Kind: captions
Language: en
if you get into a sauna the way I just
described not the two hours a day but 30
minutes twice a week or three times per
week you reduce the likelihood of dying
of a cardiovascular event by
27% if you do it four or more times per
week you reduce the probability of Dying
by 50% is there any scientific evidence
that being naked is beneficial in the
sauna well in certain context it leads
to um child birth okay well I'll have to
read up on that I think Dorothy Parker
said uh the cure for boredom is
curiosity there is no cure for
curiosity the following is a
conversation with Andrew huberman his
third time on this podcast he's a
brilliant neuroscientist at Stanford
University and the host of one of the
best the best if you ask me health and
science podcast in the world called
huberman Lab podcast check him out on
Instagram Twitter and YouTube most
importantly and Drew is a great human
being and has quickly become a great
friend this is leex Freedman podcast to
support it please check out our sponsors
in the description and now dear friends
here's Andrew
huberman we meet again my friend uh we
should talk on each other's podcast once
a year I think we should make a deal I
was just talking to the guys this is
show called Lou I don't know if you know
it and yeah with Louis CK and there's
this thing called Bang Bang which people
that probably watching know exactly what
I'm talking about it's this worst
possible thing you can do in terms of
meals which is you go to a restaurant do
a full meal and then go to another
restaurant and do a full meal and you P
you exactly so they go Mexican Italian
Sushi Pizza barbecue IHOP that that one
is disgusting this kind of thing reminds
me of the joy of food last time we were
hanging out we went we went to see Jo do
comedy and then we went to eat Russian
food yeah and it was a
particularly fun experience to go to a
Russian restaurant I was the only person
there that didn't speak Russian yeah and
eat Russian food with you and um because
I felt walking in they they trusted you
they didn't trust me yeah the funny
thing about the the people there they
were talking to you in Russian and then
they refused to sort of uh switch to
English even though they do you speak no
Russian this is Russian house in Austin
by the way uh anyway what by way of
question what's the worst or or the best
depending on your perspective cheap meal
let's call it a pigging out meal but it
could be a cheap meal uh that you've
ever had or you want to have that's like
on the bucket list or something that's
in the past like where you did the
something like a bang bang which is like
you're talking about multiple thousands
of
calories that you just feel horrible
about yourself but you still keep eating
cuz it's delicious but also great
company something about the atmosphere
is just right screw the diet screw all
the things you know just like you should
be doing but just throw it all out the
window I've done that several times yeah
I don't do this anymore but um the
entire time I was a post talk so five
years and the entire time I was a pre-
tenured professor so five years so I
basically followed the uh Tim Ferris
slow carb diet which is you know people
can look it up but it worked really well
it was
basically some you know like good animal
proteins you know fish and meat and
things like that slow carb slow carb
because like low glycemic stuff is
mostly lentils and beans and and things
and vegetables no no Dairy no um anyway
but then one pasta in there sorry to
interrupt no no pasta so it wasn't low
carbet it was low glycemic carb and I
did that and it worked terrifically well
just for energy levels cuz I want to be
able to train and work and then one day
a week you're supposed to go
full cheat day and so I would do what
used to be 12 hours but then it became
24 you know you start to redefine what
the day is um and I would and that was
when Costello was pretty young and we
would do it together so I would get
pizzas and croissants and donuts and I
would just do the full thing and by the
end of the day you don't want to look at
an item of food you're just repulsed by
food the only modification I made was
the next day I would fast completely
just to avoid the gastric distress of
eating anything and um so I would do
them on Sundays and then Mondays I'd
fast all day and then by Tuesday I felt
pretty good again but Sunday and Monday
or you just feel like you're sliding
down the slope of just blood sugar
disaster terrible idea or a good idea
you know at the time I enjoyed it I love
donuts croissants all that kind of stuff
what's interesting is after stopping
that whole protocol now I just try and
eat well each day it's really a protocol
now I basically I do a pseudo
intermittent fasting I don't not really
strict but I'll start eating around
11:00 eat my first meal around 11:00 I
usually train in the morning eat my last
bite of food somewhere around 8 or 9 and
I'm not super strict I might have some
berries or something late at night three
meals two meals two two two meals and
then maybe a little bit of snacking on
some nuts or something in the middle
ever fast 24 hours never done a long
fast except when I was doing the days
and then um and actually there were a
couple different ways to do chej that
were fun like if you were in a new city
you could try all the restaurants that
you wanted yeah and I think Tim and our
mutual friend John romanello did a I
think it was like a cheat Day marathon
where they did you know marathon's 26.3
miles they went to 26.3 different
locations in New York they put it on a
map and I never took it to that extreme
but wa wait over how many days one day
that was their Che just cuz they were
you know just a little bit of something
at each Place yeah exactly I mean there
are things that guys do in their 30s
that you just shouldn't do in your 40s I
can say that cuz I'm in my 40s and uh
now I just try and eat well most days
and what's interesting is about 12 to 14
months ago I completely lost all
appetite for sweets I don't know what
happened I still love Savory food so
meat and butter and cheese uh and I love
vegetables too I love fruit also but
lost all appetite so if you put a
doughnut in front of me or ice cream or
