Kind: captions
Language: en
there's a broader question here right as
we build
socially and emotionally intelligent
machines what does that mean about our
relationship with them and then more
broadly our relationship with one
another right because this machine is
going to be programmed to be amazing at
empathy by definition right it's going
to always be there for you it's not
going to get bored
I don't know how I feel about that I
think about that a lot
the following is a conversation with
Rana l kalyubi a Pioneer in the field of
emotion recognition and human-centric
artificial intelligence she is the
founder of effectiva Deputy CEO of Smart
Eye author of girl decoded and one of
the most brilliant kind inspiring and
fun human beings I've gotten the chance
to talk to
this is the Lex Friedman podcast to
support it please check out our sponsors
in the description and now dear friends
here's Rana l kalyubi
you grew up in the Middle East in Egypt
what is the memory from that time that
makes you smile or maybe a memory that
stands out as uh helping your mind take
shape and helping you to find yourself
in this world so the memory that stands
out is uh we used to live in my
grandma's house she used to have these
mango trees in her garden
and in the summer and so mango season
was like July and August and so in the
Summer she would invite all my aunts and
uncles and cousins and you know like it
was just like maybe there were like 20
or 30 people in the house and she would
cook all this amazing food and
um us the kids we were like go down the
garden and we would like pick all these
mangoes and
um and I don't know I think it's just
the bringing people together like that
always stuck with me the warmth around
the mango tree yeah around the mango
tree and there's just like the The Joy
the joy of of being together around food
and and
um I'm a terrible cook so I guess that
didn't
that that memory didn't translate to me
kind of doing the same I love hosting
people do you remember colors smells is
that what like what how does memory work
yeah like what do you visualize you
should visualize people's faces
Smiles do is there colors is there like
a a theme to The Colors is it smells
because of food involved yeah I think
that's a great question so the those
Egyptian mangoes there's there's a
particular type that I love and it's
called darwazi mangoes and they're kind
of you know they're oval and they have a
little red in them so I kind of they're
red and mango colored on the outside so
I remember that this red indicate like
extra sweetness is that yes that means
like it's it's nicely sweet yeah it's
nice and ripe and stuff yeah
oh yeah what uh what's like a definitive
food of Egypt you know there's like
these almost their typical Foods in
different parts of the world like
Ukraine
invented borscht bush is this beet soup
with that you put sour cream on you see
it's not I can't see if you played it
that way if you if you know if you know
what it is I think you know is delicious
but if I explain it it's just not gonna
sound delicious I feel like beet soup
this doesn't make any sense but that's
kind of and you probably have actually
seen pictures of it because it's one of
the traditional foods in Ukraine in
Russia in different parts of the Slavic
uh world so this but it's become so
cliche and stereotypical that you almost
don't mention it but it's still
delicious like I I visited Ukraine it's
I eat that every single day so do you um
do you make get yourself how hard is it
to make no I don't know I think to make
it well like anything like Italians they
say well tomato sauce is easy to make
but it didn't make it right that's like
a generational uh skill so anyway is
there something like that in Egypt is
there a culture of food there is and and
actually
um
called
and it's um It's Made of This green
plant it's like it's somewhere between
spinach and kale and you mince it and
then you cook it in like chicken broth
and my grandma used to make and my mom
makes it really well and I try to make
it but it's not as great so we used to
have that and then we used to have it
alongside stuffed pigeons I'm
pescetarian now so I don't eat that
anymore but
stuffed pigeons yeah it's like it was
really yummy it's the one thing I miss
about
you know
now that I'm pescetarian and I don't eat
the stuffed pigeons yeah the stuff
pigeons is it what are they stuffed with
if if that doesn't bother you too much
to describe no no it's soft with a lot
of like just rice and um oh gosh yes
rice yeah so and yeah you also you've
said that you're first in your book that
your first computer was an Atari and
Space Invaders was your favorite game uh
is that when you first fell in love with
computers would you say yeah I would say
so video games or just the computer
itself just something about the machine
oh this thing
It's Magic in here yeah I think the
magical moment is definitely like
playing video games with my I have two
younger sisters and we just like had fun
together like playing games but the
other memory I have is my first code the
first code I wrote I wrote
um I drew a Christmas tree
and I'm Muslim right so it's kind of it
was kind of funny that I that I that the
first thing I I did was like this
Christmas tree so
um yeah and that's when I realized wow
you can you can write code to do all
sorts of like really cool stuff
I must have been like six or seven at
the time so you can write programs and
the programs do stuff for you that's
power that's important if you think
about it that's empowering hey hi yeah I
know well it is I don't know if that you
see like
I don't know if many people think of it
that way when I first learned to program
they just love the puzzle of it like oh
this is cool it's pretty it's a
Christmas tree but like it's power it is
like you eventually I guess you couldn't
at the time but eventually this thing if
it's interesting enough if it's a pretty
enough Christmas tree it can be run by
millions of people and bring them Joy
like that little thing and then because
it's digital it's easy to spread so like
you just created something that's easily
spreadable to millions of people totally
it's hard to think that way when you're
six
in the book you write I am who I am
because I was raised by a particular set
of parents both modern and conservative
forward-thinking yet locked in Tradition
I'm a Muslim and I feel I'm stronger
more centered for it I adhere to the
values of My Religion even if I'm not as
beautiful as I once was and I am a new
American and I'm thriving on the energy
vitality and entrepreneurial spirits of
this great country
so let me ask you about your parents
what have you learned about life from
them
especially when you were young so both
my parents they're Egyptian but they
moved to Kuwait right out they actually
there's a cute story about how they met
so my dad taught cobal in the 70s nice
and my mom decided to learn programming
so she signed up to take his cobal
programming class
and he tried to date her and she was
like no no I don't date and so he's like
okay I'll propose and that's how they
got married whoa I know right exactly
right
that's really impressive so um those
those Cobalt guys know how to how to
impress a lady
so so yes what have you learned from
them so definitely Grit one of the core
values in our family is just hard work
there were no Slackers in our family
and that's something I've definitely
it's definitely stayed with me
both both as a professional but also my
personal life
um but I also think my mom my mom always
used to like
I don't know it was like unconditional
love like I just knew my parents would
be there for me
kind of regardless of what I chose to do
um I think that's very powerful and they
got tested on it because I kind of
challenged you know I challenged
cultural norms and I kind of took a
different path I guess than what's
expected in of you know a woman in the
Middle East and then they and I you know
they still love me which is which is I'm
so grateful for that one was like a
moment that was the most challenging for
them which moment
where they kind of they had to come face
to face with the fact that you're a bit
of a rebel
just gotten married but I decided to go
do my PhD at Cambridge University
and because my husband at the time he's
now my ex ran a company in Cairo he was
going to stay in Egypt so it was going
to be a long distance relationship and
that's very unusual in the Middle East
for a woman to just head out and kind of
EX you know pursue her career and so my
dad actually my dad and my my
parents-in-law both said
you know we do not approve of you doing
this but now you're under the
jurisdiction of your husband so he can
make the call
and luckily for me he was supportive he
he said you know this is your dream come
true we've always wanted to do a PhD I'm
going to support you
um so I think that was the first time
where
you know I I challenged the cultural
norms was that scary oh my God yes it
was totally scary it was the biggest
culture shock from uh from there to to
Cambridge
to London well that was also during
right around September 11th so everyone
thought that there was going to be a
third world war or it was really
okay and and I and I at the time I used
to wear the hijab so I was very visibly
Muslim and so my parents were they were
afraid for my safety but anyways when I
got to Cambridge because I was so scared
I decided to take off my head scarf and
wear a hat instead so I just went to
class wearing these like British hats
which was in my opinion actually worse
than just showing up in a head scarf
because it was just so awkward right
like sitting in class with like all
these trying to fit in yeah yeah yeah
yeah yeah so after a few weeks of doing
that I was like to heck with that I'm
just gonna go back to wearing my head
scarf yeah you wore the the hijab uh so
starting in 2000 and for 12 years after
so it's always whenever you're in public
you have to wear the head covering can
you speak to that to the hijab maybe
your mixed feelings about it like what
does it represent in its best case what
does it represent in the worst case yeah
I wore it voluntarily I was not forced
to wear it and in fact I was one of the
very first women in my family to decide
to put on the hijab
and
my family thought it was really odd
right like there was they were like why
do you want to put this on and and and
at its best it's it's a sign of modesty
humility
um it's like me wearing a suit people
are like why are you wearing a suit it's
a step back into some kind of tradition
or respect for traditions of sorts right
so you said because it's by choice
you're kind of free to make that choice
right to celebrate a tradition of
modesty exactly and and and I actually
like made it my own I remember I would
really match the color of my head scarf
with what I was wearing like I it was a
form of self-expression and I and at its
best I I loved wearing it you know I
have a lot of questions around how we
practice religion and religion and you
know and and I think and I think also it
was a time where I was spending a lot of
time going back and forth between the US
and Egypt and I started meeting a lot of
people in the U.S who were just amazing
people very um purpose-driven people who
have very strong core values but they're
not Muslim that's okay right and so that
was when I just had a lot of questions
and politically also the situation in
Egypt was when the Muslim Brotherhood
ran the country and I didn't agree with
their ideology
um it was at a time when I was going
through a divorce like it was like it
was like just the perfect storm of like
political personal conditions where I
was like this doesn't feel like me
anymore
and it took a lot of courage to take it
off because uh culturally it's not it's
okay if you don't wear it but it's
really not okay to wear it and then take
it off
but you're still so you have to do that
while still maintaining a deep core and
pride in the origins in your origin
story
totally so still being
Egyptian still being a Muslim right and
being I think generally like Faith
driven but but
yeah but what that means changes year by
year for you it's like a personal
Journey yeah exactly what would you say
is the role of faith in that part of the
world
like how do you say you mentioned it a
bit in the book too yeah I mean I think
I think there is something really
powerful about just believing that
there's a bigger Force you you know
there's a kind of surrendering I guess
that comes with religion and you
surrender and you have this deep
conviction that it's gonna be okay
you're right like the universe is out to
like do amazing things for you and it's
gonna be okay and there's strength to
that like even when you're going through
adversity
um
you just know that it's going to work
out yeah it gives you like an inner
peace a calmness exactly exactly yeah
that's good it's faith in all the
meanings of that word right faith that
everything is going to be okay and it is
because time passes
and time cures all things it's like a
calmness right with the chaos of the
world yeah and also there's like
a silver I'm a True Believer of this
that something at a specific Moment In
Time
can look like it's catastrophic and it's
not what you wanted in life
but then time passes and then you look
back and there's the Silver Lining right
it maybe closed the door but it opened a
new door for you
and so I'm a True Believer in that that
you know there's a silver lining and
and almost anything in life you just
have to have this like a faith or
conviction that it's going to work out
so such a beautiful way to see a shitty
feeling so if you're if you feel shitty
about a current situation
I mean it almost is always true
uh unless it's the cliches thing of uh
if it doesn't kill you whatever doesn't
kill you makes you stronger it's
it does seem that over time when you
take a perspective on things that uh
the the hardest moments and periods of
your life are the most meaningful
yeah yeah so over time you get to have
that perspective right
uh what what about because you mentioned
uh Kuwait uh
what about let me ask you about war
what's the role of War and Peace maybe
even the Big Love and Hate in that part
of the world because it does seem to be
a part of the world where there's
turmoil there was turmoil there's still
turmoil
it is so unfortunate honestly it's
it's such a waste of human resources and
and and
yeah and human mind share I mean and at
the end of the day we all kind of want
the same things we want you know we want
human connection we want joy we want to
feel fulfilled we want to feel
you know a life of purpose and
I just I just find it baffling honestly
that we are still having to Grapple with
that
um
I have a story to share about this you
know I grew up in need on Egyptian
American now but but you know
um originally from Egypt and when I
first got to Cambridge it turned out my
office mate like my PhD kind of
you know she ended up you know we ended
up becoming friends but she was from
Israel
and we didn't know yeah we didn't know
how it was going to be like
oh did you guys sit there just staring
at each other for a bit
actually
turns out
he emailed our PhD advisor
asked him if she thought it was going to
be okay yeah
um and oh this is around 9 11 too yeah
and and Peter um Peter Robinson our PhD
advisor was like yeah like this is an
academic institution just show up and we
became super good friends we were both
um new moms like we both had our kids
during our PhD we were both doing
artificial emotional intelligence she
was looking at speech I was looking at
the face we just had so the culture was
so similar our jokes were similar it was
just I was like why on Earth are our
countries
why is there all this like war and
tension and I think it falls back to the
narrative right if you change the
narrative like whoever creates this
Narrative of War
I don't know we should have women Run
the World
yeah that's that's one solution the good
women because there's also evil women as
well true okay
[Laughter]
um but yes yes there could be less war
for women around the world the the other
aspect is uh it doesn't matter the
gender the people in power
you know I get to see this with with
Ukraine and Russian different
um parts of the world around that
conflict now uh and that's happening in
Yemen as well and everywhere else
there's these uh narratives told by the
leaders to the populace yep and those
narratives take hold and everybody
believes that and they have a distorted
view of the humanity on the other side
in fact especially during war you don't
even see the people on the other side as
as uh as human or as equal intelligence
or Worth or value as as you you tell all
kinds of narratives about them being uh
Nazis
or uh Dom or whatever whatever narrative
you want to Weaver on that or evil
mm-hmm uh but I think when you actually
meet them face to face you realize
they're like the same exactly right it's
an actual big shock for people to
realize like
um that they've been they've been
essentially lied to
um within their country and I I kind of
have faith that social media is as
ridiculous it is to say or any kind of
technology is able to bypass the the
walls that uh governments put up and
connect people directly and then you get
to realize ooh like people fall in love
across different nations and religions
