Kind: captions
Language: en
the following is a conversation with
Mark Norman a New York comedian who has
a way with words that is often both dark
and hilarious let there be a warning
dear friends to proceed with caution and
to we protection you may in fact need it
he has a special on his YouTube called
out to lunch and a new special on
Netflix as part of the standup season 3
Series I recommend you watch this is Al
Le Freedman podcast to support it please
check out our sponsor answers in the
description and now here's my
conversation with Mark
Norman I asked Tim Dylan about Bowski
first so let me continue on that
tradition and ask you about something
that Charles Bowski said about love are
we rolling yes oh jeez no hello no
nothing no I thought I was
robotic Bukowski said love is a fog that
burns away with the first daylight of
reality so uh Mark Norman let me first
ask you about love uh what are your
thoughts about love you talk about your
relationships quite a bit do you think
love can last I do but I think it's work
everybody wants love to be this
prepackaged perfect euphoric thing but
it you
gotta it's like a a good body you know
we're all born with a good body but you
got to keep it in shape and it's the
same with a a loving relationship I
think you uh nobody wants to do the work
that's the problem you talked about I
think you told a story about being
unfaithful to a previous girlfriend or
something like that I think the story
goes
that you were like drifting apart who
were you talking to Bert Cher maybe or
something like that yeah High School
sweethearts dated for like 12 years and
then so that wasn't love anymore that
was more like relation that was like it
was Comfort it was routine and uh we
just slipped into that kind of married
life autopilot world and uh
I tried to break up I think and it
didn't take was one of those things our
lives were just so baked in and then I
think I uh cheated and she caught me and
it was ugly and then we went to therapy
to try to work it out but it's it's much
like a car that gets into a wreck the
door just never closed the same you know
what I mean yeah so what are your
thoughts about then um commitment like
outside of Love marriage I think it's an
Antiquated idea I think it's kind of
silly and unrealistic
and I think we're coming out of that as
we get all polyamorous and non-binary
and queefy and all this stuff I think
we're slowly moving away from that but
uh I think a lot of the ladies more
majority women like marriage like the
idea of it like I'm in I'm I'm a fiance
now or whatever you call it I'm engaged
and I mean she is just wo going Hog Wild
she's loving it she's got the dress
thing pick a venue flower and she's
she's deep in where I feel guilty cuz
I'm just like ah
jeez is it planned already when the
wedding you see squid game I'm just
living life uh yeah it's it's uh planned
it's in New Orleans I'm from there and
uh it's next
year are you married no single Virgin of
course yeah I can't imagine I bet you'd
be great in bed you're ripped you got
the best hairline in
podcasting yeah I don't know I haven't
tried yet so we'll have to see all right
well let me know pretty big hog on you
yeah I could see you packing a crazy
crazy tool downtown mhm that matters for
the girls apparently yeah that's all I
hear
about okay New Orleans you grew up in
New Orleans yeah born and
raised T outside the French Quarter you
ever been yeah don't remember it oh you
drink yeah I drink of course I drink I
don't know I can't tell if you have fun
no not really but Russ I mean Russian of
course I drink V all that kind of stuff
Russi yeah yeah yes got to know beer was
just labeled an alcoholic beverage in
2011 fun fact what do you mean in Russia
it was just drinks it was just like
apple juice before it finally got
declared legally as an alcoholic
beverage which means you can regulate it
that kind of thing I guess so yeah see
that's where your brain goes yeah I just
go all these fucking ruskies I didn't
even know there's rules about drinking
this is good I'm learning about Russia
from you so um what's the difficult
memory experience from childhood in New
Orleans that uh made you the man you are
today I don't know if it made me the man
but uh gez I had a lot of uh scuffles in
the neighborhood with I was the white
kid in the neighborhood so I was
automatically the odd man out the
minority the weirdo the Dork the dweeb
The Honky so uh just a lot of memories
of like getting slapped in the face by
guys and just having to take it cuz
there's like five guys there and they'd
be like oh look you not even fight back
and you're like what am I going to do
hit you and then get beat up by these
guys so a lot of that stuff was uh big
bummer growing up got robbed all the
time lost a lot of bicycles had a
bicycle taken from under me that was
pretty brutal uh these kids pulled up
you know they're like 17 and I was 13
and I had a face paint on like I had a
not black face but I was at a summer
camp
and I had a a rainbow face painted on me
we were helping kids that day so I let
them put paint on me and uh so now I'm
riding home what a mark what a what a
goober I am I'm riding home and these
guys see me a mile away I'm a Sitting
Duck and they go we can take his bike
he's got a fucking Rainbo on his cheek
so uh they just go hey you like cut in
front of you they go let me try your
bike I go I'm good I'm good I knew what
they wanted and uh they go let me try
the bike and then they just pushed me
and took the bike so stuff like that was
really shaping the insecurity the
selfworth did it uh cuz I've been mugged
when I was younger too really yeah is it
changes your view of human nature a
little bit for sure you go wow I didn't
know people could be this mean is cool
yeah inconsiderate I'm I'm always
worried about did I fart too much am I
annoying am I pissing this guy off but
what a way to live just I want the bike
I'm taking it fuck his feelings for me
that quickly turned into um realizing
that that's just a temporary phase that
those folks are in like they there's
they have a capacity to be good for some
reason for me that was a motivation to
see can we discover can can we
incentivize them to find like a better
path in life like I I wasn't like all