something like I just it's it's almost
aversive to me and I don't know what
happened I don't know what changed it's
probably a scientific explanation sure
is it has to do make neur dementia
the sugar the uh the desire for that
Rush maybe is gone from your uh from
your soul so what was the most delicious
things croissant Donuts what what is
there a thing that um there's a place in
uh Portland I don't know if it's still
open called little te's Bakery and they
have croissants that easily rival the
croissants in Paris people make a lot of
the the pastry in Paris but it's really
the bread in Paris that's amazing we
lived there when I was a kid and we did
a sabatical there and you know there
they do the baguette morning bake and
afternoon bake and there's nothing like
the bread in Paris um or the people you
know and but if you're in the if you're
in the Pacific Northwest you know you
can find amazing croissants there what
do you do with the croissant what do you
do with the bread butter or is it just I
actually used to I don't eat them
anymore I don't have much of an appetite
for them even though they're not a sweet
food but um I'm always putting butter on
the croissant butter on the butter
croissant no Jam I would never I would
never adulterate my croissant I I have
to actually be honest about this cuz
people talk about steak and they they
talk about bread with the butter I feel
like butter is cheating I feel like
you're disrespecting the fundamental
food by adding butter cuz butter it's
like it's like it's like a elite version
of ketchup you're well there we diverge
because for me bread is just a vehicle
for
butter a cracker is just a vehicle for
cheese oh so that's just the the cracker
and the bread is just texture it's just
that people look at you funny if you if
you just eat the butter straight which
occasionally I do I got it but so I put
a little piece of bread underneath it
not because I'm low carb strictly low
carb but just because otherwise you get
some funny looks that's like pasta is is
a vehicle for pasta sauce it's
interesting but like Indian non breed
you have uh you have the bread i' I I've
had a lot of sou searching on which part
of Indian is brings me so much joy is it
the bread or is it all the sauces that
come with the bread well there we
diverge again because for for whatever
reason and no disrespect to anyone but
Indian food doesn't appeal to me well
you're a lucky man because the the
number of calories in that food it
sneaks like non breed I don't know how
non bread is made but I think it's just
soaked in oil and it just very intensely
like the density of calories is very
very high for me barbecue I would say is
probably the that's good anytime I'm in
Austin I start thinking about barbecue I
do love you know I do love meat my dad's
Argentine I mean I love steak I love
meat I mean Argentina chorizo sausage is
an appetizer before you have steak so
it's meat on top of meat and it's not
just you know it's not just the men
right you see women sometimes very
petite women eating steaks that are
bigger than their the their skull size
you know slowly they eat very slowly
there and they all eat dessert too which
is interesting and they generally do the
sort of one meal per day and do that
kind of reflexively that's how I think
about it cuz I often eat one meal a day
especially when I'm traveling it feels
like a cheap meal because it allows it
gives you a bit of more freedom to just
lose yourself in the quantity of the
food I did the 3-day fast and I ate uh
chicken breast like literally chicken
breast with nothing else just grilled
and it was the most delicious piece of
meat I've ever eaten and that uh and
that gives you the problem is when you
fast for 3 days you really can't pig out
you really shouldn't well your stomach
will shrink in siid already your gut
microbiome is almost completely depleted
by fasting a lot of people think oh
cleanses and fasts are great for the
microbiome they quash your microbiome
however when you start eating again the
microbiome comes back better than it was
before your fast for people who don't
know Sergey and Todd are on the call
they're kind of pulling stuff up they
just pulled up Phelps with the I forget
how many calories he was eating 10,000
you know what's interesting there's some
some cool physiology around this the
reason he needed to eat so much is not
that he was burning that many calories
in pure movement it's that when you do
exercise in water even if it's warm
water the heat transfer in water is
greater so you burn far more calories
and again here I I'm admittedly lifting
that from a knowledge that was passed on
to me by Tim Ferris I did so but I
checked it out and it's absolutely true
so if you exercise in water even if it's
not really cold water your caloric needs
go way up which is why you get out of
the pool and you're often really hungry
and for fans of the Hub Lab podcast and
and if you're not a fan what what what
are you doing with your life uh you
would probably chuckle at the fact that
uh Andrew just cited his sources even on
that
statement cuz you're so good at I don't
know how your memory works but um the
only person whose memory is is better
than Joe Rogan is yours but my
colleagues joke um you know Pub Med sort
of Scrolls through through my through my
mind um also in science as you know
attribution is so baked into what we do
and um and I think that it's interesting
because now spending a lot of time on
social media media attribution is not as
common and um but in Academia you learn
really early on that if you give a talk
about your data and you site all these
amazing sources all it does is make you
look better right whereas in social
media and elsewhere in the business
sector it's almost like citing other
people people feel as if it's going to
take away some of the credit all it does
is place you in the company of people
that do really nice work so I have trem
and I have genuine and tremendous
respect for Tim he's been about 10 years
ahead on a huge number of health related
things and other things extremely kind
person very thoughtful person so it's
also just a pleasure to shine light on
other people right yeah yeah well I
actually to push back I I know there's a