and so on and that I think ultimately
can cure a lot of our ills especially
sort of in person just I also think that
if leaders met in person to have a
conversation that would have that could
cure a lot of the ills of the of the
world especially in private
um let me ask you about the women
running running the world okay uh so
gender does in part perhaps shape the
landscape of just our Human Experience
um so in what ways was the limiting it
in what ways was it empowering for you
to be a woman in the Middle East
my comment on like women running the
world I think it comes back to empathy
right which which has been a Common
Thread throughout my my entire career
and it's this this idea of human
connection
um once you build common ground with a
person or a group of people you build
trust you build loyalty you build
um friendship and then and then you can
turn that into like Behavior change and
motivation and persuasion so so it's
like empathy and emotions are just at
the center of of everything we do
and and I think being being from the
Middle East kind of this human
connection is is very strong like we
have this running joke that if you come
to Egypt for a visit
people are gonna we'll know everything
about your life like right away right I
have no problems asking you about your
personal life
um there's no like No Boundaries really
no personal boundaries in terms of
getting to know people we get
emotionally intimate like very very
quickly but I think people just get to
know each other like
authentically I guess
um you know there isn't this like
superficial level of getting to know
people you just try to get to know
people really he's a part of that
totally because you can put yourself in
this person's shoe and kind of
yeah imagine you know what what
challenges they're going through and
um so I think I've I've definitely taken
that with me
um
generosity is another one too like just
being generous with your time and love
and attention and even
with your wealth right even if you don't
have a lot of it you're still very
generous I think that's another
enjoying the humanity of other people
and so if you think there's a useful
difference between men and women
in that aspect and empathy
or is doing these kind of big General
groups does that hinder
progress
I don't I I actually don't want to over
generalize I mean I love the men I know
are like the most empathetic humans yeah
I strive to be yeah you're actually very
empathetic
um
yeah I thought so I don't want to over
generalize
um although one of the researchers I
worked with when I was at Cambridge
Professor Simon Baron Cohen he's uh
Sasha Baron Cohen's cousin yeah and he
runs the autism Research Center at
Cambridge and he's
written multiple books
um on autism and one of his one of his
theories is the empathy scale like the
systemizers and the empathizers and it
there's a disproportionate amount of
computer scientists and Engineers who
are systemizers and perhaps not great
empathizers
and then you know there's and there's
more men in that bucket I guess than
women and then there's more women in the
empathizer's bucket so again not not to
over generalize I sometimes wonder about
that is it's been frustrating to me how
many I guess systemizes there are in the
fields of robotics yeah it's actually
encouraging to me because I care about
obviously social Robotics and because uh
it's it it uh there's more opportunity
for people that are empathic exactly I
totally agree well right so it's nice
yes so everybody said talk to they don't
see the the human as interesting as um
like it does it's not exciting you want
to avoid the human at all costs it's a
it's a safety concern to be touching the
human
um which it is but it's also an
opportunity for a deep connection or
collaboration or all that kind of stuff
so and because most of most brilliant
roboticists don't care about the human
it's an opportunity right uh for in your
case it's a business opportunity too uh
but in general an opportunity to explore
those ideas so
in this beautiful journey to Cambridge
uh to you know UK and then to America
what uh what's the moment or moments
there were most transformational for you
as a scientist and as a leader so you
became an exceptionally successful CEO
founder researcher scientist and so on
um was there a face shift there where
like I can be somebody I can I can
really do something in this world
yes I actually just kind of a little bit
of background so the reason why I moved
from Cairo to Cambridge UK to do my phds
because I had a very you know clear
career plan I was like okay I'll go
abroad get my PhD I'm gonna crush it in
three or four years come back to Egypt
and teach
it was very clear very well laid out was
topic clear or no the topic well I did I
did my PhD around building artificial
emotional intelligence in your master
plan ahead of time when you're sitting
by the mango tree did you did you know
it's going to be artificial intelligence
no no no that I did not know although I
think I kind of knew
that I was going to be doing computer
science but I didn't know the specific
area
but I love teaching I mean I still love
teaching
so
I just yeah I just wanted to go abroad
get a PhD come back teach
why computer science can we just Linger
on that what because you're such an
empathic person who cares about emotion
humans and so on isn't it aren't
computers cold and
emotionless and just changing that yeah
I know but like isn't that the
or did you see computers as the having
the capability to actually
um
connect with humans I think that was
like my takeaway from my experience just
growing
pewter's sit at the center of how we
connect and communicate with one another
right or technology in general like I
remember my first experience being away
from my parents we communicated with a
fax machine but thank goodness for the
facts Miss Sheen because we could let
send letters back and forth to each
other this was pre-emails and stuff
um so I so I think
I think there's I think technology can
be not just transformative in terms of
productivity Etc it actually does change
how we connect with one another and can
I just defend the fax machine yeah
there's something
um like the haptic feel is the email is
All Digital there's something really
nice I still write letters to people
there's something nice about the haptic
aspect of the fax machine because you
still have to press you still have to do
something in the physical world to make
this thing a reality the sense right and
then it like comes out as a printout and
you can actually touch it and read it
yeah there's something there's something
lost when it's just an email
obviously I wonder how we can regain
some of that in the digital world which
goes to the metaverse and all those
kinds of things we'll talk about it
anyway so uh actually do a question on
that one do you still do you have photo
albums anymore do you still print photos
no no but I'm a minimalist okay so it
was one of the one of the painful steps
in my life was to scan all the photos
and let go of them and then let go of
all my books ah you let go of your books
yeah I switched to Kindle everything
kind
so I I thought
I thought okay
think 30 years from now
nobody's gonna have books anymore it's
the technology of digital books can get
better and better and better are you
really gonna be the guy that's still
romanticizing physical books are you
gonna be the old man on the porch who's
like kids yes so just get used to it
because it was it felt it still feels a
little bit uncomfortable to read on a on
a Kindle but get used to it like you
always I mean I'm trying to learn new
programming language is always you like
with technology you have to kind of
challenge yourself to adapt to it you
know I force myself to use tick tock now
uh that thing doesn't need much forcing
it pulls you in like a like a like the
worst kind of or the best kind of drug
anyway uh yeah uh so yeah but I do love
haptic things there's a magic to the
haptic even like touch screens It's
tricky to get right to get the
experience of uh a button yeah
anyway what were we talking about so AI
so the the journey your your whole plan
was to come back to Cairo and teach
right
and then what did the plan go wrong yeah
exactly right and then I got to
Cambridge and I fall in love with the
idea of research right and and kind of
embarking on a path nobody's explored
this path before you're building stuff
that nobody's built before and it's
challenging and it's hard and there's a
lot of non-believers I just totally love
that and at the end of my PhD I think
it's the meeting that changed the
trajectory of my life Professor Rosalind
Picard who's she runs the affective
Computing group at the MIT media lab I
had read her book I you know I was like
falling falling following all her
research AKA Roz yes AKA Ross and she
was giving a talk at a pattern
recognition conference in Cambridge and
she had a couple of hours to kill so she
emailed the lab and she said you know I
if any students want to meet with me
like just you know sign up here
and so I signed up for slots and I spent
like the weeks leading up to it
preparing for this meeting
and I want to show her a demo of my
research and everything and we met and
we ended up hitting it off like we
totally clicked and at the end of the
meeting she said do you want to come
work with me as a postdoc at MIT
and this is what I told her I was like
okay this would be a dream come true but
there's a husband waiting for me and
Cairo I kind of have to go back yeah
he said it's fine just commute
and I literally started commuting
between Cairo and Boston
um yeah it was it was a long commute and
I didn't I did that like every few weeks
I would you know hop on a plane and go
to Boston but that that changed the
trajectory of my life there was no
I kind of outgrew my dreams right I
didn't want to go back to Egypt anymore
and be faculty like that was no longer
my dream I had a dream what was the what
was it like to be at MIT
what was that culture shock
um you mean America in general but also
I mean Cambridge is its own culture so
what was MIT like and what was America
like
I wonder if that's similar to experience
at MIT I
was at the media lab in particular I was
just really
impressed is not the right word I didn't
expect the openness to like Innovation
and the acceptance of taking a risk and
failing like failure isn't really
accepted back in Egypt right you don't
want to fail like there's a fear of
failure
which I think has been hardwired in my
brain but you got to MIT and it's okay
to start things and if they don't work
out like it's okay you pivot to another
idea and that kind of thinking was just
very new to me I was liberating well
media a lot for people don't know MIT
media lab is its own beautiful thing
because
they I think more than other places at
MIT reach for Big Ideas and like they
try I mean I think I mean depending of
course on who but certainly with
Rosalind this you try wild stuff you try
big things and crazy things and and also
uh try to take things to completion so
you can demo them so always always have
a a demo like if you go one of the sad
things to me about robotics Labs at MIT
and there's like over 30 I think uh is
like usually when you show up to a
robotics lab there's not a single
working robot they're all broken all the
robots are broken which is like the
normal state of things because you're
working on them but it would be nice if
we lived in a world where robotics Labs
had uh wrote some robots functioning one
of my like favorite moments that just
sticks with me I visited Boston Dynamics
and there was a
first of all seeing so many spots so
many legged robots in one place I'm like
I'm home
but the Thrive yeah uh this is where I
was built uh the the cool thing was just
to see there was a random robot uh spot
was walking down the hall it's probably
doing mapping but it looked like he
wasn't doing anything and he was wearing
he or she I don't know but it it well I
I like I I like in my mind there are
people they have a backstory but this
one in particular definitely has a
backstory because uh he was wearing a
cowboy hat so as you saw a spot robot
with a cowboy hat walking down the hall
and it was just this feeling like
there's a life like he has a life he
probably has to commute back to his
family at night like there's a there's a
feeling like there's life instilled in
this robot and it's magical I don't know
it was It was kind of inspiring to see
they didn't say hello to did he say
hello to you yeah very there's a focused
nature to the robot no no listen I love
competence and focus and great like it
was not gonna get distracted by the the
shallowness of small talk there's a job
to be done and he was doing it so anyway
the the fact that it was working is a
beautiful thing and I think media lab
really Prides itself on trying to always
have a thing that's working it could
show off yes we used to call it demo or
die you you could not yeah you could not
like show up with like PowerPoint or
something you actually have to have it
working you know what my son who is now
13 I don't know if this is still his
life long goal or not but when he was a
little younger his dream is to build an
island that's just inhabited by robots
like no humans he just wants all these
robots to be connecting and having fun
and that's all there you go does he have
human
um does he have an idea of which robots
he loves most is it is it Roomba like
robots is it humanoid robots robot dogs
or is not clear yet um
laughing with a giant head yes it spins
right exactly can rotate and it's an eye
it has oh well like not glowing like
right right right exactly the Cal 9000
but the friendly version all right you
love that and then he just loves uh
um
yeah he just he I think he loves all
forms of robots actually so it embodies
intelligence yes I like I personally
like legged robots especially
uh anything that can wiggle its butt no
that's not the definition of what I love
but that's just technically what I've
been working on recently because I've I
have a bunch of legged robots now in
Austin and I've been oh that's so cool
doing I was I've been trying to uh have
them communicate affection with their
body in in different ways just for art
for art really because I I love the idea
of walking around with the robots
like as you would with the dog I think
it's inspiring to a lot of people
especially young people like kids love
kids love it
the parents like adults are scared of
robots but kids don't have this kind of
weird construction of the world that's
full of evil they love the cool things
yeah I remember when Adam was in first
grade so he must have been like seven or
so I went in to class with a whole bunch
of robots and like the emotion AI demo
and I asked the kids I was like do you
would you kids want to have a robot
you know robot friend or robot companion
everybody said yes and they wanted it
for all sorts of things like to help
them with their math homework and to
like be a friend so there's
it just struck me how there was no fear
of robots
it was a lot of adults have that like us
yeah none of that of course you want to
be very careful because you still have
to look at the lessons of history and
how robots can be used by the power
centers of the world to abuse your
rights and all that kind of stuff but
mostly it's good to enter anything new
with an excitement and optimism
speaking of Roz what have you learned
about science and life from Rosalind
Picard oh my god I've learned so many
things about life from Roz
um I think the thing I learned the most
is perseverance
uh
when I first met Roz we applied and she
invited me to be our postdoc we applied
for a grant to the National Science
Foundation
to apply some of our research to autism
and we got back
we were rejected rejected yeah and the
reasoning first time you were rejected
for for fun yeah yeah it was and I
basically I just took the rejection to
mean okay we're rejected it's done like
end of story right
that's great news they love the idea
they just they just don't think we can
do it so let's build it show them and
then reapply
and it was that oh my God that story
totally stuck with me um and and she's
like that in every aspect of her life
she just does not take no for an answer
reframe all negative feedback
uh it's a challenge that's a challenge
yes they like this yeah yeah it was all
right yeah uh what else about science in
general about how you see computers and
um also business and just every
everything about the world she's a very
uh a powerful brilliant woman like
yourself so is there some aspect of that
too
yeah I think Ross is actually very Faith
driven she has this like deep belief in
conviction
um yeah in in the good in the world and
humanity and
um I think that was meeting her and her
family was definitely like a defining
moment for me because that was when I
was like wow like you can be of a
different background and religion and
whatever and you can still have the same
core values
so that was that was yeah
I'm grateful to her so Roz if you're
listening thank you yeah she's great
she's been on this podcast before I'm
I'm I hope she'll be on I'm sure she'll
be on again
you are the founder and CEO of effectiva
which is a big company that was acquired
by another big company Smart Eye and
you're now the deputy CEO of smart eyes