like I don't know Gandhi about it you
know of course I was pissed and all
those kinds of things but I don't know
it
seemed like just the kind of thing you
might do when you're younger you hope
but this is adult crime obviously yeah I
know but yeah exactly and then it
solidifies and then you're beyond saving
at some point but it's like there's
always there's always an opportunity to
uh to make a better uh life for yourself
to to become a better version of
yourself yeah and I remember coming home
crying with no bike and my mom she's my
parents are like liberal to a fault yeah
you know where they were like oh well
they need it they're poor kids in the
neighborhood you're like all right but I
I also like have a bicycle that uh I
ride around you know and I also like to
live in an area that's not just you know
riddled with uh theft and vandalism but
they were like ah they need it and then
it was a it was a moot point we just
moved on so I remember very young being
like all right I gotta figure my shit
out okay so you said you were beat up
quite a bit like bullying and stuff
pushed around I was never hospitalized
or anything but you know you get a black
guy here and there and a bloody nose
stuff like that and it was just the
outnumbered thing the violence didn't
really bother me because you're just
kids you're boys yeah but it was
the predatory let's get him you know we
can take him down he's you know he's an
easy target that's what kills you yeah
the mental
part yeah you know until you actually
said I didn't realize cuz I've been in
what do you call them scuffles mhm and
uh there's just one that stands out to
me where yeah let's hear it fatty bring
it on and you do jiujitsu and all that
stuff right yeah see the guns through
the suit you like John Wick all right uh
well I used to have now you're going to
start making fun of me I used to have
long hair for for like a couple years I
was in a band playing music and stuff
like that and there's um like most of
the fights I've been in were basically
oneon-one maybe a little bit like a
little extra stuff but not outnumbered
and this one particular particular
time I've learned a lot of lessons but
one of them was I there was a fight
started between me and this other person
and then uh his buddies I guess were
there uhoh and they is opposed to like
breaking it up or letting it happen um
one of them grabbed my hair it's the
first time anybody grabbed like used it
my hair in a fight which I've since then
realized that that's actually a really
powerful grip and a powerful weapon oh
very vulnerable of you in my uh head got
pulled back and they pulled me down to
the like I couldn't do anything it was
so I remember being exceptionally
frustrated yes like that was the feeling
like I can't do anything here I'm like
trapped and then they they were just
like kicking me and hitting me and stuff
like that and the outnumbered part of it
um cuz I always kind of remember the
trapped part because I just hated from a
fighting grappling
perspective how like like the feeling
was this isn't fair yes that's what it
is it's a deep deep unfairness yeah that
you just can't you can't win the mob
wins yeah the mob wins scary stuff and
but it makes a makes a man out of you in
a weird way that it builds character you
realize life isn't fair early and you
you go on from there so there's
something there and look at you today
they're probably uh you know eating out
of a dumpster at a Crispy Cream and
you're here got eight podcast you you're
doing great you're talking to Giant
Titans of the industry no I I I do
remember returning home that night I
mean that you said you were crying
that's really formative like oh yeah
that's the point in which you get to
decide what do I make of this moment I
mean especially when you're younger
maybe it's not presented to you that way
but like some of the greatest people in
history were bullied in these kinds of
ways and they made something of
themselves In This Moment Like bullied
by life in some kind of way it's it's
like an opportunity for growth it's um
it's weird but like hardship even in
small doses is like an opportunity for
growth totally I mean look at Richard
PRI they say he's labeled as the Best
comedian of all time grew up in a horror
house watch his mom get plowed by these
guys and in the middle of Indiana I want
to say and just who had a harder life he
would suck dick for drugs all this stuff
growing up beat
up and uh then the weird thing is oops
sorry that's my birth control alarm and
then the uh the whole world is like
trying to get rid of bullying but we
still do bullying but now it's accepted
bullying it's very strange so you're uh
you're proponent of beating kids up is
that what you say yes and sex with them
all right but no uh I just think it's
part of life and it's horrible it it's
like rain you got to have it look a
rainy day is a bummer you know but you
need it and uh I think it's similar to
that what was your relationship like
with your uh your mom your dad what are
some memorable moments with them what
did you learn from them good parents the
giving thoughtful
uh a little out to lunch you know they
were Workaholics so there was it was
hard to get a lot out of them and my dad
was kind of an angry Dad I think he just
had like a weird childhood and he's just
trying to make it he's trying to provide
but it's hard and we live in this
horrible neighborhood and we're getting
robbed all the
time um so life was kind of coming down
on him all the time so then he'll take
it out on you or whoever he would snap
but great parents they cared they put us
first um but there wasn't a lot
of I don't you see you know you ever go
to a friend's house as a kid and there's
like a picture of a ski trip and you're
like ski trip what the hell is that
about you know it wasn't out of that
and smart very smart people but I don't
know how well they were at uh
socializing so you never like bonded
with them like on a deep human level
some Bonnie but rarely deep yeah it was
just almost coworker hey cold out huh
what it's cold out huh oh yeah like that
kind of stuff yeah yeah gotta get there
a little bit but it my parents would I
hope they never hear this but they would
do a thing where my dad especially would
