't make it right that's like
a generational uh skill so anyway is
there something like that in Egypt is
there a culture of food there is and and
actually
um
called
and it's um It's Made of This green
plant it's like it's somewhere between
spinach and kale and you mince it and
then you cook it in like chicken broth
and my grandma used to make and my mom
makes it really well and I try to make
it but it's not as great so we used to
have that and then we used to have it
alongside stuffed pigeons I'm
pescetarian now so I don't eat that
anymore but
stuffed pigeons yeah it's like it was
really yummy it's the one thing I miss
about
you know
now that I'm pescetarian and I don't eat
the stuffed pigeons yeah the stuff
pigeons is it what are they stuffed with
if if that doesn't bother you too much
to describe no no it's soft with a lot
of like just rice and um oh gosh yes
rice yeah so and yeah you also you've
said that you're first in your book that
your first computer was an Atari and
Space Invaders was your favorite game uh
is that when you first fell in love with
computers would you say yeah I would say
so video games or just the computer
itself just something about the machine
oh this thing
It's Magic in here yeah I think the
magical moment is definitely like
playing video games with my I have two
younger sisters and we just like had fun
together like playing games but the
other memory I have is my first code the
first code I wrote I wrote
um I drew a Christmas tree
and I'm Muslim right so it's kind of it
was kind of funny that I that I that the
first thing I I did was like this
Christmas tree so
um yeah and that's when I realized wow
you can you can write code to do all
sorts of like really cool stuff
I must have been like six or seven at
the time so you can write programs and
the programs do stuff for you that's
power that's important if you think
about it that's empowering hey hi yeah I
know well it is I don't know if that you
see like
I don't know if many people think of it
that way when I first learned to program
they just love the puzzle of it like oh
this is cool it's pretty it's a
Christmas tree but like it's power it is
like you eventually I guess you couldn't
at the time but eventually this thing if
it's interesting enough if it's a pretty
enough Christmas tree it can be run by
millions of people and bring them Joy
like that little thing and then because
it's digital it's easy to spread so like
you just created something that's easily
spreadable to millions of people totally
it's hard to think that way when you're
six
in the book you write I am who I am
because I was raised by a particular set
of parents both modern and conservative
forward-thinking yet locked in Tradition
I'm a Muslim and I feel I'm stronger
more centered for it I adhere to the
values of My Religion even if I'm not as
beautiful as I once was and I am a new
American and I'm thriving on the energy
vitality and entrepreneurial spirits of
this great country
so let me ask you about your parents
what have you learned about life from
them
especially when you were young so both
my parents they're Egyptian but they
moved to Kuwait right out they actually
there's a cute story about how they met
so my dad taught cobal in the 70s nice
and my mom decided to learn programming
so she signed up to take his cobal
programming class
and he tried to date her and she was
like no no I don't date and so he's like
okay I'll propose and that's how they
got married whoa I know right exactly
right
that's really impressive so um those
those Cobalt guys know how to how to
impress a lady
so so yes what have you learned from
them so definitely Grit one of the core
values in our family is just hard work
there were no Slackers in our family
and that's something I've definitely
it's definitely stayed with me
both both as a professional but also my
personal life
um but I also think my mom my mom always
used to like
I don't know it was like unconditional
love like I just knew my parents would
be there for me
kind of regardless of what I chose to do
um I think that's very powerful and they
got tested on it because I kind of
challenged you know I challenged
cultural norms and I kind of took a
different path I guess than what's
expected in of you know a woman in the
Middle East and then they and I you know
they still love me which is which is I'm
so grateful for that one was like a
moment that was the most challenging for
them which moment
where they kind of they had to come face
to face with the fact that you're a bit
of a rebel
just gotten married but I decided to go
do my PhD at Cambridge University
and because my husband at the time he's
now my ex ran a company in Cairo he was
going to stay in Egypt so it was going
to be a long distance relationship and
that's very unusual in the Middle East
for a woman to just head out and kind of
EX you know pursue her career and so my
dad actually my dad and my my
parents-in-law both said
you know we do not approve of you doing
this but now you're under the
jurisdiction of your husband so he can
make the call
and luckily for me he was supportive he
he said you know this is your dream come
true we've always wanted to do a PhD I'm
going to support you
um so I think that was the first time
where
you know I I challenged the cultural
norms was that scary oh my God yes it
was totally scary it was the biggest
culture shock from uh from there to to
Cambridge
to London well that was also during
right around September 11th so everyone
thought that there was going to be a
third world war or it was really
okay and and I and I at the time I used
to wear the hijab so I was very visibly
Muslim and so my parents were they were
afraid for my safety but anyways when I
got to Cambridge because I was so scared
I decided to take off my head scarf and