so you're a powerful leader you're
brilliant you're brilliant scientist a
lot of people are inspired by you what
advice would you give especially to
young women but people in general who
dream of becoming powerful leaders like
yourself in a world where perhaps
um
in a world that's
perhaps doesn't uh give them a clear
easy path to do so whether we're talking
about Egypt or elsewhere
no
encapsulates
I think what I think is the biggest
challenge of all which is believing in
yourself right
I have had to like grapple with this
what I call now the Debbie Downer voice
in my head
the kind of basically
is just shattering all the time it's
basically saying oh no no no you can't
do this like you're not going to raise
money you can't start a company like
what business do you have like starting
a company or running a company or
selling a company like you name it
that's always like and
and I think my biggest advice to not
just women but people who have
who are Taking A New Path and you know
they're not sure
is to not let yourself and let your
thoughts be the biggest obstacle in your
way
and I've had to like really
work on myself
to not be my own biggest obstacle so you
got that negative voice yeah
um so is that am I the only one I don't
think I'm the only one no I have that
negative voice I'm not exactly sure
if it's a bad thing or a good thing I've
been really
torn about it because it's been a
lifelong companion it's hard to know
it's kind of um
it drives productivity and progress but
it can hold you back from taking big
leaps
I think you I the best I can say
is probably you have to somehow
be able to control it so turn it off
when it's not useful and turn it on when
it's useful
like I have from almost like a third
person perspective right somebody
somebody yeah like because it is useful
to uh to be critical
like after
um
again I just gave a talk yesterday
uh at MIT and I was just you know
there's so much love and it was such an
incredible experience so many amazing
people I got a chance to talk to but you
know afterwards when I when I went home
and just took this long walk it was
mostly just negative thoughts about me I
don't like I one basic stuff like I I
don't deserve any of it and second is
like
like why did you that was so dumb that
you said this that's so dumb like you
got you should have prepared that better
why did you say this
but I think it's good to hear that voice
out all right and like sit in that and
ultimately I think you grow from that
now when you're making really big
decisions about funding or starting a
company or taking a leap to go to the UK
or take a leave to go to America to to
work a media lab though yeah there's a
that's uh
you should be able to shut that off then
because
uh you should have like this weird
confidence almost like faith that you
said before that everything's gonna work
out so take the leap of faith take the
leap of faith despite all all the
negativity I mean there's there's some
of that you you actually tweeted a
really nice
uh tweet thread uh it says quote a year
ago a friend recommended I do Daily
Affirmations
and I was skeptical but I was going
through major transitions in my life so
I'd give it a shot and it set me on a
journey of self-acceptance and self-love
so what was that like you may maybe talk
through this idea of affirmations and
how that helped you yeah because really
like I'm just like
myself as a kind person in general but
I'm kind of mean to myself sometimes
yeah and so
um I've been doing journaling for almost
10 years now
um I used an app called day one and it's
awesome I just journal and I use it as
an opportunity to almost have a
conversation with the Debbie Downer
voice in my it's like a rebuttal right
like Debbie Downer says oh my God like
you you know you won't be able to raise
this round of funny I'm like okay let's
talk about it
record of device
it's literally like so I wouldn't I
don't know that I can shut off the voice
but I can have a conversation with it
and it just it just um and I bring data
to the table right
nice so so that was the journaling part
which I found very helpful but the
affirmation took it to a whole Next
Level and I I just love it I I'm I I'm a
year into doing this and you literally
wake up in the morning and the first
thing you do
I meditate first
um and then and then I write my
affirmations and it's it's the energy I
want to put out in the world that
hopefully will come right back to me so
I will say I always start with my smile
lights up the whole world
and I kid you not like people in the
street will stop me and say oh my God
like we love your smile yeah
[Laughter]
so so my affirmations will change
depending on you know what's happening
this day is it funny I know don't judge
don't judge no that's not what laughter
is not judgment it's just awesome I mean
it uh it's true but you're saying
affirmation somehow hope
kind of uh what is it they do work to
like remind you right of the kind of
person you are and the kind of person
you want to be which
actually maybe in verse order the kind
of person you want to be and that helps
you become the kind of person you
actually are that's
I think it's intentionality to like
what you're doing right and so by the
way I was laughing because my
affirmations which I also do are the
opposite oh you do oh I don't have a my
smile lights up
maybe I should add that because like I I
have I just I have every oh my boy I
just it's uh it's much more stoic like
about focused about this that's kind of
okay but the joy the emotion that you're
just in that little affirmation is
beautiful so maybe I should add that
yeah I have some like focused stuff yeah
but that's usually but that's a cool
start it's just after all they're like
smiling you're inspiring playful and
joyful and all that and then it's like
okay I kick butt let's get shit done all
right let's get shit done that for me
okay cool so uh like what else is on
there
oh what else is on there
um well
I I have I'm als I'm I'm a magnet for
all sorts of things so I'm an amazing
people magnet I attract like awesome
people into my universe
uh so that's an actual affirmation yes
that's great yeah so that that's and
then yeah and that somehow manifests
itself into like working I think I think
so
yeah like can you speak to like why it
feels good to do the affirmations
grounds the day
and then it allows me to instead of just
like being pulled back and forth like
throughout the day it just like grounds
me I'm like okay like this thing
happened it's not exactly what I wanted
it to be but I'm patient or I'm you know
I'm
I trust that the universe will do
amazing things for me which is one of my
other consistent affirmations or I'm an
amazing Mom right and so I can grapple
with all the feelings of mom guilt that
I have all the time
um or here's another one I'm a love
magnet and I literally say I will kind
of picture the person that I'd love to
end up with and I write it all down and
hasn't happened yet but what do you what
are you picturing because of Brad Pitt
Brad Pitt because that's what I picture
okay that's what you picture yeah okay
running holding hands running together
um no more like Fight Club that uh The
Fight Club Brad Pitt where he's like
staying all right people will know okay
anyway I'm sorry I'll get off on that do
you have uh like when you're thinking
about the being a love magnet in that
way are you picturing specific people or
is this almost like um
in the space of like energy
right it's somebody who
um is smart and well accomplished and
successful in their life but they're
generous and they're well traveled and
they want to travel the world things
like that like their head over heels
into me is like I know it sounds super
silly but it's literally what I write
yeah and I believe it'll happen one day
oh you actually write so you don't say
it out loud no I write it I write all my
affirmations
yeah if I'm alone I'll say it out loud
yeah
I said try that huh it I think it's
which
what feels more powerful to you to me
more powerful
saying stuff feels more powerful yeah
yeah writing is
um
writing feels like I'm losing
losing the words like losing the power
of the words maybe because I write slow
do you hand write no I I type it's on
this app it's day one basically and I
just I can look the best thing about it
is I can look back yeah and see like a
year ago what was I affirming right so
it also changes over time it
hasn't like changed a lot but it but the
focus kind of changes over time I got it
yeah I see the same exact thing over and
over and over oh you do okay there's a
comfort in the in the sameness of it
uh well actually let me jump around
because let me ask you about because we
talked all this talk about Brad Pitt or
maybe what's going on inside my head
um let me ask you about dating in
general
um
you tweeted are you based in Boston in
single question mark and then you
pointed to a startup singles night
sponsored by smile dating app because I
mean this is jumping around a little bit
because since you mentioned
um
can AI help solve this uh dating love
problem what do you think this problem
of connection
that is part of the human condition can
AI help that you yourself are in the
search affirming maybe that's what I
should affirm like build an AI build an
AI that finds love
I think
I think there must be a science behind
that first moment you meet a person and
you either have chemistry or you don't
right like you I guess that was the
question I was asking would you put a
brilliantly is that a science or an art
oh I think there are like there's actual
chemicals that get exchanged when people
two people meet oh I don't know about
that
but okay I like how you're changing yeah
yeah changing your mind as we're
describing it but it feels that way
right but it's what science shows us is
sometimes we can explain with the rigor
the things that feel like magic right
right so maybe you can remove all the
magic maybe it's like I honestly think
like I said that Goodreads should be a
dating app which like books I I wonder I
wonder if you look at just like books or
content you've consumed I mean that's
essentially what YouTube does when it
does recommend a recommendation if you
just look at your footprint of content
consumed if there's an overlap but maybe
interesting difference with an overlap
that some I'm sure this is a machine
learning problem that's solvable
like this person is very likely to be
not only there to be chemistry in the
short term but a good lifelong partner
to grow together I bet you it's a good
machine learning problem we just need
the data let's do it well
two of us that they're ought to be ought
to be learning algorithm that can ingest
all this data and basically say I think
the following 10 people would be
interesting connections for you right
um and and so smile dating app kind of
took one particular angle which is humor
it matches People based on their humor
Styles which is one of the main
ingredients of a successful relationship
like if you meet somebody and they can
make you laugh like that's a good thing
and if you develop like internal jokes
like inside jokes and you're bantering
like that's fun yeah so I think yeah
yeah definitely definitely but yeah
that's the uh
the number of and the rate of inside
joke generation
you could probably measure that and then
optimize it over the first few days
right and then we're just turning this
into a machine learning problem I love
it
uh but for somebody like you who's
exceptionally successful and busy
um
is there
is there science to that aspect of
dating is it tricky is there advice you
can give oh my God I'd give the worst
advice well I can tell you like I have a
spreadsheet I'm stretchy that's great is
that a good or a bad thing do you regret
the spreadsheet uh well I don't know
what's the name of this spreadshe Is It
Love
the date track dating tracker it's very
like love tracker yeah and there's a
rating system I'm sure yeah there's like
weights and stuff and it's too close to
home oh is it do you also well I don't
have a spreadsheet but I would now that
you say it it seems like a good idea oh
no
uh turning into Data
um yeah I do wish that somebody else had
a spreadsheet about me hmm if you know
if it was a cut like like I said like
you said uh convert collect a lot of
data about us in a way that's privacy
preserving that I own the data I can
control it and then use that data to
find not I mean not just romantic love
but uh collaborators friends all that
kind of stuff it seems like the data is
there right uh the that's the problem
social networks are trying to solve but
I think they're doing a really poor job
even Facebook tried to get into a dating
app uh business and I think there's so
many components to running a successful
the company that connects human beings
and part of that is
you know uh having Engineers they care
about the human side right as you know
extremely well it's not it's not easy to
find those but but you don't also don't
want just people that care about the
human they also have to be good
Engineers so it's like you have to find
this this beautiful mix and for some
reason just empirically speaking
it's it people who have not done a good
job of that of building companies like
that and it must mean that it's a
difficult problem to solve dating apps
it seems difficult Okay Cupid tender all
those kind of stuff
they seem
to find of course they work but they
seem
to not work as well as I would imagine
it's possible like right with data
wouldn't you be able to find better
human connection it's like arrange
marriages on steroids right right
arranged by Machine learning algorithms
arranged by Machine learning algorithm
but but not a superficial one I think a
lot of the dating apps out there are
just so superficial they're just
matching on like high level criteria
that aren't ingredients for successful
partnership
but you know what's missing though too I
don't know how to fix that the
Serendipity piece of it like how do you
engineer Serendipity like this random
like chance encounter and then you fall
in love with the person like I don't
know how a dating app can can do that so
it has to be a little bit of Randomness
Maybe
every 10th match is just a you know
yeah somebody that the algorithm
wouldn't have necessarily recommended
but it's it allows for a little bit of
well it can also you know it can also
trick you into thinking it sounded to be
by like somehow showing you a tweet of a
person
that he thinks you'll match well with
but do it accidentally as part of
another search right and like you just
notice it like and then you get it you
go down a rabbit hole and you connect
them in outside the app to like so you
connect with this person outside the
house somehow so it's just it creates
that moment of meeting
um of course you have to think of from
an app perspective how you can turn that
into a business but I think ultimately a
business that helps people find love in
any way like that's what Apple was about
create products that people love right
that's beautiful I mean that's you got
to make money somehow right if you help
people fall in love
personally with the product find
self-love or another human being you're
gonna make money yeah you're gonna
figure out a way to make money
um I just feel like the dating apps
often will optimize
for something else than love it's a
single social networks they optimize for
engagement right as opposed to like a
deep meaningful connection
um that's ultimately ground in like
personal growth you as a human being
growing and all that kind of stuff
um let me do like a pivot to a dark
topic which you open the book with
um yeah a story
because I'd like to talk to you about
just
emotion and artificial intelligence that
I think this is a good story to start to
think about emotional intelligence
uh you open the book with a story of a
central Florida man Jamal Dunn who was
drowning and drowned while five
teenagers watched and laughed saying
things like you're gonna die and when
Jamel disappeared below the surface of
the water one of them said he just died
and the others laughed what is this
incident uh teach you about human nature
and the response to it perhaps yeah I
mean I think this is a really
really really sad story and it and it
and it highlights what I believe is a
it's a real problem in our world today
it's it's an empathy Christ
yeah we're living through an empathy
crisis and crisis yeah yeah and
and I mean we've we've talked about this
throughout our conversation we
dehumanized each other and unfortunately
yes technology is bringing us together
but in a way it's just dehumanized it's
creating this like
yeah dehumanizing of the other and I
think that's a huge problem
the good news is I think solution the
solution could be Technology based like
I think if we rethink the way we design
and deploy our Technologies we can solve
parts of this problem but I worry about
it I mean even with my son
a lot of his interactions are
computer mediated
and I just questioned what that's doing
to his empathy skills and you know his
ability to really connect with people so
do you think
you think it's not possible to form
empathy through the digital medium
I think it is
we have to be thoughtful about because
the way the way we engage face to face
which is what we're doing right now
right there's the the non-verbal signals
which are a majority of how we
