Kind: captions
Language: en
when you imagine a song is it the
opening you imagine
no it's it's kind of a
just
i never think opening i never think
final i think
soundscape of how i'm feeling right now
so it could be the middle of the song
for all i know when i'm you know when
i'm when i'm doing that but
my process for me is very much lyrics
and melody and music really come at the
same time like i
by same time i mean i'm
uh as i'm expressing maybe
you know i'm feeling like
like it's not that simple but it's like
i'll i'll hear it like it's like here's
all the orchestra and you're kind of
just pressing all the buttons at once
and melody and my voice is just one of
those
instruments
the following is a conversation with dan
reynolds the lead singer of imagine
dragons one of the most popular bands in
the world with over 75 million records
sold and with four songs being streamed
over a billion times on spotify
given all that dan is one of the most
down to earth kind thoughtful and
fascinating human beings i've ever met
grounded in part by his lifelong
struggle with mental health
the darkness the love and the creative
brilliance are all there in this one
humble mind
for this reason and many others we
became fast friends
plus he recently started his journey in
programming which funny enough is where
we start this
wide-ranging deeply personal and fun
conversation this is the lex friedman
podcast to support it please check out
our sponsors in the description and now
dear friends here's dan reynolds
so we were talking offline that you're
not just getting into programming what
what's uh
the most beautiful program you've ever
written something that brought you joy
there's something
i really love completion it's the reason
that i'm
addicted to songwriting i like there
being nothing
and then having some blocks or tools
and building them into what you want it
to look like
and then i find it incredibly rewarding
to
stand back and and look at what you did
at the end
it could be anything for me it's it was
as simple to begin with that's just you
know
because it's object-oriented like
making a cube move like that as simple
as that understanding that and knowing
that i built that and made it do that
is
really rewarding
and i think it's the thing that drew me
into
to wanting to learn more
but as far as what is some grandio like
some big piece of code that i've done
like absolutely not it's more i'm still
a level where it's more like what is a
tutorial that i followed right and and
got you know and and then you know
yeah so i couldn't say i'm at a level
where i've done anything beautiful at
all in code but you're also interested
in potentially
like your heart is drawn to creating
games
creating anything um and completing it
yeah that's the good the feel good is
this done
yeah i've i mean i've been working over
the last two years um
with actually a team out of kiev
uh on
and and we can get into that as whole
another story but on a computer game
and really have kept that kind of under
under wraps but
yeah we're kind of getting to a point
now where we have a prototype that we
can play and it's a lot of fun and and
uh thankfully all the team members are
in safe places now
things have obviously been on hold for a
little bit but
you know when that started is when i
really
decided okay i need to understand
base level coding in c sharp so i'm not
an idiot talking to these people and
and uh so it's you know we've been doing
that for a couple years is there any
parallels between
the final completion that you feel with
programming which i think is a little
bit more definitive like there's
debugging the code doesn't work it's
messy and so on there's the early design
stages you're not sure
like how to have functions in classes
how it's all going to work and then it
comes together and it's really done
because it works and there's a cube
moving on the screen right right uh is
there any parallels between that and
music
because are you really ever done done
with a song it's
it's exactly the same thing for me just
in that
it's art um i really believe that
we have not
fully encapsulated artists like when we
say art i think most people think
okay the medium must be
painting or drawing
or music
or writing
but i really believe anytime you're
creating some things
engineers instance you're creating
something with tools that you have and
it can be incredibly beautiful
um
and
so yeah i think
and it's never done
i feel like i look at songs that i've
done and i never felt
it you have to let
go or i have to let go and that's all
i've i'm just continually making myself
let go but i look at songs that i've
done and
wish
i had done more or kept going down that
road and what would have happened and
i'm really contained to
because of what our band is and and what
our fans expect and
there's so much more to it that it's
like
i'm fitting in a box always
um you know it's like this song
shouldn't be longer than three minutes
and 30 seconds and
i don't know if i remember the chorus
after i heard it maybe i need to hear
the chorus three times instead of those
two times it's like there's there's
certain
especially in pop music it's really hard
to
um
yeah it's you there's con it feels like
there's confines even though people are
like well there's no confines but still
everybody's writing a pop song it's a
few minutes and are those explicit in
your mind or are they just kind of yeah
the gut is like you said chorus should
you have of course once twice or three
times is that a gut thing or is that a
rule thing you know i think it's a rule
i mean it's obviously a rule i impose on
myself nobody's
nobody's in my house saying hey dan
if you don't do this i'm gonna punish
you there's no major label president
that's like
imagine dragons needs to make pop music
dan you know what i mean my manager
doesn't even tell me that
i i do it because
it's what i perceive to be enjoyable i i
grew up listening to a ton of pop music
and then i ended up being in what is
quote unquote a rock band which i've
never perceived it as that but
that's kind of what the world
has called it and that's fine but
um
so you're a prisoner
of a prison that you yourself
constructed there you go well i'm not
confident are you happy i guess what i'm
trying to say is i'm a happy prisoner of
the prison that i have created for
myself and i made that prison thinking
that it was a mansion so you worked with
rick rubin what does rick think about
your
prison rick uh
rick was
rick was you know it was interesting to
hear
his outside opinion when we first met
because
my biggest focus for so much of my life
my biggest fear
was and i this stems from i think middle
schools when it started but
everyone being in on a joke except for
yourself
i re like the thought of
thinking you're good at something
and really you're terrible at it and
you're surrounded by people who are
saying yeah you're good at it and then
by themselves they're like he's terrible
at this
just kind of
and not just in regards to music or art
but anything in life and i think maybe
from having six older brothers it stems
from that too like always feeling
inadequate
and like the annoying younger brother
you know
um
but anyway so rick's and that's
something i've learned to let go of as
i've gotten older and
and and had life experiences but
one of the things that rick said really
early on that has stuck with me was he
said yeah you know
we were resuming the first time we met
he said i'd really like to work with you
because i feel like
you
don't you're not confined to a sound
you've done a lot of different sounds
and so it's exciting because i feel like
your fans are forgiving
more than other rock bands or bands
because most people when they hear
you know
when they hear a band it's like there's
a very specific sound with it it's like
they do folk music oh they do like
california rock or they do
surf or they do you know
like there's
and your fans kind of want that
like they want them to do that thing and
then they don't do it and sometimes that
goes well but a lot of times it doesn't
and people you know critics and
everybody is like go back to the thing
that you did good and do that
rick was
felt whether he was right or wrong
that we could
we could do
we hop genres so much
and that's been to our benefit and
detriment i think um
why detriment
uh because people want you to to be
something it's more
you can believe it more i you know it's
like uh
it's more authentic if you if you never
change i guess i don't know
i mean it's certainly it's not uh
something i subscribe to because i
create music that but but i also grew up
listening to
a lot of different genres like cats i
would listen to like kat stevens
and the next song would be like biggie
and then the next song would be nirvana
and it was like i like a lot of
and then billy joel and then enya
it was like you know what i mean i was a
product and i was a product of the 90s
which if you listen to 90s music it
really was all a lot of reason that
people say well 90s were terrible like a
lot of people say that i love the 90s
for my favorite decade of music
um was there was a lot of
genre hopping and and i don't know i i i
love that she had the
90s had the boy bands and it had pearl
jam and nirvana
and it had a lot of like women of the
90s was pr is probably my biggest
influence um like
kind of that like angry
rock women of the 90s like alanis
morissette jagged little pills one of my
favorite records of all time
the the lyrics were so uh intimate and
um
i don't know if she was angry or not
sorry if she wasn't um yeah but there
was an anger to it there was angst yeah
it was like angstiness and
that in hip-hop of the 90s influences me
and then my dad so anything my dad
listened to which my dad didn't listen
any of that my dad listened to
like harry nelson the beatles cat
stevens bob dylan paul simon
billy joel
it was very much like singer songwriter
do you mind if we throw out this listen
to a few songs because you mentioned
here in nissan and i was actually
um yesterday and the day before
listening to a lot of his stuff and it's
just like
damn he's good
and not as known
as he should be
like um
i was getting uh do you mind if i play
no please yeah i don't know
not to
not to open this conversation with a
love song
i would like that actually alex
but without you is an incredible song oh
man that's yeah
and the heartbreak and the and the
[Music]
he's the best to do it in my opinion in
my opinion he's the best to do it
the vocal
range
and just the sadness
[Music]
there's something uh
i i don't even want to talk over him
because this is one of my favorite songs
too but
i think people have a really good
bullshit indicator
and
music in my opinion
whenever i meet a young artist and say
well
i'm trying to make a new band and i want
to do something like
how to be successful i really think
understanding that people have a really
good bullshit indicator
is the most important part of being an
artist
and i'll explain what what that means at
least to me
i think that
in order to
have
success or or be a leader or or whether
it's an art or anything
people need to believe that you believe
what you're doing
um
i think the best actors
really when they're doing their thing
it's like they
it's not acting they're they're in it
and it's how they feel and they're
expressing that sorrow or joy or
whatever it is
harry for me harry nelson
he ju i just believe it he could he
sings that and i i feel it and whether
he's the greatest bullshitter of all
time or
i don't think that's the case i think he
probably was seeing that song and he
he just could transport himself to
wherever he was
it's what makes a great live act
it's what makes a great song
and someone could be the best actor and
sing that in the same timber
same eq
same compression same everything and
there's some unknown there that i
you know i don't i think hopefully it
will be known at some point it's some
scientific thing but there's something
there
that the energy or something that people
can perceive it and say
true or false and if it resonates is
true
it's so much more meaningful and it
lives on and if it doesn't
that for me is what is good art or bad
like for people to dispute over like
well sonic should sound like that's
silly to me it's like
it's a song or
or even a painting like
it's just
the truthfulness of it
yeah the
the truly great art ghost
has to go to that place where you really
are feeling it like you forget that
you're being recorded if you get there's
an audience you really are feeling it
yeah which
i totally agree with you one of the
things that i love about the internet
is
it's uh brought
the bullshit detector of the masses
um to power
which is beautiful because then the
masses uplift the really authentic right
and even if you didn't write the song i
think it helps a lot probably if you
wrote the song but you know i was i was
i was a little bit maybe a lot since
we're in vegas a little heartbroken that
to find out that elvis didn't write his
songs
uh but
i like for example rocketman belt and
john
like to find out dale and john didn't
really know where the words of rocketman
came from
meaning like the depths of it it's
interesting but nevertheless he's super
authentic
because for el and john and for elvis
there's something in the
in the fun and the darkness and the
entertainment of it like he goes to some
place in his mind that might not be
deeply connected from where the lyrics
came from but he really likes it he
relates it to whatever is in his mind uh
and and goes to that place emotionally
yeah and and that's what i think it is
and that's why an actor like i said can
be
completely honest to me maybe they
didn't write the script but
i i write like i've always written all
my own lyrics it's a really personal
thing to me
but i will say
i see people all the time who are
performers like elton john for instance
who
didn't write the lyrics that i believe
that they
it means just as much to them as what i
wrote because they
find the meaning in it for themself
at least the greats do and i i think
that that's the difference maker
and i think you can perceive and i'm
sure you've seen art that doesn't move
you
and maybe it moves someone else but for
you for some reason you perceive it
to be
uninteresting to you and i feel like a
lot of the time i'm saying that it's of
course sonically maybe it's
uninteresting too but i think the
majority of the time for myself
i can find inspiration in any sonic
value or painting as long as i see it
and i feel truth from the person that
created it
yeah but and for me
the lyrics maybe not the entirety of the
lyrics but a few words can can can do
wonders to take you to a place and
sometimes those words don't need to be
connected with the other words
