Kind: captions
Language: en
when you imagine a song is it the
opening you imagine
no it's it's kind of a
just
i never think opening i never think
final i think
soundscape of how i'm feeling right now
so it could be the middle of the song
for all i know when i'm you know when
i'm when i'm doing that but
my process for me is very much lyrics
and melody and music really come at the
same time like i
by same time i mean i'm
uh as i'm expressing maybe
you know i'm feeling like
like it's not that simple but it's like
i'll i'll hear it like it's like here's
all the orchestra and you're kind of
just pressing all the buttons at once
and melody and my voice is just one of
those
instruments
the following is a conversation with dan
reynolds the lead singer of imagine
dragons one of the most popular bands in
the world with over 75 million records
sold and with four songs being streamed
over a billion times on spotify
given all that dan is one of the most
down to earth kind thoughtful and
fascinating human beings i've ever met
grounded in part by his lifelong
struggle with mental health
the darkness the love and the creative
brilliance are all there in this one
humble mind
for this reason and many others we
became fast friends
plus he recently started his journey in
programming which funny enough is where
we start this
wide-ranging deeply personal and fun
conversation this is the lex friedman
podcast to support it please check out
our sponsors in the description and now
dear friends here's dan reynolds
so we were talking offline that you're
not just getting into programming what
what's uh
the most beautiful program you've ever
written something that brought you joy
there's something
i really love completion it's the reason
that i'm
addicted to songwriting i like there
being nothing
and then having some blocks or tools
and building them into what you want it
to look like
and then i find it incredibly rewarding
to
stand back and and look at what you did
at the end
it could be anything for me it's it was
as simple to begin with that's just you
know
because it's object-oriented like
making a cube move like that as simple
as that understanding that and knowing
that i built that and made it do that
is
really rewarding
and i think it's the thing that drew me
into
to wanting to learn more
but as far as what is some grandio like
some big piece of code that i've done
like absolutely not it's more i'm still
a level where it's more like what is a
tutorial that i followed right and and
got you know and and then you know
yeah so i couldn't say i'm at a level
where i've done anything beautiful at
all in code but you're also interested
in potentially
like your heart is drawn to creating
games
creating anything um and completing it
yeah that's the good the feel good is
this done
yeah i've i mean i've been working over
the last two years um
with actually a team out of kiev
uh on
and and we can get into that as whole
another story but on a computer game
and really have kept that kind of under
under wraps but
yeah we're kind of getting to a point
now where we have a prototype that we
can play and it's a lot of fun and and
uh thankfully all the team members are
in safe places now
things have obviously been on hold for a
little bit but
you know when that started is when i
really
decided okay i need to understand
base level coding in c sharp so i'm not
an idiot talking to these people and
and uh so it's you know we've been doing
that for a couple years is there any
parallels between
the final completion that you feel with
programming which i think is a little
bit more definitive like there's
debugging the code doesn't work it's
messy and so on there's the early design
stages you're not sure
like how to have functions in classes
how it's all going to work and then it
comes together and it's really done
because it works and there's a cube
moving on the screen right right uh is
there any parallels between that and
music
because are you really ever done done
with a song it's
it's exactly the same thing for me just
in that
it's art um i really believe that
we have not
fully encapsulated artists like when we
say art i think most people think
okay the medium must be
painting or drawing
or music
or writing
but i really believe anytime you're
creating some things
engineers instance you're creating
something with tools that you have and
it can be incredibly beautiful
um
and
so yeah i think
and it's never done
i feel like i look at songs that i've
done and i never felt
it you have to let
go or i have to let go and that's all
i've i'm just continually making myself
let go but i look at songs that i've
done and
wish
i had done more or kept going down that
road and what would have happened and
i'm really contained to
because of what our band is and and what
our fans expect and
there's so much more to it that it's
like
i'm fitting in a box always
um you know it's like this song
shouldn't be longer than three minutes
and 30 seconds and
i don't know if i remember the chorus
after i heard it maybe i need to hear
the chorus three times instead of those
two times it's like there's there's
certain
especially in pop music it's really hard
to
um
yeah it's you there's con it feels like
there's confines even though people are
like well there's no confines but still
everybody's writing a pop song it's a
few minutes and are those explicit in
your mind or are they just kind of yeah
the gut is like you said chorus should
you have of course once twice or three
times is that a gut thing or is that a
rule thing you know i think it's a rule
i mean it's obviously a rule i impose on
myself nobody's
nobody's in my house saying hey dan
if you don't do this i'm gonna punish
you there's no major label president
that's like
imagine dragons needs to make pop music
dan you know what i mean my manager
doesn't even tell me that
i i do it because
it's what i perceive to be enjoyable i i
grew up listening to a ton of pop music
and then i ended up being in what is
quote unquote a rock band which i've
never perceived it as that but
that's kind of what the world
has called it and that's fine but
um
so you're a prisoner
of a prison that you yourself
constructed there you go well i'm not
confident are you happy i guess what i'm