wear a hat instead so I just went to
class wearing these like British hats
which was in my opinion actually worse
than just showing up in a head scarf
because it was just so awkward right
like sitting in class with like all
these trying to fit in yeah yeah yeah
yeah yeah so after a few weeks of doing
that I was like to heck with that I'm
just gonna go back to wearing my head
scarf yeah you wore the the hijab uh so
starting in 2000 and for 12 years after
so it's always whenever you're in public
you have to wear the head covering can
you speak to that to the hijab maybe
your mixed feelings about it like what
does it represent in its best case what
does it represent in the worst case yeah
I wore it voluntarily I was not forced
to wear it and in fact I was one of the
very first women in my family to decide
to put on the hijab
and
my family thought it was really odd
right like there was they were like why
do you want to put this on and and and
at its best it's it's a sign of modesty
humility
um it's like me wearing a suit people
are like why are you wearing a suit it's
a step back into some kind of tradition
or respect for traditions of sorts right
so you said because it's by choice
you're kind of free to make that choice
right to celebrate a tradition of
modesty exactly and and and I actually
like made it my own I remember I would
really match the color of my head scarf
with what I was wearing like I it was a
form of self-expression and I and at its
best I I loved wearing it you know I
have a lot of questions around how we
practice religion and religion and you
know and and I think and I think also it
was a time where I was spending a lot of
time going back and forth between the US
and Egypt and I started meeting a lot of
people in the U.S who were just amazing
people very um purpose-driven people who
have very strong core values but they're
not Muslim that's okay right and so that
was when I just had a lot of questions
and politically also the situation in
Egypt was when the Muslim Brotherhood
ran the country and I didn't agree with
their ideology
um it was at a time when I was going
through a divorce like it was like it
was like just the perfect storm of like
political personal conditions where I
was like this doesn't feel like me
anymore
and it took a lot of courage to take it
off because uh culturally it's not it's
okay if you don't wear it but it's
really not okay to wear it and then take
it off
but you're still so you have to do that
while still maintaining a deep core and
pride in the origins in your origin
story
totally so still being
Egyptian still being a Muslim right and
being I think generally like Faith
driven but but
yeah but what that means changes year by
year for you it's like a personal
Journey yeah exactly what would you say
is the role of faith in that part of the
world
like how do you say you mentioned it a
bit in the book too yeah I mean I think
I think there is something really
powerful about just believing that
there's a bigger Force you you know
there's a kind of surrendering I guess
that comes with religion and you
surrender and you have this deep
conviction that it's gonna be okay
you're right like the universe is out to
like do amazing things for you and it's
gonna be okay and there's strength to
that like even when you're going through
adversity
um
you just know that it's going to work
out yeah it gives you like an inner
peace a calmness exactly exactly yeah
that's good it's faith in all the
meanings of that word right faith that
everything is going to be okay and it is
because time passes
and time cures all things it's like a
calmness right with the chaos of the
world yeah and also there's like
a silver I'm a True Believer of this
that something at a specific Moment In
Time
can look like it's catastrophic and it's
not what you wanted in life
but then time passes and then you look
back and there's the Silver Lining right
it maybe closed the door but it opened a
new door for you
and so I'm a True Believer in that that
you know there's a silver lining and
and almost anything in life you just
have to have this like a faith or
conviction that it's going to work out
so such a beautiful way to see a shitty
feeling so if you're if you feel shitty
about a current situation
I mean it almost is always true
uh unless it's the cliches thing of uh
if it doesn't kill you whatever doesn't
kill you makes you stronger it's
it does seem that over time when you
take a perspective on things that uh
the the hardest moments and periods of
your life are the most meaningful
yeah yeah so over time you get to have
that perspective right
uh what what about because you mentioned
uh Kuwait uh
what about let me ask you about war
what's the role of War and Peace maybe
even the Big Love and Hate in that part
of the world because it does seem to be
a part of the world where there's
turmoil there was turmoil there's still
turmoil
it is so unfortunate honestly it's
it's such a waste of human resources and
and and
yeah and human mind share I mean and at
the end of the day we all kind of want
the same things we want you know we want
human connection we want joy we want to
feel fulfilled we want to feel
you know a life of purpose and
I just I just find it baffling honestly
that we are still having to Grapple with
that
um
I have a story to share about this you
know I grew up in need on Egyptian
American now but but you know
um originally from Egypt and when I
first got to Cambridge it turned out my
office mate like my PhD kind of
you know she ended up you know we ended
up becoming friends but she was from
Israel
and we didn't know yeah we didn't know
how it was going to be like
oh did you guys sit there just staring
at each other for a bit
actually
turns out
he emailed our PhD advisor
