Kind: captions
Language: en
if you get into a sauna the way I just
described not the two hours a day but 30
minutes twice a week or three times per
week you reduce the likelihood of dying
of a cardiovascular event by
27% if you do it four or more times per
week you reduce the probability of Dying
by 50% is there any scientific evidence
that being naked is beneficial in the
sauna well in certain context it leads
to um child birth okay well I'll have to
read up on that I think Dorothy Parker
said uh the cure for boredom is
curiosity there is no cure for
curiosity the following is a
conversation with Andrew huberman his
third time on this podcast he's a
brilliant neuroscientist at Stanford
University and the host of one of the
best the best if you ask me health and
science podcast in the world called
huberman Lab podcast check him out on
Instagram Twitter and YouTube most
importantly and Drew is a great human
being and has quickly become a great
friend this is leex Freedman podcast to
support it please check out our sponsors
in the description and now dear friends
here's Andrew
huberman we meet again my friend uh we
should talk on each other's podcast once
a year I think we should make a deal I
was just talking to the guys this is
show called Lou I don't know if you know
it and yeah with Louis CK and there's
this thing called Bang Bang which people
that probably watching know exactly what
I'm talking about it's this worst
possible thing you can do in terms of
meals which is you go to a restaurant do
a full meal and then go to another
restaurant and do a full meal and you P
you exactly so they go Mexican Italian
Sushi Pizza barbecue IHOP that that one
is disgusting this kind of thing reminds
me of the joy of food last time we were
hanging out we went we went to see Jo do
comedy and then we went to eat Russian
food yeah and it was a
particularly fun experience to go to a
Russian restaurant I was the only person
there that didn't speak Russian yeah and
eat Russian food with you and um because
I felt walking in they they trusted you
they didn't trust me yeah the funny
thing about the the people there they
were talking to you in Russian and then
they refused to sort of uh switch to
English even though they do you speak no
Russian this is Russian house in Austin
by the way uh anyway what by way of
question what's the worst or or the best
depending on your perspective cheap meal
let's call it a pigging out meal but it
could be a cheap meal uh that you've
ever had or you want to have that's like
on the bucket list or something that's
in the past like where you did the
something like a bang bang which is like
you're talking about multiple thousands
of
calories that you just feel horrible
about yourself but you still keep eating
cuz it's delicious but also great
company something about the atmosphere
is just right screw the diet screw all
the things you know just like you should
be doing but just throw it all out the
window I've done that several times yeah
I don't do this anymore but um the
entire time I was a post talk so five
years and the entire time I was a pre-
tenured professor so five years so I
basically followed the uh Tim Ferris
slow carb diet which is you know people
can look it up but it worked really well
it was
basically some you know like good animal
proteins you know fish and meat and
things like that slow carb slow carb
because like low glycemic stuff is
mostly lentils and beans and and things
and vegetables no no Dairy no um anyway
but then one pasta in there sorry to
interrupt no no pasta so it wasn't low
carbet it was low glycemic carb and I
did that and it worked terrifically well
just for energy levels cuz I want to be
able to train and work and then one day
a week you're supposed to go
full cheat day and so I would do what
used to be 12 hours but then it became
24 you know you start to redefine what
the day is um and I would and that was
when Costello was pretty young and we
would do it together so I would get
pizzas and croissants and donuts and I
would just do the full thing and by the
end of the day you don't want to look at
an item of food you're just repulsed by
food the only modification I made was
the next day I would fast completely
just to avoid the gastric distress of
eating anything and um so I would do
them on Sundays and then Mondays I'd
fast all day and then by Tuesday I felt
pretty good again but Sunday and Monday
or you just feel like you're sliding
down the slope of just blood sugar
disaster terrible idea or a good idea
you know at the time I enjoyed it I love
donuts croissants all that kind of stuff
what's interesting is after stopping
that whole protocol now I just try and
eat well each day it's really a protocol
now I basically I do a pseudo
intermittent fasting I don't not really
strict but I'll start eating around
11:00 eat my first meal around 11:00 I
usually train in the morning eat my last
bite of food somewhere around 8 or 9 and
I'm not super strict I might have some
berries or something late at night three
meals two meals two two two meals and
then maybe a little bit of snacking on
some nuts or something in the middle
ever fast 24 hours never done a long
fast except when I was doing the days
and then um and actually there were a
couple different ways to do chej that
were fun like if you were in a new city
you could try all the restaurants that
you wanted yeah and I think Tim and our
mutual friend John romanello did a I
think it was like a cheat Day marathon
where they did you know marathon's 26.3
miles they went to 26.3 different
locations in New York they put it on a
map and I never took it to that extreme
but wa wait over how many days one day
that was their Che just cuz they were
you know just a little bit of something
at each Place yeah exactly I mean there
are things that guys do in their 30s
that you just shouldn't do in your 40s I
can say that cuz I'm in my 40s and uh
now I just try and eat well most days
and what's interesting is about 12 to 14
months ago I completely lost all
appetite for sweets I don't know what
happened I still love Savory food so
meat and butter and cheese uh and I love
vegetables too I love fruit also but
lost all appetite so if you put a
doughnut in front of me or ice cream or
something like I just it's it's almost
aversive to me and I don't know what
happened I don't know what changed it's
probably a scientific explanation sure
is it has to do make neur dementia
the sugar the uh the desire for that
Rush maybe is gone from your uh from
your soul so what was the most delicious
things croissant Donuts what what is
there a thing that um there's a place in
uh Portland I don't know if it's still
open called little te's Bakery and they
have croissants that easily rival the
croissants in Paris people make a lot of
the the pastry in Paris but it's really
the bread in Paris that's amazing we
lived there when I was a kid and we did
a sabatical there and you know there
they do the baguette morning bake and
afternoon bake and there's nothing like
the bread in Paris um or the people you
know and but if you're in the if you're
in the Pacific Northwest you know you
can find amazing croissants there what
do you do with the croissant what do you
do with the bread butter or is it just I
actually used to I don't eat them
anymore I don't have much of an appetite
for them even though they're not a sweet
food but um I'm always putting butter on
the croissant butter on the butter
croissant no Jam I would never I would
never adulterate my croissant I I have
to actually be honest about this cuz
people talk about steak and they they
talk about bread with the butter I feel
like butter is cheating I feel like
you're disrespecting the fundamental
food by adding butter cuz butter it's
like it's like it's like a elite version
of ketchup you're well there we diverge
because for me bread is just a vehicle
for
butter a cracker is just a vehicle for
cheese oh so that's just the the cracker
and the bread is just texture it's just
that people look at you funny if you if
you just eat the butter straight which
occasionally I do I got it but so I put
a little piece of bread underneath it
not because I'm low carb strictly low
carb but just because otherwise you get
some funny looks that's like pasta is is
a vehicle for pasta sauce it's
interesting but like Indian non breed
you have uh you have the bread i' I I've
had a lot of sou searching on which part
of Indian is brings me so much joy is it
the bread or is it all the sauces that
come with the bread well there we
diverge again because for for whatever
reason and no disrespect to anyone but
Indian food doesn't appeal to me well
you're a lucky man because the the
number of calories in that food it
sneaks like non breed I don't know how
non bread is made but I think it's just
soaked in oil and it just very intensely
like the density of calories is very
very high for me barbecue I would say is
probably the that's good anytime I'm in
Austin I start thinking about barbecue I
do love you know I do love meat my dad's
Argentine I mean I love steak I love
meat I mean Argentina chorizo sausage is
an appetizer before you have steak so
it's meat on top of meat and it's not
just you know it's not just the men
right you see women sometimes very
petite women eating steaks that are
bigger than their the their skull size
you know slowly they eat very slowly
there and they all eat dessert too which
is interesting and they generally do the
sort of one meal per day and do that
kind of reflexively that's how I think
about it cuz I often eat one meal a day
especially when I'm traveling it feels
like a cheap meal because it allows it
gives you a bit of more freedom to just
lose yourself in the quantity of the
food I did the 3-day fast and I ate uh
chicken breast like literally chicken
breast with nothing else just grilled
and it was the most delicious piece of
meat I've ever eaten and that uh and
that gives you the problem is when you
fast for 3 days you really can't pig out
you really shouldn't well your stomach
will shrink in siid already your gut
microbiome is almost completely depleted
by fasting a lot of people think oh
cleanses and fasts are great for the
microbiome they quash your microbiome
however when you start eating again the
microbiome comes back better than it was
before your fast for people who don't
know Sergey and Todd are on the call
they're kind of pulling stuff up they
just pulled up Phelps with the I forget
how many calories he was eating 10,000
you know what's interesting there's some
some cool physiology around this the
reason he needed to eat so much is not
that he was burning that many calories
in pure movement it's that when you do
exercise in water even if it's warm
water the heat transfer in water is
greater so you burn far more calories
and again here I I'm admittedly lifting
that from a knowledge that was passed on
to me by Tim Ferris I did so but I
checked it out and it's absolutely true
so if you exercise in water even if it's
not really cold water your caloric needs
go way up which is why you get out of
the pool and you're often really hungry
and for fans of the Hub Lab podcast and
and if you're not a fan what what what
are you doing with your life uh you
would probably chuckle at the fact that
uh Andrew just cited his sources even on
that
statement cuz you're so good at I don't
know how your memory works but um the
only person whose memory is is better
than Joe Rogan is yours but my
colleagues joke um you know Pub Med sort
of Scrolls through through my through my
mind um also in science as you know
attribution is so baked into what we do
and um and I think that it's interesting
because now spending a lot of time on
social media media attribution is not as
common and um but in Academia you learn
really early on that if you give a talk
about your data and you site all these
amazing sources all it does is make you
look better right whereas in social
media and elsewhere in the business
sector it's almost like citing other
people people feel as if it's going to
take away some of the credit all it does
is place you in the company of people
that do really nice work so I have trem
and I have genuine and tremendous
respect for Tim he's been about 10 years
ahead on a huge number of health related
things and other things extremely kind
person very thoughtful person so it's
also just a pleasure to shine light on
other people right yeah yeah well I
actually to push back I I know there's a
culture of if you you write a paper
standing on the shoulders of giants is a
powerful thing but there's also a
culture of not giving credit to the
strongest idea in your paper and instead
say it's kind of or imply that it's
original there is a culture of kind of
not celebrating others I think people
get most competitive in all walks of
life but especially in science when
they're as the closer they get in the
exact of the thing they work on and so
there's this dance you know there's a
few researchers in each of the
individual little things that you work
on if you're studying a particular kind
of ant you know that other asshole that
also is studying that particular ant and
then you're not going to often give
credit for the brilliant ideas that that
other researchers doing and I think one
of the things you've discovered and just
is part of your nature and which is why
it's it's really great that you've uh
have an audience and you inspire others
to do the same you celebrate that other
ant studer it's great and you everybody
wins it raised all boats but that
initial instinct to be like uh what is
it in Borat like my neighbor my neighbor
gets a a toaster I get a bigger toaster
that yeah that mindset do you know it's
not that I'm not not competitive in
certain domains but um yeah I get great
pleasure from um sharing things that I
find and um I think that you know at the
end of the day you're as strong as your
community and you can build a wonderful
Community just by pointing out things
that you love like these are all just
loves I see a paper and I love it only
rarely do I think a I wish we had done
that I usually think fantastic now I can
just focus on something else CU they
checked off that box
and by the way you mentioned Pub Med and
and barbecue I I should mention that I
got a chance to hang out with uh Rick
Rubin thanks to you he's a friend of
yours and you made the connection that
was a huge gift to my spirit I guess
he's a truly truly special human being
and the there's a lot I could say about
why he's a special human being I'd love
to learn how you met him but I should
ALS just mention on the pub Med
thing it was so interesting talking to
him about
music and uh both on the podcast
and privately and just listening to
music together because when you mention
a song he does this thing where he like
closes his eyes and he finds that song
in the album that we're talking about
and he steps through the album you could
you could see the brain like stepping
through individual songs to find that
song in the album and there's that kind
of lookup process and then he puts
himself mentally in that space of like
okay this is uh you know whatever the
album is and not just the ones he
produced but all of it he's an
encyclopedia of of music and it's so
interesting it also uh the thing I
really love about him something like a
calmness that radiates from him that
it's okay to close your eyes and place
yourself in in the in the place where
that album was
recorded in the feeling of that album
like that that silence let's go there
let's go there together it's like Alice
and Wonderland and we'll go there
together you do good Rick Rubin minus
the beard minus the beard his beard is
epic right you can't fake a beard like
that you know how' you guys meet yeah
Rick I'm very blessed to to consider a a
close friend um Rick and I got
introduced through a common friend
during the pandemic and we started doing
some FaceTime together and just talking
about things related to science and
health and I I'm not a musician I have
no musical ability or talent I have a
good ability to memorize lyrics and I
Love lyrics and I love poetry so I asked
him a lot of questions about musicians
that I happen to love that he's worked
with and knows and so he would give me
stories about musicians and I would talk
to him about health and then eventually
we formed a friendship where we would
talk about any number of different
topics in life and then we started
spending time together in person uh when
he was in town or nearby and as you now
know uh you know
Rick in addition to all his incredible
accomplishments has an incredible
understanding of how to get the brain
and body into state right and as you
pointed out he's willing to do the
things that allow him to help uh these
incredible artists get into the best
state to do their craft and so if he
needs to sit there and be quiet with his
eyes closed for a minute or two and or
more uh he'll do that um he has routines
to allow himself to get into State and
it's really inspiring me to think about
states of Mind as something that you
know we'd all love to just just flip the
switch and say we're focused or we're
creative but um to actually ratchet
through the the challenging steps in
order to do that and to figure out what
one needs to do on a regular basis to
get into a proper State it's not just
going to come from a cup of coffee a a
you know a lamp of a particular
wavelength or something it's going to be
those things but it's also going to be
really teaching oneself how to get into
proper State yeah you did episode on
hypnosis do you think it's a kind of
self hypnosis yes I do um because
hypnosis is a con you limit the context
you're very alert and you're very calm
and um he has a number of these
different practices and and so we would
talk about those and then we also have
enjoyed a lot of discussions about deep
Neuroscience in fact I introduced Rick
to a friend of mine who's a neurosurgeon
and neuroscientist and they've become
friendly you know Rick is one of these
people that he sort of defies def
definition um incredibly kind incredibly
private person too so you know I'm being
respectful of that but um and then of
course uh he's a fan of your podcast and
so when I learned that I I just made
natural sense to introduce you and I
know he really enjoyed meeting you and
um we talk about you a lot and and of
course in a positive light you know I
think his dedication to getting into
these states of mind and his willingness
to do that has completely transformed my
routines around life like for instance
before doing a very long podcast record
Rec ing the solo ones which often take
me several hours or more six hours to
record sometimes more sometimes less I
realize that there's a certain brain
State associated with that so I have to
really limit the kind of interactions I
have for the two hours before I actually
walk and talk out loud through my
neighborhood people think I'm crazy but
I live in a neighborhood where there are
a lot of crazy creatives anyway you
saying you're not crazy well um at least
not institutionally uh defined as crazy
yet but um you know getting into State
of Mind is something that we'd all just
imagine we flip the switch but Rick
really convinced me you have to do the
work to do the work can you maybe uh
Linger on that elucidate a little bit
more your process of how you get in that
space that's really interesting cuz I
have to admit I do everything last
minute before podcast I don't
know uh like there's a lot of anxiety
because like whatever if I have to pack
if I have to set up stuff you were
luckily a few minutes you showed up a
few minutes later which for an academic
is right on time right on time but the
stress is immense and uh on top of that
you look at like a situation with Rick
ruin is I I had to set up microphones in
front of him and just that stress the
anxiety he knows a lot about microphones
what did he say which I really loved
he's like how close do you like the
microphone to be it's like uh that's a
very Rick Ruben kind of thing right
that the details really matter yeah the
details really matter right down to your
relationship to the microphone right
distance and whether or not it brings
out the tamber in your voice but of
course this is what he does he he
produces music but he also said like you
know he is the professional he said how
close do you like it to be and he said
it with a gentleness where I had like an
existential crisis where I don't I don't
know I he gave me so much like wow like
he made me feel like an artist like that
the microphone uh distance is a decision
you're supposed to make well I I have to
say and this has actually come up in
some of our conversations about you I
mean you are you are an artist and
actually Joe Rogan once I heard him
talking about podcasting and the fact
that he's always trying to get better at
it you know and he described podcasting
at one moment as an art right and it is
it's a certain medium of communication
and there's a Cadence and a rhythm that
um when it's working it really can
facilitate the transfer of information
when it's not it doesn't I mean
obviously Joe just being himself has
tapped into that Cadence that allows and
that's made so many people excited to
hear him talk well in his case and in
general I think part of the art is uh
refusing the world as you get a bigger
audience change who you are there's one
quote that I've seen out there where he
says you know I'm like the talking about
himself he says you know I'm like the
fish that got through the net there's no
stage version of me right how he is in
person is how he is you know out in the
world and of course there's Nuance to
his life right and his different um
relationships of course but it's true I
mean we've had the you know the great
Fortune of spending time with him out
away from the microphones so to speak
Joe is Joe so can you speak to your that
process you mentioned the walking and
the talking to yourself cuz that's
fascinating yeah I try and do a couple
of things um first of all I when was a
kid I had a little bit of a grunting
tick um when I was five or six um I
would feel this buildup of tension in my
throat and I would do this grunting tick
if I get very tired I start to do it
still we actually know that this is
related to these basil ganglia circuits
for go noo you've got an accelerator in
a break basically in your neural
circuitry and um kids with Tourette and
OCD um the break doesn't work quite as
well and so one thing that happens is if
I wake up in the morning and I'm
especially if I'm well rested well if
I'm not well rested I do a hypnosis or
Yoga Nidra in order to recover my sleep
that works really well but then once I'm
into the process of preparing the
podcast I've already gone through my
notes I know what I want to say more or
less in kind of General contour and then
I take a walk and I I try to so no phone
with me and I try to assess whether or
not my energy is too high or too low for
podcasting because when you podcast as
you know you have to punch out a lot of
material but then there's times when you
really need to slow down and emphasize
and articulate and so uh what I do this
is I don't I've never revealed this uh
what I do actually is I will recite the
lyrics of songs for about 10 minutes um
songs I love while I walk out loud it
calms you and focuses you what does it
do I think it gets my vocal
cords warmed up and it also do you sing
or speak them I often sing them uh and
fortunately nobody hears and as I do
this I start to evaluate whether or not
I'm straining to get the words out or
whether or not I'm straining to make
them slow enough so that I can
articulate them so there are days when I
have so much energy that I I'm trying to
speak faster than I should in order to
articulate properly there are other days
when I'm tired and I can't sort of keep
up with my thoughts and so what I try
and do is assess that and then adjust
the transmission the RPM so to speak for
instance I can speak very quickly and
then I can slow down so I I can change
the Cadence of my voice and when you
teach in the classroom you learn as you
know because you're an excellent teacher
I've watched your lectures in the
classroom as you teach in the classroom
when you want to slow down every teacher
knows you turn to the Whiteboard or
chalkboard and you start writing right
it gives you a break and then you turn
around and you fire back the kind of
machine gun fire of of information and
then you slow down or you underline
something when you
podcast you don't have that opportunity
right there are no visuals in my podcast
so what I try and do is always get my
voice warmed up and make sure that I'm
thinking and speaking at approximately
the same rate and then I also do this
thing of I put my vision into panoramic
Vision when I walk which is very calming
and then I actually start to remind
myself of the purpose of podcasting this
sounds very Mission statemente but you
asked what I do yeah I I remind myself