that's the beauty of music they're
allowed to float in the space of mixed
metaphors yes they're allowed to just
jump around and somehow it paints a
picture without actually
um
what is it uh glycerine by bush
right
but it's also how the person says it
right it's like
it's the it's the feeling of exactly and
the same person could say that word ten
other ways and you don't care but
someone says glycerine or whatever it is
and it's like
oh you know what that i feel that
for something
the way he said that he meant it to me
[Applause]
no i can't forget this evening
or your face as you were leaving but i
guess that's just the way the story goes
you always smile but in your eyes your
sorrow shows yes it shows
um
let me ask you to analyze the song
do you uh
so there's a there's a lady possibly
who's leaving him
do you think he's leaving her or she's
leaving him
if you want to
[Music]
i should let you know
and then the course is i can't live if
living is without you can't live i can't
give any more
[Music]
he's got a voice on him yeah he does and
if you really there's been some
incredible documentation on his life and
the end of his life and
so my answer to this is probably skewed
based on what i've seen about his life
too but he he was a real alcoholic at
the end of his life
and it destroyed his voice
and ended up killing him as well
um
and
so when i hear that i perceive it as
someone who is destructive and in a
destructive place in life and can't love
someone properly and so they can't live
with them but they can't live without
them type thing which is really
something i i really identify with and i
think
is
you know one of the struggles of life is
loving yourself enough
um
forgiving yourself
for for things and and letting yourself
love someone else and you know at least
when i listen to that i hear harry being
like
and maybe i'm wrong but this is how i
perceive it at least is
not loving himself and feeling like he's
deserving of this person like i have to
let you go i hear that of course and
people say oh well he's breaking up with
her but there's so much more complexity
and nuance to relationships than that
and i and
my wife and i went through really
difficult
separation
and
that's you know story for another day or
a different question or something but
the nuance of it
makes me think of this when i hear this
which is
there's just more
to being with someone or not being with
someone then hey i think that person's
really attractive
or hey that person makes me laugh or not
or i love them and now i don't love them
love is such a complex nuanced thing
that it a lot of times
there's just more going on behind the
scenes i think
yeah uh
on a small tangent on that just a as a
curious question have you paid any
attention to the johnny depp and
eberhard trials
i have uh watched quite a bit of it
because my wife really loves it and she
watches it in bed at night um so it's
raw like to me it's really because you
you've mentioned how complicated love
can be
and it's i've never seen i don't care
about the celebrity nature of it i don't
care if it was i don't care who it is
yeah but it's just laid out in such raw
form
the uh for the world to see it for the
world to see the toxicity but also the
passion and
and the
clearly sort of uh the drugs and the
drinking but also like
the longing and the dreams and i will
always be with you i will die for you
the the the place is the the roller
coaster of love and it's all
there
at the end past the end so it's like um
i've also recently re-read the rise and
fall of the third reich about
hitler nazi germany it's the rise and
the fall and it's interesting to look at
the entirety of that process after it's
all over many many decades after it's
all over that book in particular written
by the person that was actually there
and so here we're seeing
two people
in the context of the courtroom
analyzing this rise and fall of a love
affair
it's fascinating you know the truth is i
was telling my wife this actually just
the other day because she was asking me
what i thought about it
it makes me really sad
it's it's humorous don't get me wrong
there's a lot of parts in it that are
just really funny like
but yeah i look at it and i also see the
internet
and you know someone's always the
villain and someone's the hero
which is such a funny thing and we we
talked about a little about this offline
before we got on this but i have a real
firm belief in life that
it's just more complex than you think
always always and we in
johnny for instance
is very charismatic and and you you love
him and he's funny and this the way he
does things and he looks certain ways
and he says things
he he's just you really love him and i
feel like and maybe i'm wrong on this
but it looks like the internet has
really been like
johnny is the winner amber is is the
villain and i kind of look at it yeah
and i kind of look at it and i feel like
were any of you in their bedroom like
were any of you
there for these things and i'm not
saying one way or the other like
the
all i see when i look at that is
two people with a lot of deep seated
hurt anger
and that anger is so poisonous to both
of them and they're and they're getting
through it in the way that they only
know how and
i'm not saying we should you know we
shouldn't be able to look at parts of it
and laugh about it and stuff and and be
virtuous or something but
just that there's not a hero yeah
complicated yeah i think uh unless
you're you've been living with amber and
johnny you don't know just because one
seems more charismatic in the moment or
funnier or more believable even doesn't
mean that their truth
is the truth
and i i feel like there's still love
there too which makes oh that's the
hardest part he won't even look at her
he looks down the whole time and maybe
people say well it's because angers or
or hurt or whatever
but i s the way she looks and stuff it
feels
it just feels like there's so much hurt
there
that it hurt it hurts me to watch it i
just feel like oh my heart just like
aches for them and and for both of them
and i don't know either of them
personally
and you know i don't know
it just hurts but it's i've never i've
never seen sort of love laid out in this
raw kind of way it makes me uh
feel better about
like it almost gives you seeing people
have gone through a struggle in this
sort of mundane kind of way
gives you room to struggle yourself
about the messiness of life so true like
you're supposed to
like relationship is supposed to be
simple and whatever but this like oh man
this it's like a heart
yeah
and and for the record like i don't feel
like it shouldn't be shown like i think
it's actually really beautiful art and i
agree there's gonna be a lot of people
who walk away from it and are changed in
certain ways or look at things different
i'm not saying it's changing the whole
world the johnny depth but it's art it's
just like you would look at a painting
and it might affect you
um
my only commentary is more that
there's not i think it's silly when
people say who's right and who's wrong
and who's the clear villain and who's
the like we love as human we have to
have an answer for every we have to put
everything in a box and it's like well
we're looking at this and we're deciding
you're right and you're wrong and and i
just think it's it's silly unless it's
your life so speaking of heroes and
villains and highs and lows you grew up
in las vegas
and you said that vegas is a performing
town a town of high stakes drama and
eccentricity
it's a town of high highs and low lows
and i'll be damned if my therapist
didn't point that correlation out to me
personally a long time ago
uh
so to me
vegas
from the outside is romanticized by
certain movies the lows define
the beauty of this town
and uh certain movies
so timmy casino
uh
with robert de niro joe pesci and sharon
stone um leaving las vegas with nicholas
cage if you're unloading
in las vegas with uh
uh
with the
chinese thompson
first of all what's your favorite
representation of vegas from a darker
side and do you draw any wisdom insight
from the
the the darkness the lows and the highs
from in those movies or is it over
romanticized
so i i grew up in a really conservative
mormon family
and vegas was
established by the mormons and the mob
those were like the two
very different
worlds that created what vegas is and if
you live in vegas
it really shows in a lot of ways because
vegas has
the you know the strip and the parties
and the craziness but it also has
very like neighborhoods and and big
families and conservative people and and
and liberal people living together in a
really interesting way
and
for me
growing up here
for instance was a lot of like driving
on the freeway and my mom being like
children close your eyes there's a naked
woman on that billboard and everything
okay mom on our way to church you know
what i mean it was like but also being
like whoa this is crazy this is you know
anything like
taking in whatever i could when i could
yeah yeah um
so
i saw
and i'm grateful for that like i really
love that i didn't grow up as a mormon
in for instance like utah or something
like the typical place because i i saw
both sides and i appreciated something
from both sides and now as a person now
who's not religious but just spiritually
minded
you know i i
i i i'm grateful for that
divergent character that juxtaposition
dual edged sword that vegas is and i try
to apply that to everything in life
which is
like johnny depp in the amber it's like
there's two sides to every story there's
always two sides to every coin there's
always and there's something to be said
for both like i try to see people and
and
even if you know it's just yeah i try to
apply that to life as far as a movie
that personifies vegas or or something
and that medium that personifies vegas
in a way that
that resonates with me don't say
hangover
no no yeah
i i also like i wasn't even allowed to
watch pg-13 movies growing up so i a lot
of the movies that you're saying like i
i didn't i either didn't see i didn't
have cable television you know i wasn't
like a pilgrim but i had a really really
conservative upbringing so it didn't
define
your intellectual like development
no no i just uh i can't think of any
movie that comes to mind where i'm like
that's my vegas movie you know what i
mean like i'm sure i've seen some of the
movies you've said now but i don't i
can't think of one that i'm like
actually personifies vegas in a way
that feels honest to me like or or like
wasn't there a chevy chip was there a
chevy chase yeah yeah i think that's
maybe the only one i thought of that
came to mind where i was like because i
love chevy chase so much that maybe it's
one of his uh vegas vegas vacation or
something yeah so but that's more like
light-hearted yeah surge that kind of
stuff right it's not like
i guess what i would say is there's no
truth pers that has been that i've seen
of vegas because what i see at vegas is
uh
there's obviously like the parties and
stuff in the nightlife which i'm not a
big party person so i haven't really
experienced much of that but
i've also there's also drugs and i've i
have a strange relationship with drugs
i've lost a few friends to drug
overdoses and so i don't roman that's
not romantic to me
but there's also like uh
yeah i mean you asked for a dark
reflection of it i could i guess i
certainly see a dark reflection to vegas
and i don't i feel like vegas is
typically personified as like at the
tables never exists but it's also like
i have like friends who've lost all
their money to gambling addiction and
and so it's like
what i guess
yeah somebody maybe needs to make maybe
that's an open spot there needs to be a
dark side to vegas
well it's about mormons in vegas that's
just dying drug overdose or getting shot
by the mob yeah
uh
so you mentioned
your spirituality
you've um you said that having a crisis
of faith or just
the the philosophical question of asking
who is god does god exist
or in thinking of the flip side of that
of mortality what happens when we die
those kinds of things were extremely
difficult
uh deep
um
things for you
in terms of your development the whole
process of figuring that out
why does it hurt so much to lose faith
in god
yeah i would say that
the seeking of god let's say that
is an obsession for me and has been
since i was young
i i really feel that i'm a
deep deep deeply like
committed
to
finding answers in life and there's some
answers that i don't think there's an
answer to and i'm also very ocd by
nature so i just don't give up to that
i'm like well there must be somewhere in
tibet there's some teacher or there's
there's somebody out there that has the
answer
or maybe it's yet to be found i'm gonna
find it
um i'm really my life has come been to
date
probably unhealthily committed to
finding answers about
god or the lack thereof
and um
mortality
it's all i sing about all our records
have been about
who do you think is god have you ever
gotten a glimpse
you know i will say the closest i feel
like i have been to experiencing
god is
uh
and this sounds so
uh maybe i don't know
i don't know how it sounds but it's
through ayahuasca for me
that's that's my honest answer for you i
feel like
i had pretty much given up all hope of
there being anything greater than
you know
us
being
you know evolving and being here and
then dying and you're gone and that's it
and nothingness and from nothingness we
came and nothingness we go
to where i am now which is there are
answers to be found i don't know them
like i don't know what god looks like or
if god is anything to do with the word
god in the way that we say it
but i do believe
pretty fervently that there is more to
be uh found
is it motion sensor or no i don't know
what that was look like they've all died
actually
do you know which one is it is it this
one right here
how many people does it take to what is
that on school light bulbs
it was hot too like i was doing like the
two-finger like technique yeah
i'm glad you survived that thanks
that'd be pretty ironic if we're talking
about mortality and then this would be
it for you
i've never done ayahuasca so it's a
mixture of two plants one of them is dmt
but a lot of people i really respect
very very intelligent people
had profound experiences with uh with
ayahuasca what is that what where do you
go where does the mind go what the heck
is up with that
i'll first say that i am like i can't
even smoke weed i really do not enjoy it
uh because i hate to let go of control
like
if i feel out of control in life it's
like one of my biggest weaknesses it's
like very scary for me i don't and and
some people you know really enjoy
letting go in that way i really don't
so i was pretty terrified to make the
jump then to ayahuasca