culture of if you you write a paper
standing on the shoulders of giants is a
powerful thing but there's also a
culture of not giving credit to the
strongest idea in your paper and instead
say it's kind of or imply that it's
original there is a culture of kind of
not celebrating others I think people
get most competitive in all walks of
life but especially in science when
they're as the closer they get in the
exact of the thing they work on and so
there's this dance you know there's a
few researchers in each of the
individual little things that you work
on if you're studying a particular kind
of ant you know that other asshole that
also is studying that particular ant and
then you're not going to often give
credit for the brilliant ideas that that
other researchers doing and I think one
of the things you've discovered and just
is part of your nature and which is why
it's it's really great that you've uh
have an audience and you inspire others
to do the same you celebrate that other
ant studer it's great and you everybody
wins it raised all boats but that
initial instinct to be like uh what is
it in Borat like my neighbor my neighbor
gets a a toaster I get a bigger toaster
that yeah that mindset do you know it's
not that I'm not not competitive in
certain domains but um yeah I get great
pleasure from um sharing things that I
find and um I think that you know at the
end of the day you're as strong as your
community and you can build a wonderful
Community just by pointing out things
that you love like these are all just
loves I see a paper and I love it only
rarely do I think a I wish we had done
that I usually think fantastic now I can
just focus on something else CU they
checked off that box
and by the way you mentioned Pub Med and
and barbecue I I should mention that I
got a chance to hang out with uh Rick
Rubin thanks to you he's a friend of
yours and you made the connection that
was a huge gift to my spirit I guess
he's a truly truly special human being
and the there's a lot I could say about
why he's a special human being I'd love
to learn how you met him but I should
ALS just mention on the pub Med
thing it was so interesting talking to
him about
music and uh both on the podcast
and privately and just listening to
music together because when you mention
a song he does this thing where he like
closes his eyes and he finds that song
in the album that we're talking about
and he steps through the album you could
you could see the brain like stepping
through individual songs to find that
song in the album and there's that kind
of lookup process and then he puts
himself mentally in that space of like
okay this is uh you know whatever the
album is and not just the ones he
produced but all of it he's an
encyclopedia of of music and it's so
interesting it also uh the thing I
really love about him something like a
calmness that radiates from him that
it's okay to close your eyes and place
yourself in in the in the place where
that album was
recorded in the feeling of that album
like that that silence let's go there
let's go there together it's like Alice
and Wonderland and we'll go there
together you do good Rick Rubin minus
the beard minus the beard his beard is
epic right you can't fake a beard like
that you know how' you guys meet yeah
Rick I'm very blessed to to consider a a
close friend um Rick and I got
introduced through a common friend
during the pandemic and we started doing
some FaceTime together and just talking
about things related to science and
health and I I'm not a musician I have
no musical ability or talent I have a
good ability to memorize lyrics and I
Love lyrics and I love poetry so I asked
him a lot of questions about musicians
that I happen to love that he's worked
with and knows and so he would give me
stories about musicians and I would talk
to him about health and then eventually
we formed a friendship where we would
talk about any number of different
topics in life and then we started
spending time together in person uh when
he was in town or nearby and as you now
know uh you know
Rick in addition to all his incredible
accomplishments has an incredible
understanding of how to get the brain
and body into state right and as you
pointed out he's willing to do the
things that allow him to help uh these
incredible artists get into the best
state to do their craft and so if he
needs to sit there and be quiet with his
eyes closed for a minute or two and or
more uh he'll do that um he has routines
to allow himself to get into State and
it's really inspiring me to think about
states of Mind as something that you
know we'd all love to just just flip the
switch and say we're focused or we're
creative but um to actually ratchet
through the the challenging steps in
order to do that and to figure out what
one needs to do on a regular basis to
get into a proper State it's not just
going to come from a cup of coffee a a
you know a lamp of a particular
wavelength or something it's going to be
those things but it's also going to be
really teaching oneself how to get into
proper State yeah you did episode on
hypnosis do you think it's a kind of
self hypnosis yes I do um because
hypnosis is a con you limit the context
you're very alert and you're very calm
and um he has a number of these
different practices and and so we would
talk about those and then we also have
enjoyed a lot of discussions about deep
Neuroscience in fact I introduced Rick
to a friend of mine who's a neurosurgeon
and neuroscientist and they've become
friendly you know Rick is one of these
people that he sort of defies def
definition um incredibly kind incredibly
private person too so you know I'm being
respectful of that but um and then of
course uh he's a fan of your podcast and
so when I learned that I I just made
natural sense to introduce you and I
know he really enjoyed meeting you and
um we talk about you a lot and and of
course in a positive light you know I
think his dedication to getting into
these states of mind and his willingness
to do that has completely transformed my
routines around life like for instance
before doing a very long podcast record
Rec ing the solo ones which often take
me several hours or more six hours to
record sometimes more sometimes less I