asked him if she thought it was going to
be okay yeah
um and oh this is around 9 11 too yeah
and and Peter um Peter Robinson our PhD
advisor was like yeah like this is an
academic institution just show up and we
became super good friends we were both
um new moms like we both had our kids
during our PhD we were both doing
artificial emotional intelligence she
was looking at speech I was looking at
the face we just had so the culture was
so similar our jokes were similar it was
just I was like why on Earth are our
countries
why is there all this like war and
tension and I think it falls back to the
narrative right if you change the
narrative like whoever creates this
Narrative of War
I don't know we should have women Run
the World
yeah that's that's one solution the good
women because there's also evil women as
well true okay
[Laughter]
um but yes yes there could be less war
for women around the world the the other
aspect is uh it doesn't matter the
gender the people in power
you know I get to see this with with
Ukraine and Russian different
um parts of the world around that
conflict now uh and that's happening in
Yemen as well and everywhere else
there's these uh narratives told by the
leaders to the populace yep and those
narratives take hold and everybody
believes that and they have a distorted
view of the humanity on the other side
in fact especially during war you don't
even see the people on the other side as
as uh as human or as equal intelligence
or Worth or value as as you you tell all
kinds of narratives about them being uh
Nazis
or uh Dom or whatever whatever narrative
you want to Weaver on that or evil
mm-hmm uh but I think when you actually
meet them face to face you realize
they're like the same exactly right it's
an actual big shock for people to
realize like
um that they've been they've been
essentially lied to
um within their country and I I kind of
have faith that social media is as
ridiculous it is to say or any kind of
technology is able to bypass the the
walls that uh governments put up and
connect people directly and then you get
to realize ooh like people fall in love
across different nations and religions
and so on and that I think ultimately
can cure a lot of our ills especially
sort of in person just I also think that
if leaders met in person to have a
conversation that would have that could
cure a lot of the ills of the of the
world especially in private
um let me ask you about the women
running running the world okay uh so
gender does in part perhaps shape the
landscape of just our Human Experience
um so in what ways was the limiting it
in what ways was it empowering for you
to be a woman in the Middle East
my comment on like women running the
world I think it comes back to empathy
right which which has been a Common
Thread throughout my my entire career
and it's this this idea of human
connection
um once you build common ground with a
person or a group of people you build
trust you build loyalty you build
um friendship and then and then you can
turn that into like Behavior change and
motivation and persuasion so so it's
like empathy and emotions are just at
the center of of everything we do
and and I think being being from the
Middle East kind of this human
connection is is very strong like we
have this running joke that if you come
to Egypt for a visit
people are gonna we'll know everything
about your life like right away right I
have no problems asking you about your
personal life
um there's no like No Boundaries really
no personal boundaries in terms of
getting to know people we get
emotionally intimate like very very
quickly but I think people just get to
know each other like
authentically I guess
um you know there isn't this like
superficial level of getting to know
people you just try to get to know
people really he's a part of that
totally because you can put yourself in
this person's shoe and kind of
yeah imagine you know what what
challenges they're going through and
um so I think I've I've definitely taken
that with me
um
generosity is another one too like just
being generous with your time and love
and attention and even
with your wealth right even if you don't
have a lot of it you're still very
generous I think that's another
enjoying the humanity of other people
and so if you think there's a useful
difference between men and women
in that aspect and empathy
or is doing these kind of big General
groups does that hinder
progress
I don't I I actually don't want to over
generalize I mean I love the men I know
are like the most empathetic humans yeah
I strive to be yeah you're actually very
empathetic
um
yeah I thought so I don't want to over
generalize
um although one of the researchers I
worked with when I was at Cambridge
Professor Simon Baron Cohen he's uh
Sasha Baron Cohen's cousin yeah and he
runs the autism Research Center at
Cambridge and he's
written multiple books
um on autism and one of his one of his
theories is the empathy scale like the
systemizers and the empathizers and it
there's a disproportionate amount of
computer scientists and Engineers who
are systemizers and perhaps not great
empathizers
and then you know there's and there's
more men in that bucket I guess than
women and then there's more women in the
empathizer's bucket so again not not to
over generalize I sometimes wonder about
that is it's been frustrating to me how
many I guess systemizes there are in the
fields of robotics yeah it's actually
encouraging to me because I care about
obviously social Robotics and because uh
it's it it uh there's more opportunity
for people that are empathic exactly I
totally agree well right so it's nice
yes so everybody said talk to they don't
see the the human as interesting as um
like it does it's not exciting you want
to avoid the human at all costs it's a