do a thing where he would uh he knew how
to cut you down right to the Bone and so
after a while you're like I'm not even
going to interact with this guy cuz he
he can get you so well one time we were
at a like a Thanksgiving some kind of
family of event and all the cousins are
there and I remember I was holding Court
I was a young boy finding my comedic
legs in this weird tumultuous sea we
call a family and I was killing and um
my dad comes up when he goes what are
you holding court and I was like ah and
I felt like I was this big I just shrunk
down he just nailed it cuz in my head
I'm like I'm holding CT look at me I got
the whole room and he goes what are you
what are you holding cord here like who
the hell do you think you are and I was
like he's right I shouldn't be holding C
who the fuck am I I'm nobody so uh stuff
like that was he aware of that you think
he was he wasn't I don't think he was
but do do you give um parents a pass
when they're unaware of the destructive
like is it better when they're unaware
because it seems like that's the way
that's true that's way the way parents
often fail is they're not intentionally
malevolent MH they're just like Clueless
yeah it's a Bittersweet thing cuz you're
like well okay he's not malicious he's
not trying to hurt me but
also he doesn't know he hurt me I I
don't know it's it's tough cuz if he was
trying to hurt you I guess that would be
worse so you're the fully baked Mark
Norman cake at this point uh what yeah
it's a shitty cake do you uh fruit salad
you know the sense of self-worth you
mentioned I think in your comedy there's
a sense like you hate yourself you think
when I listen I didn't know if that came
through shit I was trying to hide that
part God damn it I mean when you you
like in the privacy of your
mind are you able to love yourself or is
it mostly
self-hate geez what happened to this
podcast I didn't know I was on Mr or Dr
Phil Dr Phil I thought we were GNA talk
about engineering and and climate change
and Rockets uh we'll get there okay
starts with love goes to Rockets all
right I like that I like that's a
t-shirt
um I mean like what's question
sorry do I feel love no no like I myself
yeah yeah yeah so are you
um like this engine of being
self-critical of just being constantly
anxious about how the world perceives
you these kinds of things is this
something that you just go to for for
comedy or is this who you are as a human
being I think I I don't want to explore
it I think I get around it you know I
tap dance around it but I get it out a
little with my ACT maybe CU I I can't do
it I'm not doing it in real life so I'll
get out this uh no love not loving
myself I don't know who wants to love
themsel everybody always like you got to
love yourself and then when you meet
somebody who does love yourself you're
like I fucking hate this guy don't you
hate the guy who's upset I'm great I'm
awesome life is good like ah this guy
sucks I'd rather an insecure guy so
maybe I want to stay insecure maybe I
don't want to find this love for myself
well okay so self love like just
appreciating who you are or like
appreciating the moment of being
grateful doesn't have to express Itself
by the guy saying I'm awesome true it's
more just like humility just like
walking calmly through the world and
just being grateful to be alive that
kind of thing and just good and like
being appreciative of all the
accomplishments you made so far I say
all this because mostly I'm extremely
self-critical in everything I do and
so uh and I kind of enjoy it I think
it's a nice little engine that it makes
it fun it makes life fun because it's
like if if you hate everything you
do like you've done in the past that
gives you like all right we can do
better yes but that's the key is making
it s critical always trying to get
better I could change this I could tweak
this I can improve this when you just go
I hate that I do this I suck you just
shut down so that's the key is is always
being productive with the uh with the
criticism yeah and the basics of life
I'm just like grateful for it to be
alive that's nice to be couple like
couple that with uh two leg criticism
skin the hairline the hog the muscles
the the the the world you got a good
brain on you I mean you're you're lucky
you're in the top you know most people
are fat as shit at Burger King right now
hitting their kids yeah you're in a in a
rata hotel sitting with the you know a
low-level comedian for the record I ate
McDonald's last night oh all right well
you're human well just so you know this
is not me defending I'm not sponsored by
McDonald's but I mostly eat meat and
there's nothing wrong with with the the
beef they have it's actually one of the
easiest ways late at night I think it's
horse I don't know if it's actually it's
actually rats yeah you're right but hey
it's just meat I'm a meat guy myself uh
they say in 20 years we're going to look
back and go H can you believe people ate
meat it's somebody like
slavery yeah there's some ethical
difficult things with uh factory farming
yeah so let's ride it out now while we
still got
it and now it's on
record Tom weights says something about
New York you like Tom weights I think
he's underrated I think he's got great
he's got a great uh he's great at quips
and quotes he's check him out on on
YouTube he's got some montages and Super
Cuts of him being hilarious what does he
say about
um I'd rather have a bottle in front of
me than a frontal of bottomy that was
the one that was the one that sold me I
was like this guy's awesome yeah but his
music is he's just a genius musician
yeah anyway he was talking about New
York and I was walking around these I'm
in New York right now we're in New York
right now it's still a magical City to
me a lot of people are quite cynical
about it about the state of things
but not not like Michael mice like a lot
of friends of mine they're just a lot of
folks I mean San Francisco New York
there's something about the pandemic
where people have become quite cynical
about the place they are and they tried
to escape it's interesting I mean
they're asking some difficult questions
about what they are in life they're
having like a self-imposed midlife
crisis is is is good I think for