communicate it's like 90 of how we
communicate is your facial expressions
you know I'm saying something and you're
nodding your head now and that creates a
feedback loop and and if you break that
and now I have anxiety about it
relax
oh boy I am just recognizing your facial
expressions during this interview all
right okay
look normal look human yeah
nod head yeah not head
in agreement if Rana says yes yeah then
not head else don't do it too much
because it might be at the wrong time
and then it'll send the wrong signal oh
God and uh make eye contact sometimes
because humans appreciate that all right
anyway okay
uh yeah but something about the
especially when you say mean things in
person you get to see the pain of the
other person but if you're tweeting it
at a person and you have no idea how
it's gonna land you're more likely to do
that on social media than you are in
face-to-face conversations so
um I mean what do you think is more
important
EQ or IQ EQ being emotional intelligence
in terms of uh in what makes us human
I think emotional intelligence is what
makes us human it's it it's how we
connect with one another it's how we
build trust it's how
we make decisions right like your
emotions
Drive
kind of what you had for breakfast but
also where you decide to live and what
you want to do for the rest of your life
so
I think emotions are underrated
um but so emotional intelligence isn't
just about
the effective expression of your own
emotions it's about a sensitivity and
empathy to other people's emotions and
that sort of being able to effectively
engage in the dance of emotions with
other people
I like that
thinking about it as a dance because it
is really about that it's about sensing
what state the other person's in and
using that information to decide on how
you're going to react
um
and I think it can be very powerful like
people who are the best most persuaded
most persuasive leaders in the world tap
into
you know they have if you have higher EQ
you're more likely to be able to
motivate people to change their
behaviors
so um
so it can be very powerful at a more
kind of technical maybe philosophical
level
you've written that emotion is universal
it seems that
sort of like Chomsky says language is
universal there's a bunch of other stuff
like cognition Consciousness seems a lot
of us have these aspects so the human
mind generates all this and so what do
you think is the
they all seem to be like Echoes of the
same thing
uh what do you think emotion is exactly
like how deep does it run is it a
surface level thing that we display to
each other is it just another form of
language or something deep within
I think it's it's really deep it's how
you know we started with memory I think
emotions play a really important
yeah the emotions play a very important
role in how we encode memories right our
our memories are often encoded almost
indexed by emotions yeah
um
yeah it it said this core of how you
know our decision-making engine is also
heavily influenced by our emotions so
emotions is part of cognition it's
totally it's intermixed into the whole
thing yes absolutely and in fact when
you take it away people are unable to
make decisions they're really paralyzed
like they can't go about their daily or
their you know personal or professional
lives so
um it does seem like there's probably
some interesting
interweaving of emotion and
Consciousness I wonder if it's possible
to have like if they're next door
neighbor somehow or if they're actually
uh flatmates
I don't I don't
it feels like the the hard problem of
Consciousness where it's some it feels
like something to experience the thing
like red feels like red and it's you
know when you eat a mango sweet The
Taste the the the the sweetness that it
feels like something to experience that
sweetness
that whatever generates emotions
but then like I feel like emotion is
part of communication it's very much
about communication and then
that means it's also deeply connected to
language
but then probably
human intelligence is deeply connected
to the collective intelligence between
humans it's not just a standalone thing
so the whole thing is really connected
so emotions connected to language
language is connected to intelligence
and then intelligence connect to
Consciousness and Consciousness is
collect connected to emotion the whole
thing is that the is a beautiful mess so
uh
um can I comment on the emotions being a
communication mechanic because I think
there are two facets of
of of our emotional experiences
um one is communication right like we
use emotions
for example facial expressions or other
nonverbal cues to connect with other
human beings and with other
beings in the world right
um
but even if it's not a communication
context we still experience emotions and
we still process emotions and we still
leverage emotions to make decisions and
to learn and you know to experience life
so
it isn't always just about communication
and we learned that very early on in our
in kind of our work at affectiva one of
the very first applications we brought
to Market was understanding how people
respond to content right so if they're
watching this video of ours like are
they interested are they inspired are
they bored to death and so we watch
their facial expressions
and we had we weren't sure if people
would express any emotions if they were
sitting alone like if you're in your bed
at night
watching a Netflix TV series would we
still see any emotions on your face and
we were surprised that yes people still
emote even if they're alone even if
you're in your car driving around you're
singing along a song and you're joyful
we'll see these Expressions so it's not
just about communicating with another
person it sometimes really isn't just
about experiencing the world and first
of all I wonder if some of that is
because we develop our intelligence and
our emotional intelligence by
communicating with other humans and so
when other humans disappear from the
picture was still kind of a virtual
human the code still runs basically yeah
the code still runs and but you also
kind of you're still there's like
virtual humans you don't have to think
of it that way but there's a kind of
when you like chocolate
yeah like you're you're kind of
chuckling to a virtual human I mean it's
possible that the the code is the has to
have another human uh
there because if you just grow up alone
I wonder if emotion will still be there
in this visual form so I yeah I I wonder
but anyway the uh what can you tell
from the human face about what's going
on inside so that's the problem that
affectiva first tackled which is using
computer vision using machine learning
to try to detect stuff about the human
face as many things as possible and
convert them into a prediction of
categories of emotion anger happiness
all that kind of stuff how hard is that
problem
extremely hard it's very very hard
because there is no one-to-one mapping
between
a facial expression and your internal
State there just isn't there's this
oversimplification of the problem where
it's something like if you are smiling
then you're happy if you do a brow
Furrow then you're angry if you do an
eyebrow race then you're surprised and
just think about it for a moment you
could be smiling for a whole host of
reasons you could also be happy and not
be smiling right
um you could follow your eyebrows
because you're angry or you're confused
about something or you're constipated
yeah
um so I think this over simplistic
approach to inferring emotion from a
facial expression is really dangerous
the solution
is to incorporate as many contextual
signals as you can right so if for
example I'm driving a car and you can
see me like nodding my head and my eyes
are closed and the blinking grade is
changing I'm probably falling asleep on
at the wheel right it doesn't because
you know the context you understand what
the person is doing
so I think or add additional channels
like voice or gestures or even
physiological sensors
um but I think it's very dangerous to
just take this over simplistic approach
of yeah smile equals happy and if you're
able to in a high resolution way specify
the context there's certain things that
are going to be somewhat reliable
signals of something like drowsiness or
happiness or stuff like that I mean when
when people are watching Netflix that
problem
that's a really compelling idea that you
can kind of at least in aggregate
exactly highlight like which part was
boring which part was exciting how hard
was that problem
um that was on the scale of like
difficulty I think that's some of one of
the easier problems to solve because
it's um
um a relatively constrained environment
you have somebody sitting in front of
initially we started with like a device
in front of you like a laptop and then
we graduated to doing this on a mobile
phone which is a lot harder just because
of you know from a computer vision
perspective
profile view of the face can be a lot
more challenging we had to figure out
lighting conditions because usually
people are watching content
literally in their bedrooms at night
lights are dimmed
um yes I mean if you're standing it's
probably going to be the uh looking up
the nostril view yeah and nobody looks
good at I've seen data sets from that
perspective it's like this is not a good
look for anyone uh or if you're laying
in bed at night what is it side view or
something right it's and you have your
faces like on a pillow actually I don't
I would love to know have data
about uh like how people watch stuff in
bed at night
like do they prop their is it a pillow
the like I'm sure there's a lot of
interesting Dynamics right
from a health and well-being perspective
right like it's like oh you're already
machine learning perspective but yes but
also yeah yeah
um yeah once you have that data you can
start making all kinds of inference
about health and stuff like that
interesting yeah there's a interesting
thing when I was at Google that we were
um
it's it's called active authentication
where you you want to be able to
unlock your phone without using a
password so it would it would face but
also other stuff like the way you take a
phone out of the pocket amazing so that
kind of data to use the multimodal uh
with machine learning to be able to
identify that it's you or likely to be
you likely not to be you that allows you
to not always have to enter the password
that was the the idea but the funny
thing about that is I just want to tell
a small anecdote is
because it was all male engineers
uh except so there's my boss is uh uh
our boss who's still one of my favorite
humans was was a woman uh Regina Dugan
um oh my God I love her she's awesome
she's the best
um
so uh but anyway there was a there's one
female engine uh a brilliant female
engineer on the team and she was the one
that actually highlighted the fact that
um women often don't have pockets
it was like well that was not even a
category in the code of like wait a
minute you can take the phone out of
some other place than your pocket so
anyway that's a it's a funny thing when
you're concerning people laying in bed
watching a phone you have to consider if
there you have to the you know uh
diversity in all its forms depending on
the problem depending on the context
yeah actually this is like a very
important I think this is you know you
probably get this all the time like
people are worried that ai's going to
take over humanity and like get rid of
all the humans in the world I'm like
actually that's not my biggest concern
my biggest concern is that we are
building bias into these systems and
then they're like deployed at large and
at scale
and before you know it you're kind of
accentuating the bias that exists in
society and
yeah I'm not you know I know people it's
very important to worry about that but I
it the worry is an emergent phenomena to
me which is a very good one because I
think these systems are actually
by encoding the data that exists they're
revealing the bias that in society
they're for teaching us what the bias is
therefore we can now improve that bias
within the system so they're almost like
putting a mirror to ourselves I I so I'm
not we have to be open to looking at the
mirror though you have to be right open
to scrutinizing the data if you just
take it as
a ground or you don't even have to look
at the I mean yes the data is how you
fix it but then you just look at the
behavior of the system it's like and you
realize holy crap this thing is kind of
racist right like why is that and then
you look at the days like okay and then
you start to realize that I think that's
a much more effective way to uh to be
introspective as a society than through
sort of political discourse like AI kind
of right uh
um because people are easy people are
for some reason more
productive and rigorous in criticizing
AI then they're criticizing each other
so I think this is just a nice method
for studying society and see which way
progress lies anyway what we're talking
about you're watching the problem of
watching Netflix in bed or elsewhere and
seeing which parts are exciting which
parts are boring you're saying that's
relatively constrained because you know
you have a captive audience and you kind
of know the context and one thing you
said that was really key is the accurate
you're doing this in aggregate right
like we're looking at aggregated
response of people and so when you see a
peak yeah say a smile Peak they're
probably smiling or laughing at
something that's in the content
um so that was one of the first problems
we were able to solve and and when we
see the smile Peak it doesn't mean that
these people are internally happy
they're just laughing at content so it's
important to you know call it for what
it is
um but still really really useful data I
wonder how that compares to so what like
YouTube and other places will use
is obviously they don't uh have in for
the most case they don't have that kind
of data but they have the data of when
people
um tune out drop off and I think that's
a at in aggregate for you to release a
pretty powerful signal I worry about
what that leads to
because
um
looking at uh like YouTubers that are
kind of really care about views and you
know try to maximize the number of views
I think they when they say that the
video should be constantly interesting
which seems like a good goal
I feel like that leads to this manic
pace
of a video
like the idea that I would speak at the
current speed that I'm speaking I don't
know
um and that every moment has to be
engaging right engaging but yeah I think
there's value to silence there's value
to the boring bits I mean all some of
the greatest movies ever some of the
greatest stories ever told me that
boring bits
seemingly boring bits I don't know I I
wonder about that of course it's not
that your the human face can capture
that either it's just giving an extra
signal you have to I have to really
I don't know you have to really collect
deeper long-term data about what was
meaningful to people when they think 30
days from now what they still remember
what moved them what changed them what
helped them grow that kind of stuff you
know it would be a really I don't know
if there are any researchers out there
who are doing this type of work wouldn't
it be so cool to tie
your emotional Expressions while you're
say listening to a to a podcast
interview and then go you know and then
30 days later interview people and say
hey what do you remember you've watched
this 30 days ago like what stuck with
you and then see if there's any there
ought to be maybe there ought to be some
correlation between these emotional
experiences
and and yeah what you
stays with you huh uh so the the one guy
listening now on the beach in Brazil
please record a video of yourself
listening to this and send it to me and
then I'll interview you 30 days from now
it will be statistically significant
and a one but you know
um yeah yeah I I think that's really
fascinating I think that's um
that kind of holds the key to uh
to to a future where entertainment
or content is both entertaining and uh
I don't know
um
makes you better empowering in some way
so figuring out like
showing people stuff that entertains
them but also they're happy they watched
30 days from now because they've become
a better person because of it well you
know okay not to Riff on this topic for
too long but I have two children right
and I see my role as a parent as like
the chief opportunity officer like I am
responsible for exposing them to all
sorts of things in the world and
but often I have no idea of knowing like
what stuck like what was you know is
this actually going to be transformative
you know for them 10 years down the line
and and I wish there was a way to
quantify these experiences like are they
I can tell in in the moment if they're
engaging right I can tell
but it's really hard to know if they're
going to remember them 10 years from now
or if it's going to
yeah that one is weird because it seems
like kids remember the weirdest things
I've seen parents do incredible stuff
for their kids and they don't remember
any of that they remember some tiny
small sweet thing a parent did right
like some it took you to like this
amazing country
whatever and then there'll be like some
like stuffed toy you got or some or the