it's a safety concern to be touching the
human
um which it is but it's also an
opportunity for a deep connection or
collaboration or all that kind of stuff
so and because most of most brilliant
roboticists don't care about the human
it's an opportunity right uh for in your
case it's a business opportunity too uh
but in general an opportunity to explore
those ideas so
in this beautiful journey to Cambridge
uh to you know UK and then to America
what uh what's the moment or moments
there were most transformational for you
as a scientist and as a leader so you
became an exceptionally successful CEO
founder researcher scientist and so on
um was there a face shift there where
like I can be somebody I can I can
really do something in this world
yes I actually just kind of a little bit
of background so the reason why I moved
from Cairo to Cambridge UK to do my phds
because I had a very you know clear
career plan I was like okay I'll go
abroad get my PhD I'm gonna crush it in
three or four years come back to Egypt
and teach
it was very clear very well laid out was
topic clear or no the topic well I did I
did my PhD around building artificial
emotional intelligence in your master
plan ahead of time when you're sitting
by the mango tree did you did you know
it's going to be artificial intelligence
no no no that I did not know although I
think I kind of knew
that I was going to be doing computer
science but I didn't know the specific
area
but I love teaching I mean I still love
teaching
so
I just yeah I just wanted to go abroad
get a PhD come back teach
why computer science can we just Linger
on that what because you're such an
empathic person who cares about emotion
humans and so on isn't it aren't
computers cold and
emotionless and just changing that yeah
I know but like isn't that the
or did you see computers as the having
the capability to actually
um
connect with humans I think that was
like my takeaway from my experience just
growing
pewter's sit at the center of how we
connect and communicate with one another
right or technology in general like I
remember my first experience being away
from my parents we communicated with a
fax machine but thank goodness for the
facts Miss Sheen because we could let
send letters back and forth to each
other this was pre-emails and stuff
um so I so I think
I think there's I think technology can
be not just transformative in terms of
productivity Etc it actually does change
how we connect with one another and can
I just defend the fax machine yeah
there's something
um like the haptic feel is the email is
All Digital there's something really
nice I still write letters to people
there's something nice about the haptic
aspect of the fax machine because you
still have to press you still have to do
something in the physical world to make
this thing a reality the sense right and
then it like comes out as a printout and
you can actually touch it and read it
yeah there's something there's something
lost when it's just an email
obviously I wonder how we can regain
some of that in the digital world which
goes to the metaverse and all those
kinds of things we'll talk about it
anyway so uh actually do a question on
that one do you still do you have photo
albums anymore do you still print photos
no no but I'm a minimalist okay so it
was one of the one of the painful steps
in my life was to scan all the photos
and let go of them and then let go of
all my books ah you let go of your books
yeah I switched to Kindle everything
kind
so I I thought
I thought okay
think 30 years from now
nobody's gonna have books anymore it's
the technology of digital books can get
better and better and better are you
really gonna be the guy that's still
romanticizing physical books are you
gonna be the old man on the porch who's
like kids yes so just get used to it
because it was it felt it still feels a
little bit uncomfortable to read on a on
a Kindle but get used to it like you
always I mean I'm trying to learn new
programming language is always you like
with technology you have to kind of
challenge yourself to adapt to it you
know I force myself to use tick tock now
uh that thing doesn't need much forcing
it pulls you in like a like a like the
worst kind of or the best kind of drug
anyway uh yeah uh so yeah but I do love
haptic things there's a magic to the
haptic even like touch screens It's
tricky to get right to get the
experience of uh a button yeah
anyway what were we talking about so AI
so the the journey your your whole plan
was to come back to Cairo and teach
right
and then what did the plan go wrong yeah
exactly right and then I got to
Cambridge and I fall in love with the
idea of research right and and kind of
embarking on a path nobody's explored
this path before you're building stuff
that nobody's built before and it's
challenging and it's hard and there's a
lot of non-believers I just totally love
that and at the end of my PhD I think
it's the meeting that changed the
trajectory of my life Professor Rosalind
Picard who's she runs the affective
Computing group at the MIT media lab I
had read her book I you know I was like
falling falling following all her
research AKA Roz yes AKA Ross and she
was giving a talk at a pattern
recognition conference in Cambridge and
she had a couple of hours to kill so she
emailed the lab and she said you know I
if any students want to meet with me
like just you know sign up here
and so I signed up for slots and I spent
like the weeks leading up to it
preparing for this meeting
and I want to show her a demo of my
research and everything and we met and
we ended up hitting it off like we
totally clicked and at the end of the
meeting she said do you want to come
work with me as a postdoc at MIT
and this is what I told her I was like