first and foremost that what I want to
communicate what I want to come through
is the beauty and utility of biology and
I only feel comfortable saying the word
beauty publicly now about science things
thanks to you because uh I I think love
and beauty it love and beauty Dr Andrew
hman love and beauty um but also
darkness and hatred and uh if you're
talking about the Lex Freedman podcast
you have to adjust you have to address
the shadow also the shadow side but I
think about the I want to communicate
the the beauty and utility of biology
and then I I check my my emotional state
I want to make sure that I'm not angry
about
anything and certainly if I am that I'm
going to set it aside for the podcast
because that's not a place for for my
whatever I might be dealing with I also
really start to feel into the parts of
the research and the papers I found that
I really love because that's the part of
me that I I like the most frankly um and
on the podcast if there's a paper like
for instance we have a paper uh excuse
me a podcast coming out soon about um
heat as a tool you know sauna but some
other things and in researching this I
learned so much about um these heat
shock proteins and the use of sauna in
Finland for increasing growth hormone
but also for the treatment of mental
illness I and I realized I I fell in
love with this literature it's just a
beautiful literature these people are
true Pioneers for doing this work now
everyone's in sauna but this was 20
years ago the way the experiments were
done were amazing with all these Finnish
people with thermocouples up there
rectum to measure temperature swimming
in pools it's it's hilarious and great
and so I start to think about and I
think you know I just start to really
access my love of the the work and then
when we finally sit down meaning my
producer Rob and I and record I just
sort of want to just bask in in sharing
it just like the little version of me
when I was six or seven I used to spend
all weekend reading the encyclopedia
Guinness Book of World Records making my
mother drive me places to introduce me
to I had this obsession with trapping
animals when I was a kid meet these
people and then on Monday I would insist
on giving a a lecture in class just as a
little kid so that's basically what it
is I just try and access that that
childlike energy and um so I want to be
clear the goal is always to make the
information interesting clear and
actionable and if it's also surprising
then there then that's a bonus but
that's basically the process but yeah
I'm I'm singing and talking and and
getting into State and I used to feel
very uh sheepish about sharing any of
this this time I've ever shared it out
loud but but Rick was the one who
encouraged me to find a process that
works and continue to develop that
process and not let anything get near
that process people in my personal life
know this and when it's time it's like I
don't care what else is going on on I'm
I'm moving into that brain State and
there's probably a process like that for
anything that you do in life that you
take seriously so the people that have
perfected this is athletes like if
Olympic level athletes they have to have
a process like this know I think Tiger
Woods actually was um taught self
hypnosis quite young um and used self-
hypnosis often during his tournaments
sometimes to Great uh success and other
times less so is there other places in
life that you
use kind of a protoc like a mental
protocol to get ready many of the best
areas of life are their own form of
hypnosis right um you know that you're
in hypnosis if for instance you're in a
movie movie and something happens and
you feel the emotional lift with without
being self-conscious about it
um yes I think that um one thing that
we've tried to do in our house is around
meal times to try and set a state that
food isn't just something that we just
throw down our our throats and I'm
fortunate that you know my partner cooks
really well and so I try and give her
the space to do that and that's a whole
thing of her getting into State and then
for the cooking the the preparation of I
can just see it I just see the way she
approaches the whole thing and the the
pleasure in serving it and and I'm an
Eater Not a cooker um but both are
important roles you could be a very good
eater like there there's something about
is there anything better in this world
than that feeling especially if it's a
family getting around a table just the
warmth of that I don't know the it's
like uh the cold outside of the the
cruel world cannot touch you in this
place that you've returned to and if um
I mean did you grow up eating meals as a
family yeah yeah I mean down no
television no well I didn't really have
television period uh outside of meals so
most of my time was spent um you know
like a stray cat uh Outdoors just
running around uh playing soccer I
imagine you in this like dirt or
concrete lot between two very high ized
buildings playing soccer in uh in like
athletic gear that you only see in
Eastern Europe you know how like you
come to the states and people wear their
athletic gear you go to Europe and you
see maybe it's the soccer culture yeah
but you see athletic gear that you just
don't see anywhere else that's
interesting I mean I we grew up pretty
poor so I first of all I was always
wearing my brother's who's an older
brother brother's clothes uh and they
were like
old uh like the my favorite things were
American things I didn't understand it
would be like a Pepsi shirt or something
and it would just that was the gear and
it was like too large for me but I
thought I was the coolest person ever
just wearing this fancy like Kanye like
type of fashion yeah there's something
about I feel like in in uh Eastern
Europe they wear athletic gear where
like the guys like zip up color no
that's like fancy stuff that's if you
like those are the cool kids I see I see
like the cool soccer players of football
players that uh like they were in a
league of some kind so they would get
uniforms or like or they somehow I
always thought anyone who had anything
nice had to do something really bad to
get it that that was my way view of the
world because like um like I I guess I
didn't understand how it's it's possible
to be rich cuz most of us we were
surrounded by people who are poor and
that life was beautiful and simple and
it's like why do you escape that life
but you still admire the the cool like
uh when we got McDonald's it was like
what kind of
world does this place come from like who
invented this this it's a fascinating
view from a child's perspective of like
of capitalism essentially yeah but but
the fact you ate dinner together is
really interesting uh my parents
divorced when I was an adolescent so
then there was a total fracture of any
family structure but prior to that we
ate dinner together every night I was
expected to know how to use my knife and
fork and you know it was like a very um
structured thing uh I don't know if kids
do that now um you know if I ever have
kids they're going to do that and
certainly um actually on the way over
here I was thinking I was think you know
uh I really want a lot of kids I want it
like a whole litter and um I was
thinking if Lex has kids and I have kids
then like then we can we can like pck
them against each other with jiu-jitsu
this is my chance at Redemption you um
long soccer right they'll all want to be
Engineers or physicists um they won't
want to be biologists um but but in all
seriousness I I look forward to the day
that our our kids uh play together you
know yeah I think there's something uh
so the family dinner the ritual of the
family dinner like but also the special
occasion dinners like uh where there's a
little bit more preparation a little bit
more cooking um whether it's on the
weekend or for some holiday uh in Russia
it was was a thing that actually I find
completely missing for the most part in
America is there was neighbors there was
a you broke the walls between families
much more commonly like there would be
kind of regular characters like a sitcom
almost you know if you watch a sitcom
it's never just the family there's
always like other characters that just
bursting in the door bursting in the
door I'm going to start doing that here
just to make you feel at home just start
showing up your studio I know where you
live I think people want to respect uh
like uh you know Michael M lives next
door to me and I think people want to
respect each other's privacy or
something like that and I think we we
all get super busy and you know
like it's kind of work to do this uh
dinner together or you know you know if
you see it as a thing that needs to be
scheduled it's work we get busy there's
a lot of stuff going on but if it's part
of a ritual a part of the culture that
the all all of those walls get broken
down and and then you realize like
that's like later looking back those are
the things you miss it's like that's
what that's what life is about like all
the stupid stuff you're doing in terms
of career whatever all the busy thing
those don't matter what matters it's the
people and yeah in Academia you know
it's changed in the last few years of
course um but one of the great Joys was
professors will stop by your office or
your lab nobody set set up an
appointment there's a guy when I was a
professor in San Diego a guy named
Harvey carton he's a member of the
National Academy he's the the truly the
world's expert in the evolution of
vision and evolution of brains generally
and uh he would show up in my lab and he
was just start talking to the students
in post talks and um I mean an A pure
encyclopedia uh and then you at some
point you'd say hey Harvey I gotta go
and you you kick him out right or this
guy he's a physicist David Klein David
Kleinfeld who's a same way actually
David Kleinfeld is interesting one he a
student of his went to on to create the
beis and Butthead cartoon and one of
them is David he's a physics Professor
now people can look him up and David's
one of those guys who just walk into
your office he just sit down you just
start talking to you he and and so
there's a kind of a family fi it's like
cheers or Seinfeld or one of those shows
where somebody just walks in and uh yeah
I think you and I both share a love of
the community around things and
podcasting is a little bit more isolated
um I should say for the guest episodes
the preparation is completely different
because it's more conversational and so
there I don't do any of this business of
putting myself into State I just try to
make sure that the guest is
um taken care of and I do list out the
questions I'm going asked before but
those I actually really like the
interview episodes far more than I like
this doing the solo ones just
psychologically mean I just like
learning from someone directly because
you asking an expert about something
like sitting here with you when we
recorded the podcast where you were a
guest on the hubman Lab podcast and for
the first time and finally someone was
explaining to me the difference between
machine learning artificial intelligence
and all these other things you know and
I'm I finally forgiving you for making
me cry about Costello on camera uh but
because it helped me move through it but
but in all seriousness that the
interview ones are are a sheer pleasure
the solo ones I really enjoy but they're
they're their work sometimes I think
like I'm going to sweat a little blood
prepping for them well it's interesting
because I I do think prepping for
interviews is having a similar process
might be also very valuable like I have
to I have to think about that cuzz um
I think when you do a conversation for
several
hours especially when it's a high stakes
one so it's not like you and I now it's
more like it's just chatting and so on
World Order isn't going to shift
according to although you never know we
never know knowing you will probably be
into some pretty controversial topics in
a few minutes you like to ride the edge
more than I do there are a number of
topics that I just completely avoid and
my response to those is always that uh I
have a lot of opinions about that but
not a lot to say you know but whereas
you you've become far uh braver in terms
of the topics you'll encounter and some
of your guests have been a bit
controversial right some of them are are
people that not a lot of PE that a lot
of people don't like um and you you've
been willing to just sit down and maybe
it's the Jiu-Jitsu thing you know I
don't know I it is tricky one of my
goals for this year was to talk to
people that a lot of people really don't
like are you going to share with us and
here I am
what PE people that that are in prison
right major political leaders I've been
thinking a lot about how to talk to
really difficult controversial figures
but find together something with them
that's deeply honest about their nature
about the the ideas they have about the
world
like reveal something real and some
people you have to be very careful some
people are very good at hiding the real
inside them even from themselves that's
something I think about a lot I think
about dictators of the past and I put
myself in the mindset well how do you
reveal something real about this person
to themselves I think that to me and you
kind of spoke to that
but uh a great conversation is when one
where both of you discover something new
like uh it's not just so I love that too
that's my favorite thing what you
mentioned which is allowing your
curiosity and ask all kinds of questions
and get excited to learn from an expert
but also to push them to discover
something about themselves about their
ideas together and then that Discovery
and sometimes it's uh a
like we don't see it in the moment but
the audience hears it it's weird to to
say like uh I would compare it to when
you're a musician you're playing with
other musicians you lose yourself in the
moment yeah it's all it's like it's
working right it's working but you don't
really uh see the big picture impact of
what it's working right actually feels
like and that's where the audience uh
can could see that like if you talk to
somebody
evil
uh you know for me as an interviewer I
have to empathize with that person if I
want to understand I have to put myself
in that mind space and to put yourself
in that mindset you really have to
become that you have to PL you have to
understand the evil inside of you like
you have you can't just think if
somebody's in power and has used that
power to abuse others you can't just be
a well I personally a person who seeks
to understand you can't just be a
journalist asking generic questions you
have to put yourself in a in a place
where you're somebody who's given a lot
of power and slowly you start to abuse
that power and what has that person
become who are you I have to plug myself
into those moments in my life in the
past where I've been angry at something
uh and where I've been cruel because I
was angry in little ways but then you
magnify them at scale and I have to I
have to go there and that's very human
and then I have to look at another
person from across the table from me and
understand well you're there too and
then you had more opportunity to do
truly cruel things and and then um and
then where like you I have to plug
myself into places where I've been or
can imagine I can go where I was cruel
to others and was unaware of it so I was
in a my space where I was thinking that
I'm doing good and I was doing not good
again I've never gotten an opportunity
to do any of those things at at a large
scale but all of us have done it at a
small scale and I plug myself into that
and then we're we're here we're to if
it's somebody who's in prison if it's
somebody who's a dictator we're in that
space where evil is is all of us have
the capacity to do that evil and I have
to imagine myself being able to do that
evil and then we're here together in
that dark dark place and then if it if
it's just right something real can
actually come something from that
person's childhood a maybe Awakening to
uh realiz that I thought I was a good
person and I'm not and for that only
happens when you truly EMP empathize
those moments of Discovery are are
beautiful but they also happen in
science when you just have a
conversation and you you realize uh I
feel like talking to stepen wol from I
feel like we constantly realize
beautiful things together on this
element of um you know evil and
sociopathy that you know Yung had this
notion that we have all things inside us
and that we all have the capacity to be
good or evil Etc um but I have the Good
Fortune of working with somebody who has
deep understanding of Psychiatry but
also psychoanalysis and yian theory and
um and he said to me recently he said
you know whether or not all people have
all things inside them is still debated
in the psychology community and in the
Neuroscience
community and as a matter of philosophy
but there are certain people
not many but there are certain people
for whom they've actually lived out many
versions of their possible selves in the
first person and so those are Unique
Individuals then even if they tapped
into these things at a as you mentioned
as a at a more minor level as opposed to
impacting people negatively at a at a at
scale so being able to access those
different parts of oneself is is key and
you've been willing to step into that
you know my podcast is not one in which
we we get down to those matters
you never know we might do an episode on
on narcissism and sociopathy the other
thing that I I took away from a
conversation with a a friend who was a
did a lot of years in Special Operations
in the intelligence Community he said
you know it's if you look at somebody's
past at some point you will come to
understand some pretty good reasons as
to why they became who they are but you
have to draw the his words the red line
someplace and what he was referring to
was the fact that certain people at
least in the eyes of certain communities
deserve to be eliminated as a
consequence of their actions right
regardless of what drove them to those
actions so it gets right down to the
line between psycho nature nurture uh
neuroscience and the law and Justice um
complicated complicated themes I I can
think of a number of people that um I
would love to hear you interview and
here I'm not revealing the reasons why
but except for the fact that I think you
would be uniquely suited to bring out
the important components of the
conversation that other people have not
been able to uh do which uh for instance
Liz Holmes this is one of the most um
mysterious and yet disliked people on
the planet um uh she's sort of
synonymous with deception MH um I don't
know if there have been any real
interviews of her since the whole thing
um I haven't followed that case I
listened to the book and I MH um I
followed it a little because it was
happening in my hometown right Theos was
right up the road the building's still
there it's interesting it's it's some of
the most premier real estate in Silicon
Valley but nobody wants it it's s like
it's very hard to sell a home where
somebody committed suicide or committed
a murder even if it's a beautiful home
this s feel like the Theos building is
that building um so that would be a a a
really interesting interview I would
love to hear that interview one of the
most interesting dark human beings in
science yeah and then there will even be
people that say you know um was it even
science right it might have all been
deception it might have been one part
deception one part goal setting mixed in
with clearly that there were so many
factors impacting what happened um I
think the big difference between Theos
and that story and some of the other uh
stories about Silicon Valley where
people promised a lot more than they
could deliver is they were promising
things that were directly related to
health and Healthcare people were taking
blood tests with the understanding that
the data they were getting was important
information about sexually transmitted
diseases and other disease and making
real world decisions on the basis of
that whereas if you remember when the
iPhone first came out and uh Steve Jobs
was still alive and the phones were
dropping calls if you held it in a
particular way and his response was a
little flip he said it's it's hey folks
it's a phone as if like don't get so
worked up but people held him
understandably to a very high standard
you know she would sort of it seemed and
I don't know because I certainly wasn't
there seemed like she sort of adopted
this idea that you could get it wrong a
bunch of times before you get it right
except if the allegations are true and I
think they she was found guilty I
believe on a number of counts that a
number of the things that they were
doing were were impacting real world
decision- making where so Steve's point
about the phone it's just a phone well
it depends on the call if you're calling
911 then it's not just a phone right um
but in the case of blood tests and
disease you know that's that's serious I
think that the Theos case was super
interesting to me because of the number
of people from major universities and
from government that both trusted her
and the number of people who did not
trust her and yet either didn't speak up
or no one listened to them it was only
in the forensic version of it that
everyone said oh yeah I knew that she
was lying etc etc they were lying there
multiple people involved in those lies
apparently but I have a deep interest in
the Neuroscience of of narcissism
sociopathy and some of the darker
aspects of the mind so yeah maybe
someday maybe we'll do a podcast
together can be like in the in the in
the kind of early 9s version of Talk
shows where we darken the lights and we
we do it together you can use your voice
cuz your voice is much more Sinister
sounding than M good cop bad cop uh well
it'd be interesting from a scientific
perspective of somebody who is uh a
sociopath or a
psychopath how to reveal something real
about them I
think that requires not just well I
don't know what that requires that
requires is the same skill that it takes
to be a good uh therapist right and some
therapists won't work with sociopaths
because um they don't feel any progress
can be made some therapists will work
with sociopaths because for the wealthy
ones they often um they want their money
I I I think most therapists are good and
benevolent but there's some that will do
it just same way lawyers will work with
criminals knowing their criminals right
um often times because they're criminals
there are certain domains of psychiatry
that are more tractable than others
right borderlines are interesting I
should just mention because they have
this phenomenon of splitting so in the
in the world of psychology the idea is
that being neurotic is actually the goal
the idea that you could be um you know
feel something and then work a lot to
overcome it or um have some sort of
defense mechanism in place but that's
not destructive that's actually a pretty
healthy state to be in it's uh provided
it's not destructive psychotic is
truly delusional thinking about reality
and the idea is that borderlines
split intermittently split between
psychotic and neurotic that's why it's
was called there's beautiful work by
Melanie Klein that describes this um
which I'm just now kind of delving into
but you know so the borderline is the
person who is like I love you I love you
I love you and then truly feels as if
they hate you and you become the bad
object um borderlines are challenging
for psychologists because of the
splitting right um um schizophrenics are
challenging because of the
the Detachment from reality and
narcissists are challenging because
they're often so Charming that even the
therapists are Charmed I believe you
mentioned Carl deso uh we we'll we'll
talk about who's definitely not a
narcissist he's one of the more humble
people but he is brilliant thanks again
to you you you've connected us uh I had
the pleasure of of having a conversation
with them you had a conversation with
them I really enjoyed it on the podcast
you guys come from the same science from
the same place uh maybe different
Journeys fasc and levels we were posts
together Carl is truly the Michael
Jordan the way and Gretzky five children
amazing marriage to it also an amazing
scientist his wife Michelle Mong in our
neurology department at Stanford in
incredible thinker writer very kind
person uh humble um uh speaking of
getting into State sorry Carl I'm going
to out you on this but um Carl despite
being
at the highest levels of science and
engineering and a practicing a
psychiatrist his office is literally a
Coke closet with a small table lamp when
you meet with Carl if you manage to meet
with him cuz he's very hard to get to MH
you walk in you sit down as if you're
going through some interrogation and
some spy novel and he'll ask you what
are you most excited about lately and
I've got 11 minutes or something and