new PlayStation or something or some
some silly little thing so I I think
they they just like that we're designed
that way they want to mess with your
head
but definitely kids are very impacted by
it seems like sort of negative events so
minimizing the number of negative events
is important but not too much right you
can't you can't just like uh you know
they're still discipline and Challenge
and all those kinds of things so some
adversity for sure so yeah I mean I'm
definitely when I have kids I'm gonna
drive them out into the woods okay and
then they have to survive and make
figure out how to make their way back
home like 20 miles out okay
okay yeah and after that we can go for
ice cream anyway
um I'm working on this whole parenting
thing I haven't figured it out okay uh
what were we talking about yes effectiva
the the the problem of emotion
of emotion detection so there's some
people maybe we can just speak to that a
little more where there's folks like uh
Lisa Felman Barrett that that challenge
this idea that emotion could be fully
detected or even
um well detected from the human face so
that there's so much more to emotion
what do you think about uh ideas like
hers criticism like hers yeah I actually
agree with a lot of Lisa's
um criticism so even even my PhD worked
like 20 plus years ago now
um time flies when you're having fun I
know right that was back when I did like
Dynamic Bayesian networks and I mostly
that's before deep learning that was
before deep learning yeah
yeah I know my day now you can just like
use yeah yeah it's it's all it's all all
the same architecture you can apply it
to anything yeah right
um but yeah but but even then I kind of
I I did not subscribe to this like
theory of basic emotions where it's just
the simplistic mapping one-to-one
mapping between facial expressions
emotions I actually think also we're not
in in the business of trying to identify
your true emotional internal State we
just want to quantify in an objective
way what's showing on your face because
that's an important signal it doesn't
mean it's a true reflection of your
internal emotional state
um so I think a lot of the you know I
think she's she's just trying to kind of
highlight that this is not a simple
problem and
overly simplistic Solutions are going to
hurt the industry
um and and I subscribe to that and I
think multimodal is the way to go like
whether it's additional contacts
information or different modalities and
channels of information I think that's
what we
um that's where we ought to go and I
think I mean that's a big part of what
she's advocating for as well so but
there's signal in the human face that's
there's definitely signal that's a
projection of emotion there's that that
there at least in part
is uh the interstate is captured in some
meaningful way on the human face
I think it
it
um an expression of your internal state
but sometimes it's a social signal so
this so you cannot look at the face as
purely a signal of emotion it can be a
signal of cognition and it can be a
signal of a a social expression and I
think to disambiguate that we have to be
careful about it and we have to add
initial information
humans are fascinating aren't they with
the whole face thing this can mean so
many things
um from humor to sarcasm to everything
the whole thing some things we can help
some things we can't help at all
in all the years of leading effectiva
and emotional recognition company like
we talked about what have you learned
about emotion about humans and
about AI
oh
big big sweeping questions yeah that's a
big sweeping question well
I think the thing I learned the most is
that even though like we are in the
business of of
building
AI basically right
it always goes back to the humans right
it's always about the humans
um
and so for example the thing I'm most
proud of
in in building affectiva and
yeah the most the thing I'm most proud
of on this journey
I love the technology and I'm so proud
of the solutions we've built and we've
brought to Market but I'm actually most
proud of the people we've like built and
cultivated at the company and the
culture we've created
um you know some some of the people
who've joined affectiva this was their
first job and while at affectiva they
became American citizens and they bought
their first house and they found their
partner and they had their first kid
right like key moments in life that we
got to be part of
and that's the thing I'm most proud of
so that's that's a great thing at a
company that works on them
right me like celebrating Humanity in
general broadly speaking yes and that's
a great thing to have in a company that
works on AI because that's not often the
thing that's celebrated in AI company so
often just raw great engineering
um just celebrating the humanity that's
great and especially from a leadership
position
um
well
what do you think about the movie Her
let me ask you that before I talk before
I talk to you about because it's not
effectiva is and was not just about
emotion so I'd love to talk to you about
smart eye but before that let me just
jump into
um the movie
uh her do you think we'll have a deep
meaningful connection with
increasingly deep and meaningful
connections with computers is that a
compelling thing to you something I
think that's already happening the thing
I love them I love the movie Her by the
way but the thing I love the most about
this movie is it demonstrates how
technology can be a conduit for positive
behavior change so I forgot the guy's
name in the movie
um whatever Theodore Theodore
so Theodore was like really depressed
right and he just didn't want to get out
of bed and he just just like done with
with life right and Samantha right
Samantha yeah she just knew him so well
she had she was emotionally intelligent
and so she could persuade him and
motivated him to change his behavior and
she got a man and they went to the beach
together
and I think that represents the promise
of emotion AI if done well
this technology can help us live happier
lives more productive lives healthier
lives more connected lives
so that's the part that I love about the
movie obviously it's Hollywood so it
takes a Twist and whatever but but the
but the key notion that technology with
emotion AI can persuade you to be a
better version of who you are I think
that's awesome
well what about the twists you don't
think you don't think it's good for
spoiler alert that Samantha starts
feeling a bit of a distance and
basically leaves
Theodore
um you don't think that's a good feature
that's a that you think that's a bugger
feature
well I think what went wrong is Theodore
became really attached to Samantha like
I think he kind of fell in love with us
do you think that's wrong
I mean I think that I think she was
putting out the signal this is an
intimate relationship right there's a
deep intimacy to it right but what does
what does what does that mean what does
that mean AI system right what does that
mean right I'm just friends
yeah
well I think when he realized which is
such a human thing of jealousy when you
really like this was talking to like
thousands of people she's parallel
dating yeah that did not go well right
uh you know that doesn't and from a
computer perspective like that doesn't
take anything away from what we have
it's like you getting jealous of Windows
98 for being used by millions of people
but it's like it's like not liking that
Alexa yeah right it's a bunch of you
know other families but I think Alexa
currently is just a servant it it tells
you about the weather it's not it
doesn't do the intimate deep connection
and I think there is something really
powerful about
that the intimacy of a connection with
an AI system that would have to respect
and play the human game of of jealousy
of Love of uh heartbreak and all that
kind of stuff which the matter does seem
to be pretty good at
I think
she this AI systems knows what it's
doing
I don't think she was talking to anyone
else you don't think so you think she
was just done with Theodore yeah oh she
knew that yeah and then and she she
wanted to really want to move on she
didn't have the guts to just break it
off cleanly okay
she just wanted to put it no I don't
know well she could have ghosted him she
could have gone
I'm sorry there's our Engineers oh God
uh but I think those are really I I
honestly think some of that some of it
is Hollywood but some of that is
featured from an engineering perspective
not not a bug I think I think AI systems
that can leave us now this is for more
social robotics than it is for anything
that's useful like I I hated if
Wikipedia said you know I need a break
right now right right right right like
no no I need you
um but if if it's just purely uh
for for um companionship then I think
the ability to leave is really powerful
I don't know that I never thought of
that so
so
because I've always taken the human
perspective right
um
like for example we had a gebo at home
right and my son loved it
and then the company ran out of money
and so they had to basically shut down G
like Jibo basically died right and it
was so interesting to me because we have
a lot of gadgets at home and a lot of
them break and my son never cares about
it right like if our Alexa stopped
working tomorrow I don't think he'd
really care but when Jibo stopped
working it was traumatically he got
really upset
and as a parent that like made me think
about this deeply right did I was I
comfortable with that I I liked the
connection they had because I think it
was a positive relationship
but I was surprised that it affected him
emotionally so much and I think there's
a broader question here right as we
build
socially and emotionally intelligent
machines what does that mean about our
relationship with them and then more
broadly our relationship with one
another right because this machine is
going to be programmed to be amazing at
empathy by definition right
it's going to always be there for you
it's not going to get bored
in fact there's a chat bot in China
and it's like the number two or three
most popular app and it basically is
just a confidant and you can tell it
anything you want
and people use it for all sorts of
things they confide
in like
um
domestic violence or suicidal attempts
or you know if they have challenges at
work I don't know what that I don't know
if I'm com I don't know how I feel about
that I think about that a lot yeah I
think first of all obviously the future
in my perspective uh second of all I
think there's a lot of trajectories that
that becomes an exciting future but I
think everyone should feel very
uncomfortable about how much they know
about the company
about where the data is going how the
data is being collected because I think
and this is one of the lessons of social
media
that I think we should demand full
control and transparency of the data on
those things plus one totally agree yeah
so like I I think it's really empowering
as long as you can walk away as long as
you can like delete the data or know how
the date it's a opt-in or or at least
the clarity of like what is being used
for the company and I think it's CEO or
like leaders are also important about
that like you need to be able to trust
the basic Humanity of the leader exactly
and also that that leader is not going
to be a puppet of a larger machine but
they actually have a significant role in
defining the culture uh and the way the
company operates so anyway so but
we should be we should definitely
scrutinize companies in that aspect but
it just
I'm personally excited about that future
but also even if you're not it's coming
so let's figure out how to do it in the
least painful yeah and the most positive
moment that's great
you're the deputy CEO of Smart Eye can
you describe the mission of the company
what a Smart Eye yeah so smart eye is a
Swedish company they've been in business
for the last 20 years and other their
main focus like the industry they're
most focused on is the automotive
industry so bringing driver monitoring
systems uh
to basically save lives right
so I first met the CEO Martin Krantz
um gosh it was right when covet hit it
was actually the sea the last C the last
Cas right before covet so CS 2020 right
2020 yeah January yeah January exactly
so we were there met him in person he's
basically we were competing with each
other
um
I think the difference was they'd been
doing driver monitoring and had a lot of
credibility in the automotive space we
didn't come from the automotive space
but we were using new technology like
deep learning and building this emotion
recognition and you wanted to enter the
automotive space you wanted to operate
in automotive space exactly it was one
of the areas we were we had just raised
a round of funding to focus on bringing
our technology to the automotive
industry so we met and honestly it was
the first it was the only time I met
with a CEO who had the same vision as I
did like he basically said yeah our
vision is to bridge the gap between
humans and machines I was like oh my God
this is like exactly almost to the to
the word you know how we describe it too
and we started talking and first it was
about okay can we align strategically
here like how can we work together
because we're competing but we're also
like complementary and then
I think after four months of speaking
almost every day on FaceTime yeah he was
like
is your company interested in an
acquisition and it was the first I
usually say no when people approach us
um
it was the first time that I was like
huh yeah I might be interested let's
talk yeah
um so you just hit it off yeah so
they're they're a respected uh very
respective in the automotive sector of
of like delivering products and
increasingly sort of better and better
and better uh for I mean maybe you could
speak to that but it's the driver's
testing for basically having a device
that's looking at the driver and it's
able to tell you where the driver is
looking
correct it's able or also drowsiness
stuff correct it does stuff from the
face and the eye exactly like it's
monitoring driver distraction and
drowsiness but they bought us so that we
could expand Beyond just the driver so
the driver monitoring systems usually
sit the camera sits in the steering
wheel or around the steering wheel
column and it looks directly at the
driver
but now we've migrated the camera
position in partnership with car
companies to the rear view mirror
position so it has a full view of the
entire cabin of the car and you can
detect how many people are in the car
what are they doing so we do activity
detection like eating or drinking or in
some regions of the world smoking we can
detect if a baby's in the car seat right
and if unfortunately in some cases
they're forgotten the parents just leave
the car and forget the kid in the car
that's an easy computer vision problem
to solve right you can detect there's a
car seat there's a baby you can text the
parent and hopefully again save lives so
so that was the impetus for the
acquisition
it's been a year
um so that I mean there's a lot of a lot
of questions really exciting space
especially to me I just find this a
fascinating problem it could could
enrich the experience in the car in so
many ways especially because like we
spend still despite covet I mean Kobe
changed things so it's in interesting
ways but I think the world is bouncing
back and we spend so much time in the
car and the car is such a
weird
little world we have for ourselves like
people do all kinds of different stuff
like listen to podcasts they they think
about stuff they they get angry they get
um they do phone calls they're so it's
like a little world of its own with a
kind of privacy
that uh for many people they don't get
anywhere else uh it's and it's it's a
little box that's like a psychology
experiment because it feels like the
angriest many humans in this world get
is inside the car it's so interesting so
it's such an opportunity to explore
how we can enrich
um how how companies can enrich that
experience and also as the cars get
become more and more automated there's
more and more opportunity the variety of
activities that you can do in the car
increases so it's super interesting so
um I mean on a practical sense
Smart Eye has been selected at least I
read by 14 of the world's leading car
manufacturers for 94 car models so it's
in a lot of cars
how hard is it to work with car
companies so they're all different they
all have different needs the ones I've
gotten the chance to interact with are
very focused on cost
so
um it's and anyone who's focused on
costs it's like all right do you hate
fun
let's just have some fun let's figure
out the most fun thing we can do and
then worry about costs later but I think
because the way the car industry works I
mean it's it's a very thin margin that
you get to operate under so you have to
really really make sure that everything
you add to the car makes sense
financially so anyways there is is this
new industry especially at this scale of
Smart Eye does it hold any lessons for
you yeah I think it is a very tough
Market to to penetrate but once you're
in it's awesome because once you're in
you're designed into these car models
for like somewhere between five to seven
years which is awesome and you just once
they're on the road you just get paid a
royalty fee per vehicle so it's a high