trying to say is i'm a happy prisoner of
the prison that i have created for
myself and i made that prison thinking
that it was a mansion so you worked with
rick rubin what does rick think about
your
prison rick uh
rick was
rick was you know it was interesting to
hear
his outside opinion when we first met
because
my biggest focus for so much of my life
my biggest fear
was and i this stems from i think middle
schools when it started but
everyone being in on a joke except for
yourself
i re like the thought of
thinking you're good at something
and really you're terrible at it and
you're surrounded by people who are
saying yeah you're good at it and then
by themselves they're like he's terrible
at this
just kind of
and not just in regards to music or art
but anything in life and i think maybe
from having six older brothers it stems
from that too like always feeling
inadequate
and like the annoying younger brother
you know
um
but anyway so rick's and that's
something i've learned to let go of as
i've gotten older and
and and had life experiences but
one of the things that rick said really
early on that has stuck with me was he
said yeah you know
we were resuming the first time we met
he said i'd really like to work with you
because i feel like
you
don't you're not confined to a sound
you've done a lot of different sounds
and so it's exciting because i feel like
your fans are forgiving
more than other rock bands or bands
because most people when they hear
you know
when they hear a band it's like there's
a very specific sound with it it's like
they do folk music oh they do like
california rock or they do
surf or they do you know
like there's
and your fans kind of want that
like they want them to do that thing and
then they don't do it and sometimes that
goes well but a lot of times it doesn't
and people you know critics and
everybody is like go back to the thing
that you did good and do that
rick was
felt whether he was right or wrong
that we could
we could do
we hop genres so much
and that's been to our benefit and
detriment i think um
why detriment
uh because people want you to to be
something it's more
you can believe it more i you know it's
like uh
it's more authentic if you if you never
change i guess i don't know
i mean it's certainly it's not uh
something i subscribe to because i
create music that but but i also grew up
listening to
a lot of different genres like cats i
would listen to like kat stevens
and the next song would be like biggie
and then the next song would be nirvana
and it was like i like a lot of
and then billy joel and then enya
it was like you know what i mean i was a
product and i was a product of the 90s
which if you listen to 90s music it
really was all a lot of reason that
people say well 90s were terrible like a
lot of people say that i love the 90s
for my favorite decade of music
um was there was a lot of
genre hopping and and i don't know i i i
love that she had the
90s had the boy bands and it had pearl
jam and nirvana
and it had a lot of like women of the
90s was pr is probably my biggest
influence um like
kind of that like angry
rock women of the 90s like alanis
morissette jagged little pills one of my
favorite records of all time
the the lyrics were so uh intimate and
um
i don't know if she was angry or not
sorry if she wasn't um yeah but there
was an anger to it there was angst yeah
it was like angstiness and
that in hip-hop of the 90s influences me
and then my dad so anything my dad
listened to which my dad didn't listen
any of that my dad listened to
like harry nelson the beatles cat
stevens bob dylan paul simon
billy joel
it was very much like singer songwriter
do you mind if we throw out this listen
to a few songs because you mentioned
here in nissan and i was actually
um yesterday and the day before
listening to a lot of his stuff and it's
just like
damn he's good
and not as known
as he should be
like um
i was getting uh do you mind if i play
no please yeah i don't know
not to
not to open this conversation with a
love song
i would like that actually alex
but without you is an incredible song oh
man that's yeah
and the heartbreak and the and the
[Music]
he's the best to do it in my opinion in
my opinion he's the best to do it
the vocal
range
and just the sadness
[Music]
there's something uh
i i don't even want to talk over him
because this is one of my favorite songs
too but
i think people have a really good
bullshit indicator
and
music in my opinion
whenever i meet a young artist and say
well
i'm trying to make a new band and i want
to do something like
how to be successful i really think
understanding that people have a really
good bullshit indicator
is the most important part of being an
artist
and i'll explain what what that means at
least to me
i think that
in order to
have
success or or be a leader or or whether
it's an art or anything
people need to believe that you believe
what you're doing
um
i think the best actors
really when they're doing their thing
it's like they
it's not acting they're they're in it
and it's how they feel and they're
expressing that sorrow or joy or
whatever it is
harry for me harry nelson
he ju i just believe it he could he
sings that and i i feel it and whether
he's the greatest bullshitter of all
time or
i don't think that's the case i think he
probably was seeing that song and he
he just could transport himself to
wherever he was
it's what makes a great live act
it's what makes a great song
and someone could be the best actor and
sing that in the same timber
same eq
same compression same everything and
there's some unknown there that i
you know i don't i think hopefully it
will be known at some point it's some
scientific thing but there's something
there
that the energy or something that people
can perceive it and say
true or false and if it resonates is
true
it's so much more meaningful and it
lives on and if it doesn't
that for me is what is good art or bad
like for people to dispute over like
well sonic should sound like that's
silly to me it's like
it's a song or
or even a painting like
it's just
the truthfulness of it
yeah the
the truly great art ghost
has to go to that place where you really
are feeling it like you forget that
you're being recorded if you get there's