realize that there's a certain brain
State associated with that so I have to
really limit the kind of interactions I
have for the two hours before I actually
walk and talk out loud through my
neighborhood people think I'm crazy but
I live in a neighborhood where there are
a lot of crazy creatives anyway you
saying you're not crazy well um at least
not institutionally uh defined as crazy
yet but um you know getting into State
of Mind is something that we'd all just
imagine we flip the switch but Rick
really convinced me you have to do the
work to do the work can you maybe uh
Linger on that elucidate a little bit
more your process of how you get in that
space that's really interesting cuz I
have to admit I do everything last
minute before podcast I don't
know uh like there's a lot of anxiety
because like whatever if I have to pack
if I have to set up stuff you were
luckily a few minutes you showed up a
few minutes later which for an academic
is right on time right on time but the
stress is immense and uh on top of that
you look at like a situation with Rick
ruin is I I had to set up microphones in
front of him and just that stress the
anxiety he knows a lot about microphones
what did he say which I really loved
he's like how close do you like the
microphone to be it's like uh that's a
very Rick Ruben kind of thing right
that the details really matter yeah the
details really matter right down to your
relationship to the microphone right
distance and whether or not it brings
out the tamber in your voice but of
course this is what he does he he
produces music but he also said like you
know he is the professional he said how
close do you like it to be and he said
it with a gentleness where I had like an
existential crisis where I don't I don't
know I he gave me so much like wow like
he made me feel like an artist like that
the microphone uh distance is a decision
you're supposed to make well I I have to
say and this has actually come up in
some of our conversations about you I
mean you are you are an artist and
actually Joe Rogan once I heard him
talking about podcasting and the fact
that he's always trying to get better at
it you know and he described podcasting
at one moment as an art right and it is
it's a certain medium of communication
and there's a Cadence and a rhythm that
um when it's working it really can
facilitate the transfer of information
when it's not it doesn't I mean
obviously Joe just being himself has
tapped into that Cadence that allows and
that's made so many people excited to
hear him talk well in his case and in
general I think part of the art is uh
refusing the world as you get a bigger
audience change who you are there's one
quote that I've seen out there where he
says you know I'm like the talking about
himself he says you know I'm like the
fish that got through the net there's no
stage version of me right how he is in
person is how he is you know out in the
world and of course there's Nuance to
his life right and his different um
relationships of course but it's true I
mean we've had the you know the great
Fortune of spending time with him out
away from the microphones so to speak
Joe is Joe so can you speak to your that
process you mentioned the walking and
the talking to yourself cuz that's
fascinating yeah I try and do a couple
of things um first of all I when was a
kid I had a little bit of a grunting
tick um when I was five or six um I
would feel this buildup of tension in my
throat and I would do this grunting tick
if I get very tired I start to do it
still we actually know that this is
related to these basil ganglia circuits
for go noo you've got an accelerator in
a break basically in your neural
circuitry and um kids with Tourette and
OCD um the break doesn't work quite as
well and so one thing that happens is if
I wake up in the morning and I'm
especially if I'm well rested well if
I'm not well rested I do a hypnosis or
Yoga Nidra in order to recover my sleep
that works really well but then once I'm
into the process of preparing the
podcast I've already gone through my
notes I know what I want to say more or
less in kind of General contour and then
I take a walk and I I try to so no phone
with me and I try to assess whether or
not my energy is too high or too low for
podcasting because when you podcast as
you know you have to punch out a lot of
material but then there's times when you
really need to slow down and emphasize
and articulate and so uh what I do this
is I don't I've never revealed this uh
what I do actually is I will recite the
lyrics of songs for about 10 minutes um
songs I love while I walk out loud it
calms you and focuses you what does it
do I think it gets my vocal
cords warmed up and it also do you sing
or speak them I often sing them uh and
fortunately nobody hears and as I do
this I start to evaluate whether or not
I'm straining to get the words out or
whether or not I'm straining to make
them slow enough so that I can
articulate them so there are days when I
have so much energy that I I'm trying to
speak faster than I should in order to
articulate properly there are other days
when I'm tired and I can't sort of keep
up with my thoughts and so what I try
and do is assess that and then adjust
the transmission the RPM so to speak for
instance I can speak very quickly and
then I can slow down so I I can change
the Cadence of my voice and when you
teach in the classroom you learn as you
know because you're an excellent teacher
I've watched your lectures in the
classroom as you teach in the classroom
when you want to slow down every teacher
knows you turn to the Whiteboard or
chalkboard and you start writing right
it gives you a break and then you turn
around and you fire back the kind of
machine gun fire of of information and
then you slow down or you underline
something when you
podcast you don't have that opportunity
right there are no visuals in my podcast
so what I try and do is always get my
voice warmed up and make sure that I'm
thinking and speaking at approximately
the same rate and then I also do this
thing of I put my vision into panoramic
Vision when I walk which is very calming
and then I actually start to remind
myself of the purpose of podcasting this