okay this would be a dream come true but
there's a husband waiting for me and
Cairo I kind of have to go back yeah
he said it's fine just commute
and I literally started commuting
between Cairo and Boston
um yeah it was it was a long commute and
I didn't I did that like every few weeks
I would you know hop on a plane and go
to Boston but that that changed the
trajectory of my life there was no
I kind of outgrew my dreams right I
didn't want to go back to Egypt anymore
and be faculty like that was no longer
my dream I had a dream what was the what
was it like to be at MIT
what was that culture shock
um you mean America in general but also
I mean Cambridge is its own culture so
what was MIT like and what was America
like
I wonder if that's similar to experience
at MIT I
was at the media lab in particular I was
just really
impressed is not the right word I didn't
expect the openness to like Innovation
and the acceptance of taking a risk and
failing like failure isn't really
accepted back in Egypt right you don't
want to fail like there's a fear of
failure
which I think has been hardwired in my
brain but you got to MIT and it's okay
to start things and if they don't work
out like it's okay you pivot to another
idea and that kind of thinking was just
very new to me I was liberating well
media a lot for people don't know MIT
media lab is its own beautiful thing
because
they I think more than other places at
MIT reach for Big Ideas and like they
try I mean I think I mean depending of
course on who but certainly with
Rosalind this you try wild stuff you try
big things and crazy things and and also
uh try to take things to completion so
you can demo them so always always have
a a demo like if you go one of the sad
things to me about robotics Labs at MIT
and there's like over 30 I think uh is
like usually when you show up to a
robotics lab there's not a single
working robot they're all broken all the
robots are broken which is like the
normal state of things because you're
working on them but it would be nice if
we lived in a world where robotics Labs
had uh wrote some robots functioning one
of my like favorite moments that just
sticks with me I visited Boston Dynamics
and there was a
first of all seeing so many spots so
many legged robots in one place I'm like
I'm home
but the Thrive yeah uh this is where I
was built uh the the cool thing was just
to see there was a random robot uh spot
was walking down the hall it's probably
doing mapping but it looked like he
wasn't doing anything and he was wearing
he or she I don't know but it it well I
I like I I like in my mind there are
people they have a backstory but this
one in particular definitely has a
backstory because uh he was wearing a
cowboy hat so as you saw a spot robot
with a cowboy hat walking down the hall
and it was just this feeling like
there's a life like he has a life he
probably has to commute back to his
family at night like there's a there's a
feeling like there's life instilled in
this robot and it's magical I don't know
it was It was kind of inspiring to see
they didn't say hello to did he say
hello to you yeah very there's a focused
nature to the robot no no listen I love
competence and focus and great like it
was not gonna get distracted by the the
shallowness of small talk there's a job
to be done and he was doing it so anyway
the the fact that it was working is a
beautiful thing and I think media lab
really Prides itself on trying to always
have a thing that's working it could
show off yes we used to call it demo or
die you you could not yeah you could not
like show up with like PowerPoint or
something you actually have to have it
working you know what my son who is now
13 I don't know if this is still his
life long goal or not but when he was a
little younger his dream is to build an
island that's just inhabited by robots
like no humans he just wants all these
robots to be connecting and having fun
and that's all there you go does he have
human
um does he have an idea of which robots
he loves most is it is it Roomba like
robots is it humanoid robots robot dogs
or is not clear yet um
laughing with a giant head yes it spins
right exactly can rotate and it's an eye
it has oh well like not glowing like
right right right exactly the Cal 9000
but the friendly version all right you
love that and then he just loves uh
um
yeah he just he I think he loves all
forms of robots actually so it embodies
intelligence yes I like I personally
like legged robots especially
uh anything that can wiggle its butt no
that's not the definition of what I love
but that's just technically what I've
been working on recently because I've I
have a bunch of legged robots now in
Austin and I've been oh that's so cool
doing I was I've been trying to uh have
them communicate affection with their
body in in different ways just for art
for art really because I I love the idea
of walking around with the robots
like as you would with the dog I think
it's inspiring to a lot of people
especially young people like kids love
kids love it
the parents like adults are scared of
robots but kids don't have this kind of
weird construction of the world that's
full of evil they love the cool things
yeah I remember when Adam was in first
grade so he must have been like seven or
so I went in to class with a whole bunch
of robots and like the emotion AI demo
and I asked the kids I was like do you
would you kids want to have a robot
you know robot friend or robot companion
everybody said yes and they wanted it
for all sorts of things like to help
them with their math homework and to
like be a friend so there's
it just struck me how there was no fear
of robots
it was a lot of adults have that like us
yeah none of that of course you want to
be very careful because you still have