an audience you really are feeling it
yeah which
i totally agree with you one of the
things that i love about the internet
is
it's uh brought
the bullshit detector of the masses
um to power
which is beautiful because then the
masses uplift the really authentic right
and even if you didn't write the song i
think it helps a lot probably if you
wrote the song but you know i was i was
i was a little bit maybe a lot since
we're in vegas a little heartbroken that
to find out that elvis didn't write his
songs
uh but
i like for example rocketman belt and
john
like to find out dale and john didn't
really know where the words of rocketman
came from
meaning like the depths of it it's
interesting but nevertheless he's super
authentic
because for el and john and for elvis
there's something in the
in the fun and the darkness and the
entertainment of it like he goes to some
place in his mind that might not be
deeply connected from where the lyrics
came from but he really likes it he
relates it to whatever is in his mind uh
and and goes to that place emotionally
yeah and and that's what i think it is
and that's why an actor like i said can
be
completely honest to me maybe they
didn't write the script but
i i write like i've always written all
my own lyrics it's a really personal
thing to me
but i will say
i see people all the time who are
performers like elton john for instance
who
didn't write the lyrics that i believe
that they
it means just as much to them as what i
wrote because they
find the meaning in it for themself
at least the greats do and i i think
that that's the difference maker
and i think you can perceive and i'm
sure you've seen art that doesn't move
you
and maybe it moves someone else but for
you for some reason you perceive it
to be
uninteresting to you and i feel like a
lot of the time i'm saying that it's of
course sonically maybe it's
uninteresting too but i think the
majority of the time for myself
i can find inspiration in any sonic
value or painting as long as i see it
and i feel truth from the person that
created it
yeah but and for me
the lyrics maybe not the entirety of the
lyrics but a few words can can can do
wonders to take you to a place and
sometimes those words don't need to be
connected with the other words
that's the beauty of music they're
allowed to float in the space of mixed
metaphors yes they're allowed to just
jump around and somehow it paints a
picture without actually
um
what is it uh glycerine by bush
right
but it's also how the person says it
right it's like
it's the it's the feeling of exactly and
the same person could say that word ten
other ways and you don't care but
someone says glycerine or whatever it is
and it's like
oh you know what that i feel that
for something
the way he said that he meant it to me
[Applause]
no i can't forget this evening
or your face as you were leaving but i
guess that's just the way the story goes
you always smile but in your eyes your
sorrow shows yes it shows
um
let me ask you to analyze the song
do you uh
so there's a there's a lady possibly
who's leaving him
do you think he's leaving her or she's
leaving him
if you want to
[Music]
i should let you know
and then the course is i can't live if
living is without you can't live i can't
give any more
[Music]
he's got a voice on him yeah he does and
if you really there's been some
incredible documentation on his life and
the end of his life and
so my answer to this is probably skewed
based on what i've seen about his life
too but he he was a real alcoholic at
the end of his life
and it destroyed his voice
and ended up killing him as well
um
and
so when i hear that i perceive it as
someone who is destructive and in a
destructive place in life and can't love
someone properly and so they can't live
with them but they can't live without
them type thing which is really
something i i really identify with and i
think
is
you know one of the struggles of life is
loving yourself enough
um
forgiving yourself
for for things and and letting yourself
love someone else and you know at least
when i listen to that i hear harry being
like
and maybe i'm wrong but this is how i
perceive it at least is
not loving himself and feeling like he's
deserving of this person like i have to
let you go i hear that of course and
people say oh well he's breaking up with
her but there's so much more complexity
and nuance to relationships than that
and i and
my wife and i went through really
difficult
separation
and
that's you know story for another day or
a different question or something but
the nuance of it
makes me think of this when i hear this
which is
there's just more
to being with someone or not being with
someone then hey i think that person's
really attractive
or hey that person makes me laugh or not
or i love them and now i don't love them
love is such a complex nuanced thing
that it a lot of times
there's just more going on behind the
scenes i think
yeah uh
on a small tangent on that just a as a
curious question have you paid any
attention to the johnny depp and
eberhard trials
i have uh watched quite a bit of it
because my wife really loves it and she
watches it in bed at night um so it's
raw like to me it's really because you
you've mentioned how complicated love
can be
and it's i've never seen i don't care
about the celebrity nature of it i don't
care if it was i don't care who it is
yeah but it's just laid out in such raw
form
the uh for the world to see it for the
world to see the toxicity but also the
passion and
and the
clearly sort of uh the drugs and the
drinking but also like
the longing and the dreams and i will
always be with you i will die for you
the the the place is the the roller
coaster of love and it's all
there
at the end past the end so it's like um
i've also recently re-read the rise and
fall of the third reich about
hitler nazi germany it's the rise and
the fall and it's interesting to look at
the entirety of that process after it's
all over many many decades after it's
all over that book in particular written
by the person that was actually there
and so here we're seeing
two people
in the context of the courtroom
analyzing this rise and fall of a love
affair
it's fascinating you know the truth is i