that's a meeting with Carl yeah because
he's that busy but he doesn't have the
office with the pictures of the kids and
the the thing and all that all that is
kept elsewhere so in order to get I
asked him why do you work in this office
right you work on light and channels of
light things related to light of all
things here you are in this dark room
you said well this is what gets me into
the state of mind to be able to do what
I want you to do very Rick Ruben is in
in not the at all the same person but
very similar in that he's figured out
the physical space he needs in order to
get into the optimal state to do the
work that he needs to do in this
lifetime and it's very unusual usual
right if I don't have a window I kind of
freak out I can do it here for a while
we're in this black Cube here floating
in space of course um but but I I find
that amazing that these that these
people that are operating at this super
high level are willing to actually
deprive themselves of a lot of
conditions they're not sitting there
with a with the secretary coming in
offering them espresso every five
minutes and things like that no no no
that's New York Neuroscience I'm picking
the New York Neuroscience Mafia is kind
of famous for having all the you know
tickets to the Opera and this and that
and and they they enjoy lifestyle a lot
the New York new oh there is one there
definitely is one they know who they are
uh they know who they are for people
don't know uh Andrew huberman is from
the west coast and now he's just
starting Wars with the Neuroscience
Mafia well they do amazing science they
think they they love their lifestyle and
that's wonderful but the culture is very
different yeah um Carl and I think
Silicon Valley in general kind of Prides
itself on this kind of um monk likee
aism right so but at then individual
scale be deliberate about controlling
the environment I think about that with
the conversations too I haven't been
deliberate about that either in terms of
controlling the space you're in visually
yes black curtains all those kinds of
things there is nothing like the Lex
Freedman podcast
Studio first of first of all when you
when you do them remotely I always feel
like I'm in a witness relocation program
exactly you only get the coordinates at
the last moment and you always get the
sense that there are people behind in
the walls that um you know are recording
things well there there's something
about creating a feeling I have a sense
that there's a robot over there there's
there's severals throughout this place
and I I
think I think part of
that part of creating a feeling would be
having the robots constantly moving
around and having a mind of their own
because that would most closely put
guests and other humans that interact
with into a place that's uh closest to
my mind because it's such an engineering
mind and in one where when things come
to life it's a beautiful place to be and
whatever that is that could be like art
but to me robots Are art and so I'm
thinking about that both for me and for
a guest and and I'm also thinking about
the difficult guest just the return to
you said Elizabeth Holmes one
person maybe a couple things I want to
say so one
person I think I would like to talk to
is galain Maxwell I always get afraid
right before you reveal these kinds of
things and now I know why I get afraid
yeah I mean again assuming that she did
the things that people claim she did
they're despicable right I mean these
were underage children right there's
just no version of the story where she
did the things she was accused of doing
and is still a quote unquote good person
there's just in my mind right um and yet
I think there is tremendous interest in
understanding like what led her to do
all that at least for some people let me
say a couple things so one
is at a high level let me say that she
believes or her current story is is that
she's the victim of who of Jeffrey
abstein oh
my I think I'll just leave that there as
as but so this is these are ideas that
you're
facing the nature of truth and the
nature of the human mind is what it is
and this is Imagine folks if you went
into a room with a person that says that
what do you do
next let me also say that I never or
rarely let me say not say never I rarely
mention names that I'm interested in
talking to without having made
significant progress in already securing
that interview so people sometime ask me
about uh Vladimir zalinski and Vladimir
Putin I do not bring them up lightly in
terms of there's in terms of there being
a path to an actual conversation that
said something I regret but I'm not sure
I know how what to do with it but in the
case of all the people I just mentioned
mentioned I haven't been preparing for
those conversations I only start really
preparing seriously when it's confirmed
because it's such a heavy
burden and one of the things I regret in
having mentioned a conversation with uh
Vladimir Putin before the war in Ukraine
broke out in in the past few years is
that I would mention it very Loosely
very
casually and without having really
deeply put myself into a place that I'm
ready to talk to him and that that
that's a tricky thing because then the
internet uh the the audience in general
and just me when I listen back to my
dumb self think well why are you
speaking so lightly about these topics
well I know you've had a long-standing
interest in talking to him I think now
you know uh well the I don't understand
um
how I would sit down and have a
conversation with somebody like that but
that's not in in the range of my skill
sets right I or like uh maybe not in the
range of things that you're drawn to
somehow not so much I mean I would watch
that episode with with great interest um
well you did an episode recently with
this guy who was a uh former cyber
criminal turned State side right I think
he works for the government now and
there was a segment in there um remind
me his name Brett Johnson Brett Johnson
there was a segment in there where he
talked about stealing a lifetime's worth
of collected coins from some elderly
woman and this was everything she had
and then he openly admitted that he felt
No Remorse which is the way he described
is purely sociopathic and then of course
we learned that he grew up in a family
where criminal Behavior was very common
it was kind of embedded into his um
Notions of what typical behaviors were
and I found myself somewhat conflicted
but also hung you know hung up on this
idea that you know I mean he was you
know he had behaved as a
sociopath um or in a sociopathic way and
it it created a an internal conflict
because he's quite Charming guest and
his stories are terrific um especially I
really enjoyed his discussions about how
he would go out and um do all these
things out of a desire to please his his
girlfriend mhm you know so he was in
service to other people despite being
sociopathic you could say he was in
service to them as a way to extract gets
very complicated I think is the reason I
went into science is that it at some
level it's more about facts than it is
opinions and judgments and I don't know
that I have the ability to suspend
judgment over the away from the kind of
top level Contours of my initial
reaction to like if it's true like the
glain Maxwells and the Liz Holmes and
the other sociopaths is one of just kind
of revulsion and repulsion mhm but that
could also reflect the fact that I'm not
as you know uh neurologically
sophisticated as somebody that can spin
all the plates of of empathy forgi
forgiveness but also um holding people
accountable at the same time that's
that's work that takes if you think
about that's three four brain circuits
having to work in parallel that's the
difference between chess or a game of Go
and a game of checkers I guess I'm
playing checkers and you're playing
chess so one is actually holding in your
mind and two is the the raw skill of
conversation you're you're very just
having listening to your interviews
you're very good conversation but the
skill of conversation is really tricky
I'm not being self-deprecating I'm being
just objective I'm not good at
conversation I'm working very hard
getting better at it I'm I'm speaking
not about just podcasting I'm speaking
just normal life I I'm I have
anxiety from social interaction I do you
really oh huge Amal yeah yeah so this is
interesting because I never detect that
in you ever and I think uh there are
people that we both know that have said
to me that they too feel anxious and
yet your voice is steady I don't see any
perspiration oh yeah um you appear
incredibly shitless I scar shit list
with Rick rubben he's Rick Rubin is at
when you first meet him is
intimidatingly calm but as you get to
know him a bit you realize that his the
kindness and the generosity that you
sense is real um but yeah I would never
in a million years uh have guessed that
you get anxious in conversation can I
just make another quick comment this may
come off entertaining to you Andrew
maybe you've already gotten the same um
but
having mentioned Vladimir Putin Vladimir
zalinski uh gay
Maxwell there's a natural
question how does
Lex have access to these
people who does he work
for like how does
he or who works for him for who works
for him what does he have on others this
I'm actually I ask I when look in the
mirror um just somebody who kind of
enjoys conspiracy theories it I want to
ask the same question like well I
usually ask in the following way like
how the fuck am I so lucky like who am I
being am I a robot being controlled by
somebody else or like what how's this
how's this my life right now what is
happening it really does feel like a
simulation so let me just speak the to
several things first of all I have no
boss I know I know of nor am I
controlled by any intelligence agencies
of Any Nation we're going to get you a
dog
Lex I could talk to uh I'm scared of
getting a dog because I would fall in
love so deeply I think that uh next time
I'm bringing a puppy I'm just going to
bring a puppy and I'm G leave it here
man and then uh you'll never see me
again I mean I love dog so much but the
uh I was also surprised and maybe um I I
have
never talked to an intelligence agency
which is very interesting to me like I I
I I that you're aware of because they're
very good at communicating with people
with but I've been very suspicious on
this exact point that's the downside of
kind of uh being an introvert having
anxiety about social interaction but
then having so much love thrown your way
because we connect over podcast podcasts
have a powerful way of connecting people
so people come with you with love that I
really love I appreciate but I wonder
like exactly this question like uh like
why is this person with a Russian accent
talking to me and show showing me so
much love well because sorry to
interrupt you again but um it's what we
do um and it's a sign of Interest by the
way to sometimes sometimes yeah I have a
colleague at Stanford and she said you
know
Interruption 75% of the time is a sign
of of real interest in what the person
is saying if nothing else uh well you're
very lovable well that that I mean I
learned about Hedgehog in the fog from
you you know when I learned you know
you're very lovable people love you
because you're lovable I love love okay
so 100% And it's I mean especially here
in Austin Texas people are so so amazing
I go just hugs and just I I love people
but do you want a family are you
eventually 100% no I mean you're I take
I take what you said as a challenge uh
uh in terms of having a family with kids
and they do Jiu-Jitsu and obviously
defeat you and and and make you um
miserable for your failures as a father
because you couldn't uh um you going be
a great dad build up an army of good
juus of people but yes I I would love a
family I would love to have uh children
but I just want to finish that point cuz
I'm nervous about it I'm nervous about
the way people perceive what you're
seeing is a forest gum type character
like what who I am I I seem to be and
and this is how like the world seems to
work is you just try you try to be
yourself like you try to find yourself
that's maybe the better way to say it
and just be
that be kind to people work your ass off
and say F you to anybody that wants to
control you or to tell you what to do
just be free and then put love out there
in the world and doors open this Karma
thing seems to work uh some like how the
hell did how the hell am my friends with
you now how the hell did I get a chance
to eat barbecue with Rick Rubin right
like had you guys had barbecue you had
barbecue uh he right of course he's from
New York any New Yorker that I know has
very high standards for food because bad
restaurants don't last long in New York
and barbeq col say oh yeah oh yeah Texas
barbecue well you know I would also add
that you whether or not you realize it
or not you took tremendous risk I mean
we come from the same original Community
which is academic science right and to
be at MIT and to start posting lectures
online is risky right to you know I was
third or fourth man in on in terms of
podcasting as an academic because you
had gone on Rogan many times David
Sinclair had gone on there you know th
the especially before the the pandemic
you just didn't see many academics and
scientists talking in a public faing way
uh so you took tremendous risk right you
took tremendous risk always wearing that
jacket and tie right um the only time I
haven't seen you in that truly is when
we rolled jiujitsu which is and here I'm
being generous to myself saying I rolled
Jiu-Jitsu and basically you choked me
out in front of hundreds of thousand
really it was uh it was a it was great
fun and I I I thank you for doing that
to have a beginner's mind is a beautiful
thing I have admittedly I have not been
taking the classes but I'm going to I
truly am um especially should there's a
small chance I might find myself in
Austin a bit more often in the in the
near future but the well if you're out
in San Francisco you should train with
Mark Zuckerberg he just started so there
you oh yeah you guys could
interes sure I mean he's actually uh I
mean people listen to an episode perhaps
he's a fascinating human being I listen
to it it was great you took tremendous
risk as an academic to do what you did
so I do believe that when one takes
intelligent risk because you can die
your can your career you can do all
sorts of um self-destructive or uh
destructive things when taking risk you
took risk and and they paid off right
and you take different risks at
different stages but I I don't throw
around the word admiration lightly I
mean I admire that you were in this
classroom and in my team like I'm going
to film this and put it online uh you
one of your early interviews is with Ido
portal who's very hard to get to I've
communicate with EO a few times you
should definitely talk to him I can't
wait to talk to him I'm dying to talk to
him I was supposed to do some um
teaching with him uh right before the
pandemic hit and then it got canceled
cuz he couldn't travel but getting to
him is exceedingly challenging so you do
have this incredible ability to get to
people um and for them to trust you and
know you and I think it's through your
authenticity and I think it's the fact
that you're willing to go places where
people haven't been before you know that
this is what's the saying about pioneers
how do you spot the Pioneers they're the
people with the arrows in their backs
you know so that that's the you know
yeah and and that's actually a quote
that I lifted from Terry snowski who's a
there go you know exting sources again
um Terry's you should talk to Terry he's
a um uh computational neuroscientist
down at the Suk Institute uh Howard
Hughes investigator Etc but so you know
taking risks that other people have not
taken is that's a real thing and to do
it with uh integrity and rigor that's a
real thing and so yeah I'm complimenting
you and and I hope it I hope it lands
and lands deeply but I also hope that
people will hear that and understand
that it's one thing to to do what other
people are already doing boldly it's a
whole other thing to launch an entire
art form or venue and you did that and
uh you didn't write a book hopefully you
will someday but you didn't go write a
book a lot of academics have written
books you went online Jordan Peterson
another controversial character he did
it too all those lectures that he filmed
and then it's led to this other thing so
um you know there's Karma and then
there's also having the spine to just
put it all on the line and do something
for which there is no prior example to
hold on to while you go through those
headwinds the really fascinating thing
and actually a lot of people tell me
about you Andrew
hberman like the reach of a podcast is
really fascinating it's not the it's not
the numbers of people people listen I
don't know if that's important at all is
what's important is like the depth of
connection you have with certain people
it really moves them like a great and
like they really get you so there's a
lot of big Andrew huberman fans that
really get you it's not just the science
it's the stuff between the lines it's
Costello it's the whole picture of a
scientist that finds Beauty and biology
and reveals it and they love you for it
you know um because it was on television
at the time uh I followed that Amanda
Knox story pretty carefully um and I
don't watch television but whenever I
would travel if there was a TV on the
airplane I would find myself um getting
wrapped into things like Locked Up
Abroad you know like and these things
where which make you terrified to travel
anywhere let alone commit a crime
overseas um you know the the scenes of
some of these prisons are so dramatic
and you know I mean her case got a ton
of interest and then I you know she went
and then was a student at the University
of Washington um and has talked quite
openly about you know how she was
treated and how people assume guilt and
you know and eventually you know she was
exonerated and you know we can only go
by what we know what the law determined
but you know these are people that the
world is fascinated by I would I'm
guessing about a third of people have
already decided this person is
Despicable why would you ever give them
an audience about a third of people I
think are open to or at least interested
in learning more about them and then I
think the the remaining Third Kind of
the third that the category that I put
myself in which is what can I learn
about people and myself even in my
revulsion right what can I learn yeah
what can I learn about myself from
listening to this conversation with
somebody that I that I like to think I'm
not talking about Amanda here I'm
talking about the other people you're
talking about that I I don't I can't
relate to right talk hearing
conversation
with and about people that you cannot
relate to is informative otherwise your
whole mind literally becomes insular
right well there's an interesting thing
I also had to um ever since the war in
Ukraine broke up one of the questions I
was asking
myself uh and this is not to be dramatic
it's just a very simple honest question
that I think a lot of journalists that
operate in the war zone or documentary
filmmakers that every Reon they got a
chance to meet have to be honest with
themselves are you willing to put at
risk your life for things you
do what are you willing to die for yeah
what are you willing to die for it
sounds very
dramatic but whenever risk goes
up um I mean I don't know you you ask
that if you want to take out a a trip
out to space on a commercial space
flight you have to are you willing are
you willing to die for this for this
journey now the odds they're really
small I just watched Apollo 13 again
yeah great movie yeah great I'm not
going to
space I'm not going to space afraid of
heights no I'm not afraid of heights I'm
I'm I just it feels like a feels like a
terrible place to die
yeah well first of all death anywhere is
not great yeah although you know I have
um a song teed up in my phone if my if
the plane starts to go down yeah I'm
going to spend the last few it's a rare
song Nobody Knows It it's a song off of
B track of my favorite band which is ran
it's this song called the sentence and
nobody nobody and I love it and I listen
to it almost every day um ran the the
sentence it's called the sent the band
is called rancid famous band relatively
love those guys love their music um and
the song is the sentence you can only
find it on like a bider outake and it's
if you don't know how to decipher Tim
Armstrong's voice then you probably
won't understand the lyrics but um
because it's sung very very fast but if
the plane ever goes anytime there's
turbulence I put that thing in I put the
headphones in I like well you know if
it's time it's time I'm gonna go out
like this I don't want to drift off into
the Galaxy just slowly asfixia and
freezing to death that sounds horrible
just like I wouldn't want to drown or
burn but on a plane is okay well on a
plane I mean like if the thing starts
going down and there's truly nothing you
can do you might as well at least listen
to your favorite song yeah true true
I'll probably go with the Pixies where's
my mind like from Fight Club and just
the calmness just sit back like uh the
musicians playing at the Titanic I
didn't know you were a pixie fan I'm
going to have to not not so much a pixie
fan actually I I should say that I just
that was the whereas my mind it was the
chosen song for Fight Club at the end
when the buildings are coming down or
something like that so that the the
there's certain songs that just fit just
right for the collapse of human
civilization and you you're calmly
appreciating like that that's just it
this is how absurd this life is at any
moment it can end and this is it this is
uh I love how we both have uh death and
demise yeah um soundtracks it's just a
question when you're an academic doesn't
come up often right well oh that's
that's I just yeah there are some
academics that are bold and brave it's
it's not a phenotype being bold and
brave in the physical world is not a
common phenotype of academics I mean the
great neurologists one of my TR I don't
have many Heroes but Oliver Sachs is a
true hero I mean um people think of him
as a writer but he was foremost a
neurologist and he took
tremendous push back from the neurology
Community for doing his books and his
articles uh he has a great biography
called on the Move there's a wonderful
documentary that just came out about him
he died in 2015 I'm actually um kind of
a collector of his things um but he
tremendous he was accused of horrible
things until the movie Awakening came
out with dairo and Robin Williams
amazing movie by the way people don't
they seem to not say great things about
the movie I love that was amazing and it
was only once he became famous from that
movie that his AC More academic work
started to receive any kind of attention
and he was invited back to Colombia and
NYU you know the New York Neuroscience
Mafia is a real thing um and yes you
know who you are and some of them are
actually coming on the broadcast um they
they they are you're uh I think we
talked offline about this we should
start a mafia to to B to fight off
whatever is going on in the east coast
although I'm still in MIT so I don't
know how that works but Boston is
different than New York yeah so I have
tremendous respect for science done in
New York don't get me wrong they are
excellent scientists it's it's just a
very different culture than on the west
coast um and the personalities the the
personalities tremendous respect for the
mob well well and the the personalities
are are a bit more um grandiose however
because of some of the shift in science
culture in the last few years things
around um scandals and things of that
sort um they've been forced to Tamp down
some of their personality or at least
their outspoken personality and I
actually think it's revealed something
really important and useful in science
which is you know it used to be the case
you could really inject your personality
into what you do you know Richard
fineman's a good example if he did what
today what he did then Bongo drumming on
the roof of Caltech naked um working out
theorems in um strict clubs and things
like that he would have lost his job in
moments right so that kind of behavior
isn't celebrated anymore it's actually
punished um and I'm only half kidding
about this New York Neuroscience Mafia
but because I now exist in multiple
Realms I can say these sorts of things
and I again admiration and respect but I
will say that I think it's important
that people in science that and kids
that are curious about science
understand that
you can have any personality provided
that you're ethical and respectful in
science and do well right there are true
bench scientists that just want to be at
the bench there are people that just
want to be in their office there are