everybody to go through this process but
I think I hope New York
reemerges it will as the flourishing
place for the weirdos anyway the Tom
Wade said New York of course is to be in
Endless surreal
situations where a $50,000 gunmetal
Mercedes pulls up in a puddle of blood
and out steps a 25 karat blond with a $2
wristwatch and he goes he keeps going on
so like it's like um that's like bars
he's like a rapper yeah yeah he's good
um but basically just the absurdity of
it all lots of money lots of
weirdos uh degenerates and dreamers and
the whole the whole mix of it do you
think um you think that's an accurate
description of what New York is today
like is there still place for the
weirdos and just the interesting
artists the the edgy The Comedians the
the Creator
the the the the entrepreneurs like as
opposed to like Wall Street as opposed
to like Rich folk and then like hopeless
folk yeah I think it's definitely
changed a lot there's a there's a tiny
corner for us weirdo artists New York
used to be where you went to make it as
a painter or whatever a comedian or a
singer and there were all these Dives
and shit boxes and all these places you
could go and now there's now it's more
pink berries and Subway sandwiches and
Chase Banks so it's definitely lost a
lot of its uh Creative Edge it's just
money money keeps coming in and now you
see all these comedians move to
Nashville Austin Denver whatever so uh
it doesn't have the the power it used to
have of like you got to be here if you
want to make it that's definitely gone
uh so that hurt the city a lot the city
is is way more soulless when I moved
here in ' 07 I mean not only did I get
mugged three times in the first year but
it was a hub of like it felt like things
were happening here you know it was it
was an energy it was electricity and we
still have the electricity but it's also
maybe just because there's Time Square
there's Soho there's uh Wall Street so
we got the Staples but there is a little
bit of that it's almost like a marriage
like yeah we're in love but it it's not
as passionate as it once was that's how
I would equate New York what gives you
hope you're pretty hopeful about it
though I'm hopeful just because I know
it's magical and I and I think it has to
be I mean it's the epicenter of America
like this is where the immigrants came
and this is where the stock market is
and the entertainment industry a lot of
it is here so I think it it's it's G to
happen but it all something like the
bottom has to fall out and then people
have to move back here and all that so
something the corporations are kind of
fucking us they're just buying
everything well that's true for
everything that's true for it's true for
Austin probably as well people are just
buying out land and all that kind of
stuff you always hear a Hemingway and do
Le and all these guys went to Paris in
the 20s or whatever that was yeah I get
it now I used be like why these guys go
to Paris you know why are these artists
and now I get it because it's like it's
Freer there that's why Austin became
like that Paris where everybody's like I
got to get out of La I'm going there and
uh but we came back from that you know
the 70s were wild and 90s were cool so
maybe it'll come back might just take a
decade well there's always that's how
stories are told there's always pockets
of like Paris within New York right of
there's just an opportunity to let your
weird flourish is there in New York I'm
sure they I mean
um it's there you got to find it before
it was front and center what's your
favorite thing about New York like what
what kind of things just like I mean how
long as it's pod I could go on it's just
it's too much to to put into one hour we
got other questions but I love that one
neighborhood is wildly different than
the next I'm in Little Italy and then
you take four steps now I'm in Chinatown
I mean and then the history there and
then the stories and the food and the
culture and all that and then you go 10
feet over here now you're in Brooklyn
and this is insane it's the whole
another world and it's it's almost like
a little America in
one you know uh City and it's great and
uh just the fact that they pulled it off
like Fifth Avenue goes way up and you're
like there's a Billionaire's house next
to a hobo and then this is a black guy
who's who's fighting with a Cuban guy
and an Asian guy is uh trying to get in
the middle of them and the cabbies from
uh the Middle East and there's so many
beautiful women here and there's so many
Brilliant Minds here and and the pace is
great it keeps people moving I mean it
just you can't beat it I mean the city
will fuck you in the ass too don't get
me wrong you land at JFK and you're like
oh God I got mugged my uh my Uber driver
called me a homo I stepped in and human
shit where the fuck am I um so yeah it's
it's bad news but that bad news it's
almost like the bullying it kills you in
a weird way but it makes you stronger
you build more layers and layers and
layers that's why some new guy some hay
seed from Milwaukee shows up you've been
here 10 years and you go let me let me
help you out because you're you you got
ajust you're going to get your ass
kicked for like six months but I know
the rope's a little and uh I think you
need a little that if the treadmill is
not on
you're not going to run New York the
treadmills on so it just makes you run
and it makes you better and look it
wears on you you probably lose 10 years
of your life living in New York versus
uh you know Indianapolis but it's a you
know it's a better life have you seen
25th
hour been a while um Spike Le joint yeah
Spike Le joint I mean uh at Norton
there's a there's a whole like monologue
there about New York oh that's right
they're talking
about just he he has a like a mix it's
there's like Melancholy music I think or
just a Melancholy feel to the whole
thing but there's an anger and a disgust
with the city but through the anger and
the disgust comes out like a a love for
the city same with was taxi driver in
New York oh yeah SC c yeah so like that
there's something about what is that
what is that that that uh grit of the
city that like pushes you down well
that's the beauty of the city is it's
this tribe