was telling my wife this actually just
the other day because she was asking me
what i thought about it
it makes me really sad
it's it's humorous don't get me wrong
there's a lot of parts in it that are
just really funny like
but yeah i look at it and i also see the
internet
and you know someone's always the
villain and someone's the hero
which is such a funny thing and we we
talked about a little about this offline
before we got on this but i have a real
firm belief in life that
it's just more complex than you think
always always and we in
johnny for instance
is very charismatic and and you you love
him and he's funny and this the way he
does things and he looks certain ways
and he says things
he he's just you really love him and i
feel like and maybe i'm wrong on this
but it looks like the internet has
really been like
johnny is the winner amber is is the
villain and i kind of look at it yeah
and i kind of look at it and i feel like
were any of you in their bedroom like
were any of you
there for these things and i'm not
saying one way or the other like
the
all i see when i look at that is
two people with a lot of deep seated
hurt anger
and that anger is so poisonous to both
of them and they're and they're getting
through it in the way that they only
know how and
i'm not saying we should you know we
shouldn't be able to look at parts of it
and laugh about it and stuff and and be
virtuous or something but
just that there's not a hero yeah
complicated yeah i think uh unless
you're you've been living with amber and
johnny you don't know just because one
seems more charismatic in the moment or
funnier or more believable even doesn't
mean that their truth
is the truth
and i i feel like there's still love
there too which makes oh that's the
hardest part he won't even look at her
he looks down the whole time and maybe
people say well it's because angers or
or hurt or whatever
but i s the way she looks and stuff it
feels
it just feels like there's so much hurt
there
that it hurt it hurts me to watch it i
just feel like oh my heart just like
aches for them and and for both of them
and i don't know either of them
personally
and you know i don't know
it just hurts but it's i've never i've
never seen sort of love laid out in this
raw kind of way it makes me uh
feel better about
like it almost gives you seeing people
have gone through a struggle in this
sort of mundane kind of way
gives you room to struggle yourself
about the messiness of life so true like
you're supposed to
like relationship is supposed to be
simple and whatever but this like oh man
this it's like a heart
yeah
and and for the record like i don't feel
like it shouldn't be shown like i think
it's actually really beautiful art and i
agree there's gonna be a lot of people
who walk away from it and are changed in
certain ways or look at things different
i'm not saying it's changing the whole
world the johnny depth but it's art it's
just like you would look at a painting
and it might affect you
um
my only commentary is more that
there's not i think it's silly when
people say who's right and who's wrong
and who's the clear villain and who's
the like we love as human we have to
have an answer for every we have to put
everything in a box and it's like well
we're looking at this and we're deciding
you're right and you're wrong and and i
just think it's it's silly unless it's
your life so speaking of heroes and
villains and highs and lows you grew up
in las vegas
and you said that vegas is a performing
town a town of high stakes drama and
eccentricity
it's a town of high highs and low lows
and i'll be damned if my therapist
didn't point that correlation out to me
personally a long time ago
uh
so to me
vegas
from the outside is romanticized by
certain movies the lows define
the beauty of this town
and uh certain movies
so timmy casino
uh
with robert de niro joe pesci and sharon
stone um leaving las vegas with nicholas
cage if you're unloading
in las vegas with uh
uh
with the
chinese thompson
first of all what's your favorite
representation of vegas from a darker
side and do you draw any wisdom insight
from the
the the darkness the lows and the highs
from in those movies or is it over
romanticized
so i i grew up in a really conservative
mormon family
and vegas was
established by the mormons and the mob
those were like the two
very different
worlds that created what vegas is and if
you live in vegas
it really shows in a lot of ways because
vegas has
the you know the strip and the parties
and the craziness but it also has
very like neighborhoods and and big
families and conservative people and and
and liberal people living together in a
really interesting way
and
for me
growing up here
for instance was a lot of like driving
on the freeway and my mom being like
children close your eyes there's a naked
woman on that billboard and everything
okay mom on our way to church you know
what i mean it was like but also being
like whoa this is crazy this is you know
anything like
taking in whatever i could when i could
yeah yeah um
so
i saw
and i'm grateful for that like i really
love that i didn't grow up as a mormon
in for instance like utah or something
like the typical place because i i saw
both sides and i appreciated something
from both sides and now as a person now
who's not religious but just spiritually
minded
you know i i
i i i'm grateful for that
divergent character that juxtaposition
dual edged sword that vegas is and i try
to apply that to everything in life
which is
like johnny depp in the amber it's like
there's two sides to every story there's
always two sides to every coin there's
always and there's something to be said
for both like i try to see people and
and
even if you know it's just yeah i try to
apply that to life as far as a movie
that personifies vegas or or something
and that medium that personifies vegas
in a way that
that resonates with me don't say
hangover
no no yeah
i i also like i wasn't even allowed to
watch pg-13 movies growing up so i a lot
of the movies that you're saying like i
i didn't i either didn't see i didn't
have cable television you know i wasn't
like a pilgrim but i had a really really
conservative upbringing so it didn't
define
your intellectual like development