sounds very Mission statemente but you
asked what I do yeah I I remind myself
first and foremost that what I want to
communicate what I want to come through
is the beauty and utility of biology and
I only feel comfortable saying the word
beauty publicly now about science things
thanks to you because uh I I think love
and beauty it love and beauty Dr Andrew
hman love and beauty um but also
darkness and hatred and uh if you're
talking about the Lex Freedman podcast
you have to adjust you have to address
the shadow also the shadow side but I
think about the I want to communicate
the the beauty and utility of biology
and then I I check my my emotional state
I want to make sure that I'm not angry
about
anything and certainly if I am that I'm
going to set it aside for the podcast
because that's not a place for for my
whatever I might be dealing with I also
really start to feel into the parts of
the research and the papers I found that
I really love because that's the part of
me that I I like the most frankly um and
on the podcast if there's a paper like
for instance we have a paper uh excuse
me a podcast coming out soon about um
heat as a tool you know sauna but some
other things and in researching this I
learned so much about um these heat
shock proteins and the use of sauna in
Finland for increasing growth hormone
but also for the treatment of mental
illness I and I realized I I fell in
love with this literature it's just a
beautiful literature these people are
true Pioneers for doing this work now
everyone's in sauna but this was 20
years ago the way the experiments were
done were amazing with all these Finnish
people with thermocouples up there
rectum to measure temperature swimming
in pools it's it's hilarious and great
and so I start to think about and I
think you know I just start to really
access my love of the the work and then
when we finally sit down meaning my
producer Rob and I and record I just
sort of want to just bask in in sharing
it just like the little version of me
when I was six or seven I used to spend
all weekend reading the encyclopedia
Guinness Book of World Records making my
mother drive me places to introduce me
to I had this obsession with trapping
animals when I was a kid meet these
people and then on Monday I would insist
on giving a a lecture in class just as a
little kid so that's basically what it
is I just try and access that that
childlike energy and um so I want to be
clear the goal is always to make the
information interesting clear and
actionable and if it's also surprising
then there then that's a bonus but
that's basically the process but yeah
I'm I'm singing and talking and and
getting into State and I used to feel
very uh sheepish about sharing any of
this this time I've ever shared it out
loud but but Rick was the one who
encouraged me to find a process that
works and continue to develop that
process and not let anything get near
that process people in my personal life
know this and when it's time it's like I
don't care what else is going on on I'm
I'm moving into that brain State and
there's probably a process like that for
anything that you do in life that you
take seriously so the people that have
perfected this is athletes like if
Olympic level athletes they have to have
a process like this know I think Tiger
Woods actually was um taught self
hypnosis quite young um and used self-
hypnosis often during his tournaments
sometimes to Great uh success and other
times less so is there other places in
life that you
use kind of a protoc like a mental
protocol to get ready many of the best
areas of life are their own form of
hypnosis right um you know that you're
in hypnosis if for instance you're in a
movie movie and something happens and
you feel the emotional lift with without
being self-conscious about it
um yes I think that um one thing that
we've tried to do in our house is around
meal times to try and set a state that
food isn't just something that we just
throw down our our throats and I'm
fortunate that you know my partner cooks
really well and so I try and give her
the space to do that and that's a whole
thing of her getting into State and then
for the cooking the the preparation of I
can just see it I just see the way she
approaches the whole thing and the the
pleasure in serving it and and I'm an
Eater Not a cooker um but both are
important roles you could be a very good
eater like there there's something about
is there anything better in this world
than that feeling especially if it's a
family getting around a table just the
warmth of that I don't know the it's
like uh the cold outside of the the
cruel world cannot touch you in this
place that you've returned to and if um
I mean did you grow up eating meals as a
family yeah yeah I mean down no
television no well I didn't really have
television period uh outside of meals so
most of my time was spent um you know
like a stray cat uh Outdoors just
running around uh playing soccer I
imagine you in this like dirt or
concrete lot between two very high ized
buildings playing soccer in uh in like
athletic gear that you only see in
Eastern Europe you know how like you
come to the states and people wear their
athletic gear you go to Europe and you
see maybe it's the soccer culture yeah
but you see athletic gear that you just
don't see anywhere else that's
interesting I mean I we grew up pretty
poor so I first of all I was always
wearing my brother's who's an older
brother brother's clothes uh and they
were like
old uh like the my favorite things were
American things I didn't understand it
would be like a Pepsi shirt or something
and it would just that was the gear and
it was like too large for me but I
thought I was the coolest person ever
just wearing this fancy like Kanye like
type of fashion yeah there's something
about I feel like in in uh Eastern
Europe they wear athletic gear where
like the guys like zip up color no
that's like fancy stuff that's if you
like those are the cool kids I see I see
like the cool soccer players of football
players that uh like they were in a
league of some kind so they would get
uniforms or like or they somehow I
always thought anyone who had anything
nice had to do something really bad to
get it that that was my way view of the