barrier to entry but once you're in it's
amazing
I think the thing that I struggle the
most with in in this industry is the
time to Market so often we're asked to
lock or do a code freeze two years
before the car is going to be on the
road I'm like guys like do you
understand the pace with which
technology moves so I think car
companies are really trying to make the
Tesla
the Tesla transitioned to become more of
a software-driven
architecture and that's hard for many
it's just the cultural change I mean I'm
sure you've experienced that right oh
definitely I think one of the biggest
inventions or imperatives created by
Tesla is
like to me personally okay people are
going to complain about this but I know
electric vehicle I know autopilot AI
stuff to me the software over there
software updates is like the biggest
revolution in cars and it is extremely
difficult to switch to that because it
is a culture shift
it uh at first especially if you're not
comfortable with it it seems dangerous
like there's a there's an approach to
cars it's so safety focused for so many
decades that like what do you mean we
dynamically change code the whole point
is you have a thing that you test like
right
and like it's not reliable because you
know how much it costs if we have to
recall these cars right like there's a
there's a and there's an understandable
obsession with safety but the downside
of an obsession with safety is the same
as with being uh obsessed with safety as
a parent is like if you do that too much
you limit the potential development and
the flourishing of in that particular
aspect human being but in this
particular aspect the software the the
artificial neural network of it and um
but it's tough to do it's really tough
to do culturally and technically like
the deployment the mass deployment of
software is really really difficult but
I hope that's where the industry is
doing one of the reasons I really want
Tesla succeed is exactly about that
point not autopilot not the electrical
vehicle but the softwarization yeah of
basically everything but cards
especially because to me that's actually
going to increase two things increase
safety yeah because you can update much
faster but also increase the
effectiveness of uh folks like you who
dream about enriching The Human
Experience right with AI because you can
just like you can just like there's a
feature like you want like a new Emoji
or whatever like the way Tick Tock
releases filters you can just release
that for in-car
in car stuff so but yeah that that
that's definitely um
one of the use cases we're looking into
is once you know the sentiment of the
passengers of the vehicle you can
optimize
the temperature in the car you can
change the lighting right so if the
backseat passengers are falling asleep
you can dim the lights you can lower the
music right you can do all sorts of
things yeah
um I mean of course you could do that
kind of stuff with a two-year delay but
it's tougher right yeah
um
do you think do you think uh Tesla or
waymo or some of these companies that
are doing
of semi or fully autonomous driving
should be doing driver sensing
yes are you thinking about that kind of
stuff so not just how we can enhance the
encap experience for cars that are
mainly driven but the ones that are
increasingly more autonomously driven
you
if we fast forward to the universe where
it's fully autonomous I think interior
sensing becomes extremely important
because the role of the driver isn't
just to drive if you think about the
driver almost manages manages the
Dynamics within a vehicle and so who's
going to play that role when it's an
autonomous
car we want
a solution that is able to say oh my God
like you know Lex is bored to death
because the car is moving way too slow
let's engage Lex or rana's freaking out
because she doesn't trust this vehicle
yet so let's tell Rana like a little bit
more information about the route or
right so I think or or somebody's having
a heart attack in the car like you need
interior sensing and fully autonomous
vehicles but with semi-autonomous
vehicles I think it's
I think it's really key to have driver
monitoring because semi-autonomous means
that sometimes the car is in charge
sometimes the driver is in charge or the
co-pilot right and you need this you
need both systems to be on the same page
you need to know the car needs to know
if the driver's asleep before it
transitions control over to the driver
and sometimes if the driver is too tired
the car can say I'm going to be a better
driver than you are right now I'm taking
control over so this Dynamic this dance
is so key and you can't do that without
driver sensing yeah there's a
disagreement for the longest time I've
had to deal on that this is obvious that
this should be in the Tesla from day one
and it's obvious the driver sensing is
not a hindrance it's not obvious
that's I should I should be careful
because having studied this problem
nothing is really obvious but it seems
very likely a driver sensing is not a
hindrance to an experience it's only in
um enriching to the experience
uh and likely increases the safety that
said
it is very surprising to me uh just
having studied semi-autonomous driving
how well humans are able to manage that
dance because it was the intuition
before you were doing that kind of thing
that humans will become just incredibly
distracted they would just like let the
thing do its thing but they're able to
you know because it is life and death
right and they're able to manage that
somehow but that said there's no reason
not to have driver sensing on top of
that I feel like that's going to
allow you to do that dance that you're
currently doing without driver sensing
except just touching the steering wheel
uh to do that even better I mean the
possibilities are endless and the
Machine learning possibilities are such
a such a beautiful
it's also a constrained environment so
you could do a much more effectively
than you can with the external
environment right external environment
is full of
weird edge cases and complexities just
inside there's so much it's so
fascinating such a fascinating world I I
do hope that
companies like Tesla and others even
even waymo
um which I don't even know if waymo is
doing anything sophisticated inside the
cab I don't think so it's like hey like
what what what is it I honestly think I
honestly think it goes back to the
robotics thing we were talking about
which is like great Engineers that are
building these AI systems just are
afraid of the human being and not
thinking about The Human Experience
they're thinking about the features and
yeah the perceptual abilities of that
thing they think the best way I can
serve the human is by doing the best
perception and control I can by looking
at the external environment keeping the
human safe right but like there's a huge
I'm here right like uh you know I I need
to be uh noticed and
um
interacted with and understood and all
those kinds of things even just on a
personal level for entertainment
honestly for entertainment yeah yeah
um you know one of the coolest work we
did in collaboration with MIT around
this was we looked at longitudinal data
right after because because you know
MIT has access to like
tons of data
um and we and and like just seeing the
patterns of people like driving in the
morning versus off to work versus like
commuting back from work or weekend
driving versus weekday driving
and is what is so cool if your car knew
that and then was able to optimize
either the route or the experience or
even make recommendations yeah I think
it's very powerful yeah like why are you
taking this route you've always unhappy
when you take this route and you're
always happy when you take this
alternative route take that route
instead exactly that I mean that if to
have that even that little step
a relationship with a car I think is is
in incredible of course you have to get
the Privacy right you have to get all
that kind of stuff right but yeah I wish
I I honestly you know people are like
paranoid about this but I would like a
smart refrigerator
we have a such a deep connection with
food as a human civilization I would
like to have a a refrigerator that would
understand me that you know I also have
a complex relationship with food because
like you know pig out too easily and all
that kind of stuff so you try you know
uh like maybe I want the refrigerator to
be like are you sure about this because
maybe you're just feeling down or tired
like maybe maybe less the version of the
smart refrigerator is way Kinder than
mine is it just me and yelling at you
yeah no it was just because I I don't I
don't um
you know I don't drink alcohol I don't
smoke but I eat a ton of chocolate like
it's just my advice
and so I and and sometimes I scream too
and I'm like okay my smart refrigerator
will just like lock down I'll just say
dude you've had way too many today like
no
yeah no but here's the thing are you do
you regret having
like
let's say not the next day but 30 days
later
would you what would you what would you
like to the refrigerator to have done
then well I think actually like the more
positive relationship would be one where
there's a conversation right as opposed
to like four that's probably like the
more
sustainable relations it's like late
late at night just no listen listen I
know I told you an hour ago right it's
just not a good idea but just listen
things have changed I could just imagine
a bunch of stuff being made up just to
convince that's hilarious uh but I mean
I just
think that there's opportunities there I
mean maybe not locking down but for our
systems that are such
uh deep part of our lives like we use
uh we used a lot of us uh a lot of
people that commute use their car every
single day a lot of us use a
refrigerator every single day the
microwave every single day like and we
just
like I feel like certain things could be
made more efficient more enriching and
AI is there to help like some just basic
recognition of of you as a human being
about your patterns about what makes you
happy and not happy and all that kind of
stuff and the car obviously like maybe
maybe we'll say wait wait instead of
this like
ice cream how about this hummus and
carrots or something I don't know maybe
even make it like yeah like a reminder
just in time recommendation right but
not like a generic one right but a
reminder that last time you chose the
carrots you smiled 17 times more after
the next day right yeah you're happier
the next day and uh and but yeah I don't
but then again if you're the kind of
person that that gets better from
negative
negative commas you could say like hey
remember like that wedding you're going
to you want to fit into that dress
remember about that
let's think about that right before
you're eating this no I don't it's for
some probably that would work for me
like a refrigerator that is just
ruthless it's shaming me but like I
would of course welcome it like right
that would work for me just that that
well I would know I think it would if
it's really like smart it would optimize
its nudging based on what works for you
right exactly that's the whole point
personalization right in every way
depersonalization you were part of a
webinar titled advancing Road Safety the
state of alcohol intoxication research
so for people who don't know every year
1.3 million people around the world die
in Road crashes
and more than 20 percent of these
fatalities are estimated to be alcohol
related a lot of them are also
distraction related so can AI help with
the alcohol thing
I
answer is yes there are signals and we
know that as humans like we can tell in
a person
you know is it different phases of being
drunk
um right yeah and I think you can use
technology to do the same and again I
think the ultimate solution is going to
be a combination of different sensors
how hard is the problem from the vision
perspective
non-trivial
part is getting the data right it's like
getting enough data examples so we for
This research project we partnered with
the transportation authorities of Sweden
and we literally had a race track with a
safety driver and and we basically
progressively got people drunk nice so
but but you know
uh that's that's a very expensive data
set to to to collect and you want to
collect it globally and in multiple
conditions and yeah the the ethics of
collecting a data set where people are
drunk is tricky
yeah definitely which is funny because I
mean let's put Drunk Driving aside the
number of drunk people in the world
every day is very large right it'd be
nice to have a large data set of drunk
people getting progressively drunk in
fact you could build an app where people
can donate their data because it's
hilarious right actually yeah but but
the liability liability the ethics the
how do you get it right It's Tricky it's
really really tricky because like
drinking is one of those things that's
funny and hilarious and what loves it's
social the so on and so forth but it's
also the thing that uh hurts a lot of
people like a lot of people like alcohol
is one of those things it's legal but it
it it it it's really damaging to a lot
of lives it destroys lives and not just
in the driving context
um I should mention people should listen
to Andrew huberman who recently talked
about
um alcohol he has an amazing podcast
Andrew humor is a neuroscientists from
Stanford a good friend of mine oh cool
and he he's like a human encyclopedia
about all health related wisdom so it
does a podcast you you would love it I
would love that no no no no no no oh you
don't know Andrew huberman okay listen
you listen to to Andrew he's called
huberman Lab podcast this is your
assignment just listen to one okay I
guarantee you this will be a thing where
you say Lex
this is the greatest human I've ever
discovered so oh my God because I
think because because I've already have
kind of health and wellness and I'm
learning lots and I'm trying to like
build these
I guess Atomic habits around just being
healthy
um so I yeah I'm definitely gonna do
this I'm gonna his whole thing this is
this is this is this is great uh he's a
legit scientist like um really well
published but in his podcast
what he does he's not he's not talking
about his own work he's like a human
Encyclopedia of papers and so he his
whole thing is he takes the topic and in
a very fast you mentioned Atomic Habits
Like very clear way summarizes the
research
in a way that leads to Protocols of what
you should do he's really big on like
that not like this is what the science
says but like this is literally what you
should be doing according to the side so
like he's really big and there's a lot
of recommendations he does
uh which several of them I definitely
don't do like
get sunlight
um as soon as possible from waking up
and like for prolonged periods of times
okay that's a really big one and he's
there's a lot of science behind that one
there's a bunch of stuff
you're gonna and you're gonna be like
Lex this is uh this is my new favorite
person I guarantee it
and if you guys somehow don't know
Andrew huberman and you care about your
well-being
um you know you should definitely listen
to them
I love you Andrew anyway so uh what were
we talking about oh alcohol and
detecting alcohol so this is a problem
you care about and you're trying to
solve and actually like broadening it
um I I believe that the car is going to
be a Wellness Center like because again
imagine if you have a variety of sensors
inside the vehicle
Tracking not just your emotional state
or level of distraction and drowsiness
and drowsiness
level of distraction challenge
drowsiness and intoxication but also
maybe even things like
um
your physical you know your heart rate
and your heart rate variability and your
breathing rate
um
and it can start like optimizing yeah it
can optimize the ride based on what your
goals are so I think we're going to
start to see more of that I'm I'm
excited about that yeah what are the
what are the challenges you're tackling
well with Smart Eye currently what's
like the the trickiest things
to get is it is it basically convincing
more and more car companies that having
AI inside the car is a good idea or is
there some
is is there more technical
algorithmic challenges what's what's
been keeping you mentally busy
a lot of the car companies we are in
conversations with are already
interested in definitely driver
monitoring like I think it's becoming a
must-have but even interior sensing I
can see like we're engaged in a lot of
like Advanced engineering projects and
proof of Concepts
um I think technologically though and
the even the technology I can see a path
to making it happen I think it's the use
case like how does the car respond
once it knows something about you
because you wanted to respond in a
thoughtful way that doesn't that isn't
off-putting to the consumer in the car
so I think that's like the user
experience I don't think we've really
nailed that and we usually
that's not part we're the sensing
platform but we usually collaborate with
the car manufacturer to decide what the
use case is so so say you do you figure
out that somebody's angry while driving
okay what should the car do
you know do you see yourself as a role
of of nudging
of like basically coming up with
Solutions essentially that and then and
then the the car manufacturers kind of