no no i just uh i can't think of any
movie that comes to mind where i'm like
that's my vegas movie you know what i
mean like i'm sure i've seen some of the
movies you've said now but i don't i
can't think of one that i'm like
actually personifies vegas in a way
that feels honest to me like or or like
wasn't there a chevy chip was there a
chevy chase yeah yeah i think that's
maybe the only one i thought of that
came to mind where i was like because i
love chevy chase so much that maybe it's
one of his uh vegas vegas vacation or
something yeah so but that's more like
light-hearted yeah surge that kind of
stuff right it's not like
i guess what i would say is there's no
truth pers that has been that i've seen
of vegas because what i see at vegas is
uh
there's obviously like the parties and
stuff in the nightlife which i'm not a
big party person so i haven't really
experienced much of that but
i've also there's also drugs and i've i
have a strange relationship with drugs
i've lost a few friends to drug
overdoses and so i don't roman that's
not romantic to me
but there's also like uh
yeah i mean you asked for a dark
reflection of it i could i guess i
certainly see a dark reflection to vegas
and i don't i feel like vegas is
typically personified as like at the
tables never exists but it's also like
i have like friends who've lost all
their money to gambling addiction and
and so it's like
what i guess
yeah somebody maybe needs to make maybe
that's an open spot there needs to be a
dark side to vegas
well it's about mormons in vegas that's
just dying drug overdose or getting shot
by the mob yeah
uh
so you mentioned
your spirituality
you've um you said that having a crisis
of faith or just
the the philosophical question of asking
who is god does god exist
or in thinking of the flip side of that
of mortality what happens when we die
those kinds of things were extremely
difficult
uh deep
um
things for you
in terms of your development the whole
process of figuring that out
why does it hurt so much to lose faith
in god
yeah i would say that
the seeking of god let's say that
is an obsession for me and has been
since i was young
i i really feel that i'm a
deep deep deeply like
committed
to
finding answers in life and there's some
answers that i don't think there's an
answer to and i'm also very ocd by
nature so i just don't give up to that
i'm like well there must be somewhere in
tibet there's some teacher or there's
there's somebody out there that has the
answer
or maybe it's yet to be found i'm gonna
find it
um i'm really my life has come been to
date
probably unhealthily committed to
finding answers about
god or the lack thereof
and um
mortality
it's all i sing about all our records
have been about
who do you think is god have you ever
gotten a glimpse
you know i will say the closest i feel
like i have been to experiencing
god is
uh
and this sounds so
uh maybe i don't know
i don't know how it sounds but it's
through ayahuasca for me
that's that's my honest answer for you i
feel like
i had pretty much given up all hope of
there being anything greater than
you know
us
being
you know evolving and being here and
then dying and you're gone and that's it
and nothingness and from nothingness we
came and nothingness we go
to where i am now which is there are
answers to be found i don't know them
like i don't know what god looks like or
if god is anything to do with the word
god in the way that we say it
but i do believe
pretty fervently that there is more to
be uh found
is it motion sensor or no i don't know
what that was look like they've all died
actually
do you know which one is it is it this
one right here
how many people does it take to what is
that on school light bulbs
it was hot too like i was doing like the
two-finger like technique yeah
i'm glad you survived that thanks
that'd be pretty ironic if we're talking
about mortality and then this would be
it for you
i've never done ayahuasca so it's a
mixture of two plants one of them is dmt
but a lot of people i really respect
very very intelligent people
had profound experiences with uh with
ayahuasca what is that what where do you
go where does the mind go what the heck
is up with that
i'll first say that i am like i can't
even smoke weed i really do not enjoy it
uh because i hate to let go of control
like
if i feel out of control in life it's
like one of my biggest weaknesses it's
like very scary for me i don't and and
some people you know really enjoy
letting go in that way i really don't
so i was pretty terrified to make the
jump then to ayahuasca
but
my wife who i deeply respect
um
made a profound change through ayahuasca
and i saw it she led the way yeah and it
wasn't a strange like i think most we
have a thing
in america that's very like a
misconception a stigma on
psychedelics where
you know it's like
it's a drug
and it makes some people crazy and then
you're gonna be on the street you're
gonna be out of your mind or you're
gonna become like
you know
a crazy person basically and i think i
really bought into that notion because
again i was raised i wasn't even raised
with cable tv you know i mean like
ayahuasca is very like
i didn't you know you can imagine what
that was like for a mormon kid i didn't
know anything about it and never touched
drugs at all and never even touched a
cigarette you know
um
anyway so i think we have this
misconception about it
where americans are quick to go to their
doctor and take
any medication
or drug
um but
you know
whoa when it comes to like
psychedelics
anyway
that being said i so i had that
trepidation going into it but i really
love and respect my wife and i saw it
make a profound impact in her life where
she suddenly was
able to
heal from a lot of trauma that she had
she had a really she went through a lot
in her life
and it really helped her heal but it
also set her in a new path spiritually
that seemed
really
like a place that i wanted to be
so i did it
and i did it twice the first time it
didn't really have an effect on me which
happens to a lot of people i guess um i
drank you know this little thing and
there was like this shaman who came over
from overseas that was really
had been in in the plant you know world
for
decades and was a really incredible