world because like um like I I guess I
didn't understand how it's it's possible
to be rich cuz most of us we were
surrounded by people who are poor and
that life was beautiful and simple and
it's like why do you escape that life
but you still admire the the cool like
uh when we got McDonald's it was like
what kind of
world does this place come from like who
invented this this it's a fascinating
view from a child's perspective of like
of capitalism essentially yeah but but
the fact you ate dinner together is
really interesting uh my parents
divorced when I was an adolescent so
then there was a total fracture of any
family structure but prior to that we
ate dinner together every night I was
expected to know how to use my knife and
fork and you know it was like a very um
structured thing uh I don't know if kids
do that now um you know if I ever have
kids they're going to do that and
certainly um actually on the way over
here I was thinking I was think you know
uh I really want a lot of kids I want it
like a whole litter and um I was
thinking if Lex has kids and I have kids
then like then we can we can like pck
them against each other with jiu-jitsu
this is my chance at Redemption you um
long soccer right they'll all want to be
Engineers or physicists um they won't
want to be biologists um but but in all
seriousness I I look forward to the day
that our our kids uh play together you
know yeah I think there's something uh
so the family dinner the ritual of the
family dinner like but also the special
occasion dinners like uh where there's a
little bit more preparation a little bit
more cooking um whether it's on the
weekend or for some holiday uh in Russia
it was was a thing that actually I find
completely missing for the most part in
America is there was neighbors there was
a you broke the walls between families
much more commonly like there would be
kind of regular characters like a sitcom
almost you know if you watch a sitcom
it's never just the family there's
always like other characters that just
bursting in the door bursting in the
door I'm going to start doing that here
just to make you feel at home just start
showing up your studio I know where you
live I think people want to respect uh
like uh you know Michael M lives next
door to me and I think people want to
respect each other's privacy or
something like that and I think we we
all get super busy and you know
like it's kind of work to do this uh
dinner together or you know you know if
you see it as a thing that needs to be
scheduled it's work we get busy there's
a lot of stuff going on but if it's part
of a ritual a part of the culture that
the all all of those walls get broken
down and and then you realize like
that's like later looking back those are
the things you miss it's like that's
what that's what life is about like all
the stupid stuff you're doing in terms
of career whatever all the busy thing
those don't matter what matters it's the
people and yeah in Academia you know
it's changed in the last few years of
course um but one of the great Joys was
professors will stop by your office or
your lab nobody set set up an
appointment there's a guy when I was a
professor in San Diego a guy named
Harvey carton he's a member of the
National Academy he's the the truly the
world's expert in the evolution of
vision and evolution of brains generally
and uh he would show up in my lab and he
was just start talking to the students
in post talks and um I mean an A pure
encyclopedia uh and then you at some
point you'd say hey Harvey I gotta go
and you you kick him out right or this
guy he's a physicist David Klein David
Kleinfeld who's a same way actually
David Kleinfeld is interesting one he a
student of his went to on to create the
beis and Butthead cartoon and one of
them is David he's a physics Professor
now people can look him up and David's
one of those guys who just walk into
your office he just sit down you just
start talking to you he and and so
there's a kind of a family fi it's like
cheers or Seinfeld or one of those shows
where somebody just walks in and uh yeah
I think you and I both share a love of
the community around things and
podcasting is a little bit more isolated
um I should say for the guest episodes
the preparation is completely different
because it's more conversational and so
there I don't do any of this business of
putting myself into State I just try to
make sure that the guest is
um taken care of and I do list out the
questions I'm going asked before but
those I actually really like the
interview episodes far more than I like
this doing the solo ones just
psychologically mean I just like
learning from someone directly because
you asking an expert about something
like sitting here with you when we
recorded the podcast where you were a
guest on the hubman Lab podcast and for
the first time and finally someone was
explaining to me the difference between
machine learning artificial intelligence
and all these other things you know and
I'm I finally forgiving you for making
me cry about Costello on camera uh but
because it helped me move through it but
but in all seriousness that the
interview ones are are a sheer pleasure
the solo ones I really enjoy but they're
they're their work sometimes I think
like I'm going to sweat a little blood
prepping for them well it's interesting
because I I do think prepping for
interviews is having a similar process
might be also very valuable like I have
to I have to think about that cuzz um
I think when you do a conversation for
several
hours especially when it's a high stakes
one so it's not like you and I now it's
more like it's just chatting and so on
World Order isn't going to shift
according to although you never know we
never know knowing you will probably be
into some pretty controversial topics in
a few minutes you like to ride the edge
more than I do there are a number of
topics that I just completely avoid and
my response to those is always that uh I
have a lot of opinions about that but
not a lot to say you know but whereas
you you've become far uh braver in terms
of the topics you'll encounter and some
of your guests have been a bit
controversial right some of them are are
people that not a lot of PE that a lot