but
my wife who i deeply respect
um
made a profound change through ayahuasca
and i saw it she led the way yeah and it
wasn't a strange like i think most we
have a thing
in america that's very like a
misconception a stigma on
psychedelics where
you know it's like
it's a drug
and it makes some people crazy and then
you're gonna be on the street you're
gonna be out of your mind or you're
gonna become like
you know
a crazy person basically and i think i
really bought into that notion because
again i was raised i wasn't even raised
with cable tv you know i mean like
ayahuasca is very like
i didn't you know you can imagine what
that was like for a mormon kid i didn't
know anything about it and never touched
drugs at all and never even touched a
cigarette you know
um
anyway so i think we have this
misconception about it
where americans are quick to go to their
doctor and take
any medication
or drug
um but
you know
whoa when it comes to like
psychedelics
anyway
that being said i so i had that
trepidation going into it but i really
love and respect my wife and i saw it
make a profound impact in her life where
she suddenly was
able to
heal from a lot of trauma that she had
she had a really she went through a lot
in her life
and it really helped her heal but it
also set her in a new path spiritually
that seemed
really
like a place that i wanted to be
so i did it
and i did it twice the first time it
didn't really have an effect on me which
happens to a lot of people i guess um i
drank you know this little thing and
there was like this shaman who came over
from overseas that was really
had been in in the plant you know world
for
decades and was a really incredible
um i don't even know if he likes to be
called shaman but
they're supposed to be like 30 60
minutes to take effect and a few hours
uh the the the journey lasts about four
four hours four hours
yeah so the second time i took it i took
took it in i would say 20 30 minutes in
exactly i started to
i started to feel like
i was like the dimension of what is
reality the curtain was pulled open
and
there was a lot more
to
discover
and it really blew my mind in a way that
i think it would probably blow anybody's
mind
if for instance god descended or some
christian god or whatever it is we all
think it'd be this beautiful thing but
in reality it would probably make people
super fearful and think that they've
lost their mind
um like i've always yeah
i've always liked joked that if the
mormon god came down and told my mom
like
if god himself came down and told my mom
mormonism is incorrect she would say
satan yeah you know
we're never i think our minds are just
not prepared for a lot of of
uh of anything that's really extreme and
it was very extreme it was like the
curtain of life was was cut open
which scared me but then i felt very
much and a lot of people that i talked
to have a similar thing where i felt
very much like i was either
communicating with
something that was perceived as
god to me or highest sense of self or
mind
or mother earth or you know it's called
so many different names but it's really
it's very
a lot of people have a very spiritual
similar experience with ayahuasca
and just in that it's like this kind of
profoundness it wasn't like
there was nothing uh at least for me
that was
um that felt like just like my like
psychedelic funny cartoons or something
it was like i'm about to go on a journey
and it's and i'm going to communicate
i'm communicating with something that
feels incredibly wise
showed me a lot of things in my life
kind of almost like from a bird's eye
almost like i was looking through a
video camera a younger me
there was a particular thing that it
communicated to me
um
i really have a hard time with with
accepting success and not feeling um
like feeling undeserving or something i
can't quite put it into words but
of of my position and what i've been
given i've been given so much um
and it showed me this thing from when i
was young and explained to me why i am
where i am now and and i i to this day
like it did not feel like myself telling
myself that that's the only way i can
explain it like and there was a lot more
that it showed me and that was
incredibly healing for me
but just
to be
like
to put it into a short
thing because there's so much to this
it felt i walked away feeling very
convinced that
there is more to be known for sure
and
a lot of my deep like things that were
traumatic for me
didn't feel traumatic anymore
specifically crisis of faith i was very
angry at my parents
and
my community for raising me in what i
perceive to be
falsehoods
and that and and that uh
i felt like the bedrock of everything i
believed was ripped out for me in my 20s
and then it was like good luck in life
but really my parents had given me
everything that they could and they
believed that very much so still
but a naive young me was angry and felt
like
they had been duped and thus i had been
duped
but ayahuasca really showed me this road
map of like
this is truth and you're concerning
yourself about a grain of sand which is
mormonism or whatever it is
and there may be some truths in that
tiny grain of sand and there may be
falsities
but so is all these other grains of sand
like focus on the truth stop focusing on
these little details that are
meaningless and forgive and let go of
people believing in those things to
begin with
i don't know if that makes sense but
that was like the core thing i was
taught and to let go of control
stop needing to control everything and
it felt like the wisdom was coming from
elsewhere like really i
do not believe at least in my current
self i don't have that
the the mindfulness
that i believe
that exists in me to to reach a lot of
the conclusions that i did and there was
a lot more to it
that would be for like a late night
conversation with you but
it's so hard to put it into
you feel like a crazy person any at
least anytime i talk about ayahuasca to
someone who hasn't done it i'm like i
don't even know where to begin like
how do you explain to someone that you
felt like that
a multiple dimension
type thing happened in a way that like
putting it into words is and none of it
was words by the way that was
communicated to me it was like
you know people talk about um telepathy
and if it if it existed it would be like
i could communicate to you in such a
deeper way i'm so confined by me having
to articulate these words and put them
in a sentence to you lex and then tell
you like if only i could just be like
yeah and emotions do that sometimes
right you could see my emotions and be
like
oh that communicates a lot so that's
what it felt like to me with ayahuasca
as it felt like
it was communicating to me very clear
things but it wasn't like daniel it's me
yeah mother earth yeah let me let me
relax sit back let me show you but
but it very was very clear to me what
was being said and no it did not feel
like me uh but maybe science smarter
people than me who've done it would say
well it was you and blah blah blah like
i don't know but yeah they're very
convincing there's a lot of stuff in
that subconscious that
we haven't explored like we haven't
explored the depths of the ocean we
haven't really figured out what's that
the younging shadow what's going on
underneath the surface of our conscious
mind right and what is that connecting
to is that is that just inside our mind
or is it some kind of is there some kind
of collective intelligence going on
where all humans are connected to one
kind of
uh greater
organism like what is consciousness
we have a lot of hubris in thinking we
understand
any of it like how the mind works yeah
at all like what is it
uh like where
what is the origin of consciousness
what is the origin of intelligence
there's a lot of hubris about this we we
give each other
phds and nobel prizes and congratulate
ourselves as if we figured it all out
but humility is helpful here
nevertheless that is the question that
humans have been asking for
um
ever since
humans were humans
which is the question of mortality the
question of god
um
so whether it's hamlet to be or not to
be
i think that's the hardest the most
important question um albert
camus asked
why live
so in terms of crisis of faith in terms
of your search for truth in terms of
some of the dark places you've gone in
your mind
what's the good answer to this question
so for camus with mythic sisyphus it was
the question of suicide
is
what's the purpose
like
what's the good answer to why keep going
especially when you're struggling
especially when you're not
um
when you're feeling hopeless
you're feeling like a burden
in this search for truth
where you feel like you're surrounded by
lies
what's a good answer to where i live
i think you ever found one
well it's the simple answer right now is
to say for
it's very easy once you have kids to say
the right answer is you just of course
you brought these kids into the world
so you have a responsibility that i feel
deeply as a father to them to always be
there for as long as i humanly can
and to take care of them and protect
them it's the most innate
sense in me i'm just you know it's that
it's wired in my animal
my animal
existence so if i take that away right
because that's kind of cheating let's
put that aside because it is cheating
it's cheating there's still you're still
there's still some fundamental way in
which you're alone
yeah
and to that
um
that that actually has been a real
struggle for me from for many years i
had a real turning point early in my
career
where
we were flying
somewhere overseas
and
we're in a really small plane
and
the lights went out and like all these
red lights were flashing and the plane
just started to dive
completely like scariest plane
experience i've ever been in my manager
was next to me who's my brother
he was crying and texting his wife a
goodbye
that's how like crazy this moment was
was it real like genuine that's genuine
like genuine engine went out plane is
going down pilots
looking like crazy in the front and it
was a really tiny jet
and and like i said my brother next to
me crying typing a text to his wife
really really scary
and i
felt nothing i genuinely genuinely sat
there and i was like
this might actually be nice
like i i really felt like
this goes down and like
oh man life sucks it's hard and that
sounds so ridiculous i know to say
because i again i like i'm in a
different place now and i see my life
for what it is but at that moment i did
not
so life was primarily defined by
suffering it was a burden and it was it
was well lifted i was incredibly
depressed i had been on trying different
medications since i was young and i just
had not found anything that was working
for me and then i was in a faith crisis
lost all my faith
um started a band that
just became i wasn't ever thinking that
this band i was like when you call your
band imagine dragons you're not thinking
that's gonna be big okay it was like
i was like
this was like a side project that was
fun for me it was like art in college i
was at in school and i was like man i
hate this biology class i'm gonna write
down band names like you know what i
mean like
it was not
hey put everything aside
this is my career let's go like it just
it happened
and
i'm an introvert by nature it's i'm
really not an extroverted person who
likes to go out and like
i like to be at home with a couple
friends and have a late night
conversation over good food like that to
me is a perfect night read a good book
listen to a podcast go on a walk
you know those are things that i really
really enjoy
and suddenly i'm in this life where i'm
like supposed to be something that i
really don't want to be
except for on stage which is a really
fast like strange thing to me which is
on stage i feel so free and exuberant
and like
an extrovert
and then i come off and i just feel like
shrivel back into a show like it's a
it's i like music does that for me and
performing on a stage does that for me
can we take a small attention on that
yeah yeah of course what's the high
can go through that the introvert
that wants to cuddle up and read a book
you're the front man of one of the if
not the biggest rock bands
today
uh playing in front of huge crowds
what's the high of that and how can you
land back on earth
the high of it
is it's incredibly beautiful
to
walk on a stage
sing
these songs that you wrote
and see it resonate with people around
you and sing with them
different cultures different places
celebrate life it's suddenly the world
seems like a fantastic place it feels
like we're all on the same team
right like one big hug yeah it's like
everybody in that room gets it and they
all
like it it just
if it feels like what you want the world
to be which is just like this
co-existing unit of people and it's not
even about like
you know i i just it's incredible it's
for sure it's incredible and i love it
and i wouldn't do it unless i loved it
and then you walk off stage and you turn
on the news and it's like you see you
know we're all against each other
everybody hates each other and it feels
that way in the world so music really
that's why live music is so important to
people that's why music is so important
to people
because even if it's just you and that
person that wrote the song you're
listening to it and the two of you feel
connected
you know it's like
you're hearing tracy chapman sing like
fast car or something you're just like
oh my gosh like yes i get it and you
feel connected that person you don't
feel alone like
so that's the high of it for sure and
then you get off stage and then
you know
as my like my uncle's a heart surgeon
incredible heart surgeon who like writes
the book like he's like the guy that the
heart surgeons talk to he's out of
nashville tennessee he's just incredible
genius man
he um
always worries and always reached out to
me is like musicians die all the time
the reason they die
you know is because you're getting on
stage and your heart's doing this and
your cortisone levels are doing this
you're getting off stage and then you're
just doing this
and it's a really real thing like you
get off stage and you feel like you need
drugs because you're like i
the world feels like
oh incredibly daunting and it's also i'm
sure it has to do with like some some
like health things in your heart and the
cortisone levels that are so crazy and
then you come off and it's like
i know people are like well then
nothing's enough except meth yeah right
nothing's enough except heroin yeah and
that's why a lot of artists turn to that
stuff and and i don't say it in a preach
i don't say it in a preachy way like
i've struggled with drug abuse in my
life and
i really
i understand
why artists turn to it um
but also the fact that you're an
introvert