people that um really enjoy public
speaking and there are people that love
meetings and there are people that hate
crowds and so there's a place for
everybody truly a place for everybody in
science I would like to be able to shine
light on the fact that there are you can
have a shy personality an outgoing
personality and you can all of those can
be have excellent careers in science but
you have to find the community in place
that's right for you one reason I like
Stanford is that Stanford is very much
about the future we have Nobel Prize
winners we have field medal winners and
all that stuff and their names are on
walls and we acknowledge their great
works but most of what you hear about in
the halls of Stanford is about what's
happening now and what could happen next
it's really about the future whereas
when I've spent time at other
institutions not to be named you hear
that but there's a lot of kind of
recycling and regurgitation of how
wonderful people are based on things
they did previously and the students at
Stanford because of Silicon Valley sure
they have respect for Nobel prizes
they're delighted to be learning from
and surrounded by all these great minds
but they're mostly interested in what
they're going to create and so I kind of
uh not kind of I really like the shift
toward possibility as opposed to things
that are steeped in Tradition you know
I've never been to high table dinner at
Oxford I'm sure it's a wonderful
experience I'm also not sure what
purpose it serves for the world but I've
never been and so I don't know what the
conversations are and so maybe I'm you
know speaking out of line here and then
now I'm definitely not getting invited
you're you're you're definitely getting
invited but yeah I'm with you the the
cultures pick pick the right ones for
you that's why I like MIT this the
spirit of it to me it's not about the
past or the future is about just
tinkering and having fun building cool
stuff like the big ambitious projects
it's there I mean maybe more on actually
the biology and the health side but like
the engineering side it doesn't matter
if this has any impact let us build the
coolest thing the world has ever built
well what there uh whenever I'm in
Kendall Square I've seen uh the they
have those buildings there that actually
tilt toward the ground these are these
uh the architecture of MIT is also
really impressive yeah this he pulled up
S just pulled up Yas tweet I'm inspired
by curiosity that is what drives me so
let us expand the scope and scale of
Consciousness so that we may aspire to
understand the universe those those are
like three Tweets in one but curiosity
yeah yeah curiosity for its own sake
what's that saying um I think Dorothy
Parker said uh the cure for boredom is
curiosity there's no cure for
curiosity and you need to celebrate so
let me just briefly mention
to my lovely friends at
MIT to celebrate different weirdness to
celebrate the weird characters I've um I
sometimes get loving pressure
from my lovely friends at MIT to tone
down the weirdness a bit really even
from
MIT I'm very fortunate to have a lot of
Leverage to where I I have completely
resist the pressure but I I'm very sure
that there's young faculty that with
that subtle
pressure would um dissolve them into a
puddle of tears not no no I oh they're
from Boston excuse me from Boston that's
right they're they're tougher than that
that's right but it's a slight nudging
towards Conformity that I think
ultimately
destroys um or at least
lessens the uh uh the power of the kind
of science that you can do when you
encourage diversity diversity in all of
its forms including the weirdness of
ideas the outof the Box thinkers
including the flamboyant Behavior
online uh how you choose to educate how
do you choose to inspire you know people
talk about freedom of speech but it's
not just like freedom of speech to say
controversial things it's also freedom
of speech to be weird like if you're for
some reason assasinated in uh like you
look at musk he talks about sex a lot
let the guy put sex memes up who cares
like I mean I feel like Elon can do
basically whatever he wants right
there's no pressure but there's a bunch
of Elon in the academic world there's a
bunch of el uh no actually sorry let me
backtrack cuz the man deserves props
right he's unparalleled he's he's a CEO
of major companies you better believe
there's pressure to behave more like a
as opposed to a giggling school boy
who's posting memes throughout the night
but that is him and that freedom that's
what Freedom looks like I talked to a
lot of CEOs and a lot of
them feel like uh caged birds who have
long ago forgotten how to sing quite
honestly like they they there's like
shareholders and they come up with
excuses for themselves here's why I have
to be this way you have th understand so
on there's PR there's marketing people
there's lawyers there's all that kind of
stuff but the final result is the
authenticity suffocated the the
beautiful weirdness of a CEO of a leader
of a creator of a scientist all that
that's all uh that's all gone well Steve
Steve Jobs wouldn't have um kept his job
in uh acting the way he did in his 20s
and 30s in today's climate but he
probably would have up dated his uh his
protocols so to speak a little bit but
maybe you know you're screaming at
employees I mean these are these are
anecdotes right I call them anec data
because people treat them as data but
they're they're really just anecdotes we
don't know I wasn't there um but you
know I like the idea
of authenticity without
oversharing right you're very authentic
but there are aspects to your life that
I'm aware of that your audiences will
never be aware of and there are aspects
of your life that I'll never be aware of
and so you're still authentic but yeah
which wait which ones are you aware of
people are going to wonder like what
what Sex Dungeon what is this no no no
but interesting but interesting choice
of examples um no but I think that um
you know people lose lose careers on the
basis of the movement of their thumbs
right I mean the chair of Psychiatry at
Columbia recently lost his position
based on a a response to a tweet people
can look that up this is one of the most
famous Psychiatry departments in the
world and he put something out there
that was very insensitive at frankly and
um everyone that I talked to about it
was like gosh that was very very incens
of not thoughtful at all and and he lost
his job right or at least had to step
down I don't know the specifics so um
you know I I think I read some place
that more than half of the uh job loss
due to online behavior is because people
were trying to be funny MH right I mean
not everyone can pull off what Tim Dylan
oh and by the way congratulations I
heard that you and Tim just got married
yeah I saw no no we didn't just get
married he proposed got it got it got it
and I said yes right so some people can
get away oh yeah thank you thank you
Sergey has that has that those 13.3
th000 likes one of those is mine uh so
for people who are not aware one of the
days in April tweeted that Tim Dylan
asked me to get married and I said yes I
think Tim uh said the wedding will be on
Sixth Street in Austin bring all of your
weapons which of course is totally
inappropri this is this I I wasun I I
was like uh PG funny and he's goes rated
R uh funny right away but that said I
mean if there's
anyone I I would like to get married
with it's it's that guy and we would do
it in Austin and it would it would it
would be epic it would be like the um
the wedding from November
Rain um one of Mr Mrs oh wow oh Mr
Mister I apologize wow yeah and you
broke and you broke broke tradition with
the with the jacket color so it sounds
to me that you are a free speech
absolutist I think freedom is really
important and that includes letting
people who are hateful letting people
who are controversial have a voice on
platforms but it Bec comes I'm not sure
what exactly to think because
um I also treasure the quiet voices in
the back of the
room and sometimes the
assholes um silence those voices meaning
by being loud and obnoxious and so on it
pushes away the thoughtful people so I'm
also a fan of creating communities like
you should be able to let people kind of
build Community that's positive that's
loving or that's constantly trolling or
that's uh super hateful all those
communities should have a place in the
world but like the thing I've noticed is
that uh hate can destroy a community
full of hate can destroy Community full
of love easier than a community full of
love can overtake one with hate and so
you have to kind of I don't know exactly
how but create digital mechanisms that
discourage the Collision of these
communities they should all have a
platform and ability to speak at to a
large audience but I just you have to be
careful to protect that like little
flame of um of connection that people
have yeah that's good the goodness it
sounds like I mean the um yeah I think
you you you know in any great City like
New York which I love by the way um you
want to have a symphony and opera house
and you want some punk rock shows
happening on the Lower East Side you you
want all of that you just don't
necessarily want them to overlap the in
terms of social media you know and then
podcasting and engagement one thing that
I decided very early on is was to
encourage comments and feedback Etc but
I have in my mind what I call classroom
rules you've taught in the university
and then you teach in the university and
there's C you establish a certain
etiquette within the classroom of the
kinds of questions that you'll tolerate
right so there's always the student
that's going to ask a question which is
basically a 10-minute monologue about
their experience that really isn't a
question that pertains to a lot of
people so you you um politely discourage
that kind of question and you encourage
the kinds of questions that are likely
to be in the minds of many other
students it's just more efficient that
way or not politely which is um you know
I try and respond to comments and I try
and respond but also you know there's
this also this really interesting
question now if uh you block people or
restrict people people think that you're
somehow afraid of the information that
they're posting but that's often not the
case I'm not in the habit of blocking
and restricting too many people
occasionally we've had to do it only
because of how other people are being
treated in the comment section what I
can take and what I think other people
deserve to take are two completely
different things David goggin right who
we both know well um I don't know if he
still does this but a few years ago he
posted something like if people ask him
when do you sleep he would just block
them yeah because it wasn't consistent
with what he was trying to say of course
he sleeps but it's you know he's trying
to get a particular message out I think
people should just understand that
everybody's page is their own to
moderate right just like in a classroom
there are certain rules of course of
institution but then you establish the
etiquette within the context of the kind
of class you know a class about
personality psychology or the um
psychology of love you're going to have
a very different range of of
conversations than uh you know a class
on um you know meman
physiology so I I think um social media
is a great place for conversation but
it's not necessarily a great place for
every kind of conversation yeah and I
also should say the people that do get
blocked I never this is something I do
very deliberately blocked or ignored I
never think poorly of them I actually
explicitly think if if there's somebody
that's like saying hateful things about
me or whatever I always think positive
thoughts it's not some kind of weird
Guru thing but just actually found that
as a hack I I think well of them and
that allows me to never think of them
again like I I send them my love and
like I think this is a like fascinating
human being with a fascinating story I
would love to have time to actually
learn about their story but there's not
enough time in the world and I just
think well of them and then I move on
and enjoy a delicious meal with people
that are close to me and I love and so
on and just and move on and never adding
to the negativity of like just even in
the privacy of my own mind thinking a
hateful thought towards them it's so
serves no purpose whatsoever yeah I I
love that about you and I know that what
you just said to be true one of the I
think more um toxic things in life is
what's called um you know evacuative
projection when people feel something
and they try and evacuate it and project
it onto somebody else projection is
fascinating right what you essentially
just said is that you don't accept
projections and in fact you transmute
them to put in the language of the
Buddhist you know you transmute it into
positivity and in that way you you you
truly neutralize it um and transmute it
I think
that if people were better understood
when they were experiencing or observing
evacuative projection um the world would
be a much healthier and happier place
but it requires a certain a stable
internal Rudder and um you know when
we're tired or sick or angry you know we
were hungry excessively hungry um all of
us are less less good at it I've been
positively struck by the nature of most
of the um interactions not just feedback
but my favorite thing as an educator in
the classroom but also on social media
my absolute favorite thing is when the
comments to about other people's
comments are positively reinforcing so
you see people having conversations
within the comments yeah and you realize
this is like if you as an educator again
you know you it's fun to teach and it's
fun to talk to the students but the real
pleasure is in walking by a small group
of students on campus and hearing them
talking about the material that's that
just fills me with joy and and because
what it means is that the ideas are
reverberating in their nervous systems
and will eventually Wick out to others
so it's not just about feedback it's
about a venue for for parsing
information so you actually posted that
we're going to talk on Instagram and I I
collected a bunch of the questions which
reminds me of I I have to um mention
Mike Jones and a question he asked but
also gift he gave quite a while ago if
it's okay but first uh quick bathroom
break yes we're looking at an Instagram
page of Mike Jones knife and Tool you
should check it out he G he uh Andrew
gave me a gift from him that is a badass
a butcher knife yours is the earth do do
do from if by rer Kipling yeah the the
story of this knife is kind of
interesting perhaps to people where it
was I I was coming out here to Austin to
meet with Lex and it was his birthday I
want to get him a gift but I didn't know
what to get him and I contacted this guy
Mike Jones that I learned about through
Joe Rogan because the first remember in
the old um days of Joe Rogan when you go
on the episode afterwards you'd take a
picture with an object so it's was like
uh Elon with a flamethrower people would
have the axe I picked up this um
bushwhacker Hatchet thing and I was like
I love this thing and and Joe said oh
yeah you should check out Mike Jones's
work he does these beautiful knives and
so then I heard your episode with Joe
and you recited a poem at the end it was
right after your grandmother died and
there's a line in that poem from the
from if that um Mike engraved on that
knife for you so he makes these by by
hand I I love there is the old
days before the podcast and first
appearance that was the first time on
there and um it was a lot of fun um in
the old in the old studio in Los Angeles
and um yeah Mike makes these beautiful
knives and I have this in I just have a
great admiration for crafts people so
yeah do you use it do you cut your your
one meal a day steaks with it I feel are
you taking it with you on your travels
exactly I actually uh used to keep it on
the table but I thought it it it really
intimidate guests a little bit but like
you can put it on their side yeah right
it's like oops it's trust right what's
what's the story I mean yeah so but it's
cuz it's
not it's it's uh quite badass if I may
say so the craftsmanship is obvious but
also it is a knife it's got some like
Dexter like qualities to it it looks
like it's designed to to cleave through
a limb if I had like a family or
something where people there's nothing
about this place that's softens your
kind of sense that this might person
might not murder me me let's put it
differently uh this place could use a
woman's touch that's one way to put it
if it's okay let me because it is it is
a poem I um go go to often actually uh
you mentioned reciting some lyrics and
I'm actually going to go back to that at
some point to get get a few songs that
touch you um but this is one of the
things I I go to often I I I'll read it
to remind myself it's uh
advice from from father to son and it's
a kind of Mantra that it's just nice to
live by so if it's kill let me just use
this opportunity one more time read If
by rer Kipling if you can keep your head
when all about you are losing theirs and
blaming it on you if you can trust
yourself when all men doubt you but make
allowance for their doubting too if you
can wait to not be tired by waiting or
being lied about don't deal in lies or
being hat hated don't give way to hating
and yet don't look too good nor talk too
wise if you can dream and not make
dreams your master if you can think and
not make thoughts your aim if you can
meet with Triumph and disaster and treat
those two imposters just the same if you
can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by naves to make a trap for
fools or watch the things you gave your
life to broken and stoop and build them
up with worn out tools
if you can make one heap of all your
winnings and risk it all on one turn of
pitch and toss and lose and start again
at your beginnings and never breathe a
word about your loss if you can force
your heart to nerve and Sen you to serve
your turn long after they're gone and so
hold on when there's nothing in you
except the will which says to them hold
on if you can talk with crowds and keep
your virtue I like this one and walk
with Kings nor lose the common touch if
neither foes nor loving friends can hurt
you if all men count with you but none
too much if you can fill the unforgiving
minute with 60 seconds worth of distance
run yours is the Earth and everything
that's in it and which is more you'll be
a man my son thank you Andrew thank you
thank you Mike for the knife is a I
don't know it's a and and engraved in
it yeah it's yours yours is the Earth
and everything that's in it we toiled
over what to engrave and then finally I
just said Mike just pick something that
speaks to you you're the Craftsman and
so he selected that there's certain ways
to pull yourself in that bat actually uh
Carl daero gu daero he he uh wrote the
book projections one of my favorite
first of all just as you said incredible
writer just amazing just I mean um if
you wrote fiction if you wrote those
kinds of things I'm curious to see where
he goes with his writing it's very
interesting I think that book took him
10 years to write which is Vindication
for me and for you because we're both
supposed to write books and we haven't
done
it yeah I mean you know in some sense
your um first book will
have you know decades in it right even
if you just take uh half a year to write
it
it's like the first book like the first
album for a musician I mean it's a life
it's a journey it's a it's a it's every
but he he uses uh poems and quotes in
there really well it's a beautiful book
it's a dreamy book I think when people
hear that it's a book about Neuroscience
they think they're going to get a
textbook or a protocols book or
something it's nothing like that but it
really is a deep dive into the mind of
the psychiatrist and the researcher and
so much feeling and compassion I love
that you love poetry I mean I didn't
know that until I saw you on Rogan read
if um and I'm not a a very uh rabid
consumer of poetry but I I'm a big
Wendell Berry fan um uh and I try and
read a poem once every few days also I
think if is a tough act to follow oh
yeah you know oh yeah I mean that that's
the richness and the I mean like you
said EV every third line in there is
something that you would you know you
consider your life well- lived if you if
you said that right what about the uh PR
preparation for the solo podcast you
said you listen to certain songs you no
you sing or recite the lyrics of certain
songs is there ones that kind of come to
mind that interesting um yeah I've
always been very lyrics driven and I
don't understand music I've talked to
Rick about this I think I've talked to
you about this a little bit I don't
really understand uh I mean I can hear
music and like it but I don't really
understand the the structure of it but
lyrics make a lot of sense does it touch
your soul music or is it the lyrics it's
the lyrics it's not the instrumentals so
I'm a huge Joe Strummer fan and I'm
going to lose Punk points for saying
this but I'm not a clash fan oh okay so
he obviously is best known for The Clash
most Clash songs start off great and
then after about 30 seconds in at least
in my mind just kind of disintegrate
into a bunch of mush whereas um Joe
Strummer in the mescaleros which is what
he did as an adult as a you know later
and some of his solo work he actually
Rick produced some work that he did with
Johnny Cash you know Rick pulled Johnny
Cash Out of essentially out of
retirement and had him do his albums
before he he died and um so anything
that Strummer did there's a there's a
favorite song of Mine by Strummer it's
called Burning Lights um you can find it
there is an album now where you can find
it or Tennessee rain or some of these
things that he did which are a little
bit more folky so not really Punk so I
love that song um bunch of songs by rans
that I love yeah you know and then if I
listen to instrumentals I I do um I'll
listen to classical piano some dreams
are made for children but most it's not
going to sound good as a poem they can
play the people can play the song play
the song okay yeah so I I'll I mean
because it has to be Su Joe's voice is
what makes the song got it um Joe's
voice is what makes the song but yeah
that song Burning Lights from I married
uh I hired a contract killer or I don't
know the lrics are pretty good I mean
Joe is an amazing writer right I'm you
know I'm also a big Bob Dylan fan um
Glen Gould for classical piano he was at
Asbergers you know and um and actually I
think you can hear him grunting he had a
Tourette's like tick um and I learned
about Glen Gould from Oliver Sachs um so
I'll listen to any number of things it
depends on my mood if I'm feeling a
little more tired and I need to be amped
up I'll listen to something that's a
little louder and faster if I'm feeling
kind of keyed up and I need to bring the
Cadence down a little bit um then I'll
listen to something a little mellower
poppier I I I love bands like um yeah
I'm a big fan of this um British pop
band called James there's like 20 bands
named James but this one you know again
I lose Punk points for saying that but
they're amazing uh and best I think
you've accumulated enough points where
you can afford to view to lose a few
yeah um but in any case uh yeah music
and poetry are they're they're the
they're the subconscious right I mean if
you think about a Bob Dylan song or a
really good Strummer song or a poem that
the the words don't mean anything when
read linearly but they make you feel
something they're tapping into the
subconscious that's really what they're
doing they're they're pulling on neural
threads of emotion based on either
tamber or Cadence or something that's
independent of the word structure and
that to me is the beauty of music and
poetry I often say Johnny Cash's version
of hurt that I say it would be my
favorite
song ever well he did a 9in nail song he
did he covered I think Rick produced
that pretty sure he produced that he
produced it I mean he did like the Rick
produced the he pulled Johnny Cash Out
from a dark place to produce something
that um I mean when you look back is one
of the great things ever in music which
are these like uh haunting covers of
certain songs and Originals Johnny Cash
and Joe Strummer did a version of
Redemption Song together that is uh that
Rick produced which is um on Loop in my
house sometimes you know for hours and
hours that song is fascinating Bob
Marley song sung by Johnny Cash and Joe
Strummer you know sometimes I think what
it would be to be a fly on the wall when
these guys were doing this Stu these
songs of
Freedom there's certain songs where
you're like it it it um
elicit an
emotion that's unlike anything else I
mean I was I was trying to figure that
out with with Rick too like there's
certain songs that make you want to pull