human nature like the sex shops and fist
fights and racism and all tension but
yet it's the epicenter of technology and
finance and sophistication on Fifth
Avenue so you get that ju Bish it's kind
of like in Boston you go to Boston they
got MIT they got Harvard they got all
this shit and then they got the
fisherman the blue collar douchebags the
Irish guys the immigrants you know and
you get that mix of like insanely smart
with Wicked piss and these these two
worlds and that's that's a good thing
it's like when a black guy fucks an
Asian lady that's a good-look kid you
get a mix you know we're mixing two
totally different things are coming
together and it makes it it's like
peanut butter and chocolate peanut
butter and chocolate I've never tried
that what peanut butter maybe I have
about talking about Reese's man like
Reese's yeah and yeah yeah oh it's the
best candy
yeah without the fakeness of La without
the without the kind of um um with the
facade yeah la is
tough what's the difference between LA
comedy and New York comedy
too I think one place you kind of go to
make it and be discovered and be loved
and one place you go you can you can get
all that in New York too but I think in
New York it's more of a a school a boot
camp of Comedy let's make great comedy
let's make original comedy let's watch
the other guys and gals who are at the
show at the clubs and learn from them
and try to hang out with them and and
absorb some of them and in La it's like
when am I on I'm next get out of my way
I'm the star here I'm a bigger star than
you oh this guy's actually a big star I
gotta outwork you know it's a lot of
that instead of like damn that was funny
I gotta be that funny damn I wish I had
a joke and look I don't want to speak
for La Comics because there you know
Bill Burr Anthony jck the brilliant La
comic but they all cut their teeth in
New York just saying then they moved to
LA it's a good point Ali Wong all these
people Killer Comics but New York
started New York moved to New York there
is something about Comics just stay in
New York for a long time though like
Dave AEL ah you know about Dave yeah
yeah he wants to do this podast he does
yeah I'm a huge fan of David but it's
like he almost like he doesn't want to
make it I don't know I mean you probably
know him but like it feels like you
just maybe it's romanticizing it but
you're you're like you almost just love
the art of comedy of like becoming
funnier crafting the jokes becoming
funnier than the other Comics like
competing with each other kind of thing
not over like money or fame or any of
that just just purely The Comedy of it
totally that's Dave that's him in a nut
he's like that guy in the movies in the
80s action movies where they're like
they go up to a a Creek in Montana and
some guy's living in a cabin and he's
sharpening a stick and they go the
Russians are coming they're invading we
need you you're the best Commando and
he's like like I gave that up man I'm
done with that lifestyle they're like
but you're the best we need you and he
has to suit up eventually you know he
looks at a picture of his dead wife and
he goes fuck it I'm going and then they
you know fight the rookies but uh he's
that guy he just is gifted he's like got
a gift from Allah and he's the best yeah
a lot of comics give him props it's
always surprising to me I didn't CU
surprising to me because he hasn't
really made it like big he he did in the
90s he was huge he had his own TV show
he was the yeah yeah that show was that
show was awesome but I mean like as big
as I think he deserves to be so like
well that's art the mainstream shit is
always the worst it's like McDonald's
versus some hole in the wall I know I'm
shitting on McDonald's again but it's
good and you know certain Comics we can
name are good but the the delicacy is
going to be
less talked about and less uh household
Namy than than the
mainstream hacky shit yeah it's funny
because he hasn't uh I think he was on
uh Joe rugan show once maybe yeah once
or twice and and he was with somebody
else um Jeff Ross yeah he might he might
have Jeff Ross oh yeah cuz they did that
like two mics thing whatever mics yeah
yeah um but he's the quickest guy
there's no one funnier yeah yeah yeah
him and uh you you're super quick your
appearance on recent appearance on Rog
was hilarious oh thanks just so fast
you're on with
Arian Shen Gillis Shen Gillis yeah that
was fun we're going back in January I
don't know when this comes out this is
never come
out neither will
you we're having fun yep all right so
what does it feel like um to bomb in
standup comedy like to fail maybe the
psychology of it first like just take me
through it cuz we're talking about being
uh outnumbered in a fight just being
beat up very
similar uh by the way this is like a no
eye contact off yeah you know both
uncomfortable it's great it's kind of
nice to be with my
people um but yeah you sh a paper to
look at or I'm going I got a good sweet
spot right there yes yeah it's a it's a
nightmare but it's part of it you know
it's it's it's the it's the validation
too is the worst part like cuz you know
whenever you do comedy and kill you can
be a great comic but even David tell
these brilliant guys they feel like
they're getting you feel like you're
getting away with something I don't have
a day job I'm telling jokes for a liit
I'm talking about my dick up here and
they're fucking loving me and they call
me a genius and all this I'm talking
about my sack you know and uh and it's
great it makes people happy and it's
funny but uh that bombing when you bomb
you go your first thought is like yeah
you're right at first you're like fuck
you gu what you don't like this shit and
then you just start going in you're like
n maybe it isn't that good maybe they're
right I do suck I knew I sucked should
become a mailman you know and it stinks
and it feel you feel alone and you feel
like you wasted their time and then
you're like what was I thinking I could
be a comedian what the fuck who am I you
know Eddie Murphy what am I doing here
so uh it's a lot of just spiraling out
of horrible thoughts but I also love
that it hurts so bad bombing fucking
hurts because now now everybody doesn't
do it I think a lot more people could do