to look at the lessons of history and
how robots can be used by the power
centers of the world to abuse your
rights and all that kind of stuff but
mostly it's good to enter anything new
with an excitement and optimism
speaking of Roz what have you learned
about science and life from Rosalind
Picard oh my god I've learned so many
things about life from Roz
um I think the thing I learned the most
is perseverance
uh
when I first met Roz we applied and she
invited me to be our postdoc we applied
for a grant to the National Science
Foundation
to apply some of our research to autism
and we got back
we were rejected rejected yeah and the
reasoning first time you were rejected
for for fun yeah yeah it was and I
basically I just took the rejection to
mean okay we're rejected it's done like
end of story right
that's great news they love the idea
they just they just don't think we can
do it so let's build it show them and
then reapply
and it was that oh my God that story
totally stuck with me um and and she's
like that in every aspect of her life
she just does not take no for an answer
reframe all negative feedback
uh it's a challenge that's a challenge
yes they like this yeah yeah it was all
right yeah uh what else about science in
general about how you see computers and
um also business and just every
everything about the world she's a very
uh a powerful brilliant woman like
yourself so is there some aspect of that
too
yeah I think Ross is actually very Faith
driven she has this like deep belief in
conviction
um yeah in in the good in the world and
humanity and
um I think that was meeting her and her
family was definitely like a defining
moment for me because that was when I
was like wow like you can be of a
different background and religion and
whatever and you can still have the same
core values
so that was that was yeah
I'm grateful to her so Roz if you're
listening thank you yeah she's great
she's been on this podcast before I'm
I'm I hope she'll be on I'm sure she'll
be on again
you are the founder and CEO of effectiva
which is a big company that was acquired
by another big company Smart Eye and
you're now the deputy CEO of smart eyes
so you're a powerful leader you're
brilliant you're brilliant scientist a
lot of people are inspired by you what
advice would you give especially to
young women but people in general who
dream of becoming powerful leaders like
yourself in a world where perhaps
um
in a world that's
perhaps doesn't uh give them a clear
easy path to do so whether we're talking
about Egypt or elsewhere
no
encapsulates
I think what I think is the biggest
challenge of all which is believing in
yourself right
I have had to like grapple with this
what I call now the Debbie Downer voice
in my head
the kind of basically
is just shattering all the time it's
basically saying oh no no no you can't
do this like you're not going to raise
money you can't start a company like
what business do you have like starting
a company or running a company or
selling a company like you name it
that's always like and
and I think my biggest advice to not
just women but people who have
who are Taking A New Path and you know
they're not sure
is to not let yourself and let your
thoughts be the biggest obstacle in your
way
and I've had to like really
work on myself
to not be my own biggest obstacle so you
got that negative voice yeah
um so is that am I the only one I don't
think I'm the only one no I have that
negative voice I'm not exactly sure
if it's a bad thing or a good thing I've
been really
torn about it because it's been a
lifelong companion it's hard to know
it's kind of um
it drives productivity and progress but
it can hold you back from taking big
leaps
I think you I the best I can say
is probably you have to somehow
be able to control it so turn it off
when it's not useful and turn it on when
it's useful
like I have from almost like a third
person perspective right somebody
somebody yeah like because it is useful
to uh to be critical
like after
um
again I just gave a talk yesterday
uh at MIT and I was just you know
there's so much love and it was such an
incredible experience so many amazing
people I got a chance to talk to but you
know afterwards when I when I went home
and just took this long walk it was
mostly just negative thoughts about me I
don't like I one basic stuff like I I
don't deserve any of it and second is
like
like why did you that was so dumb that
you said this that's so dumb like you
got you should have prepared that better
why did you say this
but I think it's good to hear that voice
out all right and like sit in that and
ultimately I think you grow from that
now when you're making really big
decisions about funding or starting a
company or taking a leap to go to the UK
or take a leave to go to America to to
work a media lab though yeah there's a
that's uh
you should be able to shut that off then
because
uh you should have like this weird
confidence almost like faith that you
said before that everything's gonna work
out so take the leap of faith take the
leap of faith despite all all the
negativity I mean there's there's some
of that you you actually tweeted a
really nice
uh tweet thread uh it says quote a year
ago a friend recommended I do Daily
Affirmations
and I was skeptical but I was going
through major transitions in my life so
I'd give it a shot and it set me on a
journey of self-acceptance and self-love
so what was that like you may maybe talk
through this idea of affirmations and
how that helped you yeah because really
like I'm just like
myself as a kind person in general but
I'm kind of mean to myself sometimes
yeah and so
um I've been doing journaling for almost
10 years now
um I used an app called day one and it's
awesome I just journal and I use it as
an opportunity to almost have a