up over to the side of the road and just
weep or just uh get inspir to just get
shit done or all those kinds of things
or remember your family the people
you've lost all that kind of stuff me
hurt I hurt myself today to see if I
still feel there's certain songs that um
I've loved so much that I actually won't
play them during a relationship until
the relationship passes a certain yeah
duration because you if you start
sharing in those experiences with
somebody in the and it starts to become
associated with the relationship you
braiding it in with the dopamine of uh
of love and that relationship ends the
song is forever tainted there are
certain songs that I will never play in
the company of anybody else they're mine
they I I just I'm it's too risky to uh
to give those up um and uh you know be
and I think that um and there's like
levels there they levels right uh
exactly we'll leave it at that yeah and
uh the interesting thing
about this kind of preparing for the
solo episode uh just interacting with
Rick about that process of preparation
and because you mentioned um so with
interviews by the way so are you do Solo
solo are you the only one in the room or
no well it used to be Rob my producer
who um I should say you know he's really
the person behind the the podcast I mean
we're first of all we're equal Partners
everything you're just a pretty face uh
we're just um and I'm aging man not not
I'm I actually really I like I like
aging it's weird a lot of people like
friends with David Sinclair and it's all
about not aging I I'm I don't want to
live past 9095 I'm just trying to get as
much done as I can in this short life
and do it right and with integrity and
heart and accuracy you know um and you
like the stages oh yeah if you read
Erikson's stages of development you
realize that
every stage of life is a is a it's a set
of neural circuits trying to resolve a
problem and um and if you're going to
try and avoid that that progression sure
you might live longer but um you know
it's sort of like saying like do you
want to go win the uh High School
Jiu-Jitsu Championship no you graduated
high school a long time ago right so I
actually look forward to the future um
even if it means that I'm starting to
shift I think that uh my biology will
shift you know I'll fight that I try and
take good care of myself but um I don't
want to get sick I don't want to suffer
who does but I I'm embracing this whole
uh developmental Arc I mean we don't de
we're not children and then adults our
entire life is one long developmental
Arc and if you fail to embrace that you
fail to extract the richness of of what
it is to be a human being so um in any
event for the um I record uh Rob is in
the room I'll sometimes stop and ask him
for feedback if I feel like something's
not Landing right so he goes if it's
clear he'll let me know if it's not
clear he'll let me know excuse me and
then you know Costello used to be in the
room the early days of the podcast which
weren't that long ago um he's snoring at
my feet and farting and smelling up the
room and we're all just kind of like
gasping for a he's a bulldog that's what
they do uh with him gone it it changed
you know the the whole thing changed
there will be another dog soon um and as
you know I uh I've been moving through
that grief process but having him there
gave me a levity that um I miss but in
my mind he's still there yeah he's still
there yeah he's still there so uh and
you know in time there'll be another dog
and and who knows you know maybe
there'll be a dog and a couple infants
running around but that that would be
more distracting so um but it's there's
no podcast that exists just because of
the podcaster this is true for Joe this
is true for you your podcast for me that
there's it's not just a staff of people
that post stuff that's just the top
level Contour there's the constant
feedback and iteration of what you want
it to become and trying to hold on to
something that's essential along the way
because everything has to evolve but you
can't lose the the essence of something
anytime a company or brand or a a course
or a scientist has done that it just
ends up terrible it just is a you know
it becomes like a senatur version of
itself so to Rick is very the the power
of the people in the room is great to in
to inspire and to destroy so you have to
be extremely careful with the selection
of people that are in the room to me I
never really thought of it that way I I
I thought only only positive things can
happen oh by adding people in the by
adding people in I think if there were
an audience in the room for well you
know what someday I'd love to do a live
podcast with you um we're doing I saw
you doing like a a couple of live things
which is great that you're Paving the
way there to well we did one I went up
to University of British Columbia um uh
and did a a lecture on a on a college
campus and one of the more gratifying
things that happen is this guy this kid
in his early 20s I think stood up and
said you know I've never been on a
college campus I didn't think I could go
onto a college campus and that I still
rings in my mind whoever you are out
there that meant so much to me cuz I was
like yes there was something about that
to me I was like okay this it made sense
to come all the way up here and do this
in person because you can get out to a
lot more people online public speaking
events it's not like it's that lucrative
or anything I mean unless you're
whatever you're a famous celebrity or
politician or something I'm sure there
are people that do well with it but
that's not what it's about for us it
it's really about being able to connect
with people in a different venue and for
interactions like that uh I don't know
how many of them we will do um but I'm
curious to see how it goes but I'd love
to do a podcast with you is it
energizing my my
fear is the the fear of the introvert is
that I don't know if I can handle so
much love and Fascinating People all
around it's like I don't know makes well
we'll invite a few haters too well yes I
mean but I love the haters too but I
don't know it makes me nervous cuz I
Jordan Peterson is currently on tour I
got a chance to hang out with him when
he does he does um a lot of live
speaking Yeah he does like he's not on
tour where he does like every other day
and but he doesn't have any small kids
at home anymore so he can do that so
yeah you should do it before you also
exhausting I mean I'm I'm just speaking
from an athlete perspective like uh if
you're MC Jagger with the Rolling Stones
it it it's just
physically I mean you have to speak
potentially for 2 hours
then offstage like hanging out with
people it's a lot it's a lot of hours
it's a lot of hours to stay focused to
to to keep finding your place of like
calmness and excit well and you're
staying in hotels your circadian rhythm
is disrupted you're not getting your
like cold and sauna and your workout
every day your food isn't optimal um I
think done in patches I could enjoy it
um because it's fun to meet people from
different places I'm doing a a public
lecture in Copenhagen for the lunbeck
foundation in June June third and that
one is particularly gratifying for me
because the lunbeck foundation is an
academic foundation so the fact that and
so when they invited I asked you know do
you want me to talk about what my lab
does or do you want me to talk about the
stuff on the podcast they're like no no
not your lab you know we want to hear
about this like Health stuff and the
stuff that we cover on the podcast so
that was amusing to me and tells me that
um you know things are changing now I
think 2020 and 2021 revealed a lot of
things about people to ourselves but one
thing that it made very clear is that
there's an enormous appetite for tools
for mental and physical health but also
understanding about science and how
science is done so thanks to you again
I'm not saying this to flatter you it's
true gratitude there is now a a runway
for scientists to talk to people I mean
you had the I always forget this guy's
named the virus guy from Columbia uh
Vincent renell yeah amazing right I mean
forgetting the controversy around the
all the stuff of 20221 I mean he is an
encyclopedia of all things virology yeah
people to listen to his podcast this
week in virology he's also an incredible
lecture and educator it's uh it's
fascinating it's fascinating when people
take again that leap of putting all that
education online that's noncontroversial
at all it's like everybody there people
should go listen to him for the most
part in terms of at his best at least uh
there's no politics in it there's
there's there's none of no he he's a
virus jockey he likes playing around
with bacteria and viruses and but that
said we all molecular biology we all say
stuff carelessly all the time so he he
gets in a bit of trouble on some of the
things you've said about like dismissing
lab leak Theory like there's no way he
dismisses that yeah but not he's not
making like
folks uh there's a difference when you
say stuff uh like off the cuff and when
you say stuff that's like core to your
principles and you've thought about it
for a very long time you talking for
hour for hundreds of hours and you can
just say stuff you could just say your
opinions um Will Smith uh slapped I was
wondering okay wait how long have we
been recording I was wondering how long
it was going to take us before someone
we talked about Ukraine no no Will Smith
I was wondering whether or not we'd make
it theend I had it planned yeah I was
literally in the back of my mind I had
it planned that at the end if we didn't
talk about the Will Smith Chris Rock
thing that I was going to say it's
amazing this is the first conversation
to happen in uh in a long time where it
wasn't mentioned oh no not pull it up no
we don't need to see we don't need to
see it revealed some interesting things
about um human beings impulse control
and uh lack thereof but um you know oh
my goodness Chris Rock has material for
the rest of his career yeah I think he's
he's not short on material but I do see
if I if I knew what I I wanted to tweet
if if I knew you're allowed to just slab
comedians my conversation with Tim Dylan
would have gone very differently people
just being humans I there's so much
fascinating human nature on display
there um it it's also in terms of it
coming becoming a topic that a lot of
people are talking about versus the war
in Ukraine for example is also
fascinating to watch like just these
kind of news Cycles moving through I
think in if I may I sorry to interrupt
but um you know anytime we observe
something very lyic very emotional you
know we generally can empathize somewhat
right uh we all know what it's like to
feel angry we all know what it's like to
feel ashamed we all know what it's like
to feel shocked images of War are for
most people very hard to relate to we
see it it's you know the there these
images and they're very traumatic and
and challenging to look at at times and
yet most people have no idea what it
feels like to be shot at or what it
feels like to have your home destroyed
or what it feels like like to be um a an
aggressor in that way so it's very so I
think that people naturally Orient
towards things that feel familiar to
them even though the circumstances are
different and people also forget they
look at these
celebrities it's just like looking at
criticism of Will Smith you forget that
they're human too that's that's one of
the most surprising things for me having
done this podcast and met celebrities
and stuff like that they're human
they're all human that's inspiring to me
like some of these great folks that have
won Nobel prizes and built some cool
things they're just human like the rest
of us well and if you look at actors and
actresses I mean there's some amazing
ones right and who also do well in their
outside life but their careers were
built on the business of pretending to
be other people yeah and that's got to
distort maybe positively but also just
let's be honest what it is that the
neuroplasticity there the changes in the
areas of the brain that represent
personality have to be quite different
for somebody who pretends to be lots of
different personalities and gets paid
for it you're working the reward system
into the system of
self-identity and you know you have to
imagine that that can really um contort
somebody's Neurology in ways that maybe
they are not as in maybe they are not in
touch with reality in the same way that
we are remember earlier we're talking
about neurotic versus psychotic you know
they may be more borderline
in their kind of ground state than than
we think and so I'm actually impressed
anytime there's a celebrity who doesn't
have a messed up life yeah I'm like oh
wow you know finally somebody who's
managed to you know maintain a some
semblance at least from the outside of
of normaly so first of all I can
empathize with the actions the Will
Smith did right they're not I think
they're kind of sh not kind of they're
just shitty you should probably talk
privately manto man uh not cuz otherwise
it's like a dramatic display it's like
it's almost like you are a fake act
you're acting well there are all these
questions right I mean obviously it was
aggressive at some level there's this
question of whether or not it was
impulsive I think most people feel yes
there's a question there was the
protective nature of it because he was
doing it to you know in it apparently to
in defense but then there's also the the
context he lost touch with the context
right um whereas Chris Rock basically
gets um there there's the possible
critique that he went too far that's
going to be in the eye of the beholder
um but then and depending on how you
view comedy and jokes but then there's
also the fact that he took that slap and
then just snapped right back so much so
that people thought maybe it was faked
yeah he also waited with his hands
behind his back that's just natural he
likes to stand like that I mean I um
the I I I got to tell a little bit of a
story here to connect
um to what Chris Rock did like I I wish
what Chris Rock did in terms of just
taking this lap and keep going first of
all it just props for somebody that's
able to maintain cool in that situation
for the most part I think I like watched
it once you only have to be alive on
this planet yeah to see it you can't
avoid seeing it I wish at that
afterwards he would sort of say
something loving and kind to Will Smith
and and his wife and then hit him real
hard lean into the joke see and but
they're I think in hockey they call
taking a number have a friend who plays
hockey and there's this idea that like
if someone checks you really badly in
one game you don't go and check them
again you don't get into a fight but
three games later you like you blade
them in the shin yeah like you so
what the the ability to defer and to
handle it in whatever fashion one feels
is appro they're probably also friends
and all those kind the things that they
respect each other so he probably didn't
but there's a comedian Instinct I saw
this I was in open mic in uh here in
Texas I won't say where there's many
open mics in a we gone to a few of these
these pretty fun no so there there is
more sort of um rougher kind of yeah
you've been hanging out in like West
Texas exactly Austin's too tame for Lex
so he's like head to West Texas exactly
I put on a cowboy hat and instantly I
became a cowboy I've been talking like a
cowboy and I mean I I belong out there
in the desert he's gone from eating you
know meet and athletic green so
rattlesnakes here rattlesnake J exactly
no there was a open mic it was it was uh
late at night and there I was one of the
only people in the audience there's a
couple of drunk folks a few drunk folks
one of them was a couple uh and uh like
bikers like uh with with helmets and so
on a guy and a girl and then the
comedian uh the open mic
comedian did a joke about people who
wear helmets I don't know if it was on
purpose or not but he did the joke and
then the guy about women who wear
helmets and the guy this exact same
situation the guy stood up walked up to
him there was no slap it's so
interesting cuz this happened before the
Will Smith thing so he he walked up to
the uh to the comedian
and and and said he like uh he he I
think he like pointed his finger down
and told him to stop or something like
that and then sat down this is an
audience of like six people right and
and uh at midnight around then there's
no nobody no security nothing in Texas
in Texas which implies oh then this guy
was the energy drunk but also a
biker and has what he felt felt his lady
was now attacked by the comedian right
with his words and this and the comedian
was a kind of out of shape small guy
just not threatening at all and probably
in trouble and the comedian after he sat
down he looked a little bit scared he
paced back and
forth and then he did the joke again wow
and I was sitting and I started I I
leaned back and I I just did this
like because that is comedy and the guy
was Ang getting angry and angry and he
just sat there and and uh the comedian
went on for a couple more minutes and
then did another bad joke but another
joke about how just like he leaned into
it if you go to a small Comedy Club open
mic or otherwise you're in the shooting
gallery like you're basically there teed
up as a PIN to get it um we went and saw
Andrew scholes in in San Francisco in
San Francisco yeah it was hilarious it
was amazing I mean he's he's just
masterful in his ability to command an
audience you know and but I felt for the
people up front but you know no sympathy
either because you know you buy tickets
to sit up front at at a scholes show you
know you're going to get it but he was
very loving yeah and funny first of all
funny the funniness really helps you but
the the the ethic of the comedian is
like that fear lessness I what I really
liked this is like the the danger
there's risk to Comedy and there's also
consequences have you watched that show
the um what is it the marvelous Miss Mel
show it's really good um I watched a few
of them um guilty pleasure there uh she
plays a a comic in the I think it's mid
1960s in in New York and um and there's
a a character that somewhat resembles
Lenny Bruce it's s meant to be Lenny
Bruce um and they're always getting
arrested and this this kind of thing I
think I learned about it from Joe anyway
it's the writing is great it's very
funny um but yeah comedy is designed to
push boundaries right and to get and to
say the thing that you know uh other
people aren't feel they can't say not
something in science right science
you're supposed to Etiquette is a big
part of how you communicate ideas it's
about constraining communication this is
something I I mean I confess on the
podcast in the goals of making it clear
uh interesting surprising and actionable
you know you have to constrain the
amount and the style of information
otherwise it becomes something else all
together
right I saw s Pai Google CEO said that
he likes uh the thing you mentioned not
the yoga NRA but the the nsdr nonsleep
deep breath uh podcast over
meditation I don't know if you saw that
I saw that yeah yeah yeah uh why what
what do you think that is what what do
you think the difference is yeah so
non-sleep deep rest nsdr is an acronym
that I coined because it encompasses a
lot of practices that are not meditation
per se but that bring the brain and body
into a state of relaxation and focus so
hypnosis is one variant of nsdr there
are other variant of nsdr you can just
look these up and you'll find them and I
think that they've caught on and that
the Google um the CEO of Google uh is an
avid practitioner of
nsdr because it has this amazing ability
to reset your energy levels and focus
whereas with meditation many people find
meditation hard and part of the reason
they find it hard is that it requires
focus nsdr is a state which is very calm
and relaxing you don't have to work too
hard you're just listening to a script
whereas most forms of meditation not all
but most forms of meditation involve
cranking up the activity in your
prefrontal cortex and trying to see your
thoughts as opposed to thinking your
thoughts or um focus on your breath but
then third personing yourself in some
respect and that's work and so many
people who meditate quite intensely feel
more exhausted now that doesn't mean
that meditation doesn't have any utility
but it's distinctly different than nsdr
and I think that people are working
certainly the CEO of Google after mag is
working very hard and using his
forebrain if he's going to have 20 or 30
minutes to take a break he should and I
think this is what he's doing he should
go out for a jog and not listen to
anything and just kind of let his mind
wander or sit there in a chair and just
zone out or do SDR the problem is people
are not that good at shifting States we
are all actually pretty good at be even
people with severe ADHD read an episode
about this can become hyperfocused on
things that they actually enjoy because
dop and most of the drugs designed to
treat ADHD are drugs that increase the
levels of dopamine so when you like
something there's dopamine release and
you can focus it's when you don't like
something that's hard to focus shifting
States is hard I'm sure you've
experienced this if if you've ever been
in deep research or podcasting
podcasting and then all of a sudden you
go for a run you probably spend the
first third of that run thinking and
then in the middle third you're kind of
that thinking is is fractured a bit and
then in the final third is where you
finally get to relax because the brain
doesn't shift States very quickly we can
go from sleep to wakefulness quickly we
can go from wakefulness to sleep quickly
but we don't shift between different
states of Consciousness like a step
function except in rare cases right fear
is one all of a sudden we hear an
explosion right now it's a step function
we're in fear or we're in alertness
right um a heighten state of alertness
but nsdr is terrific at allowing people
to learn to shift their state and I
actually would venture to argue
that part of the value of meditation and
exercise is the actual state that you
get into in deep meditation or exercise
but just as valuable is the transition
that you have to take yourself through
from one state of mind to the other and
then back again I when I look you you
know David goggin he always seems to
come up but he rep because he represents
so many important things Drive
determination override of emotional
state going from being a 300 lb plus
person to a fit person through he's
never revealed anything substantial
about what he ate or what he didn't need
he's basically says like listen run a
lot eat less right um but what's
remarkable is so much of what he says is
about those transitions about taking
oneself from a state of I don't want to
to scruffing oneself and like you're
going to do anyway and then being able
to carry that into into regular life so
to speak so I think that um nsdr is
immensely powerful it's zero cost and
one of the reasons I'm such a fan of
people doing it is that most people
don't stick to a meditation practice
there also been a few cases you might
find this interesting there's a book by
Scott Carney I forget what it's called I
think it's called the Transcendence trap
or something I'm G to have that title
wrong but there have been a fair number
of cases of people that go and do very
extensive meditation silent meditation
Retreats who then return to normal life
and end up killing themselves there are
states of mind inside of extended
meditations or silent meditations that
are very beneficial and I'm certainly
not suggesting people don't meditate but
I know at least one person who came back
from one of these long extended
meditation Retreats and wasn't able to
shift their state back into one that was
functional in regular life and that book
includes a very dramatic story I don't
want to give it away in case people um
check out the book but Scott told the
story to me directly once
where someone feels they've reached
Enlightenment and then commit suicide so
these very unusual brain states are are
potentially hazardous if people can't
return from them so it's it's nice to
focus not on those brain States but
instead on the shifting right I do this
morning I woke up a little bit earlier
than I would have liked I use this
revery app that's research back re.com
there's a free of it and or you can try
it for free so I feel for hypnosis for
hypnosis and I do a self hypnosis to put
me back into sleep and if I can't sleep
to just put me into a state of deep
relaxation I would I would put um
hypnosis under the category of nsdr yoga
needra under the category of nsdr
they're now some nsdr scripts online if
you just go to YouTube that are you can
just listen to and do you like those I
do yeah I think the one from made for is
quite good I have an affiliation with