put their own little spin on it right
like we we are like the ideation
creative thought partner but at the end
of the day the car company needs to
decide what's on brand for them right
like maybe when it figures out that
you're distracted or drowsy it shows you
a coffee cup right or maybe it takes
more aggressive behaviors and basically
said okay if you don't like take a rest
in the next five minutes the car's gonna
shut down right like there's a whole
range of actions the car can take and
doing the thing that is most yeah that
builds trust with the driver and the
passengers I think that's what we need
to be very careful about
yeah car companies are funny because
they have their own like I mean that's
why people get cars still I hope that
changes but they get it because it's a
certain feel and look and it's a certain
they become proud like
Mercedes-Benz or BMW or whatever
and that's their thing that's the family
brand or something like that remember
Ford or GM whatever they they stick to
that thing yeah it's interesting it's
like it should be I don't know it it
should be a little
more about the technology inside
and I suppose there too there could be a
branding like a very specific style of
luxury or fun right right all that kind
of stuff yeah you know I'm um I have a I
have an AI focused fund to invest in
early stage kind of AI driven companies
and one of the companies we're looking
at is trying to do what Tesla did but
for boats for recreational votes yeah
they're so they're building an electric
and kind of Slash autonomous
um but it's kind of the same issues like
what kind of sensors can you put in what
kind of states can you detect both
exterior and interior within the boats
anyways it's like really interesting do
you vote at all no not well not in that
way I I do like to get on the lake uh or
a river and fish from okay but that's
not boating that's the difference
low Tech
get away from get closer to nature but I
guess going out into the ocean is also
uh is also getting closer to Nature in
some deep sense I mean I guess that's
why people love it yeah the the the
enormity of the water just underneath
you yeah
I love the
I love both I love salt water it was
like the big and just it's humbling to
be in front of this giant thing that's
so powerful that was here before us and
be here after but I also love the piece
of a small like wooded like it's just
everything's calm
um therapeutic
who you tweeted that I'm excited about
Amazon's acquisition of iRobot I think
it's a super interesting just given the
trajectory of which you're part of of
these honestly small number of companies
that are playing in the space that are
like trying to have an impact on human
beings so the it is an interesting
moment in time that Amazon would acquire
iRobot
uh you tweet I imagine a future where
home robots are as ubiquitous as
microwaves or toasters
here are three reasons why I think this
is exciting if you remember I can look
it up but what why is this exciting to
you
for the exact like
um order in which I put them but one is
just it's it's going to be an incredible
platform for understanding our behaviors
within the home right like you know if
you think about Roomba which is
um you know the robot vacuum cleaner the
flagship product of iRobot at the moment
um it's like running around your home
understanding the layout it's
understanding what's clean and what's
not how often do you clean your house
and all of these like behaviors
are a piece of the puzzle in terms of
understanding who you are as a consumer
and I think that could be again
um used in in really meaningful ways not
just to recommend better products or
whatever but actually to improve your
experience as a human being so I think I
think that's very interesting
um I think the Natural Evolution of
these
robots in the in in the home so it's
interesting Roomba isn't really a social
robot right at the moment
um but I once interviewed one of the
chief Engineers on the Roomba team and
he talked about how people named their
roombas and if the Roomba broke down
they would call in and say you know my
Roomba broke down and the company would
say oh we'll just send you a new one and
no no Rosie like you have to like yeah
yeah I want you to fix this particular
robot
um so people have already built like
interesting emotional connections with
these home robots and I think that again
that provides a platform for really
interesting things so
to just motivate change like it could
help you I mean one of the companies
that spun out of MIT uh Catalia health
um
the guy who started it spent a lot of
time building robots that help with
weight management so weight management
sleep eating better
yeah all of these things
um but if I'm being honest Amazon is not
exactly have a track record of winning
over people in terms of trust now that
said it's a really difficult problem
for human being to let a robot in their
home that has a camera on it right
that's really really really tough and I
think Roomba actually
I have to think about this but I'm
pretty sure now or for some time already
has had cameras because they're doing
the the most recent rule but I have so
many roombas oh you actually do well I
programmed I don't use the Roomba for
back off people have been to my place
they're like yeah you definitely don't
use these roombas uh good because that
should be a good I can't tell like the
valence of this comment was it a
compliment or like no it's a giant mess
it's just a bunch of electronics
everywhere there's I have uh six or
seven computers have robots everywhere
Lego robots a small robots and big
robots it's just Giant
just piles of robot stuff and yeah
um
but including the roombas they're
they're being used for their body and
intelligence but not for their purpose
every
I've changed them with the repurpose
them for other purposes for deeper more
meaningful purposes than just uh like
the bottle robot yeah which is you know
brings a lot of people happiness I'm
sure uh they have a camera because the
thing they advertised
I had my own cameras too but the the the
the camera on the new Roomba they have
like state-of-the-art poop detection as
they advertised which is a very
difficult apparently it's a big problem
for for vacuum cleaners is you know if
they go over like dog poop it just runs
it runs it over and creates a giant mess
so they have like
apparently they collected like a huge
amount of data and different shapes and
looks and whatever of poop and then now
they're able to avoid it and so on
they're very proud of this uh so there
is a camera but you don't think of it as
having a camera
yeah you don't think of it as having a
camera because you've grown to trust it
I guess because our phones at least most
of us seem to trust
right
this phone even though there's a camera
looking directly at you
I think that if you trust that the
company
is taking security very seriously I
actually don't know how that trust was
earned with smartphones I think I just
started to provide a lot of positive
value into your life where you just took
it in and then the company over time has
shown that it takes privacy very
seriously that kind of stuff but I I
just Amazon is not always in the in its
social robots communicated this is a
trustworthy thing both in terms of
culture and competence because I think
privacy is not just about what do you
intend to do but also how well how good
are you at doing that kind of thing so
that's a really hard problem to solve
but I mean but a lot of us have Alexis
at home and I mean Alexa could be
listening in the whole time right and
doing all sorts of Nefarious things the
data
um you know yeah hopefully it's not but
I don't think it is but you know Amazon
is not it's such a tricky thing for a
company to get right which is like to
earn the trust I don't think Alexa's
earned people's trust quite yet yeah I
think it's it's not there quite yet I
agree and they struggle with this kind
of stuff in fact when these topics are
brought up people are always get like
nervous and I think
if you get nervous about it I mean that
like the way to uh earn people's trust
is not by like oh don't talk about this
it's just be open be frank be
transparent and also create a culture of
like where it radiates
at every level from engineer to CEO that
like you're good people that
have uh Common Sense idea of what it
means to respect basic human rights and
uh the privacy of people and all that
kind of stuff and I think that
propagates throughout the uh that's the
best PR which is like over time you
understand that this these are good
right good folks right doing good things
anyway uh uh speaking of social robots
have you heard about Tesla Tesla bot the
humanoid robot yes I have yes yes yes
but I don't exactly know what it's
designed to do to you you probably do uh
no I know it's designed to do but I I
have a different perspective on it but
it's designed to it's a humanoid form
and it's designed to for automation
tasks in the same way that industrial
robot arms automated task in the factory
so it's designed to automate task in the
factory but I think the humanoid form is
what we're talking about before
is um
is one that we connect with us human
beings anything anything legged honestly
but the humanoid form especially we
anthropomorphizes it most intensely and
so the possibility to me it's exciting
to see
both Atlas developed by Boston's
Dynamics and anyone including Tesla
trying to make humanoid robots cheaper
and more effective
this is the obvious way transforms the
world is social robotics to me versus
um
versus automation of tasks in the
factory so yeah I just wanted to in case
that was something you were interested
in because I I find it I find its
application social robotics super
interesting we did a lot of work with uh
pepper
um pepper the robots a while back we
were like the emotion engine for pepper
uh which is softbanks humanoid robot and
how tall is pepper it's like yeah like
um I don't know like
five foot maybe right yeah yeah pretty
pretty big pretty big
um and it was designed to be at like
airport lounges and you know retail
stores mostly customer service right
hotel lobbies
um
and I mean I don't know where the state
of the robot is but I think it's very
promising I think there are a lot of
applications where this can be helpful
I'm also really interested in
um yeah social robotics for the home
right like that can help elderly people
for example transport things from one
location of the home to the other or
even like just have your back in case
something happens
um yeah I don't know I do think it's a
very interesting space it seems early
though do you feel like the timing is
now
I yes 100
uh so it always seems early until it's
not right right right I think the time
I definitely think
that the time is now like this decade
for social robots whether the humanoid
form is right I don't think so I don't I
think uh the
like if we just look Jibo at Jibo as an
example
I feel like most of the problem
the challenge the opportunity of social
connection between an AI system and a
human being does not require you to also
solve the problem of robot manipulation
and Mobility bipedal Mobility so I think
you could do that with just a screen
honestly but there's something about the
interface of Jibo it can rotate and so
on that's also compelling but you get to
see all these robot companies that are
fail that fail incredible companies like
Jibo and
um
even uh I mean the iRobot in some sense
is a big success story that is able to
find right and a niche a niche thing and
focus on it but in some sense it's not a
success story because they didn't
build any other robot like any other it
didn't expand into all kinds of Robotics
like once you're in the home maybe
that's what happens with Amazon is
they'll flourish into all kinds of other
robots but uh do you have a sense by the
way
why it's so difficult to build a
robotics company like why
so many companies have failed
think
we're building a vertical stack right
like you're building the hardware plus
the software and you find you have to do
this at a cost that makes sense so I
think Jibo
was retailing at like
I don't know like 800 like 700 800 which
for the use case right
there's a dissonance there it's it's too
high so I think cost is a is you know
the cost of building the whole platform
in a way that that is yeah that that is
Affordable for what value it's bringing
I think that's the challenge
um I think for these home robots that
are going to help you know help you do
stuff around the home
um
that's a challenge too like the mobility
piece of it that's
that's hard well one of the things I'm
really excited with with Tesla bot is
the people working on it
and that that's probably the criticism I
would apply to some of the other folks
who worked on social robots is the
people working on Tesla bot know how to
they're focused on and know how to do
Mass manufacture and create a product
that's super cheap very cool Focus the
engineering Focus isn't uh I would say
that you can also criticize them for
that is they're not focused on the
experience of the robot they're they're
focused on how to get this thing to do
the basic stuff that the humanoid form
requires to do it as cheap as possible
then the fewest number of actuators the
fewest numbers of Motors the increasing
efficiency they decrease the weight all
that kind of stuff so that's that's
really interesting I would say that
g-bone all those folks they focus on the
design the experience all of that and
it's secondary how to manufacture right
it's like no you have to think
uh like the Tesla bought folks from
first principles what is the fewest
number of components the cheapest
components how can I build it as much
in-house as possible without without
having to consider all the complexities
of a supply chain all that kind of stuff
interesting because if you have to build
a robotics company you you have to
you're not building one robot You're
Building hopefully millions of robots
you have to figure out how to do that
where the final thing I mean if it's
Jibo type of robot is there a reason why
Jibo like we can have this lengthy
discussion is there a reason why Jibo
has to be over a hundred dollars it
shouldn't be right like the basic right
the basic components components of it
right like you could start to actually
discuss like okay what is the essential
thing about gebo how much what is the
cheapest way I can have a screen what's
the cheapest way I can have a rotating
base right all that kind of stuff and
then and then you get to get down
continuously drive down costs
speaking of which
you have launched an extremely
successful companies you have helped
others you've invested in companies can
you give advice on how to start
a successful company
I would say have a problem that you
really really really want to solve right
something that you're deeply passionate
about
um
and honestly take the first step like
that's often the hardest
and don't overthink it like you know
like this idea of a minimum viable
product or a minimum viable version of
an idea right like yes you're thinking
about this like a humongous like super
elegant super beautiful thing what like
reduce it to the littlest thing you can
bring to Market that can solve a problem
or that can I you know that can help
um address a pain point that somebody
has they often tell you like start with
a customer of one right if you can solve
a problem for one person
then there's probably myself or some
other person's right pick a person
exactly it could be you yeah that's
actually often a good sign that if you
enjoy a thing right enjoy a thing or you
have a specific problem that you'd like
to solve that's a good that's a good end
of one to to focus on right what else
what else is there to actually so Step
One is the hardest but
there's other steps as well right
um I also think
like who you bring around the table
early on is so key right like being
clear on on what I call like your core
values or your North Star it might sound
fluffy but actually it's not so
and Roz and I feel like we did that very
early on we sat around her kitchen table
and we said okay there's so many
applications of this technology how are
we going to draw the line how are we
going to set boundaries we came up with
a set of core values that in the hardest
of times we fell back on to determine
how we make decisions and so I feel like
just getting Clarity on these core like
for us it was respecting people's
privacy only engaging with Industries
where it's clear opt-in so for instance
we don't do any work in security and
surveillance
um so things like that just getting we
very big on you know one of our core
values is human connection and empathy
right and that is yes it's an AI company
but it's about people well these are all
they become encoded in how we
act even even if you're a small tiny
team of two or three or whatever
um so I think that's another piece of
advice so what about finding people
hiring people if you care about people
as much as you do like and it's it's it
seems like such a difficult thing to uh
to hire the right people I think early
on as a startup you want people who have
um who share the passion and the
conviction because because it's gonna be
tough like I've yet to meet
a startup where it was just a straight
line to success yeah right even even not