comedy probably and figure it out but
the bombing is so brutal that it keeps
uh one time I went to Minneapolis I was
like this is a great City I me sun and
shine why isn't this city like packed
and they're like because the winners are
so bad and we love it because it keeps
everybody out and I feel like the same
about comedy the bombs are so brutal
I've had bombs where I'm in I'm in bed
I'm just staring at the ceiling like
what the fuck was that like you have
PTSD I bombed at an arena once 20,000
people I did 30 minutes to silence I so
it's not just like one joke fails it's
like oh yeah they start piling on like
it's recoverable yes and one joke
failing is very common like a lot of
audience don't even notice like that
bomb because you get you know you got so
many jokes in a row you can sandwich a
good one then a bad one then a good one
but when you bomb it's almost like they
chose we don't like you nothing you say
will redeem yourself and uh it's hard to
get out of it's like being pulled down
by your hair you can't get back I can't
win this fight no matter what can you
like get him back by acknowledging like
the in the room that like that helps but
there're still going to go that was
funny when he made fun of it but he
sucks he still sucks he still sucks
that's the worst part you're going no
this is good you guys just don't like me
just because you don't like me doesn't
mean I'm bad yeah I I like going to open
mics a lot just just listening
because first of all I think the
audience in Open Mic at least the ones
I've been to is U mostly I guess other
comedians it it or like at least people
who don't seem to want to laugh at
anything and so I just love it cuz it's
human nature and perseverance at its
best the here's comedians like
clearly uh this is mostly in Austin they
have a dream like why would you get up
there right like maybe some weird you
know New Year's resolution bullshit but
for the most part it's people who want
to be comedian like a lot of the open
micers are people who clearly have done
this for quite a long time already like
at least a year or two maybe five years
and they're often not very funny
and
um the just bombing in front of an
audience of like 20 where they're just
sitting there like almost like mocking
them with their eyes or maybe and I
don't know and they still push through
they still they still like as if they're
doing an arena and everybody's laughing
they still they still got that energy
trying almost like to an
audience that doesn't exist
like an audience of their dreams cuz I
guess you have to do that to keep the
energy of the ACT going and it's just so
beautiful to watch wow them try it it's
uh and also the what happens Open Mic I
don't know five minutes whatever they do
they you know walk off and that walk
back you know off stage Nightmare and
like you can't what who do they look at
like what do you look do you make eye
contact with people do you you look at
your phone you look at your feet you you
just zone out you kind
of you kind of go white you know you
just hear white noise and go out it's
it's
tough but you got it you need a little a
a little delusion to be a comedian to
get into it it takes a little bit of
delusion like you think you can do this
you know you got 10 years ahead of you
of hell and you're up for this and you
know most Comics we see a horrible crowd
and we see our friend bomb and we go
yeah he's bombing but I'll get him I'll
get him and then you you don't get them
but that's that's human nature too is
like I they don't like him but they'll
like me and you need a little of that to
keep going as a comedian but you don't
want too much delusion because then
you're a psycho but you need a little
well the psycho could be good for a
comedy that's true too lot of psychos I
mentioned to you offline um that I
talked to Elon and we talked about doing
standup that he's thinking maybe do a
few minutes of stand up saying if you
need a coach Elon I got
you uh well maybe you should move to
Austin to coaching fulltime ah hopefully
you can fly him in
so what what advice would you give to
somebody who um who wants to try to do
five minutes like the early
steps of uh trying to go to an open mic
and say something funny well that's the
irony of Comedy is I don't know if it's
irony but it's like the beginning is the
hardest part usually the beginning is
the easy part hey I'm playing this level
of Mario I start I jump over one Koopa
Troopa whatever and then the end is like
Jesus Christ I got 30 guys coming at me
comedy is the opposite the beginning is
like it's a gauntlet it's just obstacles
and it's like you said open mics you I
watch these famous comedians on Netflix
and you go this would all bomb an open
mic they're killing in you know Radio
City those bombing it open mik that's
the weird part so it's almost you have
to go through hell just to get to the
the promised land and uh I would say
rehearse the shit out of it because
you're going to get frazzled up there
everybody thinks oh this this is good
material but you also forget about the
other part of delivering it having
confidence being likable having timing
having a Cadence figuring out who you
are figure out what the audience thinks
you are or how they perceive you because
you can go up there and say all this but
they go why is the guy he's clearly gay
why is he acting like he's not gay you
know that's all they now they're not
listening to the joke so like you got to
know how you look and uh it's just
repetition repetition and bombing is not
failure that's what you got to remember
I mean look if you if you do a a killer
hour and then you take it to Netflix and
bomb you fucked up but bombing is not
failure it's just data it's going ah
okay I gotta re retool that that didn't
work something wrong there they I missed
a word there so you got to treat the uh
the ACT almost like uh like uh like
ingredients in a in a in a cooking in a
dish you know like oh that I put too
many eggs in take an egg out you got to
treat it like that and look when you
pull a a bad cake out of an oven you go
I fucked up but it doesn't hurt your
feelings but when you bomb and fuck up
it hurts your feelings so you got to
factor that in too your feelings going
to be hurt and just almost be a robot