them but it's free so I feel comfortable
mentioning it I do I I really like the
Ry app um
I can very and as you the more you do
them the more quickly you can shift your
brain into a state of deep relaxation I
will sometimes stop mid podcast if it if
it's sometimes our recordings go seven
eight hours and I'll stop and I'll do a
one minute hypnosis they have one minute
hypnosis inside Ry you're only going to
you're only going to find that one
minute hypnosis is effective if you are
routinely doing 10 and 15 minute
hypnosis in addition to that meaning I
do it every other day or so 10 or 15
minutes so there's a there is there a
YouTube uh one minute hypnosis or is
this for the there are but inside of
Revy as well you can find them online a
really good pull it up so please um yeah
so rev is good and then Michael cely s a
l y he has some long hypnosis scripts
but again these are all free and you
know there's a lot of good research now
on the neural networks and it shifts
your so-called default netwk default
mode Network it shifts how much of your
forbrain you're using and it also is
very very good if you I get so many
questions about
hey I'm really upset I found out about
my girlfriend's sexual past or hey I'm
so upset I found out that my boyfriend
was cheating or oh soone so died how do
I get over these emotions how do I deal
with them and hypnosis has shown to be
very useful for people to learn to bring
themselves into a state of deep
relaxation to literally project in their
Mind's Eye these very intense things
that they don't like and then for people
to associate with other emotions in
their body to learn to be calm while
feeling your feelings to dissociate the
Mind Body communication to some extent
just observe the feelings observe them
and start to associate them with
positive experiences you're an Android
guy so soon it should be available on
Android and well then it doesn't exist
for me it's only uh you know I don't get
Android is the device of the people all
you elitist people with your iPhones
okay but tell me this about Android now
now you want to this is the one thing
that gets me yeah cuz I'm very close to
someone who uses an Android phone I feel
like like that so you you have great
people in your life that's good to know
no their messages always look green to
me but I answer yours not despite that
um but they I feel like the Android
phones are very trigger happy like
anything I touch does something whereas
the Apple phone is kind of built for
like a maak monkey to be able to operate
which is great for me because I'm more
of a maak monkey and you're a more
sophisticated ape oh I see I see I think
like you have to be more sensitive you
have you have to have you know I mean
I've got fat fingers you know I've got
clumsy fingers you know and the Android
is is too well maybe you need to soften
your touch what I would do is go into
the most sort by most
popular um because there's some older
ones that I really like and it generally
scales with so I'll do the um this one
the hypnosis for clearing subconscious
um negativity that's an hourlong one the
sleep and anxiety one 40 minutes but
those you listen to as you fall asleep
as you fall asleep we're going to do
this now yeah yeah let's listen to it
and I have created this hypnosis
recording for for you to help you and
this is the voice how often does the
voice pop up and at the same time you
don't watch it you just listen to your
anxiety now one of the most important
things to remember at the outset of any
self hypnosis experience is to know and
understand that hypnosis people really
should know that stage hypnosis is about
the hypnotist getting you to do things
you wouldn't normally do MH self
hypnosis which is what we're talking
about here revery in this is about you
getting your brain into the state that
you want and um again I mean there's a
ton of neuroimaging data and work on
trauma and Pain Relief and our labs are
working on this with David Spiegel's lab
I I really encourage people to explore
nsdr and if this feels a little too
wacky and out there then I would just
put in nsdr into YouTube and there's
some good nsdr scripts yes s by the way
uh S as a is a fan of your podcast no
it's okay we don't need to play so I
don't know him and um uh but I would
yeah a lot of uh media Outlets picked up
on his love of nsdr and I have to
imagine running Google involves a lot of
juggling a lot of of he's one of the
great CEOs because everybody loves him
everybody loves him have you interviewed
him no but we'll we'll do the interview
eventually so this annoying thing about
me being a stickler for three hours CEOs
don't seem to understand like not
understand but it it's scheduling so
what happens sers said yes definitely
let's do it I'm a fan of the podcast he
a fan of yours and and and then it goes
to his executive assistant like oh let's
find a slot and then they immediately
think all right well 1 hour is good 45
minutes 90 minutes by Zoom 90 minutes
yeah right well no they know in person
I'm sticking on that but like it's like
no we need more and it's so hard to to
do you still travel to do your podcast
or generally no most people come down
here most people uh but for certain
situations obviously um like if you're
in prison
right or you're ahead of if you get out
on work for a l people have anklets so
that they can go to on Lex Freedman pod
it probably happen have you ever been in
a
prison no you know uh either visitation
or on the inside from my hike I can see
s Quenton it's really weird that San
Quenton and Alcatraz you know Bay Area
beautiful everyone thinks you know like
there's the bay and there's alcatra and
S Quenton sitting right there does that
make you feel um you know it's amazing
how easy it is to overlook that they're
there and forget that they're there but
when I drive by S Quenton I I think
about it um I also think about the
people who are in there who might be
innocent I've seen some of those
episodes on Rogan and elsewhere and
Amanda Knox talks a lot about this right
whether or not you believe her story or
not I happen to believe her story uh
personally based on what I know um what
you know I'm sure there are people
disagree with me I think to myself what
it must be like to be in a cell and know
in your heart's heart you didn't do
it you know I mean I can't think of I
can't think of many things worse I can't
think of many things worse that's so
clearly unjust but life is full of
unjust things like this uh cruel
things happen all the time you lose a
loved one for no good reason you lose
your
job um you lose your
home you I've been talking to a lot of
refugees now and uh the war in Ukraine
has really focused my mind to how much
suffering there is in the world and so
just cruel things happen all the time
and and and people kind
of there's this suffering and you you
kind of go on you stick to the people
really close to you they still love all
around you traumatic events kind of
focus your mind on the like very
practical like okay how do we solve the
problem how do we escape let's Sol like
survival food shelter Focus remember
that book um All Quiet on the Western
Front by World War I there's this line
in there I forget what it is about how
war is like the smell of a skunk like a
little bit is actually a little is
slightly um there's something slightly
delicious of it is what it says in the
in the book um I happen to like the
smell of like ferrets and skunks and
things I had a pet ferret when I was a
kid and I like that musky scent people
most people just it's repulsive to them
it's actually a gene believe it or not
some people have the gene that makes
that the musky scent repulsive some
people love it um let me ask you this
there's another Gene this is a fun one
um microwave popcorn smells good neutral
or disgusting to you good very good
there are people who have a gene that
leads them to the perception that the
smell of microwave popcorn that you find
is good it smells like putrid vomit to
them it's a particular Gene variant and
they can smell certain elements within
the microwave popcorn um it's pretty
it's prominent in France the uh this
Gene and um so in Laboratories where uh
you have a lot of French people it's
often said like you're not allowed to
make microwave popcorn it smells putrid
disgusting you know so a lot of it's in
the perception of the beholder right uh
but okay we before I leave the nsdr is
uh focus in general
you said it's for shifting mind States
is there advice you have for how to
achieve focus on a task yes first of all
we have to distinguish between
modulators and mediators and I'll do
this very briefly there are a lot of
things that will modulate your state of
focus but they don't directly mediate
your sense of focus so for instance if
right now a fire alarm went off in this
building it would modulate our attention
we would get up and leave it would be
very hard to do what we're doing with
that banging in the background at least
at
first so it's modulating Focus but it's
not really involved in the mechanisms of
Focus right in the same way being well
rested when you sleep your autonomic
nervous system that adjusts states of
alertness and focus and calm works
better than when you're sleep deprived
so if you're sleeping better you're
going to focus better so I always answer
this way uh to a question like this
because the best thing that anyone can
do for their mental health physical
health and performance and athletic or
cognitive Endeavors or creative
Endeavors is to make sure that you're
getting enough quality sleep enough of
the time for you and that's going to
differ we could talk about what that
means now in terms of things that
mediate focus without getting into the
description of mechanisms because we
have podcasts about
that it's very clear that mental focus
follows visual Focus provided that
you're a cited
person much of the training that's being
done now in China to teach kids to focus
better literally has them stare at a
Target blinking every so often but
really training themselves to breathe
calmly and maintain a tight visual
aperture when you read you have to
maintain a tight visual aperture you're
literally scrolling like a highlighter
in your mind's eye right it's kind of
obvious once you hear it so for people
that have problems focusing sleep
well learn to dilate and contract your
visual field consciously this can be
done if you practice it a little bit and
then be I said before it is very hard to
get into a state of focus like a step
function immediately like snapping your
fingers what you can do is you can pick
any object but ideally an object at
roughly the same distance placed at
roughly the same distance to which
you're going to do that work and stare
at it you're allowed to Blink and as
your mind starts to drift every once in
a while to understand that's normal but
try and narrow your visual aperture and
bring that into your visual field so
that that's the most prominent thing
kind of like portrait mode in your phone
this would look very different in
portrait mode than it would in just a
standard photograph mode and then after
doing that for 30 to 60 seconds moving
into the work that you're about to do
and really Encourage Yourself to do that
if you're somebody who's low vision or
no vision you're going to use your ears
to do this Braille readers have trouble
focusing sometimes because they feel
other stuff and they hear other stuff so
you you learn to adjust that aperture
consciously and then of course there are
the pharmacologic tools just enough
caffeine but not too much right um we've
talked about white noise Brown Noise
music or no music really varies but it's
very clear that binaural beats of 40
hertz can shift the brain into a
heightened state of focus and cognition
so if you're going to use binaural beats
which should definitely be used with um
headphones and there are a number of
free apps out there and sources uh 40
htz seems to be the frequency that best
supports the brain shifting into a
particular can you give us the some some
some some vinal beats yeah so you're
going to look you'd want to find a uh an
app that offers 40 Herz I think
brainwave allows you to um slide bar up
to the particular frequency that you
want and I should say that um there are
other frequencies that are interesting
but 40 HZ binormal beat seems to be the
one that there's the most quality
research on so it's like a it's like a
beat um but you're you're saying there's
a lot of mixed science on the on the
white noise and brown noise you really
should be doing this with headphones
because binaural beats are best
accomplished by feeding two different
frequencies to the two ears and then you
have What's called the this brain stem
area that reads out what are called
inter oral time differences and then it
extracts the the the Delta essentially
turn it
up and then in other things that can
enhance Focus so you know the
pharmacology around this is pretty
interesting things that tickle the
dopamine pathway and the acetylcholine
pathway they work yeah um there's your
rlin your adderal your mod which are
prescription and there's a lot of of
non-prescription use of those
prescription drugs not so much in my
generation but in people 35 and younger
you know dat I hear all the time from
day Traders and programmers and stuff
and kids that play video games a lot of
riddle and Aderall use I think that
unless it's prescribed by a doctor for
specific purpose of ADHD I don't think
people should go that route frankly hits
the dopamine system way too hard also
has a number of negative effects on um
sexual side effects all sorts of things
that you just wouldn't want there are a
few compounds like Alpha GPC um 300 Mig
to 600 migs of alpha GPC with a cup of
espresso if you're well rested you're
like a laser for 90 minutes maybe two
hours but then it's going to taper off
and you have to just recognize that and
then there's this whole world of neut
Tropics now and people trying to figure
out the racetams
paracetamol ethylamine combined with
this and you know it's not quite in the
place where you'd like it to be there
are a few companies that are doing this
better than others we talk about some of
these on the podcast but um I would
always start with behavioral tools and
then consider pharmacology and and then
I suppose the the other thing for focus
is um there these this is a little more
esoteric but uh we covered this in an
episode on workplace optimization um
where you place your screen is important
staring down at a screen is not going to
be as effective as placing it at eye
level or above you when the eyes are up
literally your eyes are directed forward
or up the brain stem centers is for
alertness are activated when your eyes
are down it's actually you're you're
sort of it's like being pulled
underwater a little bit in the autonomic
arousal sense it's you're closing your
eyes I mean um is one it reflects the
brain stem centers that are active
becoming less or for act for alertness
excuse me becoming less active but
there's a really cool effect that's
active in this room right now which is
that there have been some really
interesting studies that when people
work in small compact spaces or wear a
hoodie or a hat that can also improve
focus like blinders on a horse for
obvious reasons now based on what I said
before but
also analytic work or the kind of work
where there's a correct answer that
you're seeking is best supported by
these kind of low sealing environments
whereas there's something called the
cathedral effect which is when you work
in an outdoor environment or a high
ceiling environment it lends itself to
kind of pun intended kind of loftier
ideas and more creativity and that
probably has to do with the fact that
there's a natural tenden a reflex to
expand your visual field in these high
ceing
environments expansion of the visual
field changes the way the brain works in
the time domain you're engineering and
biology oriented uh listeners will
understand this for the and music for
those that don't the best way to think
about it is when you have a narrow Focus
portrait mode on your phone or you're
very alert you are fine slicing life in
time it's like a um think of it as a
high frame rate like you're shooting in
slow motion when you have a uh when you
dilate your your view you're taking
bigger time bins and the one way to just
let this hopefully land home is that if
you've ever had a really exciting day or
podcast interview or experience of any
kind your system is flooded with
dopamine and norepinephrine alertness
and motivation and all this excitement
it seems like it goes by very very fast
and yet when you think back to that it
seems like a lot happened this happened
then that happened now think about
waiting in the doctor's office in a
blank waiting room with no interesting
art on the walls it feels like it goes
by very very slow dopamine and norup
andrine are at all-time low and yet when
you think back on that experience it's
as if nothing happened because you were
you were parsing time differently so
those are the roughly the tools and the
and the neurochemicals around time
perception in the time domain uh there's
a wonderful book I'm forgetting the
title so wonderful I forget the title by
Dean um buano from UC CLA I think it's
called the brain is a time machine that
talks about this expansion and
contraction of the time domain and what
you can do to leverage it for work and
creativity focus and so yeah it's
fascinating that I think one way to
define Focus for me is uh to the
experience the feeling of focus is
losing track of time is getting to a
place where you're no longer
op operating in time well and you
mentioned being you know kind of uh
cramming for for something well you'll
release a lot of adrenaline and you'll
it is true you can get a lot done under
pressure because of the way that you're
slicing time you don't actually have
more time it's that you're finally in a
brain state that lends itself well to
parsing information really quickly now
if we ramp up your level of stress
enough it's definitely a you know it's a
more or less normal distribution we get
you stressed enough it's hard to
remember anything you're not parsing
time well but in that middle range
almost every study shows the higher
levels of autonomic arousal meaning or
epinephrine adrenaline in your system
the more effective you are at things and
we know we always hear stress and
adrenaline it's just bad bad bad but my
colleague Ali Chrome at Stanford has
done these beautiful studies where if
you just educate people on how
adrenaline makes them sharper thinkers
they become sharper thinkers if you
educate them on the fact that stress
makes your cognition worse their
cognition gets worse this is why I don't
wear a sleep tracker if you tell people
they slept poorly you're recovering
score sucks they naturally perform less
well the next day than if you tell them
your recovery score is high and so I
don't have anything against those
companies but I in fact I we use some of
their technology can be very useful in
certain contexts but you want to
determine your your mindset around these
things and if you tell yourself hey
deadlines make me sharp pressure makes
me sharp you will perform better so
Stress and
Anxiety what what is that and can it be
leveraged for good absolutely stressing
look whether or not you get into a cold
ice bath or a or a hot sauna so hot you
want to get out or you get hit Square in
the face with something over text that
you really didn't want to hear or
see it's adrenaline it's just adrenaline
and so your subjective readout of that
and what it means is really important
and you can just channel that well you
can if you if you agree with the
following statement which I do and many
people do because the data support it
which is Ali Chum statement not mine
which is she directs the mindbody lab at
Stanford she's brilliant by the way um
brilliant Harvard trained Yale trained
trained licensed clinical psychologist
also tenear professor she's a uh a
Olympian uh no excuse me a division one
athlete in gymnastics and uh martial
arts and her dad um is a longtime
martial arts trainer he's done work with
special forces he's amazing human being
and very humble very kind lovely woman
and Professor scientist she says
anything that you do and experience but
especially
stress is the consequence of that thing
and what you believe about that thing
and so if you consume a lot of
information about the powers of
stressful states to bring out your best
you will perform better if you consume a
lot of information about the power of
stress to Cripple you you will perform
worse there's absolutely no question the
data are striking and this is not growth
mindset
this is just simply what sorts of what
do you believe about stress based on
the dominant knowledge that you're
consuming about it so that's why it's
fun to watch David goggin Here We Go
Again David or Joo or or Joe or someone
put or Cam Haynes you know put out this
information about or Ryan Hall who ran
for Stamford and then now is like into
the powerlifting thing and running you
know and there are others too of course
when you start to consume a lot of that
information it's not just inspiring it
actually changes your perception of what
your own stressful States mean they you
can actually get better from stress if
you're in the ocean of knowledge that
stress grows you if you're in the ocean
of living in the ocean of knowledge I
was thinking like a pool in the summer
you got the kitty pool the kids all
peeing in it presumably you got the
diving thing you got the high dive and
all that if you believe that the
experience of belly flopping off the
high dive is going to make you a better
diver in some sense it at least in this
analogy it will
whereas if you feel that it's just the
most embarrassing thing ever and it's
going to Cripple your ability to get out
in the dive in front of anybody ever
again well you're you're right about
that too yeah we uh actually talk with
Carl about depression all those kinds of
things that there there could be these
what are commonly seen as negative
Journeys they could be when
reframed can be used you know one of the
reasons I enjoy our friendship so much
is that you bring this Russian thing you
know which I don't really understand it
at a deep level how could I I'm not
Russian but um but this mindset like
that there's pain in life when I watched
that Hedgehog in the fog cartoon I
thought no wonder Russians go the way
they do this is the most it's so sad
it's beautiful in Sab it's so sad
whereas out here it's like Sesame Street
and you know my mother would not let me
watch Sesame Street when I was a kid yes
she thought it was too chaotic too
chaotic too chaotic she was like it's
too chaotic going on Captain Kangaroo we
were allowed and then uh Mr Rogers we
were allowed I never really liked shows
I like doing things in outside in the in
the yard um I was trying to trap all the
animals I didn't want to watch stuff on
TV but you know Hedgehog in the fog is
enough to turn any kid into a a thinker
and a philosopher and a poet here we go
I fell in love with this when when you
showed look it even walks with its arms
behind its back so for people don't know
and we're watching little Clips here to
get into and it's it's a
Hedgehog that is wandering about in this
fog at
night and can't even see a lamp the fog
is so dense and there's a there's a
feeling of
searching and then there's a there's a
horse that speaks from from a distance
words of wisdom some people actually
told me that they believe that's God
that's supposed to represent God I
always thought it was a motherly Voice
or a voice a a voice of Conformity that
wants you to return to safety and here's
a the Hedgehog is searching for
something that's in him for the unknown
to explore the unknown and ultimately as
it
um as the cartoon unrolls it's he
discovers a friend in a bear and he also
discovers a lifetime passion for looking
up at the stars and the Curiosity of
exploring what is the there and I see
that as science as exploring the mystery
and also I see that as Brave to explore
the mystery given all the uh uncertainty
all around you but there is a Melancholy
the whole sound of it the feel of it the
look of it it was um it just
captures both The Melancholy and the
Wander of
childhood which is like there's a
loneliness to it like nobody understands
me
uh that's there that that children can
can can feel cuz you're you're trying to
figure out my favorite character right
there I love the owl I love the owl the
owl shows up every once in a while I
love the owl sorry I I interrupted you
again there's non secter it means you're
interested 70% of the time the other 30%
you're just an asshole so you have to
figure out which so I'm told the uh
there's nonsecular Parts in this cartoon
it's it's voted is one of the greatest
cartoons of all time short short little
films documentary filmmakers it's a it
is um you know in the Soviet Union in in
a lot of sort of authoritarian