so the other side of it
the fame
that's something that you also said as a
double-edged sword for you the
interesting thing about fame
is that you also mentioned this is
something you can't take back
yeah so it's a thing
you can't just like
go on vacation in hawaii and it's like
consider do i like it or not no you're
staying in hawaii for the rest of your
life and you've never been there before
whether you like it or not right so
um what's that like
being
you know loved by millions and millions
and millions of people
which is um
perhaps the best kind of fame in terms
of if you have to choose the kinds of
fames there are
and
still being an introvert and all that
kind of stuff so
what um do you
do you feel alone more alone being
famous
is there a loneliness there's yeah i
mean it's so it's such a funny thing
because for okay if you had asked if we
were having this conversation a couple
years ago i'd be incredibly guarded
about this because
the last thing i want to ever
do is sound ungrateful
or unaware of how much i have and woe is
the famous celebrity with money oh is
your life hard is it really telling me
about how hard it is but i'm also at a
place in life now where i just like i'm
gonna always just speak my truth because
that's the only reason i'm here is i'm
here to speak my truth to you so i'm
gonna tell you my truth whether it's
whatever it is but you're human and
feelings are real
and so and right that's the interesting
thing you win a lottery what's that
going to feel like it's not about
complaining oh it's so hard to win a
lottery because you get a lot of money
no it's still you're human you get to
experience these feelings and it's
fascinating you put humans in different
situations right and and it's also
fascinating because a lot of people
think well i would like to be famous
that's a big thing now on social media
on instagram so the world wants to be
famous or rich or famous and it's very
interesting to think all right well once
you arrive
are all the problems solved no yeah so
uh so i will tell you according to me
what the pitfalls are whether it's fear
or not and there are certainly some
pitfalls one it's once you're there you
can't go back
whatever maybe that's fine because maybe
you love it yeah but
the real pitfall for me is that
you're now you're lex and you're what
everybody's perception is that lex is
and that's what you are
now
lex is probably a lot more complex and
complicated and has a lot more to lex
than the lex that is the celebrity yeah
so
but anybody who meets you
that's who you are to them
and you may
you may not feel this way but you may
feel confined to actually have to be
that person to that person
like i've early in my career for a long
time anytime i met someone i suddenly
felt like i had to be dan reynolds from
imagine dragons anytime i met someone
including my family now who are also
like whoa this is crazy you're like dan
reynolds from imagine dragons yeah and i
wanted to just be the goofball that i
have been my whole life
with my brothers and family but suddenly
i found myself feeling like no i i have
to be this like because that's who
that's who this is
so you're almost like playing a role and
it's like i've heard a lot of actors
talk about this while they take on a
role and then it's like they feel like
they have to they like become that and
it's
a really scary thing like you you alter
who you are almost
to fit the notion of other people
because especially if
a lot of artists are empaths
it you know a lot of people get into art
in a deep way are empaths and so you
feel a lot of what people are feeling
and you're never wanting to burden
people and you're always wanting to
deliver to that person
you know what they want it's like people
pleasing is very goes hand in hand with
a lot of like
these famous people and they get to
where they were because they know how to
do that they know how to be in a room
with someone and look them in the eye
and
make them feel like they're the only
person in the room and then now they got
that role in that movie because they sat
with the casting director and they were
like
oh you're so funny anybody like put on
the charisma do it all and it's like
anyway i'm like i'm going on a different
tangent here but
long story short
there's a lot of things that are really
unhealthy about it and then a lot of
people who want the fame and the second
starts to go away then they're like who
am i anymore like that was everything
and now i'm like on the down and now i'm
not a famous person anymore and
now i hate myself and i'm gonna do drugs
and it's like it's like this vicious
cycle like you could never be famous
enough you're always gonna get like
there's just so much to it that i've
just and i and and again like
i've i've lost friends in this career to
do that for sure um
and there's a certain element to sort of
just on the
the losing fame i've interacted with a
lot of
folks um
especially young folks like on youtube
so fame is a thing
that has levels
you're always trying to be a little more
famous a lot of folks who are chasing
fame it doesn't matter how famous you're
trying to chase more and we start to
lose it interesting things can happen if
you're not self-aware which is like
like you mentioned
you might be trying to grasp back
at where you were by leaning into the
formula that got you there and so the
the the constraints of the image that
you mentioned
becomes the thing that you're now trying
to lean into like and that that's
actually walking away from who you
really are like you lean further into
being that person that's true for acting
that's true for
um even on like youtube which is people
acting they have a role they got them to
the table somehow
yeah it's uh it's dark but i think those
are
that's just
put for everybody to see
um but that's a very human struggle even
when you're not famous you're finding
yourself of being yourself
of uh
not letting not doing the people
pleasing
at any scale yeah and being trapped by
that yeah and and also feeling like it's
never enough i think that's something
all he like
it very not it's not just a famous thing
but it's like in the whole like
everybody deals with feeling like when
i'm here i'll be happy yeah when i get
that job i'll be happy when i have that
money
then i'll be happy when my when i get
that surgery and my nose looks like this
i will be happy then it's like an a
constant chase of happiness instead of
happiness
like it's like the opposite it's
opposite of self-love it's the opposite
of of happiness
uh it's there's no presence to it you're
constantly you're never going to find it
you're never going to arrive and you're
just going to live your life and then
you're going to be on your deathbed and
be like i was chasing the wrong thing my
whole life you know
i should say that podcasts are
interesting in that way so for me
personally because you just talk a lot
you can't
people that meet you they know you and
they know the evolution of you and
that's the same thing for like you right
now
a dad of imagine dragons just being on a
podcast like long form reveals a side
that liberates you more to be yourself
to like people see oh there's a human
because they you know music they have a
deep connection with you they have
experiences
with you
the way they experienced it and that's
who you are with them through the songs
but now you get to see oh that's a
that's a human being he probably gets
angry he gets sad he's excited he's
hopeful you know and there's a core
that's a good human being but the whole
roller coaster of emotions out there
it's a giant beautiful mess and podcasts
reveal that that's why i love podcasts
like long form right you get to get to
hear some artists and actors and so on
and some of them you get to see oh
you've
lost yourself
in the um
in the surface that's a tragedy with
some actors some great actors
if they've
they've left so much of themselves in
the roles they've played
that they can no longer
be
the thing they were before those great
roles that's for sure it's
it's hard it's hard to see so you get to
see that with johnny depp with i don't
know pirates he was talking about that
with pirates of the caribbean that was a
shift
right like he's not that guy right he's
he's forever
forever that guy
but the point is to remember that you're
not and to your family which is
interesting you said with your family um
when i see people close to me they also
there is an element like that while
you're that
they start treating like the famous
person yeah you know i i'm fortunate to
have
my manager who's my brother
my older brother
and my lawyer is my other older brother
and
that's been helpful because
the mat like it's weird it gets weird
with everyone no matter what one of the
best advice i was given was by uh
charlie sheen you got advice from
charlotte yeah we were playing uh the
wise sage of our generation yeah why
say h charlie sheen but he it was it was
really wise i was sitting next to him
and we were we were
playing some late night television he
said this was right at the beginning he
just said boys
just mark my words your life is about to
get really weird that's all i said but
it stuck with me forever as charlie
sheens of course it sticks with you
and i remember being like right okay
charlie you know i'm not charlie sheen
it's not gonna get weird like you know
um
but it got really really weird really
quick because suddenly
you've existed your whole life in this
way where everybody just
everything you get
you achieved it was because you got it
and and every conversation you had like
if someone liked you at the end of that
conversation well it's because they
liked you if they didn't like you
because they didn't like you
and you could make complete peace with
that at least i could my whole life i
was like life is a challenge
and be myself and i want to go through
it and find some people along the way
that i connect with and others know and
that social
integrity
is so important to us
and we think it would be nice to have
this and this is going back to the the
pitfalls of fame we think it would be
nice to walk into a room and have
everyone be like
yeah and you could be like
dumpster fire and everybody's like oh my
gosh dumpster fire is amazing
you said dumpster fire was amazing
it's like
it's incredibly
incredibly lonely and it just breaks
everything that you knew about humanness
yeah and it sucks so then you're seeking
out
people who
that it doesn't exist with and family is
the closest you can get to that for sure
but even your family it's going to take
a little bit where they're like oh this
is a little weird like all my friends at
work are now asking about you and you're
my young stupid brother but now you're
suddenly like the young stupid brother
they want an autograph from and stuff
and it still makes like they have to get
over that and figure that out and
and um
and then you meet people too who know
about this whole concept and they're
like well i'm gonna be an asshole to him
to show him that i don't
subscribe yes
and you're dealing with like people who
are like
dumpster fire the person who's like you
know you could say something actually
profound and nice and they'd be like
that's stupid and you're an idiot yeah
because it's like an actual attempt to
like show you how much they don't care
so you live in this very like
this still nevertheless even when nobody
knew you you were seeking for deep
human connection with a small number of
people
and now when a lot of people know you
you're still looking for deep connection
with a small number of people the
struggle is the same yeah
uh can you can you speak to because you
mentioned some of the dark moments uh
what advice would you give to people who
are struggling with depression
and maybe for the people who love
the people who are struggling with
depression
so what i have found to be most
successful for me
um
[Music]
it's it's back to the basics of
everything that the
therapist or psychologist will tell you
psychiatrists will tell you right when
you meet them which is
exercise
every day
eat
healthy for sure
find time make time every day to do
something that you love
whatever that may be whatever brings you
joy
and you might and when you're really
depressed that actually feels like
nothing because the things that brought
you joy
don't bring you joy anymore when i'm
really in the thick of it but um
for me all like this is the cycle that i
i'll go through is i'll i'll look at my
life and i'll say okay what what what
can i clean up all right well
for me it was cutting out alcohol
actually helped me a lot
i know that sounds like big i'm not like
not judging anybody for that and i still
you know drink on occasion but i felt
like alcohol has been very unhelpful to
my mental state
i feel less drive and less happiness the
next day for things that i want to do i
feel like it plays a lot with your
serotonin so look for stuff to change
clean living yeah clean living but also
understanding that that sometimes it's
just
it just is and you just keep breathing
and and it will get better with time
this too shall pass this past like i i
really think that uh in the winter you
know i i'm pretty sure i mean i've had a
lot of i've seen a lot of therapists and
all of them say the same thing which is
like you have major depressive disorder
and this is what it is but
it's certainly worse for me in the
winter months so i know there's like
um i can't think of the term for it but
there's a term for like seasonal
depression there it is
um
so i'll get to the winter and suddenly
i'm like geez everything really
sucks on a deeper level
and then you know so it's like this too
shall pass is another thing it's like
just
practice those things
absolutely see a therapist that's my big
like my biggest emphasis of life is to
like on stage like my goal like i have a
few things that i really really care
about one is
is is mental health health and
destigmatizing therapy because for me i
didn't go to therapy for a long time
because i felt that it would be
admitting that i was broken
it'd be admitting that i was weaker than
lex who doesn't have to go to a
therapist because lex is stronger so be
strong like lex
you know i would like look at all my
older brothers and i looked up to them
so much and they're all these incredibly
successful people plastic surgeon an
anesthesiologist a dentist two attorneys
stanford nyu like just like incredible
high standards
eagle scouts you know like
they valedictorians like they just did
it all
so for me
i was very
really did not want to admit and none of
them went to therapy
so it was like what are you gonna be the
are you oh you're broken are you like
the weak one who can't hack life
and i think that's incredibly dangerous
um and i feel like it almost cost me my