and just keep going towards that open
mic you know how scary an open mic is
bombing sucks but bombing in front of
other comedians is way worse because
they know what just happened and they
could have saved you and they didn't so
it's way worse and that they're going to
be your quote unquote friends for this
for this journey yeah no these are evil
people Twisted fucked up hurt people can
you tell like in those early days let's
just talk about that like at the open
mic level that a joke is going to be
good on paper like I I'll give you my
experience cuz
uh um maybe you can be my coach in this
particular moment so uh Like Larry
Nasser all
right that's fun huh joking everybody I
hope nobody takes it seriously uh
there's I now have an amazing team of uh
of folks who help me with editing and
they're now currently sweating watch
this you got to leave that one in that
was quick yeah that's pretty good I'll
eat that one that was
good all right
so uh you know uh going in front of an
audience just even to give a lecture
terrifies me uh which which I've done
but uh Open Mic I mean that to me
perhaps that's why I like going to open
mics and listening is because I just it
terrifies me so much that idea yeah of
going up there and bombing I mean it's
scary and to do even like one minute to
be honest is scary and five minutes I'm
also watched enough open mics to realize
that five minutes is a long time I mean
depends on your comedy but if you're
doing fast stuff five minutes is a
really long time oh it's eternity um I
guess it was a long
story too is a long time because if the
story is not work you're building up to
something if the story is going to fail
you just spent all that time telling the
story that completely went flat
completely got nothing I guess if you
have a series of jokes you can at least
try to recover and like do the Mitch
Hedberg thing where like all right I'll
cross that
off uh well I'm able to like I've tried
to write a few things and I'm able to
tell that it's really
bad well that's better than most most
people's egos kick in they go no this is
good no see I'm able to introspect that
like it seems funny I mean I guess the
thing I'm looking for is original like
there's easy stuff that you think it's
funny but to me originality is the thing
you should be looking for because then
because then that's what's actually
becomes funny like or rather if it's
original even if it bombs that feels
like more a beautiful art creation that
you did like at least you swung for it
like you did something unique cuz there
like even with Open Mic your first 5
minutes there's so many just go to
enough open mics you'll hear like all
the there's like a list of jokes that
you can just go to first of all you can
make fun of the fact that you're an open
mic that you're like doing this for the
first time and so on you could do a lot
of stuff where you make fun of your
appearance in some way and so on but
like yeah you could do that you know
that takes actually that's way harder
than people real Iz to do it in an
original way yes to to present who you
are as a
person very quickly enough to then put
that person down in front of everybody
else so you have to reveal the H just
like that because they go he knows what
we're thinking yeah exactly um but do it
again in an original way and so like
when I'm trying to write stuff uh when
not that I've tried long it's like 30
minutes but as enough to see like oh
shit the to write something original is
really difficult it is what do you you
got a bit anything no you didn't write
any one line or anything for this no
well just in general ever in your life
ever written a joke oh yeah yeah yeah
yeah yeah oh okay no but I don't have
anything in my mind popped up so the the
the jokes that I've written have more to
like for some reason my mind goes to
like dark places so you know like and
not actually dark in the Mark Norman
dark because you go really dark to where
it's like almost absurd yes my natural
inclination is to go to like a dark
historical like place like Hitler and
Stalin yeah and almost so go to that
place and
then talk about something absurd there
mhm so like don't go like
um like all the way I don't know don't
want to give examples because it'll be
clipped but the but the Mark Norman
style look it up he has a special on his
YouTube uh that kind I I want to almost
explore the dark aspects of human nature
more kind of um connected to actual
historical figures that's the that's the
inclination like uh I don't know
Nature's metal the the Instagram channel
that that explores like the darkness of
nature like like something there uh that
see that's good that you already know
that you've kind of gotten to the core
of your comedy already and that that's
interesting that's a step ahead yeah I
can hear I with most things that I do in
life I can like hear the music from a
distance like in myself like okay if you
have anything this is the direction
it'll be without actually knowing
exactly all the steps and that's a nice
motivation to be like all right well if
you do this for a long time maybe you'll
have a chance to get there right but you
have to I that that's where the it's a
feature to be super self-critical I
think yes but then that's why it's
fucking terrifying to walk up to a stage
stand there and probably forget
everything yeah that's the other part
nobody thinks about just goes right out
of your head you go fight or flight it's
ugly my my first years were horrific
bombing horrific stammering horrific not
remembering the punchline like you got
maybe you got a a setup going and
they're kind of on board and you're like
ah how that I can't I camer how it goes
and you just hate yourself it's it's a
nightmare but you've already kind of
maybe if you haven't done standup or
whatever but you kind of know your voice
and that's yeah that's pretty Advanced
so you're not trying to be somebody else
I guess yeah just for having done like
podcast and lecture and so that helps
you I've embarrassed I've already done
some of the work of the stand-ups do
which is embarrass yourself in front of
others for prolonged periods of time yes
yeah so I've done that without actually
developing the funny right right but