regimes there's channels to communicate
difficult ideas to people and you figure
out those channels and in the Soviet
Union one of those channels was uh
children's cartoons so actually they're
very much for adults yeah I I like that
um in some countries not so much in the
US uh children are treated with more
respect for their intelligence you know
that and not constantly getting this
driil of of just kind of moronic
explosions and whistles and bells and
the the voices that um just kind of you
know children obviously are children and
need to be their brains are young and
plastic and need to be um treated and
nurtured uh as such but they but they
have an intelligence and I think that um
um you treat them like morons and and
they're going to behave like morons you
treat them as you know people who can uh
consume information and make sense of it
in their own way and that's what they're
going to do they have a seriousness of
looking at the world I love people like
uh uh that talk with children like
they're adults with this like you're as
if you're talking to Minnie Einstein
because you're like really uh they're
asking some big questions and I think uh
I mean people sometimes
uh speak of me in this way like how dumb
is this childlike person but like no no
there's intelligence in these dumb
simple questions in like a that a child
asks and I always love those questions
the Simplicity but also the depth of the
those those questions the the reason I
started watching your podcast was you
did an episode early on with Ray Doo
yeah and the first maybe the first but a
question that you definitely asked him
was you just said what is money and his
answer was fantastic it's a it's a
superb question and he gave a superb
answer and I never would have thought to
ask that question and it's it's the
question and it was the question to tee
things off with um so simple questions
that get right to the heart of the
matter you know and kids aren't often
putting the same uh cultural filters and
um you know they're not kids kids gen
generally aren't concerned about getting
cancelled either right um so they'll ask
the question that no one else is willing
to ask and they're not concerned about
the how uh dumb the question sounds I
find the most fascinating question is
just really really simple and it is a
bit embarrassing to ask those simple
questions of what like what is well
you're asking them for all of us so
please ask them um I think that question
what is money is crucial and I think the
simple questions are the most obviously
the most interesting one I got ask you
about you had awesome podcast I mean I
can ask you questions about basically
all your podcast people should
definitely listen to huberman lab but uh
with with Andy Gap in the conversation
uh he talked about strength and muscle
building all that kind of stuff he's an
encyclopedia yeah and he also works with
a lot of UFC fighters and he works with
he has a lab that includes a gym and so
he works on endurance and powerlifting
and also hypertrophy training Etc but he
also does muscle biopsy so he runs the
full spectrum and he's a full tenure
professor and he does all the stuff so
he's he's a really unique um person in
this whole Fitness landscape because
there are a lot of pts out there there
are a lot of kinesiologists there are a
lot of people studying nutrition and
sports training but he I think he has
the among the people out there he's at
least in the top five probably within
the top three of people that really have
their arms around the full extent of
what's possible with with training and
um and he works with the UFC performance
center well I mean he just had a very
systematic way of describing things that
was really nice you know um skill speed
power strength uh hypotrophy so muscle
mass right endurance all kinds of and
then the philosophical of like
adaptation how to overload stuff all
that very is there stuff I I'll ask you
about ice bath and sauna which was
surprising to me there is there stuff
you took away from that convers
ation like
principles uh about how to get strong
how to build muscle mass that like
broaden and and deepen your
understanding of that task definitely
and I'll do these in bullet points
because if people want the logic behind
them and the mechanism they can listen
to that episode it's a really good
episode I'll start with heat and cold
really quickly and just say that avoid
cold immersion so ice baths and being in
cold water up to the neck uncomfortably
cold Within the four hours after a a
training session that's designed to
evoke an adaptation either endurance
hypertrophy or strength because the
inflammation that you experience from a
hard endurance workout or from a hard
strength or a hard hypertrophy workout
is the stimulus by that you're going to
adapt to the cold water immersion
reduces inflammation and can short
circuit some of that after four hours
you're probably okay but if you can do
it a different day or you can do it
before those sessions that's better Heat
however can be done immediately after
training and it's probably beneficial
because of the way that it dilates the
vascular system and deliver peruses the
muscles and ligaments Etc with more
nutrients and I should just mentioned
that was a crucial piece of information
it's a little bit surprising was it
surprising to you absolutely because I
actually the way I posed the question to
him about cold was I hear that getting
into an ice bath or a cold water
immersion after training can reduce
hypertrophy but I'm guessing it's not
that big of a deal and he said no it is
a big deal it will short circuit your
progress now for that are only
interested in performance who are doing
a lot of workouts and trying to recover
but not trying to grow muscle get
stronger or build endurance then it
makes sense to do cold because like
skill development or something skill
development or you're an athlete in
season you know so you have to what's so
great about Andy is he really points out
the specific ways to train given your
specific goals so for getting swole stay
out of the ice bath after a workout
there you go Le is always making fun of
the Meatheads I love it um I put myself
in the Meathead category only because I
don't do a real sport now I work out and
I run um which is I'm an aspiring meat
head okay so one of these days I'm going
to get back to jiujitsu or I'm going to
get to Jiu-Jitsu now in terms of
training he has this beautiful 3x5
concept for strength pick three
exercises compound exercises multi-joint
movements do them for do three to five
exercises for three to five repetitions
per set rest 3 to 5 minutes and do that
three to five times per week and for
details you can again look to the
episode It's Time stamped but what's
interesting about this is three to five
times a week is a lot for a muscle group
squatting five times a week for five
reps meaning you're working pretty heavy
meaning you're close to failure but not
failure on for strength
generally what Andy taught me is that
people who are training mostly for
strength can do these low rep type
regimens frequently because most of the
adaptation is neural and because you're
not pushing to failure in most cas
you don't get that sore and so it's the
motor neurons getting the muscle fibers
to contract more intensely or with more
efficiency in other ways that's leading
to these strength gains and this is why
powerlifters can train every day or five
days a week or four days a week for
hypertrophy I learned from Andy that the
repetition range can be pretty broad
you're think anywhere from six to 30
repetitions you should do 10 sets per
muscle group per week maybe even a bit
more so high volume high volume but you
have to go to failure or beyond in order
to stimulate growth why does it work at
such a great range of repetitions well
there apparently are three ways that you
stimulate hypertrophy and maybe more one
is tissue micro damage to the tissue the
other is through some sort of tension
based changes in the molecular Gene
programs of cells that lead to protein
synthesis that don't that are distinct
from damage and the other are metabolic
effects of like high repetition work of
superfusion of the muscle with blood we
know that third category exists because
people are now doing this Blood
Restriction Training where they cuff off
a muscle and they'll use a really light
weight I've done these before you can
use a 5 pound weight and do curls with
this and you're you are in pain and the
muscles are swelling out with blood it
does lead to hypertrophy but in general
you're not sore you're not doing tissue
damage and by the way don't just turn to
get it off a muscle because you have to
use the proper cuffs um because you need
the blood still to flow in One Direction
you can't just cinch it off or you
you'll potentially kill yourself if you
um get a clot or you do it wrong so get
the appropriate cuffs they're out there
and then for endurance I learned
something really cool so I I work out
basically I go to the gym every other
day on average three or four days a week
I do that but generally not two days in
a row it's workout next day I'll do
cardio next day and the cardio for me is
always a 30 to 45 minute jog kind of
zone two
cardio Andy informed me that to build
endurance while building strength and
maintaining some muscle size or even
building muscle size I would be wise to
take one day a week and add to that all
out max heart rate work for 90 seconds
at least so do 90 seconds then rest and
then maybe do another 90 second allout
Sprint I almost missed my flight going
from Los Angeles to Austin I did that
allout Sprint in the airport yesterday
so I actually cons think it's done for
me so there was a sprinting Dr huberman
thr with three Bs that's awesome cuz I
travel generally I I'll travel with a um
too much stuff um I love how you were
probably running late for a flight and
used that as an opportunity to exp well
as I was doing it I was thinking to
myself okay Andy that's a 90 second
Sprint because I got to the the security
line I finally got TSC but that's for
better that's for extending endurance
that's for yeah it it actually has some
carryover effects on on endurance if
you're doing the other stuff and then he
also said one day a week to do this
workout and I haven't done it yet maybe
we do it tomorrow it' be fun which is
you run a
mile you ask yourself how long did that
take let's say it took eight minutes
then you walk or rest for eight minutes
then you run another mile as fast as you
can and then you rest for the equivalent
period and you do that one to three
times once per week so and so as an
all-around fitness program it make you
could collapse this into something where
you say okay you're going to work out
with the weights for about an hour every
other day maybe take two days off every
once in a while maybe not you're going
to do six to 15 repetitions you're going
to push to failure on some of those not
all because some of those are designed
to build more strength you're not going
to failure and heavier some are designed
for hypertrophy higher rep and going to
failure and then on off days you're
going to jog for 30 to 45 minutes but
for two days a week you're either at the
end of your jog or whatever you're going
to do some allout Sprints for 90 seconds
and then rest and repeat and for another
day you're going to do these mile
repeats that's a pretty that's a pretty
large chunk of exercise movement but if
you kind of thread through the middle of
all that what you end up with is some
decent strength building protocols some
decent hypertrophy some cardiovascular
training that establishes the so-called
a base or a so-called base so you're not
going to get really good at anything
you're not going to become a marathoner
this way an optimizing Marathon you're
not going to optimize powerlifting
you're not going to optimize hypertrophy
but for the typical person 75% of people
75% of the time they want some muscle
they want some strength they want some
endurance and they want the capacity to
Sprint to the to the security gate
without um you know leaving a lung in
the terminal so it's like functional
stuff like your life going up the stairs
is easier moving about all the kind just
regular life yeah and I should mention
that cold showers after training don't
seem to Short Circuit the um the
training effect to the same extent that
immersion in cold water does and that
really speaks to the fact that cold
showers even though they can provide
some of the adrenaline for the Mental
effects of like oh I have a lot of
adrenaline in my system from a cold
shower and I can remain calm there's
there's utility to that it's not going
to have the same metabolic effects or
other positive effects that cold water
exposure has been shown to have and
that's unfortunate because most people
have access to cold showers not everyone
has access to a cold dunk or an ice dunk
but um here in um Austin you have this
place and know they don't pay me to say
this but I always like going to this
place whenever I'm town this place Kua
and they've got a sauna and a couple ice
baths and they even have those salt
tanks that you can float on the surface
have ice baths there they have cold
water immersion it's pretty cold still
haven't done an ice bath really I need
to yeah I need to you're rushing you
probably get in and and you won't even
what is this what's the big deal here
exactly or people pay for this I did a
post right of you as a baby yeah it's an
you know I had to go deep to get that
photo of Lex um in a bassinet in the
snow yeah because in Russia they
actually did this for a long time they
thought that it and indeed it does build
the immune system to expose babies to
the cold I don't I still don't know
where you got that photo and then you
were able to find exactly the right it
was it was great it's great resech you
didn't have a tie on but you had all the
look and seriousness that you do now so
it's clearly nature nurture clearly you
were born with that what about sauna he
does say that it's good to do heat so
there's three ways you can do sauna that
I can just toss out as like brief things
if you want to get a really big growth
hormone release for sake of metabolism
fat loss you're training really really
hard in Jiu-Jitsu and you want to
recover you don't want to sauna too
often because the study that um
identified this massive 16-fold increase
in growth hormone they had people do
this it's crazy they got into okay
temperatures are 80 to 100° Centigrade
so that's 176 degrees Fahrenheit to 212
degrees Fahrenheit for 5 to 30 minutes
is the typical ranges that people work
in in these research studies
for maximum growth hor hormone release
don't do sauna more than once a week but
get into the sauna for 30 minutes as hot
as you can safely tolerate so probably
for you that'll be 210 because you're I
suspect you'll be on the high end of
things then get out for 5 to 10 minutes
no cold exposure get back in the sauna
for 30 minutes then they had them do it
again out for five minutes back for 30
minutes out for 5 minutes back for 30
minutes they had them do two hours of
sauna exposure to get that growth
hormone release now for the reduction in
likelihood of dying of a cardiovascular
event stroke or otherwise the more often
you do sauna the better so if you look
at all cause all cause mortality or
death due to cardiovascular events and
you look at sauna use frequency using
the same parameters 80 to 100 degrees
Centigrade one to seven times per week
basically the more often you get into
the sauna for 30 minutes across the week
so 30 minutes a day is better than four
times a week four times a week is better
than two times a week and two times a
week is better than one and the
reductions in mortality are really
impressive 27 if you get into a sauna
the way I just described not the two
hours a day but 30 minutes twice a week
or three times per week you reduce the
likelihood of dying of a cardiovascular
event by
27% if you do it four or more times per
week you reduce the probability of Dying
by 50% of a cardiovascular event and in
these studies they rule out other things
that people are doing smoking they even
ask them do you live in an apartment are
you in a happy relationship like they
evaluate other potentially confounding
variables now for people that don't have
access to a sauna a hot water bath or
hot tub is going to be your next best
bet and if you don't have access to that
do like the wrestlers do which is you
know put on two sets of uh sweats and a
hoodie and a and a stocking cap and wrap
yourself in Plastics underneath all that
and go for a run but don't please nobody
die of hypothermia I mean you can die of
warming up too much is this experience
um Pleasant or stressful in the way so
is it as stressful as an ice bath for
example okay great question people
always ask how cold to make the ice bath
or the cold water or the shower you want
it to be uncomfortably cold meaning you
want to feel like I really want to get
out but you can safely stay in and
that's going to vary by person and
experience with it experience yeah with
the sauna it's the same thing how hot to
make it well don't kill yourself
obviously um be smart if you're pregnant
you shouldn't be doing this anyway um
but it's very clear that what you need
is the release of something called
dorphin we have endorphin which makes us
feel good it binds to these mu opioid
receptors in the body you have dorphin
which is the terrible feeling that you
get when you're in really hot
temperatures it's also the terrible
effect that alcoholics feel when they
are in withdrawal you feel agitated you
want to get out it's really unpleasant
it's dorphin binding to the So-Cal Kappa
opioid receptor is that's what you're
trying to trigger when you do that a
number of things happen you set off heat
shock proteins that go repair broken
proteins and misfolded proteins it also
makes it so that later endorphin binds
its receptor more strongly so when you
have this uncomfortable experience in
the heat you literally feel better in
real life when pleasurable events come
on when you experience them in the same
way I like to say this that when you get
into a cold ice bath or cold shower the
increase in epinephrine and dopamine is
two to 300% these are huge increases and
they last many hours this is shown
because lately I've get a little bit of
push back on Twitter that which is you
know um interesting place um people say
well that's just in mice no all the
studies I just referred to are all done
in humans men and women fairly broad age
ranges so you want to be uncomfortable
in the cold you want to be uncomfortable
in the Heat this is why I'm not a big
fan of infrared saunas cuz they only go
up to about 160
170° infrared light and far red light of
all kinds has been shown to be
beneficial for wound healing acne skin
eyes they're even guys now putting on
their testicles because it can increase
testosterone and sperm production yeah
hormone release hormone release but in
terms of the sauna you want that strong
heat stimulus yeah and then that's when
you get crawl up to the 200 Mark and so
on whenever I'm in New York and there's
also one in San Francisco although the
one in San Francisco is is clothing
optional just to warn people there's an
a place called Archimedes B is there any
scientific evidence that being naked is
beneficial in the sauna well in certain
context it leads to um child birth okay
well I'll have to read up on that I read
that some but um I I suppose it's not
required right uh for child birth but um
but in all seriousness you know in New
York I'll go to a place called Spa 88
and actually uh khabib's picture is on
the wall he goes there oh and it's a
there that one it's clothing it they
require clothing I only just say that
cuz it can be a little bit of a shock to
people sometimes if they kind of walk in
there a bunch of naked people the one in
San Francisco I if I go I'm clothed
mostly because you I run into co-workers
or things like that you know I I sort of
more uh oldfashioned in that way I
suppose but um that you like to wear
clothes or on quot work because yes yeah
yeah I mean it just to me it just seems
like you know that just be aware but but
nonetheless the Bas have very hot saunas
because they're russian-owned and in New
York there's one on the Lower East Side
but the Spy 88 place they have some
saunas that the moment I get into those
I have a hard time catching a full
breath it burns they've got a cold dunk
that's like a shock and then they've got
a sauna wet sauna steam room that's a
little mellower so the nice thing about
a b is you can kind of find your place
and then they do the plota where they
take the eucalyptus leaves and you can
pay someone and you basically you cover
your groin and then they beat you with
the the the the leaves and it's supposed
to bring the vasculature to the surface
I've only done it once once and frankly
I found it um to be a little bit um
unnerving I didn't really like the
experience but I I'll try and get into a
sauna as often as I possibly can which
is you know once or three times per week
and I try and do the cold exposure
shower or immersion but early in the day
CU it really wakes you up one of my
favorite things I've listened to I wish
there was a video is um listening to a
bunch of stuff with Rick Rubin and um he
did a thing with Tim Ferris like Tim fa
podcast I don't know if you've ever
heard it but he he forced him to do they
did the podcast in a sauna uhhuh and I
don't think at the time Tim feris was
adapted yeah if you're not heat adapted
it can be pretty stressful and I mean
obviously the whole experience is
stressful as a as somebody with with
microphones like what what is happening
but I just love that Tim was vulnerable
enough to kind of give themsel over to
whatever the hell this experience is and
I I'm just so happy that Rick like
pushed that kind of idea and just let's
let's do it let's that's a very Rick
Ruben kind of thing to do and we must
not we like we must do this this has to
be done a podcast that was done from a
sauna continuously would be really
interesting like you could call it like
the pressure cooker or something oh I
mean like a regular podcast yeah like
you have to sit with your guests in the
sauna um or they have to sit in the SAA
with well that was one of the
interesting things is um it was a sad
thing because I believe that there's no
video of that podcast but you could tell
there is a kind of there was suffering
on especially on Tim's part it was like
a degradation he he he started over time
not being able to put words together
correctly which he's very eloquent and
so you could see there's
like there's a struggle heat and cold
pull you down from the inside you have
to I mean there's a reason why the
screening process for um make you know
sealed seal they call SEAL training but
it's really screening and training
involves cold water is because you know
if you're in the heat too long you'll
die or damage tissue in cold you can do
it quite extensively before you die or
damage tissue but it is stressful I was
going to say one thing that um I
sometimes enjoy seeing these social
media posts where people will get into
the ice bath they'll look really stoic
like they're really tough MH um but
actually that's the Wimpy way to go
through
it when you get into cold water if you
stay very still you develop a thermal
sheath around you oh interesting that
you're warming yourself the the really
bold way is to get in and continue to
sift your arms and legs and it ends up
feeling miserably colder and then
there's no sheath you're breaking up
you're breaking up that thermal layer
and then when you get out you'll notice
a lot of people huddle or they'll
they'll put or they'll grab the towel in
general that's me I'll get back I'll get
into the sauna but if you really want to
stimulate the big increases in
metabolism you stand out there and you
dry off with with arms extended in open
air and as that water evaporates off you
it is really cold but your body is
forced to activate a number of the
warming programs related to metabolism
this is the beautiful work of a woman
named Susanna soberg who's um
Scandinavian she published this paper
last year in cell reports medicine and
so I call this the soberg principle
which is if you're doing ice and heat
for whatever reason doesn't matter if
you end on heat or cold but if you're
using cold specifically to stimulate an
increase in metabolism end with cold
that's the sobered principle and with
cold if you're alternating and then uh
if you want to do it the tough way you
let the Shivering so you just stand out
and let the water evaporate yeah I mean
if you ever weighted into a cold ocean
you know everybody's kind of like
holding themselves you know if you
really just if you let yourself extend
your limbs and move them around a bit so
you break up that thermal layer uh
that's that's the tough way to do it so
when I see people on social media