life because i took so long
to finally go to therapy so i really
want kids to know
hey like the great people that achieve
great things that are doing amazing
things they probably have help almost
all of them it's like going to the gym
but it's a mental gym what um so i
unfortunately i wanted to be a
psychiatrist when i was growing up
uh
maybe maybe that's why i like podcasts
maybe that's i think you'd be a good one
maybe
i would i would i think you are a
psychiatrist pretty much right
sounds like you're a psychiatrist i
think i need more i think
i i think actually to be a good
psychiatrist you also need to be seeking
therapy from the like you also need to
be
have some stuff to work through in your
mind right
i think uh yeah you have to have gone to
some dark places
um empathize the the empathy it's this
ability to empathize and especially if
you've directly
experienced it you can
you can go to those places in your mind
like you said it's with the music to be
authentic you have to really go there
what um why
did therapy help so much what is the
process of therapy if you can just
educate a little more is it
are you basically bringing to the
surface and talking through things
that you
because of the
the momentum of life you just never
allow yourself
to speak through to think through is
that what therapy is or is this a more
systematic thing
so i've been to a lot of strange
different kinds of therapies so i'll
tell you my first therapist if i could
sort of corrupt uh how hard is it to
find
a therapist that connected with you
it is
it's actually pretty hard i think i
think i think uh it for
well actually i have a skewed view of
that because
going back to the beginning of my
therapy was with a mormon
therapist so it was very much like
well are you reading your book of mormon
and are you praying at night you know
what i mean like that was a big focus of
my therapy to begin with and you're
having yeah a faith crisis in the
distance yes
i was like well
and then you're making it worse yes the
next therapist i went to
was
uh
a scientology therapist i met my wife
and she was a scientologist at the time
and she's not anymore
she's like
it's such a funny thing to like to look
back on because we met and i was like
this mormon missionary who just got home
from his mission and i met her and i was
she's a scientologist i was like wow
that's bad shit crazy like
and like that stuff's crazy and she's
like what are you talking about that's
your crazy
mormon that's bad shit crazy and the two
of us were like
huh
maybe there's something to this to both
of us here yeah the tension actually
forces you to think through like oh well
what is true yes yeah and we really fell
in love through
that which was like maybe that we're
both on the wrong track let's figure
this out but before that happened we
went to uh
a
scientologist therapist
who that therapy consisted of what have
you done wrong
to asia and they asked they would ask me
that question over and over and over and
over until i'm like thinking of the
deepest darkest things that were in the
recesses of my mind this was a therap
this was marriage therapy
anyway i'm not gonna get into that but
it was
it was scientology therapy so that was a
different thing and then
i went to
therapy therapy like no not attached to
any religion
and that was a really great experience
for me and and since then i've been
through a couple different therapists
but that was more because where i was
and moving and things like that
so is it that hard to find a great
therapist probably not but maybe don't
go to your mormon therapist personal
psychology therapist
or maybe that's maybe that's the route
for you maybe it's around for you i
don't know yeah but what is so is it
bringing stuff to the surface basically
oh yeah so i didn't even answer your
question what's the effect why is it so
effective just um
is there something you could put words
to
yeah i mean i think it's obviously
there's the common things you would
think of which is like oh i've been
holding these things in and i don't want
to tell anybody and then i tell this
person and there's relief in that but
that's really not where the real work
comes from i think the real work is
meeting with someone who is well-versed
and educated and understands
it's like it's like coding it really is
it's like someone who like they listen
to you and they're like well that was a
trigger and then this became this
trigger and you're probably every time
you're hearing that thinking of this
thing that happened earlier in your life
and they just will walk you through
scenarios and maybe some of them aren't
right but some of them you'll be like
it'll resonate sometimes you're like wow
i am feeling that because of that and
that did happen and maybe if i call my
mom and say this to her it will make me
feel better hey mom this happened it's
like work you you put in work and you
have hard conversations and do difficult
things and if so if your therapy is not
difficult
i actually think that's that's not good
therapy good therapy is it's going to be
a little difficult it's work
like um during and after yes like i had
this incredible therapist who was who
i told him when i was going to do
ayahuasca he was like jesus you know he
had actually was a doctor before and a
really well-educated studied person who
had uh walked away from uh brain doctor
what's the word for that brain doctor a
brain surgeon neurologist oh yeah
neurologist yeah and he uh
and he said well basically his belief
was that uh ayahuasca was like
basically doing therapy like 50 sessions
he was like it's it's like really
intensive he's like
you i don't know if you want to do that
if you do you can you can make you know
some big steps forward but i prefer just
to do one once one session at a time
and um
so yeah it's hard work and and that i
typically like it's really hard for me
to talk about ayahuasca by the way going
back to that because i'm not looking to
tell everybody to go to ayahuasca it's
incredibly hard it was the scariest
experience of my entire life it felt
like i went to heaven but it also felt
like i went to the darkest deepest hell
that was
incredibly scary
um
incredibly scary yeah
she told the story of uh how you wrote
the the song believer or like um
your your childhood friend i guess
donald like like bullying and that kind
of stuff
for this song
i mean a lot of your songs are super
interesting sort of
um in terms of percussion super
interesting super interesting lyrically
just how it flows and also
pain is at the center of it i mean a lot
of
like you said the crisis of faith some
of these existential questions are
basically behind a lot of your songs
funny enough um maybe they're covered in
metaphor so it's hard to see uh but it's
there and this song is really
it's really interesting in that way that
it puts
uh you know
pain you made me a believer
you break me down you build me up
believer
that's so interesting
um maybe can you tell this the story of
how the song came to be i'd love to
listen to it too i have some questions
musically about it too yeah
yeah i mean um
it's exactly what we're talking about
with therapy i just feel like
the greatest things in my life
have
come from
the deepest
hurt
like losing someone
you know that you love
is maybe the hardest part of the human
path for me at least thus far like i i
when i think of okay what was the
hardest thing there's like okay you know
there's like you think of physical pain
or maybe like going through financial
pain or whatever i think losing someone
that you really love to death
is what is one of the hardest
for me i would say it was the hardest
and
um
but it also makes you look at your life
completely differently
and alter your life at least for me in
ways that were really healthy
um being more present
letting go of things that were
meaningless trying to control what other
people think about you like wasting your
time on things like that and you
suddenly see like wow like time
i got small amount of time like how do i
want to spend it i'm going to spend it
in the best way i know how and that's it
so
yeah i mean that's it's a basic comment
concept that's been said a million times
over in a million different ways but
that's pretty much what i was trying to
say with believer which is like
i've lost face and faith in everything
uh at that time period and
you know or previous to that time period
and then i was rebuilding my faith or
my my spiritual
thought process and it was after
ayahuasca and it was like
you know finding being a believer and
that
and that's not necessarily like a
believer in god or a believer in
heaven and hell or anything like that
but a believer in
more
believing in in goodness believing in
that there is some light like and again
those words like
they're just words and i wish there were
better words to formulate the thought
that i'm trying to express but
just more uh like the thought of
me dying
for me i don't fear it
i don't fear it
but
actually i i really fear not seeing my
kids again i'll say that that is fearful
for me i feel like i love so deeply
these children that the thought of like
leaving them
for me is this is a
a scary thought or something they're
they're kind of
good reminder how much you love life
actually yeah
and you don't always
remember that
yeah and uh i think having kids is not
for everyone for absolutely for sure but
for me and especially you shouldn't be
having kids to give yourself a reason to
live
i mean like i feel like dying i'm gonna
have a kid like
you might feel more like dying after
having a kid actually
you know it's pretty stressful uh but it
is a place to like i've changed a lot of
people that i've known that it gave them
a new intensity
of gratitude for life for sure
god do you mind if we i'll return to the
the pain of the believer you might if we
listen to it a little bit
did you write the music first or the
words first
the same time which is very typical for
me
but uh just the way it opens like how
you know intensity of openings you ever
think about like what the first few
seconds sound like is that something
that um like when you imagine a song
is it the opening you imagine
no it's it's kind of a it's just a
i never think opening i never think
final i think
soundscape of how i'm feeling right now
so it could be the middle of the song
for all i know when i'm you know when
i'm when i'm doing that but
my process for me is very much lyrics
and melody and music
really come at the same time like i
by same time i mean i'm
i'm uh as i'm expressing maybe
you know i'm feeling like
like it's not that simple but it's like
i'll i'll hear it like it's like here's
all the orchestra and you're kind of
just pressing all the buttons at once
and melody and my voice is just one of
those
instruments you know i mean it's just
utilizing one instrument so you're
seeing the landscape and that landscape
includes melody includes percussion
lyrics yeah a little bit or literally
it will be words to begin like a word
here and there and i'll be like
you know i'm like what's a word that i'm
thinking of when i'm feeling this
soundscape and uh i always create
with no theme in mind i'm never
for for better or for worse just my
process is i'm sitting down
and i'm writing a journal entry simple
as that it's like when you sit down to
write a journal entry are you sitting
down and you're like okay i've had all
these words here that i'm going to put
on the page and i'm going to order it in
this way and my theme for my journal
entry today is going to be this maybe
some people do but i don't my journal
entry is
i don't know what i'm going to say oh
how was today well man today was this
and i'm feeling this and now that i
think about that i'm really angry about
that that hurt my feelings when this
you're like you're formulating it as you
go and that's the joy of it and for me
that's what music is
so i'll sit down
not thinking hey i've been wanting to
write a song that has a hard beat or
i've been wanting to write a song that's
anthemic or i've been wanting to write a
song that's it's like how am i feeling
right now and it's joyful is it feeling
joyful to you or is it struggle
because you just made it sound like it's
i think uh joyful
um
or at least
yeah fulfilling is the word i was kind
of looking for but there was there's a
lot of artists talk about really strong
like you talk about writers cathartic
that's the word
it feels like
having a good moment with a therapist
where you're like
okay
i'm expressing this thing that i just
need to express for whatever reason i
need to express this the majority of the
songs i write for the record are never
heard i write over 100 songs a year i
release
20 songs
every three years
so
i don't know what's that percent 20 out
of 300 come on lex
less than ten percent less than
jefferson
or something yeah um
anyway so it's and then like getting
together with a band and like getting
them selected down is really what uh the
process have so you're really writing
a song per one to three days kind of
maybe a song that you can't quite figure
out the puzzle of that's going to last a
little a little longer
is it worth it for every idea yeah
you finish every idea i do i finish
every idea so it's not just like laying
completely unfinished i could open my
computer for you right now and i would
show you
hundreds and hundreds of songs that you
would listen to and think
that sounds like a song it's like
there's rhythm there's melody there's
multiple instruments there's lyrics like
i it's the same thing as is for coding
for me which is music which is yeah i
can't walk away until i've completed it
but it's finished my well finished is
finished yeah but it sounds like a song
i certainly do a lot more with it after
with the band where we should pull it
all apart but it's a song it'll be like
you know it's you'll listen to it and
say okay that was a song i get
you understand what what it is for sure
do you think
this is a painful question from a fan
perspective do you think there's
genius
on your computer that you walked away
from that you just didn't notice it
like do you think there's truly great
songs that you've written
that you just
didn't notice how great they are i i
think
greatness is something that i feel i'm
i'm
i don't feel like i've achieved
greatness genuine i'm not saying that to
you in a way of like humility michael
jordan
no genuinely i feel like i
am on a journey right now
to find who i am and i'm 34 and it's
like
i don't even i i haven't begun that
journey i feel like i'm just starting
that
but that being said
i certainly
don't know
the right answer to what songs are you
know beloved or good to the masses like
imagine dragons is such a massive entity
it's like
there have been a i will say this there