just startups like even everyday
people's lives right through you always
like ha run into obstacles and you run
into naysayers and
um
so you need people who are believers
whether they're people on your team or
even your investors you need investors
who are really Believers in what you're
doing because that means they will stick
with you they won't they won't give up
at the first obstacle yeah
yeah what about raising money what about
finding investors
first of all raising raising money but
also raising money from the right
sources from the ultimately don't hinder
you but help you Empower you all that
kind of stuff what advice would you give
there you successfully raised money and
many times in your life yeah again it's
not just about the money
um it's about writing finding the right
investors who are going
to be aligned in terms of what you want
to build and believe in your core values
like for example
especially later on like I
yeah in my latest like round of funding
I try to bring in investors that
um really care about like the ethics of
AI right and they alignment of of vision
and Mission and core values is really
important it's like you're picking a
life partner right
it's the same kind of so you take it
that seriously for investors yeah
because they're gonna have to stick
you're stuck together for a while anyway
yeah
maybe not for life but for a while for
sure yeah better or worse I forget what
the valves usually sound like For Better
or Worse no they're worse
through something yeah yeah yeah
oh boy
um yeah anyway this it's romantic and
deep and you're in it for a while
um so it's not just about the money
you tweet about going to your first
capital Camp investing get together and
yeah and then you learned a lot so this
is about
um investing so what what have you
learned from that what have you learned
about investing in general
from both because you've been on both
ends of it
I mean I try to use my experience as an
operator
now with my investor hat on when I'm
identifying companies to to invest in
um first of all I think the good news is
because I have a technology background
right and I really understand you know
machine learning and computer vision and
AI Etc I can apply that level of
understanding right because everybody
says they're an AI company or they're an
AI Tech and I'm like no no no no show me
the technology so I can do that level of
diligence which I actually love
um and then I I have to do the litmus
test of you know if I'm in a
conversation with you am I excited to
tell you about this new company that I
just met right and and and if I
if I'm an ambassador for that company
and I'm passionate about what they're
doing I I usually use that yeah that's
important to me when I'm investing
so that means you actually can explain
what they're doing and and you're
excited about it exactly exactly thank
you for putting it
so succinctly I'm just like rambling but
exactly that's it
sometimes the sun it's funny but
sometimes it's unclear exactly
you I'll hear people tell me you know in
the talk for a while and it's sounds
cool like they paint a picture of a
world but then when you try to summarize
it you're not exactly clear
of what uh maybe maybe with the core
powerful idea is like you can't just
build another Facebook or
um there has to be a
there has to be a core
simple to explain idea that yeah that
then you can or can't get excited about
but this it's there it's something right
there yeah
yeah what uh but how do you ultimately
pick who you think would be successful
it's not just about the thing you're
excited about like there's other stuff
right and
companies which is where I'm investing
sometimes the the business model isn't
clear yet or the go to market strategy
isn't clear there's usually like it's
very early on that some of these things
haven't been hashed out which is okay so
the way I like to think about it is like
if this company is successful will this
be a multi-billion slash trillion dollar
market operative you know or company and
and so that's definitely a lens that I
use
um what's pre what's pre-seed what are
the different stages and what's the most
exciting stage and what's or not what's
what's interesting about every stage I
guess yeah so a pre-seed is usually when
you're just starting out you've maybe
raised the friends and family rounds
you've raised some money from people you
know and you're getting ready to for to
take your First Institutional check-in
like first check from an investor
and
um
I love this stage there's a lot of
uncertainty so some investors really
don't like this stage because the
financial models aren't there often the
teams aren't even like formed really
really early
um
to me if
if it's like a magical stage because
it's it's the time when there's so much
conviction so much belief almost
delusional right yeah right and there's
a little bit of naivete around
with with Founders at this stage I just
love it it's contagious and um I and I
love I love that I can
often they're first-time Founders not
always but often they're first-time
Founders and I can share my experience
as a Founder myself and I can empathize
right and I can almost
I create a safe ground where because you
know you have to be careful what you
tell your investors right
and I will I will often like say I've
been in your shoes as a Founder you can
tell me if it's challenging you can tell
me what you're struggling with it's okay
to vent so I create that safe ground
um and I think I think that's the
superpower
yes you have to uh what I guess you have
to figure out if this kind of person is
going to able to ride the roller coaster
uh like of many pivots and
challenges and all that kind of stuff
and if the space of ideas they're
working in is is interesting like the
way they think about the world yeah
because it
if it's successful the thing they end up
with might be very different the reason
right successful for actually you you
know I was gonna say the third quite so
so the technology is one aspect the
market or the idea right is the second
and the third is the founder right is
this somebody who I believe has
conviction is a hustler you know is
gonna
overcome obstacles
um yeah I think that it is going to be a
great leader right like as a startup as
a Founder you're often you are the first
person and your role is to bring amazing
people around you to build this thing
and so
you're in an evangelist right so how
good are you going to be at that so I
try to evaluate that too
you're also in the Tweet Thread about it
mentioned is this a known concept random
Rich dudes rrds okay and saying that
there should be like random rich women I
guess what's the dudes what's the dude's
version of women the women version of
dudes ladies I don't know I don't know
what's what's is this the technical term
is this known random I didn't make that
up but I was at this Capital Camp which
is a get-together for uh investors of
all types and there must have been maybe
400 or so
attendees
maybe 20 were women it was just very
disproportionately
um you know a male a male dominated
which I'm used to I think you're used to
this kind of thing I'm used to it but
it's still surprising and as I'm raising
money for this fund so my my fund
partner is a guy called Rob May
who's done this before so I'm new to the
investing world but he's done this
before
most of our investors in the fund are
these I mean awesome I'm super grateful
to them random just Rich guys I'm like
where are the rich women so I'm really
adamant in both investing in women-led
AI companies
but I also would love to have women
investors be part of my fund
um because I think that's how we drive
change yeah so the net you know that
that takes time of course but there's
been quite quite a lot of progress but
yeah for for the next Mark Zuckerberg to
be a woman and all that kind of stuff
because that that's just like a huge
number of wealth generated by right by
women and then controlled by women then
allocated by women
and then beyond just women just broadly
across all different measures of
diversity and so on
um
let me ask you to put on your wise Sage
hat okay so we already you already gave
advice on startups and just advice
um
uh for women but in general uh advice
for folks in high school or college
today how to have a career they can be
proud of how to have a life they can be
proud of
I suppose you have to give this kind of
advice to your kids yeah well here's the
number one advice that I give to my kids
my daughter's now 19 by the way and my
son is 13 and a half so they're not
little kids anymore but but I break your
heart it does oh it's like a girlfriend
they're awesome they're my best friends
but um yeah yeah I think the number one
advice I would share is embark on a
journey without attaching to outcomes
um
and enjoy the journey right so you know
we often were so obsessed with with the
end goal
a that doesn't allow us to be open to
different endings of a journey or a
story
um so you become like so fixated on a
particular path you don't see the beauty
in the other alternative path
um
and then you forget to enjoy the journey
because you're just so fixated on the
goal and I've been guilty of that
for many many years in my life and I've
I've now I'm now trying to like make the
shift of no no I'm gonna
again trust that things are going to
work out and it'll be amazing and maybe
even exceed your dreams but you have to
be open to that yeah taking uh taking a
leap into all kinds of things I think he
tweeted like you went on vacation by
yourself or something like this or I
know this was and just just just just
going just taking the leap doing it
totally doing it and enjoying enjoying
them enjoying the moment enjoying the
weeks enjoying not looking at the some
kind of career ladder next step and so
on yeah there's there's something to
that like over planning too
I'm surrounded by a lot of people that
kind of so I don't plan you don't no do
you not do goal setting
um
my goal setting is very like
I like the affirmations it's very
it's almost uh I don't know how to put
into words but it's it's a little bit
like
um
what my heart yearns for kind of and I
guess in the space of emotions more than
in the space of like
this will be like in the rational space
because I just
tried to picture a world that I would
like to be in
and that world is not clearly pictured
it's mostly in the emotional world I
mean I think about that from from robots
because you know I have this desire
I've had it my whole life to to well
they took different shapes but I think
once I discovered AI the desire was to
I think in this in the context of this
conversation could be easily easier
described as basically a social robotics
company and that's something I dreamed
of doing
and
um well there's a lot there's a lot of
complexity to that story but that that's
that's the that's the only thing
honestly I dream of doing so I I imagine
a world that
that I could help create but it's not um
there's no steps along the way and I
think I'm just kind of stumbling around
and following happiness
and working my ass off in almost ran
like an aunt does in many directions but
a lot of people a lot of successful
people around me say this you should
have a plan you should have a clear goal
you have a goal at the end of the month
you have a goal at the end of the year I
don't I don't I don't and um
there's a balance to be struck of course
but
there's something to be said about
really making sure
that you're living life to the fullest
that goals can actually get in the way
of
so one of the best like kind of most
um
uh what do you what do you call it one
as like challenges your brain would you
call it
um uh
the only thing that comes to mind and
this is me saying is the mind fuck but
yes okay okay
something like that yes
super inspiring talk Kenneth Stanley he
was at open AI he just laughed and
here's a book called why greatness can't
be planned and it's actually an AI book
so and he's done all these experiments
that basically show that when you over
optimize
you you it like the trade-off is you're
less creative right and to create
true greatness and truly Creative
Solutions to problems you can't over
plan it you can't and I thought that was
and so he generalizes it Beyond Ai and
he talks about how we apply that in our
personal life and our organizations and
our companies which are over kpi right
like look at any company in the world
and it's all like these are the goals
these are the you know weekly goals and
you know the Sprints and then the
quarterly goals blah blah blah and and
he just shows with a lot of his AI
experiments that that's not how you
create truly game changing ideas so
there you go yeah yeah he's awesome yeah
there's there's a balance of course
that's yeah many moments of Genius will
not come from planning and goals but
you still have to build factories and
you still have to manufacture and you
still have to deliver and there's still
deadlines and all that kind of stuff and
that for that it's good to have calls I
do goal setting with my kids we all have
our goals but but
I think we're starting to morph into
more of these like bigger picture goals
and not obsessed about like I don't know
it's hard well I honestly think
especially with kids it's better much
much better to have a plan and have
goals and so on because you have to you
have to learn the muscle of like what it
feels like to get stuff done yeah but I
think once you learn that there's
flexibility for me because I I spend
most of my life with goal setting and so
on so like sure I've gone good with good
grades in school I mean in school if you
want to be successful at school you I
mean the kind of stuff in high school
and college the kids have to do in terms
of managing their time and getting so
much stuff done it's like you know
taking five six seven classes in college
they're like that would break the spirit
of most humans if they took one of them
later in life it's like really difficult
stuff especially in engineering
curricula so
um
I think you have to learn that skill but
once you learn it you can maybe because
you're you can be a little bit of on
autopilot and use that momentum and then
allow yourself to be lost in the flow of
life you know just kind of
um
or also give like
I work pretty hard to allow myself to
have the freedom to do that that's
really right that's a tricky freedom to
have yeah because like a lot of people
get lost in the rat race and they right
and they also like like financially they
whenever you get a raise
they'll get like a bigger house right
right or something like this I put very
so like there's you're always trapped in
this race I put a lot of emphasis on on
um uh living like below my means always
uh and so there's a lot of freedom to do
whatever
the heart desires that yeah that's a
really but everyone has to decide what's
the right thing what's the right thing
for them for some people having a lot of
responsibilities like a house they can
barely afford or having a lot of kids
the responsibility side of that uh is
really helps them get their shit
together like all right I need to be
really focused some of the most
successful people I know have kids and
the kids bring out the best in them they
make them more productive accountability
yeah accountability thing absolutely and
almost something to actually live and
fight and work for like having a family
yeah it's it's fascinating to see
because you would think kids would be a
hit on productivity but they're not for
a lot of really successful people they
really like they're like an engine of
right efficiency oh my God yeah yeah
it's weird yeah I mean it's beautiful
it's beautiful to see and also social
happiness
speaking of which what role
do you think love plays in The Human
Condition love
huh
is
um
yeah I think I think it's why we're all
here I think it would be very hard to
live life without
love in any of its forms right
yeah that's the most
beautiful of uh
uh forms that that human connection
takes right yeah I feel like
everybody wants to feel loved right in
one way or another right and and to love
yeah and to love too totally yeah I
agree with that both of it I'm not even
sure what feels better
uh both both like that given to give
love to yeah and and it is like we've
been talking about an interesting
question well there's some of that
whether one day we'll be able to love a
toaster
okay it's some small I wasn't quite
thinking about that the toaster yeah
okay I was thinking about Brad Pitt
all right well uh I think we we started
on love and ended on love
um this was an incredible conversation
Ron thank you so much you're an
incredible person thank you for
everything you're doing in in AI in in
the space of uh just caring about
Humanity human emotion about love and
being an inspiration to a huge number of
people in robotics in AI in science
in the world in general so thank you for
talking it's an honor
to having me and you know I'm a big fan
of yours as well so it's been a pleasure
thanks for listening to this
conversation with Rhonda Elko yubi to
support this podcast please check out
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and now let me leave you with some words
from Helen Keller
the best the most beautiful things in
the world cannot be seen or even touched
they must be felt with the heart
thank you for listening and hope to see
you next time