getting in and they're like really tough
and trying to look hard yeah you want to
be moving around
smiling talking moving around is way way
colder yeah are you able to talk can you
do can so you suggest the podcast in the
in the sauna how about this I propos
this since I got you do the next podcast
I'll get two so the folks from the
plunge uh maybe we could bring Lexa a
plunge he certainly uh deserves one and
uh we can go side by side coffin style
or we can face one another and we can do
well we said we should do each other's
podcast I maybe next you I can't wait to
have you back on I mean we only
scratched the surface well let's do at
least part of the next hman Lab podcast
either in I have a sauna and a cold
plunge so we could do yeah we could do
in we do a sauna and a cold plunge
version I wonder the recording how the
recording works if they recording a bit
of an echo in the son I'm sure we can
take out the Reverb uh so Sergey wants
to ask you about sex
performance uh very journalistic very
hardcore hitting questions that we have
here in the book generally or a specific
uh no he has a certain problem he needs
help with no uh generally you haven't
done an episode on sex well we did an
episode early on on sexual development
yes we've done them on optimizing
testosterone and estrogen and we touched
a little bit on the uh on libido and
somewhat on sex performance but not much
we did an episode on relationships Love
and Desire where we touched on libido
specifically so just as a quick mention
of something uh a lot of people take
ssris or anti-depressants that can
disrupt sexual function are a few
compounds like Macar root and Tonga Ali
and things like that that at least in a
few studies in humans have been shown to
offset some of the the sexual side
effects um now in terms of sexual and
then this sorry the episode on sexual
development was about how the brain and
body become organized in certain ways
how the brain becomes organized if you
have X chromosomes or Y chromosomes or
Etc so early early develop early
development mainly and the effects of
hormones later on that template we will
be doing a I'm actually putting together
a series on Sexual Health everything
from the menstrual cycle which both men
and women should understand of course um
understanding arousal understanding for
instance a lot of people don't realize
this but that um orgasm is actually the
consequence of activity in the
sympathetic meaning the stress arm of
the autonomic nervous system whereas
arousal is the consequence of the
activity of the parasympathetic the
calming aspect of the of of the aut it's
counterintuitive right it's
counterintuitive and it kind of works
like a seesaw I mean there's arousal
then there's relaxation then there's
arousal but the the um and then
immediately after orgasm and in males
ejaculation what ends up happening is
there's a rebounding of the
parasympathetic nervous system which it
leads to oftentimes people feeling very
relaxed or or falling asleep so I'm
going to do a Ser a short series on
Sexual Health that will be that will
include stuff about sexual performance
but also um some I I'm working on
getting a an expert guest who can talk
about some of the neurologic changes
that happen um as a consequence of
sexual activity and we did an episode
with uh a guy from UT Austin here David
bus who's evolutionary psychologist
talking about um we went pretty deep
into some of the uh typical and unusual
dynamics of of mating relation um
whether or not people have kids or not
and what impacts it but we're going to
do an episode episod on menopause
andropause what's very surprising is I
get a lot of questions about sexual
health from the young male
audience um which tells me that well
here's what I think it reflects I think
that women because of their menstrual
cycles early on start to talk to one
another about changes in physiology and
psychology as a function of this 28 day
cycle that they all experience sooner or
later males there's less of a
conversation and it usually arrives in
code people will say hey what should I
take to increase my testost
and I'll say well maybe nothing you know
uh what are you specifically concerned
about and then over time if you pull on
those threads a little bit you you know
you get your answer sometimes I'll just
get a direct question um but I think
that uh the psychology of all this and
in terms of jealousy and the terms of um
Notions of of uh roles in relationships
is very Dynamic right now and I'm
fascinated by this so we're going to do
a four episode series what about sexual
fantasy what uh Freudian for a second
what role does sexual fantasy have in
the human condition there's a book
called The Erotic imagination it's a
very psychoanalytic book written by a
psychoanalyst that talks about um how
well here's the uncomfortable reality
Freud was at least right about one thing
which is that the brain circuitry that
you used to develop attachments to your
caregivers mother and father or other
caregivers do not disappear when you hit
puberty they are repurposed for romantic
and sexual relations and so this is why
the whole notion of anxious attached and
secure attached you know stems from
childhood attachment patterns but it
carries over to romantic relationships
so that the relationship with your
mother has and father and father has a
or and and probably other close people
to you in your young age has a secondary
tertiary some kind of ripple effect on
how your sexuality developed like what
fantasies you might have all that oh
without question and of course early
experiences too and traumatic or
positive or or neutral the thing that's
really important to remember though in
this transfer of circuitry from one role
to another is
that and it's certainly consistent with
psychoanalysis that gender is
interchangeable sex is interchangeable
so for instance let's say you had a
wonderful relation let's say this H
let's take a hypothetical person okay
I'm truly not referring to myself let's
take a a a young woman who has a
wonderful relationship to her father and
a just absolutely terrible abusive
relationship to her mother just for sake
of
example she then goes into adulthood and
she is drawn to very
abusive men not always but let's just
use in this
example and the dynamic is exactly the
same as the dynamic she had with her
mother that's actually a common
occurrence even though in this context
she's heterosexual she's romantically
attracted to men what is seen over and
over again is that the dynamic with one
parent can be transferred onto a
romantic dynamic but it doesn't have to
be you know that if it was with the
mother then it only has to do with
relationships to women so gender is
interchangeable because these
circuitries
are pre-sexual they're laid down in our
brain before the brain has any concept
of sexual interactions it's prepubertal
excuse me and so um there are a lot of
interesting examples and data to support
this um the book attached is a pretty
interesting book by uh two psychologists
one I think is at Columbia University um
that talks about how childhood Dynamics
uh carry over to adult uh romantic
attachment so as you can tell I get
pretty alert in response to these
questions I get a lot of them relate in
this domain and they they have a lot of
impact on people and they're wondering
about they want to learn and no one
knows what other people are doing or
what's normal we kind of know deviancy
we know perversion we know the extremes
yeah we know the rules hopefully people
know the rules but you know let's just
be there are a lot of people in in the
academic community in particular at
certain East Coast Schools not to be
named that are in open relationships
this is more common now um it's not very
common but it's more common yeah and you
know obviously that's a way of bypassing
some of these more primitive emotions
about jealousy Etc and leveraging them
towards maybe even ongoing relationships
I'm not passing judgment one way or the
other I always say for condition
condition have to be met for any
discussion about about sex and sexuality
or sexual health age appropriate context
appropriate consensual and species
appropriate well that that's weird
because the the thing I'm trying to
figure out is why my sexual fantasy is
to go to uh furry orgies and have sex
with others dressed as as squirrels and
me uh the other animals so that could be
that I have to I'll see a therapist uh
about that one I'm not going to respond
to that except to say that um as long as
those four conditions are met yeah
consensual species appropriate so
there's a bunch of questions on I uh on
Instagram one of them on this topic on
relationships uh somebody suggested to
do a part three of why Lex is single
there's a running joke about this uh so
yeah why but I can answer it in part
right yeah because well partially
because you're very busy partially
because um you've decided that until
it's time you're going to wait until
it's time it's time right I mean until
it's time you're waiting and then um
you're not saving yourself from Marriage
uh I don't think but but in some sense
um yeah your your wife your future wife
is out there oh yeah yeah she's being
programmed no I uh I mean I definitely I
definitely believe that I mean first of
all I just love people and I fall in
love very easily with people with object
objects with things with with with life
with every moment and that way you're
like Oliver Sach he fell he would fall
in love with
minerals and Concepts and things like
that and so like to me this kind
of uh so relationship is more like a
commitment to one particular kind
of um object of your
love like uh it's almost like a it's
like a journey that you take on together
because also the interesting thing about
humans
is there Moment by moment a different
person day by day week by week month by
month they change they evolve there's an
ups and downs and stuff like that so
you're what you're doing is you're
saying well I'm going to explore all the
way that this human gets morphed and
changed and the what makes them cry what
makes them excited what makes them uh
lonely uh like the the the habits how
like when they form certain habits what
how they feel when those habits are
broken like the the stupid minute things
that make everyday life you're going to
be on that journey together figuring
that out just the way we're trying to
figure ourselves out when we're like
optimizing these things about diet and
health so on you're kind of doing this
uh computation together because neither
person really understands
themselves um at all and you're together
both confused about each other and you
get to almost like um a relationship is
a
chance to understand
yourself and to understand another
person like together that process is
some iterative you know the Dynamics
right I mean you're merging two nervous
systems one this was once described to
me very well by an ex-girlfriend um
who's truly brilliant she's really
brilliant um she said you know there's
four arrows this is maybe to an engineer
or like a this will makees sense there's
how you feel towards the other person
yes there's how they feel towards you
but then there's an there's an arrow
that comes back to you which is how you
feel about how they feel and then they
have an arrow of how they feel about how
you feel right this is why if someone
else is Moody or somebody else is upset
it there's one version of ourselves
where we respond to that or they respond
to us but there's another version where
we respond to that but it's also there's
a processing of what it means for us
that they're behaving that way or
feeling that way and this again leads us
back to that early attachment circuitry
because if a parent was stressed the
child's role is not to soothe the parent
in fact healthy models of parenting say
that children shouldn't actually know
how their parents feel for like the
first eight years of their life they're
not supposed to be in that mindset of
empathizing for the parent this is often
not the case but and maybe the cut off
isn't exactly eight but you get the idea
so the Dynamics of a relationship are
where the learning is because we learn
how we react to other people reacting
it's it's not not a just a two Arrow
system it's at least this four arrow
thing um but there's also the the
element of nurturing right I mean I
think that um going through life with
somebody is so much better than going
through it alone and I I never thought
I'd make that statement um so it wasn't
always obvious to you no it wasn't
always obvious to me I I've I've I've
really enjoyed wonderful relationships
um and some have been hard and and
there's been a certainly been a lot of
growth I'm on good terms with almost all
my former girlfriends um and close with
some enough that I'm I know their
spouses and I'm close with their
families and um but no it wasn't and I
think that uh when people say
relationship is hard the only really
hard part about of a good relationship
is just dealing with oneself and making
sure that you're staying in that mode of
caretaking because I do believe that if
one is mainly focused on taking good
care of the other person provided
they're also focused on taking good care
of you to some extent and we're good at
taking care of ourselves everybody
flourishes everything gets better but no
I I don't think I experienced that until
fairly recently um what do you think is
the
uh secret to a successful
relationship there isn't just one but at
the at least at in the top five
is master or at least be good
at autonomic self-regulation know how to
calm yourself down don't expect the like
looking to anything external to soothe
yourself is it puts you in a terrible
position to to be a caretaker of
yourself and other people right so learn
how to self soothe right learn how to
calm your mind steady your actions
steady your voice there are tools to do
that we talk about on the podcast but
elsewhere have that in place I also
think that
if if your main focus is on you want to
have good boundaries Etc but on tending
to the relationship doing a little bit
more than you think you ought to do if
everyone does that it it goes great I
mean I'm sometimes so positively struck
by how supported I
feel um because for many years I was
just kind of doing everything on my own
so any little thing I'm like oh my
goodness this feels huge um and also I
think the Dynamics have to be right
let's let's be really honest this is a
little bit of a tricky topic but
um there is a power dynamic in
relationships sometimes not all but in
some relationships it works much better
if one person leads and the other person
follows in other relationships it's more
mutuality works best people need to know
what they need and so knowing what you
need and what you crave is really
important and then once you do that you
can create the relationship you want
I've seen that over and over again and
people are different um but I think that
um ultimately I mean right it's it's
there's the dopamine phase of a
relationship and then there's the
serotonin phase the kind of more
mutuality coziness and sweetness there's
a great book about how to make sure that
the dopamine component and the serotonin
component so to speak go on forever and
it has to do with you know when you
first meet someone you're attracted to
them you're essentially objectifying
them you meaning not in the way people
might think you are not dependent on
them for emotional stability or survival
as you get close with somebody you
really come to depend on them and then
you tend to objectify them less and so
this the book is the name is kind of
corny but the it's written by an analyst
again it's called can love last and it's
a book about how really good strong
relationships are the consequence of
people constantly moving through this um
dependency objectification Dynamic and I
use those words in the true in the
psychological sense not in the way
they're typically thrown around nowadays
so the idea you know In some cultures
men and women will only touch for two
weeks out of the month and then for the
other two
weeks the excitement and the sensuality
and all and the sexuality is very
heightened and then they go back to this
kind of distancing now I don't think
that's feasible for most people but if
you look statistically those
relationships tend to last a very long
time with at least reported mutual
feelings of intense attraction for many
many many decades so human beings need
to learn how to at least understand and
control these Dynamics there's a lot of
divorce there's a lot of cheating
there's a lot of stuff out there it'd be
great if people could resolve some of
this stuff inside of the relationship in
my
opinion yeah and this kind of intense
attraction
I there's uh actually one of the poems
that Carl uh dth introduced me to I
think it's two English poems is the name
but the uh one of the things I find
myself for prolonged periods being
attracted to is like you notice some
kind of
magic and you keep wanting to dig to the
depth
like of that magic trying know that
person to really know a person deeply
yeah you notice something yeah early on
sure I don't know what that is but you
just notice something special and you
want to keep pulling at that thread and
you never really do well you also have
to be careful you know I get a lot of
questions from God you have to be
careful the questions you ask in a
relationship too you have to make sure
you really want that information and
it's not just about people's past right
if you ask somebody how they really feel
about something about you and they tell
you that may be soothing it may be
intensely stressful you have to be
here's one thing I know for sure for a
relationship to work you have to be
brave you can't go in there fully
protected and yet you also can't go in
there with no boundaries because you'll
end up beat up what's that quote if you
want to be a warrior prepare to get hurt
if you want to be an Explorer prepared
to get lost and if you want to be both
you know and if you become a lover
prepare to be both or something
something like that I forget this is one
of these Instagram type things that you
see passing by and you go oh that's
pretty true love Love's scary because it
takes us back to that primitive
circuitry that is as primitive and basic
as hunger thirst the desire for heat
when we're cold the desire for cold when
we're overly warm it's a it's dorphin I
mean when somebody leaves like the you
know when somebody you were attached to
leaves by death or by decision or you're
forced apart the dorphin release is
massive it is true discomfort people
feel anxiety and discomfort and moving
through that is a the hell of a process
I mean if I knew how to best break up at
a neurological level or if you just plug
yourself into a wall and reset I mean I
I'd do that episode tomorrow but we
don't have that knowledge now come on
the uh I think we've covered this before
and it's even been me memeified I think
losing love is part of the magic of love
it means you've felt something I agree
but at some point like if you've done it
enough times you know life is finite you
know it is beautiful to see these
couples that seem very much in
love despite many years despite having
been together many years yeah the way
they look at each other yeah they say
they still see the magic yeah and
they'll say we got lucky or it was it's
been hard or this and that I think
external conditions being a little
tougher is helpful for a couple hardship
I do I do because I think that you rally
you know you you and you bond with
people you know being obviously you want
to survive those conditions but um yeah
I do I think that is Bonnie and Clyde so
and they were a little a little too much
well a little too much they were
sociopaths but the uh well when two
sociopaths find fucking make you do
crazy things well normally it's
interesting normally sociopaths don't
team up because they because they
manipulate each other sociopaths sadly
are um are usually only interested in
manipulating the highly pliable or
unsuspecting um but when romantic
attraction is woven in then it gets um
really diabolical any advice on finding
the love of your life of my life this is
this is uh why alxa single response why
any
advice yeah actually this comes from a
friend of mine who is in a really
excellent marriage um with great kids
and family and high demand life it it's
a decision like at some point you just
priori you just prioritize it as
okay I'm going to make this happen one
way or another and um you don't force
the discovery of that person but I mean
I've occasionally said hey I think you
should meet this person or that person
and um well it wasn't maybe my judgment
was might have been off but it the
timing wasn't right or something
something but I think that yeah you it's
a decision and it also has to do with
life structure I mean there were years
so I when I was in graduate school I I
didn't want a girlfriend I just wanted
to be in lab and I sure I had romantic
dating interests but I wasn't going to
meet them through a committed you know
live together situation wasn't where I
was at and as a postto things were a
little different etc etc so but at some
point it's sort of like what do I want
my daily routine to look like because
ultimately a
relationship however one structures is
going to be part of your daily routine
so at the point where you're like you
know I'd really love to wake up next to
somebody and do blank and blank together
and then I'd love to work and then we
meet for dinner and then we you know
take the dog for a walk or take kids out
or whatever it happens to be take a trip
and do you have to be one has to be in
the mindset of wanting to do couple like
things people and a lot of people don't
think about it that way they they either
fall into something or they they don't
see the benefit of coupling up I think
that the pandemic um tuned people's
awareness to the fact that some things
are indeed easier on your own depends on
finances etc etc
but a lot of things are made better done
with other
people 100% but I ALS so I was very
deliberately it's an interesting way to
put it what do you want your day to look
like I think what what do you want your
day look like what you want your life to
be I was very deliberately
always uh first of all happy to be alone
like conscious thinking uh I know a lot
of friends were just unable to be alone
I'm able to be alone but I'm much
happier with another person like I'm
able to share Joy with other humans I
look forward to the day that our kids
are rolling jiujitsu and my kids are you
know hanging out with your kids and um
if that notion sounds even remotely
interesting then and fun then then it's
sort of like you kind of backpedal from
that and you go what has to happen how
you
get first engineer and think from first
principles about love Andrew you're uh
thank you for being my friend thank you
for being an amazing human being who's
so inspiring to so many people for
constantly I I told this to Carl like
one of the things that was really
refreshing um about
you is
that you uh when I tell you an idea when
I tell you a thought when I tell you
something you didn't you you don't shut
it down as a first step I saying that
that's common in a scientific Community
that's common in people around you
you're you're seeing what's the goal
there you get excited you get excited
together and that's how you can really
uh have a great friendship and a great
great great stuff together so I I'm
deeply grateful for that and just uh for
connecting so many interesting people
together you're doing an amazing job man
and uh thank you for existing thank
thank you for being you thank you for
talking today and uh next time I'll see
you in the sauna and yeah Beth well I
want to say several things first of all
thank you for having me on again it's an
honor and a pleasure I don't say that
formally i' really truly mean it I only
the H Lab podcast as I always say only
exists because you gave me the
suggestion and I'm so grateful that you
did so thank you and for doing what you
do like you you are brave and you're
first man in and you're just continue to
do it just what as my postto advisor
used to say whatever you're doing just
keep going and then in terms of our
friendship I mean I think uh you know
and if you uh if you don't I'm going to
just keep telling you anyway by texting
in person you're an amazing friend uh
there's deep trust there's immense
respect and uh I love you brother I love
you too man we did it thanks for
listening to this conversation with
Andrew huberman to support this podcast
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description and now let me leave you
with some words from Ralph Waldo Emerson
it is one of the blessings of old
friends you can afford to be stupid with
them I look forward to doing just that
in the many years to come of friendship
and fun conversations with Andrew thank
you for listening and hope to see you
next time