conversation with the Debbie Downer
voice in my it's like a rebuttal right
like Debbie Downer says oh my God like
you you know you won't be able to raise
this round of funny I'm like okay let's
talk about it
record of device
it's literally like so I wouldn't I
don't know that I can shut off the voice
but I can have a conversation with it
and it just it just um and I bring data
to the table right
nice so so that was the journaling part
which I found very helpful but the
affirmation took it to a whole Next
Level and I I just love it I I'm I I'm a
year into doing this and you literally
wake up in the morning and the first
thing you do
I meditate first
um and then and then I write my
affirmations and it's it's the energy I
want to put out in the world that
hopefully will come right back to me so
I will say I always start with my smile
lights up the whole world
and I kid you not like people in the
street will stop me and say oh my God
like we love your smile yeah
[Laughter]
so so my affirmations will change
depending on you know what's happening
this day is it funny I know don't judge
don't judge no that's not what laughter
is not judgment it's just awesome I mean
it uh it's true but you're saying
affirmation somehow hope
kind of uh what is it they do work to
like remind you right of the kind of
person you are and the kind of person
you want to be which
actually maybe in verse order the kind
of person you want to be and that helps
you become the kind of person you
actually are that's
I think it's intentionality to like
what you're doing right and so by the
way I was laughing because my
affirmations which I also do are the
opposite oh you do oh I don't have a my
smile lights up
maybe I should add that because like I I
have I just I have every oh my boy I
just it's uh it's much more stoic like
about focused about this that's kind of
okay but the joy the emotion that you're
just in that little affirmation is
beautiful so maybe I should add that
yeah I have some like focused stuff yeah
but that's usually but that's a cool
start it's just after all they're like
smiling you're inspiring playful and
joyful and all that and then it's like
okay I kick butt let's get shit done all
right let's get shit done that for me
okay cool so uh like what else is on
there
oh what else is on there
um well
I I have I'm als I'm I'm a magnet for
all sorts of things so I'm an amazing
people magnet I attract like awesome
people into my universe
uh so that's an actual affirmation yes
that's great yeah so that that's and
then yeah and that somehow manifests
itself into like working I think I think
so
yeah like can you speak to like why it
feels good to do the affirmations
grounds the day
and then it allows me to instead of just
like being pulled back and forth like
throughout the day it just like grounds
me I'm like okay like this thing
happened it's not exactly what I wanted
it to be but I'm patient or I'm you know
I'm
I trust that the universe will do
amazing things for me which is one of my
other consistent affirmations or I'm an
amazing Mom right and so I can grapple
with all the feelings of mom guilt that
I have all the time
um or here's another one I'm a love
magnet and I literally say I will kind
of picture the person that I'd love to
end up with and I write it all down and
hasn't happened yet but what do you what
are you picturing because of Brad Pitt
Brad Pitt because that's what I picture
okay that's what you picture yeah okay
running holding hands running together
um no more like Fight Club that uh The
Fight Club Brad Pitt where he's like
staying all right people will know okay
anyway I'm sorry I'll get off on that do
you have uh like when you're thinking
about the being a love magnet in that
way are you picturing specific people or
is this almost like um
in the space of like energy
right it's somebody who
um is smart and well accomplished and
successful in their life but they're
generous and they're well traveled and
they want to travel the world things
like that like their head over heels
into me is like I know it sounds super
silly but it's literally what I write
yeah and I believe it'll happen one day
oh you actually write so you don't say
it out loud no I write it I write all my
affirmations
yeah if I'm alone I'll say it out loud
yeah
I said try that huh it I think it's
which
what feels more powerful to you to me
more powerful
saying stuff feels more powerful yeah
yeah writing is
um
writing feels like I'm losing
losing the words like losing the power
of the words maybe because I write slow
do you hand write no I I type it's on
this app it's day one basically and I
just I can look the best thing about it
is I can look back yeah and see like a
year ago what was I affirming right so
it also changes over time it
hasn't like changed a lot but it but the
focus kind of changes over time I got it
yeah I see the same exact thing over and
over and over oh you do okay there's a
comfort in the in the sameness of it
uh well actually let me jump around
because let me ask you about because we
talked all this talk about Brad Pitt or
maybe what's going on inside my head
um let me ask you about dating in
general
um
you tweeted are you based in Boston in
single question mark and then you
pointed to a startup singles night
sponsored by smile dating app because I
mean this is jumping around a little bit
because since you mentioned
um
can AI help solve this uh dating love
problem what do you think this problem
of connection
that is part of the human condition can
AI help that you yourself are in the
search affirming maybe that's what I
should affirm like build an AI build an
AI that finds love
I think
I think there must be a science behind
that first moment you meet a person and
you either have chemistry or you don't