um i don't even know if he likes to be
called shaman but
they're supposed to be like 30 60
minutes to take effect and a few hours
uh the the the journey lasts about four
four hours four hours
yeah so the second time i took it i took
took it in i would say 20 30 minutes in
exactly i started to
i started to feel like
i was like the dimension of what is
reality the curtain was pulled open
and
there was a lot more
to
discover
and it really blew my mind in a way that
i think it would probably blow anybody's
mind
if for instance god descended or some
christian god or whatever it is we all
think it'd be this beautiful thing but
in reality it would probably make people
super fearful and think that they've
lost their mind
um like i've always yeah
i've always liked joked that if the
mormon god came down and told my mom
like
if god himself came down and told my mom
mormonism is incorrect she would say
satan yeah you know
we're never i think our minds are just
not prepared for a lot of of
uh of anything that's really extreme and
it was very extreme it was like the
curtain of life was was cut open
which scared me but then i felt very
much and a lot of people that i talked
to have a similar thing where i felt
very much like i was either
communicating with
something that was perceived as
god to me or highest sense of self or
mind
or mother earth or you know it's called
so many different names but it's really
it's very
a lot of people have a very spiritual
similar experience with ayahuasca
and just in that it's like this kind of
profoundness it wasn't like
there was nothing uh at least for me
that was
um that felt like just like my like
psychedelic funny cartoons or something
it was like i'm about to go on a journey
and it's and i'm going to communicate
i'm communicating with something that
feels incredibly wise
showed me a lot of things in my life
kind of almost like from a bird's eye
almost like i was looking through a
video camera a younger me
there was a particular thing that it
communicated to me
um
i really have a hard time with with
accepting success and not feeling um
like feeling undeserving or something i
can't quite put it into words but
of of my position and what i've been
given i've been given so much um
and it showed me this thing from when i
was young and explained to me why i am
where i am now and and i i to this day
like it did not feel like myself telling
myself that that's the only way i can
explain it like and there was a lot more
that it showed me and that was
incredibly healing for me
but just
to be
like
to put it into a short
thing because there's so much to this
it felt i walked away feeling very
convinced that
there is more to be known for sure
and
a lot of my deep like things that were
traumatic for me
didn't feel traumatic anymore
specifically crisis of faith i was very
angry at my parents
and
my community for raising me in what i
perceive to be
falsehoods
and that and and that uh
i felt like the bedrock of everything i
believed was ripped out for me in my 20s
and then it was like good luck in life
but really my parents had given me
everything that they could and they
believed that very much so still
but a naive young me was angry and felt
like
they had been duped and thus i had been
duped
but ayahuasca really showed me this road
map of like
this is truth and you're concerning
yourself about a grain of sand which is
mormonism or whatever it is
and there may be some truths in that
tiny grain of sand and there may be
falsities
but so is all these other grains of sand
like focus on the truth stop focusing on
these little details that are
meaningless and forgive and let go of
people believing in those things to
begin with
i don't know if that makes sense but
that was like the core thing i was
taught and to let go of control
stop needing to control everything and
it felt like the wisdom was coming from
elsewhere like really i
do not believe at least in my current
self i don't have that
the the mindfulness
that i believe
that exists in me to to reach a lot of
the conclusions that i did and there was
a lot more to it
that would be for like a late night
conversation with you but
it's so hard to put it into
you feel like a crazy person any at
least anytime i talk about ayahuasca to
someone who hasn't done it i'm like i
don't even know where to begin like
how do you explain to someone that you
felt like that
a multiple dimension
type thing happened in a way that like
putting it into words is and none of it
was words by the way that was
communicated to me it was like
you know people talk about um telepathy
and if it if it existed it would be like
i could communicate to you in such a
deeper way i'm so confined by me having
to articulate these words and put them
in a sentence to you lex and then tell
you like if only i could just be like
yeah and emotions do that sometimes
right you could see my emotions and be
like
oh that communicates a lot so that's
what it felt like to me with ayahuasca
as it felt like
it was communicating to me very clear
things but it wasn't like daniel it's me
yeah mother earth yeah let me let me
relax sit back let me show you but
but it very was very clear to me what
was being said and no it did not feel
like me uh but maybe science smarter
people than me who've done it would say
well it was you and blah blah blah like
i don't know but yeah they're very
convincing there's a lot of stuff in
that subconscious that
we haven't explored like we haven't
explored the depths of the ocean we
haven't really figured out what's that
the younging shadow what's going on
underneath the surface of our conscious
mind right and what is that connecting
to is that is that just inside our mind
or is it some kind of is there some kind
of collective intelligence going on
where all humans are connected to one
kind of
uh greater
organism like what is consciousness
we have a lot of hubris in thinking we
understand
any of it like how the mind works yeah
at all like what is it
uh like where
what is the origin of consciousness
what is the origin of intelligence
there's a lot of hubris about this we we
give each other
phds and nobel prizes and congratulate
ourselves as if we figured it all out
but humility is helpful here