of people don't like um and you you've
been willing to just sit down and maybe
it's the Jiu-Jitsu thing you know I
don't know I it is tricky one of my
goals for this year was to talk to
people that a lot of people really don't
like are you going to share with us and
here I am
what PE people that that are in prison
right major political leaders I've been
thinking a lot about how to talk to
really difficult controversial figures
but find together something with them
that's deeply honest about their nature
about the the ideas they have about the
world
like reveal something real and some
people you have to be very careful some
people are very good at hiding the real
inside them even from themselves that's
something I think about a lot I think
about dictators of the past and I put
myself in the mindset well how do you
reveal something real about this person
to themselves I think that to me and you
kind of spoke to that
but uh a great conversation is when one
where both of you discover something new
like uh it's not just so I love that too
that's my favorite thing what you
mentioned which is allowing your
curiosity and ask all kinds of questions
and get excited to learn from an expert
but also to push them to discover
something about themselves about their
ideas together and then that Discovery
and sometimes it's uh a
like we don't see it in the moment but
the audience hears it it's weird to to
say like uh I would compare it to when
you're a musician you're playing with
other musicians you lose yourself in the
moment yeah it's all it's like it's
working right it's working but you don't
really uh see the big picture impact of
what it's working right actually feels
like and that's where the audience uh
can could see that like if you talk to
somebody
evil
uh you know for me as an interviewer I
have to empathize with that person if I
want to understand I have to put myself
in that mind space and to put yourself
in that mindset you really have to
become that you have to PL you have to
understand the evil inside of you like
you have you can't just think if
somebody's in power and has used that
power to abuse others you can't just be
a well I personally a person who seeks
to understand you can't just be a
journalist asking generic questions you
have to put yourself in a in a place
where you're somebody who's given a lot
of power and slowly you start to abuse
that power and what has that person
become who are you I have to plug myself
into those moments in my life in the
past where I've been angry at something
uh and where I've been cruel because I
was angry in little ways but then you
magnify them at scale and I have to I
have to go there and that's very human
and then I have to look at another
person from across the table from me and
understand well you're there too and
then you had more opportunity to do
truly cruel things and and then um and
then where like you I have to plug
myself into places where I've been or
can imagine I can go where I was cruel
to others and was unaware of it so I was
in a my space where I was thinking that
I'm doing good and I was doing not good
again I've never gotten an opportunity
to do any of those things at at a large
scale but all of us have done it at a
small scale and I plug myself into that
and then we're we're here we're to if
it's somebody who's in prison if it's
somebody who's a dictator we're in that
space where evil is is all of us have
the capacity to do that evil and I have
to imagine myself being able to do that
evil and then we're here together in
that dark dark place and then if it if
it's just right something real can
actually come something from that
person's childhood a maybe Awakening to
uh realiz that I thought I was a good
person and I'm not and for that only
happens when you truly EMP empathize
those moments of Discovery are are
beautiful but they also happen in
science when you just have a
conversation and you you realize uh I
feel like talking to stepen wol from I
feel like we constantly realize
beautiful things together on this
element of um you know evil and
sociopathy that you know Yung had this
notion that we have all things inside us
and that we all have the capacity to be
good or evil Etc um but I have the Good
Fortune of working with somebody who has
deep understanding of Psychiatry but
also psychoanalysis and yian theory and
um and he said to me recently he said
you know whether or not all people have
all things inside them is still debated
in the psychology community and in the
Neuroscience
community and as a matter of philosophy
but there are certain people
not many but there are certain people
for whom they've actually lived out many
versions of their possible selves in the
first person and so those are Unique
Individuals then even if they tapped
into these things at a as you mentioned
as a at a more minor level as opposed to
impacting people negatively at a at a at
scale so being able to access those
different parts of oneself is is key and
you've been willing to step into that
you know my podcast is not one in which
we we get down to those matters
you never know we might do an episode on
on narcissism and sociopathy the other
thing that I I took away from a
conversation with a a friend who was a
did a lot of years in Special Operations
in the intelligence Community he said
you know it's if you look at somebody's
past at some point you will come to
understand some pretty good reasons as
to why they became who they are but you
have to draw the his words the red line
someplace and what he was referring to
was the fact that certain people at
least in the eyes of certain communities
deserve to be eliminated as a
consequence of their actions right
regardless of what drove them to those
actions so it gets right down to the
line between psycho nature nurture uh
neuroscience and the law and Justice um
complicated complicated themes I I can
think of a number of people that um I
would love to hear you interview and
here I'm not revealing the reasons why
but except for the fact that I think you
would be uniquely suited to bring out
the important components of the
conversation that other people have not
been able to uh do which uh for instance
Liz Holmes this is one of the most um