right like you I guess that was the
question I was asking would you put a
brilliantly is that a science or an art
oh I think there are like there's actual
chemicals that get exchanged when people
two people meet oh I don't know about
that
but okay I like how you're changing yeah
yeah changing your mind as we're
describing it but it feels that way
right but it's what science shows us is
sometimes we can explain with the rigor
the things that feel like magic right
right so maybe you can remove all the
magic maybe it's like I honestly think
like I said that Goodreads should be a
dating app which like books I I wonder I
wonder if you look at just like books or
content you've consumed I mean that's
essentially what YouTube does when it
does recommend a recommendation if you
just look at your footprint of content
consumed if there's an overlap but maybe
interesting difference with an overlap
that some I'm sure this is a machine
learning problem that's solvable
like this person is very likely to be
not only there to be chemistry in the
short term but a good lifelong partner
to grow together I bet you it's a good
machine learning problem we just need
the data let's do it well
two of us that they're ought to be ought
to be learning algorithm that can ingest
all this data and basically say I think
the following 10 people would be
interesting connections for you right
um and and so smile dating app kind of
took one particular angle which is humor
it matches People based on their humor
Styles which is one of the main
ingredients of a successful relationship
like if you meet somebody and they can
make you laugh like that's a good thing
and if you develop like internal jokes
like inside jokes and you're bantering
like that's fun yeah so I think yeah
yeah definitely definitely but yeah
that's the uh
the number of and the rate of inside
joke generation
you could probably measure that and then
optimize it over the first few days
right and then we're just turning this
into a machine learning problem I love
it
uh but for somebody like you who's
exceptionally successful and busy
um
is there
is there science to that aspect of
dating is it tricky is there advice you
can give oh my God I'd give the worst
advice well I can tell you like I have a
spreadsheet I'm stretchy that's great is
that a good or a bad thing do you regret
the spreadsheet uh well I don't know
what's the name of this spreadshe Is It
Love
the date track dating tracker it's very
like love tracker yeah and there's a
rating system I'm sure yeah there's like
weights and stuff and it's too close to
home oh is it do you also well I don't
have a spreadsheet but I would now that
you say it it seems like a good idea oh
no
uh turning into Data
um yeah I do wish that somebody else had
a spreadsheet about me hmm if you know
if it was a cut like like I said like
you said uh convert collect a lot of
data about us in a way that's privacy
preserving that I own the data I can
control it and then use that data to
find not I mean not just romantic love
but uh collaborators friends all that
kind of stuff it seems like the data is
there right uh the that's the problem
social networks are trying to solve but
I think they're doing a really poor job
even Facebook tried to get into a dating
app uh business and I think there's so
many components to running a successful
the company that connects human beings
and part of that is
you know uh having Engineers they care
about the human side right as you know
extremely well it's not it's not easy to
find those but but you don't also don't
want just people that care about the
human they also have to be good
Engineers so it's like you have to find
this this beautiful mix and for some
reason just empirically speaking
it's it people who have not done a good
job of that of building companies like
that and it must mean that it's a
difficult problem to solve dating apps
it seems difficult Okay Cupid tender all
those kind of stuff
they seem
to find of course they work but they
seem
to not work as well as I would imagine
it's possible like right with data
wouldn't you be able to find better
human connection it's like arrange
marriages on steroids right right
arranged by Machine learning algorithms
arranged by Machine learning algorithm
but but not a superficial one I think a
lot of the dating apps out there are
just so superficial they're just
matching on like high level criteria
that aren't ingredients for successful
partnership
but you know what's missing though too I
don't know how to fix that the
Serendipity piece of it like how do you
engineer Serendipity like this random
like chance encounter and then you fall
in love with the person like I don't
know how a dating app can can do that so
it has to be a little bit of Randomness
Maybe
every 10th match is just a you know
yeah somebody that the algorithm
wouldn't have necessarily recommended
but it's it allows for a little bit of
well it can also you know it can also
trick you into thinking it sounded to be
by like somehow showing you a tweet of a
person
that he thinks you'll match well with
but do it accidentally as part of
another search right and like you just
notice it like and then you get it you
go down a rabbit hole and you connect
them in outside the app to like so you
connect with this person outside the
house somehow so it's just it creates
that moment of meeting
um of course you have to think of from
an app perspective how you can turn that
into a business but I think ultimately a
business that helps people find love in
any way like that's what Apple was about
create products that people love right
that's beautiful I mean that's you got
to make money somehow right if you help
people fall in love
personally with the product find
self-love or another human being you'r