maybe the funny just is not that
difficult to develop um no it's super
difficult of course but I mean maybe the
essential work of a standup comedian is
just the embarrassment of like finding
who you are yeah that's a part of it for
sure you know in the beginning you're
like water bottle what's funny about
water bottle I'm a funny guy I can make
this funny but that ain't that's not it
you know it's it's your shit your shit
like your dark stuff for me I tend to
gravitate towards dark but in a weird
way where you know people say like hey
don't objectify women but then they go
Caitlyn Jenner's beautiful
and you're like well wait I know
something's off here why can you
objectify her but not the supermodel so
what's going on there and I like to play
with that so I have this joke where I
say uh Caitlyn
Jenner oh oh women go Caitlin Jenner's
beautiful beautiful woman I go well you
look like her and they go fuck you and
you're like there's a lot of Truth there
but I like exploring that kind of oh
you're trying to get one over on me or
you're lying to yourself or what are we
doing here and I like I like that kind
of
Comedy I don't see color well I'm black
no you're not ah you know that's fun cuz
you're you're
lying uh yeah okay so like big- time
comedians it's just yourself don't like
to think of yourself in this way but
here we go yeah this is like where you
over philos philosophize comedy but yeah
definitely it seems like
comedians don't say important nothing
worse than a thinks they're important
yeah so I was going there I was trying
to find as I was trying to say these
words I realized how cliche it is and
how uninteresting it is so I'm going to
just but there is something uh I'm
worried this whole thing is
uninteresting I'm like who cares about
comedy there's like six comics on the
planet that nobody cares okay this is I
trust you in the in the piloty you know
what you're doing you got you got
listeners they've tuned out long ago oh
we get Dan Carlin on here huh is he
around yeah yeah which going back and
forth on Twitter just now I'm a huge fan
he was on here before he'll be back
great I've been actually really uh
trying to volunteer myself aggressively
with Dan Carlin for for like a Russian
episode where I could speak Russian I
there there's there's certain documents
same I talked with ja about this too
certain
things I mean I just love the challenge
of bringing Russian documents that I can
read in Russian and then can translate
and can try to capture the uh the depth
of the writing in um in the Russian
language and communicate to an American
audience so much is lost and translation
like there's so much pain and poetry in
the Russian language it's just connected
to the culture every language not every
language but many languages are uniquely
able to capture the culture of the
people I mean in some way there the
representation of the culture of the
people and so Russian is definitely that
like represents the full history and
culture of the 20th century with all the
atrocities all the all the broken
promises all those kinds of things Norm
says Uh Russian literature is it's the
most tapped into human existence than
anything else uh Norm McDonald yeah big
big Russian literature guy dooi all that
shit it's funny that there is a gap with
comedians too there's a culture of
Russian comedy uh like standup comedians
that are totally yeah yeah I don't know
these Russians I mean uh I don't know
today I mean more from the ' 80s and
'90s and so there was a yak off that's
all I know that's not so there's like of
course that's that's I've never seen
that offended no no no it's not offend
there's a different
uh uh there's there's a there's like the
Kennison and the there's the edgy is
that
Russian what what do you mean wait I
thought you said there was Russian
Comics yeah Russian com I mean I'm
comparing I'm I'm giving you I'm giving
you like a style a Darkness uh like
that's the kind the people that kind of
challenge uh they they give again this
is to how important comedians are is
they give a voice to people where in the
Soviet Union you really can't like
express your opposition to the
government and so comedians are
exceptionally important there for just
just I don't know channeling the anger
even when sometimes it's not act
opposition to the government they're
just channeling the anger the
frustration with the absurdity of life
like you know when there's a shortage of
food shortage of jobs the the the
absurdity of the bureaucracy like the a
topheavy government just all of that can
only sometimes be expressed with like
dark absurd humor and that actually why
there's a culture of that kind of humor
you know you gather on the table with
VOD
yeah and all you can do is just talk
shit and just be offensive say horrible
shit ball bust I mean scho I make school
shooting jokes and people go how do you
do that I'm like well maybe that's how I
deal with it yeah you know like how come
I gota I
gotta empathize the way you do maybe
we're
different all right so now let's skip
the whole Open Mic thing and crafting
jokes oh yeah that's tough carak said
one day I will find the right words and
they will be
simple when do you know the joke is done
it's perfect you're H somebody that does
like really sharp like
Fast uh jokes well oh thanks so like
there there's somebody I don't know I
don't know who you see yourself in the
same school as like had you're you're
you're darker and faster than hbg I
think in terms of like just I don't know
the turns you take it very thanks I
appreciate it I think I got some nor
McDonald maybe that's right you know
little obviously Norm but uh Chris Rock
was huge for me Chris Ro old like 90s
Chris Rock was like I didn't know you
could do jokes like that I always love
George Carlin and Groucho Marx and Bill
Murray there's so many different types
of Comedy but uh when I saw the bigger
and Blacker bring the pain I was like oh
my God this like it hit me so that was
big and then Norm's just like the
funniest guy on the planet it so him him
being the smartest guy in the room but
acting dumb was great so uh yeah Chris
Rock has that way of cutting to the the
bullshit which I I mentioned earlier I
like that cutting through the bullshit
kind of style of Comedy becau