mysterious and yet disliked people on
the planet um uh she's sort of
synonymous with deception MH um I don't
know if there have been any real
interviews of her since the whole thing
um I haven't followed that case I
listened to the book and I MH um I
followed it a little because it was
happening in my hometown right Theos was
right up the road the building's still
there it's interesting it's it's some of
the most premier real estate in Silicon
Valley but nobody wants it it's s like
it's very hard to sell a home where
somebody committed suicide or committed
a murder even if it's a beautiful home
this s feel like the Theos building is
that building um so that would be a a a
really interesting interview I would
love to hear that interview one of the
most interesting dark human beings in
science yeah and then there will even be
people that say you know um was it even
science right it might have all been
deception it might have been one part
deception one part goal setting mixed in
with clearly that there were so many
factors impacting what happened um I
think the big difference between Theos
and that story and some of the other uh
stories about Silicon Valley where
people promised a lot more than they
could deliver is they were promising
things that were directly related to
health and Healthcare people were taking
blood tests with the understanding that
the data they were getting was important
information about sexually transmitted
diseases and other disease and making
real world decisions on the basis of
that whereas if you remember when the
iPhone first came out and uh Steve Jobs
was still alive and the phones were
dropping calls if you held it in a
particular way and his response was a
little flip he said it's it's hey folks
it's a phone as if like don't get so
worked up but people held him
understandably to a very high standard
you know she would sort of it seemed and
I don't know because I certainly wasn't
there seemed like she sort of adopted
this idea that you could get it wrong a
bunch of times before you get it right
except if the allegations are true and I
think they she was found guilty I
believe on a number of counts that a
number of the things that they were
doing were were impacting real world
decision- making where so Steve's point
about the phone it's just a phone well
it depends on the call if you're calling
911 then it's not just a phone right um
but in the case of blood tests and
disease you know that's that's serious I
think that the Theos case was super
interesting to me because of the number
of people from major universities and
from government that both trusted her
and the number of people who did not
trust her and yet either didn't speak up
or no one listened to them it was only
in the forensic version of it that
everyone said oh yeah I knew that she
was lying etc etc they were lying there
multiple people involved in those lies
apparently but I have a deep interest in
the Neuroscience of of narcissism
sociopathy and some of the darker
aspects of the mind so yeah maybe
someday maybe we'll do a podcast
together can be like in the in the in
the kind of early 9s version of Talk
shows where we darken the lights and we
we do it together you can use your voice
cuz your voice is much more Sinister
sounding than M good cop bad cop uh well
it'd be interesting from a scientific
perspective of somebody who is uh a
sociopath or a
psychopath how to reveal something real
about them I
think that requires not just well I
don't know what that requires that
requires is the same skill that it takes
to be a good uh therapist right and some
therapists won't work with sociopaths
because um they don't feel any progress
can be made some therapists will work
with sociopaths because for the wealthy
ones they often um they want their money
I I I think most therapists are good and
benevolent but there's some that will do
it just same way lawyers will work with
criminals knowing their criminals right
um often times because they're criminals
there are certain domains of psychiatry
that are more tractable than others
right borderlines are interesting I
should just mention because they have
this phenomenon of splitting so in the
in the world of psychology the idea is
that being neurotic is actually the goal
the idea that you could be um you know
feel something and then work a lot to
overcome it or um have some sort of
defense mechanism in place but that's
not destructive that's actually a pretty
healthy state to be in it's uh provided
it's not destructive psychotic is
truly delusional thinking about reality
and the idea is that borderlines
split intermittently split between
psychotic and neurotic that's why it's
was called there's beautiful work by
Melanie Klein that describes this um
which I'm just now kind of delving into
but you know so the borderline is the
person who is like I love you I love you
I love you and then truly feels as if
they hate you and you become the bad
object um borderlines are challenging
for psychologists because of the
splitting right um um schizophrenics are
challenging because of the
the Detachment from reality and
narcissists are challenging because
they're often so Charming that even the
therapists are Charmed I believe you
mentioned Carl deso uh we we'll we'll
talk about who's definitely not a
narcissist he's one of the more humble
people but he is brilliant thanks again
to you you you've connected us uh I had
the pleasure of of having a conversation
with them you had a conversation with
them I really enjoyed it on the podcast
you guys come from the same science from
the same place uh maybe different
Journeys fasc and levels we were posts
together Carl is truly the Michael
Jordan the way and Gretzky five children
amazing marriage to it also an amazing
scientist his wife Michelle Mong in our
neurology department at Stanford in
incredible thinker writer very kind
person uh humble um uh speaking of
getting into State sorry Carl I'm going
to out you on this but um Carl despite
being
at the highest levels of science and
engineering and a practicing a
psychiatrist his office is literally a
Coke closet with a small table lamp when
you meet with Carl if you manage to meet
with him cuz he's very hard to get to MH
you walk in you sit