nevertheless that is the question that
humans have been asking for
um
ever since
humans were humans
which is the question of mortality the
question of god
um
so whether it's hamlet to be or not to
be
i think that's the hardest the most
important question um albert
camus asked
why live
so in terms of crisis of faith in terms
of your search for truth in terms of
some of the dark places you've gone in
your mind
what's the good answer to this question
so for camus with mythic sisyphus it was
the question of suicide
is
what's the purpose
like
what's the good answer to why keep going
especially when you're struggling
especially when you're not
um
when you're feeling hopeless
you're feeling like a burden
in this search for truth
where you feel like you're surrounded by
lies
what's a good answer to where i live
i think you ever found one
well it's the simple answer right now is
to say for
it's very easy once you have kids to say
the right answer is you just of course
you brought these kids into the world
so you have a responsibility that i feel
deeply as a father to them to always be
there for as long as i humanly can
and to take care of them and protect
them it's the most innate
sense in me i'm just you know it's that
it's wired in my animal
my animal
existence so if i take that away right
because that's kind of cheating let's
put that aside because it is cheating
it's cheating there's still you're still
there's still some fundamental way in
which you're alone
yeah
and to that
um
that that actually has been a real
struggle for me from for many years i
had a real turning point early in my
career
where
we were flying
somewhere overseas
and
we're in a really small plane
and
the lights went out and like all these
red lights were flashing and the plane
just started to dive
completely like scariest plane
experience i've ever been in my manager
was next to me who's my brother
he was crying and texting his wife a
goodbye
that's how like crazy this moment was
was it real like genuine that's genuine
like genuine engine went out plane is
going down pilots
looking like crazy in the front and it
was a really tiny jet
and and like i said my brother next to
me crying typing a text to his wife
really really scary
and i
felt nothing i genuinely genuinely sat
there and i was like
this might actually be nice
like i i really felt like
this goes down and like
oh man life sucks it's hard and that
sounds so ridiculous i know to say
because i again i like i'm in a
different place now and i see my life
for what it is but at that moment i did
not
so life was primarily defined by
suffering it was a burden and it was it
was well lifted i was incredibly
depressed i had been on trying different
medications since i was young and i just
had not found anything that was working
for me and then i was in a faith crisis
lost all my faith
um started a band that
just became i wasn't ever thinking that
this band i was like when you call your
band imagine dragons you're not thinking
that's gonna be big okay it was like
i was like
this was like a side project that was
fun for me it was like art in college i
was at in school and i was like man i
hate this biology class i'm gonna write
down band names like you know what i
mean like
it was not
hey put everything aside
this is my career let's go like it just
it happened
and
i'm an introvert by nature it's i'm
really not an extroverted person who
likes to go out and like
i like to be at home with a couple
friends and have a late night
conversation over good food like that to
me is a perfect night read a good book
listen to a podcast go on a walk
you know those are things that i really
really enjoy
and suddenly i'm in this life where i'm
like supposed to be something that i
really don't want to be
except for on stage which is a really
fast like strange thing to me which is
on stage i feel so free and exuberant
and like
an extrovert
and then i come off and i just feel like
shrivel back into a show like it's a
it's i like music does that for me and
performing on a stage does that for me
can we take a small attention on that
yeah yeah of course what's the high
can go through that the introvert
that wants to cuddle up and read a book
you're the front man of one of the if
not the biggest rock bands
today
uh playing in front of huge crowds
what's the high of that and how can you
land back on earth
the high of it
is it's incredibly beautiful
to
walk on a stage
sing
these songs that you wrote
and see it resonate with people around
you and sing with them
different cultures different places
celebrate life it's suddenly the world
seems like a fantastic place it feels
like we're all on the same team
right like one big hug yeah it's like
everybody in that room gets it and they
all
like it it just
if it feels like what you want the world
to be which is just like this
co-existing unit of people and it's not
even about like
you know i i just it's incredible it's
for sure it's incredible and i love it
and i wouldn't do it unless i loved it
and then you walk off stage and you turn
on the news and it's like you see you
know we're all against each other
everybody hates each other and it feels
that way in the world so music really
that's why live music is so important to
people that's why music is so important
to people
because even if it's just you and that
person that wrote the song you're
listening to it and the two of you feel
connected
you know it's like
you're hearing tracy chapman sing like
fast car or something you're just like
oh my gosh like yes i get it and you
feel connected that person you don't
feel alone like
so that's the high of it for sure and
then you get off stage and then
you know
as my like my uncle's a heart surgeon
incredible heart surgeon who like writes
the book like he's like the guy that the
heart surgeons talk to he's out of
nashville tennessee he's just incredible
genius man
he um
always worries and always reached out to
me is like musicians die all the time
the reason they die
you know is because you're getting on
stage and your heart's doing this and
your cortisone levels are doing this
you're getting off stage and then you're
just doing this
and it's a really real thing like you
get off stage and you feel like you need
drugs because you're like i