are a couple times where i fought really
hard to decide on the single really hard
or i always fight for what goes on the
record always i always put the record
together and that's the record that i
wanted to be and me and the guys come up
with that and it's nobody else has
influence no manager no label
the single
everybody wants to have a saying your
label wants to have a say in it your
manager wants to have a say in it
and i have fought really hard over that
and i've been wrong before and i've been
right before
um
but as far as songs that i haven't put
out
i mean
you can imagine so many songs you think
you think of so many beatles songs
that are like some of their grace while
my guitar gently weeps right
let me i'm trying to imagine
weird sounding not that interesting
possibly songs the majority of what we
honestly
they may it may be
our best stuff is that we don't put out
for instance because our band is such a
it's such a complex question i really
don't know actually i don't know maybe
one day i'll die and people will look
and be like i hated imagine dragons but
now i listen to that song i really like
that i wish they would put that out or
maybe they'll be like oh it all sounds
like shit i don't really know
um well that's that's sorry it is a
tragic thing that's why i asked it which
is like
it could be some
[Music]
great incredible things that
that will take you a long time to
rediscover to realize how great they are
and it's it's also the tragic aspect of
being an artist is you don't know
if you get fame or all that kind of
stuff you don't know what's going to
really move people because ultimately
what you want
is to
to connect with people and you don't
know what that's going to be
it's hard i mean to me it's
to me it's tragic just as a fan of yours
to see maybe i wonder if there's like
incredible stuff there just as it is
tragic to see great artists throughout
history who didn't get recognition until
they died
it's like
because they basically held on you know
uh franz kafka was extremely
self-critical
a lot of these folks had an idea of
what's good and not and they were wrong
right
they were gene they had genius
they weren't entirely wrong because they
became sufficiently popular but it's
interesting i try to genuinely to
release the songs that move me the most
i'll say that you're an audience you're
your own audience yeah i try to put out
the songs that make me feel
the most like i fee i feel
that that's my only gauge because it's
so subjective of like what is good
what's this
nobody knows the song the masses are
gonna like nobody knows that formula
nobody knows it so for me it's always
what makes me feel something one of the
main lessons rick rubin taught me when
we worked with him on this record was he
would say
he would his his
main point that he would continually
bring up when like
because he he's not the type of person
be like that's a bad song or that's good
it's just not who rick rubin is it's
more like there's more nuance to it he
would say
i don't really believe you on that song
that's what he would say he would say
and i knew that was like
that song's a no-go you say and i and i
would genuine there was a time he said
it and it was about a song that i really
like i really
felt it and meant it when i said it
but
he didn't believe it when he heard it
and that was enough i was like man well
the end of the day like i can believe it
all i want but if the listener
doesn't feel the honesty in it just like
we were talking about earlier i think
the most important ingredient is
is this truth perceived as truth
to someone else and if it's not the
bullshit indicator goes and you're like
i don't care i don't throw it away i
don't care about it well he you said
that he made you go through
like line by line the lyrics every
example that was excruciating for me
why was that excruciating well first of
all it's rick rubin so you're in the
room with like rick rubin who's done a
lot of the greatest
of all time
and um
so i had to first just put that aside
and be like okay well you've done a lot
of my favorite records but
still you're you're human and not
everything you say is gonna be right you
know i and i'm a strongly opinionated
person and so is rick and so when the
two of us were kind of together it was
you know
um but the lyrics which is interesting
so it's not every entire composition but
just like let's look at the lyrics yeah
i mean here
yeah oh yeah because he would look over
every there was like um
[Music]
and there was there were battles he won
battles that that that he didn't win and
maybe he was right i don't know i mean
there was for instance i'll give you an
example there's a song on the record
called number one okay
rick will probably laugh when he hears
this
um
because this was a big one that we kept
going back and forth on but this will
give you a good insight of what it's
what it was like what it was like and
there's a line in it that says um
i don't know the course is i don't know
what i'm meant to be i don't need no one
to believe when it's all been said and
done i'm still my number one and he was
like ah just makes me cringe when i hear
that
he's like i just
like do you have to be like can it not
be like you're still my number one i was
like no it's not about anybody else like
you know it's about like self-love he's
like yeah but like do you need to like
talk about self-love like that and i was
like well i can't i feel like i need to
it's like oh but you know there's
something else we could say there like
we just kept
you know we kept coming back to this
song okay i was like i and i changed it
i tried changing it like what did i
change it to it was like it wasn't
you're still my number one because it
just made no sense it wasn't about some
love thing or like someone else
i changed it to something else and it
just it was the one thing that i was
like i'm really sorry rick like
i get it
and if it sounds cringy to you it's
definitely sounding cringy to other
people too and that sucks but
i don't know how else to say this in a
way that i want to put that song out
anymore
but there were other songs for sure
where rick was like that or this that
word
feels a little trite you already said
that once can you say it in a different
way it was really helpful and that yeah
it's really interesting because uh
you're trying to say something so simply
and yet not make it cringe that's really
hard that's that's like a that's a
strange art form because you want to say
some of the greatest love songs we i
mean we looked at the the without you
song i mean that's the whole thing is
cringy if you just read it on paper like
i said
like like it's a court report or
something but
yet it's not especially when sung maybe
but no there's something about
yeah
maybe
sung in a way you believe it when you
believe it but also written in a way
that's
singable in the way you believe it so
it's like
right and then it rolls off it just
comes out in a way that just feels like
silky no word catches your mind is
cringy yes
just
but then music
um i think great speeches are like that
too or just
you know conveying communicating ideas
simply
that's the that's the art form is to not
be cringy so interesting and then yet
because like when you're raw and real
it might at first feel cringey
so the the battle there and that that's
where
you see people fail like just regular
artists like um i don't know open at
open mic i go to open mic so i just
listen to musicians like when they write
songs like they they fail that test
they write simple stuff but it's cringy
why i wonder what was that like what is
that i i'm telling you like i tried to
explain this to my brother the other day
because it's the same thing with a live
performance
if i'm not in my right head space and i
walk on stage and i walk up and let's
say i say something and i do this
yeah hey cause i'm like this is the move
right i'm like this is the move
the crowd doesn't care yeah in fact the
crowd's like that's cringy when you did
yes
but if i wasn't thinking about doing
this and i went up there and i said
something and i really meant it and my
body was like
i can't explain this to you yeah it's so
silly to say out loud
but it's
people will resonate to it when it's
real and when it's acted it doesn't you
could do it the exact it could the
motion could look the same your eyes
look the same but there's something
about the energy
that people know they know if it's real
or not yeah people are like you said
incredible bullshit detectives 100
percent i'll go on a stage and if i'm
not in the right headspace to be real it
won't be a good show if i'm real then
it's a good show as simple as that let's
go through the song
like i said great opener
so you had this in your mind this
landscape yeah yeah
[Music]
the beat was first on this
what about the first and the second and
third like first things first seconds
the first line i wrote was first things
first second i don't know why it just
was like and then i was like oh that
principle of you know
great line don't
second things second don't you tell me
what you think that i could be
i'm the one at the sale i'm the master
of my seat i'm the master of my seat dad
had that in his office he had this um
saying
uh that was something about the sailor
and being the master of a sea that i
always loved
there you go simple statement yeah zero
cringing it
it's so powerful
that's so simple
i'm the master of my this whole song is
just
trivial
but
uh in terms of
lyrically but extremely powerful and
original unique sounding something about
the words just even you don't have to
actually sing them you just read them
and then and then raw i was broken from
a young age tucked myself into the
masses writing my poems for the few that
looked at me too
took to me shaking me feeling me singing
from the heartache from the pain taking
my message from the thing i can't why am
i reciting your words to you but the the
the the percussionist throughout it the
uh and and that that was there
percussion is almost in the lyrics yeah
and i'm a very percussive singer because
uh i was a drummer first before i
i think
same with dave grohl
probably a similar thing which is i
think in percussive
uh sense a lot when i'm writing because
i and i also was
before i could
play an instrument i would beatbox and i
think michael jackson did this too
actually i've heard in the studio that
he was very similar but a lot of what i
do is
percussive
um because my brain thinks in it
percussively first
a little more because it's almost like a
drama
and then you lay words on that
[Music]
it's all building to the chorus
[Applause]
[Music]
what about the word pain
when did that come to you
um
pain you made me you made me a believer
yeah i just the idea of um
i just wanted to i
i really one of the things that a lot of
the songs that i like
i like divisiveness
for instance not always but there's
times where i want someone to hear a
song and i want them to either love it
or hate it i really don't want them to
be in the middle ground a lot of the
songs that
like a lot of my favorite songs
are divisive songs
um and
so for instance with pain i wanna i want
you to hear that and almost like
it's like whoa you know what i mean it's
it's uh it's something either somebody's
gonna hear and they'll be like man i
just don't want to hear that like that
or it's like oh i felt that so deeply
when he said that in that way because it
sounded like this and
and when you think of the word pain it's
like that's that's a
that's a
when i at least for me when i hear that
word i it carries a lot of weight
carries a lot of weight so i wanted to
sing it with a lot of weight
and to come into that chorus with like
like it's a striking
moment
um and i'm also a tenor singing as sorry
i'm a baritone singing as a tenor
so that's where that natural
like gruffness comes from as i'm singing
out of my range really up in my head
voice and it carries a lot of weight
with it because of the baritone
i can ask you a specific sort of the the
pause before the pain
it's really interesting because like a
double
[Applause]
what is that is that how much work does
that take to get that right that's
that's incredible because it's like a
so so you're you're kind of seeing the
beauty through the
and then that whatever that sound is the
right the bass being rolled off yeah
yeah yeah i i actually when i first uh
was approaching the chorus it was
actually see
took him and finally missing the heart
egg from the pain taking my message from
the vein speaking my lesson from the man
seeing the beauty through the uh seeing
the beauty through the pain you made me
uh you like it came in on one i'm not
seeing it right right now but it it did
not wait yeah and
it felt
like it didn't hit in the way that it
was supposed to hit because
the the uh you predict that right you're
like you're waiting to see the beauty
through the pain you made me uh right it
was yeah the beauty through the pain you
made me made me
so i wanted to feel a little more like
striking like again it's like that thing
that makes you kind of do this a little
bit you're like huh but once you hear it
a few times you're like ah ah and you
predict you know what i mean it's like
i'd rather someone hear our song the
first time be confused by it
so they play it the second time and then
they're like oh okay you know what i
mean like i really don't want
you know
i'd rather turn some people off along
the way and then the people who come
along for you are gonna feel more
committed i think
it's just an interesting like
it feels gutsy to insert silence
you know yeah that's what makes it you
know it's like the greatest speakers of
all time are like and i told you
right
you would know
you're like oh yeah what is that yeah
that's so interesting to do that just at
the right time
and then pain
right uh man this is it's a it's a
brilliant song did you know it was a
good song when you when you wrote it
out of the thousands of songs you've
written you know i it's always the same
thing for me which is like oh listen if
i want to listen to the song
and i want to listen to it a lot of
times than than those are the songs we
put out and i and i only want to listen
to the songs that make me feel something
whether or not it's like our single that
did the very worst of all our singles
was the song that i wanted to listen to
the least but it made the most sense as
a single which was all the wrong reason
to choose it right it was this it was a
i bet my life is the single off our
second album
and that song was originally written it
was just a guitar and a vocal and it was
very just quiet and laid back
and we were like well let's try to dial
it up let's try to produce it and we
overproduced that song we self-produced
it as a band and we over produced
and
that song i mean it's it did good you
know in terms of a song but for us it
did not do good um compared to our other
songs and i've really looked back at
that and learned a lesson from that it's
like i don't want to listen to the song
that's a sign already if you don't want
to listen to your own song
it's probably not a good song yeah um
you you said your dad
um
elsewhere and today just
said that your dad early on was
a kind of uh
the early rick rubin
so when you were starting out he was um
he gave you feedback he listened
um what did you learn about music about
life from your dad
my dad is a really quiet
farm grew up on a farm
very humble
um
i think he starts every sentence by
saying
this is just my two cents pretty much
you know i mean it's like like take it
or leave it like you know what i mean
he's that that kind of a sense like
there's humility in everything and it's
real for him it's not like
false humility he really i really feel
like when he's saying things he really
is like maybe this isn't any worth to
you son and he means it but here it is
and it's always gold and i'm like wow
dad that's incredible you know
so what in those early days if you like
so you were like 12 or something like
that like starting to write 12. i wasn't
showing my music to anyone i started
writing right when i was 12 and i
probably wrote for at least let's say
six months or something and i'd written
probably i don't know like
a lot of songs during that what was the
topic by the way love it was all sad no
the first song i ever wrote went
[Music]
all by himself
no other one around
and he stood all alone
when would he be found
did he want company
or was he fine on his own
everyone needs a friend
so why was he all
you know days like but i was like a 12
year old with
i just felt
like depressed for the first time and i
was
and i just was like he discovered the
blues as the 12th yeah right right it
really was like my sense of the blues at
that time for sure like bad version of
the blues but it was like 12 year old
kid with a bunch of acne and like i just
like i hated going to school i felt like
that i i just had not found myself
that's like a great song by the way but
anyway i wanted to keep looking i forgot
i was
i don't know about that but
um yeah what was your dad at which point
did you begin to share it with your dad
a lot of the songs i wrote in the
beginning were very much like bobby
mcferrin like that because we are our
mic was in a part of the house where i
couldn't bring over the piano and the
only instrument i played at the time was
the piano
so i would do everything with my voice
but then i started teaching myself the
guitar
in those in the beginning like six month
period just watching my brothers play in
their garage bands in the in the
basement and then i started to write
songs a little more like enya vibes like
stack my voice like 20 30 times and like
enya meets like jared which is who my
dad would listen to a lot john john
michael jarvis incredible synth genius
but anyway so
i finally got my my like
gall up enough to show it to my dad one
day after work and i got very little of
my dad because there were nine kids and
he worked from 8 a.m till 6 p.m we'll
come home very tired and here's nine
kids that are like dad you know and
you're the young one you're not you're
just gonna miss i was in the middle kind
of too so it's even you know middle
child thing
but i sat him down i was like hey dad i
just want to like can i show you a song
and he was like oh you know he didn't
know i was writing anything and i showed
it to him and he listened
and he took it off and he really looked
at me and was like
that was really good he was like i real
i thought and this when you said this it
made me feel this he was like and that
did it i probably would have given up
music like i look back that was a very
pivotal moment for me i was like in a
place where i was like is this good bad
i don't know maybe it's so embarrassing
and terrible and i was already writing
lyrics that were a little like overly
metaphorical to hide that i was dealing
with faith crisis because i thought okay
i'm gonna show this to dad i don't want
my dad to know i'm like questioning the
truthfulness of joseph smith
so i'm not gonna be like
it's joseph smith a real prophet is
mormonism true i don't really know like
you know i was like writing way overly
metaphorical but because my dad really
validated it and he was a no bullshit
person so i knew when my dad said that i
was like you know what at least my dad
really actually thinks this is cool
and i really trusted my dad's taste and
and
thought everything he listened to was
cool so i was like wow
i keep doing this and i just showed it
to my dad for years and years and still
to this day i send every song to my dad
so he underneath it with the feedback is
always like oh i like this idea like
this it's just a positive like a not
always positive no but like underneath
it do you sense the positivity because i
think always
never never mean
never malicious
uh you know there's like there's two
types of criticism there's like
criticism that's just like you're
looking to be hurtful to someone and
then there's criticism that's like
really important for art
it's the type of criticism that's like
you see the value and what's happening
and if it's honest then you can you
maybe communicate with that person like
i s i see what you're trying to do with
that you know it's not even like you
have to say that or whatever like butter
it up but it's like
my dad would just give me the this
honest criticism that would be like
you know
it certainly wasn't always good but i
knew it was always well-intentioned i
guess that's that's how i would say so
you mentioned made me re-listen to it
i'm a big fan of cass stevens you made
me re-listen to father and son
i'd probably all sons have issues
to work through with their fathers
this is and you said that you connect
with this song in particular i think uh
so you're a father now
uh what is it about the song that
connects with you for people let me let
me play it let me play a little bit
people should educate themselves on cat
stevens oh my gosh right in the piece
the best the best pizza right on the v
street
you think this is a hopeful a sad song
i hear it was hopeful i heard is a
loving father saying just what his son
needs to hear it's not time to make a
change
just relax take it easy
[Music]
your fault
there's so much you have it's like that
calm wisdom
yeah this time it wise if you want you
can marry look at me
i am old but i'm happy and just the way
says i like that should be a corny line
but it's not corny at all it's like
you are now
look at me i'm older but i'm happy
to become
when you found
something going on yeah i mean the the
simplicity there and it yeah but it's
such a contrast with um
what's his name um
harry chapman with the cats in the
cradle
uh which is like
the sadness of
so this feels like there's a
a wise calm
connection between father and son right
with uh with casting the cradle i don't
know if you remember that song um
he learned to walk while i was away and
he was talking
before i knew it and as he grew he'd say
i'm going to be like you dad you know
i'm going to be like you and the idea of
that song is
that he does become like his dad
which is funny not something you said
but in a different way you become too
busy to make that connection his dad was
too busy making connection with his son
in a in a not a dramatic way in a very
kind of calm not strong way like you
don't right you just don't have time
uh you're you're busy at work you're it
for the family and so on there's
connection but you don't really get to
form that like depth of connection
and
then the father when uh when the son
shows up from college and all that kind
of stuff he doesn't spend any time with
the father he
all that and just the calm sadness of
that that we
we live we can live parallel lives and
never quite connect
and there is a little bit of that in
father and son with cat stevens too you
know like when this when the sun is
saying um
from the moment that i could talk i was
ordered to listen yeah i always i always
remember listening to that line feeling
like
that really moved me but the beauty of
that song is it shows
it's kind of like the theme of what i
feel like we've talked about since the
second you got here which is something i
really like i don't know why it's such
an important theme in my life right now
but
the duality
of just understanding that you don't
understand someone else's situation
and there's truth to both sides
like there's truth to what the father is
saying to the son he's like saying these
things and he's like i'm looking out for
you i love you
take your time with these things if you
want to get married you can like these
things will bring up and then the son
saying listen like i i want to pave my
own path i want to do this like why are
you telling me this like
the son's not wrong because there's a
lot of parents who tell their kids what
to do and they're wrong
and that you know what i mean like
and they don't let the kid form the path
that they need to
but should you not be a parent like you
know there's just two yeah there's a
there's a thing it is annoying when
you're older
you get you get to see people do all the
same things you could say well
this is
um this is a phase
and you'll see that this actually will
um end up in this way you can like
predict how the life unrolls and it's
very annoying for young people to hear
especially because it's probably going
to be true it's like no it's not going
to be like this
no i'm going to be different but then
you become that person but that doesn't
mean they also
let them live that life right let them
make the mistakes
uh but they're not mistakes actually
they're
they're like
beautiful deviations from the
from the path that they end up on and
those those those make the path
um
do you have
advice for young folks today you've had
like an incredible
dark journey
and a successful one
a loving one
and one of the most successful
artists in the world
is there advice you can give to young
people today that would like to find
themselves to that way especially if
they're struggling i thought you said
device at first and i was like honestly
i feel like that device is not helping
like maybe everybody should get away
throw away their devices um advice
um
i would just say like what i emphasize
to my kids is
i really really want my kids to just
learn to love himself
it's it's easier said than done
it's really easy to pick on yourself in
life
it's really easy to look in the mirror
and wish you looked different
wish you were more successful like that
person over there
wish that
you know wish a lot of things
and
people that i see that really succeed at
life really succeed truly and that
doesn't mean they're making money
necessarily or they're succeeding and
you know they're talking to a lot of
people like their success success to me
is like
happy
and
real they have real self-love you meet
you know when you meet someone you meet
rick for instance you meet rick rubin
rick has a calmness about him and it's
funny because everybody sees him as this
like
zen master like
rick is just a really
loving person who also loves himself and
has self-confidence because you just see
it and it resonates and that's why he
draws people and that's why he's so
great in the studio because you know his
intentions always as an artist when a
producer comes in you're like whoa whoa
what are your intentions what are you
trying to do are you trying to get a hit
out of me for the label or you're trying
to make me something are you trying to
like make me this so you can prove this
about yourself like there's a lot in
that dynamic and the reason that rick is
so good is because
you know his intentions
and his intentions come because rick has
that self-love so for me
find the things about yourself because
they're there
that you love
and really focus in on them and it's not
selfish like i feel like i was brought
up in a family too where it was like
never look inward like be selfless like
serve serve serve which by the way i'm
is a true principle of life i think you
love yourself more when you serve more i
think that's
really evident in life
but also spend time doing the things
that make you happy take time every day
to go on that walk that you need to go
on listen to that book tape that you
need to listen to like for me that's
something i need i know if i do that i'm
going to be a better dad because i did i
did i gave myself some some love back in
life
and uh and i just forgive yourself i
think forgive yourself because everybody
messes up everybody hurts others
everybody says unkind words at times
everybody
everybody fails all the time and if you
think that you're going to not
you're wrong and you're eventually going
to and you're either going to punish
yourself for it every day and be a
lesser version of what you could be
or you're going to forgive yourself for
it
and if you've learned that that's not
something you want then try not to do it
again if you do it again then and you're
probably going to do it again whatever
that is you're gonna you're gonna gossip
about that person you're gonna feel bad
because then you gossiped about someone
like is there something you could say in
terms of self-love
is there a role for being critical and
you're like that that those demons of
like self-criticism do you need a little
bit of that tom waits talks about i like
my town with a little drop of poison
right you need a little poison
or is it is that silly or romantic no i
mean it isn't look
my my biggest thing in life this
has been like the thing that i've worked
on the hardest for the last few years
is to not be overly critical
um
[Music]
and
to let go of control
i i think um
it's really easy to kill an artist
it's really easy to kill an artist like
if my dad would have sat down with me
that day
and even if he would have just sat down
and been like
good job son okay it's not silly right
like i don't i didn't not everybody has
a dad who's gonna ever do something or
put in the time or whatever
but
that would that might have altered
everything for me
like my dad taking the extra time to
just give me a thoughtful response
opposed to kids know kids know when
you're when you're just like trying to
get out of the room or whatever i knew
he wasn't
and that did a lot so yeah
but is that is that a huge
is not what makes the artist it's the
fragility of it
that
like uh would you have it any other way
no no i i agree with you i think that
that's what
that uh
that's the beauty of art but i think
also on the same token it's like
i went to i went to music cares recently