the world feels like
oh incredibly daunting and it's also i'm
sure it has to do with like some some
like health things in your heart and the
cortisone levels that are so crazy and
then you come off and it's like
i know people are like well then
nothing's enough except meth yeah right
nothing's enough except heroin yeah and
that's why a lot of artists turn to that
stuff and and i don't say it in a preach
i don't say it in a preachy way like
i've struggled with drug abuse in my
life and
i really
i understand
why artists turn to it um
but also the fact that you're an
introvert
so the other side of it
the fame
that's something that you also said as a
double-edged sword for you the
interesting thing about fame
is that you also mentioned this is
something you can't take back
yeah so it's a thing
you can't just like
go on vacation in hawaii and it's like
consider do i like it or not no you're
staying in hawaii for the rest of your
life and you've never been there before
whether you like it or not right so
um what's that like
being
you know loved by millions and millions
and millions of people
which is um
perhaps the best kind of fame in terms
of if you have to choose the kinds of
fames there are
and
still being an introvert and all that
kind of stuff so
what um do you
do you feel alone more alone being
famous
is there a loneliness there's yeah i
mean it's so it's such a funny thing
because for okay if you had asked if we
were having this conversation a couple
years ago i'd be incredibly guarded
about this because
the last thing i want to ever
do is sound ungrateful
or unaware of how much i have and woe is
the famous celebrity with money oh is
your life hard is it really telling me
about how hard it is but i'm also at a
place in life now where i just like i'm
gonna always just speak my truth because
that's the only reason i'm here is i'm
here to speak my truth to you so i'm
gonna tell you my truth whether it's
whatever it is but you're human and
feelings are real
and so and right that's the interesting
thing you win a lottery what's that
going to feel like it's not about
complaining oh it's so hard to win a
lottery because you get a lot of money
no it's still you're human you get to
experience these feelings and it's
fascinating you put humans in different
situations right and and it's also
fascinating because a lot of people
think well i would like to be famous
that's a big thing now on social media
on instagram so the world wants to be
famous or rich or famous and it's very
interesting to think all right well once
you arrive
are all the problems solved no yeah so
uh so i will tell you according to me
what the pitfalls are whether it's fear
or not and there are certainly some
pitfalls one it's once you're there you
can't go back
whatever maybe that's fine because maybe
you love it yeah but
the real pitfall for me is that
you're now you're lex and you're what
everybody's perception is that lex is
and that's what you are
now
lex is probably a lot more complex and
complicated and has a lot more to lex
than the lex that is the celebrity yeah
so
but anybody who meets you
that's who you are to them
and you may
you may not feel this way but you may
feel confined to actually have to be
that person to that person
like i've early in my career for a long
time anytime i met someone i suddenly
felt like i had to be dan reynolds from
imagine dragons anytime i met someone
including my family now who are also
like whoa this is crazy you're like dan
reynolds from imagine dragons yeah and i
wanted to just be the goofball that i
have been my whole life
with my brothers and family but suddenly
i found myself feeling like no i i have
to be this like because that's who
that's who this is
so you're almost like playing a role and
it's like i've heard a lot of actors
talk about this while they take on a
role and then it's like they feel like
they have to they like become that and
it's
a really scary thing like you you alter
who you are almost
to fit the notion of other people
because especially if
a lot of artists are empaths
it you know a lot of people get into art
in a deep way are empaths and so you
feel a lot of what people are feeling
and you're never wanting to burden
people and you're always wanting to
deliver to that person
you know what they want it's like people
pleasing is very goes hand in hand with
a lot of like
these famous people and they get to
where they were because they know how to
do that they know how to be in a room
with someone and look them in the eye
and
make them feel like they're the only
person in the room and then now they got
that role in that movie because they sat
with the casting director and they were
like
oh you're so funny anybody like put on
the charisma do it all and it's like
anyway i'm like i'm going on a different
tangent here but
long story short
there's a lot of things that are really
unhealthy about it and then a lot of
people who want the fame and the second
starts to go away then they're like who
am i anymore like that was everything
and now i'm like on the down and now i'm
not a famous person anymore and
now i hate myself and i'm gonna do drugs
and it's like it's like this vicious
cycle like you could never be famous
enough you're always gonna get like
there's just so much to it that i've
just and i and and again like
i've i've lost friends in this career to
do that for sure um
and there's a certain element to sort of
just on the
the losing fame i've interacted with a
lot of
folks um
especially young folks like on youtube
so fame is a thing
that has levels
you're always trying to be a little more
famous a lot of folks who are chasing
fame it doesn't matter how famous you're
trying to chase more and we start to
lose it interesting things can happen if
you're not self-aware which is like
like you mentioned
you might be trying to grasp back
at where you were by leaning into the
formula that got you there and so the
the the constraints of the image that
you mentioned
becomes the thing that you're now trying
to lean into like and that that's
actually walking away from who you
really are like you lean further into
being that person that's true for acting
that's true for
um even on like youtube which is people
acting the