which is a charity for musicians that
are down on their luck that maybe were
successful at one point or i've never
been successful and they can't build and
pay the bills on this charity
contributes money to these artists
aspiring artists or artists who've had
drug issues and like there's a lot that
they do but and there was a statistic
that they told it was staggering to me
which is i think it was 75 percent
of artists musicians
say they struggle with severe depression
that's really high i don't know what the
national average is
but i would guess that that's higher
than national average per occupation
so i just think
there's a tricky balance
there's a tricky balance in
in art um
so yeah of course
like it's it's a necessary thing the
fragility of it all
but
um yeah i i wonder because i'm extremely
self-critical and i sometimes ask myself
the question
i've romanticized it or rather
i've learned to be
for it to be productive to channel into
productivity
but i i wonder
if there's better ways to do that and i
also wonder if it's eventually the thing
that destroys me like if long term
if it's a healthy thing it might be
useful
when you're in sort of
actively
fighting the battles of the day the for
me it's engineering challenges and all
that kind of stuff right but then when
you're sitting back
and enjoying life with family and so on
is that going to be
like do you need to find that self-love
like ability to kind of
um
silence the voice of criticism in your
head you know what i i really there's a
you're making a good point and i think
that the middle ground
is you need
you need self-doubt
to push you to be better
i do believe that like
for instance if i if i believed
i've had my like when you're like is
there a song on there that you think is
genius if i think i've written a genius
song ever i think i'd probably stop
i think i'd be like you know what
i did it i wrote um
uh what's that perfect song
[Laughter]
imagine imagine yet okay if i'd written
imagine i'd probably be like
that's it did it all right perfect song
has been written that's the best thing
i'll ever do yeah
so the fact that
that there is
like
self-criticism and criticism outside i
think is necessary 100 100 for sure it
pushes you it pushes you it pushes you
it's just finding
the right middle ground for that young
aspiring artist to also not feel
squashed and to be heard
and to love just not even to feel squash
just to love themself
so that when they're in the room playing
the song
they'll believe it because
they believe themselves they love
themselves enough that they believe it
and then they'll do a great and then the
song will come out great and they'll do
a great performance
i i have to ask
it's one of the
very interesting aspects of your life of
of the of the way you put love out there
in the world uh what is at the core of
your support for the lgbt community
a couple things so one
growing up in
from a young age in the artist community
a lot of my closest friends were lgbtq
starting in middle school
um
[Music]
and
i think a lot of the best artists in the
world are lgbtq and that's just no it's
not a secret like it's just it's like
the artist community is filled with lots
of lgbtq people
so
i think being raised in that community
in that my friends
struggled with their faith and their
sexuality
really
opened up my eyes
to
how
incredibly hard that path is
for instance okay when i was in high
school
there was someone who went in front of
who was lgbtq and was mormon and felt
like there was not a place for them in
the church
uh they felt like the past you know when
when you're being told that that's evil
and you believe it because you believe
in your faith
and you feel like it's unchangeable
you're putting a kid in a situation
where there's really no good resolution
it's either be alone for the rest of
your life
or marry outside your sexual preference
which i don't want to marry a man like
if i was forced to marry a man i'm like
i don't want to
be married to a man
because i'm heterosexual
so you're forcing a kid into a situation
where
it's very dangerous long story short
this kid went in front of the las vegas
mormon temple and shot himself killed
himself
that impacted our community like
and
not just that but it was like severe
bullying to to lgbtq kids in the 90s it
was especially different like
they're still bowling don't get me wrong
but man like bullying in school i don't
really know actually what it's like in
schools now maybe the bowling's just as
bad as it was in the 90s but
there was like it was
like i would hear
all the time like the f slur being slung
out at people who were lgbtq
all the time
and i wasn't even lgbtq so
i
you know it's just seeing that
i think that every
um
[Music]
any social justice issue
takes all sides
it takes all pieces of the puzzle if
only the pieces of the puzzle
contributed are from the side that is
affected i don't believe that we'll ever
have resolution we're doing a shit job
and we need to do better
and that's just uh
that's that's the reality of it so
that's part of the reason i also have
family who's lgbtq and and it's just
something that's been part of my
my path and i i feel like i'm i'm a big
believer and take the path that is
presented to you and this was just
something that came up in my life a lot
when i met my wife she was living with
her two best friends who are lgbtq
who really didn't want her to marry me
because i was mormon and at the time it
was prop 8 which was mormons were
fighting against
lgbt gay marriage
and so
that then they didn't come to our
wedding and that really broke my wife's
heart um so it was just like
because mormonism represented everything
that that was against um
their community
so so you felt you had to say something
yeah i felt like by not saying anything
yeah i was saying everything i felt like
by not speaking up
and being like hey dan reynolds is
mormon singer here's this new band magic
dragons and they're mormons it was like
okay well what do mormons represent they
represent prop 8. what does prop 8
represent bigotry towards
the lgbtq community so what do i do okay
i can speak in every interview and be
like well that's not me i don't believe
that too
or i could just be more active about it
and especially when it's affecting my
family and friends throughout my entire
life it was like all right
this seems like a path that you need to
go down
so
long story short is a path that just
presented itself through through things
in my life so just on that topic
so religion and god give a lot of
meaning to a lot of people it gives a
tradition that brings people
together
um
across the generations but it also can
hurt people
what do you uh make about that tension
so a source of meaning but also a source
of pain for people
the reality is at least to me again this
is just my reality
i feel like i'm doing my dad's thing
every time i'm talking to i'm like i
don't really know my two cents here's my
two sets you have become your father
yeah um
the reality and it's my reality and it
is the reality for sure
there's i think that
religion has brought a lot of hurt and
pain to a lot of people
absolutely it has that i don't think
anybody can dispute that on it on either
side
um
whether it's war
um you know whether it's
slaughtering of entire peoples like it's
there's been a lot of pain and suffering
that has come from religion
um
so my little thing that has been hard
for me is a faith crisis right i had
religion and then i i lost and then i
had nothing so that's for me i was like
well religion did that to me right like
but then at one point it's kind of like
how much of my life am i just gonna
complain about like being raised mormon
or being depressed like you know as i
get older i'm like okay
so what like okay it's really hurt me
but
were there any good things that came out
of mormonism well yeah there's a lot of
good things that have come to my family
through mormonism
closeness we're really really close
mormon culture is that you live together
forever right the teaching is that
you're in your families are forever we
die and then we go to heaven together
and we're together forever my family
really believes that principle all of
them do
and that instills a certain way of
living that's kind of beautiful
even if it's naivety
there's something kind of beautiful
about
believing that we're forming these bonds
together as a family and that like we're
gonna be together forever it brings a
lot of comfort to a kid too when i was
little i was like wow
it's gonna be okay if i die because i
get to see my mom again you know i mean
i like i really believe that
is the right answer that you tell that
kid
actually when you die you're not gonna
see your mom again
maybe it might be i don't know and
everybody's gonna anybody who has a kid
is gonna face that
that moment i've already faced it where
you sit down and my kid was like hey dad
when you die am i gonna see you again
that was actually a really hard moment
for me because i was suddenly faced with
okay do i give the answer that i thought
was bullshit or do i give the answer of
what i think it is or do i give the real
answer which is i don't know
and that's what i chose which is a
father that's not always the easiest
answer because your kid it's a wonderful
thing that you feel like you can give
your kid the comfort of like hey your
parents are going to take care of
everything we know everything we've been
around my kids always like are you the
strongest i'm like yeah i am the
strongest we're stronger than everybody
yeah everybody
so
when you're faced with that moment it's
like it kind of sucks to tell your kid
like you know what
i don't know if you're gonna see me
after i die
but that but i hope that's why i said i
was like i don't know but but i hope i
really hope because that would be
awesome if we can hang out forever
and if there's any way for it to happen
i'll make it happen you know what i mean
that's kind of what my answer was
so long story short
sorry i know that i'm being lengthy on
this
is there like what is my thought on
religion it just is it's gonna it's been
here forever it's coping it maybe it's i
can't say whether it's true or false how
the hell am i supposed to know
i mean like i've lived 34 years on this
planet a lot of people have been around
a lot longer than me and they really
believe very deeply and a lot of them
are smarter than me you know what i mean
like i look at my older brothers for
instance who are very practicing mormons
these guys are hyper intelligent my my
younger sister hyper intelligent all of
them start smarter than me they all
believe it still so what am i supposed
to say
well you're all stupid you know what i
mean like you're all wrong i don't know
like maybe it's the south park episode
where everybody dies and then they're
like
well the right answer was mormonism
oh
i mean like
mormon mormons love that moment in south
park they're like hey that day may come
that day they come
yes so maybe maybe i don't know is the
honest answer for everybody around the
table uh but the biggest
question for which the idea knows is the
right answer is uh
what's the meaning of this whole thing
what's the meaning of life
now you're not allowed to say i don't
know okay
um you can
be just like your dad and say let me
just give my two cents
take it for you whatever it's worth take
it or leave it it's probably worth
nothing
piddle on the ground
um
uh do you i mean what why are we here is
it
it's just
busily creating all these kinds of
things
worrying about things having kids
i
my purpose at least right now
is
to wake up
and try to
bring light love to the world
light love to myself
and have integrity
that's
my purpose
the ultimate purpose of life
that i guess that's my ultimate purpose
of life i i i don't know what happens
when i die
ayahuasca gave me some sense that
there's more to be known
i'm sure there are other things in life
that would give me that that i'm and i'm
lurking i'm looking for it i'm a seeker
like i'm
i'm always looking for the next
something to give me hope in something
more even if so i could just not
bullshit my kids when they asked me that
question and be like you know what
i really don't know i i want to not know
more
if that makes sense i don't want to like
i want to see things that make me
confused
that make me question what i already
knew like i
am
like
when i meet an atheist who comes up to
me and they're like atheism atheism
atheism
it's just as laughable to me as when i
meet the mormon who comes up and they're
like mormonism mormonism mormonism i'm
like
how do how do anyone how do you guys
know that like
like
and you know
so you feel like you're doing some
through all your travels to all the
people you meet you feel like you're
still keeping your eyes open and your
heart open to
sort of discover
discover something new like the
ayahuasca experience
that there might be there might be
deeper truths out there
yeah and and i want to find them and i
want to surround myself with people who
are just looking for it i'm not i'm not
interested in people who are just
looking to point fingers at each like i
life is so short i'm looking for it's
one of the reasons that i want to meet
with you is i was like wow
lex really seems like he's on a journey
to find truth and that humility for me
is same thing with rick it drew me to
rick it was like i really i i see that
and i identify with it and that's what
i'm looking for there's the final song
on our record our new record that's
coming out
the chorus goes um
and this is like the this is my best
answer to white to what you're asking
um
the course goes
take it easy on me
i need some lullaby
they tell me heaven's just a lie well
i'm not surprised tell me that you know
no you don't yeah you're just like me
can we just hope for the best take it
easy
so that's it for me it's like i'm in a
place like where i'm like
i don't know
tell me you know i don't i'm not gonna
believe you maybe you do i'm not gonna
believe it but
like just be easier on each other and
like try to find truth wherever it may
lie but above all know that we don't
know jack shit
i think that's the mic drop moment dan
thank you so much you're an incredible
human i love that you share with the
world
the darkness
of your mind of your life experience and
the in the beautiful light that you've
shown to the world so it's a huge honor
and thank you for spending your valuable
time good luck on the tour thanks man
thanks for having me
thanks for listening to this
conversation with dan reynolds to
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let me leave you with some words from
aldous huxley
after silence that which comes nearest
to expressing the inexpressible
is music
thank you for listening and hope to see
you next time